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takes place in the emperor's throne room, anything goes.

Mace wins, but not easily.

Mace.

Mace

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mace wins, but not easily. Mace wins in a lightsaber duel but sadly loses in a force fight

Mace would win in a all-out fight IMO.

1. sabers
2. force
3. all out

1- Windu, obviously
2- Maybe a draw
3- Mace kicks vader's ass

Originally posted by alterangel
1. sabers
2. force
3. all out 1. Mace
2. Vader
3. Mace (the closest)

Originally posted by kamhal
1- Windu, obviously
Of course
Originally posted by kamhal

2- Maybe a draw
3- Mace kicks vader's ass Hell no, vader > mace in the force, this can be clearly seen.

In an all out fight? It depends, If vader resorts to the force fast enough, he wins

The same way he did against Luke? lol...

Originally posted by kamhal
The same way he did against Luke? lol... Uh yes for a lightsaber duel. Post DE luke stated that vader could have easily killed him all along save for the fact that vader was holding back.

Qed

Then, maybe how he did against maul?

1.Mace
2.Vader
3.Vader

Originally posted by kamhal
Then, maybe how he did against maul? He didnt use the force, so shut up. force = vaders strength

You cant debate and you never will

Originally posted by alterangel
1. sabers
2. force
3. all out


Mace wins all three.

Originally posted by Manslayer
He didnt use the force, so shut up. force = vaders strength

You cant debate and you never will

Suck my circular sea biscuits, noob.



Mace was Yoda's equal and we see him ripping out tanks in the Clone Wars cartoons and using his fists punching through tanks. I'm preety sure he used the force to assist his punch.

I would say

1.Mace
2.Draw
3.Mace

Originally posted by Spidervlad
Suck my circular sea biscuits, noob.

LOL!

hysterical




And Vader didn't use the Force against Maul, so prove that he would against Mace.

Originally posted by Spidervlad
Suck my circular sea biscuits, noob. Your the noob you moron, your revan > sidious theory is hilarious. Go read comics and study the sources before you attempt to come here and splatter your bullshit


Originally posted by Spidervlad

Mace was Yoda's equal and we see him ripping out tanks in the Clone Wars cartoons and using his fists punching through tanks. I'm preety sure he used the force to assist his punch.
Lol, vader has destroyed a tank the size of an AT-AT, that video has been posted here by esb-1138 i think. Vader could destroy an entire medical room by just letting his emotions out and how is punching tanks relevant to combat? Because vader has greater physical strength than mace and if mace can enhance his strength with the force, so can vader.

Oh how bout vader being able to shake buildings down with the force as anakin skywalker and as darth vader in Eaw?

Dont make me laugh spidervlad, mace was stated to be 2nd to yoda, not equal with yoda

Originally posted by Spidervlad

I would say

1.Mace
2.Draw
3.Mace Noob, mace owns him in saber combat and loses the other 2


Originally posted by darthsith19

And Vader didn't use the Force against Maul, so prove that he would against Mace. The intellectual speaks at last. Zomg sidous didnt use the force against mace during the duel until he lost his saber so that means he wouldnt use the force against luke and yoda.

Terrific analogy DS you never ever fail to amuse me
, vader has used the force on several other jedi if you bother to recall which you dont due to your uber logic.

Prove that he wouldnt use the force against mace knowing that he would get owned if he attempted to fight mace in a saber duel

Wow, an insult, you must be a big man!


Big difference - once Sidious lost with a blade, he used the Force. Once Vader lost with a blade, he kept trying with a blade and got lucky.


Wow, what an overinflated ego you have.


For the same reason he wouldn't use it against Maul - overconfidence, foolishness, whatever it is, except he won't get lucky against Mace like he did against Maul, and Mace is stronger than Maul is.



Still waiting for proof that he will use the Force against Mace.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Wow, an insult, you must be a big man! Not an insult when its a fact

Originally posted by darthsith19

Big difference - once Sidious lost with a blade, he used the Force. Once Vader lost with a blade, he kept trying with a blade and got lucky. RODV and the fight with the dark lady disproves that. Oh and he too used the force against a jedi during the purge. That pretty much disproves your speculation

Vader dropped his blade when he underestimated the dark lady and guess what? He used the force!

Your point falls

Originally posted by darthsith19

Wow, what an overinflated ego you have.
Says the one who cannot debate nor back up his claims
Originally posted by darthsith19

For the same reason he wouldn't use it against Maul - overconfidence, foolishness, whatever it is, except he won't get lucky against Mace like he did against Maul, and Mace is stronger than Maul is.
Uh huh. So because vader didnt use the force against maul means he is never going to use it against anybody? Perfect analogy friend. Seems i have answered the question i asked myself: why does no one take you seriously?

Obviously anakin fought along side mace during the clone wars, he knows the danger of vaapad and shatter point, he knows that if he were to face mace windu 1v1 in a lightsaber duel and he would get owned so because he is smart and has demonstrated it to use several times, he will use the force. proof? Rodv, jedi puege, dark lady, common sense,

Your point falls

For maul, it is a different case, Did he know mauls fighting style at all? He has never seen him fight, he only saw maul and the 2 jedi ignite their sabers. And even IF he did saw the entire duel, he wouldnt be able to register his opponents moves because he was not yet a jedi

Originally posted by darthsith19

Still waiting for proof that he will use the Force against Mace. Im still waiting for concrete proof he will not use the force against mace seeing that he has used the force on several other force users. Your point falls

Originally posted by Manslayer
Lol, vader has destroyed a tank the size of an AT-AT, that video has been posted here by esb-1138 i think. Vader could destroy an entire medical room by just letting his emotions out and how is punching tanks relevant to combat? Because vader has greater physical strength than mace and if mace can enhance his strength with the force, so can vader.

Oh how bout vader being able to shake buildings down with the force as anakin skywalker and as darth vader in Eaw?That's gameplay from Empire At War, moron. I could have Han Solo shoot down a stationary AT-AT with his blaster in the video game. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke could team up to fight Vadr and the Emperor. I could make pretty much whatever I want happen in the game - that make it canon? No.

Seriously, think.

Who the hell are you to call anyone else a noob? And Mace's display of telekinesis in Shatterpoint is well beyond anything Vader has ever canonically displayed. Mace owns Vader in a duel, wins a moderately difficult battle in an all-out fight, and may or may not win a very hard Force competition.


This makes no sense at all, but good job.

Against several lesser Jedi that any SW great could beat, yeah.

He doesn't have to prove a negative.

I don't really see Mace winning in a force fight against a Vader who has trained under Sidious for the past 20 years and mastered the dark side to a very high magnitutde. Then again, Mace does have Vaapad which was good enough to beat Sidious.It's possible that Vader has certain techniques that could get through Mace's defenses, but I'm not too sure what he possesses in his arsenal as of ANH. I'm sure there are sourcebooks that list this. However, in a saber fight, Mace would wtfpwn Vader.

I'd lean more towards Vader in a Force battle simply because he's a pretty strong Sith Lord, and so is obviously going to have more offensive powers at his arsenal than Mace.

Wow, another insult! Alright, I give up, you win!



When did he use the Force against the Dark Woman? I seem to remember him having his blade the entire time (and in the end, cutting down a tree). Yes, he did use the Force to help the tree fall over quickly, but he first used his saber to weaken the tree's support.

True, he did use the Force against Roan Shryne.


Says the one who debates with insults and when asked for proof, replies saying he wants proof of the opposite.


Since when has Roan Shryne been several Force Users?

Hey, big ******, what about reading a bit?

Answer:


I also remind to see, in this same game, Mara Jade destroying a tower with a blaster...



Well, maybe that's why windu deflected sidious' lightning back to win and completly melted his face. Great example...

So, you are still to prove that vader>windu in the force. Also, i dare you to prove me that windu had less then 80% from sidious potential. By the way, don't forget to tell us who the half machine sith will beat windu when he beat maul with simple luck, lost to padawan skywalker (holding back or not, he canonly lost, and if Luke had struck him down, Vader would be dead), had a draw with boba fett (windu killed jango quite quickly and easily) and is quite weaker then sidious in the force and even more with his saber, the same sith windu beat...



You see, when someone is this bias for a character, a simple feat is greatly enhanced and multiplied to incredible (and imaginary) levels...

Originally posted by kamhal
Hey, big ******, what about reading a bit?
How bout learning to stfu an debate?
Answer:

Originally posted by kamhal

I also remind to see, in this same game, Mara Jade destroying a tower with a blaster... I concede that point as i took it from gameplay.


Originally posted by kamhal

Well, maybe that's why windu deflected sidious' lightning back to win and completly melted his face. Great example... When it was too late yes
Originally posted by kamhal

So, you are still to prove that vader>windu in the force.
If vader strikes with force crush first and if macedoesnt put up his defence in time
Originally posted by kamhal

Also, i dare you to prove me that windu had less then 80% from sidious potential. By the way, don't forget to tell us who the half machine sith will beat windu when he beat maul with simple luck,

Simple luck in a Lightsaber duel moron, not with the Force
Originally posted by kamhal

lost to padawan skywalker (holding back or not, he canonly lost, and if Luke had struck him down, Vader would be dead), had a draw with boba fett (windu killed jango quite quickly and easily) and is quite weaker then sidious in the force and even more with his saber, the same sith windu beat...
Luek himself stated that vader could have easily killed him and that was a post DE luke stating that vader was holding back.

You fail again noobhal,

Originally posted by kamhal

You see, when someone is this bias for a character, a simple feat is greatly enhanced and multiplied to incredible (and imaginary) levels... Um imaginary? No. I tried using stuff from gameplay. Oh and about being bias iv seen you being really bias towards revan, You yourself tried using debatable quotes to put revan above exar that time

Originally posted by darthsith19




When did he use the Force against the Dark Woman? I seem to remember him having his blade the entire time (and in the end, cutting down a tree). Yes, he did use the Force to help the tree fall over quickly, but he first used his saber to weaken the tree's support.
Um using the force to try to drown the dark lady?

Originally posted by darthsith19


True, he did use the Force against Roan Shryne. You contradict yourself, First you said because he didnt use the force against maul so it means he wouldnt use it against mace which also means he wouldnt use it against any one

Originally posted by darthsith19

Says the one who debates with insults and when asked for proof, replies saying he wants proof of the opposite.
says the one who never proves anything
Originally posted by darthsith19

Since when has Roan Shryne been several Force Users? Did you read my posts? I said the dark lady and the jedi from purge


Originally posted by Faunus

Against several lesser Jedi that any SW great could beat, yeah.

He doesn't have to prove a negative. The point im argueing to this guy is vader would use the force weather he will win or lose.

He is disputing that because he didnt use the force against maul so it means he is not going to use it against anybody including inferior jedi

Well, what if Mace strikes Vader with the force crush? Because windu's force crush against the super battle droids in Dantoine and later against Grievous was quite impressive too...



I saw Maul killing the Nightsister while being target by a force lightning. Prove me that Vader could have used the force to beat him then. And after that try to prove the same for windu, who is undoubtly stronger then maul in the force, and also a power house in physical strength (though not as strong as Maul). You see, to beat someone with the force you need to be quite stronger then him or at least caugh him off guard.

Ah, by the way, you are also quite a big moron too.



Happy to see that you ignored boba fett and sidious reference.Anyway, my point was, even that it's true that Vader could have (PROBABLY) used the force to beat Luke, if Luke had actually strike him down he would be dead. So, like it or not, he was defeated.



The point is, Revan is only a RPG character, so obviously i have to use quotes from the game to explain and justify his power. Also, the game is quite precise when it comes to canon, putting his characters in levels of power viable for the star wars world. Now, when a game allows a tower be destroyed by a blaster, this shows how close the game is from the star wars reality.

and vader doesnt know maces power or abilities because it was said that vader forgot about his past except for padme, yoda, and obi wan, and tatooine. he probably wouldnt even know who mace was

In saber, Mace takes it.

In force, it could go either way. Mace has at the very least, enough skill to use Force Crush. Given Anakin's physical state, such an attack could be devastating. On the other hand, Anakin has at the very least Force Scream and Choke. I believe Mace may take this simply because I've never really seen too much offensive Force use from Vader besides punishing his minions.

All out, I give to Mace.

Seriously kamhal. Who EVER takes you seriously here?


Originally posted by kamhal
Well, what if Mace strikes Vader with the force crush? Because windu's force crush against the super battle droids in Dantoine and later against Grievous was quite impressive too... Maces force crush was unable to kill grievious while vaders force crush was able to destroy an entire medical room with ease. And he used it by just getting angry and imagine the amount of damage he can unleash if he actually used a technique.

Oh and vaders apprentice whom is weaker than him was able to destroy a star destroyer with the force. Easily as well.Want to call me a liar? Watch the force unleashes trailer then


Originally posted by kamhal

I saw Maul killing the Nightsister while being target by a force lightning.
so?Originally posted by kamhal

Prove me that Vader could have used the force to beat him then.
Can you prove that he couldnt? He has used the force to kill his opponents several times. The feats that vader did with the force clearly > mauls i believe. Unless you want to prove maul > vader in the force which you will never will even if some one else did

He sent a thug crashing into a wall and send tark flying in the air onto the ceiling against the flow of gravity
Originally posted by kamhal
And after that try to prove the same for windu, who is undoubtly stronger then maul in the force, and also a power house in physical strength (though not as strong as Maul). You see, to beat someone with the force you need to be quite stronger then him or at least caugh him off guard. And vader wins a fairly hard fight with mace in the force. He has studied under the most powerful with lord in history for 20 over years Get over it kamhal, Most of us here agree vader is slightly stronger than mace in the force


so?Originally posted by kamhal
Ah, by the way, you are also quite a big moron too. Um no, your the only moron here trying to be a debator who have yet to even say anything logical

so?Originally posted by kamhal
Happy to see that you ignored boba fett

Uh big deal boba escaped vader so it means he is weak. Very good analogy


Originally posted by kamhal
Anyway, my point was, even that it's true that Vader could have (PROBABLY) used the force to beat Luke,


Uh no. Luke himself stated vader could have easily killed him with the force if he didnt hold back. Get this in your head moron



Originally posted by kamhal
if Luke had actually strike him down he would be dead. So, like it or not, he was defeated. Uh and he was holding back. So like it or not, vader held back and didnt use full power


Originally posted by kamhal
The point is, Revan is only a RPG character, so obviously i have to use quotes from the game to explain and justify his power.
Quotes which are debatable moron. You could have used revans feats and the statement in POD to put revan > exar which i would agree. But no, you had to be stupid to use a quote coming from a fallible third party character



Originally posted by kamhal
Also, the game is quite precise when it comes to canon, putting his characters in levels of power viable for the star wars world.
So i get that nihilus did lift a fleet of starships as said by tobin when out of universe sources said he only lifted the ravager?

There prove to you that third pt characters are fallible.

Precise my ass. Kreia even stated the ancient sith will make the masters of her era look like children with toys when all we see about the ancient sith is that ludo couldnt even block a brick thrown by sadow

Originally posted by kamhal
Now, when a game allows a tower be destroyed by a blaster, this shows how close the game is from the star wars reality. While vader destroyed a tank in gameplay, I dont see why he cant do it canonically. Given his force mastery and skills


Originally posted by alterangel
and vader doesnt know maces power or abilities because it was said that vader forgot about his past except for padme, yoda, and obi wan, and tatooine. he probably wouldnt even know who mace was He would, He still remembered darth maul when he met him

Oh gee, that really answers my question!




I know, I was agreeing with you, dumbass, holy fvcking shit! Can't you realize that I'm agreeing with you when I say straight up:



Holy fvck, your thicker than Nebrais, aka noobrais.




The insults are getting lame, dude. btw, you haven't proven anything, either, just thrown out insults, even when I agreed with you.






And is that any worse that saying he will use the Force just because he used it against Roan Shryne?





Fixed. But seriously, who does take you seriously?

Originally posted by darthsith19




I know, I was agreeing with you, dumbass, holy fvcking shit! Can't you realize that I'm agreeing with you when I say straight up:
Then its settled. Your disputing that because he didnt use the force against maul it means he is not going to use it against anyone.

Why would he use it against mace? Because he knows mace is going to mop the floor with his ass if he engages him in a pure saber fight. As if vader doesnt know mace moped sidious ass when he was in a saber only match.

Use a bit of logic darth sith. Now i will not insult you seeing that it is childish doing so(except for kamhal)






Originally posted by darthsith19

The insults are getting lame, dude. btw, you haven't proven anything, either, just thrown out insults, even when I agreed with you. settled





Originally posted by darthsith19

And is that any worse that saying he will use the Force just because he used it against Roan Shryne? That is not an isolated case, remember him choking a jedi while fending off 2 other knights with a lightsaber? He is using the force. And when did he use the force against the dark lady?

He pulled a waterfall attempting to drown her and if you use the force to use the environment to your advantage, that counts as using the force against your opponent doesnt it. Im sure we can agree on that.

There you go. Iv answered your question.

And you need to note. If you were a powerful jedi and know you will lose to this guy in a saber fight seeing that he owned your master in a pure saber duel. Would you be

1) Foolish enough to engage in a duel
Or
2) use the force?

Im sure you would be smart enough to use the force especially when your strength lies in the force




Originally posted by darthsith19

Fixed. But seriously, who does take you seriously?

Uh a few do when i bring up a logical point? To be honest, i do take you seriously and when i was flaming you the last few posts. I wasnt thinking and wanting to lash out. So you have my sincere apologies


Anyways about who wins this fight? Im sure mace owns him in a saber fight.

Vader wins a moderately difficult force fight


And as for an all out fight. It depends on the situation and what vader or mace choose to do.


Can we agree? Or do you want to get in a serious debate this time because im tired of argueing with kamhal who brings up absurd points

Originally posted by Manslayer
He would, He still remembered darth maul when he met him

how do you know that i dont believe he says anything proving that in the comic? if he does i would like to know were you found that?

Kadesh, I was agreeing that Vader used the Force against Roan, and that it was a good point. But that once case doesn't prove that he'll use the Force against Mace.

Yet this is the third post you did to answer me...



First, mace's force crush was strong enough to making a deadly foe like grievous in a little pussy who was beat in 30 seconds by obi-wan. And did vader used force crush "to destroy an entire medical room with ease"? When this happens actually? lol... Besides, tell me one deadly force crush that vader had ever used.By the way, notice that grievou's body armor was made from duranium, whih "It was extremely durable, and was capable of withstanding a glancing blow from a lightsaber"- wookipedia.



Have you played the game already? Because you are using as arg some imagines from a game whose plot is unknown yet. And didn't want vader to use his apprentice to beat sidious? Also, prove me that vader's apprentice is weaker then him. Guess what, the game and storyline isn't even out yet...



So, i can't prove he couldn't, you can prove he could. Yet the true is that he din't use the force against him and maul almost killed him.



The same sith lord who was beat by windu? And this arg is quite stupid, anakin studied under obi-wan and yet he beat dooku, who was stronger then obi-wan, and qui-gon studied under dooku and was beat by maul, dooku's inferior. This proves anything?



So what? Now i have to subdue myself to "most of yours"? Now i don't have freedom to express a different opinion is that? What if most of us thought that you are an *******, this makes you an ******* (quite controversial affirmation since it may actually touches the true)?



I hope you noticed that i called you moron after you did the same to me for no reason at all. And I call you a moron again since you called me moron once more and since you seem to love using insults.



You should have a very low IQ. I never tried to arg against this affirmation, even though it can be contested, i was merely pointing out that if Luke would actually strike him down, vader's superior force pwoers would mean nothing, he would be dead.
Also, third time in a row you call me a moron. I think it's official that you lack proper social education.



So, you just said that, due to POD, you agree that revanZexar= Thank you for saying that, i will not forget it next time we have such debate. By the way, do you really think you are offending me? Perhaps if you washed your mother properly you wouldn't say so much sh*t.



I think you are greatly confusing KOTOR with KOTOR II. In case you failed to noticed, they are 2 different games made by 2 different companies. Besides, haven't we agreed that sidious had done better then nihilus already? Thus, making nihilus powers and techniques canon...

Originally posted by kamhal
Yet this is the third post you did to answer me...


Originally posted by kamhal

First, mace's force crush was strong enough to making a deadly foe like grievous in a little pussy who was beat in 30 seconds by obi-wan. And did vader used force crush "to destroy an entire medical room with ease"?
Seems the idiot never watched ROTS. Vader does it at the end
Originally posted by kamhal

When this happens actually? lol... Besides, tell me one deadly force crush that vader had ever used.By the way, notice that grievou's body armor was made from duranium, whih "It was extremely durable, and was capable of withstanding a glancing blow from a lightsaber"- wookipedia. Lol yet obiwan was able to bend GG's armour easily and hacked of his arms. Nice try kamhal. As usual your an idiot


Originally posted by kamhal

Have you played the game already? Because you are using as arg some imagines from a game whose plot is unknown yet.
It was a cut scene in the trailer = it canon and it appears in concept art meaning it IS going to be part of the game
Originally posted by kamhal

And didn't want vader to use his apprentice to beat sidious?
Actually he wanted to beat sidious WITH his apprentice because sidious > both of them individually
Originally posted by kamhal

Also, prove me that vader's apprentice is weaker then him. Guess what, the game and storyline isn't even out yet... Your always asking for proof when you never prove anything except shit from wookiepedia. If vaders apprentice is stronger than him he would have killed vader and became sidious apprentice


Originally posted by kamhal

So, i can't prove he couldn't, you can prove he could. Yet the true is that he din't use the force against him and maul almost killed him. Vader chose to engage him in a saber duel not knowing maul is better than him in sabers. Idiot if vader chose to use the force from the start he could have killed maul



Originally posted by kamhal

The same sith lord who was beat by windu? And this arg is quite stupid, anakin studied under obi-wan and yet he beat dooku, who was stronger then obi-wan, and qui-gon studied under dooku and was beat by maul, dooku's inferior. This proves anything? Quit using a>b>c. And just what the bloody hell are you trying to say? Your english sucks thus why nobody wants to quote you and take you seriously


Originally posted by kamhal

So what? Now i have to subdue myself to "most of yours"? Now i don't have freedom to express a different opinion is that? What if most of us thought that you are an *******, this makes you an ******* (quite controversial affirmation since it may actually touches the true)? Cuz no one wants to take you seriously. I have yet to see you even win a debate. You always lose, ill tell you what goto lucasforums.com, They need morons like you


Originally posted by kamhal

I hope you noticed that i called you moron after you did the same to me for no reason at all.
You ARE a moron. Get over it. You dont back up what you say and you make ridiculous claims
Originally posted by kamhal

And I call you a moron again since you called me moron once more and since you seem to love using insults. Then its funny i apologised to Darthsith except you. Why? I can take him seriously, he can bring up good points but you cant. Instead your an idiot acting like a debator which i think advent said in the past


Originally posted by kamhal

You should have a very low IQ.
Lol like you even have an IQ of 1
Originally posted by kamhal

I never tried to arg against this affirmation, even though it can be contested, i was merely pointing out that if Luke would actually strike him down, vader's superior force pwoers would mean nothing, he would be dead.

No, you were trying to dispute a ROTJ luke being superior to vader because he lost. I just gave you the facts.

And so what if he was going to die if luke struck him with his lightsaber? This bears no relevance to a fight with mace windu.

See? Your just an idiot who brings up irrelevant points
Originally posted by kamhal

Also, third time in a row you call me a moron. I think it's official that you lack proper social education. Uh then you better get used to it. I have good friends IRL whom i can trust, seems your wrong and i dont like idiots acting like interllectuals



Originally posted by kamhal
By the way, do you really think you are offending me? Perhaps if you washed your mother properly you wouldn't say so much sh*t.
Lol so because you cant hurt me with simple words now you want to bring in my mother? LOL in the first place do you even have a father?

No! your a fatherless bastard friend and your mother sold you for 50 cents to a homeless dude who ****ed your backside everyday problably traumatising you which kind of hints to me why you are so stupid

Originally posted by kamhal

I think you are greatly confusing KOTOR with KOTOR II. In case you failed to noticed, they are 2 different games made by 2 different companies
So? The novels are also written by different authors. What is your point?
Pathetic rebuttals


Originally posted by alterangel
how do you know that i dont believe he says anything proving that in the comic? if he does i would like to know were you found that? Read ressurection. When vader met maul he shouts "DARTH MAUL??" and he knew maul was killed by obi wan

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kadesh, I was agreeing that Vader used the Force against Roan, and that it was a good point. But that once case doesn't prove that he'll use the Force against Mace. Im not really using that one case seeing that it holds no water

Anyways like i said vader knows how dangerous mace is with a lightsaber so it would be logical to assume vader is being smart to use the force at a distanct

@ Darthsith dont expect a reply too soon. I gotta go somewhere and may not be back here for maybe a month or two so i may not be able to continue the debate.

As for you kamhal. Go ahead and prove your stupidity. I wont even bother getting on a comp to argue with a prick like you. Say what you want, not like i will be reading it due to my absence so go talk to a wall

So know a force scream or a rage attack is force crush?

Note: i advise you to stop with the insults because you can't win anything with it since they mean absolutly nothing to me and even worst for you, they just make you looking rude and stupid, taking your credibility for debating.



Yeah, Obi-wan easily OPENED a duranium armour. Which this shows you? That mace's force crush was very powerful, in order to let his armour in such weak state. By the way, since you use insults in every single sentence you use, i will start to consider them as a compliment. So, please, you don't need to be so polite in every sentence ok ?



Then why Vader didn't use the force after maul disarmed him? Hmm...



Yet you answered to me again. And i am not using the a>b>c arg, if you can actually learn how to read you will notice that i was showing you that training under the supervision from a very strong jedi or sith doesn't makes you stronger then another person who was trained under a weak sith/jedi. But obviously you lack the intelligence to read a simple sentence and to notice such obvious thing. By the way, my english sucks? First, yours is not that good either, and second, I am not even from USA, UK or other native english speaker, what do you expect? And i didn't ask you to speak fluently portuguese did I?



So, i ask you why i have to subdue my opinions to other people's opinions, and your answer is "Cuz no wants to take you seriously". Lol, look, i am starting to think what kind of person you are because your speech is completly senseless. And i "lose" a debate? So, what i suppose to "lose"? And you are suppose to win what, a cup or something? And when did i "lose" a debate? Have a nice day once again.



Once again, have a nice day.



Insults again? You are so unoriginal. At least change the insult.



Hmm, do you want to my IQ? Last time i did a test from IQ i had 13 years old i took 140 from a adult test. Since them i can surely say that my mind is more developed. If you don't belive just send me a IQ test for me to make, but a dificult one please, the ones on the net are absurdly easy to do. Ah, and i forgot to say, i entered in Medicine this year with a candidature note of 19,3.



See what? Have i disagree that Vader>Luke in the force? If you read several points behind i was enumerating the foes that beat Vader. And it's not irrelevant because it shows who vader is reluctant in using the force in a fight, which i could use as evidence, saying that Vader would not use the force against Mace as he always did and so he would lost pretty badly.



Do you have good IRC friends? Thank good all my friends are made from bone and flesh and i can actually go out with them to the beach or the cinema



For your information i wanted to write "wash you mouth", but somehow your "mother" came out. I apologise for that, because even though you lack education as i already said, i will not put myself in such low level.



Godo to see you ignored the rest of the answer. In that case i will not answer you as well.

Personally, I'd have to concur with Manslayer concerning the issue with Mace Windu's powers compared to Vader. He WTFpwned the Emperor's medical laboratory and implements despite being only in the suit for, like, two minutes -- in a fit of rage. He dismantles a bridge in Rise of Darth Vader and uses the subsequent pieces as shrapnel and highly controlled weaponry in his duel with Roan Shryne. He's obviously skilled with the Force choke power, and he collapses a tree that is much larger than the column Dooku dropped on Anakin when Vader fought the Dark Lady.

He is more powerful in the Force, even after the suit, than Mace. Though it isn't a massive disparity by any means, and I have to say that Mace would beat Vader in a lightsaber duel due to Vaapad and Shatterpoint (and when it comes to mental and psychological weaknesses, Vader is a goldmine) and more than likely an all out fight. But it wouldn't be easy, and I do believe Mace would lose a strictly Force fight.

Really, Mace isn't a noob in Force manipulation either, Escape. He effectively pilots a ship in Shatterpoint, using Force pushes to activate firing frequences. He uses the Force to maintain a landslide during a volatile volcano eruption, and uses it even when he's being battered around to ride his own momentum. He uses it to guide grenade launcher shots into the turbines of gunships, and uses it to bounce off walls in the alley and avoid gunfire from a group of professionals. I could go on and on, but you make it seem like Vader is somehow better because in a fit of rage he broke some electronical equipment. Granted, dismantling a bridge in RoDV is pretty awesome, but Mace isn't far behind. In fact, I'd wager that Mace has far more control and practice, whereas Vader has potentially more raw power and rage. But remember Kar Vastor had the exact same thing... and he's nearly missing his hands. So yeah, Mace can out-think Vader all the same.

Mace wins.

Originally posted by kamhal
So know a force scream or a rage attack is force crush?
Yes but apparantly they are 2 different things moron. Vader does not know force scream and even if he did, he never used it.

Originally posted by kamhal

Note: i advise you to stop with the insults because you can't win anything with it since they mean absolutly nothing to me and even worst for you, they just make you looking rude and stupid, taking your credibility for debating. Thanks but i dont want advice for some one who proclaims him self a debator when he never proves anything



Originally posted by kamhal

Yeah, Obi-wan easily OPENED a duranium armour.
But your point was zomg GG's armour was so hard. Mace crushed a malleble armour, So?
Originally posted by kamhal

Which this shows you? That mace's force crush was very powerful,
No ones denying that, vader himself could bend a 1m thick door and destroy an entire medical room by just getting angry
Originally posted by kamhal

in order to let his armour in such weak state. By the way, since you use insults in every single sentence you use, i will start to consider them as a compliment. So, please, you don't need to be so polite in every sentence ok ? Ok idiot


Originally posted by kamhal

Then why Vader didn't use the force after maul disarmed him? Hmm... Cuz he didnt have the time to? Because he got his ass kicked when he tried to fight maul lightsaber toe to toe?



Originally posted by kamhal

Yet you answered to me again. And i am not using the a>b>c arg, if you can actually learn how to read
I can read but i am unable to comprehend what the hell your typing because your english is horrible, that is why no body wants to debate with you, when you type things, no one is able to understand it due to your shitty usage of the english language
Originally posted by kamhal

By the way, my english sucks? First, yours is not that good either,
Actually its above average but at the very least its better than yours. The reason why you *think* yours is better than mine is simply because you cant understand simple english so when people with good english talk to you, you take it that they suck
Originally posted by kamhal

and second, I am not even from USA, UK or other native english speaker, what do you expect? And i didn't ask you to speak fluently portuguese did I? Im not even an english person, Im thai moron and i speak alot better english than you. What do you expect? I didnt ask you to speak fluent thai did i?

English or *inglish* as you spell it is an international language. If you want to debate on forums its a must you even learn the language. Weather we know what you call portuguese bears no relevance


Originally posted by kamhal

So, i ask you why i have to subdue my opinions to other people's opinions, and your answer is "Cuz no wants to take you seriously". Lol, look, i am starting to think what kind of person you are because your speech is completly senseless.

Speak for yourself. Everything you type makes no sense and hardly anybody can understand what you type hence why acstyles once stated that no one takes you seriously and advent is another person whom i believe wont take you seriously.

Darth sexy, lightsnake, darth sith. NONE of em ever take you seriously
Originally posted by kamhal

And i "lose" a debate? So, what i suppose to "lose"? And you are suppose to win what, a cup or something? And when did i "lose" a debate? Have a nice day once again. Lol? Are you in denial? I owned in one topic where you said age weakens your connection to the force. Advent severely wtf pwned you when you tried to argue with her and atop that gideon came in to own you some more.

When did you lose? You ALWAYS lose


Originally posted by kamhal

Once again, have a nice day.
lol

Originally posted by kamhal

Insults again? You are so unoriginal. At least change the insult. Insults have no originality as every body uses the same insults


Originally posted by kamhal

Hmm, do you want to my IQ? Last time i did a test from IQ i had 13 years old i took 140 from a adult test.
HAHAHAHAHA! I spat my food and rolled on the floor wanking off after i read that. Firstly IF you were an adult you have absolutely horrendous grammar and punctuation skills, and should seriously consider taking some night classes. However, that not being the case, I'd say you need to stop sleeping in your remedial English class, pay attention and actually learn something, because when you type, you only embarrass yourself...no one else.

Secondly if you DID have an IQ of 140, you would be able to form cogent and understandable arguements here which you have yet to do and with your "developed" mind as an adult, you wouldnt be wasting your time flinging insults back at the one who throws it at you and brag about your so called IQ

And when you form proper arguements where people can comprehend and understand with your IQ, Then people would take you seriously which in this case no thus refuting your claim that you have an IQ of 140
Originally posted by kamhal

Since them i can surely say that my mind is more developed. If you don't belive just send me a IQ test for me to make, but a dificult one please, the ones on the net are absurdly easy to do. Ah, and i forgot to say, i entered in Medicine this year with a candidature note of 19,3.
Oh big deal i had an IQ of 148 yet i dropped out of school but since i was lucky i was able to get back into school, get into collage and get a masters and now im doing astronomy.

Nicetry noobhal, very very nice

Firstly i dont care if your studying medicine or if you got a degree, why? Because no one cares what your are kamhal. Nobody wants to get serious with you because you cant speak proper *inglish* nor type it and you act like your a intellect at debating and when people beat you in an arguement and prove many things, you want to brag false claims about your IQ and studying medicine. Who gives?

You can be smart in some aspects and be very stupid in others. Thats just what you are kamhal. When it comes to simple logical deduction and common sense, you are the perfect candidate for einsteins statement of "infinate space and infinite human stupidity"


Originally posted by kamhal

See what? Have i disagree that Vader>Luke in the force? If you read several points behind i was enumerating the foes that beat Vader. And it's not irrelevant because it shows who vader is reluctant in using the force in a fight,
Uh you tried to dispute that luke > vader and why did he hold back? His goal was not to kill him, Palpatines goal was to turn him to the dark side and thus ordered vader to help him do that so why would vader want to kill him?

See? You lack analogy and commen sense

Originally posted by kamhal

which i could use as evidence, saying that Vader would not use the force against Mace as he always did and so he would lost pretty badly. Right he wouldnt use the force against some body who is going to mop the floor with his ass if he doesnt use the force. He knows the deadliness of vaapad so why wouldnt he use the force against mace? He knows if he engages mace in a saber duel toe to toe he will lose hence why he WILL use the force.





Seems you do not read what i said to DS yet you tell me to read when you have yet to do that. Hypocrite


Originally posted by kamhal

Do you have good IRC friends? Thank good all my friends are made from bone and flesh and i can actually go out with them to the beach or the cinema Uh real-life friends moron. Thank good? Lol or do you mean "thank god"? I doubt you even have a religion noobhal.

Seems to me that you dont even have friends at all and you always imagine them hence it explains your stupidity


Originally posted by kamhal

For your information i wanted to write "wash you mouth", but somehow your "mother" came out. I apologise for that, because even though you lack education as i already said, i will not put myself in such low level. Hah you were already in a low level talking bout my mother. Never heard of the EDIT button huh?

Or was than some half ass excuse. The thing is weather you know it or not, YOU ARE on the level i am simply for throwing back insults the way i did.

And lowly educated? Seems to me i know alot more about alot of things that you do weather you like it or not.

Your the one who gives the impression that you dont even have any education at alll


Originally posted by kamhal

Godo to see you ignored the rest of the answer. In that case i will not answer you as well. Lol well see about that

As originally posted by yours truly in the post above yours, Janus:
" is more powerful in the Force, even after the suit, than Mace. Though it isn't a massive disparity by any means,"



I have not implied nor stated that Mace is somehow pathetic or even 'average' in the Force, Janus. To be the only other senior member of the Jedi High Council and "on par" with Yoda himself would suggest a nearly peerless strength in the Force as far as Jedi are concerned at the time. And as far as the feat concerning the grenade launcher is concerned, Luke Skywalker was able to -- as of A New Hope -- to guide two proton missiles into the reactor core of the Empire's most powerful weapon. One could argue that that is miles above Mace's maneuver with the grenade launcher (not that Luke himself is the stronger Force user at that point, of course).



He pretty much destroyed everything operating in the laboratory except for Sidious himself -- suggesting a raw power still well beyond Mace's own level -- if not uncontrolled. The fact that he did this after being in the suit for presumably less than an hour (a limiting suit at that) makes me more impressed.





That depends. Vader eventually becomes a dispassionate, cold harbinger of death rather than the hothead that he was in his youth. He displays an alarming control over his powers, and certainly I could agree that Mace has more, but not by any vast disparity.



Outthink Vader? That would require further debate. This is the man who ascends to the position of Supreme Commander of the Imperial Starfleet, even at the time when Grand Admirals Thrawn and Zaarin were major Imperial personnel. In sheer intelligence and tactics alone, I don't think Mace is better than Vader. Now, given the shatterpoint charism, that's a different story. But without it? I doubt it.

1. Lightsaber duel- Mace wins after a very good fight, Vader is still very good, but quite far from when he was in ROTS.

2. Force Duel- Vader wins, spent 20 years studying under Sidious, much more in control of his emotions, has better offensive arsenal...

3. All-out fight- Mace wins after a hard match.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
1. Lightsaber duel- Mace wins after a very good fight, Vader is still very good, but quite far from when he was in ROTS.

2. Force Duel- Vader wins, spent 20 years studying under Sidious, much more in control of his emotions, has better offensive arsenal...

3. All-out fight- Mace wins after a hard match.

When does Vader show an offensive arsenal of Force ability, besides choking some of his random officers?

Thanks for bumping an old thread. Go back a few pages, read, if not go to other vader threads

Is this applied to me, because it wasn't an old thread, a couple of days old.

No it was for se7in

Mace crushes vadar. pleases explain to me how vadar wins at all.

Vadar done nothing to suggest he close to mace windu level at all.

Lets see, mace tried to force crush grievious whom was made of duranium and couldn't succeed whereas vader as of ROTS in the suit could destroy palptines entire medical room made of the same material.

For a force fight, its debatable who wins but im going with vader seeing that he has more offensive power and techniques as well as being able to choke xizor when he(xizor) was on coruscant and vader on the star destroyer

1. Mace
2. Vader, easily
3. Vader

I wouldn't say vader beats mace "easily" considering maces strength in the force, i would say a tough challenge.

As for an overall fight it depends, if mace cans stick to a saber duel during an all out fight, he owns vader but if vader manages to keep his distance and use the force, its likely he wins.

At least we reach a consense. Seeing people saying that vader would own mace with the force is completly stupid to me.

By the way, I say mace. With his speed, vaadpad and shatterpoint, I doubt vader could beat him. Besides, when it comes to the force he was already showed capable of even deflecting sidious' lightning of "unlimited power" (even though with the help of the lightsaber).

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Lets see, mace tried to force crush grievious whom was made of duranium and couldn't succeed whereas vader as of ROTS in the suit could destroy palptines entire medical room made of the same material.

Couldn't succeed? Mace was simultaneously using Force Jump to keep up with a departing ship and dodging/deflecting blasts from the ship, and actually DID crush Grievous's lungs. Why do you think he's coughing in RotS? Did you even watch the episode?

this fight is a 50-50 fight for 2 reasons.
1) siths tend to be much more aggresive when using the force which may play to vader's advantage in combat. if you saw how he force strangled that guy over the intercom, you would see that he is very agressive in the force which would help him tremendously against windu.

2) windu is 100% organic, and more agile, so if he ever got close. he probably could win. C'mon. luke was only a knight when he beat vader in lightsaber combat and mace was a master.

Originally posted by Se7in
Couldn't succeed? Mace was simultaneously using Force Jump to keep up with a departing ship and dodging/deflecting blasts from the ship, and actually DID crush Grievous's lungs. Why do you think he's coughing in RotS? Did you even watch the episode? I meant he was unable to kill GG and crush his entire body as opposed who vader who destroyed an entire medical room made of the same material.

Originally posted by kamhal
At least we reach a consense. Seeing people saying that vader would own mace with the force is completly stupid to me. It is
Originally posted by kamhal

By the way, I say mace. With his speed, vaadpad and shatterpoint, I doubt vader could beat him. Besides, when it comes to the force he was already showed capable of even deflecting sidious' lightning of "unlimited power" (even though with the help of the lightsaber). Speed? Id argue vader can be as fast, seeing that he could dodge blastge fire that was already fired 10 feet infront of him, and speed isn't a issue for vader where he could reach out with the force and choke his victims, even if it is light years away.

As for mace reflecting palpatines lightning, prove it can reflect an invisible attack of a different property that maifests itself as nothing.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Lets see, mace tried to force crush grievious whom was made of duranium and couldn't succeed whereas vader as of ROTS in the suit could destroy palptines entire medical room made of the same material.

For a force fight, its debatable who wins but im going with vader seeing that he has more offensive power and techniques as well as being able to choke xizor when he(xizor) was on coruscant and vader on the star destroyer

..........al mace did was a quick force crush........which was far from using his entire power..........and grievous for the rest of his life was severally weaken........

all Vadar did was shack a stupid room and it was never stated that it was made out of duranium.


.........vadar done nothing to suggest he has more technigues or power.


for an all out fight vadar would get stomp by mace.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
..........al mace did was a quick force crush........which was far from using his entire power..........and grievous for the rest of his life was severally weaken........
And a force crush is a very powerful force technique no? Vader would have annihilated GG had he been in maces position excluding the blaster fire

Originally posted by Battlehammer

all Vadar did was shack a stupid room and it was never stated that it was made out of duranium. Do you know how to read? star wars complete locations states that, and vader utterly destroyed that room despite the fact that he has not received any training from sidious.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

.........vadar done nothing to suggest he has more technigues or power.
Yes he has, destroying a medical facility, diverting a waterfall, taking down a huge tree and plundering it on the dark lady, ripping out a bridge and bashed roan shryne, choked xizor light years away according to the bounty hunter wars.

Shut up already
Originally posted by Battlehammer

for an all out fight vadar would get stomp by mace. And it can be the other way around if vader keeps his distance and use the force

Originally posted by GahLakTus
And a force crush is a very powerful force technique no? Vader would have annihilated GG had he been in maces position excluding the blaster fire

Do you know how to read? star wars complete locations states that, and vader utterly destroyed that room despite the fact that he has not received any training from sidious.

Yes he has, destroying a medical facility, diverting a waterfall, taking down a huge tree and plundering it on the dark lady, ripping out a bridge and bashed roan shryne, choked xizor light years away according to the bounty hunter wars.

Shut up already
And it can be the other way around if vader keeps his distance and use the force
........pure speculation on your part.


is that book cannon? And can you prove it is?



can you prove these events are cannon? if not then there rather worthless.



man you have a hard on for vadar.


sorry, but know. Vadar cis would cause him to go into melee which he lose and rather fast.

also there nothing to suggest Vadar even attempting to use simply just range attacks would win. Mace has displayed that palp range attacks were not enough. And Vadar is no palp

Originally posted by Battlehammer
........pure speculation on your part.
No it isn't. So if i put a grenade in a guys mouth and i say its going to blow his head off is speculating?
Originally posted by Battlehammer

is that book cannon? And can you prove it is?
Of course it is you idiot, it was approved by lucas arts, if it isn't canon why is it even being published in the first place?


Originally posted by Battlehammer

can you prove these events are cannon? if not then there rather worthless. Can you prove they are not? Sure its canon, its in the comics and its approved by lucas arts thus receiving canon status


Originally posted by Battlehammer

man you have a hard on for vadar.
And your hard on for stupidity

sorry, but know. Vadar cis would cause him to go into melee which he lose and rather fast.
Originally posted by Battlehammer

also there nothing to suggest Vadar even attempting to use simply just range attacks would win. Mace has displayed that palp range attacks were not enough. And Vadar is no palp Range attacks? I merely stated in an all out fight that vader would be smart not to engage in duel and use the force which is his biggest advangae.

Oh and according to lucas vader is 80% as powerful as sidious.

Now, shut the hell up.

And palpatine struck with lightning, PROVE that mace can block and reflect a telekenetic based force power who does not manifest its self as anything which can be seen through the naked eye.

Who why would vader want to engage mace in a saber duel knowing that mace's vaapad would get him owned? He would be stupid if he did that, and proof he knows about mace vaapad? Lets see, he has been studying in the council for like 10 over years, he would obviously know mace windus combat prowess.

Question: did vader ever killed someone with force crush? Besides, when did he use it?

Originally posted by kamhal
Question: did vader ever killed someone with force crush? Besides, when did he use it? Has exar ever killed anybody with his amulet? Has sidious ever used his force sever on any one? Has revan ever used his force storm on anybody? Yet these ARE still combat relevant

When did he use it? The medical facility, he used it to kill his officers in tie fighter, the pack of wilddogs who attacked him.

Get off this forum kamhal, your a fu*king embarrasment

He killed a huge beast, that fits to me.



He didn't even try this power, yet he killed plenty of people with his force lightning alone



Wasn't Revan stated to have killed all rakatan scouts and his rancor beats with force storm?



Sidious severing other force user from the force? Not really. The others, yeah, sure, why not, since they were proved extremely effective.



Prove me that he was using force crush in the medical facility during that 25 seconds attack. And prove me that it was force crush instead of force choque.



Yeah, surely, I am an embarrasment for you, who loves the hell of vader and can't see anyone saying a thing about him without p*ssing on his pants.

Besides, and after you changed all the point of my post, I ASKED if vader HAD EVER USED force crush since everybody seems to worship his force crush "OMG, VADER WOULD WTFOWNED HIM WITH FORCE CRUSH" every time vader is suppose to fight someone inferior to sidious or yoda in the force, which is pathetic, especially when vader is hardly seen using force powers every time he fights a strong force user.

Originally posted by kamhal
He killed a huge beast, that fits to me.
And vader crushed his officers in tie fighter

Originally posted by kamhal

He didn't even try this power, yet he killed plenty of people with his force lightning alone


Originally posted by kamhal

Wasn't Revan stated to have killed all rakatan scouts and his rancor beats with force storm?
No he wasn't lol look who's sexually fellating his favourite character

Originally posted by kamhal

Sidious severing other force user from the force? Not really. The others, yeah, sure, why not, since they were proved extremely effective.
He had the capabilities to, so why not. Oh i guess going by your logic, seeing that he never used the fallanasi technique, if he ever faced nihilus, he won't use it simply because he has never shown to use it before despite the fact he was stated th having the technique... Good one kamhal

Originally posted by kamhal

Prove me that he was using force crush in the medical facility during that 25 seconds attack. And prove me that it was force crush instead of force choque. Lol you always ask for prove when you NEVER PROVE UP, Prove to me it wasn't seeing that the metal walls got CRUSHED, how bout you examine the part where palpatine smiles when vader is angry and look at the background when a dangling piece of debris gets CRUSHED.

Oh and the officer he killed in tie fighter, the officer gets suspended in the air and we see his entire body get crushed by vader, as for the pack of wildogs if he gripped them on his throat, they should be hanging on their necks, not their entire body leveled evenly.


Originally posted by kamhal

Yeah, surely, I am an embarrasment for you, who loves the hell of vader and can't see anyone saying a thing about him without p*ssing on his pants. Lol what a pathetic attempt at a failed comeback, Firstly how do i "love" vader when im argueing and backing up my claims with FACTS as opposed to you whom has never once proved anything when you "debate" with me, when i at the LEAST use some logic when it comes to vader.

Why else do you think advent called you an idiot? Why else do you think acstyles asked as i did once that why does no one take you seriously? Why do you think nobody else except me and nebaris bother to reply to you poorly constructed unsupported claims?

Simple, because they think your so pathetic and so weak in building arguements they don't even want to waste their time typing to a guy who claims he is an adult seeing the way he constructs his sentences says pretty much about him.

Prove to me it was not a crush, seeing that we saw droids getting crushed and the walls ending up that way,

Prove to me it was something else, prove to me it was a force scream seeing that we have never seen the effects of a force scream before,

Prove to me he choked that officer in tie fighter seeing his body gets lifted and then crushed.

kamhal, its time to prove up seeing that you NEVER prove anything save for that one time in one entire year where you posted a quote about sidious

Your horrible logic goes "Oh guy A does Feat X but Guy B does not, so it means guy b gets owned by guy a"

Yea then i guess vaders apprentice takes a shit on mace windu seeing that he pulled a star destroyer crashing towards him.
Originally posted by kamhal

Besides, and after you changed all the point of my post, I ASKED if vader HAD EVER USED force crush since everybody seems to worship his force crush
OF COURSE HE HAS, PLAY THE GAME TIE FIGHTER, PROVE IT WAS A CHOKE AND NOT A FORCE CRUSH SEEING THAT EVEN WOOKIEPEDIA, WHICH YOUR SO FOND OF USING SAID HE USED FORCE CRUSH.
Originally posted by kamhal

"OMG, VADER WOULD WTFOWNED HIM WITH FORCE CRUSH" every time vader is suppose to fight someone inferior to sidious or yoda in the force, which is pathetic, especially when vader is hardly seen using force powers every time he fights a strong force user. Lol and i can argue he simply chose to engage them in a pure saber duel seeing that when a sith lord defeats his opponents through saber combat, it boosts their ego and it was vaders PREFERENCE to not use the force against some of his opponents. OH WAIT how i forgot that he used the force against the dark lady, against roan shryne and others.

Really kamhal all iv seen you do is DOWNPLAY vader

1) It was a question
2) Hmm, haven't the Rakatans describing Revan "calling lightning from the sky to slaughter us" or somehting like that?



Talks the person who is always saying that since revan is an unknown in lightsaber ability, he loses for default



What do you want me to prove? The same you prove? The same you prove claiming that the droids are built from the same material as the Center, or maybe the fact you are ignoring that vader need as much as 25 seconds to do that damage when mace did an INSTANT force crush on grievous? If mace had spent 25 seconds crushing grievous he would have been reduced to dust...



You ask me for prove, yet you are the one who are using proofless args and the one who is asking ME to prove YOUR args. And look at you, using vader apprentice as arg when you don't know either the way he pull down the star destroyer or what he had done. Do you see how pathetic you are?

Besides, who said I care sh*t about what other people say or think about me, ever?



I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE YOU NOTHING SINCE IT'S YOU WHO ARE *****NG USING THIS SH*TTY GAME AS EVIDENCE, CAPICHE?



And then I can arg that all you are saying is crap since you have no proofs of that and then I can say that vader fights strong force users with his lightsaber because he can't beat them with the force, and I can arg that, for example, if he could use the force to beat Maul then he would let himself being that badly beaten and only winning do to a fluck.

Against the DARK WOMAN? Then why the f*ck he had to use the force to bring down a tree, after cutting it with the lightsaber, in order to kill her? Why not just force crush her? Yes, haven't she disarmed him? I think that would be a good moment to kill her don't you think? And since when the Dark Woman is one of the very best jedis of his time?

And I downplay vader? Ok, then what you call GL saying that after mustafar that Vader should be viewed as a tragic/pathetic figure. He was portrayed as no more than another of the Emperor's flukies fighting it out on the Deathstar for the Emperor's approval and just trying to one up each other. GL specifically states that Vader went from being the number 2 guy in the Empire to just another high level flunky. What do you call this then?

Originally posted by kamhal
1) It was a question
2) Hmm, haven't the Rakatans describing Revan "calling lightning from the sky to slaughter us" or somehting like that? Oh really? Last i recall, a quote provided from s_w_legend, a good source of info for quotes regarding kotor characters stated that the rakatans were defeated move after move indicating that revan never killed them in one move


Originally posted by kamhal

Talks the person who is always saying that since revan is an unknown in lightsaber ability, he loses for default
When did i ever say revan "loses by default"? I simply stated that it is unknown weather how great is revan with the lightsaber because i ACKNOWLEDGED the FACT that he is a lightsaber prodigy.

Quote me mother ****er, that i said revan would lose by default, oh you can't? Right, its because your a liar.

Originally posted by kamhal

What do you want me to prove? The same you prove?
Everything you claimed, prove that vader used force scream.
Originally posted by kamhal

The same you prove claiming that the droids are built from the same material as the Center,
Actually i would concede that seeing that vader merely destroyed the droids with his emotions . Now, what happens if he used a technique? Oh right it was stated that it was difficult to destroy droids with a certain technique or wave of a hand, yet you should look at this quote

Luke also destroyed a group of hot-wired battle droids just by waving his hand, subtly displacing their master servos and causing the self-destruction of the group of droids. This Force power was first manifested by Jedi Master Arca Jeth during the Great Droid Revolution. Even then, with proper instruction, it was a difficult power to master. However, this power apparently came naturally to Luke.

^ This alone indicates it is difficult to master a technique that can destroy droids easily, yet we see vader effortlessly destroying those droids with his EMOTIONS ALONE.

How i forget he busted up the walls made of duralium easily too.
Originally posted by kamhal

or maybe the fact you are ignoring that vader need as much as 25 seconds to do that damage when mace did an INSTANT force crush on grievous?
Lol you are by far the most idiotic person iv argued with, in a sense that you claim your an intellect with high IQ but the way you interpret and argue things says other wise.

Or maybe the fact you are ignoring that vader was using his emotions and the very fact that he has yet to receive any dark side training from sidious nor the time to grow stronger in the force in his potential which has been limited.


Originally posted by kamhal

If mace had spent 25 seconds crushing grievous he would have been reduced to dust... Lol so because ROTS vader, whom has been severely weakened, has no dark side training nor experience nor tutelage from emperor palpatine, it means that his OT incarnation, whom is clearly superior to his ROTS mechanical state will still be as weak.


Originally posted by kamhal

You ask me for prove,
Because you never prove anything

Originally posted by kamhal

yet you are the one who are using proofless args and the one who is asking ME to prove YOUR args.
Proofless? When i mentioned vader used force crush, i stated it was backed up by wookiepedia which your overly fond of using, i also used the tie fighter cut scenes to prove this which are canon, excuse me but i DARE you to say it again that i never prove anything?

How bout the fact that i proved to you the medical facility was made up of duralium? It doesn't matter weather the droids were made of the same material or not, simply because vader destroyed the walls with his emotions alone, and would have done far greater damage had he used a technique with his emotions to fuel his attacks.

Darth Vader, who would not hesitate to use Force Crush and similar techniques on Imperial personnel that he deemed incompetent, was capable of crushing small vehicles on the battlefield., And yes this is from wikipedia

Oh wait somebody actually agrees with me that vaders force powers are indeed strong, and it is coming from one of and prehaps the best debator in the SWV

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/917/agreeci7.png

Heres a screenshot that i proved to you something about the medical facility.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/5118/noobhalef7.png

^ Notice you asked me to prove to you something and i did it regardless? It may not have been the droids but i proved to you something that he destroyed made of duralium effortlessly with just his emotions alone, notice that now i conceded he used force crush in that room?

Right and imagine what would happen if he actually used a technqiue along with his emotions which fuel his attacks, and before you claim im making up bullshit, its a fact, just ask lightsnake and gideon, they have the sources as to where it states emotions can feed your power.

Last i recall its stated in ROTS where it stated anakins emotion, fear fed his anger and made him stronger

As to where force crush originated, wiki states where it first appeared

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4271/crushmq3.png

Originally posted by kamhal

And look at you, using vader apprentice as arg when you don't know either the way he pull down the star destroyer or what he had done. Do you see how pathetic you are? The video clearly showed that he used the force to sending it crash towards him. Now who's pathetic? Seeing that you were unable to comprehend what a video has depicted.
Originally posted by kamhal

Besides, who said I care sh*t about what other people say or think about me, ever?
Because your an embarrassment and you don't seem to realise that, oh wait then you should be some young petty kid then.
Originally posted by kamhal

I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE YOU NOTHING SINCE IT'S YOU WHO ARE *****NG USING THIS SH*TTY GAME AS EVIDENCE, CAPICHE? Cut scenes are canon friend, as it is applied to KOTOR or any other game. And yes, you DO have to prove up.

I can claim that the sun orbits the earth, but nobody would take it unless i prove it.


Originally posted by kamhal

And then I can arg that all you are saying is crap since you have no proofs of that
I do actually, though it derives from logic. I guess you never heard of the words "personal preference".
Originally posted by kamhal

and then I can say that vader fights strong force users with his lightsaber because he can't beat them with the force, and I can arg that, for example, if he could use the force to beat Maul then he would let himself being that badly beaten and only winning do to a fluck. Lol, and we clearly saw vader wanting to engage him in a duel because before the battle started he could have at the least tried a force attack.

Lol when did revan ever use a force storm in a 1 v 1 battle situation against force users? Yet we argue he would, When did exar ever use his amulet against a force user? Yet we still argue, Hell when did luke ever used emerald lightning against a force user? He could have tooled jacen solo with that power had he wanted to use it, just because vader or anybody else doesn't use their force attacks in some situations it does not mean they won't use it at all.
Originally posted by kamhal

Against the DARK WOMAN? Then why the f*ck he had to use the force to bring down a tree, after cutting it with the lightsaber, in order to kill her?
Because he chose to? Because he chose to engage her in a pure saber duel from the start? Because it was not necessary to use his force attacks until later on when he underestimated the dark lady?
Originally posted by kamhal

Why not just force crush her?
her?
Because he saw an opportunity to bring down a large object onto her and when vader is serious about killing his opponents, he would do so by any means, it does not always have to be a force crush unless of course he is fighting in an area where it wouldn't be an advantage to him.
Originally posted by kamhal

Yes, haven't she disarmed him? I think that would be a good moment to kill her don't you think?
Uh ok? Notice the fact that she was at arms length and it was much easier to grab her arms and throw her back considering vaders immense physical strength?

Oh right i think there were several good moments for luke to use emerald lightning onto caedus but because he doesn't, it means he does not have the technique or he will never use it in a 1 v 1 fight.

Originally posted by kamhal

And since when the Dark Woman is one of the very best jedis of his time? Wasn't she able to pass through walls with the force? And tell me when did another force user exhibit this ability?

Again because your overly fond of using wookiepedia, how about this

Kuro was a powerful Jedi and was known to possess many Force powers uncommon among the Jedi, such as the ability to control plant matter, and bend light around her to render herself invisible. She even appeared able to pass through solid objects

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4262/600pxintangibilityuf2.jpg

The point is the opponents vader attacked does not have to be "the very best" simply because even if the very best or strongest does not put up a resistance or a defence, he/she is going to get hurt and maybe even killed either way if vader wishes that his attacks are to a point lethel


Originally posted by kamhal

And I downplay vader? Ok, then what you call GL saying that after mustafar that Vader should be viewed as a tragic/pathetic figure.
Quote please, and that is not downplaying vader unlike you who makes vader look like a weak ass shitty sith lord, even he himself stated vader is 80% of the most powerful sith lord in history indicating that vader is indeed a powerful and proficient force user.
Originally posted by kamhal

He was portrayed as no more than another of the Emperor's flukies fighting it out on the Deathstar for the Emperor's approval and just trying to one up each other. GL specifically states that Vader went from being the number 2 guy in the Empire to just another high level flunky. What do you call this then? Your downplaying vaders powers, while GL is not.

Consider yourself owned

Originally posted by GahLakTus
He didnt use the force, so shut up. force = vaders strength

You cant debate and you never will

Mace will own vader in all 3, so shut up. Vader may be strong in the force, but he is still not as good as mace, so shut up.

Mace was able to hold hundreds of tonnes of rock in the air with his telekinetic ability. That's beyond anything Vader has been able to do.

Originally posted by Darth_noodle
Mace will own vader in all 3, so shut up. Vader may be strong in the force, but he is still not as good as mace, so shut up. Prove up or shut up seeing you have yet to do either. Prove he isn't as powerful as mace seeing that he studied under the most powerful sith lord for 20 years.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Mace was able to hold hundreds of tonnes of rock in the air with his telekinetic ability. That's beyond anything Vader has been able to do. I thought he was "riding" those landslides? Anyways where did he demonstrate this? Was in in a cartoon or a comic because i would like to check it out

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

It's said in the novel, Shatterpoint.

Essentially, it means that Mace has displayed far more power than your boyfriend.

The Rakatan were talking about the last time Revan was there, when he showed up with Malak as the dark lord, not the second time when he showed up as a jedi knight...



You said vader wins against revan in lightsaber duel because he is an unknown so don't try to change the subject. Mother f*cker? You are such a a f*cking low level person. And would I want to f*ck you are fat ugly mom?



Byyour logic Mace Windu should be a force god seeing how many super battle droids he destoyed with the force in the battle of dantooine and in the battle of coruscant...



I am idiotic? Do you have a mirror at home? ... And he was using his emotions, so what, what the f*ck this proves? Wasn't he using his emotions, his hate, like every other sith, to fuel and use the force?

And yes, I have a high QI, or at least acknowledging the pathetically easy IQ tests in the net, but I don't see the point of this subject in this discussion.



Gahlaktus, let me ask you one thing, do you NEED other people's aproval in order to exposu your thoughts and ideas? Because you seem to lack your fundations by always comparing people with each other, judgind who are the "good" or "bad" debaters, What about you try to make the things for yourself? Besides, in case you can't read, "Darth Vader, who would not hesitate to use Force Crush and similar techniques on Imperial personnel that he deemed incompetent, was capable of crushing small vehicles on the battlefield"

similar techniques=force grip or force crush
capable of crushing small vehicles on the battlefield=gameplay

So the question still remains, when did Vader ever force crushed a strong force user?

assing through tons of bullsh*t and stupid ******* conversation:

80%? So what? Guess what, someone making 100 meters in 12,5 seconds (by being 80% as fast as someone who makes 100 meters in 10 seconds) is hardly an olimpic athlet. Surem he is fast, but he is one of the best? So, this 80% are quite subjective you know that?

Anyway, after all this waste of my time with this ridiculous long posts, you failed to prove that vader could use the force in any possible and agressive way in order to beat windu, and unless you can arg that vader would beat windu with the lightsaber, whitch i think not even you would do that, vader goes down.

Wow kamhal you get your ass handed, you get your rebutalls torn to pieces and you come back for more.

Originally posted by kamhal
The Rakatan were talking about the last time Revan was there, when he showed up with Malak as the dark lord, not the second time when he showed up as a jedi knight... Which is what the rakatans was referring to about "move after move" idiot.


Originally posted by kamhal

You said vader wins against revan in lightsaber duel because he is an unknown so don't try to change the subject. Mother f*cker? You are such a a f*cking low level person. And would I want to f*ck you are fat ugly mom?

Lol you mean this quote below?

Originally posted by GahLakTus
For a saber duel, once again we do not know if revan is better than OT vader or not but theres enough evidence to put vader the victor


^ If you actually KNOW how to comprehend basic sentences i said theres enough EVIDENCE to put vader above revan in dueling, i NEVER said revan loses because he is an unknown, hell i DO know revans a saber prodigy and an expert BUT THE REAL question is HOW good was he?

You see what i mean? Your a fu(king idiot NOBODY takes seriously in KMC, You get DEFEATED in EVERY debate you ever took in, EVERYTIME you argue your arguements get torn to pieces and you come back to humuliate yourself EVEN MORE.

Kamhal, Doesn't it suck you spend your ENTIRE life on a forum and can't win a single arguement?

Really, do we even know revans lightsaber form? Do we even know how good the kotor saber duelers are?

Hence i made that assumption, oh right and your the idiot who said revan beats vader without any claims or evidence. Hell your so damm stupid you couldn't even comprehend a sentance

Originally posted by kamhal

Byyour logic Mace Windu should be a force god seeing how many super battle droids he destoyed with the force in the battle of dantooine and in the battle of coruscant... I was merely pointing out the fact vader destroyed droids and a medical room by merely getting angry, windu used the force to destroy droids, not his emotions alone.

Again if you actually know how to comprehend basic english sentences, i was merely pointing the fact that vader would have destroyed droids easily if he used a technique rather than his anger alone.



Originally posted by kamhal

I am idiotic? Do you have a mirror at home? ... And he was using his emotions, so what, what the f*ck this proves? Wasn't he using his emotions, his hate, like every other sith, to fuel and use the force?
I don't need a mirror to tell me how idiotic you are LOL seeing that the way you type pretty much says otherwise. And what the "fu(k does using his emotions prove"? That he merely attacked in a uncontrolled rage where he could have done greater damage had he used a technique.

Oh right you ignore the fact that he was weakened and the fact he has yet to grow stronger in the force nor receive any dark side training, yet he accomplished a simple feat by breaking a medical room.
Originally posted by kamhal

And yes, I have a high QI, or at least acknowledging the pathetically easy IQ tests in the net, but I don't see the point of this subject in this discussion. Lol you have a high IQ? then why do you look so stupid when you type on the internet? Why does everybody regard you a joke of KMC?

LOL i think you have a negative IQ


Originally posted by kamhal

Gahlaktus, let me ask you one thing, do you NEED other people's aproval in order to exposu your thoughts and ideas?
I don't, they didn't approve anything, they merely agreed with me simply because YOUR WRONG.
Originally posted by kamhal

Because you seem to lack your fundations by always comparing people with each other, judgind who are the "good" or "bad" debaters,
I don't "judge". I just pointed out the fact your a shitty debator.
Originally posted by kamhal

What about you try to make the things for yourself? Besides, in case you can't read, "Darth Vader, who would not hesitate to use Force Crush and similar techniques on Imperial personnel that he deemed incompetent, was capable of crushing small vehicles on the battlefield" In case you can't read or comprehend, ill highlight in in bold for a child like you

"Darth Vader, who would not hesitate to use Force Crush and similar techniques on Imperial personnel that he deemed incompetent, was capable of crushing small vehicles on the battlefield.

^ Notice the word "and"? And why do you need to tell me to really read up on the english language seeing you can't

1)Spell properly
2)Comprehend basic texts
3)Horrible grammer
4) poorly constructed sentences
5)Pathetic arguements
Originally posted by kamhal

similar techniques=force grip or force crush
capable of crushing small vehicles on the battlefield=gameplay
You forgot the word "and". Force crush AND similar techniques, My god you need to learn how to read.

And it said he was CAPABLE of crushing tanks on the battlefield because the technique is POWERFUL enough, just because he has not shown it in a fight doesn't mean its not a useful technique
Originally posted by kamhal

So the question still remains, when did Vader ever force crushed a strong force user? Ill ask you a better question, when did your precious revan ever use his "force storm" against a powerful user? When did exar kun ever use his amulets on a force user? Yet we still argue it would be used in a battle scenario.
Accept it son and move on with life.
Originally posted by kamhal


80%? So what? Guess what, someone making 100 meters in 12,5 seconds (by being 80% as fast as someone who makes 100 meters in 10 seconds) is hardly an olimpic athlet. Surem he is fast, but he is one of the best? So, this 80% are quite subjective you know that? So your implying vader is not powerful at all? Wow your even more stupid that i thought, you seem pretty hopeless now.
And GL was regarding vaders strength and power in the force.
Originally posted by kamhal

Anyway, after all this waste of my time with this ridiculous long posts, you failed to prove that vader could use the force in any possible and agressive way in order to beat windu, and unless you can arg that vader would beat windu with the lightsaber, whitch i think not even you would do that, vader goes down. Vader goes down in a saber fight yes, but a force fight? Where vader is capable of using the terrain to his advantage? Where at the same time he can inflict attacks via the dark side of the force? Its up for debate

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

It's said in the novel, Shatterpoint.

Essentially, it means that Mace has displayed far more power than your boyfriend. Ok, so i guess vaders secret apprentice takes a shit on windu seeing he pulled a star destroyer towards him.

And the fact that vader choked xizor millions of lightyears away in the bounty hunter wars so i guess because mace didn't perform that feat i guess he gets owned.

That teaser isn't officially canon until it's confirmed to take place in the Video game Canon, meaning this point means nothing.



Using the force from such distances isn't anything special. Plo Koon contacts the Jedi from lightyears away telepathically, during the Stark Hyperspace Wars, and he's certainly never been renowned for his ability like Mace has. TK, on the other hand, is hardly ever displayed to the level shown by Mace, even from powerful Jedi Masters like Yoda, who even struggles with lifting up a relatively small and light pillar, in AotC.

Fact of the matter is, Mace has displayed far more power than Vader, and what's even more, he can draw off of his darkside energies using Vaapad, and his extremely useful Shatterpoint gift would definitely prove to be advantageous, given it could tell him things such as the most vulnerable part of Vader's suit to attack, for example.

Given evidence on hand, Mace is far more powerful than Vader with the force, and nothing suggests that Vader would even put up a fight.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
That teaser isn't officially canon until it's confirmed to take place in the Video game Canon, meaning this point means nothing.
Thats like saying anakin swinging his saber is not canon in the teaser because it(the movie) hasn't been released yet

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Using the force from such distances isn't anything special. Plo Koon contacts the Jedi from lightyears away telepathically, during the Stark Hyperspace Wars, and he's certainly never been renowned for his ability like Mace has. TK, on the other hand, is hardly ever displayed to the level shown by Mace, even from powerful Jedi Masters like Yoda, who even struggles with lifting up a relatively small and light pillar, in AotC.
If i recall i remember you were bragging how great freedon nadd was because he attacked vodo light years away,

Here are the screenshots of your previous socks to prove to you that you once said attacking one from lightyears is a big ass feat

http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nebarissb0.png

^ Thats YOU


http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8475/noobarisgo4.png

^ Notice i took the liberty of highlighting it for you? You my friend, contradict yourself on a daily basis

I guess going by what you just said, mace windu > yoda in the force simply because yoda had not accomplished that feat.

Again prove to me that the teaser trailer isn't canon, with what you just said i might as well assume the teaser for ROTS is non canon at the time it came out simply because it has yet to be "confirmed"

Oh right how i forgot that yoda just finished his duel with dooku and could have gotten tired

Ill get to the rest later

...

These odd examples you bring up truly astonish me.

Anyways, you're being dense; teaser trailers or clips alone are not canon, until we know for sure that what we see from them will be in the final product, simply because they're released before production has truly finished. Trailers for movies, for example, are constantly shown with material that doesn't appear in the movie. Hell, a trailer for the Movie, Cruel Intentions 2 depicted a plot that wasn't even present in the movie. Fact of the matter is, it's not canon. Deal with it.



Which, as a feat, is a million times better than what Vader does.

1. Vodo, as a force sensitive, has a defence to force attacks.

2. He did it as a "powerless" spirit.

If you could actually analyse circumstances around such feats, you might occasionally hold a logical opinion.



Really quite untrue, and unnecessary.



No, I really don't, and if you could properly comprehend my arguments, you wouldn't draw such silly conclusions. Using the force over great distances alone isn't that great a feat. Doing it as a powerless spirit offensively against a Jedi Master is.



Again, "friend," you need to work on your ability to comprehend basic points. If you do, you might one day actually be able to draw proper conclusions.

I was simply substantiating how even basic TK can prove difficult for Jedi as powerful as Yoda. Yoda was fatigued and such, meaning it wasn't even near his limit, but if it were totally beneath him, the fatigue wouldn't have mattered.

Mace is obviously not more powerful than Yoda with the force, as Yoda is confirmed as being the most powerful jedi of his time. But he's stated as being close, on numerous occasions, and his displayed TK ability demonstrates greater force ability than anything Vader has ever done by a huge margin. Add in Vaapad and Shatterpoint, as well as the fact that Mace has no issue with using offensive powers against his foes, and Vader would get schooled in a force battle between the two.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
...

These odd examples you bring up truly astonish me.

Anyways, you're being dense; teaser trailers or clips alone are not canon, until we know for sure that what we see from them will be in the final product, simply because they're released before production has truly finished. Trailers for movies, for example, are constantly shown with material that doesn't appear in the movie. Hell, a trailer for the Movie, Cruel Intentions 2 depicted a plot that wasn't even present in the movie. Fact of the matter is, it's not canon. Deal with it. I guess concept art says your wrong, hell and everything that appeared in the trailer appeared in the movie.


Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Which, as a feat, is a million times better than what Vader does.
Lol and you just said attacking another person across the galaxy isnt anything impressive, you contradict yourself on a daily basis
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

1. Vodo, as a force sensitive, has a defence to force attacks. Did he put up a defence? How i forget a superior force user can break through a defence an inferior force user puts up. Or that wouldn't matter at all if you don't put one up in the first place.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

2. He did it as a "powerless" spirit. He only claimed he was powerless.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

If you could actually analyse circumstances around such feats, you might occasionally hold a logical opinion. Right and you yourself just stated that it was not an impressive feat, and now your saying it is when it comes to a character you sexually fellate.

Just like how you ramble "wookie is fallible! but its not when it comes to bane!"


Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Really quite untrue, and unnecessary. Don't try to cover up your identity nebaris, those two WERE your previous socks, and they were necessary to show you contradict yourself.


Originally posted by Ultra Omega

No, I really don't, and if you could properly comprehend my arguments,
How do i comprehend something which does not make sense better yet one who has yet to win a single arguement and one who blatantly lies?
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

you wouldn't draw such silly conclusions. Using the force over great distances alone isn't that great a feat. Doing it as a powerless spirit offensively against a Jedi Master is. Firstly, prove that he was "powerless".

Oh right its because he said so, coming from a fallible third part character.


Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Again, "friend," you need to work on your ability to comprehend basic points. If you do, you might one day actually be able to draw proper conclusions. lol says the one who has yet to do so, says the one who once said "freedon nadd is the chosen one". Says the one who argues against canon sources and tries to disprove them.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I was simply substantiating how even basic TK can prove difficult for Jedi as powerful as Yoda. Yoda was fatigued and such, meaning it wasn't even near his limit, but if it were totally beneath him, the fatigue wouldn't have mattered. And yoda lifted a mountain with the force in the clone wars.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Mace is obviously not more powerful than Yoda with the force, as Yoda is confirmed as being the most powerful jedi of his time. But he's stated as being close, on numerous occasions, and his displayed TK ability demonstrates greater force ability than anything Vader has ever done by a huge margin. Add in Vaapad and Shatterpoint, as well as the fact that Mace has no issue with using offensive powers against his foes, and Vader would get schooled in a force battle between the two. Really, and what is mace going to use as offensive powers? Force crush? Oh right how i forget that it too can be defended against by somebody 80% as powerful as sidious and vice versa, so its really up for debate, you make it sounds as if vader would let mace kill him so easily

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Prove up or shut up seeing you have yet to do either. Prove he isn't as powerful as mace seeing that he studied under the most powerful sith lord for 20 years.

ok Mr "shut up".

Mace has so much more experience than vader, he was on the council before anakin was even born. Mace is a legendary force user, and if Vader had not been BBQ'd, than he would have BECOME more powerfull than mace in the force. Vader is a half robot who breathes through metal lungs, eats through wires, and connects a metal tube to his ass in order to take a crap. When he became like this, he lost almost half of his force powers, and your saying hes more powerfull than a Human Jedi, with all limbs attatched, at his prime age, and who has legendary mastery of the force?

think again, but dont work yourself too hard, it might be a hazard.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Prove up or shut up seeing you have yet to do either. Prove he isn't as powerful as mace seeing that he studied under the most powerful sith lord for 20 years.

Oh my.

Lucas said that Vader as he appears in the OT is about 80 % as powerful as Sidious is. Well. Do you consider that ROTS Sidious is less than 80 % as powerful as Sidious in the OT? I doubt that. And Mace defeated ROTS Sidious.

Technically there isn't much that Vader could do to Mace Windu that ROTS Sidious was not capable of doing. To be precise: There is nothing Vader could do that ROTS Sidious wasn't capable off. The only thing you could possible argue that Vader is better with a lightsaber than ROTS Sidious (and I would even doubt that given his suit has greatly affected his speed and his dexterity).

Bottom line: It's far more likely that Mace will defeat Vader than vice versa because Mace is apparently not a slough when it comes to force powers and I doubt that I have to elaborate on his saber abilities once again. If he can defeat RotS Sidious I don't see how ANH Vader should be able to beat him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my.

Lucas said that Vader as he appears in the OT is about 80 % as powerful as Sidious is. Well. Do you consider that ROTS Sidious is less than 80 % as powerful as Sidious in the OT? I doubt that. And Mace defeated ROTS Sidious.
Wasn't he referring to ROTJ sidious? Confirm this with lightsnake because he has the quote

Originally posted by Darth_noodle
ok Mr "shut up".

Mace has so much more experience than vader, he was on the council before anakin was even born. Mace is a legendary force user, and if Vader had not been BBQ'd, than he would have BECOME more powerfull than mace in the force. Vader is a half robot who breathes through metal lungs, eats through wires, and connects a metal tube to his ass in order to take a crap. When he became like this, he lost almost half of his force powers, and your saying hes more powerfull than a Human Jedi, with all limbs attatched, at his prime age, and who has legendary mastery of the force?

think again, but dont work yourself too hard, it might be a hazard.

Do i need to remind you skill > experience? Look at anakin vs dooku in ROTS,

Ill get back to this later

EDIT\
@ Borbarad, the quote of vader being 80% of sidious came from according to TFN.net, empire of dreams which means that it was referring to sidious in the original trilogy

@Darth_noob

Vader didn't lose his strength in the force or his force powers, he only lost much of his potential

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Really, do we even know revans lightsaber form? Do we even know how good the kotor saber duelers are?
We do not know about the Light Saber Form that Revan uses when he wields a single Light Saber, though it might be a modified one. But he also was proficient in using Jar Kai combat style.

Now to understand that how good Revan was, we should look at the case of Jedi Master Kavar.

Kavar was said to have mastered several Light Saber Forms including Djem So and Juyo. He was the leader of Jedi Guardian faction in his time. Yet he was unable to overcome Malak in a saber duel. And Malak was in turn defeated by Revan in a duel involving Light Sabers.

So we do have an idea that how good was Revan. No one was able to defeat him in any form of combat in his time.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Hence i made that assumption,
Assumptions can be wrong.

OT Vader is not as good in dueling as you make it sound to be. To be fair! I doubt that he will be able to contend with Revan in a saber duel.

Provided that we already know that Revan was adept at Saber dueling and was labelled as a prodigy. And a person is not called a prodigy, unless he has shown oustanding prowess in the battle.

And add to this another factor, which is that the OT Vader is limited by his mechanical suit. While Revan has no such limitations and he can use his strong connection with the Force to further boost or augment his speed and dexterity.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Do i need to remind you skill > experience? Look at anakin vs dooku in ROTS
And yet it is speculated that Obi-Wan defeated Anakin because he had more experience and got the higher ground.

His experience and patience paid well against Anakin.

I know that experience is not everything but it does matters.

And one of the reasons that Dooku was overcome by Anakin easily is because of the Saber Form of his choice; Makashi, which did not proved to be highly effective against Djem So.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We do not know about the Light Saber Form that Revan uses when he wields a single Light Saber, though it might be a modified one. But he also was proficient in using Jar Kai combat style.

Now to understand that how good Revan was, we should look at the case of Jedi Master Kavar.

Kavar was said to have mastered several Light Saber Forms including Djem So and Juyo. He was the leader of Jedi Guardian faction in his time. Yet he was unable to overcome Malak in a saber duel. And Malak was in turn defeated by Revan in a duel involving Light Sabers.

So we do have an idea that how good was Revan. No one was able to defeat him in any form of combat in his time.

But since you brought up the issue that revan uses jar kai i will concede vader beating revan issue seeing that vader gets beaten badly by an experienced jar kai user.

And hadn't we settled in the malak vs vader thread that vader would beat malak in a saber duel though not easy? Im not saying vader is going to beat revan or anything but at the least contend with him then go down.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

OT Vader is not as good in dueling as you make it sound to be. To be fair! I doubt that he will be able to contend with Revan in a saber duel. Oh but he is, being stated that he fights in a lightsaber form that is extremely unpredictable which makes it very dangerous as well as for him to merge several lightsaber forms into a singular modified form pretty much takes skill.

My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply

I believe he CAN contend to revan, but might lose or vice versa because it IS debatable weather vader can beat revan in a pure saber duel. We simply have enough evidence to put vader to at the least contend with revan in a saber duel, your making it as if vader gets tooled easily.

My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Provided that we already know that Revan was adept at Saber dueling and was labelled as a prodigy. And a person is not called a prodigy, unless he has shown oustanding prowess in the battle. Anakin skywalker was also stated to be a prodigy, yet even despite being in the suit he still shows remarkable skills with the lightsaber such as throwing it a distance of 100 feet to slice fang zhar in an aircraft which was already airborne, or the fact that he was evenly matched with darth maul whom has been described as a very good saber duelist until of course maul altered his lightsaber form.

My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply but still lose
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And add to this another factor, which is that the OT Vader is limited by his mechanical suit. While Revan has no such limitations and he can use his strong connection with the Force to further boost or augment his speed and dexterity. And vader can't do the same? Despite vaders limitations he has fought opponents like the dark lady and maul whom had no limitations and were still able to contend with them, that alone shows vader DOES have skill in saber dueling despite the fact he is limited due to the suit.

The real point is vader CAN last against revan, weather he loses or not

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And yet it is speculated that Obi-Wan defeated Anakin because he had more experience and got the higher ground. Key word speculated. I can give you the quote if asked, but the ROTS novel stated obi wan knew the way anakin fought, he knew anakin head to toe, they have been in thousands of sparring matchs hence it was why obi wan was able to put up for so long.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

His experience and patience paid well against Anakin.
Experience with fighting agaisnt anakin.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And one of the reasons that Dooku was overcome by Anakin easily is because of the Saber Form of his choice; Makashi, which did not proved to be highly effective against Djem So. Can you find a source to prove that? Because the novel stated that count dooku's skills, mastery and experience could not contend with anakins skills.

Really, if djem so alone could defeat makashi as you imply, then how come AOTC anakin got easily tooled by dooku?

Since when djem so > makashi? Find a credible source to put this out

@ GahLakTus

It is good to see that you now listen with patience!

Originally posted by GahLakTus
And hadn't we settled in the malak vs vader thread that vader would beat malak in a saber duel though not easy? Im not saying vader is going to beat revan or anything but at the least contend with him then go down.
I can agree that Vader can contend with Revan.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Oh but he is, being stated that he fights in a lightsaber form that is extremely unpredictable which makes it very dangerous as well as for him to merge several lightsaber forms into a singular modified form pretty much takes skill.
Yes! Vader has always been a skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
My point: Vader's not going to get owned like you imply
I never said that Vader would get owned. He will surely put up a good fight.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
I believe he CAN contend to revan, but might lose or vice versa because it IS debatable weather vader can beat revan in a pure saber duel. We simply have enough evidence to put vader to at the least contend with revan in a saber duel, your making it as if vader gets tooled easily.
I realize that I did not used the right word in my previous post to explain my point but I will do that now.

Vader can contend with Revan but Revan will win after a hard struggle.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Anakin skywalker was also stated to be a prodigy, yet even despite being in the suit he still shows remarkable skills with the lightsaber such as throwing it a distance of 100 feet to slice fang zhar in an aircraft which was already airborne, or the fact that he was evenly matched with darth maul whom has been described as a very good saber duelist until of course maul altered his lightsaber form.
I have never doubted Vader's skill with a Light Saber.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
The real point is vader CAN last against revan, weather he loses or not
Fine!

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Really, if djem so alone could defeat makashi as you imply, then how come AOTC anakin got easily tooled by dooku?
No! Djem So alone is the factor here. In AOTC, Vader was a padawan and he used a Saber combat style in which he was not proficient against Dooku.

In short; Anakin used Jar Kai against Dooku but was defeated because he had not mastered Jar Kai.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Since when djem so > makashi? Find a credible source to put this out
Djem So works well for aggressive fighters and Anakin eventually was one and he mastered this form to possibly its highest degree.

As far as Makashi is concerned, even though it is considered to be good for Light Saber dueling, very few people have taken interest in it because it does have a weakness. That weakness was revealed when Anakin used a Djem So against him with great efficiency.

Check this information:

But the greatest flaw with this system of combat was that it could not withstand strikes from later styles which emphasized more powerful strokes over Makashi's elegance and precision. As shown during Dooku's fatal duel with Anakin that Makashi simply did not generate the necessary kinetic energy to meet Djem So (Skywalker's preferred style) on an even footing. The sheer raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power.

(Sources: Wookieepedia and ROTS Novel)

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Wasn't he referring to ROTJ sidious? Confirm this with lightsnake because he has the quote

Yes. He was. I know that. The question is if RotS Sidious = at least 80 % of RotJ Sidious = ANH Vader. Got my line of thought now?

I simply doubt that Vader has become equally powerful or more powerful compared to how powerful Sidious was in the PT. So he wouldn't be able to overcome Mace using the force since RotS Sidious was unable to do that. And I really doubt that he would be able to outduel Mace "Mr Vaapad" Windu in a lightsaber fight.

So I'd really like to know how ANH Vader should win this...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. He was. I know that. The question is if RotS Sidious = at least 80 % of RotJ Sidious = ANH Vader. Got my line of thought now?
Well ROTJ sidious is way more powerful than his ROTS incarnation, in empire betrayels he instantly kills 100 storm troopers with one blast of lightning while diverting the lightning from killing his own men, the same lightning which reduced 3 sith acolytes to bones in one hit. With vader because 4/5 as powerful as this sidious would likely mean that vader is powerful as of that state

Sidious is obviously much stronger in the force by the OT seeing that he has countless archives and has a museum which stores several sith and jedi holocrons.

But yes i do get your line of thought, and im not sure if he is but that doesn't mean he would go down at mace easily because in the duel between palpatine and mace windu, i have not seen palpatine using the force mid way during the duel, which vader has been shown to do on several occasions.

Originally posted by Borbarad

I simply doubt that Vader has become equally powerful or more powerful compared to how powerful Sidious was in the PT. So he wouldn't be able to overcome Mace using the force since RotS Sidious was unable to do that. And I really doubt that he would be able to outduel Mace "Mr Vaapad" Windu in a lightsaber fight.
Firstly theres no way vader would ever contend mace in a saber duel, i will agree here that he doesn't just get beaten, he gets owned due to shatterpoint which allows mace to see a flaw in vaders techniques.

Regarding the issue where palpatine was unable to use the force against mace windu, well there are several factors to consider, Ill list them here.
He had not use the force until he got struck down by mace windu
Im sure he has not used the force or lightsaber in a way which attacks or kills his opponents for 13 years, and that would mean his skills got rusty.

And im sure its safe to assume that sidious as of ROTS lacks the immense knowledge he has as of ROTJ and Dark empire.

The only attack i saw palpatine use was lightning against mace, and that was after he got beaten and lightning is an attack where it can be blocked by a lightsaber, i don't see how a telekenetical power can be deflected by vaapad the same way it can to lightning.


Originally posted by Borbarad

So I'd really like to know how ANH Vader should win this... Well there are several feats that he had accomplished with the force.

Firstly i would like to bring the issue regarding what happened to him when he got into the suit as of ROTS, im sure many of us should realise that only his potential was lost, his connection to the force and strength was still there.

He destroyed the emperors medical room in a fit of rage despite being in the suit for like a few minutes.
During the attack on the jedi temple before the suit, he lifts up a 3 storey statue and sent it flying at the council doors, I remember him taking down a tree larger than the pillar dooku took down as well as dismantling an entire bridge with the force and using the dismantled objects as shrapnel to inflict damage on roan shryne.

Now iv agreed mace would own vader in a saber fight and likely an all out fight, but in a strictly force fight, it can go either way because i have acknowledge very remarkable feats that mace windu has done.
However it wouldn't be easy for either of them to be the victor

As far as anything power related goes, force potential is the only branch that can be absolutely quantified (thanks to midi-chlorians), meaning that's the only branch of power that the 80% can refer to and make sense at the same time, and while that speaks a lot for his connection to the force, Sidious has him beat by miles in force knowledge and general experience, and as far as we can tell, pure hatred and anger, as well as willpower.

Mace Windu's force showings are miles above Vader's, and he has two particular advantages: Vaapad and Shatterpoint, which Vader doesn't share.

Vader is one of the weakest Dark Lords featured in the Mythos, and he would get schooled in a battle with Mace Windu.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
EDIT\
@ Borbarad, the quote of vader being 80% of sidious came from according to TFN.net, empire of dreams which means that it was referring to sidious in the original trilogy

@Darth_noob

Vader didn't lose his strength in the force or his force powers, he only lost much of his potential

Yes he lost much of his potential, which means even at his maximum potential (when he is suited), he cannt be as good as Mace in the force. Go back to breast feeding your daughter, retard.

Originally posted by Darth_noodle
Yes he lost much of his potential, which means even at his maximum potential (when he is suited), he cannt be as good as Mace in the force. Go back to breast feeding your daughter, retard. Losing his potential doesn't mean he gets weakened in the force, because he is 80% of ROTJ palpatine whom can defeat mace in a force fight.

Lol and now your attacking me despite the fact i didn't insult you in the last post? Why don't you stop fingering you mother?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No! Djem So alone is the factor here. In AOTC, Vader was a padawan and he used a Saber combat style in which he was not proficient against Dooku. So your saying a good djem so practitionar can beat dooku easily because it is the only factor? What about the users skill? What about the users proficiency?

Does that mean aayla secura, a master of djem so can beat count dooku when it's clear she cannot?

Is djem so one of the factors? yes but the ONLY factor? No.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

As far as Makashi is concerned, even though it is considered to be good for Light Saber dueling, very few people have taken interest in it because it does have a weakness. That weakness was revealed when Anakin used a Djem So against him with great efficiency. You know if djem so was the only factor as you imply it was, AOTC anakin should have no problem defeating dooku, yet he got tooled in the end.

Right its also due to skill and proficiency, and its MOSTLY on skill.

Take a rocket launcher, if you have very little skill using it would it be any good against using it on a mere puny infantry unit if he can easily evade due to your lack of skill?

Skill counts



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

But the greatest flaw with this system of combat was that it could not withstand strikes from later styles which emphasized more powerful strokes over Makashi's elegance and precision. As shown during Dooku's fatal duel with Anakin that Makashi simply did not generate the necessary kinetic energy to meet Djem So (Skywalker's preferred style) on an even footing. The sheer raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power.

(Sources: Wookieepedia and ROTS Novel)

The novel NEVER stated that djem so was the sole factor of dooku going down, hell i have the novel and i can type out the entire fight for your sake.

It stated anakins pure skill made dooku's knowledge of the force a jpke as well as the fact that his combat mastery, skill and experience are irrelevant to the raw power of anakin skywalker

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Losing his potential doesn't mean he gets weakened in the force, because he is 80% of ROTJ palpatine whom can defeat mace in a force fight.

Lol and now your attacking me despite the fact i didn't insult you in the last post? Why don't you stop fingering you mother?

ok sure ill stop fingering you mother.

Originally posted by Darth_noodle
ok sure ill stop fingering my mother. fixed

@ GahLakTuS

It was a typo error in my reply.

I actually wanted to say that Djem So is not the only factor that gave Anakin advantage over Dooku. But it did played a vital role.

No problem because i myself agree so.