Exar Kun Vs Anakin with a twist

Janus Marius

It's not in the rules, and certainly not a reasonable request anyways. We never have an instance where an individual can be judged purely on swordplay or purely on Force powers used; they're always used together. Saber fighting and Force capabilities do count as criteria for a win, but they shouldn't be held separately as if the combatants had to go with one or the other. They link up together.

Firstly, Kun is a "master swordsman" according to narration, which means he's at least top tier. Second, Anakin isn't a better duellist than Dooku; he's simply physically stronger and got one hell of a clever move on him. Dooku's noted as being the elder, wiser of the two and one more possessing Dark Side mastery and Light side mastery as well as being the only living master of a duelling lightsaber form. Saying that Anakin is better than Dooku (Or presuming that all of Anakin's opponents must be better than Dooku) is as accurate as saying TPM Obi-Wan > Darth Maul. In any other situation or scenario, Maul would have beat the crap out of Obi-Wan, and same with Dooku versus Anakin. This is pretty apparent to some; blasphemy to others.

Kun is noted as destroying Master Vodo in lightsaber combat twice, and Ulic, a saber veteran, is unable to take any advantage over him. That speaks for his saber mastery. In Force mastery he kills Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand and makes an entire building his thralls. Tosses around Jedi knights like garbage and makes the chancellor his sock puppet. He utilizes a Sith amulet which can multiply his power tenfold and more, and can use it to demolish flesh and stone as easy as he can move his hand. He even resists an attack made especially to strip Sith of their Force abilities.

That's quite a resume.

Why would he need distance? Kun's physically strong; strong enough to ward off Anakin's Djem So/Shien strikes. He's a master swordsman who can hold his own with all manner of opponents. And his Force powers work at any distance.

Again, you're amusing. So Anakin has virtually unlimited energy reserves and he can just slip into "teh zone" like its an overcoat and outfight a master swordsman with no effort, huh?

Sure, let me try this:

Kun is always in the zone, and he uses the Force to make Anakin bounce like a ball before using his amulet to blow off his remaining organic limbs.

Does this make me a nonlogical fanboy like you now?

Janus Marius

LS:

If Anakin doesn't have the power or ability to block a simple Force-push I don't see him having the ability to ward off a Force choke, which is simply telekinesis centered around one's throat.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo is only duel among several. Ulic and Ood are a different storyAs Janus stated, he fought Ulic to sate his ego. Otherwise he would've gone at "the pretender" with the same Sith techniques he used on the wyrm and Aleema.

EDIT: And dude; Ood turned into a tree after getting slapped away, IIRC. Not much of a conflict there.

Which is more a mark in Kun's favor than one against Odan.

He made the enemy desperate. Considering he'd only just learned the technique from another Jedi, the fact that he accomplished even that is notable.

a) That's Luke, not Yoda or Mace.
b) Assuming Luke recovered everything left over, he still lacks what Exar and the Massassi looted, and what was obliterated by the supernova. And I'm pretty sure the Jedi lost the majority of what was on Ossus, hidden or not.

Yeah. And in Star Wars, knowledge = power, as Obi-Wan proved.

As demonstrated... where, now?

Irrelevant misdirection.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's not in the rules, and certainly not a reasonable request anyways. We never have an instance where an individual can be judged purely on swordplay or purely on Force powers used; they're always used together. Saber fighting and Force capabilities do count as criteria for a win, but they shouldn't be held separately as if the combatants had to go with one or the other. They link up together.
It most certainly is reasonable considering most of the fights on this forum are separated into these 3 categories.

How do you quantify a master swordsman and compare that to an entirely different era? You have how many master swordsmen in the PT era? Oh I see. Now you're trying to rationalize the Dooku and Anakin fight. The better fighter won. How did he get a clever move on him? Because he was BETTER at that point, when he gave in to the dark side. Dooku's reserves were dropping while Anakin's were virtually unlimited.

How does beating Master Vodo make Kun super powerful? In fact, where has Vodo displayed ANYTHING resembling power, other than making his wooden stick resistant to lightsaber blows? I'm not arguing Kun's force abilities, which are firmly above Anakin's, so don't pretend that I am. Instead try to overcome your own ego and bias towards everything non PT, and read other people's text.

Strong enough? How can you possibly guage that? And Anakin isn't physically strong? I love how strength only applies to Kun in this case. Yea IM definitely the fanboy. Tell me, which force powers of his are going to work at a close distance if they are engaged in a lightsaber duel?

Anakin has unlimited stamina in the rules while Kun does not. Assuming they're equals in saber combat, Kun will be worn out Dooku style, while Anakin won't. Notice how i'm STRICTLY speaking about a lightsaber duel.

Sure, that would work if:
1. Kun automatically starts off throwing around his amulet blasts. Considering he never used it against other jedi, there's no reason to assume he'll just throw it out. Unless of course, you're Janus, where nothing is illogical
2. Kun doesn't engage Anakin in a lightsaber duel. From what we have seen, that is his preferred method of fighting, so he can taunt his opponent. This is more logical than Kun going in guns blazing.

1.After reading your vomit, I can logically assume that:
You don't really read anything outside of your own text, or anything that involves PT characters.
2. You make illogical arguments for Kun such as (omg hes gonna go blasting his amulet), when it's contradictory to Kun's style
3. You calling other people fanboys when it's clear that you throw out all logic when the PT era is involved (in case you didn't get the memo, it would make you a fanboy).
4. Your assumptions that I'm a fanboy are unfounded and plain incorrect, especially since I've never liked Anakin, nor have ever shown any bias towards him. I, unlike you, can debate star wars objectively.
However, I'm looking forward to your psuedointellectual psychobabble, dr laura.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
As Janus stated, he fought Ulic to sate his ego. Otherwise he would've gone at "the pretender" with the same Sith techniques he used on the wyrm and Aleema.
he was there to destroy a potential threat to him, plain and simple. Where's the ego stroking there? As noted, Kun was equally unable to best Ulic as Ulic was unable to best Kun

And beforehand, Kun seems pretty willing to engage him in a duel...where's the ego sating involved there? Especially when Kun's on a bit of a tight schedule.

Perhaps I was unclear: Odan proved to be utterly worthless in a fight with the Ancient Sith and considering he just stands there when a guy screams at him to pick up his lightsaber until Ooroo sacrifices himself.

He made them willing to fight on and got the Daragons killed. This isn't screaming to me any of Odan's competence

One of whom led great advances to the recovery of lost knowledge, including the holocrons of Ood Bnar and Vodo Baas, had access to the Great Holocron, which held the knowledge of the Jedi Order through its 25,000 year history, etc etc.

Palpatine's the one who recovered the former from Yavin 4 and Luke takes possession of it later. the latter would indeed be gone for good.
What was lost there, though, was recovered over the years. The Jedi devoted nearly a thousand years to it, from 3000 ABY to 2000 ABY.

Might as well give Jocasta Nu a seat amongst the gods then.
And without great Force Power, knowing a lot still doesn't help you much. There isn't a single appearance of ODan when he shows himself to have a shred of the abilities Mace, Luke, Yoda or Dooku do. Impressive? Yes. One of the best old time Jedi? Yes. His death being enough to establish superiority over people like Mace and Yoda? No.

When Anakin fights rampaging Gen'Dai who nearly kill him, Dark Jedi who make him fight for his life, Jensaari, that kind of thing.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
he was there to destroy a potential threat to him, plain and simple. Where's the ego stroking there? As noted, Kun was equally unable to best Ulic as Ulic was unable to best KunIf Exar had wanted to kill Ulic quickly and with minimal risk, he would have attempted to do so with his new Dark side powers. You'll recall that he floored Aleema - who while being relatively weak, knew far more Sith techniques than Ulic - in an instant to get her out of the way.

I never said Kun was trying to sate his ego here. But all he and Ood do is cross sabers before the Jedi turns himself into a tree.

It was his first time in pitched battle, LS - he was young and inexperienced at that point. I doubt that a thousand years later he'd have the same problem.

And I'm not saying I don't believe you, but do you have the scans?

I haven't seen the comic in a while, so maybe my memory is rusty, but I remember Odan being taught of battle meditation just before the fight. I believe he made the enemy so desperate and disorganized that they just threw everything they had at the Republic. That pretty much won the battle, if resulting in two civilian casualties.

Considering he managed to have any effect with it, and while flying a starfighter no less, there's nothing incompetent about him.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

Wasn't most of what Kun acquired destroyed by the purging of Yavin?

Who said he's "superior" to these guys? I don't recall stating that he could take any of them in combat. But do I think he's more knowledgeable? That he has more techniques at his disposal? Yes, definitely.

None of which have any relevance. He never successfully repels an offensive Force attack, which is the entire point.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
If Exar had wanted to kill Ulic quickly and with minimal risk, he would have attempted to do so with his new Dark side powers. You'll recall that he floored Aleema - who while being relatively weak, knew far more Sith techniques than Ulic - in an instant to get her out of the way.
If Exar could have killed Ulic quickly, he would have. He's there to do kill his potential rivals and he's apparently trying to kill Ulic and vice versa through their duel.
What does he really have to be gained through ego here? Kun's the more powerful of the two, sure, but he would definitely not just walk over Ulic.

They cross sabers and then the Massassi interfere, to be precise, before the whole 'tree' thing.

Second time, actually, and apparently it's his last time in a pitched battle since he devotes himself to never participating in such a thing again.
It's also apparently Memit Nadill's first time in a horrific bloody war...unlike Odan, he was actually useful through the battle and didn't get numerous men horrifically slaughtered by not fighting.

Fall of the Sith Empire, issues 4-5.

Last I checked, to a Jedi, that's pretty dang unacceptable...and my memory is also rusty, but Odan made them hurl themselves into battle, thinking they were done for, they simply resolved to take as many enemies with them.
Proper battle meditation in the hands of someone like Oppo Rancisis, Bastila, Yoda, etc, would make the enemy lose heart, rather than fight harder

he achieved the opposite result he wanted, got numerous soldiers killed on both sides and civilians, without need, and when was he piloting a starship? My memory is similarly rusty..

The idea of 'knowledge being lost' is a bit less definite than TOTJ made it seem-a great, great deal was recovered before Yoda's time

Nope. Kun made sure to put it away securely and Palpatine recovered it on archaeological digs

Than Yoda? Somehow I seriously doubt that. More techniques and knowledge?

And very little of that matters if Odan can't hold his own in a fight against them-and he can't.

PRetty sure he does against the Jensaari...I'll have to double check that.

Janus Marius

DS:

So because every third thread has someone going:

A versus B

1. Saber only
2. Force only
3. Both

... Suddenly means its a rational approach to all versus debates? So preserving the status quo and appealing to majority constitute a good reason?

Or are you missing my point- that all versus matches must presume that force and saber use is allowed, or else we have no basis to argue the characters on? Nowhere in the in-universe sources are Force users divorced from Force powers or saber powers.

You quantify "master swordsman" by context, not by comparing it to another era by numbers alone. For sure, PT era has more apparent "master swordsman", if you take third party perspectives and sheer number of sources into consideration. By that kind of logic, there's less then a dozen Jedi shown during the Hyperspace Wars and none of them fought as many battles as Clone Wars era Jedi. zOMG! They could never match such prestige!

The context is that Exar Kun is a match for Ulic Qel-Droma for the first minute or so of their fight. He's more than a match for his own master anda respected Jedi Master Vodo, as verified twice. He's also slaughtered a few no-names with his blade, though that's not exactly a duelling trait worth noting. Bottom line is that Exar Kun is best of the best in his own era, and is indeed a "master swordsman" for whatever that's worth, and was undefeated in saber combat save for a single defeat in a sparring lesson before he became a dark lord.

And mind you, right after that he defeated Vodo and remained undefeated since. A far cry from Anakin who was in "teh zone" and couldn't hack up Obi-Wan. Anakin fights his former mentor for over ten and a half minutes, while Exar Kun batters his for fun and then puts an end to him when he's finally lost patience.

Exar Kun >>>>>> Anakin Skywalker

You're missing something entirely; the winner is not always the better fighter. Obi-Wan as of TPM was far inferior to Maul. Obi-Wan was technically inferior to Anakin in RotS. Yoda was far from inferior to Sidious yet he lost. Anakin's never shown to be the "only living master" of a lightsaber form made specifically for lightsaber dueling. Anakin's never shown Force prowess above or even on par with Dooku. And if you watch the saber match, it's pretty much even until Anakin leans in and does his wondermove. Nothing else he did during that match made him a superior duellist. He simply did a smart move and won. Lucky him. If Dooku had choked his ass or fried him and hadn't been so busy incapacitating Obi-Wan, he'd be dead.

Again with the "ANakin has teh unlimitud rezeervs!" shit. Substantiate this with a canon source or STFU.

Context, DS. Chances are, when you beat a respected Jedi Master who can take on saber users using only his stick (and usually win), someone who taught you everything you know, and considering that you beat the shit out of him twice, the second time with hardly any effort... Well. I suppose that makes someone at least respectable in duelling.

Unless you're claiming that Vodo is some kind of idiot and weakling who is unable to hold his own in combat. He obviously had the faith in his own abilities to use his walking stick against a Dark Lord of the Sith who just murdered Odan-urr with his own powers.

There's also that part in narration when Vodo first duels Exar Kun about his "skill borne of long experience". I suppose he got all that knowledge sitting around eating bon-bons.

Exar Kun is proven incredibly strong in the comics, DS. You should read them sometime. For one, he's massively built and easily as tall if not taller than anyone else in the series. He picks up a grown sentient by his skull at one point with one hand and holds him there effortlessly. He smashes through other Jedi's defenses using this strength as well, such as Vodo and Crado.

Since when do any of them have a distance limitation, DS? Dooku could Force choke Obi-Wan at point blank range while back-kicking Anakin into a wall with no effort.

Exar Kun has shown to be quite a bit more powerful in the Force than Dooku, and certainly more aggressive and powerful in general.

Anakin keeps regenerating his stamina; not that he has unlimited stamina. There is a difference. Anakin with regenerated stamina cannot be stronger than he was originally; he is simply consistant with that stamina level. However, Kun may lose stamina and tire, but that's inevitable. No one is agruing that Kun is going to win; simply that he isn't going to get slaughtered by Anakin's "superiority".

Assuming they are equals. I really don't see Exar Kun having trouble with Obi-Wan Kenobi though.

And the fight is not limited to just lightsaber duelling. I wonder how much good "regenerating stamina" is going to work when Kun just unleashes blast after blast his way? Or buries him under the torn debris of the ceiling?

Apparently sarcasm is beyond you.

I'd be surprised if you could logically assume anything. I notice that you didn't put "logically conclude" or any such phrase, merely "assume". And in any case, you're wrong. I do read what everyone else has to say, and I've read all of the PT-era books. I doubt you have. In fact, there's nothing you've ever shown anything but passing knowledge in; not the games, nor the comics, novels, etc. A lot of the information you have comes second-hand, and most of it is wrong or blown up by your own biased interpretations. You can't even name sources for anything you've stated, can you?

Illogical? Sure, Kun may indulge in saber combat for the first round or two, but as soon as he notes that Anakin is undying, he'll start frying the little bastard left and right. Unless you want to claim that Exar Kun is "too arrogant" to use his amulet? That'd be a laugh. Talk about speculating out of your ass.

Irrelevant misdirection.

Odd, you're showing bias towards him right now. Or could it be that you're just opposed to anything I support? In any case, you can't debate objectively; you don't even know the meaning of the word. You have no argument, you have no sources for your side, and you thrive on picking apart what I say because you're absolutely jealous of everyone else's ability ot do what you can't- debate. Now, go piss off, DS.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:

So because every third thread has someone going:

A versus B

1. Saber only
2. Force only
3. Both

... Suddenly means its a rational approach to all versus debates? So preserving the status quo and appealing to majority constitute a good reason?
No, but as you notice Janus, I am personally separating the fight into two aspects; light saber combat and force powers, and arguing strictly for light saber combat. You can sit there and tell me "Well the two could go together and shouldn't be split up", but this is the argument I'm making, that Anakin could take Kun in a saber duel, not a force duel.

What force powers go into saber combat Janus? The obvious quick reflexes and precog? No seriously, what force powers? You could give the example that Dooku used force powers during his fight with Obiwan and Anakin and that he clearly displayed force mastery, whereas I can say in teh z0ne Anakin totally wtfpwned him in saber combat and was considered better than him once he touched the dark side.

My point was that I don't understand what your point was by calling Kun a "master swordsman". We know he's a master swordsman, now what?

Did I ever argue this point? Of course not, I have the comics and I know this. But Vodo wasn't exactly a powerhouse and neither was Sylvar..

I cannot believe you are arguing this point when you damn well why Anakin couldn't beat Obiwan. Judging by what we know, Vodo isn't half the jedi with a saber/stick that Obiwan (who was possibly the greatest soresu master ever) was. And yet again Anakin pwned Dooku who was easily one of the greatest jedi/sith ever.

Wait, because Kun beat a relative weakling who had nothing to his name except a wooden stick, while Anakin couldn't beat the greatest soresu master ever, Kun>>>>>Anakin? Gee, lets not talk about bias Janus. Kun>Anakin with the force, this much is clear. But if they had a lightsaber battle, I highly doubt Exar Kun would have this.

So you're bringing up the exception rather than the rule, nice. Yoda and Sidious were equals and they stalemated, which was confirmed by Lucas, so your point is moot. Nobody was ever arguing Anakin's force prowess in comparison to Dooku, so that's irrelevant. Read the ROTS novelization, unless of course you believe that it was totally contradictory to the movie, while it really describes what Dooku was thinking. Once Anakin touched the dark side, he became superior to Dooku.

Read the fight between Dooku and Anakin in ROTS novelization. Not to mention, why in the world would I have to substantiate it? It's either unlimited, or limited..

Respectable and powerhouse are two different terms. Your master could be a mediocre saber master at best. Beating your master does not make you powerful. Otherwise all of the dark jedi converts who killed their masters would be "powerhouses".

Oh right, because faith equates to power. That's a wonderful argument. I guess Anakin was superman because he thought he was superman/because he thought he could overthrow the chancellor. Guess what, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Vodo was anything other than an average Jedi, because all of the proof states the opposite.

I didn't know experience=skill. If that was the case, 800 year old Yoda would have wiped the floor with 63 year old Sidious.

I never argued that Kun WASNT strong Janus, so why bring it up? I believe he's listed as 6'3? Obviously he was strong, but so was Anakin. But the problem is we can't exactly quantify how strong they were if they used the force to boost their strength..

I didn't see Dooku doing it to Anakin? I didn't see it in their fight in AOTC either. Was Kun a master of force choke? Did he know it? Assuming he can break through Anakin's defenses with the force, then he wins the force fight. WHat's he going to do, force pull him into the lightsaber?

There was nobody arguing Kun's force superiority over Dooku. Kun's force abilities are among the best, it's the lightsaber abilities that are in question.

Nobody argued that Anakin was going to "slaughter" Kun. But he was good enough to break through Dooku's defenses (whatever your rationalization is). Read the fight between Anakin and Dooku, I believe its in the ROTS novelization..

Darth Sexy

continued..

Again, in saber combat or in an all out fight? He would probably have difficulty breaking through Obiwan's defenses but would eventually. Dooku couldn't break them in pure saber combat.

Good god Janus do you read? I know it's not limited to lightsaber dueling. In an all out fight, Exar Kun would win, provided he doesn't engage in saber combat. If he DOES, it's a whole new ball game.

Not your sarcasm Janus.

What a wonderful and yet useless post. I don't claim to have all the sources and in fact, I probably have less than everybody elses. You accuse me of using other people's arguments or ideas, so prove it. What I use are my own ideas coming from the sources that I do have. TOTJ comics, the movies, the games, and a few other books. But you don't seem to have any ability to argue objectively when it comes to star wars. I'm glad you doubt this this and that. Unfortunately I care very little about what you "doubt" or what you "Think". If you want to get emotional, do it to the mirror.. If you want to debate, do it logically and objectively. Don't come out saying "omg kuns amuletz!!!$!$".

LOL you're lecturing ME about speculating? I've proven that Exar Kun's preferred method is the lightsaber. It's also obvious that Kun has NEVER used his amulet blasts in ANY other instance. But all of a sudden he's going to come out blasting? I guess the idea of "practice what you preach" is beyond you. For Kun to start using his amulet blasts, he's going to have to get some distance between him and Anakin. Better said than done. Furthermore, don't tell me what I'm going to "claim", because it makes you sound like a tool. Debate logically/objectively, or shut up.

I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. When I say "Anakin could take Exar Kun in lightsaber combat", you respond with "Exar Kun would win in an all out fight/fight with the force". When I say "if it gets to a lightsaber fight, it'll be close", you respond with the retarded statement of "well Kun is just going to blast his amulet". You might be a good general debater, but when it comes to debating star wars objectively, you're dumber than a woodpecker in a concrete forest. Now please Janus, don't tell me to go piss off. Because you can't debate logically, you project your pathetic insecurities on me. Denial doesn't work, not even for a forum nerd like you. Your pathetic personal attacks make me laugh though. "But youre doing it too omg!!". You're breaking my heart Janus, learn to debate objectively or shut the hell up.

Janus Marius

You seem to miss the point- no lightsaber duel is going to be complete without access to the Force. And while I note that you haven't exactly proved Anakin the better of the two duellists (Since they can both effectively be argued to be "master swordsmen" wink

Exar Kun is clearly head and shoulders above Anakin in Force mastery and Force relics. So the win goes to the better of the two overall more often than not.

Even you can appreciate this simple logic, I hope.

You can be so silly sometimes, DS. So suddenly lightsaber combat has absolutely nothing to do with use of Force? You mean all those Jedi train for years to "use the Force" and then just only rely on precog (if they have it) and reflexes? That's hilarious. You should do stand-up. Only, as the comedian's prop.

I mean, have you seen this before?

http://i11.tinypic.com/6fg1pvb.gif

So I guess old Dooku logged out of "Saber fight" mode and went into "zOMG Furce God!!! mod" mode and min/maxed his wisdom and charisma until he could WTFpwn two of the best Jedi the Order had to offer, huh?

Cuz there's no way that he did that while lightsaber fighting. He had to have done that during the intermission, because according to DS lightsaber fighting cannot possibly happen unless all Force abilities such as precognition and reflex are suspended.

There are many reasons why you're an amateur, DS. This is one of them.

Which dissolves your assertion that he's some kind of noob who's going to be smoked by Anakin swinging his glowstick. Exar Kun is very clearly a lightsaber prodigy in his timeframe by admission of his own master, by narration, and by feat of arms. If it requires him leaping through time and WTFpwning Anakin Skywalker to convince you, I can't provide that. You have to either accept that Exar Kun was the best (or among the best) duellists of his time and agree that this makes him capable of giving Anakin fits if not outright tooling him or just stop pissing and moaning, because it bores me.

Vodo isn't a "powerhouse"? Could you elaborate on this claim? Or is this another DS "Vague but there I declared it so it's somehow true" assertions?

Of course I know why: Obi-Wan was only marginally worse, yet he outthought Anakin and let Anakin defeat himself. This same Obi-Wan would have absolutely no chance against a Sith Lord who tools Jedi masters as a hobby. If you can't accept this, you're either a closet Anakin fanboy or (as I suspect) simply being contrary to me because you got banned at my forum for being an irrational antagonistic socking troll. Either accept this or move on, because I don't have the time to spoon-feed you the truth whenever you can't happen upon it for yourself.

LMFAO!

You want to substantiate how Obi-Wan Kenobi is somehow the "best Soresu practitioner" in the last four thousand years? Do you have the iron balls to follow this assertion up with proof, or should I accept it simply because your small mind accepts it as true? Seriously, DS, if this is all you have to offer, I could find more stimulating debates by moving to the Video Game Versus forum where people think Goku can beat everything up to Jesus Christ on steroids. Really, I hope you are just warming up.

Anakin defeated Dooku through use of a clever move and far superior in-close strength. He never was noted as being Dooku's superior in Force mastery or lightsaber mastery; all evidence and anecdotes supports the opposite. So you can stop misconstruing this claim and substantiate it via context for once; Anakin beat Dooku because Dooku didn't think Anakin would strongarm him and hack off his hands in-close at that moment. Anakin never successfully defeated Dooku using just the Force, and he sure as hell didn't riposte-parry-melee Dooku to death. I imagine I could defeat Dooku if I pulled his hands forward and did a wrist lock on him. I bet even you could do that. Does that make you Das Uber Duellist? No, it doesn't. So stop using this circumstantial victory as a definate Anakin >>> Dooku, mkay? Thanks.

This is part of the reason why you're a substandard debater, DS; you strawman and draw conclusions from your own unsupported assertions and then claim them as fact.

1. You cite Vodo as a "relative weakling" despite his strength in the Force and the narration's own nod to his considerable experience. You do not substantiate this claim; merely make it and expect it to be gospel.

2. You call Obi-Wan Kenobi the "greatest Soresu master ever" without backing up this claim nor citing how Soresu is somehow more difficult than defeating a Jedi master who can floor people with a walking stick while they possess lightsabers.

Proof? Source? Exact words?

Really, Yoda and Sidious technically didn't defeat one another; Yoda was unfortunately redeposited at the bottom of the Senate chamber while Sidious gripped the handrail like he'd fallen and couldn't get up. I don't need GL to do director commentary to see this in the movie. If you want to believe something else, I suggest you go ahead and stop making wild claims.

The bottom line is that Yoda was able to overcome Sidious' best efforts at Force use AND lightsaber use. Sidious can't say the same vice versa. Obviously, Yoda was the superior fighter in the fight. And yet technically he still lost the battle. Whether it was exhaustion, circumstance, bad winds, etc, we could only speculate. The bottom line is that Yoda was beaten by fate more than by Sidious' superiority. And this goes the same for Anakin. Either accept this or stop arguing, because you've proven time and again you can't counter my points; only attack them with haphazard pseudo logic and wild unsupported assertions, neither of which win an argument.

On a related sidenote, you also attack me for being "biased" and "unreasonable" yet you have never provided me with an objective and fair viewpoint complete with proof and valid argument structure; only bullshit and nonsense which has spurred me to refute your silliness. If you're bitter because I can see through your shit, well... too bad. I suggest you learn from a cat's basic mistake and either cover up your shit better or don't shit at all.

Janus Marius

You mean the novelisation is somehow superior to the movie as canon? Cuz, we all know that's not true. The novelisation, which is consistantly inaccurate and doesn't portray the movie at all, and is based on an earlier version of the script where Dooku pretty much throws the fight thinking he'll be given amnesty, doesn't convince me. I didn't see Kit Fisto's head on the desk in the movie, ergo it didn't happen. And I'm inclined to think the same thing of anything else that was quoted in the movie as true, especially since Stover is wanton in his exaggerations and inaccurate in his depiction of the movie. If you want to argue this, I suggest you go shout it on a streetcorner, because I'm not convinced. Nothing in SW canon states that I have to accept everything in a contradictory piece of C-canon as fact when the movie hints nor shows any such thing. The idea that Anakin Skywalker has "unlimited energy reserves" is such a piece of hyperbole and bullshit that I'm surprised anyone else would assert it... well,save you. You'd argue that Anakin Skywalker could cure cancer with his backsweat if it fit your horrid argument.

No, they wouldn't be. Most dark jedi converts in the series killed their masters through unexpected treachery. Even in Shatterpoint when Depa freaks out and murders people left and right, Mace still doesn't kill his own former padawan. Killing one's apprentice isn't as easy as it seems when they ambush you. But you can still defeat them through superior skill if the situation isn't totally against you.

Nothing was against Vodo when he approached Exar Kun in the senatorial chambers, save for the fact that his nemesis was not his former inept and headstrong padawan but a Dark Lord of the Sith second to none in this timeframe. Exar Kun dispatched Vodo the instant he was convinced that his former master would not join his cause. This is a far cry from Anakin who hated Obi-Wan from the word "go" and was unable to dispatch him and ended up being an amputee. And again, if you think Vodo is somehow a noob because he can force a walking stick to be "more powerful" than a lightsaber according to narration (And yet Exar Kun broke through such power twice) and Vodo was able to find balance points in fighters and disable them using his walking stick as noted in narration...... Well, please feel free to provide instances, proof, and valid argument structures.

Until then, STFU, because your rampant asserting and trolling only makes you look a bigger fool.

I'm not quite sure I understand your stance, DS. You expect me to believe that a Jedi Master who had taught Exar Kun everything he knew as a Jedi and who had some extraordinary powers as a Jedi master and had trained many in combat and had, as the narration claimed, considerable experience and was adept at finding one's balance and exploiting it.... was somehow an overconfident dumbass with no power whatsoever and even though Exar Kun tooled him with hardly any effort, Kun must somehow be weaker than Anakin Skywalker for it?

Oh, okay. I get it.

Well, in that light, Dooku was overconfident that he thought he could defeat Anakin Skywalker in combat by himself and he got dead. Thus, Anakin Skywalker sucks because he defeated Dooku who was overconfident and must somehow be a dumbass because he hasn't had four novels, a movie series and a comic book line dedicated to him.

Yeah, I can swing with your skewed logic, DS. It's amusing how I need to prove much more yet you claim to have the comics. Tell me- can you provide the page number for the duel sequence between Kun and Vodo? All of them?

Ridiculous. You're confusing general age with experience specific to duelling. Jedi in Vodo's time wore battle armor and trained in groups. Yoda is shown mostly teaching padawans to think outside of the box and to deflect laser bolts from a remote which is about as deadly as a poorly nailed cupboard door. And even more amusing is that Yoda did wipe the floor with Sidious; the latter was lucky to manage to grab a handrail, or else he would have been ****ed.

Anyways, to refocus your strawmanning back into a rational light, the narration cites Vodo's skill and experience as being the reason why he unbalanced Kun and defeated him initially. This clearly shows us that Vodo is no "noob" to fighting and that he can down people when he needs to. If you need novels and comics and NEC claiming he's a sabergod well... TFB. I don't have that. Either accept it or give it up.

No, you've argued that somehow Anakin's strength is superior to Kun's or enough to give him an edge in combat; I want you to substantiate this claim or STFU. Clear enough for you?

Dooku didn't Force choke anyone in AOTC.... this doesn't mean he couldn't. Clearly, he could Force choke Obi-Wan and throw him around like a ragdoll. I don't see Anakin being superior to Obi-Wan in the Force; especially during a Force duel. If Anakin Skywalker can't beat Obi-Wan Kenobi in a Force push in mid-battle, I don't see how you expect him to hold up to Exar Kun, who swats around Jedi with his ego before he even has to draw his lightsaber.

LMFAO!

Obviously you're the master of SW Lore, DS. Let me clarify something for you:

Kun's Force ghost, while left in isolation for thousands of years and virtually insane, possessed the body of Kyp Durron and was able to Force Choke Luke's Jedi apprentices with little effort. Said apprentices are also noted as being trained to resist Force TK as all Jedi are trained to do; yet they were overpowered. And this is Kun's midi-chlorian-less spirit. Think about this for a minute before you spout off another uneducated assertion!

Did he know it. LMFAO. Yeah, I'm sure no Force user is capable of the simple TK needed to choke someone. Yeah, the idea of constricting their throat is a mystery known only by ancients and Anakin Skywalker, whereas all sorts of Force user augment their speed, push buttons, close doors, deactivate droids, control minds, and control the spin of die to effect a game of chance through sheer Force TK.... Yeah, absolutely. No way Kun would ever know such a secret art

LMFAO!

Why would he have to? If he can overpower Anakin, Anakin's at his mercy. Choke him, blast him, throw him about, shock him, etc. Doesn't matter. Fight's over at that point.

lol. You really don't know much, do you? Obi-Wan's Soresu doesn't take initiative. That means he can't win the battle unless Kun idiotically exposes himself or leaves an opening. And since Obi-Wan doesn't do Dark Side powers like Force choke, I can see Exar Kun either tooling the shit out of Obi-Wan with masterful duelling or simply choking him to death and hurling him into oblivion like a flea. The fight is not going to be Exar Kun flurrying stupidly at Obi-Wan who is somehow going to be able to block all of it without being killed. Don't be daft, DS.

I do read. And no, it wouldn't change if he engages in lightsaber combat.

Wait, you just admitted you don't have all the sources and the facts and that you have less than everybody else, and yet I have to prove that you use other people's ideas and arguments? WTF? So you somehow came to those conclusions without copping other people's ideas? You developed those in the void of ignorance that you admit to have? That's the most laughable thing I've ever heard.

Here, DS.... Take this electric toaster, plug it in and go play with it in the bathtub.

No, you haven't.

Janus Marius

No, it's not "obvious" simply because you claim it. Either prove up or shut up. I prefer both, really. Prove up and then shut up please.

Um, no. For one, there's no prep time for using the blasts. If you read the comics, you'd see that Exar Kun starts using them while he's being squeezed in the beast's vicelike grip. He uses it several times while moving about, and later uses it on Freedon Nadd without warning. There's no "chant time" or prep time. He can use it as he needs it. The idea that he can't fire one off when he needs to is ridiculous, nor does he need distance. He's shown firing blasts at the sith monster while very close to it.

Well, I guess your pathetic argument is done. Crushed. Please, feel free to piss right off and don't reply back. I'd relish in the thought of you actually realizing when you're beaten and fleeing into your stench-filled corner.

Janus Marius

Btw, DS I brought your cup:

http://i11.tinypic.com/4q3ump4.jpg

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You seem to miss the point- no lightsaber duel is going to be complete without access to the Force. And while I note that you haven't exactly proved Anakin the better of the two duellists (Since they can both effectively be argued to be "master swordsmen" wink

Exar Kun is clearly head and shoulders above Anakin in Force mastery and Force relics. So the win goes to the better of the two overall more often than not.

Even you can appreciate this simple logic, I hope.
Well Janus, let me first start off by saying that I expected you to ***** and moan to yourself for quite a while, but after reading this and the fact that you had to post your 'internet pwnage' of tdtd, this is going to be hilarious.. Now... Exar Kun is head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities... But um... Dooku was head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities.. Sidious was head and shoulders above Mace in force abilities. There goes your case.

That's hilarious Janus, what's more hilarious is your esteemed career as a customer service rep by day, and mediocre internet debater by night.

Oh right Janus, and when it became a 1 on 1 fight and Anakin immersed himself in the dark side, Dooku=pwd.

Your opinion is duelly noted and based on your amazing objective debating skills for the star wars universe, it means zero..

Golly gee Janus, after all that alleged "pwning" and bragging about it on EOD, I would have thought you learned how to read. Nowhere did I even ASSERT that Kun was a noob in any way shape or form. But suddenly Kun being a master swordsman means he>Anakin (by your own admission or fanboyism, your pick). Pissing and moaning? Judging by your obvious anger and victory thread, I'd say you were crying and bitching over this for some time. Furthermore, I never said Anakin would wtfpwn him in saber combat. I said that not only would it be difficult for Kun, but Anakin very likely can win. Great reading skills Janice..

I don't need to elaborate Janus. Nothing he did made him anything but average. "But DS he was like the BEST in da 0rder LOL". Yes Janice...It would be up to YOU to prove that Vodo was anything more than an average Jedi because the comics state otherwise.

The circumstances of the Anakin fight are different than the rest. Stop playing stupid. Obiwan beat him because he TAUGHT him every move and knew Anakin backwards and forwards. I don't think you'd know the truth if it socked you in the face, judging by your arguments here and there. Except here, people can actually argue back without the fear of being canned. But I'm glad this last quote WASNT a completly obvious statement. Stop talking about your forum as if you upset me in any way, shape, or form.

Did I say the best, or did I say one of the best soresu users ever? Your ignorance and fanboyism are evident. Trust me Janus, as a self proclaimed god of debating, you sound like an angry, irrational little girl, who sits there lying to herself. If all I had to offer is "this", you wouldn't spend days trying to think of a comeback to an actually logical argument, then brag about it to make your fellow internet nerds think you're god.

Anakin defeated Dooku because by the time he immersed himself in the dark side, he became better than Dooku. I'll get this from lightsnake, I think Anakin went from level 8 to level 9. You call it a good move, I call it a good move by an opponent that finally overcome his obstacle. I LOVE your rationalization for Anakin beating Dooku though. That shit is hilarious, you crack me up sir. I NEVER even stated that Anakin was anywhere near Dooku in force abilities as well. Anakin>>>Dooku? Good lord Janus, I thought you have to have considerable reading comprehension skills to be an esteemed customer service rep.

Darth Sexy

Again, after reading ALL of your star wars post, you exert a unique type of fanboyism and denial, which really makes me understand (or assume) why you left this forum in the first place.

What the hell does considerable experience even mean? You care to quantify that? And I cite Vodo as a relative weakling because his sole achievement is making his stick harder than a saber. Nothing points to him being a powerhouse, no matter what your minute brain wants to believe.

yes, he made a walking stick strong as a saber and floored his PADAWAN. This somehow makes him more powerful than Obiwan. Talk about illogical fanboyism and utter stupidity.

Nobody here cares what you need since you like to either argue against canon sources, or ignore them. That fight was a stalemate, the end.

Yoda was the superior fighter? I guess so since he possibly disarmed Sidious and Sidious had the ability to get a HUGE distance between himself and Yoda. Yoda "lost" before he was even born, we know this. The fight however, was a stalemate. So I'll take George Lucas' commentary of the fight over Janus' stupidity anyday.

Objective and fair? By saying that Exar Kun would wtfpwn Anakin with the force, and would go the distance with Anakin in saber combat, i'm NOT being objective? Jesus Janus I can see why you're in so much damn denial. Your posts are nothing short of humorous. I'll finish the rest of your crap later.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You mean the novelisation is somehow superior to the movie as canon? Cuz, we all know that's not true. The novelisation, which is consistantly inaccurate and doesn't portray the movie at all, and is based on an earlier version of the script where Dooku pretty much throws the fight thinking he'll be given amnesty, doesn't convince me. I didn't see Kit Fisto's head on the desk in the movie, ergo it didn't happen. And I'm inclined to think the same thing of anything else that was quoted in the movie as true, especially since Stover is wanton in his exaggerations and inaccurate in his depiction of the movie. If you want to argue this, I suggest you go shout it on a streetcorner, because I'm not convinced. Nothing in SW canon states that I have to accept everything in a contradictory piece of C-canon as fact when the movie hints nor shows any such thing. The idea that Anakin Skywalker has "unlimited energy reserves" is such a piece of hyperbole and bullshit that I'm surprised anyone else would assert it... well,save you. You'd argue that Anakin Skywalker could cure cancer with his backsweat if it fit your horrid argument.
Explain how it is hyperbole? Because you can't accept facts? Nobody cares if you're convinced. Your purpose on this forum is apparently to argue against sources and *****, which you've done successfully. I'm not surprised you'd argue this though. After all, isn't this why you left KMC?

I forgot, your job isn't to offer arguments, it's to criticize others. Judging by this nonsense, you can't do anything but that. Here's the difference though. Exar Kun was firmly above Vodo...That wasn't the case with Anakin and Obiwan. And furthermore, why would I have to provide any argument that Vodo WASNT a powerhouse? Does that even make sense? The fact is, there's nothing in the comics to suggest he was better than average. Not his walking stick, not his "experience" in knocking Kun on his ass. If you're implying that is what makes him "above average", you're more of a fanboy than I thought.

And the constant bitching whining, arguing against sources and logic, makes you look like a tool. Shut up already...

Wtf are these extraordinary powers? Provide them or STFU because there's nothing to suggest he was "powerful". You're apparently missing the point (not unusual for someone who's ignorance exceeds his intelligence). The point is Anakin defeating Dooku, who could arguably be on Kun's level, is a lot more impressive than Kun defeating Vodo. And since you've proven your constant inability to read, I'll say this one more time. I never STATED that Kun was weaker than Anakin. Kun would WTFPWN Anakin in the force. The saber battle will be long and arduous but Anakin CAN win. Stop being a moron.

Oh right, I forgot the EOD stance. "These characters just have more sources so it means NOTHING". Great going jackass.

The first duel is in comic 1 of 6 of the DLOTS. The second fight is in the TSW. Now STFU.. You're not making any points..

Oh right, this is exactly why your definition of "logic" makes me laugh. Yoda apparently wiped the floor with Sidious and Dooku is apparently more powerful than Sidious. Gee Janus, NOW I know why you have to convince yourself of so many things..

Nobody called him a noob. BUT there's nothing to suggest he was any sort of a powerhouse either, so either prove he was what you claim he was, or shut up. I understand you can't ever accept defeat, but you're going to have to, because the evidence works against you..

In his fight with Dooku, he was getting stronger while Dooku was getting weaker. In his fight with obiwan, although he lost, he was not losing any of his strength or stamina. The closest we can compare Kun to would be his fight with Ulic, who seems the only one truly capable of wielding a saber during Kun's time.

I didn't see Dooku force choking or using the force on Anakin in either fight. What's your point? What do you mean Kun swats Jedi around? Oh you mean that one time with Sylvar? I didn't see him swat anyone around when he went up to Ulic, to Vodo, to Ood. I believe he took out his saber and started fighting. Try again Janus.

That's if you believe he was a force spirit like Vodo, or like Nadd, Yoda, Obiwan, and not something more when he USED SADOWS TEACHINGS to shed his body. But by your logic, because he did all this to Luke's students as a ghost but didn't force pwn anyone in TOTJ, TOTJ jedi and sith>>>>>NJO...

Darth Sexy

Are you really that daft? Kun has PROVEN from TIME TO TIME that he prefers to start off with the saber. I don't know whether you're ignorant or just plain moronic, so I suggest you open up the comics.

I know you don't know how to read so I don't expect you to understand simple concepts. Notice how I'm not involved in MOST vs threads Janus. Do you know why? Come on big boy you can get it? Because I only argue what I know about characters X, Y, Z. Come on, even YOU can understand this when you put your mind to it.

Good one. Shouldn't you be having your e-victory party after spewing 1 page full of nonsense? Denial is a *****

You simply stating "no you haven't" doesn't make it so. In virtually every confrontation Kun has come with a saber. But suddenly because Janus is a fanboy, Kun is going to come with force maneuvers and amulet blasts out of his ass. Unproven, unfounded, or just plain stupid?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Btw, DS I brought your cup:

http://i11.tinypic.com/4q3ump4.jpg

The fact that you would post a full page worth of useless crap and don't give me time to respond before you post this, makes you look like a massive tool. But that's ok Janus because you're not exactly great at comebacks, or even insults, so I don't hold it against you.. So lets see what we've established.

A. You're an angry, ignorant douchebag who can't see past his own text, who argues against sources/logic while ignoring others, and who likes to post e-victory threads after getting butt hurt by little old me. I don't know if it's because you have too much time on your hands, I hurt your feewings, or it's just that time of the month for you.

B. I've established that Anakin CAN beat Kun in a saber duel. You've turned around and claimed that I thought Anakin was better in the force, or physically, etc.

C. Your reading comprehension skills are on a first grade level. I suggest you do some exercises during your high paying, lucrative job.

D. Denial doesn't make your argument better.

E. If you're going to ***** and moan, at least offer up a somewhat cogent argument instead of "omg no". So please Janus...

http://www.maniacworld.com/stop-crying.jpg

Darth Sexy

Oh, I almost forgot Janice. In keeping with the internet tradition of every delusional forum nerd everywhere (that would be you judging by your victory party):
http://www.yaaat.com/images/owned.png

Now please do us a favor and roll down the hill into oncoming traffic.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well Janus, let me first start off by saying that I expected you to ***** and moan to yourself for quite a while, but after reading this and the fact that you had to post your 'internet pwnage' of tdtd, this is going to be hilarious.. Now... Exar Kun is head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities... But um... Dooku was head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities.. Sidious was head and shoulders above Mace in force abilities. There goes your case.

Oh my. One must love this argument. Really. Dooku was head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities. Correct. Hence he could have killed Anakin had he ever intended to do so which, as we know, wasn't the case. It would have been laughable easy for him to kill Anakin after the scene depicted in Janus' .gif-file, instead of bringing down that metal structure on the already knocked out Kenobi.

And Sidious and Mace ? You might have realized already that Mace was head and shoulders above Sidious when it came to lightsaber combat and had unique abilities (Shatterpoint, Vaapad mindset) that gave him additional advantages over the Sith Lord. I don't see how any of that applies on Anakin when comparing him to Exar Kun in the lightsaber department.

Dooku was defeated by an immensly unconventional attack of Anakin who utilized his physical superiority over the Sith Lord. Kun is far stronger than Dooku and also appears to be physically tougher in comparison to Anakin.

Which is total bullshit.
We all know that force abilities do play a nice role in lightsaber combat. You acknowledge that Kun is far superior to Anakin in that department. So let's see. Anakin would be confronted with a guy that is pretty impressive when it comes to raw physical power. Yet that guy, due to superior force mastery, is also capable of boosting his strength, his reflexes, his agility, his dexterity and his precognition more than Anakin could do and aside of that seems to be pretty skilled when it comes down to sheer swordsplay. How the hell is Anakin going to win a lightsaber duel against him ? He simply has no advantage in comparison to Exar Kun.

Where did the comics state that Vodo was an "average Jedi" ? Did you ever read "The Freedom Nadd Uprising" ? No ? Because obviously your "average" Jedi Vodo is responsible for training students in lightsaber combat as he does so on Ossus. He's even training the apprentices of other Masters (such as Thon) in that department. Can you please tell me why other masters would ship their scholars to Ossus so that they can receive their lightsaber training from an "average Jedi" ?

Obviously Vodo was pretty skilled in the combat department. Even more skilled than any other Jedi Master in that time because otherwise it wouldn't make sense for them to make their apprentices learn the art of the lightsaber from Vodo instead of training them theirselves.

And if you'd take a look into the DLotS comics you would also see that they wanted to wait for Vodo before starting their conclave on Deneba because they obviously wanted to have Vodo's oppinion on the Krath threat.

Conclusion: Vodo seems to be the TOTJ eras main lightsaber instructor (or "Battlemaster" wink

meaning that he's definetely one of the best if not the best Jedi when it comes down to lightsaber combat in his own era. Which obviously says a lot about Kun's skill considering Vodo notes that Kun is "the best student he has ever trained" and the fact that Kun pretty much tooled him in their confrontation in the Senate.

He taught Anakin every lightsaber move. Oh yes. That's why they're using totally different lightsaber forms which encorporate opposite philosophies. And he knew him inside out ? Nice. I guess Kun would have extensive knowledge about Anakin's lightsaber skill because he seems to be using it himself in certain situations in the comics. On the other hand Anakin would be confronted with a weapon he's not familiar with, a style he's not familiar with and all of that being used by a guy who's more powerful in any department than he is. Once more: How is Anakin going to win that ?

Does it matter as you have nothing to proof either of that statements ?

Says who ? Lightsnake ? Didn't know that Lightsnake words are canon. He moved from level 8 to 9 ? I also didn't know that Nick Gillards words are canon.

Yeah. Let's do some reality check. He totally tools Odan with a single force attack. He smites Freedon Nadd's spirit with an amulet blasts and he happily destroys Aleema Keto with a Sith magic attack. Then he goes on and tosses Sylvar around like a ragdoll with apparent ease. If you want to take his action in the JA trilogy into consideration he also prefers acting threw using force abilities even when having the means (control Kyp) to start some physical attacks.

And notice that this is not the story forum where we invent some nice little stories about characters fighting. This is a versus forum where a character would use the best he could do to kill his opponent. If you consider Kun's lightsaber skills not the best he could (which is what you do and well...they still would be enough to deal with Anakin) you have to suggest that he will try to own Anakin with his force abilities.

So I wonder why you try to debate here, being very well aware of the fact that you don't have any point whatever you want to argue ?

Lightsnake

I think I'll remain safely outta this one, now...

Btw, Nai....since when did you get into House?

Faunus

Dude... it's House. You can't "get into it." It just is.

Janus Marius

Amen. House is a state of mind.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my. One must love this argument. Really. Dooku was head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities. Correct. Hence he could have killed Anakin had he ever intended to do so which, as we know, wasn't the case. It would have been laughable easy for him to kill Anakin after the scene depicted in Janus' .gif-file, instead of bringing down that metal structure on the already knocked out Kenobi.
Wait, so you're NOW saying that Dooku wasn't trying? Is that why he was fighting for his life? Or is the ROTS Novelization somehow contradictory to the movies on this part? I KNOW you read it.

Excuse me? Mace was head and shoulders above Sidious? How about the fact that after 13 years without practicing combat, Sidious and Mace were COMPLETE EQUALS in saber combat. The only thing that TIPPED that fight was Mace's shatterpoint abilities.

Why? Because Kun picked up a senator with 1 hand? I assume you're talking about force augmented strength. Kun maybe far stronger than Dooku but where is the proof that he's far stronger than Anakin? Anakin and Luke both had incredible strength when they were swinging their lightsaber wildly. Hell Luke took robotic Vader out of commission with his furious blows. I'll get a book or one of the comics which shows Anakin's strength because I'm not positive exactly what it is.

So by your logic, Ulic Qel Droma>>>>>>>Anakin. Since these force abilities play a nice role and Ulic stalemated Kun, he MUST somehow be more superior to Dooku and Anakin. Kun's force mastery is the only thing that's superior here. I don't know where you get the idea that his precognition and dexterity are superior to ANakin. After all, Anakin was able to parry all of Dooku's blows and wtfpwn him, while Dooku was superior to Anakin in the force.

Where is the proof that VOdo is a powerhouse? You're asking everyone to go on a limb and somehow logically deduce that Vodo was a powerhouse because he trained students and because he could turn his stick into a combat tool. Except there's no PROOF that Vodo did anything that makes him a powerhouse. Hell his own padawan kicked his ass, and I'm sure Ulic would have done the same, since he was on par with Kun at the time. Can you definitively tell us that the quality of lightsaber combat of this era was high?

Sorry Nai but I don't see any other Jedi master even remotely adept at lightsaber combat. The Jedi Masters of that time spent more time sitting there and meditating on the force than doing any actual fighting. This doesn't include Revan's time.

Jesus christ Nai, for some of you who preach logic, you really ask people to go out on a limb here. WHAT in ANYTHING that you've said, makes Vodo powerful? After reading this, you've convinced me that he's KNOWLEDGABLE. So what?

Except you can't seem to quantify the level of saber combat of this era. We all saw how incredible the Jedi of the GAOTS were.

Yea, they were using totally different lightsaber forms. I guess it didn't occur to you that Obiwan could POSSIBLY know more than one form. I WILL give you the fact that Anakin isn't experienced enough to NOT let an unknown style bother him.

Yet this would imply that he became more powerful than Dooku once he touched the dark side. Who was level 9? Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious.

Wonderful, he tooled a thousand year old Jedi who MIGHT have used ONE technique on average ancient sith. He puts his hand through Freedon Nadd's Spirit. Wow Nai. He defeated Aleema, who was what, average? If I were you and I was arguing KUn's superiority, I wouldn't throw any of that bullshit you just put, except for what he did in JA. And you don't have to prove that Kun is the superior force user Nai, this is obvious.

As opposed to "Omg Kun tooled Vodo, who COULD have been the best of his era, but there was nobody outside of Kun and Ulic who showed ANYTHING resembling power so we're back at square 1"? Anakin tooling Dooku in their saber fight speaks more about his abilities than Kun tooling a master with a stick.

kiddo44

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm confused. Kun's best saber feat is tooling Vodo (who isn't exactly a powerhouse), and stalemating Ulic, while Anakin destroys that super commando guy, Ventress, and tools Dooku, who is easily one of the greatest force users/saber combatants in the history of Star Wars. Not to mention this is "in teh z0ne" ANakin, and Kun loses stamina, I don't see how on earth Kun would win this.

On the other hand, if it's a force fight, Anakin=pwned

right

Originally posted by Janus Marius

You're missing something entirely; the winner is not always the better fighter. Obi-Wan as of TPM was far inferior to Maul. Obi-Wan was technically inferior to Anakin in RotS. Yoda was far from inferior to Sidious yet he lost. Anakin's never shown to be the "only living master" of a lightsaber form made specifically for lightsaber dueling. Anakin's never shown Force prowess above or even on par with Dooku. And if you watch the saber match, it's pretty much even until Anakin leans in and does his wondermove. Nothing else he did during that match made him a superior duellist. He simply did a smart move and won. Lucky him. If Dooku had choked his ass or fried him and hadn't been so busy incapacitating Obi-Wan, he'd be dead.

When Anakin used the darkside it was pretty clear to everybody who was the better duelist. Count Dooku maybe could have beat him when he was fighting w/ Kenobi b/c when he does that, they fight together and Anakin has to hold back, but when he uses everything he had, and the darkside he is better than Dooku clearly, and Nic Gillard has said as much. Count Dooku thinks to himself after Anakin used the darkside how strong he is, and it took everything he had to just block his swings, he certainly could not got off some force move on him then. But you think Luminara,Maul,Depa,Anoon are all better than him no expression

SO its no suprise you think this.

Darth Sexy

Janus isn't incorrect here, however he is referring to the exception rather than the rule. If we are to use the "any given Sunday" rule, then Jar Jar could wtfpwn Marka Ragnos through unfortunate circumstances.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wait, so you're NOW saying that Dooku wasn't trying? Is that why he was fighting for his life? Or is the ROTS Novelization somehow contradictory to the movies on this part? I KNOW you read it.

Oh. You know that I read it ? Nice.
"Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could."

Urm. Sounds pretty much as if Dooku gets his ass kicked there. Definetly. What novel did you read ? Dooku in the novel received the command from Sidious to let Anakin live and even after Anakin did cut his hands off, he still thinks that everything is happening according to Sidious' plan. I wonder where he should have tried to killed Anakin there. And once more: After knocking out Kenobi he had plenty of time to kill Anakin but instead decided to drop that metal construction on the unconcious Jedi Master.

What movie did you actually see ? Revenge of the Sith ? No. Can't be the case because Mace constantly forces Sidious backwards until disarming him in the movie version. Sidious is very clearly not Mace's equal in lightsaber combat even if only for the case that Mace has his Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability. This, by the way, proofs that Janus was completely right with his assertion that you can't seperate lightsaber combat from the force abilities.

Boring.
I'm talking about the fact that Kun appears to be a muscle-packed killing machine if you go by the comics and you've already acknowledge that his force mastery, therefore his ability to boost his strength, is superior to that of Anakin. And please. Kun forced Sylvar on her knees by pushing her head down with one hand (and Sylvar wasn't exactly weak either) and lifted the Chancellor up with considerable ease, pressing his finger through the skull bones of the alien and lifting it up while the weight was - logically - just hold with his fingers - then he moves his arm up with the Chancellor hanging on it like a puppet and finally drops him on the ground.

And there comes the allmighty strawman again.

First: Did I state here that Ulic >>>>>>>>>>>> Anakin ? Nope. So drop it.

Second: Kun in his final shape is by far more powerful than during the time of his first duel with Ulic. And notice how he already was the best swordsmen the Order's battlemaster has trained up to that point before that clash with Ulic.

Third: Wow. Kun's only advantage is his force mastery ? You should probably have a look at the comics, specifically at the scenes where Kun fight. You might want to look at his movements. The guy is clearly using multiple forms including form V while he has a unique form and a unique weapon. So his "advantages" in comparison to Anakin would be:

- he knows Anakin's style
- he uses a unique form Anakin doesn't know
- he uses a unique weapon Anakin doesn't know
- he has superior force mastery in comparison to Anakin
- he seems to possess the greaty physical strength

And now...what would be Anakin's advantage over Kun which logically must be existant in your mind because otherwise you can't suggest that Anakin would be able to defeat him ?

You might want to read again what I've written and notice that nothing you've typed down has any relation to it. And lmao. You did notice that they had a major conflict within the Jedi Order (the Third Shism) going on just a few centuries before that time which at least the Jedi Masters still alive at the beginning of TOTJ did survive ? Aside of the fact that the forms didn't change overtime so to question the "quality" of lightsaber combat is pretty much laughable.

Sure. Jedi Masters with several centuries of experience that did also witness one of the shisms in the Jedi Order would be total suckers in combat. Notice how I was talking about combat skill in general. Thon obviously was skilled enough to take out a Sith witch that was capable to wipe an entire planet of life with a single force move and if you have a look at the story of Nomi Sunrider he doesn't seems to be incompetent either. And notice that Vodo himself doesn't have to be a powerhouse. You are pretty much saying that - considering Vodo must have trained basically anybody in lightsaber combat, since the masters shipped their students to him - the entire Jedi Order of that time must suck because they all are inferior to Kun.

Yes. Knowledgeable in the lightsaber combat department apparently more then any other master in his time, among them people who battled ancient Sith (Odan, Thon), freaked out droids (Arca) and Dark Jedi (all people in the TOTJ comics older than 200 years) which is the entire f*cking point here, you idiot.

Rofl. Do you actually realize what bullshit you're producing here ? If you want to start like that I could just say that the PT era Jedi are actually gunned down when they're facing more than two opponents and question the entire level of saber combat in that era. Would that make sense to you ? No ? And the GAOTS Jedi ? You mean those who take on a freaking Sith army with four people who all survive the confrontation with one of them fighting with a freaking stick ? Holy shit. They must really suck, dude !

I guess it didn't occur to you that Obi-Wan canonically knew at least two forms as he was practicing form IV like his master before switching to Soresu after TPM. But he didn't practice form V meaning he can't have taught it to Anakin.

And who was level 8 ? Obi-Wan Kenobi. Who walked away on Mustafar with all limbs and all his skin ? Oh...yeah. If you want to use Gillards dumbass level system you should also use Gillards other words on the matter. He said that the only advantage Anakin had over Obi-Wan was that the Dark Side made him more aggressive in combat. Wow.

Borbarad

Nice how you completely didn't get the point. You wanted to establish the idea that Kun's preferred modus operandi is to use his lightsaber against force users as a fact. In fact he more often slaps people around with his force powers than engaging them in lightsaber combat.

Lightsaber: Vodo, Ulic, Odd
Force: Sylvar, Aleema, Odan, Nadd

Yo. You must have completely missed Nomi Sunrider in the comics somehow. She picks up a lightsaber for the first time and handles it better than her husband who was a trained Jedi. She cuts her way to a gang of thugs and later through an entire army of Ommin's servants pretty easily despite - at the later incidence - hindered by dark side battle meditation. Yet, according to Vodo, Kun is still definetly better with a lightsaber then her, even at a point in time when he was far away from his actual peak in that department.

And how does Anakin's defeat of Dooku speak more about his abilities then Kun's displays of lightsaber skill ? Once more. Anakin didn't tool Dooku. He didn't even outduel him in the classical meaning of the word. He did just brutally overpower the Sith Lord through superior strength. Kun did toy with a 600 year old Jedi Master who was listed as experienced combatant by the narrator and whom we see training basically all kind of people in the art of lightsaber combat - even the students of other masters and whos death was descriped at a strike at the heart of the Jedi Order.

The constant level of Anakin's saber abilities (his bladework and so on), even if you want to follow Gillard's words, is just slightly above that of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Do you want to tell me that somebody who was noted as the most powerful duellist of his era, somebody undefeated in direct confrontation, somebody who invented his own weapon design and his own lightsaber style is below that level ? Because this is exactly what you're saying here.

And to trump that: You even assume that Anakin could beat Kun while acknowledging that Kun is by far superior when it comes to force mastery.

Would Kun saberrape Anakin ? I don't think it would be that easy. Would he comfortably defeat Skywalker ? I don't know. Would he at least defeat him in most cases even if you turn the entire fight into a pure saber duel ? Definetely yes. So what do you want to argue: That Anakin might pull some stunning movement out of his ass to win one out of 10 lightsaber duels with Kun (something that would most likely not happen anyway). That would be really funny, especially since you accused Janus to use the exception rather than the rule - which is exactly what you do here.

Gideon

Reference link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGVBGFbB6eI

I personally don't know whether Darth Sexy watched the movie, but I did, Nai. In fact, I just went back and watched the duel again on Youtube before I decided to comment. But he is right.

'Constantly forces him back'? If you will please click on the reference link that documents the fight scene, you'll note that between 0:40 and 0:42, Darth Sidious manages to defeat and kill Masters Tinn and Kolar. Between 0:42 and 0:47, Darth Sidious duels Mace Windu and Kit Fisto simultaneously, but, despite the Vaapad master's assistance, the Sith Lord overpowers and destroys his companion.

From 0:48 to 1:03 -- the infamous scene where Sidious has Windu at saberpoint -- it is actually the Sith Lord, not Mace, who directs the course of the duel. Windu, in fact, runs away from Palpatine at 0:49.

I urge you to go back and read Darth Sexy's message again. He is not -- nor am I -- disputing that Windu is not superior to Palpatine when you get right down to it in lightsaber combat, nor is he implying that the duel was anything but legitimate. The both of us have been combating that theory for a long time, and we both conclude Windu won because he was better. The point Darth Sexy was trying to make is that Windu is not "head-and-shoulders" above Palpatine; since he was forced back by the Sith Lord and they fought to a standstill until Windu emerged himself in Vaapad, thus negating Palpatine's superior speed and overwhelming skill (hence why he was able to kill Windu's colleagues despite Mace's own intervention) and the shatterpoint charism is what allowed him to defeat the Sith Lord.

A legitimate duel, but would Mace own him in a pure lightsaber match? Doubtful. If you think otherwise, I look forward to your response.

He can do that quite fine, actually. The only thing this proves is that Darth Sexy is trying to be objective; he is making a point that helps the image of a character he strongly dislikes while not disputing the fact that he lost and the reasons why he lost. Certain parties could learn from that.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Reference link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGVBGFbB6eI

I personally don't know whether Darth Sexy watched the movie, but I did, Nai. In fact, I just went back and watched the duel again on Youtube before I decided to comment. But he is right.

He's right with what ?

And what happens after that ?

Notice that your reference video is cut in between.
- Mace breaks the saberlock with Sidious
- he then (beginning of the second cut in the video @ 1:10) waits for Sidious to get his saber back up in front of him before striking again
- this is followed by a series of strikes where we see Windu forcing Sidious back through the office even using fancy Ataru-style movements to avoid Windu
- at 1:28 when Sidious goes down on his knees, Mace could have easily killed him by moving his blade backwards. Yet he somehow decided again not to do this.
- then Mace finally disarms Sidious.

Who is the superior fighter here ? Holy shit. I know that Mace was first avoiding Sidious but maybe because Sidious did just cut down three of Mace's friend and not because Sidious was actually outfighting him in the melee department. To state that, going by the movie, would be a joke at best. Sorry.

It's nice what you can see in that movie, Escape. Where did Mace intervene, eh ? Two Jedi are dead on the ground before Mace even moves into the duel and Kit Fisto is cut down by the Sith Lord so far away from Mace that Mace couldn't have done anything there. So WTF ? What should Mace have done there to prevent Sidious from doing that ? He couldn't do anything against that.
And sorry. Windu keeps kicking Sidious ass from the saberlock sequence on and basically let's the Sith Lord live twice when he could have ended the duel rather easily. In the novel interpretation Mace is starting to use his Shatterpoint ability (and the complete Vaapad mind set) after shattering the window. That would mean he was already about to defeat Sidious without using Vaapad to the full extend and without using the Shatterpoint abilty.

And if you concluded that Mace is the better fighter. WTF: I said Sidious is not Mace's equal in lightsaber combat which would be the very same conclusion. So thanks for wasting your time anyway.

Of course he would. Based on the movie interpretation Sidious is quite worse in melee combat in comparison to Mace if you follow the movement patterns. And there is nothing as a "pure lightsaber match" in the SW universe. Excluding force powers Mace would kick Sidious ass across the place because his physical strength and normal speed do by far exceed that of Sidious.

Nope, Escape. Lightsaber combat and force abilities can't be seperated because lightsaber combat depends on force abilities (such as force enchancement of certain natural abilities). Without that, lightsaber combat is hardly possible. So the very attempt to seperate them violates the very basic mechanics of the SW universe. Hence it's illogical to do so.

And he's not trying to be objective which should actually have occured to you unless you're blind nowadays.

Gideon

He's right that Mace Windu is not "head and shoulders" above Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat.

What happens after that? Mace begins to duel the Sith Lord on equal terms, and -- delving into Vaapad -- starts to overpower him. No one has disputed this, Nai.

I'm aware. There are multiple videos; I just chose the first one I saw.

I'm aware, Nai. No one disputes that Mace is stronger than Sidious; hell, isn't it your entire claim that Anakin overcame Dooku with a cheap physical attack? I don't work with double standards, Nai, so don't color me impressed.

I do hope that you're not insinuating Mace Windu allowed Darth Sidious to reevaluate his stance, thereby risking his own life and potentially allowing this mass-murderer and puppetmaster to add another kill to the list.

'Using fancy Ataru-style movements' to avoid being attacked doesn't seem any worse than running away from your opponent.

...No one is disputing that Mace Windu legitimately overpowered Darth Sidious and that, during the course of the duel, bested him through superior skill with a lightsaber. I made that perfectly clear, several times, in the above post and several times during this one. I hope I won't have to do it again.

You shatter my hopes. Mace Windu, Nai. Windu is the superior fighter. Must I reiterate myself at every juncture?

A joke? I lol'd. No, Nai, this is not a joke. You telling me that Mace Windu -- despite being the "superior swordsman and combatant" -- ran away from Darth Sidious because he just cut down three of his friends is a joke. Unfortunately, going by the movie, Darth Sidious initiates the fight in such a way that Mace Windu nor his companions can match his overwhelming speed and ferocity. The Sith Lord cut down Tinn and Kolar in two seconds, Nai, and killed Fisto while dueling with Windu simultaneously.

To state otherwise is futile.

I like to think so, yes.

The part where he attacked Darth Sidious in tandem with Kit Fisto, Nai.

I'm sorry, but no, this isn't the case. Above, you implied that Mace let Sidious reevaluate his stance and continue the duel. I personally think that that is a falsehood -- and would be incredibly, incredibly stupid on Windu's part -- and is merely a subsequent of bad choreography. Likewise, logic concludes that those four highly trained swordsman should have been able to attack a Sith Lord who they outnumbered, and who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade. Yet two of them are already dead before Mace and Kit can summon the thought to fight back. Again, I blame that on piss poor choreography.

The other falsehood here is that you implied Mace 'couldn't have done anything'. Again, he attacked Sidious in tandem with Fisto, and was unable to save his colleague from being killed -- much less overpower Sidious. Why is that? Because, for the final time, at the beginning, Sidious held the advantage. He was faster and more ferocious. That is why and how he was able to drive Windu back into the main office.

If he were allegedly "head and shoulders" above Sidious, then one concludes that he could have easily defeated the Dark Lord, especially when he had help in the form of Kit Fisto. And yet he was unable to, and driven back for his efforts.

No need to apologize, Nai, it's I who must deliver the bad news. Mace Windu isn't a fool. To assume that he allowed Sidious to continue to fight -- when the objective was to disarm him and bring him into custody -- especially after he murdered three of Windu's colleagues and forced Windu himself back during the initial portion of the fight -- would require proof, not your "analysis" of the choreography. And to even consider that concludes that Mace Windu can now be used to gauge the bottomless depths of unquestionable ineptitude. Pardon me for thinking that Mace Windu has vast more intelligence than to allow a powerful enemy to continue walking for... wait, you didn't even bother providing the pretense of a reason why Windu would allow Sidious to continue to fight.

That's certainly possible. Once again, no one is disputing that Mace Windu ended the duel with superior skill. We agree on it. The argument Darth Sexy was making was that Windu's not head and shoulders above him. You've yet to prove that.

Lol, Nai, I officially have no real patience for the condescending nature of your post if this is what you've concluded. You made the assertion that Mace is "head and shoulders" above Sidious, which is what DS was disagreeing with. No one has disputed Mace's superiority, but it's not full pwnage. You've yet to prove that it is.

A waste of time in that you still have yet to understand the point I'm trying to make. Take your time, Nai. A highly intelligent debater such as yourself ought to have no trouble understanding the simplicity of the point being made here.

Then you and I define "ownage" differently. I define "ownage" as complete domination with no chance for the opposition. That seems to change though, for you, depending on who is facing whom. Mace wouldn't and didn't "own" Sidious. Or, if you like, he did, but -- wait -- Dooku initially held the advantage against Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, yet lost it and was defeated by a physical attack... hmm... similar circumstances.

I guess Dooku got owned too. Single-standards must suck.

Based on movie interpretation? Lol, enlighten me, Nai.

Nai... was this really necessary? A "pure lightsaber fight" within the context of a versus forum, I would define as a duel without active, offensive, or even defensive uses of the Force. Using it to enhance dexterity and mobility? Yeah, sure, why not?

Hell. Excluding Force powers, Mace would be the king of the PT. Yoda and Dooku would be owned by... well... any middle-aged or young person in decent shape, as would Sidious.

Gideon

...I'm not arguing that, Nai. Go back, take your time, and re-read my post again. Oh, and I don't know if this helps you with DS, but in the versus forum, when we say "lightsaber duel", we don't mean strip the Force from the opponents entirely. When Dooku told Yoda that their fight couldn't be decided by "knowledge of the Force but skills with a lightsaber", he didn't stop using the Force entirely. He just fought -- primarily -- with the blade itself, using the Force to only enhance his strength and mobility to compensate for his old age, as did Yoda. That is what a typical versus fight with "lightsabers" constitutes.

People here have accused me of being blind all the time. It's nothing new. No one, again, said he was being objective about the whole damn thing. Just the part I was debating.

-Blasmaster-

Originally posted by Gideon
If he were allegedly "head and shoulders" above Sidious, then one concludes that he could have easily defeated the Dark Lord, especially when he had help in the form of Kit Fisto. And yet he was unable to, and driven back for his efforts.

You do know that some people can actually be more effective when fighting alone rather than with a teammate, dont you? Especially if the weapons there fighting with are freaking Lightsabers that, with just a little bit of contact, can seriously injure or kill someone. Enemy or not. This would explain why Windu couldnt do much with Kit Fisto against Sidious, but clearly performed better when he was alone. This kinds of things arent linear, y'know.

In conjunction to that, I think there's one very important thing that you guys completely missed out. And that is the fact that all of them where fighting in a limited space at that time(i.e at the entrance of the room). In reality Sidious had the advantage 300 style. Mace and Fisto(and the other two Masters) had limited movement when they fought, while Sidious mightve as well just practically swing his Lightsaber wildly in any direction and someone's bound to have been sliced in two.

Gideon

The suggestion or implication that Mace Windu is one of those people is, firstly, a very unstable and unsupported gambit and secondly, it would require some evidence.

The fact remains that a G-canon source (the novelization) supports the theory that Mace Windu was simply unable to defeat the Emperor at that point because he could not match the skill and ferocity demonstrated by the Sith Lord; Windu is, under normal circumstances, an extremely aggressive fighter who utilizes the most aggressive and unpredictable of all combat forms -- and yet he is forced back by his opponent, despite at first holding the numerical advantage.

...That point might have some merit if the two combatants in question weren't highly trained and highly skilled swordsman -- ranking among the best in the Order's history -- who have been colleagues for quite some time. This fight wasn't waged between children, Blasmaster.

Incorrect; the explanation has no merit to it nor does it have support. Meanwhile, the alternative route -- supported by a G-canon source -- suggests that Windu was unable to defeat Sidious at first because he simply couldn't match the Sith Lord's speed and ability.

They weren't fighting in a broom closet, Blasmaster. The office -- while smaller than the main one and certainly smaller than the Senate arena -- was large enough for the four Jedi to have willingly entered, knowing full well the premise that the Chancellor might very well be an armed Sith Lord. If they felt that space would have been an issue, they might have retreated back into the hallway. Again, this also notes the simple fact that the four Jedi Masters present were among the most proficient swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000-year-history -- while mistakes are and can be made by highly skilled warriors -- can you name several examples of a Jedi Master accidentally slicing his colleague in half in the midst of a duel? I can't recall any off the top of my head.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
He's right that Mace Windu is not "head and shoulders" above Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat.

Did you ever have a look at the topic of this thread here, Gideon ? Does it say "Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious - Part 2932 ?" No ? Then why you are turning this thread into that discussion once more ?

So they weren't on equal terms before that ? Nice.

ROFL, Escape. What a nice irrelevant missdirection.

That's exactly what he did and the reason for this is that he thought he had to capture Sidious alive instead of killing him on the spot. He just stands there for more than a second and waits until Sidious has moved his blade back up again. So unless you want to tell me that Mace needs some seconds to place a single strike on Sidious I guess he did really allow the Sith to defend himself again.

Once more: ROFL, Escape. You sound as if Mace shit his pants and ran away from Sidious in fear. Really. He just moved into a room in which he had more space and no ground literred with bodies of dead Jedi. And wow...he immediately takes the initiative once they are there.

Funny interpretation, Escape.
He cuts the first two Jedi down which don't even move to defend theirselves. You might attribute that to Sidious speed or to the fact that those two pretty much sucked. I don't care. The point is that they weren't defending themselves so that doesn't make Sidious an uber duellist exactly.
Kit Fisto is cut down by Sidious while defending himself, yes. But I wonder what Windu has to do with that. Mace isn't even in melee range with Sidious. So to state that Sidious cut down Kit Fisto "while duelling Mace" is simply wrong.

You're talking about the same Mace Windu who casually switches his weaponhand while duelling the Sith Lord ? The same Mace Windu who didn't want to kill Sidious in the first place because he came to capture him and even stays with that idea after Sidious has killed the three Jedi ? Hmm.

Excuse me Escape. You blame that on poor choreography and at the same time use it as argument for Sidious superiority in combat ? Am I the only one that thinks this doesn't make much sense ?

Hello, Escape. He's exchanging two blows with Sidious and then Sidious cuts Fisto down why Mace is not even in melee range. So what should he have done against that. And he drives Mace back to the office ? This is coming from the guy who told me that Windu was running away implying that it was Windu's choice to move through the corridor into the office ? WTF ?

No. I don't need to proof anything because this duel isn't the topic of that thread here no does it have any impact on this thread here. I'd like to see your justification for turning this into another Mace VS Sidious debate.

Wow.
I officially have no real patience for the annoying nature of yours to pop up in every damn debate in which the duel between Mace and Sidious is cited, to turn it into the next "Mace VS Sidious" thread.

But ok. Just for you: I was talking about sheer bladework and lightsaber skill a department in which Mace does by far exceed Sidious. Which is only logical. You mentioned it yourself: Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for a decade while Mace Windu was quite busy fighting a war over the three years prior to that duel. How should Sidious bladework be on par with that of Mace Windu or even close to the only master of the deadliest lightsaber form there is ?
The point is, and you've stated it yourself, that Sidious initial advantage comes from his superior speed and feriousity. That means from the fact that Sidious possesses greater force mastery in comparison to Mace Windu. The novel goes so far that Mace does force Sidious to decrease his speed (through Vaapad / Shatterpoint usage) and only after this disarms the Sith Lord.

So Sidious had a considerable speed advantage on Mace for most of the duel (according to the novel) which does mean that Mace...must obviously be far more skilled in the combat department to last against Sidious and even fight him back.

A highly intelligent debater such as yourself ought to have no trouble understanding the simplicity of the fact that the point your trying to make he has no use in this debate.

Escape. I'm getting really bored by people who don't seem to have martial arts or saberfighting knowledge and come up with shitty comparisons based on that fact. Did Mace overpower Sidious with superior strength only by grapping him, thereby immobilizing him and then cut his hands off like Anakin did to Dooku, this all aided by the fact that he had a artifical hand ? No ?
Did Mace use some refined martial arts movement to disarm Sidious, such as kicking the freaking blade out of the Sith Lord's hand. Oh yes. That seems to be the case.
Does Anakin show any superiority over Dooku in the lightsaber combat or force mastery department ? I can actually remember that Anakin was down on the ground after trying to attack Dooku from behind while Dooku knocked out his former master fighting them 2 on 1. Holy shit. Did something similar happen to Windu ? No.

Can it be that you're just comparing apples to oranges here ? Holy crap. Yes. Does that make any sense ? No. Does it have any influence on the actual debate which says "Exar Kun VS Anakin" ? No.

Oh. You would define it like that. Good god. So...does Vaapad, as a mindset, belong to the "offensive force power" department or is it merely part of the style ? Does Mace Windu's shatterpoint ability belong to the "offensive force power" department or is it merely an alternate force-aided way of perception (such as precognition) ? Is boosting your physical abilities counted as "offensive" or "defensive" force power depending on what you use this ability for ?

Borbarad

I don't know if it helps you Escape. But stating that person X is "head and shoulders" above person Y when it comes to force powers and then come up with "But in a lightsaber fight person Y would win" is completely mindless especially when you have nothing to argue that person Y has the greater lightsaber skill. Which was the entire point here actually.

And on a sidenote, Escape. The novelizations are NOT G-CANON but C-CANON. Time that some people get that into their heads.

Gideon

Outstanding, Nai. Company's coming over, but, if you'll give me 30 minutes or so, I'll be right with you.

smile

Janus Marius

Originally posted by Gideon
The suggestion or implication that Mace Windu is one of those people is, firstly, a very unstable and unsupported gambit and secondly, it would require some evidence.

In all fairness, Mace Windu's fighting style requires lots of room for full utilization as noted by the creators of the lightsaber forms and by Matthew Stover in Shatterpoint. And it's also intrinsically sensible that more room= more advantage with a lightsaber, especially since it's three against one. He brings up a good point which I had brought up initially over a year ago, and that's that the more people you add to the melee, the harder it becomes for them to mesh.

This might be acceptible if the "G-canon source" wasn't contradicting the movie, which is according to Leland Chee, the only bonafide in SW universe canon-wise. So while a novelization is considered "truer" to the real story of Star Wars according to Chee than an EU novel or comic book, it's subject to interpretation on behalf of the author (irregardless of how much GL supervises, because it's impossible to differentiate between what is GL's and what is Stover's) and in cases like this it's just plain wrong compared to the movie.

For sure, you wouldn't base a Harry Potter argument or LotR using movie sources when the novels are canon; why would you use a novel source for a series where only movies are the true canon? You wouldn't, plain and simple. The idea that Mace Windu was not able to match Sidious' skill and ferocity becomes moot, especially since Stover later makes an issue of how alone Mace and Sidious were apparently on equal standing until Mace got the upper hand.

Quite frankly I've seen this claim that the Jedi accompanying Windu were godly and the best the Order had to offer at the time (And now you say in history, which is even more questionable). It doesn't seem to hold any water, especially when two of the Jedi were slain by a straightforward attack by someone they lit their sabers to attack over a minute or two previous! If this is the best the Jedi had to offer, Order 66 could have been accomplished by the Red R4 unit from ANH. The only one who lasted more than five seconds was Kit Fisto, who himself uses an open and kinetic style. You can tell from the footage that the cramped space and the closeness of the Jedi and Sidious made his defense weak and he died for it.

See above. This explanation is flimsy and defies apparent movie depictions. Anyone can see that a bunch of men swinging around lightsabers in that room was insane. You couldn't swing a dead cat in there.

What the Jedi expected to find, or how they expected to conclude the arrest is speculation, but I submit that they did not space themselves out for attack as would be expected when seasoned warriors are about to attack a bigger target. Anyone who's seen a real fight knows that larger numbers spread out so that they can attack from all angles. It's a pincer. The Jedi merely ignite their sabers and stand there saying he's under arrest. Even when he produces a lightsaber they don't respond (Which is pretty stupid) and they don't take him seriously enough as a Sith Lord to even make a move or mount a real defense when he growls like a mating rancor and flies a la Raiden across the room.

So really, if the Jedi had come into that room expecting to throw down saber-style, there wouldn't have been such blatant idiocy on their behalf and lack of reaction. It just baffles the mind. Yes, Stover tries to sugarcoat the stupidity with his own explanation, but therein lies the problem- it's his explanation. Chee says first you must turn to the movies, and in the movies we can clearly see those you claim as the Order's best in their shining history act like total noobs when a Sith Lord threatens them and then attacks with a spinning Psycho Crusher followed by an elaborate, telegraphed thrust!

1. Really, please... please... please tell me again where this quote is from? And why should we respect it? If these guys are so damn uber, how come Dooku doesn't mention them as rivals to Grievous? Why doesn't Anakin or Obi-Wan study under them? Why is Cin Drallig teaching saber skills and not Sesse? The quote is out of place and doesn't make any sense whatsoever, especially when the "Order's best in their 25,000 history" get ganked by a Sith lord with as much subtlety in combat as an orange elephant?

-Blasmaster-

Originally posted by Gideon
The suggestion or implication that Mace Windu is one of those people is, firstly, a very unstable and unsupported gambit and secondly, it would require some evidence.

The fact that Mace, when fighting with Kit, couldnt do the things that he did when fighting Sidious alone, is a good enough indication that he may be more effective alone than with a teammate especially when fighting in a small space.

Otherwise Mace would've been dead the minute him and Sidious were face to face. I mean if Mace, with the help of another Jedi Master, couldnt defeat Sidious, then he wouldnt really stand a chance against Sidious if he's alone now, would he?

Originally posted by Gideon
The fact remains that a G-canon source (the novelization) supports the theory that Mace Windu was simply unable to defeat the Emperor at that point because he could not match the skill and ferocity demonstrated by the Sith Lord; Windu is, under normal circumstances, an extremely aggressive fighter who utilizes the most aggressive and unpredictable of all combat forms -- and yet he is forced back by his opponent, despite at first holding the numerical advantage.

I never denied the fact that Windu couldnt defeat Sidious when he was being helped by 3 other Jedi Masters. He clearly couldnt. BUT why he couldnt beat the Dark Lord even with help, but he could beat him alone is what Im trying to point out. Im arguing the why of that particular part of the fight. And as I see it, there were a number of circumstances at work in that fight, rather than Sidious being simply that good.

Originally posted by Gideon
...That point might have some merit if the two combatants in question weren't highly trained and highly skilled swordsman -- ranking among the best in the Order's history -- who have been colleagues for quite some time. This fight wasn't waged between children, Blasmaster.

And this point might have some merit if the 2 combatants in question are fighting an opponent whose strength isn't really special. The 2 Masters weren't fighting a Sith noob here, Gideon. Theyre fighting one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful Sith, in history. So, its more than reasonable to assume that they, at the very least, would have a bit of difficulty in fighting an extremely powerful Sith Lord, while at the same time trying to fight to the best of their abilities in a limited space and trying not to slice each other up because of the small space. Thats why you'll see in the video that Mace went around the back of Sidious to have more space, but by that time it was too late as Sidious had already sliced Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Gideon
Incorrect; the explanation has no merit to it nor does it have support. Meanwhile, the alternative route -- supported by a G-canon source -- suggests that Windu was unable to defeat Sidious at first because he simply couldn't match the Sith Lord's speed and ability.

Look above. As I said, I never contested the fact that Windu could not beat Sidious at that particular time of the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
They weren't fighting in a broom closet, Blasmaster. The office -- while smaller than the main one and certainly smaller than the Senate arena -- was large enough for the four Jedi to have willingly entered, knowing full well the premise that the Chancellor might very well be an armed Sith Lord. If they felt that space would have been an issue, they might have retreated back into the hallway.

It was still small enough for four Jedi to move around freely. Take notice they werent even fighting throughout the entire room. Sidious, through his speed, had them effectively pinned at the entrance of the room, which doesnt have much room for 4 Jedi(who were in very close proximity to each other) to move freely.

And retreating back into the hallway is a Big No No Gideon. You do realize that the hallway has an even smaller space, right? It would be like a bottleneck if they do that which would allow Sidious to dispose of them even more easily.

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, this also notes the simple fact that the four Jedi Masters present were among the most proficient swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000-year-history -- while mistakes are and can be made by highly skilled warriors -- can you name several examples of a Jedi Master accidentally slicing his colleague in half in the midst of a duel? I can't recall any off the top of my head.

No, I admit that I cannot name a Jedi Master or any Jedi for that matter who accidentally sliced off his companions while in a duel. But then again, I dont recall any event where 2 or more Jedi fought against an opponent(a very powerful opponent) in a very small space and still fought to the best of their abilities keeping in mind that they might slice each other up. If you can prove me wrong though, feel free to direct me to a source.

Lightsnake

However, unless it contradicts something from the movie absolutely and directly? There's nothing to argue.

The choreography sucked, everyone knows this. Don't use it to diminish people because of horrible CGI and stunt coordination.

To be exact, the quote comes from the ROTS novelization-several characters + narration and the Ultimate Visual guides.

We know. Lucas is terrible at writing

And thenm after the movie, the approved explanation is given that circumvents Lucas's own foolishness, which isn't directly contradicted by the movie.
By this logic, Mace Windu absolutely sucks and a third year kendo student could kick his ass

ROTS novelization and Visual Guide

Why is Cin Drallig teaching saber skills and not Mace? Personal preference? Saesee, Kit and Agen preferring the front lines and council positions?
And probably because they're not rivals to Grievous, who was capable of dealing with most council members

Again: the choreography sucks and it's time to look past that. Especially when said Sith Lord is also described as one of the best duelists in history himself and the inadequacy of Lucas's direction can be used to detract from a LOT of people in the movies.

Gideon

Janus, Nai, and Blasmaster I've got church in about 10 minutes. If you'll permit me enough time, I can come back and respond to you. Btw, the company last night was my cousin from Tennessee. They spent the night, hence why I didn't get back on.

Edit: Sorry, Blas, forgot about ya there.

Lightsnake

Yes, and Stover's work on the trio was apparently gotten from Lucas and personally reviewed by him.
Again, try to say those three suck thanks to crappy choreography and all of a sudden, you fall into logical quagmires.
Why, then, did they not get slaughtered on Geonosis or in the Clone Wars? Why would Mace think so highly of them? Why would he take them to arrest the DLOTS who was Dooku's Master?

Kind of 'exactly' there. Lucas said it up very poorly and, for some reason, unless you want to argue Mace Windu sucks completely, Mace doesn't react to save them in time, either. As you said, a 'clearly telegraphed stab.' something Mace, who is one of the finest saber duelists who ever lived, should be more than capable of dealing with.
Or is Mace still sore Agen took Eeth Koth's place on the council as 'token Zabrak?'

Even when GL approves it and essentially says the scene was thanks to him using the actual actors rather than CGI?
Hard pill to swallow.

Except he didn't SAY anything. Nobody's saying GL is bound by the EU her,e but unless the contradiction is direct-and that'd be somebody saying "Boy those Masters just plain sucked! Then the lower forms of canon still stand. In fact, you could make the argument around the entire thing that almost every single Jedi just plain sucks because that quote still stands.

Yes. Because that is a direct and incontrovertible contradiction.

Because the general is better than just about any Jedi ?

No. When GL clearly advertises one interpretation and more or less admits his screwup on another, and when the same exact scene depicts a man who is incontrovertibly one of the best duelists ever to live fighting with less skill than me? Something's wrong there. Especially when Stover's fight is mostly sheer narration-IE: he doesn't describe many of the moves done whatsoever. That Palpatine and Mace were equals without Shatterpoint contradicts precisely your own interpretation.
I am curious if these masters suck as badly as you make them out to be how they survived Geonosis and the Clone Wars, though.

Because, since the quote about them being among the best ever would still stand? Wouldn't that, rather than having three council members suck worse than 90 percent of the Jedi just bring 90 percent of the Jedi in history down lower? The point of the scene is meant to be 'Palpatine is good enough to kill three Jedi simultaneously, Mace Windu's in trouble'
Not 'The most hyped Sith Lord in the movie is absolutely devoid of any abilities and can only take out three weaklings, ha ha, Mace has no problem here.'
That Mace is unable to save the three, that the three live through Geonosis and Mace takes them rather than Cin Drallig, who by choreography alone, would kill all three of them at once....

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, unless it contradicts something from the movie absolutely and directly? There's nothing to argue.

This is a stupid take, Lightsnake. The novel doesn't need to absolutely contradict the movie - it just needs to be a little bit inaccurate in a certain situation. The fight sequences, compared to the movie, are completely lacking almost any link to the movie interpretation.

What choreography, Lightsnake ? Tiin and Kolar aren't even moving before getting cut down by Sidious.

And arguing the efficiency of their combat style given a very limited space is actualy completely logical. Mace for example always uses rather wide swings to generate some powerful strikes and the only people who did display some real close-range combat efficiency while fighting in a team in the SW saga are Anakin and Obi-Wan (when cutting down the droids in the elevator in RotS).

I personally wouldn't want to wield a weapon that cuts through everything instantly when I have three friends around me trying to find one opponent in very small space.

What quote ? That Kolar, Fisto and Tiin belong to the finest duellist the Order ever produced ? Where is the reason for that statement ? Cestus Deception has shown us that Fisto was only slightly ahead of AotC Obi-Wan when it came to lightsaber skill. The same Obi-Wan that got pretty much owned by Dooku (in AotC and RotS as well) who was definetely one of the best duellists the order ever produced. Tiin has never been noted to be an exceptional duellist and is more recognized for his piloting abilities. In fact most of his Clone War action happens in air combat. I don't get how this makes him an uber duellist. The only person there who might have had some serious lightsaber abilities (at least enough to be put into the "best fighters of the time" department) was Kolar who rather easily managed to disarm Quinlan Vos in a duel which is certainly nothing to scoff at.

Again: Where is the basis to state that those were some of the finest swordsman the order ever produced ? That aside from the fact that this comes from Mace's line of thought in novel, as far as I remember.

The novel was released at the same day as the movie and his based on a script prior to the movie version. Maybe somebody should get his timeline straight here...
We're not talking about some stupid choreography which is definetely present in the scene but more about the fact that a Sith Lord pulls out his lightsaber, activates it, spouts a "It's treason then" at the four Jedi coming to arrest him, jumps on them and cuts two of them down before one of them even moves (Windu aside who moves into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying).

The second Sidious activated his blade somebody should have floored him with a force push or some other force attack. They should at least have spreaded through the room instead of remaining so close to each other that they stand in each others way later. Hell...one should expect that some of the finest duellist in the Orders history would at the very least assume some defensive stance when a Sith Lord in front of them draws his lightsaber instead of just standing there, listen to him uttering another line and then get cut down like some living statues incidently standing in the way of Sidious blade.

It's not the bad choreography. It's the fact that they don't move at all that is the disturbing part there especially when they had plenty of time to do so.

The question actually is how "some of best swordsmen the order ever trained" is defined ? Top 100 ? Top 10000 ? I mean...assuming that the Galaxy has 1000 Generations of Jedi Knights (each generation up to 10000 Jedi) that would be 100,000,000. Even if they belong to the best percent of them there are still one million guys that might be equal or better.

Again: The very point is that there is no choreography and there is no source that offers a viable explanation why they actually didn't react. Because the fight as depicted in the novel is again completely different and it also doesn't get rid of the actual stupidity of those Jedi. Again Sidious gives some nice amount of speech before Windu and Fisto even move.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is a stupid take, Lightsnake. The novel doesn't need to absolutely contradict the movie - it just needs to be a little bit inaccurate in a certain situation. The fight sequences, compared to the movie, are completely lacking almost any link to the movie interpretation.
Considering during the Windu and Anakin/Obi-wan fight scenes, I don't think Stover describes many movies whatsoever...

Erm, yeah. Kind of my point.
Again, Nai...I could probably pull out a link where you argued, rather admirably I might add, that Mace's status as a great duelist shouldn't be contested because of his poor showing in the fight. You're totally unwilling to extend awful work in the scene itself to moments prior, and I've got no idea why

Given, yes

If I were one of the finest duelists who ever lived, knowing that my friend would die if if I didn't, on the whole also possessing incredible skills with martial arts as well? One might be willing to do something. Hell, by the flack they're getting, if someone took a kick at the back of Palpatine's knee, that'd be it

I was very unaware canon needed to justify itself with everything, Nai.

Yes, and Sora Bulq, one of the three people to ever master Vaapad was walked all over by Dooku in a straight fight, and Sora considered a 'grievous loss' to the Order. I wouldn't say 'got beaten by Dooku, described as one of the best duelists ever and one of the most powerful Jedi ever' is a huge demerit.
And when was Kit only slightly ahead of Obi-wan? I didn't read Cestus Deception, btw

he was noted by Mace as being an exceptional duelist and was a frequent sparring partner of Mace. He was also an exceptional pilot

Kolar was also held in extremely high esteem by Mace. And Mace has been in personal contact with this trio before. When Mace put into action his plan to storm the Crimson Nova guild and take on a legion of Bounty Hunters, he handpicks Kit, Saesee and Agen to accompany him.
Heck, Kit shows some nice-albeit nautical- abilities in the Clone Wars

Three seperate instances-narration, Obi-wan's dialogue and Mace's line of thought.
As far as actual showings go, to my knowledge, quite little. To the single line of dialogue there, and Mace's esteem of them?

Wasn't the novelization released a month earlier?

Again, Nai, this really fits into what I'm saying about how badly the scene was filmed, even moreso how Kit, Agen and Mace are unable to do anything-whether with the Force, or even resorting to martial arts. Mace, with his speed, could easily lay Palpatine flat in that amount of time.

Again, going back to my exact points about just how poorly the scene is. You're using it to say they suck, though. When I can apply the same thing for Mace Windu there and shortly therafter

Which, I believe, goes back to Lucas as well. I believe the way it was filmed is wildly idiotic too, don't get me wrong

I think that's rather pushing it. One would consider some of the best in what Lucas defined as the Jedi Prime to be a cut above the rest, for sake of argument

Shouldn't this reflect very poorly on Windu as well? The moment Palpatine had a saber in hand, Mace should've tried something with the Force, moved forward rather than waiting, ANYTHING.

The entire scene and the following fight scene was pure crap. It bugs me even moreso how Lucas meant to use it to establish Palpatine is very good, rather than the controversy over Kit, Agen and Saesee sucking (and as you said, Agen was capable of defeating Quin Vos, which isn't a small feat).
I'd even take a 'Palpatine used some random Sith technique to freeze them.' as an explanation

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering during the Windu and Anakin/Obi-wan fight scenes, I don't think Stover describes many movies whatsoever...

Erm. I guess you meant "moves". Yes. But his depictions of the other fighting scenes are completely off.

I've said, in general, that you shouldn't talk down characters because of bad choreography which is not the point here. The point is that they look at the Sith Lord pulling out his lightsaber, let him drop a nice line just to leap forward and kill two of them without even bothering to move a centimetre. Windu on the other handside, is shown to move in a defensive stance. He's the only one that shows any reaction to Sidious there.

The point is that even the finest duellist who ever lived wouldn't like to pose a risk to his friends wielding around a weapon that really cuts and kills anything on contact. And on this part Sidious does a really clever job by using the Jedi as living shields. First he prevents Agen from acting while using Saesee, then cuts down Agen and then basically twirls in between Kit Fisto and Mace. Tactically clever and surely some nice moves. The point is that the Jedi weren't putting up much defence anyway before three of them were down on the ground and surely didn't act smart in that situation. The novel depicts it, basically, the same way.

ROFL, Lightsnake. This statement isn't coming from the omniscient narrator, but from Mace Windu. And even if it would be a comment by the narrator, it would be a C-Canon comment because not being mentioned in the movies. And this means it's questionable if other C-Canon sources contradict that observation. That aside from the fact that we still don't mean what "the best" refers to.

Bulq was even trashed while Dooku fought him and Tholme together. The very point is lightsnake: You could put up somebody like Dooku among the best duellists ever to appear in the SW universe because he does pretty much trash almost anybody in his own era using a blade. But the three that accompanied Mace ? I mean. Looking upon the history of the Jedi Order I don't believe that they are something like the "top ten" when you consider that people like Mace, Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa are better then them and that's just the PT era.

Mace seems to hold all of the Jedi in very high esteem as far as Stovers novels are concerned. He puts Depa above himself in terms of bladework. He puts Yoda several leagues above himself in Shatterpoint and LoE multiple times. He verbally fellates Obi-Wan's lightsaber mastery in the RotS novel. Really.

To be honest: I don't know any more. But this would make your argument even worse.

Wow, Lightsnake. Who asked me since when canon has to justify itself ?

No. You can't. Because first Mace is actually shown to react on Sidious action unlike the other three and actually he does beat Sidious later on in the fight. So he can't suck in comparison to Sidious. And we have the later CGI version of Sidious doing a nice job with Yoda for some amount of time.

Yeah. IF Lucas had actionally mentioned that their lightsaber skill was in their prime, then you would be correct. Yet he didn't do something like that which means that point is up for discussion.

He moved into a defensive stance and survived. Notice how he couldn't move sidewards (other Jedi standing in their way) and forward would have made him collide with Sidious himself. And I pretty much doubt that he suggested that his fellow Jedi would get cut down by a single opponent (I guess the other 3 were also pretty surprised that Sidious did even attack).

Well. As I already told Gideon: This entire debate circling around Sidious and his action scene doesn't make any sense. The point here is Mace VS Kun. And as I said multiple times before: If you want to suggest that Kun is head and shoulders above Anakin in the force department and surely is nobody you can simply ignore when it comes to lightsaber skill - I don't get how DS adds that two points and reaches the conclusion that Anakin would defeat Kun in a lightsaber fight.

Darth Sexy

Because Nai, you seem to think offensive force powers and lightsaber combat are one in the same, whereas lightsaber combat is separate from an actual force battle. Being better with the force doesn't mean dick in lightsaber combat, as Mace showed against Sidious, and as Anakin showed against Dooku.

Gideon

Oh, I am more than aware of what this thread is entitled, Nai. But this is one of the points in not only Darth Sexy's argument, but yours as well, and so I felt that I would play my part as the "good samaritan" by coming out and correcting what I saw to be a flawed attempt at a flawed point.

This is misleading. By responding to it at all, you're undermining your point and efforts to keep this thread 'on-topic'. To point the finger at me in an attempt to shunt off all the blame would be deceptive. If you don't like the direction that the discussion is going, Nai, either concede the point or don't bother responding.

That's the genuine idea, Nai.

I'd like to think that it is completely relevant and surprisingly direct.

Let me get this straight: your reasoning is that Mace Windu allowed Sidious to reevaluate his stance and prepare himself, thereby continuing the duel, because his goal was to bring him in alive? That seems rather silly; why would Mace allow his opponent to continue fighting when -- according to you -- he was in a position to defeat him? What makes your interpretation of the scenario even more humorous is that line of thought would completely contradict and defy Mace's entire objective. By allowing Darth Sidious to defend himself, he risked the chance of being killed -- allowing Sidious to escape and conquer the Republic, as planned.

My apologies, Nai, but anyone who debates objectively would see the flaw in that.

Really? Because he runs into a hallway -- which is actually of smaller size than the room that they were just in. And, instead of actually forcing Sidious back into the room -- which, according to you, he is more than capable of doing given the disparity between them -- he is, instead, driven back into the main office itself. Once again, your reasoning is contradicted by the events that have taken place.

If you define "funny" as "highly logical and extraordinarily accurate", yes, I'd agree.

Yes, we've all heard your theory about how deeply terrible Masters Tinn and Kolar are with a lightsaber.

I'd blame it all on terrible choreography, but given a choice, I'd take the logical route and say "Sidious's speed".

"You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
-- George Lucas, The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.

...Terribly sorry, Nai, but George Lucas > you... and he says that you simply have to be Mace Windu or Master Yoda to compete with the Dark Lord of the Sith in a fight; so, yes, I'd say that that quote alone makes him an 'uber duelist'. smile

Is it?

Mace Windu couldn't overcome Darth Sidious even when he had the assistance of Kit Fisto, who is extremely talented with a lightsaber, fighting along side him. They'd fought together before, suggesting experience with one another and they knew how to complement the other's fighting ability... really, Nai, if Mace could "megapwn!11!" Sidious in a lightsaber duel -- he would have done so when Fisto was helping him.

Yet he didn't.

"But Sidious was out of melee range, Nai, so it doesn't count!1!"

Lol, yes, Nai. But, you see -- the thing is -- generally, when someone wants to take his opponent alive, that is dependent on two factors:

a.) Your opponent isn't armed or in a position to harm you.
b.) You need to remain alive to do it.

...So, by giving Sidious time to regroup and attack again, he compromises both of these, ergo, he is risking allowing the man who manipulated him and his peers for decades roaming free to continue some sort of megasupersecret plan involving galactic dominance.

Pardon if I don't think that Mace Windu would be so stupid to let that happen. wink

You're beginning to take my argument out-of-context, Nai. Try to keep it rational, here. I'm not arguing Sidious's 'superiority' in combat; I'm saying that Mace didn't initially have the advantage nor the ability to defeat Sidious. The 'poor choreography' involves Sidious's defeat of Masters Tinn and Kolar.

Err... "megaWTFpwn" Sidious while he had help? Or, better yet, while his back was turned during Fisto's execution?

Precisely.

If Mace can "megaWTFpwn" Sidious any time he likes, he would have -- being an aggressive fighter himself -- not run away at all, and rather, driven Sidious back into the main office rather than allowing the Sith Lord to do the reverse.

...And yet you still respond. So, what you're telling me is that, even though I'm "turning this thread into Mace vs. Sidious", you will respond but and give a rebuttal, but not provide proof?

That in itself says a lot.

I'm sorry that I've upset you, Nai. I guess that leaves you with a few options:

a.) Prove it, once and for all, and shut me up.
b.) Concede the point.
c.) Don't respond.

You clearly can't do A, and for whatever reason, you're unwilling to try the latter two.

Perhaps because, despite the years of inactivity, he's still good enough to keep up with the best of them? Besides, that doesn't necessarily say in itself that he's inferior. Kit Fisto was fighting in the Clone Wars and kept up with his lightsaber skills, yet he can't compare to Sidious, either. Again, according to Lucas, you have to be Yoda or Mace. No one else can compete with Sidious. I will grant you that doesn't say "lightsaber only", either. But -- then again -- in sheer bladework, Yoda himself might be the worst duelist. Afterall, he has to draw on the Force to maintain his agility and mobility more than Sidious himself has to. You have to think about these things, Nai.

Gideon

Excuse me? Nai, the last time I checked, Mace didn't force Sidious to do anything -- delving into Vaapad allowed him to match Sidious's speed. Not that he forced the Sith Lord to move slower.

And, again, if you're referring to lightsaber combat without using the Force to enhance one's skill and speed and strength, then you have the point, as I mentioned in my first response. But, like I told you, if that's the case, Yoda himself is pure shit when it comes to technical ability. Where would he be if he did not have the Force to enhance his speed and mobility?

Oh, I disagree.

Err... Nai, I'm a purple belt in Tae Kwon Do. Saberfighting and fencing? I'll grant you, I have no experience. But with martial arts? Lol, yeah. I tied for first place in my division (ironically, the adult division here) in Bowling Green's competition.

A fight's a fight, Nai. Grappling is as valid and as legitimate as a kick or a punch; in fact, overwhelming someone with a kick doesn't suggest any superiority with a blade.

Again, see the above.

Does Windu disarm Sidious by blade superiority? No. He disarms him -- ironically -- with superior physical ability. The same thing you credit to Anakin's victory.

Actually, I recall something similar. Oh, yes. Sidious forced Windu back down a corridor after killing two of his companions in as many seconds, and killed a third while combating him in tandem.

Holy shit.

Can it be that you're making unsupported assumptions? Holy crap. Yes! Can it be that you've claimed Sidious isn't an uber duelist, only to be proven wrong? Damn, yeah, I guess you have. Do you like this argument? Apparently not, as much as you're bitching about it. Yet are you responding? Sure are! And, do you have an unlimited resevoir of rhetorical questions? Seems so.

Err... since the 'mindset' is an integral part of mastering the form itself, yes, it's part of a 'pure lightsaber duel'. Mace's shatterpoint ability is a natural strength of his, so yes, it also belongs there. Boosting one's physical abilities is not the same as using a Force push or Force lightning, which are regarded as offensive Force techniques. Using the Force to enhance something that you will attack another with is not an "offensive Force maneuver" per se. Whereas a Force push, Force lightning, Force Storm, and so forth are direct Force-based attacks intended to harm, kill, or neutralize an opponent.

Nope. According to REX and several websites, G-Canon includes: George Lucas's interpretations, Lucas's published notes, the movies, the novelizations of the movies, and the scripts.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. I guess you meant "moves". Yes. But his depictions of the other fighting scenes are completely off.
The first scene, yes. The later ones? Not so much. Stover takes a philosophical approach and describes what the combatants are feeling. It's rare he describes a fight scene with many, if any, detailed moves

Yes, but the Mace we know and love should have lept to meet Palpatine in midair...before the saber was even lit, even, Mace should be vaulting across that room with the speed that almost broke Kar Vastor's nose before he completed a blink

Well, that's my point: Lucas wants to show Palpatine is good...to do so, he sacrificed any competence on the part of Agen and Saesee...though in some fairness, we see Palpatine rear back to thrust (God, did I just type that?) and impale Agen, who's holding his saber in a different position (I feel so dirty...)

Nai, I just bloody well said it's three separate instances! Mace's esteem of the trio, though, means something and you cannot deny that

pQuote]
Bulq was even trashed while Dooku fought him and Tholme together. The very point is lightsnake: You could put up somebody like Dooku among the best duellists ever to appear in the SW universe because he does pretty much trash almost anybody in his own era using a blade. But the three that accompanied Mace ? I mean. Looking upon the history of the Jedi Order I don't believe that they are something like the "top ten" when you consider that people like Mace, Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa are better then them and that's just the PT era.
Yes. However, that group you listed trumps just about anyone from any era. The group I'd put at the top of almost anyone, but still trumped by the tops from the other eras

Obi-wan is a damn fine Jedi Knight and as for Depa and Yoda, are you really surprised? Mace's esteem for Saesee and Agen precedes the ROTS novelization as well, I believe. Saesee, at the least, dates back to the early Republic comments when he and Mace were sparring partners

Eh, we'll skip the point then

We also have Vader fighting much better against Luke in ESB than he does in ANH....
That Mace reacts with a defensive position means little-he fails to save either of them, attack Palpatine when he is very clearly going to attack, and his fighting shortly thereafter? Nai, you can't deny you said that it looked like you could take him there with how badly SLJ was doing

In regards to combat? When it includes people like Dooku, Depa, Mace, Yoda, Anakin?

I'd be shocked if they weren't surprised-with how much Palp's choreography telegraphs his attacks there? Come on...Mace could have moved forward, used the Force...SOMETHING other than letting his comrades die.

Well, with Mace v. Kun...Kun in force, Mace in saber and neither by much.
As for Anakin....well, with saber I can see how it could be somewhat ambiguous there, but I'll admit Kun's above in the force

PRetty much, from here on, I can see Kun being on equal footing with the high Yoda/Mace/Palpatine tiers

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because Nai, you seem to think offensive force powers and lightsaber combat are one in the same, whereas lightsaber combat is separate from an actual force battle. Being better with the force doesn't mean dick in lightsaber combat, as Mace showed against Sidious, and as Anakin showed against Dooku.

Lmao. So you really want to tell me that a superior force user is not capable of entchanting his natural strength, speed and so on to a greater extend then a less powerful opponent ? You might want to go and tell that to Yoda because, using your stupid argument, he shouldn't be able to even hold his own against any other duellist in the PT era because he's physically far below anybody else. Yet, through his superior force mastery, he's capable of pretty much outduelling everybody else in the PT. Wow. Seems so that I'm right and you're wrong, dude.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao. So you really want to tell me that a superior force user is not capable of entchanting his natural strength, speed and so on to a greater extend then a less powerful opponent ? You might want to go and tell that to Yoda because, using your stupid argument, he shouldn't be able to even hold his own against any other duellist in the PT era because he's physically far below anybody else. Yet, through his superior force mastery, he's capable of pretty much outduelling everybody else in the PT. Wow. Seems so that I'm right and you're wrong, dude.

Good god Nai.. Increasing your natural strength doesn't make you a better lightsaber duelist.. I don't know why you're playing dumb. If you have a problem with this, see Dooku vs, Anakin, Mace vs. Sidious, Kun vs. Ulic, etc. These fights completely trump your ridiculous assertions. And it's not through superior face mastery that makes Yoda a great lightsaber duelist Nai. His force mastery is what allows him to flip and not get tired. Him training with a saber for nearly 9 centuries and having incredible raw force potential is what makes him a great lightsaber duelist.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Let me get this straight: your reasoning is that Mace Windu allowed Sidious to reevaluate his stance and prepare himself, thereby continuing the duel, because his goal was to bring him in alive? That seems rather silly; why would Mace allow his opponent to continue fighting when -- according to you -- he was in a position to defeat him? What makes your interpretation of the scenario even more humorous is that line of thought would completely contradict and defy Mace's entire objective. By allowing Darth Sidious to defend himself, he risked the chance of being killed -- allowing Sidious to escape and conquer the Republic, as planned.

My apologies, Nai, but anyone who debates objectively would see the flaw in that.

To elaborate further on that issue. He was clearly in a position to strike Sidious down as Sidious had his saber on his side low while Mace simply standing there ready to strike. He couldn't have disarmed Sidious from that position. The same thing basically happens again when Sidious goes down on his knees. Had Mace turned with his saber extended he would have lopped Sidious' head off.

And no. Mace's objective was to capture Sidious alive as (you might have noticed that) there was already some propaganda tossed against the Jedi accusing them of wanting to take over the Republic. Simply imagine what would have happened if some Jedi had just killed the Supreme Chancellor. Notice how Mace, even after having disarmed the Sith Lord, still doesn't seem to be willing to kill him. He first comes up with that idea after Sidious attacked him with force lightning, eventually realizing that he can't capture Sidious alive.

Wow, Escape. Can it be that Sidious main office is actually bigger then the room where the fight started ? Yes ? Damn it. Can it, therefor, be that Mace, utilizing wide swings in general, would find it easier to fight in the main office (that aside from not having to walk over the corpse of some of his former friends) ? Yes ? Damn it. And my interpretation is contradicted by the events that take place. That's why Mace suddenly takes the initiative and drives Sidious back almost immediatly when they arrive in the second room (after the saber lock) ? Damn it.

Yes. And because of what factors ? His uber blade style or the fact that he actually possesses an extremly high force mastery which allows him to enchance his speed to a level that not many Jedi (or to be exact just Mace and Yoda) are capable of putting something up against ? Notice how the key factor, if you want to go by the novel, is Sidious speed. Once he slows down, Mace disarms him.

You're still acting as if Mace and Kit kept raining down strikes on Sidious together - which didn't happen - and as if Mace was completely using all he could in that situation - which also didn't happen. And of course Mace can't pwn Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Why ? Because Sidious can enchant his natural abilities better because of superior force mastery. At least unless you want to tell me that Sidious sheer bladework rivals that of Mace Windu - after he didn't touch a lightsaber for roughly a decade. And that was the entire point in the actual discussion: That Exar Kun (if you grant him to be "head and shoulders above Anakin" in terms of force mastery) can boost his natural abilities more than Anakin can. So to state that Anakin would still defeat him in a lightsaber fight, you would have to estimate that Anakin's sheer bladework exceeds that of a guy who knows Anakin's style, uses a style unfamilar to Anakin and a unique weapon that Anakin is also not familiar with. Logic anybody ?

Pardon me if I point out once more that I don't have to argue that point because it visibly happens on screen in the movie. Or does that belong into the "bad choreography" department once more ?

Oh...the choreography is just bad when you want it to be ? Nice to know that, Escape.

Rofl. Just read that statement, Escape. Really.

Urm. No. I don't need to think about these things because they are exactly what I try to tell you the entire time while you seem to be unwilling to understand it. Because Sidious (like Yoda) can boost his speed and strength beyond almost anybody else, he can keep up and even defeat the people that can't do it to a similar degree. Regardless of their actual ability when it comes down to sheer bladework.

So one could say that the three Jedi he killed are simply not able to anticipate his speed (which is what the novel says pretty much) but Mace is (which is why he stays alive) and once the speed advantage is removed, Sidious can't keep up with Mace when it comes down to sheer combat ability. Hence he's disarmed.

Wrong. "Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the
slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

He forces Sidious out of the room which in results in his fear making him drop his speed. That's - of course - the novel interpretation. Possibly Mace's action to destroy the window resulted in the same effect looking at the movie. Point is: Mace forced Sidious to drop his speed and then disarmed him.

Yes, Escape. That was the entire point here. If somebody is above somebody else in terms of speed and strength (aka force powers) the opponent has to have the better bladework to defeat the better force user. Hence I said that Mace's skill with a blade is pretty much above that of Sidious and Sidious was capable of countering that by his superior force mastery.

Borbarad

Which is nice. Then you can tell us all how easy it is to aim a kick on a moving target on the size of two human hands (which would be what Mace did to disarm Sidious) in comparison to lean over and grap somebodies arms. I'm sure you'll spot a difference there.

Valid and legitimate ? Yes. As difficult as disarm sobody with a kick hitting his weapon ? Nope. And I know that this doesn't suggest superiority with a blade. See above for that.

In the novel - he does. However. The fact remains that Mace, while Sidious had the speed advantage, was still able to drive the Sith Lord back. Suggestion: He was superior when it came to bladework. You can't really state the same if you compare Anakin to Dooku.

Excuse me, Escape. But if you include Mace's Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability again, how do you want to argue that Sidious would win a fight under that conditions. There would be no difference to what we've seen in the movie...

Aside of that, to come to the original topic, I still don't see how excluding offensive force powers (which would be pretty stupid anyway) would help Anakin to win against Exar Kun.

And according to Leland Chee who has more to say on the issue the parts of the novelizations that aren't coming from Lucas directly (which would be everything we don't see in the movie) is C-Canon. There you go.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good god Nai.. Increasing your natural strength doesn't make you a better lightsaber duelist.. I don't know why you're playing dumb. If you have a problem with this, see Dooku vs, Anakin, Mace vs. Sidious, Kun vs. Ulic, etc. These fights completely trump your ridiculous assertions.

And how do they trumb my assertions ? Did Anakin outduel Dooku with superior blade mastery ? Nope. Next. Did Mace outduel Sidious with superior blade masttery ? Nope. Next. Did Ulic outduel Kun ? Nope. The fight had no conclusion but notice who did end up as new Dark Lord of the Sith. Ups. So what is it I should see from that fights ?

It actually allows him to pretty much dodge every attack thrown at him without effort (see Shadow Hunter where he displays that ability) and therefore go 100 % offensive. To state that his force mastery has nothing to do with his duelling skill is pretty stupid - especially because his fastness and mad movement abilities are always sited to why he's such a dangerous duellist.

Nice way to own yourself. So his raw force potential makes him a great duellist but his force mastery doesn't ? Go and play leapfrog with a unicorn, idiot.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
And how do they trumb my assertions ? Did Anakin outduel Dooku with superior blade mastery ? Nope. Next. Did Mace outduel Sidious with superior blade masttery ? Nope. Next. Did Ulic outduel Kun ? Nope. The fight had no conclusion but notice who did end up as new Dark Lord of the Sith. Ups. So what is it I should see from that fights ?
The fact that being a superior force user doesn't mean shit in lightsaber combat.. THATS the point I trumped. You can come here and claim that ANakin made one lucky move, but as soon as he immersed himself in the dark side, he outdueled Dooku. Mace eventually outdueled Sidious with his shatterpoint and Vaapad. Ulic stalemated a SUPERIOR force user in Kun. What DONT you understand?

Ok if you want to play the word game, we'll play. Force mastery CAN play a role in a lightsaber fight, but being the superior force use in no way guarantees any kind of victory in lightsaber combat.

Hey dumbshit, don't ***** because you make the most ludicrous assertions a 3 year old wouldn't even dare to. If you can't be civil, then shut the hell up. Learn to READ.. 800+ years in lightsaber training+raw abilities=great lightsaber duelist. Force mastery= ability to jump, spin, summersault, etc, at 800+ years. Yet his "force mastery" wasn't good enough to defeat a 63 year old sith lord.. I guess you don't understand the concept of force potential. IF you did you'd understand it's the reason that someone like Anakin can become a saber god in a fraction of the time it would take someone like Mace or Yoda.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The first scene, yes. The later ones? Not so much. Stover takes a philosophical approach and describes what the combatants are feeling. It's rare he describes a fight scene with many, if any, detailed moves

He's totally off with the Dooku VS Anakin / Obi-Wan stuff. His interpretation of the fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous (where Obi-Wan first kills several hundret droids before engaging the General) is also pretty off. And Sidious VS the three Jedi is also pretty far away from the movie interpretation (Tiin is beheaded, Kolar receives a stab into the forhead, Fisto is also beheaded). And because of that some lines of thought from the combatants don't make much sense.

Technically spoken: Yes. The point is: He is accompanied with three rather good Jedi Masters and enters the office to arrest a single person who's actual force mastery he wasn't capable of measuring before. Even when Sidious draws the weapon. That was still a 4on1 situation. I mean...how could they expect to get jumped there ? Yet still Mace does move into a defensive position at least while the rest of the group doesn't even react.

Yes. The point is that there are almost 20,000 years of the history of the Jedi Order which are totally uncovered by actual source material. Thus, even if there is just one Jedi in every generation being a better duellist than them, they would still end up somewhere in the Top 1000. The point is that certain people are simply playing in their own league.

Of course I could have taken SLJ there. I'd even go so far to say that I could mob up him and Ian together rather easily. The point is that Mace is the only person showing any reaction to Sidious igniting his blade. How that reaction looked is an entire different story.

The point is Lightsnake, that they didn't see much lightsaber to lightsaber fights in the past 1,000 years. I simply don't see why the average Jedi in the PT era should be better with a lightsaber then people who lived in ages that were coined by confrontation between Jedi and Sith.

Once Sidious landed ? Nope. I don't think so. He could possibly have reacted faster after Sidious did cut Tiin and Kolar down. Granted. But I mean. Had I stood there and seen how some old men lept over a freaking table to cut down two people I thought of being some of the best duellist ever I possibly would have stood there and thought "WTF ?" before doing anything.

Urm. Sorry. I meant Anakin and not Mace. And I still don't get how Kun vs Anakin in lightsaber combat would be "ambiguous".

OMG ! *Jaw drops to groundlevel*

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The fact that being a superior force user doesn't mean shit in lightsaber combat.. THATS the point I trumped. You can come here and claim that ANakin made one lucky move, but as soon as he immersed himself in the dark side, he outdueled Dooku. Mace eventually outdueled Sidious with his shatterpoint and Vaapad. Ulic stalemated a SUPERIOR force user in Kun. What DONT you understand?

What is it you don't understand ? Outduel means that they defeated their opponents through superior skill with the blade which did not happen. Got that now ? Your entire argument for Anakin being an uber saber combatant is based on a single action he didn't even use his saber in. Did that reach your brain now ?

And Kun is not only the superior force user (by far if I might add that) he also seems to be the superior guy when it comes to bladework. Unless you can show me where Anakin invented his own lightsaber form, mastered multiple styles, created his own unique shape of lightsaber and toyed almost anybody else in lightsaber combat he did ever confront. You might want to read "Path of Destruction" for further information on what it means to fight somebody equipped with a double-blade and then add the fact that Kun can switch the length and intensity of his blades while fighting.

We can also play the "DS doesn't have an argument and is just a mindless troll" game and remark upon the fact that you've still not presented a single line of thought (aka an argument) for why Anakin should be able to defeat Exar Kun in lightsaber combat. Which is pretty astonishing.

*yawn* Pathetic. Next please.

Your "saber god" obviously hadn't enough saber skill or "force potential" to avoid a nice lava bath against the guy who was almost singled out of the Jedi Order. Obviously you don't get anything here.

The point is that Anakin, while being one of the best duellists around, is just a form V master with exceptional skill. So is Kun. Now can you please (note: I'm being extremely civil here) explain me how you add knowledge of multiple forms, greater force mastery, a unique style and a unique weapon to that equation on Kun's side and then come to the conclusion that Anakin will win a lightsaber fight ?

Because that's like putting two equal weights on a scale, then add more weight to the one side and still assume that the weight you've put additional weight on will weigh less. Got that now ?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
What is it you don't understand ? Outduel means that they defeated their opponents through superior skill with the blade which did not happen. Got that now ? Your entire argument for Anakin being an uber saber combatant is based on a single action he didn't even use his saber in. Did that reach your brain now ?
YOU claim that the superior force user should be able to SOMEHOW outduel an inferior force user in saber combat. I not only showed you that not only are they independent of each other, but the superior force user doesn't necessarily win in a saber bout. Does that compute?

Well gee Nai, I didn't know inventing your own saber and style make you a saber god. I guess the inventor of the winchester rifle is super human. Since when does inventing your own saber and style make you a great duelist? Kun's ultimate saber feat was pwning Vodo and stalemating Ulic. Anakin WON the saber duel against Dooku. Yet again you can ***** and moan about how he got lucky, but he DID beat Dooku in saber combat after immersing himself in the dark side. I don't even know why you're throwing in POD into this debate. I don't know whether you're purposely playing stupid or you're just ignorant, because in POD, Bane, who was really a saber neophyte, was able to eventually learn every double bladed move backwards and forwards, and it was only AFTER Kas'im showed him the jar'kai style, was Bane owned.

I suggest you look up the definition for troll, as you started the name calling after throwing around a pathetic excuse for an argument. I should be calling YOU troll. What exactly have you provided for Kun? OH right, "omgz he invented his own saber and style, he must be zeh uber saber g0d". Except Anakin was able to PWN Dooku (yes *****), while Kun was able to pwn Vodo. Congratulations, you have no argument.

Your point is yet again defeated because the terms of the fight were well known, as are the ones between Bane and Kas'im. So please, stop pwning yourself with your pathetic attempts at logic. Not to mention, I never stated he was a saber god, but that he had the potential above anybody else and as a result of that he was able to learn quicker than others.

Multiple forms? So you're saying Anakin only knew one form? Greater force mastery is irrelevant and I've shown you why, so stop posting that.

Do you even READ the bullshit you type?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
YOU claim that the superior force user should be able to SOMEHOW outduel an inferior force user in saber combat. I not only showed you that not only are they independent of each other, but the superior force user doesn't necessarily win in a saber bout. Does that compute?

And you're trying to argue that the inferior force user and inferior saber combatant is going to win a lightsaber duel while trying to hand it out as fact that actual force mastery plays no role in lightsaber combat. Yet you do that while siting ambigious duels. Anakin VS Dooku: We know that Anakin had the greater force potential and we know that (see Luke in DE or ROTJ) some parts of said potential can be spontaneously activated. Is RotJ Luke a saber god because he was able to overcome the far more experienced Vader with a anger-fueled assault ?
In the duel of Mace vs Sidious, going by the novel, it's said that Mace was just capable of disarming Sidious when the Sith Lord sacrificed some of the power he used to enchance his speed to maintain a better grip on the ground.
And Ulic VS Kun ? There was no winner in this fight. And you should think about the fact that Ulic, without access to the force, was still capable of withstanding the assaults of an enraged Jedi (Sylvar) so I don't think you can talk down the influence of force mastery on lightsaber duels using that instance because he managed to last 30 seconds (maybe) against Exar Kun (who wasn't even in his top shape there compared to his own self half a year later).

Wow. It's nice that you site the invention of the weapon but ignore the invention of the style. So I guess that Bruce Lee, while inventing Jeet Kun Do, had no idea about martial arts, correct ? You think there is a reason why Exar Kun is the first person in the SW universe (considering reallife time of the releases) that is shown to wield two blades at once and is the first to use a double-bladed lightsaber ? This aside from extremely uncommon blade movements he's performing in the comics (constant rotation of his lightsaber when wielded with one hand, constant switching of the blade hand). Obviously Kun is an extraordinary lightsaber combatant even when he still trains under Vodo.

I'd say the list of people which did completely tool several century old Jedi Masters that were listed as "experienced duellist" and are shown to train the students of other masters in lightsaber combat is rather short. And for Ulic: The list of people without force sensitivity capable of holding their own against enraged Jedi in straight forward melee combat is also pretty short. Ulic is capable of doing that. I guess he was on an entirely different level when he had his force control and fought in a more aggressive way.

Yet still Anakin didn't overcome Dooku with his superior bladework (get it into your head) but overpowered him physically which he can't do with Kun. Got that ? Or to explain it to you in detail:

a) You seem to estimate that Dooku is similar to Kun. Which isn't the case. Kun is a much more aggressive fighter (notice that Dooku's style is based on counter-attacking and rather defensive) and physically fitter (raw physical power) then Dooku. They simply aren't compareable.

b) You seem to estimate that Anakin defeated Dooku because he's the superior lightsaber duellist. Again this isn't the case. Dooku's bladework is still superior to that of Anakin seen when he still deflects Anakin's most powerful swings rather easily when Anakin is already utilizing the Dark Side. Anakin overpowered him physically by using a highly unconventional move. Once more: He wouldn't do that with Kun.

c) You seem to estimate that Vodo and Ulic both don't hold any water to Dooku. Once more: Vodo is a very experienced duellist and seems to be the TOTJ era Battlemaster while Ulic is also exceptionally gifted in terms of lightsaber ability proven by the fact that he could contend with an enraged Jedi after having been stripped from his force connection.

And I did side POD because it pretty clearly says that it's pretty hard to predict the movements of a double-blade. And it's nice how you ignore that Bane went through months of personal training with a master of that weapon before he was capable of anticipating it's movement. You might remind me where Anakin did the same, though.

Except Anakin didn't pwn Dooku. He defeated him, yes. But that wasn't "ownage" on any degree especially since we see Dooku outright flooring Anakin who was attacking him from behind before and still being capable to contend with a Dark Side using Anakin. The same Dark Side using Anakin that was not able to overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi with his bladework. And Kun toyed with Vodo which indicates an entirely different level of superiority in comperison to that what Anakin had over Dooku.

Wow. Forgetting what you've posted in that short amount of time. Must be a bad case of Alzheimer there. Let me quote yourself: "IF you did you'd understand it's the reason that someone like Anakin can become a saber god in a fraction of the time it would take someone like Mace or Yoda."

And so Anakin isn't a saber god. Bad news for you: Kun is.

Let me see. Anakin most likely practiced form I (like any other Jedi), form V (his main style) and some Jar'Kai (seen in AotC). Kun is seen using form V, has been noted to have used form II, was most likely trained in form I like anybody else, used Jar'Kai on a more regular basis then Anakin and then came up with his own, unique style. Yes. I guess he knows more forms than Anakin does. And greater force mastery is irrelevant when you want to argue that greater strength, agility and speed have no influence on a duel - which would be unbelieveable stupid.

Lightsnake

Just curious: How does standing there with two sabers activated at one point show Kun regularly used Jar'Kai?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
And you're trying to argue that the inferior force user and inferior saber combatant is going to win a lightsaber duel while trying to hand it out as fact that actual force mastery plays no role in lightsaber combat. Yet you do that while siting ambigious duels.
No, you are CLAIMING that a superior force user would win a saber duel, and I'm simply refuting that. I have never written anything resembling an inferior force user AND saber combatatant would win, because that's just ridiculous. Furthermore, you are making the assertion that Anakin, or whoever you are mentioning, is the inferir saber combatant, in which case you have to prove it.
No, he wasn't, but the ROTS novelization describes the Dooku vs. Anakin fight. Anakin was already a saber prodigy who was among the best of the order, and he finally was able to best Dooku in saber combat through skill and the immersion of the dark side.

We saw the same fight didn't we? Mace and Sidious fought to a stand still. Mace's vaapad and shatterpoint are what allowed him to get the victory, yet Sidious was the SUPERIOR force user.

Except you made the claim that a superior force user should win a saber fight, for whatever reason. Kun, being the superior force user, was unable to overcome an inferior force user.

You stated that Kun should get the victory because of force mastery, and invention of saber and style, while I'm saying it's possible but in no way guaranteed. Furthermore, NOTHING indicates that Kun invented Jar'Kai. Great, we saw a picture of him..This indicates that he created it?

Oh wonderful, centuries old masters denote power now? Please quantify "experienced duelist", because aside from making his stick powerful, there's no indication that Vodo was a saber powerhouse.

What exactly makes you think he can't do it to Kun? Especially since his own son was able to overpower a ROBOT (vader).

Does this somehow make Kun the superior saber fighter between the two? I don't think so.

BEcause you're assuming Kun is physically superior to Anakin. Please provide proof.

Vodo doesn't hold any water to Dooku. Ulic might.

You just pwned yourself here Nai. I guess you conveniently failed to remember when Kas'im said that "the double blade may seem more difficult to overcome, but it's all in your mind. In fact it's a lot easier, because you can anticipate the second blade's movement by watching the first".

This is a valid argument, if Vodo was even in Dooku's league.

And so Anakin isn't a saber god. Bad news for you: Kun is.
THis must be more ridiculous fanboyism. What exactly makes Kun a saber god that wouldn't make Anakin? They're both prodigies, but neither are considered saber gods. Luke is a saber god. DE Sidious is a saber god, that's about it. Defeating Vodo doesn't make you a saber god, sorry Nai.

Gideon

Absolute bullshit, Nai. Your interpretations of the movie is as subject to bias as anyone else's; I could just as easily say that -- since Sidious had his lightsaber pointed directly at Windu's chest (with Windu's weapon out to the side) he could have just darted forward (since he is still faster than Mace at that point) and skewered him through the chest, but -- for some reason -- decided not too.

You'll need a bit more substance in your argument if you even want to dream about going down this route.

.

...Did I contest that, Nai? No. You said that Mace let Sidious reevaluate his stance and defend himself which puts his entire objective into sheer jeopardy! What if Sidious had killed him? Then what? There's no Jedi on the planet who can contend with him, especially when he has the full military might of the clone army with him. Mace allowing Sidious to defend himself contradicts his entire effort to disarm and render the Sith Lord powerless, politically and otherwise.

Yet can it be that the long corridor with which they are entering is even smaller than the private office? Yes? Damn it.

.

Yet -- therefore -- if that was his intention and he is, supposedly, vastly ahead of Sidious in lightsaber abilities, he could have forced Sidious on the defensive and still managed to make it into the main office, thus accomplishing his supposed goal of more space and then some? Yes? Damn it.

Did he? Nope.

So, who then, logically, had the advantage? Sidious? Catching on, I see. wink

Immediately? Nope. They fight on even terms for several seconds before Mace gains the upper hand, thus coinciding with the novel's interpretation.

And this is within the context of a duel. Will Sidious's Force mastery be a large factor on how duels conclude? Yes? Damn it. Guess Sidious really is -- overall -- "an uber duelist". smile

Jesus, Nai, am I arguing that Anakin would kick Kun's ass? No. Because you're right -- Kun is stronger than Dooku and wouldn't as easily fall susceptible. But, that said, you ought to read Advent's argument on the issue. She makes a very convincing argument.

The. Entire. Duel. Is. A. Legendary. Example. Of. Terrible. Choreography. Ian. And. Samuel. Are. Old. Men. Which. Is. Why. They. Should. Not. Be. Even. Looking. At. A. Lightsaber. Prop. Notice. How. Much. Better. The. CGI. Duels. Are. Than. That. Piece. Of. Shit. We. Call. Mace. Versus. Sidious.

...And pardon me if I point out to you that you are not pointing out what happens on screen. You're attempting to justify the reason behind it, which was not shown on screen, ergo, it is only your interpretation, and a fallible one at that since you haven't even attempted to provide evidence.

I did. I was the one who wrote it. Jesus, Nai, Publius's documented accounts of Sidious's lightsaber skills prior to TPM make anything Mace has done look like a retarded four year old playing around with a glowstick. It's not a stretch to say that the guy -- while not in top form or better than Yoda or Windu -- is still good enough to keep up with the best.

"I don't need to...", "I don't need to...", "I don't need to..." -- it's like the third time in this post you've said it. If you're not going to back your posts up, don't bother continuing this argument. Yoda, like Sidious, is shit when it comes to your definition of "pure lightsaber skills", then, Nai. One's a weakened and stressed 60-year-old man who is taxed by the dark side. The other is an eight century old alien with virtually no mobility outside of his ability to use the Force. Yet Yoda's heralded by multiple Jedi and Count Dooku as being a 'terrific duelist' and 'skilled with a lightsaber' -- yet we all know if you strip away his Force usage, my two-year-old nephew would beat the shit out of him. I don't know if you're arguing it, or if DS is, but Force strength and saber skills aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again, I didn't argue with this.

You make it sound as if Mace's Vaapad forced Sidious's speed to turn sluggish; to elaborate clearer next time: he took over the direction of the fight. Because at that point, he was the superior combatant.

Now this, I can agree with. But, like I said, it doesn't matter. Because, obviously, Mace is leagues above Yoda in pure lightsaber ability, as is Sidious, as is Dooku. Hell, one could argue Anakin and Obi-Wan are leagues above Mace, since, for all his strength, he's a fifty-something-year old man.

Darth Sexy

Wait escape, where does Publius talk about Sidious' saber skills pre TPM, I want to read that.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, you are CLAIMING that a superior force user would win a saber duel, and I'm simply refuting that.

No. You try to refute that by citing some duels that were one by highly unconventional movements and not by superior skill with a saber. Compare you two instance to the list of duels where the more powerful force user actually did win.

No. You are assuming that Anakin is somehow the superior duellist in comparison to Exar Kun because otherwise your assertion that he, despite having inferior force powers, would be able to defeat Kun doesn't make any sense. So proof it. And don't use the Anakin VS Dooku fight because that wasn't won with superior duelling skill.

Dude. He did not best Dooku in saber combat. Did you watch the movie ? He doesn't outduel hin but immobilizes Dooku's saber hand and then cuts his hands off.

So wow. Because Mace had Vaapad that countered the Dark Side of Sidious and because he had a unique ability he did win. Great. Again: Completely stupid example because Anakin has neither of those and Mace without those abilities, would have lost against Sidious.

The reason is that in most situations in the SW universe the superior force user does actually win. Hell...read TUF when Luke runs through the lines of the Yuuzhan Vong and notice what enables him to do so ? His pure bladework. Nope. His force control that turns him into a "maelstrom". Oh yes. That was the thing. Did you read POD ? Kas'im pretty much says that superior force mastery at a certain level turns every style and movement pattern somebody learned null and void.

Who said that he created it ? I was just saying that he's the first being in the SW universe wielding two lightsabers at the same time. I know that the style didn't originate from Exar Kun. Wonder why you don't know that. And I'm just questioning the entire time how you think Anakin would overcome Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel ? And I still don't have any answer to that question.

Aside of training virtually everybody seen in the comics in lightsaber combat. Holy shit. No. They would chose a freaking idiot who can't think and talk at the same time to train the next generations of Jedi in lightsaber combat. Or would they chose one of their best ? I can't decide. Really. Shall we go with the idea that Vodo actually sucked in lightsaber combat. I wonder how this freaking people around in the KotoR time - which were most likely his former students - got their lightsaber skill from. Hell...technically every Jedi from the TOTJ time on should suck because Vodo, the nobody, trained most of them.

What kind of bullshit is that ? Anakin must be able to beat Kun because Luke was able to defeat Vader ? Holy shit.

Yes. You don't think. Which is the entire problem here.

He can punch his damn fingers through the skull of the Supreme Chancellor, then lift him up holding him like that with arm rather easily ? He is capable of forcing Sylvar (who was capable shattering a helmet and tool some Massassi with her physical abilities) on her knees by pushing her down with one hand ?

And your proof for that assumption would be what exactly ?

ROFL. Is it "make up some quotes" day again ? Kas'im doesn't say that it's easier to overcome a double-blade in comparison to a lightsaber (which would make no sense at all). What he said is that here:

"In combat, your mind tries to keep track of each blade separately, effectively doubling the number of possibilities. But the two blades are connected: by knowing the location of one, you are automatically aware of the location of the other. In actual practice, the double-bladed lightsaber is more limited than the traditional lightsaber. It can do more damage, but it is less precise. It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust. Because the weapon is difficult to master, however, few among the Jedi-or even the Sith-understand it. They don't know how to attack or defend effectively against it. That gives those of us who use it an advantage over most of our opponents."

The point here is that those limitations don't apply to Kun's lightsaber because he's capable of altering the blade intensity meaning he can utilize his double-blade like a regular lightsaber. Even if Anakin is capable to realize that he just has to follow one blade to know the location of the other (and he wouldn't be able to do so unless you present me proof he practiced against a double-blade on a regular basis), he wouldn't know jack shit about the other properties of Kun's weapon (altering blade intensity and blade length).

But nice that I owned myself.

And this would be a valid rebuttal if you had proof that he isn't.

DE Sidious doesn't strikes me that great with a lightsaber actually.
And Kun ? He defeats his master in a duel when Vodo has obviously never been defeated before (hence he calls Kun his greatest student ever immediatly where we know that normally "only Sith deal in absolutes" wink

. Then he redicously tools the same guy later (with new style and weapon). He "stalemates" Ulic in terms of bladework who, with his sheer blade ability and without force powers, was capable of holding his own against a enraged Jedi. Kun simply is the best duellist in his era and that's a position that Anakin can't claim.

@Escape:

You realize that this single statement there makes your entire argument absurd, considering what we talked about in the first place, right ? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. You try to refute that by citing some duels that were one by highly unconventional movements and not by superior skill with a saber. Compare you two instance to the list of duels where the more powerful force user actually did win.
No, I cite duels where the superior force user did NOT win. I don't know why you keep arguing.

Are we back on the subject that having superior force powers guarantees a lightsaber victory? Are you purposely ignoring proof that it isn't? I'm not out to prove that Anakin won(he won the saber duel despite you calling him lucky or unconventional). I'm out to prove that the superior force user is in no way guaranteed to win a saber duel, which I have.

Did he do this with a magic spell? I recall seeing him do this with a saber.

Yet more ridiculous and unsubstantiated, yet biased assumptions. Without Vaapad and Shatterpoint, Mace and Sidious were EQUALS. There is NOTHING to suggest otherwise. In fact their fight proves EXACTLY this, until Mace immerses himself in Vaapad and finds Sidious' shatterpoint. This is just ridiculous logic on your part Nai.

However... Page 150. "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the force". I guess that pretty much destroys your argument.

Because in teh z0ne Anakin was able to overcome Dooku. Are you going to claim now that Exar Kun>Dooku in saber combat? If so, make another thread.

We don't have to go by the idea that Vodo sucked, but nothing even comes close to making him seem like a saber powerhouse, so it would be up to you to prove it.

No, but like Anakin, Luke was powerful enough to beat down on a robotic Vader. I'll get you some sources from lightsnake that show Anakin's physical abilities.

Oh yes, after typing out a bunch of biased, illogical assertions, I doubt you're any kind of authority on "thinking".

Through the skull? Gee Nai you must have missed the amulet glowing when he digged his fingers INTO the Chancellor. Yea, that was KUN's physical strength alright.

I don't have to prove the negative here Nai.

I'm glad DE Sidious doesn't strike you as ...... His incredible speed and skill killed stormtroopers that were around him. I'd say at the very least, he is second to Luke in saber combat. Anakin can't claim the position because:
A. He's what, 22?
B. You have Mace, Yoda, and Sidious, who would all give Kun a difficult time, if not beat him.

Faunus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, but like Anakin, Luke was powerful enough to beat down on a robotic Vader. I'll get you some sources from lightsnake that show Anakin's physical abilities.The rest of the argument is between you and Nai, but this is f*cking retarded. It had to be said.

Darth Sexy

Oops, Luke thing wasn't even supposed to be in there, it was a mere thought. My point was that Anakin possesses great physical strength and that I needed to get sources from lightsnake showing his various feats.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, I cite duels where the superior force user did NOT win. I don't know why you keep arguing.

I keep arguing because that duels are exception to the rules where the prior advantage in terms of force mastery was negated. Anakin vs Dooku receives a power boost by allowing himself to utilize his dark emotions (similar to Luke in RotJ) that makes him more powerful for a short amount of time in which he's capable of surprising Dooku with a highly unorthodox movement. His average skill-level in terms of force control and bladework is still below that of Dooku even when he enters "the zone".
And in the fight between Mace versus Sidious, Mace did benefit from the fact that he possessed a very rare ability that is especially useful against Dark Siders (his Vaapad mindset) and a completely unique ability (his Shatterpoint ability) which he both needed to defeat Sidious.

So you are still arguing based on exceptions rather then the rule. In general the more powerful force user will be the one that walks out alive of a lightsaber duel.

No. If you add highly unlikely conditions to a fight, then the better force user might lose. Still we don't play the "assume that one opponent has his lucky day" game here.

Anakin's hand is a lightsaber ? Nice to know that.

Can you read, DS ? Somehow I doubt it. With his Vaapad abilities used to the fullest extend (at least if you want to go by the novel) Mace and Sidious were equals. The Shatterpoint ability was that tipped the balance in favor for Mace. Without both abilities, Mace would have lost against Sidious.

No. That just brings up the question again why you think that Anakin is better trained in lightsaber combat than Exar Kun because there is nothing to base that assumption on.

And in "teh z0ne" Anakin was not able to overcome Obi-Wan. Are you going to claim now that Obi-Wan > Dooku and Exar Kun in saber combat ? If so, make another thread.

But just for your information. We had some nice debates here regarding Dooku's abilities and if I remember correctly he was sorted to one level with people like Malak and Ulic at that time. So I guess Kun is superior to him in saber combat not to mention that he's definetely superior to Dooku when it comes to force abilities and raw physical shape.

Really. The omniscient narrator claims that Vodo is an "experienced duellist" which means that he, obviously, had some experience real duels otherwise that statement wouldn't make much sense. We see that he's capable of defeating Kun in their first engagement by finding the balance point of his apprentice and simply sent him flying - and this against the same Kun he noted to be the most formidable student he ever had. And there is the fact that he trained all Jedi in lightsaber combat on Ossus.

Does that make him a saber powerhouse ? No, because we don't see him fight with a lightsaber really. Does it make him a being that is quite skilled in the art of combat, in fact more skilled than most if not any other Jedi Master in his own era going by the fact that they take their students to him to be trained in that department ? Quite likely. So what do you think how good somebody must be to toy with such an individual and leave it without the slightest chance to win ?

a) I agree with Faunus here.
b) Having to ask Lightsnake for some sources says a lot about your ability to debate SW related topics.

In comparison to you a dead starfish is an authority when it comes to logical reasoning.

No. It was the glowing of his amulet that did put the fingers through the Chancellors skull. Oh wait. Kun always wears this amulet so it doesn't matter if that action was aided by his force abilities (and I'd say the amulet was glowing because he used some sort of mind-control on the Chancellor).

No, of course. I know that logical reasoning isn't your cup of tea. We could continue the debate on your level. For that we just need to repeat the line: "No you're wrong because I'm correct" as long as one of us succumbs to inevitable boredom.

ROFL, DS. So his force mastery which doesn't influence lightsaber abilities is what makes him an uber duellist. Nice way to turn your entire argument into absurd babble by stating yourself what you wanted to question the entire time. WTF ?

Can somebody translate this for me ? You might want to get your own thoughts straight before trying to debate, DS.

And that must be the most stupid thing I've read from you so far. So you don't know how strong Anakin is because you don't know any feat that speaks for his physical strenght. Yet you still argue that he must be stronger than Kun ? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lightsnake

After driving Dooku back, using his form which specializes in brutal swings and attacks. You think of Anakin was losing, he'd be able to reach out and grab Dooku? If Dooku had the upper hand would Anakin be capable of it?

He does sort of disprove this later on himself when he assaults Bane with Jar'Kai

I'm going to ask again: Where is Kun shown practicing Jar'Kai on a regular basis?

Virtually 'everyone?' He trains a select group of young knights and is apparently extremely close with the masters who send their pupils over. Ood Bnar's pupils sure didn't train with Vodo, since he taught them about saber combat himself...
And where do you draw the conclusion so many people in KOTOR were Vodo's former students? Precisely one is known as such: Krynda Draay. Many others would be:
A. Not born yet
B. Padawans at the time of the Great Sith War
I'm not doubting more than a few were Vodo's padawans or students at some point of anything....but 'trained most of them?'

He can out muscle Sylvar in a sparring match, yes. He shoves her back viciously under her chin and raises his saber before she can recover, yes. Anakin is quite capable of immobilizing Dooku, who is able to send much younger and healthier men flying backwards with a mere kick, parrying a monster like Grievous's blows without even a sign of exhaustion and toy around with Ventress, who isn't a featherweight physically.
And also, Nai...look at their chancellor: He's a cephalapoid...have you ever held one? They don't have bones or many structures others would...they're skin is soft and rubbery....this isn't a feat for average Joe Bob, but it does NOT prove Kun's physical superiority

Considering the Halcyons are fully capable of doing things like that, so?
Altering 'intensity' means little, unless Anakin's skin can repel sabers at lower intensities-and I don't think they'll be using the training settings- nor will blade length be much an issue, unless Anakin falls for the same trick that killed one of the Domain Shai warriors (And Corran Horn even says that trick won't work on a more experience warrior)

Don't ask for negative proof, Nai. Either Vodo has valid evidence to stack him against Dooku, described as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history (ROTS visual guide) who only got more powerful as a Sith Lord, or he doesn't. It's that simple.

He's described as a master of all the saber's forms and styles, his bladework is described as 'flawless', he's able to move incredible fast, toy with Luke Skywalker (Just read the narration of Luke in issue 1...his skill with a saber is held to be even greater than his skills with the Force and considering he's able to destroy an army of advanced battle droids with a series of gestures and bring down an AT AT? That's pretty damn formidable)
And if you're going to bring up the Luke/Palpatine duel? I'll save you some typing: Don't. We've gone over that before plenty of times and for some reason you keep ignoring the bit where Luke enters into the state of oneness with the Lightside that Ganner and Jacen did in the NJO, while Palpatine did the same with the Dark Side.

Where are you POSSIBLY drawing that Vodo was never defeated before?
and if this is a reference to their first fight, being put on one's rear end and making a sudden comeback doesn't count as 'effortless.'

Let's start by defining 'era,' to be precise. does it extend to Revan's time?

Moreover, Ulic did nothing more than fend off a berserker nowhere near in control of her mind-impressive? Yes. claim to fame? No. The Ulic of years before was a different man when he fought Kun. If Ulic had continued to fight Sylvar, you think he would've walked away? He was fully prepared to die when she attacked him at the end. I doubt he wanted to, but he was prepared to.

No, Anakin can't claim that he's the best duelist of his era. But then, unlike Kun's era, his era has a large abundance of exceptional duelists: Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Depa, Anoon, Cin, among others. Would an argument to disprove Kun against Mace in sheer bladework be in effect because Mace is second to Yoda of his era? Or would Ulic be considered the superior as he's the second best of his era, while Dooku occupies a rung several spaces below that?

It's not a good way to decide this.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
After driving Dooku back, using his form which specializes in brutal swings and attacks. You think of Anakin was losing, he'd be able to reach out and grab Dooku? If Dooku had the upper hand would Anakin be capable of it?

No. I think that his form utilizing brutal swings and attacks didn't help him much against Dooku when he was fighting the Sith Lord before utilizing his darker emotions. The key to victory obviously lies in Anakin's force potential and not in his bladework. Which is pretty much contradicting to the point that DS tries to make here.

Because he uses a fighting style that Bane is completely unfamiliar with and therefore not able to anticipate is. That is exactly the same what would happen to Anakin when engaging Kun in a lightsaber duel.

I just said it seems so because he kept running around with two lightsabers on his belt which is something that a normal Jedi wouldn't do.

Where ? Aside of that: The same Ood Bnar that says to Kun that combat is not his skill ? Thon also talks about lightsaber combat with Nomi yet he still ships her to Vodo for the actual instruction.

A) As it seems all people in the series have been to Ossus as nobody is shown wondering himself when visiting the place with the exception of Nomi Sunrider. So I guess they all received some training there.

B) At least the people not shown to have other masters and are trained "off planet" would most likely be trained by Vodo. Notice that Ossus was the main training facility of the Jedi Order before it's destruction.

C) Going by A+B there must be a fair share of people around that received lightsaber training from Vodo, even in Revan's time if they were old enough. Atris and Vrook would be definite possibilities.

Dooku's ability to kick people has something to do with his hands ? And notice how Dooku parries blows. I doubt that he needs much strength for that. He's a fencer...

No. I surely never held some alien. He has no bones ? Sorry LS. If that was true he wouldn't look like he does. He either needs an exosceleton or bones.

Huh ?
The point about altering the intensity, Lightsnake, is that Kun can turn his lightsaber blade into an intangible lightbeam. This allows him to utilize the weapon without limitations of a regular double-bladed lightsaber and I guess it would cause some confusion confronting an enemy that can switch the intensity of his weapon like that considering one would expect to hit the opponents blade with your his own instead of "cutting" right through it.

I was merely remarking upon the fact that his skill in lightsaber combat is mainly fueled by his vast force abilities.

From the fact that Vodo immediatly states that Kun is his greatest student ever once Kun defeated him in combat. I meant that he was never defeated by one of his former students, obviously.
And no. This was a reference to their second confrontation where Kun toyed with Vodo and tooled him.

Does that matter ? Kreia pretty much thinks that any ancient Sith Master would run through every being in the KotoR time rather easily. The Ancients considered Kun to be their ultimate successor. I doubt that somebody from the KotoR era can beat Kun in a lightsaber duel.

Fending of a mindless berserker ? Thrusting your interpretation that is what Obi-Wan did with Anakin at the end of RotS. The point is that in all instances we see the Dark Side making people stronger in actual confrontation, Sylvar was nothing to scoff at before - yet Ulic, which doesn't have any force connection, is still able to keep up with her in melee combat ? How many people have you seen in the SW universe that are capable of holding their own against a Jedi in straight forward melee combat without utilizing some dirty tricks (Jango Fett at Galidraan) or utilizing the enviroment in some spectacular ways ?

Do you really want to assume that all rather gifted lightsaber combatants popped up in just the PT era and only there ? Or is it more logical to assume that every era had at least some duellist that would be on the same level (in general terms) than those PT people ? The point is that the people of the PT era have more sources that actually make them lightsaber prodigies but I doubt that the average skill increased so much over time (especially when their was no need for actual lightsaber to lightsaber combat), that all "uber duellists" are born in the PT era - even if that is the "golden age of the Jedi".

IKC

"Golden Age" of the Jedi is subjective, remember. The Jedi measure themselves by far different means than do the Sith. It certainly was a golden age of galactic peace.

Darth_Glentract

I just want to insert a quick point here. In reference to the Sith Meditation sphere Alema is using as a ship in the later Legacy books (pg. 65) "It had served Master's more powerful than she could imagine." Who is this in reference too? Most likely the Ancient Sith, perhaps Naga Sadow himself. Now, we can't assume that it has any knowledge of how powerful Sidious was, but we know for certain that it had at the very least encountered Lumiya, Alema, and Jacen and felt (keep in mind that it is a machine so it's memory would not be distorted by legend as it was actually there serving them) that the Ancient's were much stronger than all of them. I find this very compelling evidence to the Antediluvian mindset in reguard to the Ancient Sith; basically over-ruling the statements of most users here today.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I think that his form utilizing brutal swings and attacks didn't help him much against Dooku when he was fighting the Sith Lord before utilizing his darker emotions. The key to victory obviously lies in Anakin's force potential and not in his bladework. Which is pretty much contradicting to the point that DS tries to make here.
Fair enough

The difference is, Kas'im turns the idea that force power matters more on its head with that.
Moreover, style doesn't equal sheer victory. Nor confusion. Anakin has faced Jar'Kai and DBL users before, after all

Kun's not a normal Jedi, anyways.

Presumably because Thon is physically incapable of wielding a lightsaber?
And Shala from Darkness and Light was Ood's pupil...he taught her about saber combat and gave her the Solari crystal.

When is Vodo shown to be making his home on Ossus there?

Vodo was on Dantooine, if my memory serves...Arca was on Arkania as well.
Where are you drawing these conclusions from? Vodo's not the only Master there, not by a long shot. Again: the masters who send their students to Vodo appear to be extremely close friends with him, which makes quite a bit of sense.

You're putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5. People were trained on Ossus, OK. People had 'other masters' at points...thgus it must logically follow Vodo trained them? Come on now.

...and Atris? Atris looks in her 30s-40s. Tops. Having white hair nonwithstanding, she appears young....young enough to be a contemporary of and care about The Exile.

You sure as hell need strength to block an overhand strike from Grievous and kick a man a fraction of your age across the room. Why would his legs have power and not his hands? Does he selectively power them up?

Just like Durge, whose body has absolutely no bones or organs ? Just like a Kaleesh or humanoid insect? Look at him, Nai-he's a cephalapoid. They generally aren't heavy.

I'm confused...'intensity' with lightsaber refers to the cutting power-lowest settings are used for training since they don't cut flesh, highest will slice through Mandalorian iron.
People in the PT and NJO eras can alter saber intensity as well.
and also, outside of Supershadow's claims, since when do sabers cut other sabers?

Alright

Which totally rules out defeats from other Masters, the Gank Massaces, The Third Schism, etc?

Gotcha

Kreia said absolutely nothing about that in regards to someone like Kavar, Revan, Malak, etc....and from what we've seen? Anyone of those three can contend with great Ancients like Naga or Ludo

Sylvar was nothing to scoff at sure: She's already out of her mind with rage and fury and Ulic spends time either parrying, or fleeing. He doesn't 'keep up' with her for any significant length: He deactivates his saber after lecturing her and the fight ends.
And off the top of my head, btw: Phow Ji, Durge, Grievous, Shimrra, Tsavong Lah....presumably others, but I can't recall at the moment

Did I say that? No, I'm pointing out how ludicrous it is to say "Well, this guy was the top of that era and that guy wasn;'t of his, so the first guy wins!"

And there wasn't much saber to saber combat in the KOTOR era, either. Three major conflicts over the course of...300 years do not expert saber duelists make.
There's the Third Schism, quickly ended with the Vultar Cataclysm
There's the Great Sith War...and you can count the instances of straight saber combat there on your hands...and maybe still have fingers left over.
The Jedi Civil War: Only real war there where saber combat is really widespread.
Either the elite people of the KOTOR era have evidence putting them above the PT giants, or they don't.

Saber masters of the KOTOR eras would include: Exar, Ulic, presumably Vodo, Revan, Kavar, Malak
Of the PT era: Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Anoon, Cin, Anakin off the top of my head.
Now, let's say for the sake of argument Mace is the second best duelist of PT...Is he incapable of beating Exar because he's not the master of his era and Exar's the master of his own?
That's the point I'm trying to make...I find great flaws in that argument. Yes, it's logical to assume they're 'on par', but writing someone off like that seems folly

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I just want to insert a quick point here. In reference to the Sith Meditation sphere Alema is using as a ship in the later Legacy books (pg. 65) "It had served Master's more powerful than she could imagine." Who is this in reference too? Most likely the Ancient Sith, perhaps Naga Sadow himself. Now, we can't assume that it has any knowledge of how powerful Sidious was, but we know for certain that it had at the very least encountered Lumiya, Alema, and Jacen and felt (keep in mind that it is a machine so it's memory would not be distorted by legend as it was actually there serving them) that the Ancient's were much stronger than all of them. I find this very compelling evidence to the Antediluvian mindset in reguard to the Ancient Sith; basically over-ruling the statements of most users here today.
When did Jacen meet the blasted sphere? When did it serve him?

Oh, and the idiot bugslut's 'imagination' being your measuring stick? Using someone who's mentally ill?

Come on now, Glentract, you can do better than that. The Ancients stronger than Jacen? Who can go toe to toe with LUKE? Please...no, Glen, you're just desperate to accept any scrap of info to return to the old ways...even if it's a comparative weakling who can't fight off Jagged Fel's warped mind.

Oh, and it served Naga Sadow? Yeah, right. His meditation sphere was incinerated, remember?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by IKC
"Golden Age" of the Jedi is subjective, remember. The Jedi measure themselves by far different means than do the Sith. It certainly was a golden age of galactic peace.
Sure it is.
The reference of combat in the context, of course, was entirely gratuitous.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When did Jacen meet the blasted sphere? When did it serve him?

Oh, and the idiot bugslut's 'imagination' being your measuring stick? Using someone who's mentally ill?

Come on now, Glentract, you can do better than that. The Ancients stronger than Jacen? Who can go toe to toe with LUKE? Please...no, Glen, you're just desperate to accept any scrap of info to return to the old ways...even if it's a comparative weakling who can't fight off Jagged Fel's warped mind.

Oh, and it served Naga Sadow? Yeah, right. His meditation sphere was incinerated, remember?

1. It serving Naga was just a guess from the top of my head. I'm at an off-block at school, so I didn't really put too much thought into it. It's even more curious then that the ship may have felt a Sith lesser than Naga more powerful than he had met in Alema's time.

2. Ben brought the sphere to Jacen and Jacen later gave it to Lumiya. I forgot Naga's sphere was incinerated, so I won't rub it in your face that you forgot her if you don't rub that in mine.

3. I made it rather clear in my post that the sphere had never met anyone such as Sidious (and Luke is above Sidious) so it couldn't know how powerful they are. However, it did know about Jacen (who turns out to be even less powerful than thought perviously as his flow-walking technique is kept from causing major space-time changes by the Force itself). Jacen can't go toe-to-toe with Luke. If Luke was going anywhere near his best I'm very confident that he would obliterate Jacen.

4. The "idiot bugslut's" imagination is not my measuring stick. What the ship believes is. The ship met Jacen and Lumiya, so it obviously would consider them within Alema's level of imagination.

5. Really, all I'm saying is that this further's the school of thought that they're way up there, even though they are not the strongest ever to have lived.

Darth_Glentract

Saber masters of the KOTOR eras would include: Exar, Ulic, presumably Vodo, Revan, Kavar, Malak
Of the PT era: Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Anoon, Cin, Anakin off the top of my head.

This is more of a curiousity post. You wouldn't call Kreia, Sion, Nihilus, or the Exile saber masters?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. It serving Naga was just a guess from the top of my head. I'm at an off-block at school, so I didn't really put too much thought into it. It's even more curious then that the ship may have felt a Sith lesser than Naga more powerful than he had met in Alema's time.
The ship has met 2 Sith in Alema's time....ok, three if Alema's counted.

And again: the ship's age is unknown. For all you know, it belonged to Tulak and Ragnos.

Was Jacen even ON the ship? It's been a while since I read it, but I recall him just handing it off to Lumiya

Jacen and Luke battled rather savagely there. . Granted, Jacen himself admitted he could die, but Jacen's displayed powerful that rivals most, if any top tier

If it's 'beyond Alema's imagination', which is subject majorly to hyperbole by a device created by the Sith, then it's using Alema's imagination as the measuring stick

All it does is further what everyone acknowledges: The best of the Ancient Sith Empire is way up there, but doesn't stack up to Palpatine or Luke.

tulakhordpwns

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I think that his form utilizing brutal swings and attacks didn't help him much against Dooku when he was fighting the Sith Lord before utilizing his darker emotions. The key to victory obviously lies in Anakin's force potential and not in his bladework. Which is pretty much contradicting to the point that DS tries to make here.
When was Anakin using offensive force powers? Anakin beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel. He kept driving Dooku back until he finally finished him off.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because he uses a fighting style that Bane is completely unfamiliar with and therefore not able to anticipate is. That is exactly the same what would happen to Anakin when engaging Kun in a lightsaber duel.
True, but it does not mean anyone with a doublebladed lightsaber could beat anyone who has not seen that style before.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I just said it seems so because he kept running around with two lightsabers on his belt which is something that a normal Jedi wouldn't do.

Why couldn't he have an extra saber?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where ? Aside of that: The same Ood Bnar that says to Kun that combat is not his skill ? Thon also talks about lightsaber combat with Nomi yet he still ships her to Vodo for the actual instruction.
So you are saying Ood said combat was not his skill, yet he decides to train his padawans in lightsaber dueling instead of sending them to Vodo. Doesn't really imply that Vodo is so great.

Originally posted by Borbarad
A) As it seems all people in the series have been to Ossus as nobody is shown wondering himself when visiting the place with the exception of Nomi Sunrider. So I guess they all received some training there.

B) At least the people not shown to have other masters and are trained "off planet" would most likely be trained by Vodo. Notice that Ossus was the main training facility of the Jedi Order before it's destruction.

C) Going by A+B there must be a fair share of people around that received lightsaber training from Vodo, even in Revan's time if they were old enough. Atris and Vrook would be definite possibilities.
Maybe he did train some people.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku's ability to kick people has something to do with his hands ? And notice how Dooku parries blows. I doubt that he needs much strength for that. He's a fencer...
The point is, when amplifyed with the force, Dooku is very strong.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Huh ?
The point about altering the intensity, Lightsnake, is that Kun can turn his lightsaber blade into an intangible lightbeam. This allows him to utilize the weapon without limitations of a regular double-bladed lightsaber and I guess it would cause some confusion confronting an enemy that can switch the intensity of his weapon like that considering one would expect to hit the opponents blade with your his own instead of "cutting" right through it.
*Anakin swings his saber at Kun. At the last moment Kun changes his blade into a lightbeam. Kun, now unable to block Anakin's saber, is stabbed in the heart.*

Originally posted by Borbarad
From the fact that Vodo immediatly states that Kun is his greatest student ever once Kun defeated him in combat. I meant that he was never defeated by one of his former students, obviously.
And no. This was a reference to their second confrontation where Kun toyed with Vodo and tooled him.
Someone else could have beaten him. Unless Vodo is so unknowledgeable at lightsaber combat that he would not be able to tell a lightsaber prodigy from someone who is less skilled.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Does that matter ? Kreia pretty much thinks that any ancient Sith Master would run through every being in the KotoR time rather easily. The Ancients considered Kun to be their ultimate successor. I doubt that somebody from the KotoR era can beat Kun in a lightsaber duel.
Kreia can think that if she wants. Does not make it canon.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Fending of a mindless berserker ? Thrusting your interpretation that is what Obi-Wan did with Anakin at the end of RotS. The point is that in all instances we see the Dark Side making people stronger in actual confrontation, Sylvar was nothing to scoff at before - yet Ulic, which doesn't have any force connection, is still able to keep up with her in melee combat ? How many people have you seen in the SW universe that are capable of holding their own against a Jedi in straight forward melee combat without utilizing some dirty tricks (Jango Fett at Galidraan) or utilizing the enviroment in some spectacular ways ?
This does show that Ulic is very technically skilled.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you really want to assume that all rather gifted lightsaber combatants popped up in just the PT era and only there ? Or is it more logical to assume that every era had at least some duellist that would be on the same level (in general terms) than those PT people ? The point is that the people of the PT era have more sources that actually make them lightsaber prodigies but I doubt that the average skill increased so much over time (especially when their was no need for actual lightsaber to lightsaber combat), that all "uber duellists" are born in the PT era - even if that is the "golden age of the Jedi".
Yoda was described as the greatest foe of darkness ever and Mace is said to be on par with him. That is 2 that are without a doubt better than any lightsiders coming from earlier eras. And since Yoda was teaching for a long time it is probable that his skills at lightsaber combat were taughtto many of the PT and earlier jedi.

It seems that Alema probably does not think that the sith was more than just a usual sith or dark jedi. I doubt she was thinking of someone like Jacen or Luke.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
I keep arguing because that duels are exception to the rules where the prior advantage in terms of force mastery was negated. Anakin vs Dooku receives a power boost by allowing himself to utilize his dark emotions (similar to Luke in RotJ) that makes him more powerful for a short amount of time in which he's capable of surprising Dooku with a highly unorthodox movement. His average skill-level in terms of force control and bladework is still below that of Dooku even when he enters "the zone".
That's just the point Nai, you finally got it. A superior force user is in no way guaranteed to win a saber fight..

Yes, he did benefit from all of this, even THOUGH Sidious was the superior force user.

I am arguing the exceptions because it proves being a superior force user doesn't guarantee you a win in a saber duel. That's all.

We also don't go by the distorted logic of "A more powerful force user will always win a saber duel". Reread what Kas'm wrote.

No, this is your ASSUMPTION. Please show me where it states that both of them were EQUALS even WITH Mace's Vaapad abilities. Please, go ahead.

I never said he was better trained. Where are you reading this? I am simply refuting your points that Exar Kun being the superior force user and beating Vodo doesn't make him in any way, shape, or form better than Anakin.

This is just ridiculous on your part. How many times do you have to ignore the fact that everything Anakin threw at Obiwan, Obiwan already knew because Obiwan TRAINED him. Your A>B or whatever riidiculous assertion you're making is plain nonsense.

And as I recall, some of you used to believe Ancient Sith could chuck stars around. What's your point? We progress intellectually so what we 'thought' a month ago, might not be what we think today, in light of either new evidence or a more logical line of thought.

1. Please quantify "Experienced", since you like to throw that word around.
2. Trained all the Jedi on Ossus? Is this star wars according to Nai now?

No, it does not make him more skilled than any other jedi master, because you have no proof of him training EVERYONE on Ossus, and everyone sending students to HIM. Furthermore, Ulic is at least Vodo's superior, so at his best, Vodo is #3 in his era.

Actually it has nothing to do with sw related topics Nai. Your ignorance is obvious here. Me asking lightsnake for sources means I remember reading about Anakin's physical abilities but not remembering where I read them, and since LS has more SW material than anyone here, I could legitimately ask him for the source. But thanks for your ignorant opinion.

Yet again, judging by your distorted logic and ridiculous assertions (not to mention mentally retarded insults and trolling), I doubt you'd recognize logical reasoning if it came up behind you and offered you sex.

Ah, so we're talking about force aided physical abilities, not natural physical abilities. It's about time Nai, thanks.

Yet again, considering the fact that your reality and logic are both distorted, I don't think you are capable of arguing this logically either. Does the term "objective" even register in your armor plated head?

Wtf are you babbling about?

You might want to jump back into reality, not reality according to Nai.

You have the reading comprehension of a paraplegic 3 year old. I have NEVER stated that Anakin was physically superior to Kun. The only thing I have stated regarding this matter was that I've read about Anakin's physical abilities but I forgot where, so I'm trying to get the sources from lightsnake.
www.hookedonphonics.com... Read it, acknowledge it, embrace it, apply it.

Darth Sexy

1. Jacen was never on the ship. He said he wasn't interested in it and gave it to Lumiya.
2. We have no idea how old the ship is, but its "powerful masters" could be Sadow, or more logically, even before Sadow's time, when the ancient sith were uber powerful (anywhere up until Ragnos).
3. Jacen's and Luke's power inconsistencies make it hard to argue how powerful Jacen truly is. Logically, he wouldn't be able to wash DE Sidious' shoes, but these LOTF books make him comparable to Luke.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The ship has met 2 Sith in Alema's time....ok, three if Alema's counted.

One of them being Jacen, who is one of the more powerful Sith that we know of.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And again: the ship's age is unknown. For all you know, it belonged to Tulak and Ragnos.

This is true. It doesn't change the underlying fact that it belonged to an Ancient Sith at one time and felt them to be more powerful than the modern-day Sith.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Was Jacen even ON the ship? It's been a while since I read it, but I recall him just handing it off to Lumiya

It's been quite some time for me aswell. I believe that he held it in storage for some time and I'm pretty sure it could have sensed his power reguardless of whether or not he actually boarded it as it communicated with other people (Lumiya for instance, Alema as well) when they were not onboard.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jacen and Luke battled rather savagely there. . Granted, Jacen himself admitted he could die, but Jacen's displayed powerful that rivals most, if any top tier

I strongly disagree. Luke did not display power in that fight anywhere near what we've seen him do in other, more dire occasions. I'm not saying Luke would pwn him, but I see a large difference in power none the less.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it's 'beyond Alema's imagination', which is subject majorly to hyperbole by a device created by the Sith, then it's using Alema's imagination as the measuring stick

I understand that. However, if it did not truly believe that it's previous Masters were more powerful it would not have claimed them to be so reguardless of whether or not it exagerrated their power to some extent. It's akin to you fighting Chuck Liddel. I might say that he's a thousand times better fighter than you, which isn't true, but he is still better than you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
All it does is further what everyone acknowledges: The best of the Ancient Sith Empire is way up there, but doesn't stack up to Palpatine or Luke.

However, what very few people acknowledge is that they were above people like Jacen and other Sith.

Darth Sexy

The best of the ancient sith are below Luke and Sidious. That's all. Jacen's power is incredible but his offensive abilities don't seem all too impressive.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
One of them being Jacen, who is one of the more powerful Sith that we know of.
Again: Was he on it? If not, the poot is rendered a bit moot

It's met 2 Sith, again:
Lumiya, who by her admission is a cripple, and possibly Jacen-possibly....assuming he's not shielding himself

I'll read through it again....it's ambiguous there, then

Jacen himself even thinks that Luke was gonna finish him before Ben intervened....and Jacen's pretty damn good regardless. You have to be to even fight Luke when he's serious-and when Ben's life's on the line?

Granted...but again, it's using the twisted mind of a woman unable to defeat a human non-force sensitive

I wouldn't call them above Jacen. He's certainly demonstrated more abilities. He severed Ben from the force and reconnected him with a gesture, he's spent five years doing nothing but gaining in power, and in the Dark Side, he's even more powerful.
He's something, undoubtedly.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Again: Was he on it? If not, the poot is rendered a bit moot

I'll quote myself here: "I'm pretty sure it could have sensed his power reguardless of whether or not he actually boarded it as it communicated with other people (Lumiya for instance, Alema as well) when they were not onboard."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's met 2 Sith, again:
Lumiya, who by her admission is a cripple, and possibly Jacen-possibly....assuming he's not shielding himself

We all know Lumiya was rather powerful. Vader was a cripple too, yet he was still extremely powerful.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll read through it again....it's ambiguous there, then

Thanks, I would, but I don't have time between high school, junior college, work, and a (small) social life.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jacen himself even thinks that Luke was gonna finish him before Ben intervened....and Jacen's pretty damn good regardless. You have to be to even fight Luke when he's serious-and when Ben's life's on the line?

If you're talking about something later in Inferno I haven't gotten there yet. Give me another week to finish it, I just bought it last night.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Granted...but again, it's using the twisted mind of a woman unable to defeat a human non-force sensitive

I don't believe it was using just her mind. It had encountered Jacen and Lumiya on it's own.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I wouldn't call them above Jacen. He's certainly demonstrated more abilities. He severed Ben from the force and reconnected him with a gesture, he's spent five years doing nothing but gaining in power, and in the Dark Side, he's even more powerful.
He's something, undoubtedly.

I agree that his powerful, but the Ancient Sith have the greatest collection of knowledge of any group of Force users ever. He spent five years gaining nothing but power, but he spent that time studying other comparitive weaklings. Exar gained more power than Jacen in only a few months of studying the Ancient Sith. Bane had a tremendous surge in power when he gained third-hand information from the Ancients. I'd say a Sith like Ragnos would be capable of taking Jacen.

Darth Sexy

Glentract:

1. Lumiya is NOT rather powerful. She was considered only a tiny fly on the wall compared to the power of Vader and Sidious.

2. I'd have to say that by Inferno, Jacen is already more powerful than Kun in the force. His 5 year sojourn amplified his powers exponentially. Now granted, it's more of the authors inconsistencies that somehow make him close to Luke (ridiculous), but he's at the point where DE Sidious is the only one besides Luke who is obviously superior to him.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'll quote myself here: "I'm pretty sure it could have sensed his power reguardless of whether or not he actually boarded it as it communicated with other people (Lumiya for instance, Alema as well) when they were not onboard."
What you're pretty sure of or not isn't proof, Glentract. Lumiya and Alema were both definitely aboard it at points when it spoke to them.
The reverse might very well be untrue for Jacen

And Lumiya herself admits her deficiencies

NP

Gotcha

The extent is, as I said before, totally unknown-unless Jacen was on it, we can't make a decision. 'in proximity' isn't good enough with the evidence

Moreso than the first Jedi of Dromund Kaas? The Kashi Mer? The Jedi Golden Age of Ossus?
Really, cut the propaganda

Yeah...I really believe any of them can go head to head with Luke, sever someone from the Force without so much as a gesture, travel back in time...
You got how strong they were in comparison from....what now? Absolutely nothing but your own opinion?

Lightsnake

I looked up in Exile, btw, Jacen doesn't board the sphere...he has no physical contact with it.

Darth Sexy

Duh. Jacen says something like "quaint, but I have no use for it".

Gideon

I'll say this for Jacen. The bastard can take a beating like none other.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's just the point Nai, you finally got it. A superior force user is in no way guaranteed to win a saber fight..

Which I never stated in the first place. I said Kun (specifically) would win against Anakin (specifically) because Anakin has no advantage on Kun. Got that now ? I just listed the fact you acknowledged that Kun was head and shoulders above Anakin in terms of force mastery, to show that Kun is likely capable of enchancing his own physical abilities to a greater extend than Anakin. This was never my main argument for Kun defeating Anakin in a lightsaber fight.

You still don't get it. The examples in which the inferior force user defeats the superior are so damn rare. And yet even in this examples the defeat is preceeded by a negation of the former advantage due to superior force mastery. Anakin boost himself spontaneously through using the Dark Side enabling him to defeat Dooku, Mace has unique abilities that counter Sidious superior force mastery.

Or to make it short: You've still prestented no argument why Anakin should be able to defeat Exar Kun. I'm still waiting.

Which doesn't make sense in the first place, DS. You are arguing that Anakin is going to win a lightsaber fight because of highly unlikely circumstances. And this is already following the assumption that Kun would not deliver instant ownage on Anakin's ass with his force powers but instead rely to his lightsaber.

Notice how I, originally, said that the superior force user (assuming equal or superior saber skill) is most likely going to win. To state that Anakin would win a lightsaber fight against Kun (even only possible) while assuming at the same time, that Kun is the by far superior force user, you would have to assume that Anakin's bladework does exceed that of Exar Kun. Got it now ?

" Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and
power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift."

Here. Mace is fully submerged in Vaapad an this is the point where he and Sidious are really equal.

Yes, DS. To "refute" my points you - awful for you, I know - would actually need to counter any of my arguments with something else than "No. I don't think so." Mindless antagonizing doesn't equate "debating". From what we see, Kun is in a better shape then Anakin physically, has the greater skill with a lightsaber and - through your own acknowledgement that he does possess superior force mastery - is capable to boosting his natural abilities more than Anakin. This aside from using a style and a weapon that Anakin isn't familiar with.

So could you please tell me where Anakin has any advantage in a lightsaber duel ? Because I still don't see one.

Obi-Wan did not train Anakin in lightsaber combat. How often do you want to come back with that stupid statement. They went through many sparring sessions, yes. And that's it. By the way: One must love your one-sided statements. So you grant Obi-Wan an advantage here because he knew Anakin inside out. Yet Anakin did also know Obi-Wan inside out and was still not able to defeat him. But somehow he's miracously able to do that to a guy who's more powerful than Obi-Wan, better with a saber than Obi-Wan and who Anakin doesn't know inside out. Great point. Wonder who's posting "nonsense" here.

Speaking about intellectual development your life doesn't happen on the fast lane but in the oncoming traffic.

1. Do I have to type down anything ten times here ? His experience comes from the fact that he did fight in the Third Great Schism and the Great Droid Revolution (and survived both), aside from having dedicated his life to training Jedi in the art of lightsaber combat. This aside from the fact that this "experience" enables him to floor Exar Kun with a single attack.

2. No. This is Star Wars according to Tom Veitch. In "The Freedon Nadd Uprising" Vodo is seen training students on Ossus. In the rather short timeframe of the TOTJ series he's seen to have 6 apprentices. This fully trained in what ? A year ? A month (Nomi) ? Nomi trains under him just some weeks according to the comics. So yes. There could be virtually 1000s of "Vodo trained" Jedi around in the TOTJ era.

He trained the best duellist in his era and was, at first, able to outright floor him with a single movement. Ulic is Vodo's superior ? Your proof for that ? I didn't see Ulic flooring Exar Kun with a single movement...

a) It doesn't change the fact that you started arguing something without having any idea what you're talking about. Does it ?

b) You don't have the sources or can't get yourself the information but you have to ask lightsnake to do the job for you ? And you want to study at an university ? Ahahaha.

c) I doubt that Lightsnake has most SW material here.

But thanks for your weak justification attempt. There is a german proverb that says: "Nur getroffene Hunde jaulen."

I guess you're talking out of experience since "logical reasoning" f*cks you up everytime you try to debate here, correct ?

Dude. Aside from the fact that you would have to proof that this movement was "force aided" I don't see what else I could have meant with "force mastery does have an influence on duelling ability" in the first place. But nice it has finally arrived at your brain now. Did take a long time to get there.

Another lousy excuse for dropping your twisted thoughts on the board. Yay. One must love them.

No, DS. You went down the road of the antagonizing troll again. I gave you examples why I labelled Kun superior in physical abilities to Anakin and you, in your regular way, replied with "No, he isn't." Because ? Oh yes. "Because I think I might have read something somewhere. But I don't know what it was anymore but maybe Lightsnake can help me out here before Nai kicks my silly noob ass back to Nouvotasmania." Really, DS. If you oppose points you should have a reason to do so and not just the good hope that somebody else might have anything to say on the issue. I've always thought people learn such stuff before they're allowed to attent an University. My fault...

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which I never stated in the first place. I said Kun (specifically) would win against Anakin (specifically) because Anakin has no advantage on Kun. Got that now ? I just listed the fact you acknowledged that Kun was head and shoulders above Anakin in terms of force mastery, to show that Kun is likely capable of enchancing his own physical abilities to a greater extend than Anakin. This was never my main argument for Kun defeating Anakin in a lightsaber fight.
Because ANakin has no advantage over Kun, Kun is going to win? That's an argument Nai? I'm glad you acknowledged the obvious.

Rare Nai? Out of the myriads of lightsaber duels we've seen(sarcasm), I've given you 3. I get it Nai. Your main argument is still that Kun is superior to Anakin in the force, so he'd win in saber combat.

My argument is that Anakin was able to make short work of someone who was supposedly superior to him in all aspects.
Your argument is that Kun pwned Vodo.. ANd he has a unique saber and style. Please tell me how your argument is ANY better than mine?

I don't recall me saying that Anakin is going to win, ANYWHERE Nai. I simply stated that your argument is inconclusive (if not illogical), and it's fair to say Anakin COULD win the fight, not that he WOULD.

Spare me Nai. You damn well know we are arguing lightsaber combat, so please keep your Kun fanboyism(irrelevant misdirection) to yourself.

You have never stated anything resembling "most likely". Your argument is "kun wtfpwns anakin with the force therefore he will win a saber fight", or something to that extent. Or the fact that he put Vodo on his ass.

I watched the movies Nai. Mace wasn't submerged in anything when he was stalemating Sidious. As far as I remember, it was his Vaapad that allowed him to push Sidious back and then the shatterpoint ability which put sidious on his ass.

No Nai, I don't. It seems like you don't get it. You are saying that Kun has a very good chance to win the saber duel because his force mastery is superior to Anakin's, and Anakin would have to be head and shoulders above Kun in saber combat to be guaranteed a victory, which I agree with. However, what I am saying is, that's hardly an argument or anything conclusive that's going to give Kun a victory.

Anakin didn't have one against Dooku. What's your point? What's kun's advantage? "Omg unique saber and style!!"

Obiwan didn't train Anakin? Are you daft? What the hell was he doing for the past 12 years then? Polishing Anakin's nob? Here's the kicker Nai, and I'm sure you'll remember this from POD. Obiwan taught Anakin everything Anakin knew, but he didn't teach him everything Obiwan knew. So there is yet another flaw in your argument. Try again..

Good one for a pseudointellectual troll who can't comprehend simple concepts. If my life happens in oncoming traffic, what the hell does that say about your pudding for a brain?

And how many times do I have to spell it out for you? Experience doesn't equate to power. You can't quantify Vodo's experience at all. Got it? Probably not.

Wonderful Nai. YOu preach logic, insult intelligence, and your arguments consists of "could be". Good lord, you must be a debating extraordinaire.

I'm starting to think you get really stoned/drunk, and then decide to post here. What the hell kind of logic is that? Vodo floored Kun, and then Kun wtfpwned Vodo. Kun couldn't do a damn thing to Ulic.

Oh, you're a wonderful authority on ignorance.

This is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. I don't know how you've managed to breath throughout your entire life. I don't have the sources so I should waste my money and get them just to debate, rather than simply ask someone for the source or page number? Idiot doesn't even begin to describe you.

Considering you don't seem to have any idea what you're talking about, other than your distorted reality and fanboyism.

Yep, you're definitely the paradigm of ignorance. You start with the insults (moronic ones at that), and suddenly I'm a troll. So we've established that you have no idea what a troll is, otherwise you'd be looking at a mirror. Btw Nai, it's attend, not attent, but I guess they don't teach spelling nor grammar in wonderful Germany.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because ANakin has no advantage over Kun, Kun is going to win? That's an argument Nai? I'm glad you acknowledged the obvious.

Because Kun is the better lightsaber duellist and the superior force user he's going to win.

Yay. You should probably get your hand on some sources before you start with the sarcasm. I've seen quite a lot lightsaber duels in the EU. And my main argument is still that Kun is superior to Anakin in both: Force mastery and lightsaber combat.

Yes. And as I said: You argue that Anakin is always on his lucky day when we see that his average skill is not enough to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi who was supposely below him in all aspects. So what ?

Because Kun doesn't need to have his lucky day to use his unique weapon and style and he also doesn't need his lucky day to toy with Vodo and completely destroy him. Did Anakin toy with Dooku ? Nope.

And now he comes back again with the lame excuses. May I quote yourself once again: "Kun>Anakin with the force, this much is clear. But if they had a lightsaber battle, I highly doubt Exar Kun would have this." So if you doubt that Kun would "have it" would he engage in a lightsaber duel with Anakin...who do you think would win then because according to that above, you didn't say that Anakin would win, eh ? Ridiculous.

No. You are arguing lightsaber combat here based on a distorted premise anyways ("Kun would rather engage Anakin in a lightsaber duel instead of slapping him with his force powers." wink

. Remember ?

I wonder how you were capable of surviving to your present age (12 ?) with that outstanding bad memory. I did state nothing. I merely asked you why you think Anakin would be able to win a lightsaber fight against a being that's more capable than him in enchancing his physical abilities through the force (precognition, greater strength / speed) that knows Anakin's style inside out while using a unique weapon and a uniques style himself. You still didn't answer that. Except you consider "Anakin was able to defeat Dooku" to be an argument.

Wow. I quoted the novel in case you didn't notice it you damn idiot. And if you want to go by the movie I didn't hear the terms "Vaapad" and "Shatterpoint" there.

It can't be that hard to understand. Read your own words above. You stated that you don't think Kun would win a lightsaber fight. Period. I've always sort that one would need a reason to have a certain oppinion regarding a certain topic. Obviously that's not the case. Now you're trying to twist it.

Anakin did have an advantage against Dooku. The advantage was that he was younger and, through using the Dark Side, received a spontaneous burst of power that Dooku wasn't capable of countering with what he had in terms of lightsaber skill and force powers. Is Exar Kun now Count Dooku ? No. Can Anakin even defeat the Count in every single fight ? I don't think so. So why you always come back with that incident ?

What nonsense. Did Kenobi ever learn Djem So ? No ? What the hell ? So how could he have taught Anakin his lightsaber style ? He didn't ? But I thought he taught Anakin everything. The RotS novel elaborates quite much on the topic saying that both went up against each other in thousands of hours of practice fight. Obviously Anakin did know Kenobi inside and out vice versa when it came to lightsaber fights. And while Kenobi might have some things up his sleeve he didn't tell Anakin one could assume that the same is true for Anakin. So there is no flaw in my argument but just in your line of thought.

Oh my god, kid. You really want to keep up those lame attempts to flame me ? Pathetic. Do it right or stop it.

Dude. He floored Exar Kun with a single movement. Really. I don't think I have to quantify Vodo's power if he's shown to floor a lightsaber prodigy with a single move by finding the balance point of his opponent and exploit it. That alone is a testament for Vodo's combat skill.

A comment coming from somebody who can't seperate an argument from an explanation. Yay. Notice how there are 6 people Vodo trained in roughly a year. Well...shall we assume that he didn't train equal amounts of people before that just because that fits your oppinion better ? Nope. I don't think so. And I hope you can do the required math yourself.

You notice that you're still arguing based on an interrupted fight happening with totally different circumstances ? Did I miss the point where Kun used two lightsaber against Ulic ? Did I miss the point where Ulic was fighting with a stick ? The point is that Vodo was capable to floor Kun while Ulic wasn't.

Must come from the fact that I studied your posts so well.

I knew you don't read your own post. But nice that you've proven me right there.

Wow. You really must be the first being in history who managed to be accepted at an University without knowing what a Public Library is. That's aside of using the internet and debating in a forum where certain sites that contain a lot of SWsources are linked rather often.

But it's nice that "idiot" doesn't even begin to descripe me. How can somebody descripe a being that doesn't know jack shit about a certain thematic field but tries to debate on exactly that field of knowledge ? Excuse me, DS. Would you also enter a debate about Greek Philosophers without knowing a single piece of stuff coming from them and then ask another participant of that debate for information regarding the topic because of being too lazy to get them yourself ? Yes. Then "idiot" doesn't begin to descripe you, Darth Shithead. But if the answer to the question is "no", I wonder why you try it here.

Not to mention how nice it is that LS doesn't even bother to come up with some stuff here. Smart decission, if you ask me. Gives entirely new meaning to the sentence "Don't feed the troll", eh ?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You can't possibly still be typing Nai. Your bullshit should have ended pages ago. Please cease with your E-monologue.

par·a·digm /ˈpærəˌdaɪm, -dɪm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. Grammar.
2. an example serving as a model; pattern.
Well Nai, perhaps I should have used "epitome", seeing as how you don't understand simple vocabulary/concepts/common sense/anything.

Oh good one. "I know you are but what am I". Seeing as how you just made an unsupported assumption, and how you started with the name calling, I guess reality>Nai's delusions. Try again..

Congratulations Nai.. I just had a sandwich. You know the moral of the story? Nobody cares.

Wait a second, didn't you attempt to attack my ALLEGED level of education? Good lord Nai it's quite obvious you either don't read what you type, or are ignorant beyond belief. I know enough languages to debate with you but I'm afraid you don't possess the intelligence nor the attention span to debate anything logically.

Nice way to ignore the entire topic, DS and fling yourself at some statements. Give me a call when you've graduated from the kindergarten. Oh nope. Don't give me a call.

Darth Sexy

It's kindergarten Nai, not THE kindergarten.

Janus Marius

To be fair, DS, you have deliberately ignored his points and countered it without valid sources, valid logic structure, and civil discourse.

In short, you failed any point you were trying to make, whether or not it was a valid one, simply by virtue of your pointless deflections and personal attacks. Your posts had absolutely no substance, you simply said "Nuh uh" to everything he supported and then insulted him when it became apparent that you couldn't chase him off with persistant adherence to complete close-mindedness.

So yeah, if you intend not to be a troll in this case, you need to work harder. I've read the entire argument between you two and you have YET to make a valid point.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's kindergarten Nai, not THE kindergarten.

No. It's Kindergarten, because it's a German word, DS.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because Kun is the better lightsaber duellist and the superior force user he's going to win.
But you have NOT established that Kun is the better lightsaber duelist Nai, Simply saying he is doesn't make it so.

No, that's your main opinion. An argument would consist of proof.

Yet the Obiwan vs. Anakin fight seems obvious to everybody except for you, which is why nobody uses it to try to diminish Anakin's saber abilities.

Is Vodo on Dooku's level? Common sense and logical deduction says no. Since when does character X have to perform the same feat as character Y?

Lets try this again boo. I am saying that Anakin COULD win this saber battle, as could Kun, as in it could go either way. This is a FACT because your argument is either "Kun is superior with the force" or "Kun tooled Vodo". That's not an argument Nai.

No Nai, I am arguing lightsaber combat period. Notice how the force was never an issue here? Please stop playing stupid, it's getting old.

Wow.. That's all I can say about your intellectual capacity Nai.

Congratulations dumbshit. Then you somehow made the assertion that even with VAAPAD, Mace was just Sidious' equal.

Nope, I said Anakin COULD win this, not that Kun COULDN'T. Learn to read.

You don't think so? Wow Nai it MUST be true then. Let us use your logic then. Kun was younger than Vodo and he had the element of surprise on him with the Jar'Kai style. Oh wait, but you're going to argue that Kun is superior to Vodo. Double standards are a *****.

There is no flaw in my line of thought. The two knew each other inside and out. Anakin couldn't break his defenses because Obiwan KNEW what he was going to do. Obiwan couldn't get on the offensive because Anakin KNEW what he was going to do. Yet Anakin kept pushing Obiwan back each time. It was his arrogance that allowed Obiwan to get the victory.

You're boring me nancy.

Wow.. HE floored him.. He found his weak spot and used it to his advantage because he was EXPERIENCED, and while Kun was a saber prodigy, he was NOT experienced. Nice job proving nothing.

Separate. But we'll just blame that on "3AM". But please lets assume Vodo trained THOUSANDS.. Dumbass.

Yet Ulic was capable of stalemating Kun while Vodo wasn't. The same Kun who became more powerful as a sith...Vodo floored him because he was EXPERIENCED while Kun was NOT. Kun fixed that VERY soon.

Who taught you how to be witty? In case you are lost here, the question is rhetorical because you have no idea how to be witty..

OMG Darth Shithead. I guess I'm the one in "kindergarten"!!! No, I wouldn't debate Greek Philosophy because I personally don't care too much about it and I could be doing other useful things with my time, like teaching you grammar and the art of common sense. And no Nai, everyone here has the right to get the sources from someone else without spending money. You're just too stupid to realize this.

Thx for your opinion, now stfu N00b..

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. It's Kindergarten, because it's a German word, DS.

Yes, Kindergarten/kindergarten, NOT THE Kindergarten.....

Janus Marius

DS:

Nai's argument for Kun:

* Is a master swordsman who outduelled a prestigious battlemaster as well as saber prodigy and war hero Ulic.
* Is shown utilizing Form V-type movements.
* Is known to have used two sabers well enough to overcome and humiliate his prestigious master.
* Later toyed with his master and killed him.
* The only known user of his particular lightsaber, which required its own unique style thanks to its handle.

Your argument for Anakin:

* He beat Dooku "in teh z0n3!"

Let's be practical here. Nai hasn't conclusively proved Kun > Anakin, but you sure as hell haven't proved anything for your side besides arguing a fight which simply doesn't apply here.

Actually, an argument consists of a valid, sound logical premise followed by equally valid, sound conclusions based on real values (Read: logical knowns or sources). You haven't even begun to do this, so you don't have jack shit to call Nai out on. He's done a rather admirable job of defending his side. Considering that Nai (as well as a few other members of the board) is clearly better schooled in reasoning than yourself and capable of forming precise and working arguments, his stance wins out because you have no substance.

Here you go again; asserting without proof.

Prove up or shut up, DS. This pretender to the throne of logic crap is absolutely obnoxious.

You haven't even begun to use logic here, so why lecture on it, DS?

"Common sense" is not a valid, sound premise. Stop using it. "Apparent to everyone" or "clearly obvious" are more of the same. You should never ever ever assume that something is "plainly evident" unless it's an axiom. If you even know what axioms are, I'd be surprised, because your lack of education on how a logical argument works baffles me. You must speed-read the Wiki articles.

You are also missing the point by strawmanning; Vodo and Dooku are both respected warriors and masters of their own respective times. In order to compare them, we have to take what we known about each and put it in relative context. Appeal to "common sense" doesn't solve arguments, DS; it belittles them.

You've religiously asserted (Note: asserted, never given proof) that Anakin could "take this" in a saber fight, or that it's too close to tell. Your evidence? "Teh Annykin beets teh Duuku!!111". Let's be real here- we've gone over the fight many times and you won't budge. Let's look at Anakin's other "glory fights":

1. He gets tossed around by Ventress until he uses his "zOMG Dark seid god mod" and barely wins.

2. Obi-Wan defeats him "in teh z0n3".

Well, so far, so bad... Your turn, DS.

Actually, you did assert that Kun would be some big idiot and just run up to Anakin who would use his Gameshark "Dark seid hax" mode and just run him through. You also asserted that Exar Kun, who has Sith artifacts to boost his already considerable power, is going to take no use of them what so ever and just get tooled like some kind of idiot.

But then you say 'Kun > Anakin in the Force. Anakin wins because he's better with a saber because he beat Dooku and Dooku > Vodo because "Common Sense" says so and he can use Dark Seid Hax and just push Exar Kun around like a ragdoll.'

I pretty much summed up everything you've ever said on this thread just there.

Which is clearly what Stover wanted us to think since he wrote the line, and he clearly fleshed out Vaapad and most of Mace's EU personality. With Vaapad alone, Mace could contend with Sidious' speed element. With Shatterpoint, he overcomes him. Mace > Sidious. There, see it now?

Had the element of surprise? Do you even know what you're talking about? Obviously, you don't. You should shut up before you start to look even more stupid, DS.

Claiming that they each had sufficient knowledge of each other to implement and thus equal each other out seems a bit silly. Several times they surprise each other, and Anakin clearly is so busy being angry that he can't think straight enough to outthink Kenobi. And if there's anything we know about Kenobi it's that he's a cagey opponent who outthinks better duellists all the time, unless they're played by Chris Lee.

The point remains that even with his enhanced knowledge and raging emo hormones, he still couldn't overcome someone who is barely a sabergod in his own era. Pitting the same kid against a bonafide Sith Lord who toyed with his own master and killed many more without any apparent effort is simply blind bias.

Actually, Nai noted as I did earlier that Vodo is clearly shown to be experienced. Experienced in what? Combat. Ergo he is not some blathering idiot with a stick like you so want him to be.

Kun and Ulic clash and neither can claim the upper hand, but then the fight is simply ended by Ragnos and the ancients. This gives us an indication of their relation to each other at this point, but Kun goes on to develop his own weapon and train with it in a time frame noted as being sufficient for the Massassi to build him "hundreds" of temples. He then uses this completely new foreign weapon and style and destroys Vodo, his master, with absolutely no effort. So while Ulic may seem to be more impressive than Vodo, the fight itself was brief and Vodo faced a more experienced Sith lord who had perfected his own weapon at this point.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:

Nai's argument for Kun:

* Is a master swordsman who outduelled a prestigious battlemaster as well as saber prodigy and war hero Ulic.
* Is shown utilizing Form V-type movements.
* Is known to have used two sabers well enough to overcome and humiliate his prestigious master.
* Later toyed with his master and killed him.
* The only known user of his particular lightsaber, which required its own unique style thanks to its handle.
1. Please show me where it is stated that Vodo is a battlemaster. Please show me where he "outduelled" Ulic, because I remember a draw.
2. Shown utilizing form V type movements ok so?
3. Toyed with his master who may or may not have been good.
How does any of this make him 'ejeet'?

Your argument for Anakin:

* He beat Dooku "in teh z0n3!"
Did you also conveniently forget that he was a saber prodigy? He also defeated Asajj. His defeat of Dooku is considered very impressive, unless we're going to go by the assumption that Vodo is anywhere in Dooku's league.

Let's be practical here. Nai hasn't conclusively proved Kun > Anakin, but you sure as hell haven't proved anything for your side besides arguing a fight which simply doesn't apply here.
The simple fact that Anakin DID end up defeating Dooku means he's no slouch with a saber. The ONLY advantage Kun would have in a saber duel is a unique blade and style. But then again, was Anakin familiar with Jar'kai, or Dooku's form 2?

Stating "Kun beat Vodo so he wins" or "Kun is the superior force user so he wins", doesn't seem like an argument.

I learn as I go along, what can I say. However I HAVe understood what a logical argument ISNT. I'm guilty of this, so is Nai, because his argument is hardly "logical".

Again, saying Kun would tool Anakin because he tooled Vodo is faulty logic. We can make a thread with Dooku vs. Vodo..

1. The Obiwan fight is self explanatory Janus. It's been brought up a lot. He couldn't defeat Obiwan because Obiwan trained him.
2. Kun's argument is "HE TOOLED VODO"!! Please explain how this is ANY different than Anakin beating Dooku, with the difference being in the individual powers of Vodo and Dooku.

Weren't you the one who asserted that Kun would start shooting amulet blasts out of his ass when we've had ZERO evidence that Kun would EVER use them in a fight? I'm asserting that IF it gets to a lightsaber fight, then it could go either way. If it doesn't, Kun wins. That is all..

When did I ever say Anakin wins Janus?

Then please tell me, at WHAT point of the fight did he begin using Vaapad?

Yes, after putting Kun on his ass, the first thing Vodo expected was Kun to pick up a SECOND saber, and start attacking him.

Which would be a good point if you are saying that both eras are equal in saber dueling. That would be like saying Exar Kun>Mace because Kun is #1 in his era and Mace isn't.

Except you can't quantify experienced without trying to make him sound like a saber god.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
But you have NOT established that Kun is the better lightsaber duelist Nai, Simply saying he is doesn't make it so.

Trying to shift the burden of proof again, DS ? You claimed that Kun wouldn't win a lightsaber duel against Anakin while saying that Kun is the superior force user meaning that you have to proof that Anakin is a superior lightsaber combatant in comparison to Kun.

If you think I'm going to repeat myself once again you've thought wrong. I've come up with enough points - you've chosen to ignore them. Fine with me.

Yes. It's quite obvious to me that it was Anakin who ended up without legs and took a nice lava bath because he wasn't capable of overcoming his masters. Something Kun, on the other hand, did.

Did Anakin outduel Dooku ? Nope. You can side this point over and over again but it still won't turn Anakin into an uber lightsaber combatant.

I've quoted your words, DS. Don't try to worm yourself out of the situation. You've stated that you don't think Kun can take Anakin in a lightsaber duel and now I want your argument for it. You don't have one ? Then stop the antagonizing.

You're the one that plays stupid here. You've acknowledge already (DE Sidious) that force mastery has a rather great influence on lightsaber combat. You've also acknowledged that Kun is by far superior to Anakin when it comes to force mastery. You can "argue" lightsaber combat until you're blue in the face but unless you present me anything that leads to the suggestion that despite of that two points Anakin could win a lightsaber fight against Kun, that is not an issue. Got it ? Hope so.

That's all you can say about most topics, DS, because you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Not I. Matthew Stover in the RotS novel, which I did quote. Must be hard not being able to figure that one out after I rammed your head on it twice now.

No. You said you don't believe Kun wins. Period. Twist it until your brain comes out of your ears. Won't change the words from you that I quoted.

No. It must be true because once more the RotS novel does state it. And I don't have to argue that Kun was superior to Vodo because the NEC has that written down black on white. Double standards ? I don't see some. I just see stupid comparisons such as comparing pre-Sith Kun to DLotS Kun.

Sure. There is no line of thought in the first place.

No. What allowed Obi-Wan to get the victory was the fact that he was the superior tactician and had his mind focused on the fight. Yes. Anakin acted rather stupid - but that's more one of his character traits than a real exception.

Yeah. Kun gained experience in the matter of 30 seconds from "getting floored" to "defeat his master". That makes so much sense, DS.

Over several centuries when we see him training 6 apprentices in some weeks ? Yeah.

Yes. "Very soon" is = 30 seconds later when Kun defeated Vodo. I guess going from unexperienced prodigy to master swordsmen in that amount of time is pretty unique in the SW universe, eh ? Or maybe your plain and simply stupid.

Error 404 - The funny can not be displayed. sad

Oh. They called you Darth Shithead in kindergarten ? That certainly is interesting from a psychological point of view. Yet I don't see where is the point for this debate in that. Ah yes. You don't have friends and therefore you have to troll around. Sure. Thanks.

I wonder how somebody would be able to teach me logic without caring about Greek Philosophy. Grammar ? As if I care. Common sense ? Ah yes. Caeci caecos ducentes ?

No. You are just too stupid to get the point. You come in here going "nooo Kun isn't stronger then Anakin". I ask you, why you think so and you reply with "Oh. Dunno. Read something somewhere. But Lightsnake has the sources !". WTF ? Unless you have something to refute my points, stop arguing. That was the point. Not your right to get yourself some sources. I would appreciate that as you know jack shit about the SW Universe and still try to debate here.

Once more: Does the moon care if the wolf howls at it ? You don't have to be so aggressive, little one. I don't care about what you're thinking and you're still only holding yourself up to ridicule. Quite funny though but still pathetic.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Trying to shift the burden of proof again, DS ? You claimed that Kun wouldn't win a lightsaber duel against Anakin while saying that Kun is the superior force user meaning that you have to proof that Anakin is a superior lightsaber combatant in comparison to Kun.
Yes, I claimed that Kun wouldn't win the saber duel JUST because he is the superior force user, and I've given you EXAMPLES which DO exist, whether they are exceptions to the rule or not.

"Omg he pwned Vodo" isn't an argument.

So by your logic, Kun would defeat Mace because Kun was #1 and Mace was #2? Anakin wasn't the best in his era and Kun was, so that makes Kun superior?

"omg he got a lucky move in". So what happened when Kun put Vodo on his ass with the two blades? I guess that would also be called a lucky move if you were to use that same distorted logic. Too much double standards..

You haven't quoted my words Nai, you apparently have trouble reading. I have NEVER said Kun cannot take Anakin. If I did, please show me, or stop accusing me of bullshit. I have stated that Anakin COULD take Kun and vice versa, because they were both saber prodigies who have both shown their abilities. I can also say that Anakin fought the better duelists..

You do realize that DE Sidious' force mastery allowed him to move faster than the eye could see and kill off storm troopers while he was fighting Luke, not that it MADE him a saber god? Sidious was noted to have known all of the saber styles (excluding Vaapad), so that WOULD make him a saber prodigy don't you think? And you can argue and ***** that the superior force user would always win the saber fight, but I've already proven you wrong by examples, and Kas'im's own words.

That could easily be said for you.

PLease post this Nai, since you obviously have a difficult time reading. Go ahead and "quote" my words. If you can't find these elusive words (you shouldn't be able to because they don't exist), then shut the hell up about it> I never stated that Kun CANT win..

So now you're admitting that the better tactician could defeat the more superior saber user?

Or the fact that he overwhelmed Vodo with the Jar'Kai style. It's obvious the last thing Vodo expected was for Kun to get right back up, get a second blade, and attack him. Good one Nai.

Unsupported Assumption yet again.

If you are going to attempt to ridicule somebody's intelligence, at least don't sound like a complete moron with your pathetic grammar and spelling abilities. I've already explained WHY Kun floored Vodo..

Wow, you already sounded stupid with your distorted logic. You sound like a complete imbecile with your unintelligent insults. I can just as easily say that you are a social outcast that has TOO much time on his hands, and you come on these forums to troll and to attempt to act better than others (and fail). At your age I woud expect more from you. But after reading your nonsense, it wouldn't be a stretch to call you a social reject.

Why would I have to teach you about logic? More pseudointellectual bullshit? Great one Nai. "Oh you don't know (this this and that), so I'm smarter than you". There's just certain things I don't care about Nai. I'm sure there are certain things you don't care about either. It's called different personalities.

I didn't know were still debating physical superiority Nai. BUt can you factually tell me that it was Kun's physical strength that lifted the Chancellor, and not the amulet? You're still debating that Kun would win a saber fight because he's the superior force user, in which I've refuted successfully. "Omg but its the exception not the rule". That's nice Nai, but it still proves the fact that the superior force user is in no way guaranteed a lightsaber victory. "Omg he beat Vodo". THat's also nice Nai, if you consider Vodo a powerhouse. And you've been trying desperately to prove that he is, without any success. Training some Jedi and making your stick resistant to lightsaber blows doesn't make you a saber god.

So I tell you your opinion is meaningless and you spout the same back to me? Gosh Nai, I could hardly tell that you're older than me from reading this crap.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, I claimed that Kun wouldn't win the saber duel JUST because he is the superior force user, and I've given you EXAMPLES which DO exist, whether they are exceptions to the rule or not.

Once more, DS. Before I even entered a debate you've already said that you can't see Kun winning a lightsaber fight. So stop with the lies because you are just inable to make a case for Anakin. And your examples are still meaningless. Why don't you get that into your head.

I see you have chosen to play the ignorant further. Ok. Have fun with it.

I wonder what post you were reading. It certainly wasn't the one you were replying to. But ok. I'll repeat it again. Kun is superior because he, unlike Anakin, was able to overcome the guy that "taught him all he could". He designed his own blade and style, remained undefeated as a Sith Lord in personal confrontation, toyed with a 600 year old Jedi Master who was cited as "experienced duellist" by the omniscient narrator and has far superior force abilities in comparison to Anakin which would allow him to enchant his raw physical abilities to a greater extend than Anakin could.

Again. Nice strawman. What post are you reading ? The point is that Anakin realized that he's the only being able to safe the lives of Obi-Wan and Sidious in this situation. The novel elaborates on that. Because of that realization he then utilized the Dark Side and did not only surprise Dooku with the new found power but was also fighting with special determination as he thought he had to safe two of the three people that meant the most to him. We saw that Anakin if he "just" enters "teh z0ne" isn't on the same level he was on when he defeated Dooku. His average level of skill, even boosted by the Dark Side, was not enough to overcome Kenobi. So I might ask once more: Why do you think he could be able to defeat Kun ?

Are you retarded, DS ?
CLICK ME !!!
"I don't see how on earth Kun would win this"

Your first post on this thread here and you are outright stating that you don't see how on earth Kun would win this. This doesn't indicate that "Anakin might possible be able to take Kun" but your stating that Anakin would practically defeat Kun in a lightsaber duel every time because you can't see Kun winning. WTF ? And no you can shut up and stop trying to worm yourself out of that sitation. You outright stated Anakin > Kun in a lightsaber duel and now proof up or shut up.

You do realize that Kun, when opposed by two guy aiming guns at him, draws his lightsaber, ignites it, cuts one of them down, crosses several metres of distance and cuts the second down before one of both beings, who had already aimed there weapons at him, was capable of pulling the trigger ? You want to talk about speed ? And this is Kun far away from the top of his power when he didn't even start using the Dark Side.
And I wonder how "know all styles" does make somebody a saber god. Cin Drallig did know all styles except form VII and didn't look too good when Anakin did invade the temple, did he ?
And once more: Nice strawman. I never said that the superior force user is always going to win. I said that Kun is going to win against Anakin because, aside from various other points, his force mastery is superior to Anakin allowing him to enchant his physical abilities further than Anakin could. Got it into your head now ?

Sure.

See above and cry yourself to sleep, DS. You said you see now possibility how Kun could win a lightsaber fight against Anakin. Period. Don't even try to deny it, DS.

I wonder how I've admitted that here because I don't see where Anakin was superior to Obi-Wan when it came to bladework. And again nice strawman since I don't recall where I've ever stated that a superior tactician can't win a lightsaber fight. On the other handside: I wonder where this favors your argument. You don't think that Anakin is a superior tactician in comparison to Exar Kun, do you ?

Haha. Glossing over points seems to be a rather fulfilling hobby, right DS ? The point is not that Kun jumped up and got a second blade. The point is that Vodo was not capable of defending himself against Kun's attack and after this little fight instantly calls Kun the most formidable student he ever had. And notice: This is once more Kun far before his top shape in which he toyed and destroyed Vodo without any effort.

Where is the assumption here, DS ? We saw him training 6 apprentices in the comics. The fact that you did never read them doesn't change that. In the same comics we also have the omniscient narrator stating that Nomi just trained "some weeks" under Vodo.

Do you really think that it would be logically sound to assume that Vodo who, according to his own words, did "dedicate his life to training new Jedi" never had any apprentices before or that they training miracously took far more time that that of Crado, Sylvar, Kun, Nomi, Dace, Qrrl and Shaoneb ? That certainly does sound stupid meaning it perfectly fits into your personal views.

Why should I attempt such a thing, DS ? You're doing the job pretty damn well yourself in case you still didn't notice it. And you've explained nothing, DS. You've assumed that Vodo is somehow not capable to see a second lightsaber flying up to Kun, being ignited and then somehow (while we see that he's defending himself) doesn't even react while Kun breaks his stick. And then Vodo of course goes on to call Kun his most formidable student because he was thinking something like: "Uh. The guy managed to break my stick with a surprise attack. He must be uber." instead of "Damn find duelling skills. Most certainly the best I've ever trained." Yup, DS. Sounds completely right.

Yes. And I could point out the fact that you are the guy having more than 5000 post here produced in about a year while I produced 2000 in more than two years. This would, however, indicate that you're the social outcast here that has far more time on his hand then myself. Which is, on the other hand, no surprise, as I study, have a job and a girlfriend. That are three things that don't apply to you I suppose.

So next time you want to come up with insults better double-check that the things you want to say are applying to yourself far better than to the guy you wanted to insult in the first place, smartass. But at least we now all know how it feels to be you as you've given us such a nice insight to your personal life. Now I can understand why your seeking your destiny on a online board - because you have none outside the internet. What a pitty, DS.

Borbarad

Another great statement from Mr Darth Sexy. You don't care about being an uneducated troll, DS ? That certainly is a nice revelation. There is this proverb saying "a fault confessed is half redressed", correct ? Some people would consider a lack of education to be a fault but as you don't seem to be among them, one could be tempted to call you ignorant.

Oh my, DS. Is it so hard to understand ? You refuted something that I didn't state in the first place. Your talking in general where I'm talking about a specific fight: Kun VS Anakin. It doesn't matter if Kun did it with physical strength (and he pushed Sylvar on her knees with that) or with force aided strength. And I don't have to proof that it "wasn't the amulet". You would have to proof that he used the amulet to archieve this feat and even then it would be pretty impressive to have that guy lifted up with one arm hanging on your damn fingers that you have just hammered through his skull.

Which I never stated, DS. Nice strawman. I was specifically talking about Kun VS Anakin and not about X vs Y in general just to state that x always wins because he's the superior force user. Hence your "proof" is just what it is: Irrelevant talk.

OMG, DS. He didn't train "some" Jedi but dedicated his life to training Jedi (several centuries). And you, I'm afraid, are no greater authority here than the omniscient narrator who lists Vodo as very experienced duellist, nor are you a greater authority than the comics that show how he's able to floor outstandingly gifted lightsaber combatants like Kun with a single movements. The same Kun that tooled his fellow apprentices before and the same Kun that defeats Vodo only seconds after this incident.

So you consider your own consideration stupid and immature in the first place ? Nice to know that, DS. Still doesn't change the fact that you've still not contributed anything to this debate and, despite of that, are still posting. *shrugs*