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This is Sidious as of RotS, and Depa and Kar in their Shatterpoint incarnations. An all out fight in a random jungle; who wins?

A jungle-based Kar Vastor is on par with Yoda, correct? And Depa is -- by Mace's own words -- on par with himself in bladework. Sidious bites ze big one.

Kar isn't on par with Yoda, he is almost as strong. As for Depa being ahead of Mace, she isn't, Mace was being humble, just like when he says Kenobi is better with a blade than he is (in the ROTS script).


However (what I was going to originally say):

Kar alone would give Sidious a good fight, not win, but it would be close. Add in Depa and Sidious is going down for sure.

Sidious may lose, but it won't be an easy fight.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kar isn't on par with Yoda, he is almost as strong.No, he was described as having raw power on the level of Yoda.

Mace says that Depa's bladework had surpassed his own Vaapad. That statement, while somewhat open to interpretation, means that Depa's ability as a duelist at least compares to Mace's.

@Escape: Only the jungles of Haruun Kal empower Kar beyond normal levels, much like Korriban or Malachor do for Darth Sion. But even without the jungle's power flowing through him, he was described as being immensely powerful.

Okay. But like I said, Sidious will die anyway, since Depa compares to Mace and so does Vastar. Which makes me wonder why this thread was made since one side has no hope for success...

I believe that Mace said that Kar's raw power rivaled that of Yoda. His level of finesse and technique, as well as knowledge and wisdom don't really compare to what Yoda has though. I don't think he'd be much against Sidious on his own.

Depa does have Vapaad though. However, I'm not convinced that it will have the same effect for her that it had for Mace. It did what it did for Mace because he had no fear of the Darkside and was able to conquer it. Depa not able to do so. She was afraid of the Darkside and was conquered by it. I also believe that Mace was being very generous in his description of Depa, which is understandable as she was his apprentice. I read Shatterpoint years ago, but I believe that Mace beat her even after she had cheapshotted him and after a severe beating at Kar's hands, and many days in the jungle. I don't think she'd stand much chance against Mace on even ground.

Basically, I think it'd be close. If Sidious loses at all he's taking someone with him.

Er... now I'm confused. I'm just gonna leave this to the professionals.

Originally posted by Gideon
Er... now I'm confused. I'm just gonna leave this to the professionals.

How can I explain it? May I remind you that you are a professional.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
How can I explain it? May I remind you that you are a professional.

I'm confused about the (seemingly) contradictory assessment of Kar Vastor and Depa's powers. For example, why would Mace make the statement that Depa's bladework is superior to his own? Was he being modest, or is there merit to it? And what about Mace's assessment that Vastor was more powerful than he was? I seem to recall a fleeting statement that this book concerns Mace's secret insecurities. I've misplaced my own copy of the book.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm confused about the (seemingly) contradictory assessment of Kar Vastor and Depa's powers. For example, why would Mace make the statement that Depa's bladework is superior to his own? Was he being modest, or is there merit to it? And what about Mace's assessment that Vastor was more powerful than he was? I seem to recall a fleeting statement that this book concerns Mace's secret insecurities. I've misplaced my own copy of the book.

I strongly believe that Mace was simply being modest in his assessment of Depa's power. It's actually quite obvious. He had mastered Vapaad, she had not. He defeated her while he was near death anyway. Vastor may have had more raw power, but he lacked the knowledge, wisdom, finesse, technique, experince, ect. that Mace had.

Exactly. Raw power. Meaning if he'd reached his FP he'd be even with Yoda.


As much as ROTS kenobi's compares to Mace's, yes, so yeah, she's strong, but not as strong as Mace, or Kar.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Exactly. Raw power. Meaning if he'd reached his FP he'd be even with Yoda.

And he was MUCH farther from his full potential than Yoda.

Originally posted by darthsith19
As much as ROTS kenobi's compares to Mace's, yes, so yeah, she's strong, but not as strong as Mace, or Kar.

Yep.

Originally posted by Gideon
Okay. But like I said, Sidious will die anyway, since Depa compares to Mace and so does Vastar. Which makes me wonder why this thread was made since one side has no hope for success... I wanted what people here thought of Depa an Kar nowadays, because last I was here the two werent given their due credit. Basically, I expected to have the majority of people trying to argue in Sidious' favor. I'm glad to see that's not the case.

And in regards to Kar and Mace; in their final confrontation, the Jedi muses about how Kar is "younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful ." I believe that's the exact quote, but I'd have to check back with you on that, since I haven't so much as seen a copy of the book in year.

Two on one in the JUNGLE? Yeah, Palpatine loses here.

Either on their own would be a firmly different story

I'm halfway through rereading Shatterpoint again. It has to be one of the longest Clone Wars-era novels, for sure. Anyways, Kar Vastor's homecourt advantage is being in the jungle, where he's noted as being near-difficult to sense and has an apparent increase in speed, strength, etc. He feeds off of the darkness in the jungle.

However, outside of that environment, his lack of discipline and self-control make him dangerously unstable. He relies on instinct and has a dog-like mentality. He's also prone to his own vanity and insecurities, such as remaining respected and feared. Sidious is a surprisingly cagey opponent who has the benefit of more training and Force-refinement, not to mention Sith Lightning which is likely to fry Vastor and melt his vibroshields with enough concentrated effort.

Depa could balance out Vastor's weakness, however, with her own swordplay. Mace does love her and make out like she's a sabergod- and some of that may have some founding- but in the end he is the only living master of the lightsaber form itself; this means he is likely to be the only one who can counter Sidious' darkness and let it back out without hurting himself.

Actually, now that I think about it, Mace does mention Kar as being "not evil" in a sense as he just is, and mentions that Kar uses the darkness in the jungle without becoming a truly dark person himself. Much of Mace's views on Kar's methods seem to mirror Vaapad.

I think most of that is due to Kar being a 'mirror' to Mace, anyways.

Depa and Kar

Janus, since you're reading the book, is it ever said whether Kar is affected by any jungle? Because I was under the impression that it was only in Haruun Kal that the landscape furthered empowered him.

Mace notes that Haruun Kal is a darkness in itself, and it affects Depa and himself along with Kar. Only, Kar thrives from it and gives himself to it fully; the others resist because of their Jedi training. My guess is, it's just Haruun Kal.

Gotcha.

On another note, if a somewhat unrelated one, I think it's stated during the final confrontation that Depa somehow draws power from the deaths of the Akk guards, getting progressively stronger as each of them are killed. Just wondering if I'm right on that.

Kar becomes more powerful with their death's ( I am not sure about Depa)

I'm not quite there yet. I'm just after the part where Mace gets smacked around and is recuperating.

The brawl? That's some of the best EU content ever, methinks. Shatterpoint is a great book - too bad Stover had to f*ck up the RotS novel.

I agree. It's also one of the longest EU books I've read. I cleared the Medstar Duology in half the time it took me to sort through Shatterpoint.

I thought the RotS novel was awesome

Anyone else look forward to Stover's Shadows of Mindor?

What's it about?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I agree. It's also one of the longest EU books I've read. I cleared the Medstar Duology in half the time it took me to sort through Shatterpoint. 400-something pages, if I remember.

The battle that affected Luke so much that he resigned from the military.

A Luke book by Stover? That could be good.

I actually think that in the jungle Kar Vastor alone might be enough to beat Palpy, outside of it it may take the combined strenght of depa and kar to get the job done.

Originally posted by Faunus
Gotcha.

On another note, if a somewhat unrelated one, I think it's stated during the final confrontation that Depa somehow draws power from the deaths of the Akk guards, getting progressively stronger as each of them are killed. Just wondering if I'm right on that.

That's right -

Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them.

She was getting stronger.

I think Sidious wins this one, Mace defeated Vastor in seconds, on Haruun Kal on his worst day, Sidious is more powerful then him and i think, his Force Mastery, is to much for Depa and Vastor.

I'd just like to point out that though the sheer darkness of the Jungle powers Kar, it might have a similar effect on Sidious considering his complete atonement to the Darkside. Think of the power of normal Sidious, now think of a Sidious surrounded in a place where no light shines through, where the power of the Darkside reigns supreme, not something you'd want to be up against...Just something to think about.

Sidious certainly wins this, if he went all out with force, neither of these two could do a thing.