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see? nobody cares about michael bay's latest cinematic abortion. this forum is dying. the movie sucked. oh well, i guess this versus theme might keep it on life support for a time.

so please, either join the chorus of "i told you so" or feel free to spit your hate, venom, and blatant denial in the general direction of those of us who were correct all along.

thread closure? doesnt really matter, since if its closed it will still likely remain on page one of this forum indefinately.

In Gm: "I tollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllld you sooooooooooooooooooooooo.....!!!"

the movie didn't suck you suck ass

Originally posted by CIS
the movie didn't suck you suck ass

well, sucking ass is a two way street, pal.
give a little, take a little.



sooooooo...you offering?

"the movie didn't suck you suck ass"

Now now..... Stop projecting.

Hahaha, wow.

I put that pic up for ya in the other thread, Scythe..
Sorry it wasnt a bit clearer. :/

the thing i'm offering is my dick in your mouth

Originally posted by CIS
the thing i'm offering is my dick in your mouth

hmmm sounds like fun. ok, as long as you reciprocate.

I expected a Transformers movie, I got a Transformers movie.

Considering I wasn't expecting Generation 1, I don't consider it any more of an abortion than making Optimus Prime a gorilla.

I liked it, that's not denial. That's me saying yes, I liked the movie. Could have been better, could have been far worse, but I liked it. Now you may jump on it.

Look at you, what kind of a name is "Schecter"? Pfft. More like Recter (Rectum.).

-AC

Well I was expecting a TF movie and felt that a more appropriate title would've been: "Humans- Featuring the transformers".

But I accept that not all see it that way.

Recter? damn near killed her. wakka wakka wakka!!!


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Now you may jump on it.

you'd like like, wouldnt you? so would i.

anyway, with a critique like "could have been far worse" i wouldnt say you're in denial. so you saw some quality in it. while i disagree, i can respect your opinion. its just all these people treating it like the second coming whom i feel desperately need to face reality.





-Anal Cavity. hahahahaha





Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well I was expecting a TF movie and felt that a more appropriate title would've been: "Humans- Featuring the transformers".

But I accept that not all see it that way.

i would have called it "giant robots which transform into various vehicles which you'll have no empathy for whatsoever"

dear Schecter

eat a dick on viagra

love from oz

Originally posted by Schecter
see? nobody cares about michael bay's latest cinematic abortion. this forum is dying. the movie sucked. oh well, i guess this versus theme might keep it on life support for a time.

so please, either join the chorus of "i told you so" or feel free to spit your hate, venom, and blatant denial in the general direction of those of us who were correct all along.

thread closure? doesnt really matter, since if its closed it will still likely remain on page one of this forum indefinately.

Was that Bay's final transformation into Prostate-atron...?

Originally posted by Losty
dear Schecter

eat a dick on viagra

love from oz

Originally posted by roughrider
*generic ammo jpeg which lost all its funny about 8 years ago*

yes yes, excellent way to defend your precious movie. maybe you should use that energy to contribute to this forum...expand it beyond two pages a page and half

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I put that pic up for ya in the other thread, Scythe..
Sorry it wasnt a bit clearer. :/

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Originally posted by Schecter
yes yes, excellent way to defend your precious movie. maybe you should use that energy to contribute to this forum...expand it beyond two pages a page and half

Originally posted by Schecter
i would have called it "giant robots which transform into various vehicles which you'll have no empathy for whatsoever"

Do you genuinely believed if they looked human it would be better?

They are giant, transforming, sentient robots from another world, remember.

If anything, they could have used Alternators forms, since those look like real cars and also cool robots, but again, mass shifting wasn't allowed (If it'd even be needed in that case.).

I liked the movie, I enjoyed it. Too much human involvement which I hope will be changed next time, but yeah, I liked it. Not without flaw, but I don't think it needs to be overly slated just because mugs are going overboard, which is what I feel you're doing.

Honestly, you pretty much had the noose around Bay's neck at the time concept art was released.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you genuinely believed if they looked human it would be better?

They are giant, transforming, sentient robots from another world, remember.

If anything, they could have used Alternators forms, since those look like real cars and also cool robots, but again, mass shifting wasn't allowed (If it'd even be needed in that case.).

I liked the movie, I enjoyed it. Too much human involvement which I hope will be changed next time, but yeah, I liked it. Not without flaw, but I don't think it needs to be overly slated just because mugs are going overboard, which is what I feel you're doing.

Honestly, you pretty much had the noose around Bay's neck at the time concept art was released.

-AC

ac, you missed the point about empathy. now be honest: did you care when jazz was ripped in half? did you even give half a shit?
i know i didnt. they had no humanity to them, which is what set the G1 series apart. it wasnt about character designs and storylines necessarily, but about character developement and great voice acting...imho.

apart from prime, i really didnt care. and what of prime? was it really character developement on the part of the film, or simply the sweet nostalgia of the original series pulling at our heartstrings?

if you're happy with mindless robots with whom we have no empathy, then fine. my point however is that i as well as many are not...at all. and yes for us its enough to kill the point of the story.

Originally posted by roughrider


yeah, got that jpeg in my profile. thanks again for your well thought and relevant contributions. i feel so intellectually humbled by your hotlinking skillz.

Well it wasn't G1 Jazz, it wasn't a G1 movie, just inspired by.

We weren't given TIME to care that Jazz got ripped in half, and I still felt kind of bad considering he had a pretty good homage.

It was the first movie, you have to consider that, and how much it costs to make those things. Considering it could have been a flop, and lots of people were willing to ignore the final product and boycott it anyway, they probably couldn't afford two hours worth of robot animation.

I do get what you're saying, but I went to see it with someone who brought along her two younger sisters. The youngest one was very upset seeing Bumblebee get tortured AND Jazz getting killed. So maybe it's not the movie's fault, I couldn't watch the G1 movie without crying at Prime's death when I was that age, and while it still tugged at me for a while after, it's nothing to any of us now is it? It's just a show we enjoy.

Maybe the empathy isn't there because we have less emotional investment in the characters and more in the general G1 franchise, which the movie wasn't.

-AC

2 hours is plenty of time to develope main characters. a half hour can be sufficient time. as far as not being moved by prime's death in the original movie, speak for yourself.

it was upsetting to see bumblebee tortured simply because time was invested into buiding his character (however weak it was, there was still a bit of time invested beyond 2 sentences of ridiculous dialogue and a brakdancing move).

its simple. no time, no dialogue/interaction=dont give a shit. even PRIME didnt seem to give much of a shit as he held his half-a-friend

What's interesting is that no one's agreeing with what you're saying so far. So where did "us" come from?

The Prime death is still a choker for me too.
Every aspect of it drips sadness.

Certain similar experiences we encounter in life'll compound that for some too, myself included.

For sure, the finanances were encroaching on TF time,
the cost could arguably have been better when spending less time on mass-shifting/transforming allsparks and Jar-Jar-Binks-like Frenzy-related shinanigans, but the poor script would have to rely on such souless machinations to sustain the screen time given the lack of TF content in the script.

The leaked script, by the way was for me and, I believe, Schecter the thing that worried from the outset. Had it for ages before the movie came out. Even then, the lack of consideration for any characters outside of Prime and Bumblebee was the huge worrier.

The thing read so human character biased and I was praying that this was some kind of script given only to the on-screen actors.
Turns out that it was actually more or less finished, TF wise.


And reading it in that form without the flashy CGI, it was nakedness and flakyness.

Originally posted by Schecter


yeah, got that jpeg in my profile. thanks again for your well thought and relevant contributions. i feel so intellectually humbled by your hotlinking skillz.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
What's interesting is that no one's agreeing with what you're saying so far. So where did "us" come from?

whats interesting is you cant seem to understand that YOUR little forum is dead.

and roughrider (manly name, i must say) you can stop proving your skills as a picture poster. im already impressed, i must say.

sarcasm aside, fanboy groupthink wont chase me away, nor will it wash away the blatant truth staring you in the face. so i will continue to laugh at your non-forum. the fact stands: you've produced a page and a half. thats just pathetic beyond any shadow of a doubt. thats 'hang your head and walk away without a word spoken' pathetic. yet here you are, acting like only your opinions are valid. typical fanboys


cry for me

Originally posted by Schecter
whats interesting is you cant seem to understand that YOUR little forum is dead.

and roughrider (manly name, i must say) you can stop proving your skills as a picture poster. im already impressed, i must say.

sarcasm aside, fanboy groupthink wont chase me away, nor will it wash away the blatant truth staring you in the face. so i will continue to laugh at your non-forum. the fact stands: you've produced a page and a half. thats just pathetic beyond any shadow of a doubt. thats 'hang your head and walk away without a word spoken' pathetic. yet here you are, acting like only your opinions are valid. typical fanboys


cry for me

yet more jpg's for the fail.

why dont you try challenging my opinion instead of validating it with your picture-posting idiocy?


:edit: hey speaking of jpg's. i have an idea for a transformers movie forum banner

http://www.uekayaking.com/images/sae_gulf/dead_fish_2.jpg

LOL

"Sleeping with the fish"

Godfather.......



Hope y'all don't mind but Ive just had to nick some of these.

Originally posted by Schecter
yet more jpg's for the fail.

why dont you try challenging my opinion instead of validating it with your picture-posting idiocy?


:edit: hey speaking of jpg's. i have an idea for a transformers movie forum banner

http://www.uekayaking.com/images/sae_gulf/dead_fish_2.jpg

What can I say to a person who has "LOL RAPE" in their title, and thinks it's funny?
Debate a sniggering little troll like you ? It's beneath me.

Originally posted by roughrider
What can I say to a person who has "LOL RAPE" in their title, and thinks it's funny?
Debate a sniggering little troll like you ? It's beneath me.

funny since the only one trolling in this thread is you.
you know what? go back to posting stupid pictures since you obviously have nothing intelligent to say.

Originally posted by Schecter
funny since the only one trolling in this thread is you.
you know what? go back to posting stupid pictures since you obviously have nothing intelligent to say.

Originally posted by Schecter
whats interesting is you cant seem to understand that YOUR little forum is dead.



What's interesting is that you somehow think this is my forum, despite the fact that I never post in here..

thats interesting (no it isnt)

Well I tried..

What's the point of this thread? I liked it. End of transaction.

Originally posted by Schecter
yet more jpg's for the fail.

why dont you try challenging my opinion instead of validating it with your picture-posting idiocy?


:edit: hey speaking of jpg's. i have an idea for a transformers movie forum banner

http://www.uekayaking.com/images/sae_gulf/dead_fish_2.jpg

You don't have to dwell here if you don't like it and think it's that bad of a forum, you know.

Fair enough, your opinion is that the movie sucked, we do get that. I don't see why you're trying to insist the forum is a failure rather than trying to contribute something. It's not supposed to be a "movie" forum anyway, just general TF.

I'm quite surprised you're acting in such a way. As if the movie personally insulted you to the point of this tirade.

You don't like the movie or the forum, we get it. Perhaps leave others to enjoy the forum now.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't have to dwell here if you don't like it and think it's that bad of a forum, you know.

Fair enough, your opinion is that the movie sucked, we do get that. I don't see why you're trying to insist the forum is a failure rather than trying to contribute something. It's not supposed to be a "movie" forum anyway, just general TF.

-i am contributing something. hence the thread.

-though ideally you would be right, this is categorised in the movie franchise forum as opposed to cartoon/comic/cinema franchises such as batman and spiderman. anal, yes. but im still correct



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm quite surprised you're acting in such a way. As if the movie personally insulted you to the point of this tirade.

funny how you turn an overscrutinous eye to 1 persons opinion, and lable it as a "tirade" while turning a convenient blind eye to the trolling which has plagued the thread. could it be that you're flat wrong in your assessment that i feel personally insulted? i believe so. but if ad homimen jibber jabber is what you choose to bring to the table, then so be it. dont think you're going to chase me out though with false labels and fallacy.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't like the movie or the forum, we get it. Perhaps leave others to enjoy the forum now.

-AC

i made a single thread. a thread stating my opinion. if YOU dont like it than perhaps you should avoid the topic. you behave as if i entered this forum with a bomb strapped to myself declaring that all must view this thread or perish. if im so wrong and this topic is moot, then let it sink like a stone at the bottom of a pond. too much sense?

Originally posted by Schecter
-i am contributing something. hence the thread.

-though ideally you would be right, this is categorised in the movie franchise forum as opposed to cartoon/comic/cinema franchises such as batman and spiderman. anal, yes. but im still correct

The intent behind this forum's creation was not the movie, as it was largely Scythe's idea. The movie was just incentive.

Originally posted by Schecter
funny how you turn an overscrutinous eye to 1 persons opinion, and lable it as a "tirade" while turning a convenient blind eye to the trolling which has plagued the thread. could it be that you're flat wrong in your assessment that i feel personally insulted? i believe so. but if ad homimen jibber jabber is what you choose to bring to the table, then so be it. dont think you're going to chase me out though with false labels and fallacy.

The trolling is bs also, I'm not saying it isn't, but creating a thread with a title such as this, with intent such as this, isn't exactly suggesting that you are here to peacefully put forth your opinion is it?

You are suggesting you were correct in your verdict of the movie, for you, perhaps. Not for everybody. I respect your opinion and your right to it, just not the way you've gone about it.

I'm not attempting to chase you out anywhere, I just think the way you initially conducted yourself was a shame.

Originally posted by Schecter
i made a single thread. a thread stating my opinion. if YOU dont like it than perhaps you should avoid the topic. you behave as if i entered this forum with a bomb strapped to myself declaring that all must view this thread or perish. if im so wrong and this topic is moot, then let it sink like a stone at the bottom of a pond. too much sense?

You made a thread essentially, humourously or not, telling people they were wrong, in denial if they liked it, and various other things. I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong, I'm suggesting you didn't go about it in the best way, in my opinion.

And by contributing I mean since you're such a fan of the G1 series, perhaps contribute to some of those threads instead of making sure YOUR thread stays at the top, and others trolling you should do the same.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

The trolling is bs also, I'm not saying it isn't, but creating a thread with a title such as this, with intent such as this, isn't exactly suggesting that you are here to peacefully put forth your opinion is it?

i could give half a shit if its "peaceful". you go ahead and make buddy-buddy threads, and ill express my opinion as is.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are suggesting you were correct in your verdict of the movie, for you, perhaps. Not for everybody. I respect your opinion and your right to it, just not the way you've gone about it.

I'm not attempting to chase you out anywhere, I just think the way you initially conducted yourself was a shame.

a shame? now who's acting offended

you feel free to express your opinion on the topic as i will. you think im wrong? fine. but with all due respect, cram the personal appraisal of my motives. its irritating and downright hypocritical. regardless of how polite and civil you attempt to package it in, its ad homenim dribble.

ill contribute how i please to this and any forum.

I've seen you scold people for doing exactly what you are now, so why you're calling me hypocritical is a little odd.

The reason I didn't highlight YOU being admittedly trolled so much is because with all due "respect", you sort of invited it. If you're gonna act as you please, which you have the right to, you shouldn't complain about being trolled. I saw that slight humour underlying your post, which is why my first reply was similar, I'm not attacking you, I just think that as a TF fan yourself, I don't get why you aren't attempting to boost the forum, as oppose to demean it.

Granted, it's in the movie section, but it's clearly populated by a lot of G1 threads, and was inspired by such.

I was just making suggestions, not trying to make you do or not do anything. As I said:

"You made a thread essentially, humourously or not, telling people they were wrong, in denial if they liked it, and various other things. I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong, I'm suggesting you didn't go about it in the best way, in my opinion.

And by contributing I mean since you're such a fan of the G1 series, perhaps contribute to some of those threads instead of making sure YOUR thread stays at the top, and others trolling you should do the same.".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've seen you scold people for doing exactly what you are now, so why you're calling me hypocritical is a little odd.

The reason I didn't highlight YOU being admittedly trolled so much is because with all due "respect", you sort of invited it. If you're gonna act as you please, which you have the right to, you shouldn't complain about being trolled. I saw that slight humour underlying your post, which is why my first reply was similar, I'm not attacking you, I just think that as a TF fan yourself, I don't get why you aren't attempting to boost the forum, as oppose to demean it.

Granted, it's in the movie section, but it's clearly populated by a lot of G1 threads, and was inspired by such.

I was just making suggestions, not trying to make you do or not do anything. As I said:

"You made a thread essentially, humourously or not, telling people they were wrong, in denial if they liked it, and various other things. I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong, I'm suggesting you didn't go about it in the best way, in my opinion.

And by contributing I mean since you're such a fan of the G1 series, perhaps contribute to some of those threads instead of making sure YOUR thread stays at the top, and others trolling you should do the same.".

-AC


boy thats terrific. what about the topic?


unless the implication is that the fate of the forum teeters upon my own will? god i hope not

What about it? "Hahaha I was right"?

I disagree, not much more can be said.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The intent behind this forum's creation was not the movie, as it was largely Scythe's idea. The movie was just incentive.

-AC

Which after much consideration, hasn't turned out to such an expected failure. I mean sure the movie boosted it's popularity, bt TF have been somewhat of a pop culture staple for most things 80's and so and so forth. The movie may not have turned out as to some people's expectations but there's plenty of other books/toys/art/stories that would garner interest.

Things seem slow, but take a good look at all the other movie sub forums.

Time will tell I guess.

Rewatchability is the big factor on how truly great movies are judged.

AC, you have noted, yourself, that the movie's release bought an influx of posting about the movie from a lot of the general cinema going public that may not have had been so familiar with TFs as longtime fans..

My prediction is that once that novelty/hype has worn off and the usual summer blockbuster crowd that you mentioned have gone and maybe a few years later when the next bigger-better-fx action flick has surpassed this, the film's actual content will be more needed for enjoyment.

The movie may look polished, but when I see a rape, Im not concerned about how technically well the rape is being done, Im just like "euuuuurggghhh!!!! Rape!" or whatever.

The holes and weakpoints'll start over time to be more and more naked for all to see. And this'll be seen for what it was.


Merely a polished looking action flick that had similarities/names and a few concepts from something once loved.

Fandom definitely seems split by this movie into two camps, for real.

Its true that Bay succeeded in doing what he set out to do on a relatively small budget for his employers with massive returns..

But it is also equally true that Bay stuck his fingers up at too many things (including the fans) that made TFs great in the first place and dumbed down things to such a condescending level that it will always draw criticism from a hell of a lot of the original subject matter's fans who will feel that as the original run was sometimes superior, that this muchly hyped movie failed them.

As if your audience leaves say, a third of your audience feeling disappointed and that their intelligence has been insulted, then you might say from that POV that the movie was a failure.

The movie is called Transformers yet is oh-so boringly centered around humans that it leaves most feeling swindled. Another failure in many peoples eyes, down to budget, or not.

Its all about points of view.



A truely great TF movie wouldn't have provoked this reaction.

In all fairness, there would have been a reaction like this anyway.

If it was G1 accurate then the general populace would have slated it, probably. Michael Bay wasn't ever going to "win", certain people had the noose around his neck, as I said, at concept art stages.

I think it's just extraordinarily ridiculous to go on about how Bay is "raping" Transformers. It's JUST a franchise, it's not life or death.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
\
If it was G1 accurate then the general populace would have slated it, probably. Michael Bay wasn't ever going to "win", certain people had the noose around his neck, as I said, at concept art stages.

wow, so we're back to this completely fallacious generalisation?
though people were very critical, and (as is the case with myself) were weary and very expectant of the crap churning to follow, we were willing to give it a chance. i would have settled for all the 'new and improved' character designs if they (he) had managed to keep the story within relevance to its namesake. THEY are the story, and humans are secondary characters. thats part of what set transformers apart from the rest. that alone is a complete rape (yes RAPE) of the story. add on weak to nonexistant character developement and any shadow of relevance is destroyed. IMHO

to avoid points relating to that and then to try to oversimplify and belittle the opinions of others to "waaaaa i dont like the way they look because its not like my 20 year old G1 toys" is getting tiring and stale.

I've seen countless tirades against the movie, quite literally saying "IRONHIDE WASN'T RED! PRIME HAD FLAMES! BUMBLEBEE DIDN'T HAVE HORNS!". So f*cking what? Opinions like that do exist, and there are a great deal of them.

This movie largely appealed, or was aimed at, fans of the series and being that it was G1 inspired, a lot of that kind of criticism came from G1 fans. What I don't understand is, Beast Wars made Prime a gorilla, and that caught less flak than him actually having a new paint job.

If you were genuinely prepared to give it a chance, then fine, that's you. I somewhat find that hard to believe given your reaction to the movie so early in its production, but I take your word for it. There are many unlike you. Nothing I've said is untrue simply because it doesn't apply to you, and I'm not referring to you every single time I point out detractors.

As for calling it rape, I just think that's ridiculous, personally. I love Transformers, but it is what it is, and some people are taking it too far. Michael Bay got death threats for crying out loud.

I agree that the humans had too much involvement and it should have been more the bots' movie than the humans', I definitely agree with the point you made above. THEY are the story, and that's one of the negatives of the movie for me too, but I still really liked the movie. I just think people are taking this a bit too seriously in my opinion.

-AC

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've seen countless tirades against the movie, quite literally saying "IRONHIDE WASN'T RED! PRIME HAD FLAMES! BUMBLEBEE DIDN'T HAVE HORNS!". So f*cking what? Opinions like that do exist, and there are a great deal of them.

This movie largely appealed, or was aimed at, fans of the series and being that it was G1 inspired, a lot of that kind of criticism came from G1 fans. What I don't understand is, Beast Wars made Prime a gorilla, and that caught less flak than him actually having a new paint job.

If you were genuinely prepared to give it a chance, then fine, that's you. I somewhat find that hard to believe given your reaction to the movie so early in its production, but I take your word for it. There are many unlike you. Nothing I've said is untrue simply because it doesn't apply to you, and I'm not referring to you every single time I point out detractors.

As for calling it rape, I just think that's ridiculous, personally. I love Transformers, but it is what it is, and some people are taking it too far. Michael Bay got death threats for crying out loud.

I agree that the humans had too much involvement and it should have been more the bots' movie than the humans', I definitely agree with the point you made above. THEY are the story, and that's one of the negatives of the movie for me too, but I still really liked the movie. I just think people are taking this a bit too seriously in my opinion.

-AC

-AC

the opinions and actions of lunatic fanboys who go so far as to make terroristic threats are not the cross-section of those who dont like the film. so there are people who will never be pleased. agreed. how is this relevant to general opinion? i wish you would stop warping the issue like this. its blatant strawman, ac. setting me apart as the exception does not flatter me or rectify the problem. it just preserves the fallacy.

You like the word "fallacy", I get it.

My point is simply this; like the movie or loathe it, we all love TF in some format, so why not just move to get a subforum where we can discuss the areas of the franchise we do like, or if not, at least make a collective attempt in turning this one into a place where everything can be discussed under the same roof.

Hence why you don't really need to push the forum as dead, dying or a failure. It doesn't need to be, we can all make it work out.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You like the word "fallacy", I get it.

My point is simply this; like the movie or loathe it, we all love TF in some format, so why not just move to get a subforum where we can discuss the areas of the franchise we do like, or if not, at least make a collective attempt in turning this one into a place where everything can be discussed under the same roof.

Hence why you don't really need to push the forum as dead, dying or a failure. It doesn't need to be, we can all make it work out.

-AC

im just calling a spade a spade while you're shooting the messenger.

i LOOOOOOOVE g1 transformers, but apart from links to videos i really cant think of what i would like to discuss. 'how about them transformers, huh? wasnt that a trip...back then?'. the reason this forum is barron is simply because apart from the film there is nothing new from the franchise. thats what drives discussion: new material which spark public interest.

make it work out? you're talking like someone who just signed on to the interwebs for the first time this morning. you know damn well that the success of this or any forum is not up to an individual or small group. people using the googles and finding their way here. thats how this forum sprung from a small group of friends bullshitting about starwars into this monster we see before us. public interest.

I guess it depends on where you go.

There are entire forums for TF, with subforums, and those are successful. So maybe it's the lack of focus or the people here, I have no idea.

I suppose you're right in the sense that TF is best discussed when everyone involved is a fan, such as the TF forums you wouldn't sign up to by chance. Whereas here it's like "I'll sign up to KMC, oh, a TF forum! I also like TF.".

-AC

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Time will tell I guess.

Rewatchability is the big factor on how truly great movies are judged.


It will fail miserably then, because once the effects become dated all that'll be left is an anachronistic Hollywood genericfest, with script and acting courtesy of the KMC Comic Book Versus Forum, and characters with the emotional range of Robocop.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've seen countless tirades against the movie, quite literally saying "IRONHIDE WASN'T RED! PRIME HAD FLAMES! BUMBLEBEE DIDN'T HAVE HORNS!"

-AC

Hate those people.

i have yet to meet a single one

Originally posted by Schecter
i have yet to meet a single one

Consider yourself lucky. There are die-hard fans out there that b*tch and moan about every little aspect in the TF universe. I know every so called 'nerdy' franchise has 'em, but they give us common fanbase people a bad reputation. They scare off the women also, even though I know quite a few female TF fans. My girlfriend for instance collects the figures, watches the G1 show and loved the movie. Her reason for liking the film: "it was a good movie that entertained." There you go, keyword 'entertained'. If less people took into consideration the fanboyish aspects of the flick and saw it as an entertaining film that didn't soil the good name of the franchise, why complain? Or for that matter, expect so much of it? I didn't expect much of the film except for what I expect from every film and that is to not let me down and be at least enjoyable. Nothing more nothing less.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth


A truely great TF movie wouldn't have provoked this reaction.

Idealistic, but naive. Any film made at any time, no matter how acclaimed by the critics, successful at the box office, showered with Academy Awards, will have haters somewhere. That Citizen Kane is pretentious, Apocalypse Now is a mess, the Star Wars Trilogy is childish & cliched, Blade Runner is cluttered & vague - they will say those things somewhere in the world. ONE hater is enough to start a thread here, and because they say so it's true? No - just a person with a opinion is all they are.
You didn't like Transformers, Schecter? Fine. But your thread topic is crapola. The film is a blockbuster smash worldwide, and did better with the critics than the average Michael Bay film, perhaps due to Steven Spielberg's influence. It's is a success and more films will be coming; hence, you are not "right" about anything. You only have an opinion, and are acting like an attention-seeking crank in sharing it with others. Dissenting opinions can be put to use in the general movie thread about this. It's a waste here, because your thesis goes squarely against the facts.

Originally posted by Scythe
Consider yourself lucky. There are die-hard fans out there that b*tch and moan about every little aspect in the TF universe. I know every so called 'nerdy' franchise has 'em, but they give us common fanbase people a bad reputation. They scare off the women also, even though I know quite a few female TF fans. My girlfriend for instance collects the figures, watches the G1 show and loved the movie. Her reason for liking the film: "it was a good movie that entertained." There you go, keyword 'entertained'. If less people took into consideration the fanboyish aspects of the flick and saw it as an entertaining film that didn't soil the good name of the franchise, why complain? Or for that matter, expect so much of it? I didn't expect much of the film except for what I expect from every film and that is to not let me down and be at least enjoyable. Nothing more nothing less.

i need a sensible plot and relevant characters which are at least halfway developed. thats all i asked for. i was willing to forgive MUCH if they had just gotten that right. being a child of the eightees, you'd be surprised at how much cheese im willing to overlook so long as the character developement and story works.

thanks btw for being one of the only people here who has managed to politely disagree with me without going on a trollish crybaby fit, and acting personally insulted. unfortunately however, others have managed to prove that whiney fanboys infest both sides of this debate.

Originally posted by roughrider
Idealistic, but naive. Any film made at any time, no matter how acclaimed by the critics, successful at the box office, showered with Academy Awards, will have haters somewhere. That Citizen Kane is pretentious, Apocalypse Now is a mess, the Star Wars Trilogy is childish & cliched, Blade Runner is cluttered & vague - they will say those things somewhere in the world. ONE hater is enough to start a thread here, and because they say so it's true? No - just a person with a opinion is all they are.
You didn't like Transformers, Schecter? Fine. But your thread topic is crapola. The film is a blockbuster smash worldwide, and did better with the critics than the average Michael Bay film, perhaps due to Steven Spielberg's influence. It's is a success and more films will be coming; hence, you are not "right" about anything. You only have an opinion, and are acting like an attention-seeking crank in sharing it with others. Dissenting opinions can be put to use in the general movie thread about this. It's a waste here, because your thesis goes squarely against the facts.

translation:

"waaa waaaa i dont like your opinion so ill continue trolling, insulting, bashing, and playing ad homenim games. waaaaaa. anyone who has an opinion different than mine is 'crapola' and goddamn you for pointing a gun to my head and forcing me to read this thread. waaaaaaa"

better take care of that diaper rash, champ

Originally posted by Schecter
i need a sensible plot and relevant characters which are at least halfway developed. thats all i asked for.

See, and that to me means is asking alot from any movie. Most of them have recently sucked bitterly to me. It's my tastes, but the last time I saw a 'good' movie in my eyes was Pan's Labryinth.

Originally posted by Schecter
thanks btw for being one of the only people here who has managed to politely disagree with me without going on a trollish crybaby fit, and acting personally insulted.

Oh no problem, there's no sense in soiling one's good name over childish debates that could easily be taken care of in an adult fashion.

Originally posted by Schecter
iunfortunately however, others have managed to prove that whiney fanboys infest both sides of this debate.

Well yeah, but I for one am able to withstand the rants and raves of a TF fanboy. Probably couldn't stand listening to a Anime/Star Wars/Star Trek fanboy, but TF fanboyism is not as bad. Still very, very annoying though...

Originally posted by Scythe
See, and that to me means is asking alot from any movie. Most of them have recently sucked bitterly to me. It's my tastes, but the last time I saw a 'good' movie in my eyes was Pan's Labryinth.


That's just the way it works, though. Most films are in fact shit. Why shouldn't we ask for those basic qualities?

I probably truly like about 10-15 films. I'd prefer that they actually spent time making a good film, instead of having to lower my standards to watch an endless parade of films containing 2 hours of crap and explosions.

Originally posted by Schecter
translation:

"waaa waaaa i dont like your opinion so ill continue trolling, insulting, bashing, and playing ad homenim games. waaaaaa. anyone who has an opinion different than mine is 'crapola' and goddamn you for pointing a gun to my head and forcing me to read this thread. waaaaaaa"

better take care of that diaper rash, champ


Well, I'll think I've given you more than enough of my attention. Have fun yelling against the brick wall that is reality, right in front of your nose. I'll be talking with people with some more maturity.

Originally posted by roughrider

Well, I'll think I've given you more than enough of my attention. Have fun yelling against the brick wall that is reality, right in front of your nose. I'll be talking with people with some more maturity.

you'll be missed hi2

btw, this thread is already ranked #11 in posts

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
That's just the way it works, though. Most films are in fact shit. Why shouldn't we ask for those basic qualities?

Well yeah, but after flick after flick of just pure crap, I've stop expecting it.

The forum is slowing down, yes, but that doesn't mean that the fans are candidates for "I told you so's", IMO.

Originally posted by Impediment
The forum is slowing down, yes, but that doesn't mean that the fans are candidates for "I told you so's", IMO.

A reasonable point.

Originally posted by Impediment
The forum is slowing down, yes, but that doesn't mean that the fans are candidates for "I told you so's", IMO.

i disagree


also...i told you so

Hahaha.

Originally posted by roughrider
Idealistic, but naive. Any film made at any time, no matter how acclaimed by the critics, successful at the box office, showered with Academy Awards, will have haters somewhere. That Citizen Kane is pretentious, Apocalypse Now is a mess, the Star Wars Trilogy is childish & cliched, Blade Runner is cluttered & vague - they will say those things somewhere in the world. ONE hater is enough to start a thread here, and because they say so it's true? No - just a person with a opinion is all they are.
You didn't like Transformers, Schecter? Fine. But your thread topic is crapola. The film is a blockbuster smash worldwide, and did better with the critics than the average Michael Bay film, perhaps due to Steven Spielberg's influence. It's is a success and more films will be coming; hence, you are not "right" about anything. You only have an opinion, and are acting like an attention-seeking crank in sharing it with others. Dissenting opinions can be put to use in the general movie thread about this. It's a waste here, because your thesis goes squarely against the facts.

Nope. Its neither idealstic OR naive.
My argument is that the end product's angle is so far removed in concept from its original form (That it seems to have no problem using the original name from) that it drew criticism for it.

IE: If Blade Runner was remade from the POV of that fast food stall owner guy, (Ford now pops in for a burger and thats all we see of him for the flick)
Citizen Kane focusing on the guy who once polished on of Orson Welles' limos...
Or Apocalypse Now spending its running time on the story of the guy who supplies the paperclips in the office that Sheen was dispatched from rather than the mission to kill Kurtz.

THATS the problem I have with it. Thats way more important than the colour of anyone's bodywork.

And the thesis I believe is not flawed.
Watch the movie.
Then count the amount of time that the TFs are featured in full dialogue mode.
(Counting the time that the TFs in Robot mode are visually featured in full. Not close ups)
Run that against the screen time of the picture.
Then finally noticed the title that the makers of this movie have dared to use instead of "Shia LeBeouf and friend's pubescent teen adventure".
The barefaced cheek of it all will then stand out a little easier.

And thats without getting to the other issues we have had with the movie...

Victor Von Doom was right. Once the FX novelty is gone, the hollow nastiness of it all will remain.

Hmm, interesting...

Well I liked the movie, I felt empathy for the characters and liked how the army was effective against the Decepticons .I wasn't a transformers fan until I saw this movie which got me interested in The Transformers universe. You can vent,rant and whine all you want but many people liked it so I guess you weren't right afterall. Good Day.

That's good.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nope. Its neither idealstic OR naive.
My argument is that the end product's angle is so far removed in concept from its original form (That it seems to have no problem using the original name from) that it drew criticism for it.

IE: If Blade Runner was remade from the POV of that fast food stall owner guy, (Ford now pops in for a burger and thats all we see of him for the flick)
Citizen Kane focusing on the guy who once polished on of Orson Welles' limos...
Or Apocalypse Now spending its running time on the story of the guy who supplies the paperclips in the office that Sheen was dispatched from rather than the mission to kill Kurtz.

THATS the problem I have with it. Thats way more important than the colour of anyone's bodywork.

And the thesis I believe is not flawed.
Watch the movie.
Then count the amount of time that the TFs are featured in full dialogue mode.
(Counting the time that the TFs in Robot mode are visually featured in full. Not close ups)
Run that against the screen time of the picture.
Then finally noticed the title that the makers of this movie have dared to use instead of "Shia LeBeouf and friend's pubescent teen adventure".
The barefaced cheek of it all will then stand out a little easier.

And thats without getting to the other issues we have had with the movie...

Victor Von Doom was right. Once the FX novelty is gone, the hollow nastiness of it all will remain.

For the way the plot was shaped, you can look to Steven Spielberg. He wanted the heart of the film to be Spike's bonding with Bumblebee - just like the classic story of a boy bonding with his first car, in everyday life. And for that, he took pointers from what he did in E.T. Elliot & E.T. bonded on a non-verbal level, because they could barely communicate; that's why Bumblebbe was silent for nearly the whole film, until the end. The theme of being "more than meets the eye" is reflected in what Spike and the other humans learn about the Autobots, and vice versa. Some Autobots, like Ironhide, needed to be convinced humans were woth saving, and they learn.

Also, if they took exclusively the point of view of the Transformers, there would be no mystery to the plot. We would know exactly why they are here, and just watch them push around humans to an objective we already know is coming. By doing it this way, with a bunch of random events happeneing in the world - the Qatar attack, the odd behaviour of Spike's new car, Frenzy infiltrating Air Force One, the significance of Sam Great-Great Grandfather and his glasses - climaxing with the reveal of what Sector Seven is keeping frozen underground , it keeps the audience interested in learning what is happeneing, and how it's connected. It's considered good storytelling.
Don't forget - they spend a LOT of money to not just make this for hard-core fans or casual ones, but to introduce it to new people who never followed this series, bought the toys etc. They need a primer & introduction.

And, keep in mind the film begins & ends with narration from Optimus Prime, and his opening speech gives us some clues. I get the idea this is part of the large message he is sending out at the end, to other Autobots across the galaxy, so it's from the point of view of after everything that happened. So, the film can be considered to be from his point of view, ultimately.

Lastly, as to the title of this thread and it's point, if the film had underperformed or flopped financially, and drew some of the worst reviews of the year (like Godzilla in 1998), Schecter could start a thread here and have some real ammunition to gloat over, like how Michael Bay was the wrong hire and I told you it would all turn out bad yada yada...but those two things didn't happened. So, all you got is a guy ranting about this & that. The film is a smash hit, and they are making more, so he isn't "right" in any way.

Ditto

we are well aware of spielberg's intentions behind his decisions. the argument is that they made the wrong decisions and essentially just made a mindless bubblegum pop film based on the transformers.

Originally posted by roughrider

Lastly, as to the title of this thread and it's point, if the film had underperformed or flopped financially, and drew some of the worst reviews of the year (like Godzilla in 1998), Schecter could start a thread here and have some real ammunition to gloat over, like how Michael Bay was the wrong hire and I told you it would all turn out bad yada yada...but those two things didn't happened. So, all you got is a guy ranting about this & that. The film is a smash hit, and they are making more, so he isn't "right" in any way.

not that box office sales have anything to do with the greatness/shittiness of a film, but:
godzilla:

Total US Gross $136,314,294
International Gross $239,685,706
Worldwide Gross $376,000,000

transformers:

Total US Gross $310,180,000
International Gross $367,500,000
Worldwide Gross $677,680,000

oh but thats half as much so that means its crap, right?

the godfather:
Total US Gross $134,966,411
International Gross $133,533,589
Worldwide Gross $268,500,000


while we're on the topic: in the same year, shrek the third, generally refered to as crap, grossed more than transformers.

Total US Gross $321,012,359
International Gross $418,400,000
Worldwide Gross $739,412,359

shrek 2, even worse, is the third top grossing film of all time:

Total US Gross $436,721,703
International Gross $478,556,883
Worldwide Gross $915,278,586



"why" you might ask? children. families. when a movie is hyped and marketed towards kids through not only a film but tons of merchandising from action figures to party hats, the film will gross heavily by default. simple fact of cinema as it is today.

here's a list of the top 100 grossing films;

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/records/100million.php

plenty of box office lemons exist on that list, for the very reason i have stated. so, come to me with a decent argument against mine, instead of trying to teach everyone about why decisions were made and how they made sooooo much mooooney so it just has to be great. naaaa, you said you were done posting in this thread, right?

anyhoo, let me take a moment to point out that a little over a week after this thread's creation (speaking of 'by the numbers') this thread has generated enough interest to make it #7 overall in posts and #26 most viewed. maybe im just a really popular guy? or maybe there is juct a complete lack of, as ive said, public interest in this film and whatever comes of it.

that, IMHO is what judges greatness in cinema. the test of time.

score: D-

Godzilla did OK by the end, but was expected to do much better; that worldwide gross is close to what they were looking for in North America alone. The people at ColumbiaTristar were putting a positive spin on it, saying they planned to make a sequel, but they instead dropped the whole concept and the film rights went back to ToHo in Japan.
The next film by Roland Emmerich - The Patriot - also underperformed in 2000, and that was about the American Revolution! The company just let him walk after that.

As to your other above numbers - keep in mind when The Godfather was released, it became the biggest blockbuster in history until Jaws took the record three years later, on a budget around $10 million (1970's dollars). Even adjusting for inflation, films like Godzilla & Transformers have budgets three times as large as a Godfather film.

And I'm not here to argue the merits of Shrek the Third; currently, Transformers is only a few million behind it in North America.
And Shrek 2 - which you consider even worse - actually has an 88% critical approval rating at Rotten tomatoes - http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/shrek_2/
Just because you say it's crap doesn't mean it's so - it's just your opinion.
Me, personally, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I worried a great deal about Michael Bay doing this film, and he actually suprised me with a terrifically entertaining effort.

why would you have been worried since he delivered exactly what everyone expected he would?

as far as rotten tomatoes, bad source of evidence to support your argument considering transformers was given a rotten rating.

anyway, you said that godzilla "underperformed or flopped financially".
of course it underperformed, but given enough hype any piece of garbage can be a blockbuster, as godzilla has proven.

too late to edit, but had to add this point to counter your inflation theory.

the departed:

Total US Gross $133,311,000
International Gross $157,228,042
Worldwide Gross $290,539,042

that comes in at #208. does that make it twice as crappy as godzilla?

Originally posted by Schecter
too late to edit, but had to add this point to counter your inflation theory.

the departed:

Total US Gross $133,311,000
International Gross $157,228,042
Worldwide Gross $290,539,042

that comes in at #208. does that make it twice as crappy as godzilla?

Of course not. If it was completely about money, Martin Scorsese would be considered a failure, rather than one of the most acclaimed American filmmakers of the last 30 years.
But in this particular case, expectations are telling: The Departed suprised by turning out to be Scorsese's biggest ever box office hit, and brought him his long-awaited first Oscar. The perfect example of a film loved by audiences & critics, and given its due with awards.
Godzilla was specifically targeting the same audience that ate up Jurassic Park, but did barely half the business of the latter and was critically savaged.
The Rotten Tomatoes example justs shows how one can consider two films absolute crap ( Shrek 2 & 3), yet one gets stellar reviews while the latter gets mediocre notices. So, it's not about absloute truth about what the film is - it's just your view of it, is all.
As for the reviews for Transformers, all I said is it's gotten better notices than other Michael Bay films of the past - he won't be up for Golden Raspberry Awards for Worst Film this year, as he was with Armageddon & Pearl Harbour; my prediction.
Perception is something among fans. For several years now, the media & Star Wars fans have been grumbling & nitpicking over the prequels. Just check out the forums here! So many have complained, it's hard to believe three films could gross a combined $2.5 billion and no one likes them(?) Then you look at reviews for them on Rotten Tomatoes, and amazingly they are all certified fresh - even The Phantom Menace! Even more amazing, was an article circulated there that shows the prequels may have been better reviewed overall, than the originals were when first released! (Time & percepetion; very funny things...)
So, who's complaining other than a vocal minority, who somehow feel entitled to tell George Lucas what to do with his own story?

There seems to be a similar minority, here.

perhaps its much much simpler than that?
think of how many parents took their kids to see the departed.
or how much marketing towards children was invested.
whats the sum total of all departed action figures, happy meal toys, cartoon and comic book deals...etc?

answer to all of the above: none

regardless of what a piece of crap godzilla was, the kids ate it all up.
why? because they were programmed to do so through marketing strategies. and any family man or woman can tell you who calls the shots when it comes to what movies a family goes out to see.

for this reason, imho, box office numbers are not a reliable yardstick for quality of film, when marketing towards children is involved.

its sad really, since because of this it seems titanic will never be dethroned as the top grossing movie of all time. the colossal lump of crap that it is.

also, i ran a poll in the star wars PT forum, and while the opinions toward the PT were generally positive, about 50% pointed to the opinion that it does not quite stand up to the greatness of the OT.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t448201.html

point is: you do not have the power to determine which opinions are a minority, just on the grounds that you said so. presumption proves nothing.

If people ate up Godzilla as much as you say, it would have been a much bigger success, and we would have had American-made sequels by now.
Titanic is a good example of the kind of film we are talking about - a smash hit that people are absolutely in love with for awhile, but utterly disdain within a year or so and look back at in embarrassment. I did enjoy it, but couldn't care if I ever watched it again. It's also an example of what Hollywood calls a 'non-recurring phenomenon.' These are films that are successful beyond what any financial expert in the industry predicts; because their success is unpredictable, execs look at them nervously because their jobs depend on better forecasting. They also don't lend well to sequels.
You may think Transformers will be forgotten soon; I say it won't happen, with 20-plus years of history behind them with the toyline and various cartoon series. The movies have just jumped them up into even greater popularity. It's comparable to Star Wars, in that the appeal doesn't go away but goes to sleep for a while. Star Wars was dormant in the late 80's, but started to revive itself in the 90's with the new book series authorized by Lucasfilm, the 20th anniversary re-release & finally the prequels. Transformers was dormant for part of the 90's, but has re-awakened with a vengence.

Thanks for changing the title of your thread, by the way. That's more fair & balanced.

it was changed against my will, which sabotages the whole point. it was unnecessary and forum-nazistic. wanna tone the title down? fine. overbearing and ridiculously oppressive over a nonmalicious opinion, but just frikin fine.
how about something relevant to the topic. there is already a TF critique thread which mist posted. why not just close this thread although no personal insults or attacks are either stated or implied?

this forum is getting really really weak. ('this forum' being the sum total of KMC)

im requesting that this thread be closed.

Closed on Request.

did you forget something, sweetcheeks?

F*ck