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...or at least your version/view of God.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as a Mormon. Due to this many "Christians" attack me and say I don't believe in the God of the Bible. What they are really saying is that I do not believe that God is the same as what they believe him to be. I have decided to start a thread explaining my position on much of the "Christian" world's view of God. I have used quotes around "Christian" because I believe these people's view of Christianity and of God is not very Christian from my understanding, and they have stated that they do not believe I am in the same group as them, since I believe myself to be Christian, and they are not in the same group by their own statement I must assume they are not Christian in the sense I consider it to be. Ok, enough of my pontificating, here are a few of my grievances against many of the beliefs often held about God:

Pride is a sin to most "Christian" beliefs. God tells people to be humble and meek. Yet the most common version of God to most "Christians" is a proud deity that shows no humility whatsoever. I dislike a hypocrite.
Sins. Sins in most "Christian" beliefs are really only disobedience, and if God does not fall in line with his own commandments, that's fine, because he can be a dictator. Dictators do not follow the same rules as their subjects. Yet "Christians" seem to oppose dictators because dictators are most frequently evil men.
Heaven. What goes on there? Heaven is often some form of thing where God is sung praises to, and that is the purpose of heaven, nothing else. Sorry, check the pride bullet above.
Man is an insignificant creature whom was created for the mere purpose of self-gratification on the part of God in many "Christian" beliefs.
God sends people to Hell even though he could save them from it in most "Christian" beliefs.

There are more reasons, but the gist is I don't like many "Christian" views of God. If most non-Mormon "Christian" views of God were the accurate view, I would gladly enter Hell fighting against Him, I would not want to be associated with such a being. Hell for eternity would be better.

"Christians" are still good people often in my eyes, I just don't like their view of God.

Though I'm not Christian of any sort, it seems to me there's a logical hole in your "pride" argument.

Yes, Christians should be humble and meek, because they are servants of the Lord, subjugated to Him. But if God himself is indeed a perfect being, why would the exact same rules apply to Him. The perfection, as it were, should be spread for many to see...he isn't subject to the same flaws as humanity, and thus has no fear of wrongdoing in his outwardness.

Think of it in, say, medievil terms, and try arguing to a King that he should be as submissive as his subjects, not a strong leader.

Also, is the God of Christianity truly prideful? Or isit simply that people, proud of their God, ascribe those qualities to him? It seems to me like you're basing their interpretation of God off of personal biases, rather than referring to their actual Scriptures and teachings....a dangerous assumption to make.

So you claim to dislike their God but like the people themselves, but most (possibly all) of your perceived problems have to do with human interpretational differences, not God at all.

...

And beyond that, it is (ostensibly) the same God and some similar teachings. Shouldn't there be an attempt to reconcile those things and bring unity? Your post doesn't really seem like it is trying to accomplish anything positive, just widen the schism between yourself and others.

The problem I have with the Mormon faith is that they follow a blatantly obvious false prophet ie "Joseph Smith, Jr." the fact that Smith also became a political and military leader in the American Midwest is ground enough to doubt his Christian belief

Originally posted by Regret
...or at least your version/view of God.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as a Mormon. Due to this many "Christians" attack me and say I don't believe in the God of the Bible. What they are really saying is that I do not believe that God is the same as what they believe him to be. I have decided to start a thread explaining my position on much of the "Christian" world's view of God. I have used quotes around "Christian" because I believe these people's view of Christianity and of God is not very Christian from my understanding, and they have stated that they do not believe I am in the same group as them, since I believe myself to be Christian, and they are not in the same group by their own statement I must assume they are not Christian in the sense I consider it to be. Ok, enough of my pontificating, here are a few of my grievances against many of the beliefs often held about God:

Pride is a sin to most "Christian" beliefs. God tells people to be humble and meek. Yet the most common version of God to most "Christians" is a proud deity that shows no humility whatsoever. I dislike a hypocrite.
Sins. Sins in most "Christian" beliefs are really only disobedience, and if God does not fall in line with his own commandments, that's fine, because he can be a dictator. Dictators do not follow the same rules as their subjects. Yet "Christians" seem to oppose dictators because dictators are most frequently evil men.
Heaven. What goes on there? Heaven is often some form of thing where God is sung praises to, and that is the purpose of heaven, nothing else. Sorry, check the pride bullet above.
Man is an insignificant creature whom was created for the mere purpose of self-gratification on the part of God in many "Christian" beliefs.
God sends people to Hell even though he could save them from it in most "Christian" beliefs.

There are more reasons, but the gist is I don't like many "Christian" views of God. If most non-Mormon "Christian" views of God were the accurate view, I would gladly enter Hell fighting against Him, I would not want to be associated with such a being. Hell for eternity would be better.

"Christians" are still good people often in my eyes, I just don't like their view of God.


Wow



Regret, I admire everything you wrote and your initiative to speak your mind, especially against your fellow beleivers who judge you, and try to alienate you for your choice of religion.


I agree with you 100%

Originally posted by Regret
...or at least your version/view of God.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as a Mormon. Due to this many "Christians" attack me and say I don't believe in the God of the Bible. What they are really saying is that I do not believe that God is the same as what they believe him to be. I have decided to start a thread explaining my position on much of the "Christian" world's view of God. I have used quotes around "Christian" because I believe these people's view of Christianity and of God is not very Christian from my understanding, and they have stated that they do not believe I am in the same group as them, since I believe myself to be Christian, and they are not in the same group by their own statement I must assume they are not Christian in the sense I consider it to be. Ok, enough of my pontificating, here are a few of my grievances against many of the beliefs often held about God:

Pride is a sin to most "Christian" beliefs. God tells people to be humble and meek. Yet the most common version of God to most "Christians" is a proud deity that shows no humility whatsoever. I dislike a hypocrite.
Sins. Sins in most "Christian" beliefs are really only disobedience, and if God does not fall in line with his own commandments, that's fine, because he can be a dictator. Dictators do not follow the same rules as their subjects. Yet "Christians" seem to oppose dictators because dictators are most frequently evil men.
Heaven. What goes on there? Heaven is often some form of thing where God is sung praises to, and that is the purpose of heaven, nothing else. Sorry, check the pride bullet above.
Man is an insignificant creature whom was created for the mere purpose of self-gratification on the part of God in many "Christian" beliefs.
God sends people to Hell even though he could save them from it in most "Christian" beliefs.

There are more reasons, but the gist is I don't like many "Christian" views of God. If most non-Mormon "Christian" views of God were the accurate view, I would gladly enter Hell fighting against Him, I would not want to be associated with such a being. Hell for eternity would be better.

"Christians" are still good people often in my eyes, I just don't like their view of God.

I'm a Christian meaning that I follow the teachings of Christ which we all can read about in the Bible. If I told you what the Bible said about your points, would you believe that as being "Christian"?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Though I'm not Christian of any sort, it seems to me there's a logical hole in your "pride" argument.

Yes, Christians should be humble and meek, because they are servants of the Lord, subjugated to Him. But if God himself is indeed a perfect being, why would the exact same rules apply to Him. The perfection, as it were, should be spread for many to see...he isn't subject to the same flaws as humanity, and thus has no fear of wrongdoing in his outwardness.

Think of it in, say, medievil terms, and try arguing to a King that he should be as submissive as his subjects, not a strong leader.

Also, is the God of Christianity truly prideful? Or isit simply that people, proud of their God, ascribe those qualities to him? It seems to me like you're basing their interpretation of God off of personal biases, rather than referring to their actual Scriptures and teachings....a dangerous assumption to make.

So you claim to dislike their God but like the people themselves, but most (possibly all) of your perceived problems have to do with human interpretational differences, not God at all.

...

And beyond that, it is (ostensibly) the same God and some similar teachings. Shouldn't there be an attempt to reconcile those things and bring unity? Your post doesn't really seem like it is trying to accomplish anything positive, just widen the schism between yourself and others. I think that you have misunderstood some of what I wrote.

I believe the vision of Heaven, and God in that Heaven, portrayed by many "Christian" faiths is a place that can only be taken to be a sign of God's pride. I have had ministers describe Heaven to me as Man going to a place and singing praises to God day in and day out, and that is all it is meant to be in their belief system. Similar concepts are present in many "Christian" systems.

Any ruler must be of equal standing within the law that his subjects are. I disagree with the concept of a ruler above the laws he creates, deity or otherwise.

I do not care whether God is or is not bound by the laws he creates for man, if he tells Man to do one thing and does differently, he is a hypocrite.

I do not believe in unification through compromise on the nature of God.

I am not trying to unify "Christians". I am stating that God, as viewed by many "Christians", is a being that I would not support and often would oppose, and am trying to engender discussion of this fact.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
The problem I have with the Mormon faith is that they follow a blatantly obvious false prophet ie "Joseph Smith, Jr." the fact that Smith also became a political and military leader in the American Midwest is ground enough to doubt his Christian belief

You have read the Bible have you not? Most the prophets and leaders of the Old Testament were political and military leaders, is this also "ground enough to doubt Christian belief"?

Originally posted by ska57
I'm a Christian meaning that I follow the teachings of Christ which we all can read about in the Bible. If I told you what the Bible said about your points, would you believe that as being "Christian"? In differentiating between myself and others on being or not being Christian, my only statement is that if they consider me to be something different from them, and their belief that this makes me not a Christian, designates them as not what I am by their statement, not mine. If I am a Christian, and they state that they are not what I am, then they are not Christian. I do not designate anyone Christian or non-Christian, but I do consider myself Christian and as such if they claim to not be what I am, they must be not be Christian, at least from my position

Originally posted by Regret
In differentiating between myself and others on being or not being Christian

And that's what's wrong with most christians.

Originally posted by Regret


You have read the Bible have you not? Most the prophets and leaders of the Old Testament were political and military leaders, is this also "ground enough to doubt Christian belief"?

Excellent point. Let's stop listening to them all and call it a day, shall we?

31

..

A friend of mine once let Mormon door-to-door preachers come in one time (he was bored and it seemed like a good idea at the time). After a few basic leading questions, they jumped into the story of Mormonism's inception....which slightly less far-fetched than, say, Scientologists (which isn't saying much). Granted, traditional Christian myth would seem equally as crazy to an outsider ("...then God impregnated a virgin!" but that's exactly my point in both cases.

I've since heard similar stories out of Mormonism, so it wasn't a rogue occurrence.

Originally posted by Regret
In differentiating between myself and others on being or not being Christian, my only statement is that if they consider me to be something different from them, and their belief that this makes me not a Christian, designates them as not what I am by their statement, not mine. If I am a Christian, and they state that they are not what I am, then they are not Christian. I do not designate anyone Christian or non-Christian, but I do consider myself Christian and as such if they claim to not be what I am, they must be not be Christian, at least from my position

I am not basing my belief on what I say, or what others say, but what the Bible says. The Bible says if you confess with your lips and believe in your heart that Christ is Lord, then you are saved, and therefore truly a follower of Christ (Rom. 10:9). And there is no middle ground, either you are with Jesus or you're not. Either you stand firm in the scriptures, or you stand on your opinions. "Whoever is not with me is against me..." Matthew 12:30.

The way we can tell if we are "Christians" or not is if our beliefs match that of scripture, and if our lives show our faith being put into action -- not a religion, but a life-style...an intamite, loving relationship between you and Christ Jesus. That's what it means to be a Christian, to follow Christ.

Originally posted by ska57
I am not basing my belief on what I say, or what others say, but what the Bible says. The Bible says if you confess with your lips and believe in your heart that Christ is Lord, then you are saved, and therefore truly a follower of Christ (Rom. 10:9). And there is no middle ground, either you are with Jesus or you're not. Either you stand firm in the scriptures, or you stand on your opinions. "Whoever is not with me is against me..." Matthew 12:30.

The way we can tell if we are "Christians" or not is if our beliefs match that of scripture, and if our lives show our faith being put into action -- not a religion, but a life-style...an intamite, loving relationship between you and Christ Jesus. That's what it means to be a Christian, to follow Christ. My beliefs match that of scripture. I will not judge you not a Christian, unless of course you state you are something different than I, then you have decided that you are not Christian from my Biblical perspective.

The entire Bible only shows an example of an organized religion, not some lifestyle alone.

Finally, I am not discussing what it takes to be a Christian, I am discussing beliefs concerning God, and the fact that many views on God are such that I diametrically oppose these concepts of God, in this thread.

Originally posted by Regret
The entire Bible only shows an example of an organized religion, not some lifestyle alone.

What about the 10 Commandments? Does it not take a lifestyle to obey that? Christ's Sermon on the Mount, does it not take a lifestyle to obey that? Matthew 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

Christ commands us to live set-apart lives devoted to God, and He gives us many examples on how to live for God:

-Christ teaches us to not be angry with others (Matt. 5:21-26)
-Christ teaches us to not only live a life sexually pure but also sexually pure in our minds as well (Matt. 5:27-28)
-Christ teaches us what to do concerning taking oaths (Matt. 5:33-37)
-Christ teaches us to not resist an evil person, to turn the other cheek (Matt. 5:38-42)
-Christ teaches us to love our enemies (Matt. 5:43-48)
-Christ teaches us how to give to the needy (Matt. 6:1-4)
-Christ teaches us how to pray, and not just at church, but everywhere outside of church (Matt. 6:5-15)
-Christ teaches us to refuse materialism, and to gain eternal treasures instead. This tells us how to use our time, money, friendships, all kinds of things outside of organized religion inside church walls. (Matt. 6:19-24)

I could go on, but you get the point. The Bible is my standard of truth, my roadmap to life. There isn't one single area in life in which God hasn't spoken through the Bible. It is essential for any self proclaiming Christian to know the scriptures, in them are truth and life. "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth." John 17:17


Originally posted by Regret
Finally, I am not discussing what it takes to be a Christian, I am discussing beliefs concerning God, and the fact that many views on God are such that I diametrically oppose these concepts of God, in this thread.

Where your concepts of God come from is the question. All who are followers of Christ should trace all of their beliefs to the scriptures, anything else added or taken away is opinions; a lie compared to Biblical truths.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
The problem I have with the Mormon faith...

Then again, how many Mormons do you really have in the UK? What's your exposure to them, besides tv?

Originally posted by ska57
What about the 10 Commandments? Does it not take a lifestyle to obey that? Christ's Sermon on the Mount, does it not take a lifestyle to obey that? Matthew 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

Christ commands us to live set-apart lives devoted to God, and He gives us many examples on how to live for God:

-Christ teaches us to not be angry with others (Matt. 5:21-26)
-Christ teaches us to not only live a life sexually pure but also sexually pure in our minds as well (Matt. 5:27-28)
-Christ teaches us what to do concerning taking oaths (Matt. 5:33-37)
-Christ teaches us to not resist an evil person, to turn the other cheek (Matt. 5:38-42)
-Christ teaches us to love our enemies (Matt. 5:43-48)
-Christ teaches us how to give to the needy (Matt. 6:1-4)
-Christ teaches us how to pray, and not just at church, but everywhere outside of church (Matt. 6:5-15)
-Christ teaches us to refuse materialism, and to gain eternal treasures instead. This tells us how to use our time, money, friendships, all kinds of things outside of organized religion inside church walls. (Matt. 6:19-24)

I could go on, but you get the point. The Bible is my standard of truth, my roadmap to life. There isn't one single area in life in which God hasn't spoken through the Bible. It is essential for any self proclaiming Christian to know the scriptures, in them are truth and life. "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth." John 17:17 Hence: Originally posted by Regret
The entire Bible only shows an example of an organized religion, not some lifestyle alone. Lifestyle is an enormous part of Christian belief, but it is not the sole component. Some form of organization has been there forever, and Christ himself set up organization in his Church with the Twelve Apostles who replaced their members upon death until they were killed off, the seventy, and the Apostles organized the Churches following the resurrection, there has always been organization in the Biblical faith.

Here are Biblical references supporting an organization:

Originally posted by ska57
Where your concepts of God come from is the question. All who are followers of Christ should trace all of their beliefs to the scriptures, anything else added or taken away is opinions; a lie compared to Biblical truths. Are you referencing Revelation 22:18-19? You do realize that verse is subject to interpretation, and the Bible itself contradicts the interpretation you seem to be promoting? Look at Deuteronomy 4:2



Sorry, but if your interpretation of Revelation 22 were to hold, you must concede that Deuteronomy 4 voids all scripture following it. Thus, using your words, if Revelation interprets as you suggest, then one must assume that all the Bible following Deuteronomy must be "a lie compared to Biblical truths."

Also, there is nothing stating that God cannot continue to speak to man and God's word could not be recorded. Mormons have added nothing to the Bible, neither have they taken away, God has added what he would. If you would like to get technical, mainstream "Christianity" has taken much from the Bible and added even more to it.

Also, when was the Bible compiled? If the Revelations statement refers to the entire Biblical text, then the entire Bible was very much added to and taken away from at this point in history, which was much later than the time that Revelation was actually written. So, do you believe the Bible? It was added to and taken away from at the point of it's compilation.

The whole Bible, Old and New Testaments, follow along as one book, and that is amazing considering how many authors and languages and cultures and times at which it was written. God was behind it all, and it does not contradict itself. Deut. 4:2 is talking about not adding or subtracting any statutes or rules of the Law - which the Bible doesn't afterwords.

Christ came and re-told the whole point of the Law found in Deut. 6:5.

Originally posted by Regret
...or at least your version/view of God.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as a Mormon. Due to this many "Christians" attack me and say I don't believe in the God of the Bible. What they are really saying is that I do not believe that God is the same as what they believe him to be. I have decided to start a thread explaining my position on much of the "Christian" world's view of God. I have used quotes around "Christian" because I believe these people's view of Christianity and of God is not very Christian from my understanding, and they have stated that they do not believe I am in the same group as them, since I believe myself to be Christian, and they are not in the same group by their own statement I must assume they are not Christian in the sense I consider it to be. Ok, enough of my pontificating, here are a few of my grievances against many of the beliefs often held about God:

Pride is a sin to most "Christian" beliefs. God tells people to be humble and meek. Yet the most common version of God to most "Christians" is a proud deity that shows no humility whatsoever. I dislike a hypocrite.
Sins. Sins in most "Christian" beliefs are really only disobedience, and if God does not fall in line with his own commandments, that's fine, because he can be a dictator. Dictators do not follow the same rules as their subjects. Yet "Christians" seem to oppose dictators because dictators are most frequently evil men.
Heaven. What goes on there? Heaven is often some form of thing where God is sung praises to, and that is the purpose of heaven, nothing else. Sorry, check the pride bullet above.
Man is an insignificant creature whom was created for the mere purpose of self-gratification on the part of God in many "Christian" beliefs.
God sends people to Hell even though he could save them from it in most "Christian" beliefs.

There are more reasons, but the gist is I don't like many "Christian" views of God. If most non-Mormon "Christian" views of God were the accurate view, I would gladly enter Hell fighting against Him, I would not want to be associated with such a being. Hell for eternity would be better.

"Christians" are still good people often in my eyes, I just don't like their view of God. The principle crime of Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestants is that they believe that God has a vested interest in humanity on a personal level. Because of this disconnect between traditional Christianity and that of today is that when you center your religion around yourself, you forget the people around you. The "social gospel" of the late 19th century=gone. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"=gone. "When struck by your enemy, turn the other cheek"=gone. It is this ego-centric take on Christ that brought about the religious right.

I myself am an agnostic, and don't believe in organized religion, but I have no problem with Christians or theists of any stripe who dedicate their lives to something good without having the arrogance that God is somehow involved in their day-to-day.

Originally posted by Strangelove
The principle crime of Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestants is that they believe that God has a vested interest in humanity on a personal level. Because of this disconnect between traditional Christianity and that of today is that when you center your religion around yourself, you forget the people around you. The "social gospel" of the late 19th century=gone. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"=gone. "When struck by your enemy, turn the other cheek"=gone. It is this ego-centric take on Christ that brought about the religious right.

I myself am an agnostic, and don't believe in organized religion, but I have no problem with Christians or theists of any stripe who dedicate their lives to something good without having the arrogance that God is somehow involved in their day-to-day.

In addition, they also believe they alone, understand god.

Originally posted by ska57
The whole Bible, Old and New Testaments, follow along as one book, and that is amazing considering how many authors and languages and cultures and times at which it was written. God was behind it all, and it does not contradict itself. Deut. 4:2 is talking about not adding or subtracting any statutes or rules of the Law - which the Bible doesn't afterwords.

Christ came and re-told the whole point of the Law found in Deut. 6:5.

You have still avoided addressing the fact that the Bible was added to and taken away from to form the "Bible" of our current day in 367AD, the Book of Revelation was written at it's latest possible date 96 AD. Prior to 367 AD there was no Bible per say, only a collection of books. Also, given this, Revelation 22 must be referencing itself and not the entire Bible, as the Bible was not a single Book, but a set of books.

"in our obsession with original sin, we often forget original innocence"
{a famous saying of pope sumthin sumthin}

evangelicals are crazed nuts{sadly, the greater part of them in this case. there are exception, but not as much as humanity shud have} who will bring the world to its knees.

Originally posted by Regret

Pride is a sin to most "Christian" beliefs. God tells people to be humble and meek. Yet the most common version of God to most "Christians" is a proud deity that shows no humility whatsoever. I dislike a hypocrite.
Sins. Sins in most "Christian" beliefs are really only disobedience, and if God does not fall in line with his own commandments, that's fine, because he can be a dictator. Dictators do not follow the same rules as their subjects. Yet "Christians" seem to oppose dictators because dictators are most frequently evil men.
Heaven. What goes on there? Heaven is often some form of thing where God is sung praises to, and that is the purpose of heaven, nothing else. Sorry, check the pride bullet above.
God sends people to Hell even though he could save them from it in most "Christian" beliefs.


Since God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, he has a reason not to be humble. Also, the fact that God shows mercy is an example of humility: he is willing to admit that his creations are not perfect.

Which ones of the sins did God commit?

Heaven is a reward for those who were good in life.

It's up to people if they choose to be "saved" or not. But that does sound a little Born-Again-Christian, doesn't it?...