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Who takes this ALL-OUT fight?

Depends. I believe sidious does

Sidious may win, but not easy.

DE Sidious is good, but enough to tackle Naga Sadow and Exar Kun at the same time? Pfft.

Well then Janus, perhaps you would tell us what exactly Sadow is going to do against Sidious before he gets wtfpwned? Exar Kun at least has a change with his amulet blasts and sith magic. What is Sadow going to do? Cast illusions?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What is Sadow going to do? Cast illusions?

Throw a brick with the force and hit sidious in the back of the head.

I have no doubt that as the DLOTS he has considerable power. However, we don't really see anything from him, nor any of the other ancient sith of that era. More than likely, Ragos was the last powerful sith of the ancient sith.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DE Sidious is good, but enough to tackle Naga Sadow and Exar Kun at the same time? Pfft.

Well, bearing in mind that I am far from an expert on the Ancient Sith, according to Darth Sexy -- who is, in my opinion -- and others, the most acclaimed feat that Sadow can perform without his artifacts and amulet is hurling a brick. If that then, is the case, Darth Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith far outstrips the Ancient Sith Lord in terms of telekinesis, being able to hurl Senate pods the size of standard automobiles, many at a time. Furthermore, a pre-DE Sidious was able to use Force lightning to obliterate a veritable army of corrupt stormtroopers and then -- with one gout of lightning -- he rendered three powerful Sith acolytes (capable of summoning 'Darth Maul', who was in turn capable of challenging Darth Vader in swordsmanship and ability) to charred bone and ash before they could even defend themselves.

Sadow is a non-issue here, Janus, he's treading in the wake of beings with far greater raw power. Now, Kun, on the other hand, would be a problem. Perhaps he could pull a victory as Sidious crushes Sadow.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DE Sidious is good, but enough to tackle Naga Sadow and Exar Kun at the same time? Pfft.
He's the most powerful Sith in history and had way more in his arsenal than either of these two. What exactly will these two do to him?

The idea of trying to reason with you to about any match involving Sidious is a bit like trying to push a peanut across a continent during orbital bombardment; not my idea of a great time. Both of you absolutely adore him and think he's pretty much unbeatable. I've never seen either one of you honestly admit that Sidious may be outduelled by anyone.

That will be QUITE enough of that, Janus, because I've claimed on numerous occasions the following people would very well be capable of outdueling him: Luke, Mace, Yoda, possibly Jacen. For DE Palpatine? Luke is the only one of those who'd stand a chance.

I hardly appreciate that when I've made more than an effort to be polite to you in recent times whether it was returned or not. I've made my case more than once, whether you've seen it or responded to it or not. I

This is also an all out fight, not just a duel. If you want to put a good premise forth for these two, then do so. Again, my idea for an IM conversation between the three of us is till open, since that'll apparently work better.

I hope I didn't come across as harsh, but I felt that was uncalled for.

This is silly.

Escape, while I'm sure you're not "an expert" - not to claim that I am - after debating the material for almost two years I highly doubt that you're as ignorant to it as that last post made you seem, no offense intended.

And honestly, you guys act as if Exar Kun invented or created all of what made him great on his own. Whose Sith magic did he master, now? Whose artifacts and notes turned a "formidable student" into one of the most powerful Sith of all time in a matter of months? Whose amulet gave him the power to rip a massive Sith wyrm to shreds the first time he touched it? Seriously. I'm not saying that Naga Sadow alone could take out Sidious, or even Exar Kun. But given that he obviously has all the resources his successor had and much, much more, as well as several decades of added experience, his control and mastery over everything Exar knows is going to be formidable.

Now, assuming he's not going into battle naked, Sadow is going to have his armor, his sword, and the same amulet Kun wields, given that he is its original owner. So while DE Sidious himself is likely more powerful than either of these guys, I don't think he can handle both of them.

EDIT: And LS, I'm pretty sure NJO/DN Luke would manhandle DE Sids in a duel. Hell, Mace or Yoda are probably better swordsmen than him, if by a slight margin.

Originally posted by Faunus

Now, assuming he's not going into battle naked, Sadow is going to have his armor, his sword, and the same amulet Kun wields, given that he is its original owner. So while DE Sidious himself is likely more powerful than either of these guys, I don't think he can handle both of them.
Just commenting here: We're going to remember also that Palpatine has a collection of amulets, Sith swords, armor, lanvoroks, etc.
Even together, it's not outside of Palpatine's abilities to finish off one of them quickly and then focus on the other. I doubt he'd engage them with a saber right off-with his power and knowledge of the Dark Side, as well as a mastery of numerous higher level Jedi techniques that'd be totally alien to Kun and Sadow, he wouldn't need to.


I'd honestly doubt Luke would take it easily-the final duel they had together were as pure avatars of the light and Dark Side, so they weren't fighting at their normal stages. In sheer dueling abilities, DE Palpatine is a good margin above Yoda and Mace. The speed and technique he's described to display exceeds them by a good margin

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DE Sidious is good, but enough to tackle Naga Sadow and Exar Kun at the same time? Pfft.
Agreed.



Also, on the topic of Naga only throwing a brick, using the Force to dislodge a brick and hurl it at somebody's head, while swinging around a hundred pound sword and fighting someone who is roughly your equal in a sword fight is quite impressive. If my memory serves me correctly, none of the Jedi or Sith in the films ever toss objects at another while their dueling, Vader kinda does to Luke in ESB but Luke is greatly weaker than he is, so.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
The idea of trying to reason with you to about any match involving Sidious is a bit like trying to push a peanut across a continent during orbital bombardment; not my idea of a great time. Both of you absolutely adore him and think he's pretty much unbeatable. I've never seen either one of you honestly admit that Sidious may be outduelled by anyone.

I have to agree with Lightsnake, wholeheartedly, Janus. I have done my very best to be patient, understanding, and open-minded with you since your return to the forums -- whether you would like to accept that or not (I'm aware that at least one of your contemporaries on EoD applauded me for it). And yet you, someone who is smarter and older than me, can't summon the decency to return the favor? I'm terribly disappointed, and I expected better from you this time around, not to sound condescending.

You have said two things in that mini-rant that has admittedly annoyed me. Let me address the first one:



This is the culmination of our entire conflict; this statement is naked, vulnerable, and completely unsupported. We can debate it, if you like. I've stated -- on numerous occasions -- that Palpatine is far from invincible. I've said on many threads that he can and will be beaten by his hypothetical opponents. You, for some reason, do conveniently overlook them. In fact, several of these statements have been made on threads you have visited since your return. I've gone well out of my way to make people understand that Mace Windu's victory over Palpatine was not through devious manipulation but rather through Windu's superior skill and expertise with a blade. The blind fanboy that you paint me out to be wouldn't, Janus. Nor would he go out of his way to defend the Ancient Sith against SW LeGenD's tirade or argue relentlessly to the fools who believe Yoda was somehow bested by the Dark Lord through superior skill rather than a stalemate. If you want me to go through and link you to the threads in question to prove how wrong you are, say the word and I'll begin.

The second statement:



Then you have not been paying attention. Tell me, and I'll go through and link/quote my arguments. Likewise, Janus, would you like me to go through and list your attempts to downplay and degrade Sidious and his achievements? I'm quite certain that I can find a vast multitude of such statements from you.

The bottom line is this: I'm willing to discuss this, debate this, and prove to you that I'm not a Sidious-fanboy. Not, at least, as bad of one as you think. Are you? Because, all I've seen so far is me questioning your argument -- offering that Sadow's mightiest feat without Sith arcana and support was hurling a brick, and rightly telling you that Sidious is far more impressive -- and you offering this instead. Every time you make an anti-Sidious argument, if I don't think it's legitimate, I will counter it. I will argue it. And it will continue until you decide to a.) debate it. b.) discuss it. or c.) consent and move on. For every downplay, I'll just build it back up.

So do you really want to go there? Make crap up like this? Or -- for God's sake -- will you just do as Lightsnake has suggested so that we might just end it all in a mature fashion?

Your choice.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Agreed.



Also, on the topic of Naga only throwing a brick, using the Force to dislodge a brick and hurl it at somebody's head, while swinging around a hundred pound sword and fighting someone who is roughly your equal in a sword fight is quite impressive. If my memory serves me correctly, none of the Jedi or Sith in the films ever toss objects at another while their dueling, Vader kinda does to Luke in ESB but Luke is greatly weaker than he is, so.
I can name quite a few examples, actually.
It hardly equates to 'godly'

Is it?



Oh, none taken.

Debating what material? You mean the Ancient Sith? Not really. I've debated in favor of them a few times since you've been here, but it was primarily due to the information provided by Darth Sexy. As for the Ancient Sith vs. Palpatine, I argued it because Palpatine's feats outstripped those of the Ancient Sith (again, going by what I saw at the time). But I'm curious, Faunus. Was there something behind this statement that you want to tell me? A friend of mine gets the impression you've said that, hinting that I just fabricated a reason to contest Sidious's defeat.

In which case, I'd be a little disappointed, but I don't expect anything different.

Alright, everyone time out....all the posts here have been getting too close to the flame fests that usually accompany controversial topics like that.

Everyone's got legitimate issues, this can easily be worked out without anyone going for jugulars.

Originally posted by Gideon
But I'm curious, Faunus. Was there something behind this statement that you want to tell me? A friend of mine gets the impression you've said that, hinting that I just fabricated a reason to contest Sidious's defeat.I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If you managed to find some super secret, antagonistic message in what I said, I really can't help you.

Um, alright then.

We're also going to remember that we've never seen them carried on his person, so there's no reason to assume that he can actually use them in this fight.

I don't see this happening. They're not Kit Fisto or Agen Kolar.

What "high-level Jedi techniques" are going to be of any use whatsoever against two powerful Sith Lords? At best, Jedi abilities might be able to counter some of the few attacks Palpatine's Sith powers can't, but I doubt that. And given that Exar Kun shrugged off perhaps one of the most offensive light attacks there is - and from a Jedi Master who had centuries to perfect it - I don't see any practical application of Jedi techniques here.

A fairly inexperienced Luke with twenty years less experience manage to outduel him. As of DN, I can't see Sidious lasting more than a couple of minutes against him in a duel.

Originally posted by Faunus

I don't see this happening. They're not Kit Fisto or Agen Kolar.
And Palpatine won't be having to use a saber

I mean Jedi powers that're used offensively...Morichro, which took an ancient and powerful Dark Jedi out of commission for millenia, Malacia, which was enough to throw an experienced Jedi totally off balance, force light, etc. Th factor here is that the Sith will have absolutely no experience against a great number of what Palpatine has at his disposal, including the techniques he himself created

From someone who was
A. Trying to incapacitate him without any permanent harm
B. Far, far weaker than Palpatine.
If Palpatine goes for Exar in the force, it'll have a much greater effect than anything Odan-Ur could manage, this is hard to deny. Especially when Palpatine can seize for a direct kill, a technique he invented that involves focusing the power of his hate and anger on his opponents, ending with their deaths practically instantly. The only person he taught this technique was Luke.

Faunus, I will make myself clearer:
You recall when Ganner and Jacen become pure avatars of the light side? That's what happened to Luke and Palpatine-only with him on the other side, obviously. It's not sheer skill to sheer skill in their basic forms-when that last happened, Luke ended up flat on his back with a saber at his throat, and this is a Luke described as exceptionally skilled in the ways of the Force-to the extent of short circuiting an army of Balmorra's advanced BDs, and even moreso with the Jedi lightsaber-Dark Empire issue 1, I believe, substantiated further by the audio book.
There seems a bit of an inequality here, Faunus...Exar Kun couldn't even have had twenty years experience fighting, and he was studying the Dark Side for a total of six months...yet, his victories over far older and more experienced opponents are proof of his great power. Similar things happen with Luke, it's proof of Palpatine's inadequeacy, though I digress.

Experience means nothing at the state Luke and Jacen reached at those points,: to quote from Jacen, he 'was incapable of making mistakes', and if not for Luke having to fight for Leia and her unborn child, he might not have beaten Palpatine there.

Also, on the subject of artifacts and all; Palpatine definitely knows how to use a Sith Sword and has mastered the use of the deadliest items in his collection. I find the idea that he'd be incapable of using them skeptical to say the least

That's why I asked, rather than assumed. Just curious why you think I'd somehow inaccurately portray my knowledge on this subject.



Actually, DE Luke has performed some feats on par with his (much) older self. This is part of the reason I hate the comic series. His 'uberpowers' vanish without a trace after Palpatine dies and don't return until like, twenty years later.
\

LS:



Let's be brutally honest with each other here, LS. As Escape's noted above, the number one problem we have with each other isn't our overall personalities or our levels of education or even that we share different views on different topics.

The number one problem we have with each other is that I don't recognize Sidious as the best Sith Lord in the entire history of Sithdom simply because you and Escape believe it to be so badly. I mean really, that's what it comes down to. Most if not all of our major battles consist of what?

A. Anything negative said about Sidious that could possibly undermine his badassness.

B. Anything postive said about ancient Sith who pose a threat to Sidious' lofty position in your own hierarchy of How Things Should Be.

C. Anything negative said about the PT era Jedi who are the bar by which we measure Sidious' accomplishments since if they are complete weaklings, by association he must be too. Ergo, they must be sabergods and Force gods so he can look better by comparison.

Now, back to the above quoted line, when I say what I said above, I'm speaking from my own experience. True, I have been gone for over a year now and have only recently come back. But the bottom line is that I haven't seen you claim that any of the above could beat Sidious in any incarnation. This is my own viewpoint based on my own findings. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But quite frankly it's what I'm seeing, and have always seen since the two of you came to these forums.



You have been polite and easygoing outside of debate; same with Escape. I respect that. But in debate, I play by different rules. I leave my own easygoing, nice personality outside and I step into the ring with my serious, I'm-going-to-chew-your-argument-up persona on. You and I both enter the debating ring with three major weapons; conviction for our stance, our intellects, and our arguments. All three of those debating virtues have to be flawless, or the stance is subject to attack. This is the way of the debating jungle. As much as it would be nice if I could simply be pleasant and nice and respect everyone's opinion every single time, when I see a post so blatantly biased and lacking in proof:



... I simply have to bite into it. You have to admit how incredibly arrogant, biased, and impossibly flawed your initial post was. I mean, yes, you do have the conviction in Sidious (Perhaps more than you should. Even Escape thinks DE Sidious is in a tight spot with two DLotS attacking him) and I'm not about to attack your intellect because you're not stupid. But your argument is lacking the meat, and really in the end, that's where it's at. The idea that DE Sidious is so amazing that he can dust two Dark Lords of the Sith without breaking a sweat is clearly deluded with bias.



I'll be quite honest- I'm not quite sure if you want to debate via IM but I'll confess it's my least favorite method of debating. I'd sooner scribe it on a bathroom wall and take a picture before I'd debate Star Wars via IM. Now if you just want to shoot the shit, by all means...



No, actually you have every right to come back at me after my post. I have to admit I typed it sounding much ruder than I had intended. It was a hasty post and I was more than a bit tired at the time, and after reading your post well... I'll be honest, I expect much better from you. That kind of post strikes me as something a lesser debater would put forth.

Gideon:



I will be honest- my post came off sounding much more insulting than I had felt or intended. I suppose my reaction to LS' thoughts on the issue were hasty. And partly from my own frustration in arguing with you two in any topic involving Sidious. It gets drawn out into a lengthy and bitter battle that is never resolved, despite how much we all put forward. I simply wasn't ready for another merry-go-round with the both of you on whether or not Sidious is the best thing since the hyperdrive.

However, my above paragraph to LS stands; when it comes to debate, I am not going to roll over and play nice guy all the time. I won't badger you needlessly, and I won't vomit all over every thread in the forum trying to counter your opinions (Which is quite frankly, something I'm in the minority doing), but I reserve my right to attack your viewpoints and with all the jabs, rebuttals, and tools I possess. To do anything less would be insulting my own conviction in my own viewpoint, don't you agree?

You've seen lawyers argue, correct? Viciously ripping into witnesses, tearing each others' viewpoints apart, and basically skirting the edge of decency and politeness to get the point driven home.

Yet after the case? They all go and have coffee or drinks together, golf, talk about the kids, etc. They learn to divorce their debating selves from their normal selves. And this is a lesson you both would do well to learn. I'm not tearing into you guys because I'm a rotten person (Well, not somuch) or that I lack common decency; I'm doing it because it's game rules for debating. This is not some cloying college study hall debate, guys. No one in school cares enough about their cause to dedicate a fraction of the time we spend on things.



Actually, you've done a very good job so far as I've seen being more objective then you were when I first met you here, Escape, and I've seen you try and check even LS' bias before, for which I applaud you. I apologize if you somehow got caught in my general statement which really applies more to LS than it does to you. I think the point still remains that you are a very excitable Sidious supporter in a lot of cases, and the admiration you have for the character is seeping throughout your posts, whether you admit to it or not. I don't care one way or another, really. Sidious is a very good villain and one of the more likeable characters in the series. However, I've seen you get absolutely testy with me and exasperated because I wasn't recognizing Sidious' political machinations in a versus match.



If by downplaying Sidious and his "achievements" you mean not buying into the grandiose light in which you and LS illuminate everything he does, then yes, I admit to it. If by somehow being unimpressed by Sidious' might and duelling capability by comparison makes me a bad person, then so be it. I've seen both of you yawn and downplay entire hordes of Sith Lords and ancient Jedi to the point that even people who initially agreed with your stance began to counter your viewpoints.

Now, I'm running into the character limit. My final words on this: I'll stop pointing out the bias when I stop seeing it. You can do as you list at this point, I'm not going to fall into a debating trap when it comes to Sidious, as I know well where we all stand.

I see.

It all boils down to opinion, I guess, Janus. But, sadly, I don't see this situation ever ending unless we come to some sort of agreement on it, which is what I believe Lightsnake had in mind involving instant messaging. Not so much a debate as it is a discussion. And while I can agree that debates work better here than on MSN or AIM, discussions work better on them than here. Near-instant elaborations, multiple questions can be asked and answered without requiring paragraph after paragraph. Questions can be specific. So can answers. In ways that this forum -- nor any other -- doesn't allow.

You've made it clear on where you stand, as have we. I'm not going to criticise cutthroat debating. I've done it before. But it's needless. A truly accomplished debater can get the job done with charisma rather than rants, insults, and jabs. It's harder to do, but, there are those who have made their points without it. I've referenced Publius to you. Publius is -- hands down, by far -- the most skilled debater I've ever encountered. And he does it without resorting to the attacks that we have all used. Does that make him any less of a debater? I hardly think so. It makes him the more skilled one, which is why I've had my little epiphany and try to argue in a more civilized style.

That said, whereas you're more ruthless in this aspect, I'm more tenacious in another. This problem about Sidious isn't going to end on my part. If you, or Faunus, or Illustrious, or whomever think that Sidious isn't the most powerful/best/what have you, and it disagrees with me, I'll only stop when you/they consent or when you/they can prove me wrong. A simple 30 minute conversation could help solve a lot of potential arguments and sources of frustration for all of us.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
LS:



Let's be brutally honest with each other here, LS. As Escape's noted above, the number one problem we have with each other isn't our overall personalities or our levels of education or even that we share different views on different topics.

The number one problem we have with each other is that I don't recognize Sidious as the best Sith Lord in the entire history of Sithdom simply because you and Escape believe it to be so badly. I mean really, that's what it comes down to. Most if not all of our major battles consist of what

A. Anything negative said about Sidious that could possibly undermine his badassness.
can you honestly name a time in recent history when I really went off at this? The most I did, the most, mind you, was address what I saw as flaws in your argument on the subject.

I've argued it a LOT, Janus. And most times, you imply never respond to me after one or two initial posts, when the discussion is more than civil.

For starters, don't start making this into some fascist regime on the subject. Anything I can say I can back up purely with canon and textual evidence.

I can apply anything of the same right back to you and the Ancients, Janus, so, really, enough.

And again, Janus, you have been gone for over a year, now. Escape has said he has many forums where he can disprove this.
Have I changed, Janus? Yes or no? Honestly? Stop treating me like I'm the old LS.



If you want to disagree with me, do so. Do not say my argument lack in proof. Any stance I take on an issue, I assure you, can and will be backed up.



Janus, an issue is, since you've gotten back, you absolutely refuse to so much as hear my arguments, let alone respond to them. I made an initial post, I am more than capable of backing it up. It's gotten, I'll admit, a bit frustrating.
Is he in a tight spot here? Sure. However, you're just as biased as me on the opposite side and yes, you do belittle Palpatine a great deal, even to the point where he's not the best Sith Lord despite achieving the downfall of the Republic and Jedi Order.



My intention was simply so the three of us can talk and get everything worked out in a way that doesn't require any of us having school/work/whatever interfere. It's quicker and much more efficient



Well, I'll thank you for that much, at least. I apologize if the preceeding post comes off as a bit harsh as well.

Perhaps you're right in that I have tended to belittle the more Ancient characters more than a bit. If this is the case, I will work on it, but an issue is, KJA's writing makes them seem as nothing more than jokes. The reason I'm so much harder of them is because, simply, of how much support they get, and not just here on KMC from the old days, but many other places. After lots of double standards inherent in some arguments I've seen, a disregard for canon...

I'll admit the PT Jedi seem less impressive since unlike the Ancient figures you can actually see them on a scale. Compared to a comic where everything's open to your interpretation? Yes, I can see how the opinions form.
Now, to the matter of Palpatine, will political achievements help in a fight? No, I'll say that clearly.
However, by DE, you can't deny he's shown incredible amounts of power with showings unmatched by any other Sith, and in my argument with Faunus, I am backing other things up.

Will he be in trouble against two other of the most powerful Sith of all time? Yes. Will he lose? That's what's up in the air. Did I come off a bit poorly with the iniial post? Yes, I'll admit it, but you have to admit, you did the same, I do notice a great deal of underestimating characters who appears in the movies, Janus, and I can see how it originates. But really, when we get to points of casually writing off Yoda and Palpatine against Freedon Nadd, Naga or Exar without second thoughts, then you have to admit, you've displayed as much bias as me.

Two things I have to address to you uber debaters.
1. Why are you still calling Sadow a "powerful" sith lord? IF you're going to do that at the very least, quantify powerful. And if by powerful you mean hurling a brick at Kressh, then everyone's powerful.
2. I don't understand how you can argue that DE Sidious isn't the most powerful Sith in he SW Universe. You have various (you call them unsubstantiated) sources that do more than enough than put him over the top. Not to mention in DE, the ancient sith call him the greatest and the strongest of them all, so I don't see why there's this argument. I personally hate Sidious because of Lightsnake's adorable for him but LS and Escape have done more tha enough to prove Sidious' superiority, and this has yet to be disproven.

And escape, when I was arguing for the ancient sith, I was justifying their use of amulets and al that stuff, and I was referring to the POWERFUL ancient sith, not anybody after Ragnos' death.

What Sadow leaves behind intentionally, makes Exar Kun into the powerful Sith Lord he becomes. Sadow is also acknowledged as 'The Strongest of the Sith Lords' that currently live.

It's not enough to set him above greats of the future such as Revan, Bane, Dooku or Ruin on its own, but Sadow is powerful. Very much so.

I thought Darth Ruin was SS bullshit. Sure sounds like it.

Ruin was created by Abel G. Pena originally

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I can name quite a few examples, actually.
It hardly equates to 'godly'
I never said it equates to 'godly', I said it's "quite impressive".


Okay, if you can really name a few examples, please do so.

Off the top of my head: Yoda, Luke, Jacen, Mace and Corran-albeit many are the cream of the crop.

You need to provide actual examples of the deed, not list the characters who did it. Of course, that's not to say that they didn't, I just can't recall any specific instances.

He asked for the characters themselves, to be fair.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He asked for the characters themselves, to be fair.

Originally posted by darthsith19
If my memory serves me correctly, none of the Jedi or Sith in the films ever toss objects at another while their dueling, Vader kinda does to Luke in ESB but Luke is greatly weaker than he is, so.


When do Yoda, Luke and Mace do it?

Mace: In the Clone Wars adventures series, I believe. Yoda, in the same series. Luke's done so at several points, one of which I believe against Brakiss...and if rumors tell correct, he and Jacen launch a storm worth of debris at one another in their duel in Inferno.

And considering Carnor Jax is capable of it in Crimson Empire, I wouldn't put stock in it as a great display of power. Anakin, too, if you count the hundreds of metal shards he sends hurling at Durge in their fight.

To bad neither Yoda or Mace ever get into a lightsaber duel in the Clone Wars, so that can't be true.



I said movie characters, so what Luke does in NJO doesn't matter.


Anakin vs. Durge wasn't a saber duel.

Last I checked, we were discussing this in the midst of a battle, period. Considering Yoda is able to summon enough power to bring an avalanche on top of a hailfire droid when he's engaging an entire army of battle droids? More impressive, no?

And Sadow vs. Kressh wasn't a saber duel, either.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Last I checked, we were discussing this in the midst of a battle, period. Considering Yoda is able to summon enough power to bring an avalanche on top of a hailfire droid when he's engaging an entire army of battle droids? More impressive, no?

And Sadow vs. Kressh wasn't a saber duel, either.
Yup, but I also specifically said film jedi and Sith.


Yoda didn't. He dropped a piece of a cliff on a bunch of droids, but not while fighting others with his saber.


Correct, it wasn't a saber duel - instead of waving around weightless beams of energy, they were swinging huge swords that could have weighed as much as one hundred pounds. Using the Force while swinging those around is quite impressive.

I'm so sick and tired of this 'HUGE SWORDS' argument when I've never seen ANYONE, from Luke, to Satal Keto, to possessed Tavion, to anyone who handles those swords does so without any visible effort whatsoever. So, no, Darthsith, try a little harder when trying to find loopholes in thoroughly unimpressive feats. Again, Carnor Jax could do similar things, I don't doubt you'd claim he's subpar.

Yoda caused a massive avalanche, while fighting an entire army of advanced battle droids, and fighting a hailfire droid, dodging missiles and rapid blaster fire from all sides the entire time-and still manages to use the Force to drop half a mountainside on his enemies.

Why in the world do you guys keep adding Jacen in that equation? What exactly has he shown? This whole LOTF is very inconsistent.

Wrong, Yoda did those things but not while fighting with his saber, and it doesn't matter anyways, because this is a duel with sabers / sith swords, not with blasters.

When has Luke EVER fought with a sword?

The real question is, why on earth is Jacen considered top tier? Because he had his 5 year peace quest? I mean they're making him somewhat equal to Luke already, and this guy hasn't done a damn thing. On the level of Sidious? Give me a break. He looks like a scared, underaged female.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Wrong, Yoda did those things but not while fighting with his saber, and it doesn't matter anyways, because this is a duel with sabers / sith swords, not with blasters.
Erm, yes, Yoda was fighting his saber...what's he using to slice through the battle droids and deflect bullets? You're probably confusing separate instances.

I didn't say he did. I said he lifts one without any effort.

Hell, the Dark Underlord used Jar'Kai as a style to fight with two Ancient Sith Swords and if you've seen pictures of the man, he's positively corpselike and emaciated

The swords the Dark Underlord and Tavion used were absolutely nothing like the ones we saw Sadow and Kressh swinging around. The DU's blades looked like vibroswords from KotOR, and Tavion's was hidden in a staff; the sizes aren't even comparable to the older variants. Not to mention that the material the blades are crafted from are obviously completely different. The thinner Sith swords were made of metal, while the ancients' weapons looked crystalline.

And now, when did Luke ever lift a blade like Sadow's? That's not to say that he couldn't, but considering that after the decline of the ancient Sith we never see their brand of swords again, there'd be nothing impressive about him raising a blade akin to those of the Dark Underlord or Tavion.

Just for you, I'll check.


I was right, he jumps off the cliff, where they can't attack him, before using the Force to drop a huge chunk of rock and snow on them. Chapter 15, near the end, watch it.

Originally posted by Faunus
The swords the Dark Underlord and Tavion used were absolutely nothing like the ones we saw Sadow and Kressh swinging around. The DU's blades looked like vibroswords from KotOR, and Tavion's was hidden in a staff; the sizes aren't even comparable to the older variants. Not to mention that the material the blades are crafted from are obviously completely different. The thinner Sith swords were made of metal, while the ancients' weapons looked crystalline.
I wouldn't call a crystalline sword

And the DU's swords are described as Ancient Sith swords. Key word being 'ancient.' We've only got one picture of the Underlord and none of him in combat.

My point being, that the idea that they weigh hundreds of pounds is faulty at best when I can't think of any two depictions of Sith Swords that resemble the other.

At one point, Luke lifts up an ancient Sith sword to inspect it.

And Tavion's sword was Marka Ragnos's.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Just for you, I'll check.


I was right, he jumps off the cliff, where they can't attack him, before using the Force to drop a huge chunk of rock and snow on them. Chapter 15, near the end, watch it.
Considering I'm not remotely talking about the cartoon...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I wouldn't call a crystalline swordIt looks more like some sort of alchemically create crystal more than metal - it even shatters like it.

And I suppose it's impossible that there could be more than one kind of 'ancient' Sith sword. Seriously, the DU's sword, and the weapons of Sadow and Kressh. Not at all the same thing.

Hundreds of pounds? Hardly. I can see them being extraordinarily heavy compared to later melee weapons, but triple-digits is ludicrous.

You just said that. But you didn't provide a source or scan, which is what I'm asking for. Not that it matters, because it likely wasn't one resembling those in GAotS.

Yes, and it also slipped out of his scepter, which if you hadn't noticed isn't very thick.

It's very unlikely that every ancient sith used the exact same heavy sword..

Originally posted by Faunus
It looks more like some sort of alchemically create crystal more than metal - it even shatters like it.
I'm aware of the fact. I initially brought it up some time ago. It's also pretty much hard to get a proper idea as, again, they change with every single depiction-look at Freedon Nadd's swords that he gives to Satal...logically, he'd had gotten them from Naga..

We have no idea if that's actually one of the swords the DU wields. When that picture was done, it wasn't even known to be the DU.
And again: None of the depictions of the Sith swords are the same thing:
-GAOTS: Crystalline
DLOTS and TFNU: Long, broadsword/claymore blades. Same depiction in the weapons and technology guides
KOTOR- pike weapons with blades on both ends
There're probably more, but I can't really recall them.


Erm, I was the one saying just that...

I'll have to check with the person who owns the source, but I believe it was in a 'SW Gamer' story or from one of the Hyperspace articles.
And also, wouldn't a solid sword like the one pictured in The guide to Weapons and Tech be logically heavier than the ones in GAOTS?

Hardly that thick, no. Rather long and large. And Tavion lugs it about one handed, not compensating for extra weight when it's inside the scepter-and I doubt Marka Ragnos's personal weapon is a shoddy piece of craftsmanship.

Add to the fact that Tavion seems to be very fit and all, but hardly muscular or anything approaching superhuman.

Well, she's probably a Dathomiri, with emphasis on physical abilities, but strong enough to carry around a huge sith sword in a large scepter that Marka Ragnos wielded, one handed, with no strain if it's that heavy?

I'm sure with the whole alchemy detail, they took weight into account

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering I'm not remotely talking about the cartoon...
Sorry, I thought you were, my mistake.


Which issue of the Clone Wars Adventures comics did he do that thing your talking about in?

Don't have it on me, atm, but I think it's upwards of 5...

The incident I refer to specifically is mentioned in the NEC if that helps...under the Clone wars section

Naga and Exar PWnss!!!

I think the duo wins.