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who wins?

captain america ftw

as his opening song went...

"when captain america throws his shield, all those who oppose must yiled..."



anyway, he's stronger, faster, more skilled and his shield can block anything the punisher can shoot at him

Cap wins 10/10

This has happened a few times. Every time Cap wins.

Cap ftw.

Frank jumps over Cap and as he goes over his head, Frank shoots Cap.

cap wins all day

He wins everytime? You guys sure about that? Then people wonder why I say people dont know Punisher.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6277/capvspun1oz4.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9010/capvspun32gibn3.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6694/capvspun43qmzl8.th.jpg

Cap 8/10

Oh no! This fight is like Alf's worst nightmare!

Cap kicks the crippity CRAP outa Frank though.

Originally posted by jinzin
Cap kicks the crippity CRAP outa Frank though.

Franks put up a good fight but loses 8/10. I havnet fogotten about the Wolverine posts im just not in the mood for a post war.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Franks put up a good fight but loses 8/10. I havnet fogotten about the Wolverine posts im just not in the mood for a post war.

I'll be honest, neither am I.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'll be honest, neither am I.

Tell me about it.......

agree to disagree for the time being?

Originally posted by jinzin
agree to disagree for the time being?

Yeah .......for the time being...but hopefully I'll start collecting Wolverine then we'll really have a debate...MWHAHAHA!

Originally posted by Alfheim
Franks put up a good fight but loses 8/10. I havnet fogotten about the Wolverine posts im just not in the mood for a post war.
or maybe you don't have a response that does not make you sound foolish

Originally posted by jinzin
agree to disagree for the time being?
why would you do that?

It insane to think Captain America could take a majority from wolverine.........

For precisely the reason that Alf inadvertantly brought up.. he doesn't read enough Wolverine to properly debate him.. maybe after I put up the proper respect thread Alf will give him due his proper respect.. probably not.. but MAYBE.. Just MAYBE.

Originally posted by Alfheim
He wins everytime? You guys sure about that? Then people wonder why I say people dont know Punisher.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6277/capvspun1oz4.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9010/capvspun32gibn3.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6694/capvspun43qmzl8.th.jpg

Cap 8/10
funyn thing about those scanns is the fact that punisher was able to stop capts shield with a gun..........which is rediculous seeing as how capts shield has gone through guns like it was it job............not to mention objects far stronger then a gun.........

Cap has enough skill to know how to throw his damned shield.. I highly doubt he was tossing it at Frank with the intention of splitting him in two much less his gun.

Originally posted by jinzin
Cap has enough skill to know how to throw his damned shield.. I highly doubt he was tossing it at Frank with the intention of splitting him in two much less his gun.
yes so those scanns are rather useless to alf since capt would not be holding back to the exstent he was in a forum battle.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
or maybe you don't have a response that does not make you sound foolish

Hey you read loads of wolverine comics but your still an idiot.



Originally posted by Battlehammer
why would you do that?

It insane to think Captain America could take a majority from wolverine.........

Eventhough I never said that.....see what I mean about you.

Originally posted by jinzin
For precisely the reason that Alf inadvertantly brought up.. he doesn't read enough Wolverine to properly debate him.. maybe after I put up the proper respect thread Alf will give him due his proper respect.. probably not.. but MAYBE.. Just MAYBE.

Hey dont try to make out like im not fair, ok? I admit that I have not read that many wolverine comics but regardless you are a pain to debate with. You're a pain to debate with because you cant even understand context and try and tell me some **** like im changing my argument. You said that Cap vs Wolverine in their second battle was a good showing for both characters and now all of a sudden now your telling me that its a good showing for Wolverine. How the hell does that look to you, but you're telling me some **** like maybe or probably not.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
funyn thing about those scanns is the fact that punisher was able to stop capts shield with a gun..........which is rediculous seeing as how capts shield has gone through guns like it was it job............not to mention objects far stronger then a gun.........

So it could be argued that its PIS that it didnt go through the gun but Frank was still fast enough to block it.

Originally posted by jinzin
Cap has enough skill to know how to throw his damned shield.. I highly doubt he was tossing it at Frank with the intention of splitting him in two much less his gun.

So Cap ahs thrown his shield at other people without the intention of splitting them in two, why is it all of a sudden a good showing for them but not for Frank?

Maybe maybe not, depends on the situation, under most circumstances CIS would come into play.. I highly doubt he'd be hittin Frank that hard with his shield.

Originally posted by jinzin
Maybe maybe not, depends on the situation, under most circumstances CIS would come into play.. I highly doubt he'd be hittin Frank that hard with his shield.

Well Beast has caught his shield...nobody said anything about Cap not trying to take his head off. Why is it I can give you a hundred examples of people that Cap has thrown his shield at without the intention of killing them but that excuse what not be made?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Hey you read loads of wolverine comics but your still an idiot.





Eventhough I never said that.....see what I mean about you.

Im an idiot? Dude you have the msot rediculous arguement msot of the time and are seen by most as the biggest joke on KMC next to master bruce........




Really you clearly implied it with your posts..........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Im an idiot? Dude you have the msot rediculous arguement msot of the time and are seen by most as the biggest joke on KMC next to master bruce........




Really you clearly implied it with your posts..........

No I didnt. Go away?

DD has deflected his shield with a billy club before, just putting that out there...

Originally posted by Alfheim
No I didnt. Go away?
yes you clearly did.

Capt pritty dam every time unless one sided prep on punisher side.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Really you clearly implied it with your posts..........

Really?

Originally posted by Battlehammer


how the hell can capt beat a 100% wolverine the majority.

Originally posted by Alfheim


I was thinking 5 each but I dont want to discuss it because it seems im having communication problems.

....and it looks like im having communication problems here. Yes as you can clearly see I said that Cap would win the majority. You done now?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Really?





....and it looks like im having communication problems here. Yes as you can clearly see I said that Cap would win the majority. You done now?
that still rediculous to think capt could take 5 each from wolverine.......honestly.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
that still rediculous to think capt could take 5 each from wolverine.......honestly.

Yeah well its not a Cap vs Wolverine thread im just making the point that even if I read every single Wolverine issue I probably still wouldnt have a decent debate with a Wolverine fan because they way in which you debate is irritating.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah well its not a Cap vs Wolverine thread im just making the point that even if I read every single Wolverine issue I probably still wouldnt have a decent debate with a Wolverine fan because they way in which you debate is irritating.
your far more annoying trust me.



also the day you read every wolverine comic is the day I would leave KMC.


The problem with you is you have read like 4 wolevrine comics in your life and you try and debate against him vs people who owbn almost all his apperances. Not to mention both me and jinzin have far more knowledge about capt then you likly will ever have about wolverine.





capt beats punisher senseless. Punishe rmay get one win due to CIS

alf it must suck when your only real help is master bruce and kingkam.

Goodbye.

see ya have fun.









punisher loses due to the fallowing.

He slower.
weaker.
less stamina
Less skill
not as agile
slower reflexes
not as accurate
not as durable
Not as experienced.

Originally posted by Battlehammer


The problem with you is you have read like 4 wolevrine comics in your life and you try and debate against him vs people who owbn almost all his apperances. Not to mention both me and jinzin have far more knowledge about capt then you likly will ever have about wolverine.



Same could be said of you, friend.

At least Alf can stand up and say "Hey, I don't know S*** about this guy, so maybe I'm being bias", unlike many other posters on this forum.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Same could be said of you, friend.

At least Alf can stand up and say "Hey, I don't know S*** about this guy, so maybe I'm being bias", unlike many other posters on this forum.
the same really can't be said about me though I don't tend to go into debates with characters I dont read........

same reasons you will never see me in debates of people above mid tier other then rare occassions since I don't read any characters above mid tier unless there x-men.


also alf does not say that. Alf argues with you and once he called out he uses that lame excuse and then keeps argueing with you......

you act like he being a good guy by saying that, but he not. He just looks dumber for saying it and still argueing with people.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
the same really can't be said about me though I don't tend to go into debates with characters I dont read........


Yes you do capt.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Yes you do capt.
really please enlighten me when I debate about a character I don't know please. Come on just name them. It should be easy since you think I do it all the time.


can't wait for your answer

I assume Cap. Though I think The Punisher has a chance. He is a really bad mofo. Also the cooler character...which must count for something.

Yes im not an expert on wolverine and im also willing to listen to what people say about the character, but that doesnt seem to be the problem. The way I see when I do seem to have an understanding of the facts it seems sometimes the way certain people debate can be infuriating for example capt didnt you just accuse me of saying that I said that Cap could take the majority against Wolverine, didnt I have to post out were I cleary said im giving them 5 each?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I assume Cap. Though I think The Punisher has a chance. He is a really bad mofo. Also the cooler character...which must count for something.

Bardock you belong in the GDF, what did I tell you about coming down here!

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes im not an expert on wolverine and im also willing to listen to what people say about the character, but that doesnt seem to be the problem. The way I see when I do seem to have an understanding of the facts it seems sometimes the way certain people debate can be infuriating for example capt didnt you just accuse me of saying that I said that Cap could take the majority against Wolverine, didnt I have to post out were I cleary said im giving them 5 each?



Bardock you belong in the GDF, what did I tell you about coming down here!

so I made a slight mistake. I debate with a lot of people. I can't remeber every thing they say. I new it was rediculous. 5/5 is rediculous given there abilties capt lucky to win once.........


your not willign to listren actaully. Uve made it pritty dam clear you hate every thign about wolverine and you have whined constantly about him.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
so I made a slight mistake. I debate with a lot of people. I can't remeber every thing they say.

Yeah but you have the habit of doing stuff like that...and not just you.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

I new it was rediculous. 5/5 is rediculous given there abilties capt lucky to win once.........

You know what maybe it is, but this is a Cap vs Punisher thread!

Originally posted by Battlehammer

your not willign to listren actaully. Uve made it pritty dam clear you hate every thign about wolverine and you have whined constantly about him.

Yeah I am actually im probably one of the most reasonable people on this forum, yes thats right...a little hotheaded but yes reasonable.

Captain America 8/10.

He's everything Punisher is, but better IMO, Frank pulls off a few hard fought wins though.

Originally posted by Citizen V
Captain America 8/10.

He's everything Punisher is, but better IMO, Frank pulls off a few hard fought wins though.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Citizen V
Captain America 8/10.

He's everything Punisher is, but better IMO, Frank pulls off a few hard fought wins though.

I agree with that. Both wins will be bloody, and he'd probably still be in the hospital afterwards, but 2 wins sounds about right.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but you have the habit of doing stuff like that...and not just you.



You know what maybe it is, but this is a Cap vs Punisher thread!



Yeah I am actually im probably one of the most reasonable people on this forum, yes thats right...a little hotheaded but yes reasonable.

not really. You have a very bad habbit of it actaully.......

You reasonable

dude was that some sort of joke?


Man I wish I could see through your eye and see how you few your self. You and kingkam crack me up.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
not really. You have a very bad habbit of it actaully.......

You reasonable

dude was that some sort of joke?


Man I wish I could see through your eye and see how you few your self. You and kingkam crack me up.

Ok fine...you done now?

Originally posted by Citizen V
Captain America 8/10.

He's everything Punisher is, but better IMO, Frank pulls off a few hard fought wins though.
I don't see it with out cis. Captain america fighting his hardest is jsut to good for frank. I could see frank taking 1 due to being crafty

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok fine...you done now?
don't know how to react to this lol

Originally posted by Battlehammer
don't know how to react to this lol


You could drop it?

Originally posted by Alfheim
You could drop it?
fine, but be warnned.................I like water melons?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
fine, but be warnned.................I like water melons?

weirdo.

Originally posted by Alfheim
weirdo.
ancorman come on people .

Originally posted by Battlehammer
ancorman come on people .

Will Ferrel?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Will Ferrel?
ya lol

Captain America wins. Probably damn near every time.

Bullets don't move faster because the Punisher shoots them. Anything Captain America doesn't feel comfortable dodging can be blocked with his shield - grenades included.

Up close, the Punisher has next to NO chance. Captain America is much faster, stronger, and much more skilled.

I'll give the Punisher one outta ten. For that one time that the Punisher aims for a civilian and Captain America decides to take the bullet FOR him. Oh, and that assumes that Sharon Carter shows up to blast Steve in the gut a few times directly afterwards.

.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well Beast has caught his shield...nobody said anything about Cap not trying to take his head off. Why is it I can give you a hundred examples of people that Cap has thrown his shield at without the intention of killing them but that excuse what not be made?
What the hell are you talking about?

Originally posted by Soljer
Captain America wins. Probably damn near every time.

Bullets don't move faster because the Punisher shoots them. Anything Captain America doesn't feel comfortable dodging can be blocked with his shield - grenades included.

Up close, the Punisher has next to NO chance. Captain America is much faster, stronger, and much more skilled.

I'll give the Punisher one outta ten. For that one time that the Punisher aims for a civilian and Captain America decides to take the bullet FOR him. Oh, and that assumes that Sharon Carter shows up to blast Steve in the gut a few times directly afterwards.

.

*sigh*

"Weve been through this, this is how Punisher is more dangerous with his guns than other people.

1. His reflexes are faster. Therefore he will pull the trigger more quickly than other people. Imagine 2 atheletes. Athelete A is a bullet from the Punishers gun. Athelete B is a bullet from less trained person gun. When the gun is fired to start running athlete A would have travelled further because his reaction time is faster.

2. With his experience Punisher can predict where they are likely to go before they get there.

3. He combines 1 and 2

4. Combining 1 and 2 and depending on the terrain if there is limited space Punisher could fill an area with bullets and even if they are able to dodge one or two bullets they wont be able to dodge them all.

5. Heroes may see bullets in slow motion but there is still need to be careful. They cant catch bullets Spiderman tried it and got a bullet through his hand."


Originally posted by Alfheim
He wins everytime? You guys sure about that? Then people wonder why I say people dont know Punisher.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6277/capvspun1oz4.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9010/capvspun32gibn3.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6694/capvspun43qmzl8.th.jpg

Cap 8/10

Originally posted by Alfheim

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4964/punddbeat1lu9.th.jpg
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9633/punddbeat2gl4.th.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6809/punddbeat3wu8.th.jpg

Frank 7/10, granted Cap has all the advantages, but Frank has the determination and ruthlessness to pull off some wins. Frank can take a beating and keep going even harder and he is one of the dirtiest players in the game as soon as cap makes one mistake or shows a soft spot frank will capitalize and kill him...end of story, so says jgiant.

"Granted, Cap has all the advantages, but I'll give Punisher the hefty majority because I'm a fanboy."

.

Originally posted by jgiant
Frank 7/10, granted Cap has all the advantages, but Frank has the determination and ruthlessness to pull off some wins. Frank can take a beating and keep going even harder and he is one of the dirtiest players in the game as soon as cap makes one mistake or shows a soft spot frank will capitalize and kill him...end of story, so says jgiant.

thats a good point...about Frank fighting dirty, he would have no qualms about landing a good nutshot on Cap

Originally posted by Soljer
"Granted, Cap has all the advantages, but I'll give Punisher the hefty majority because I'm a fanboy."

.

Or "i'll give Cap 10/10 because i'll just ignore evidence that Punisher isnt just a guy with a gun."

I don't agree that cap walks away from this fight 10/10.. but I'm kinda doubting that's the reasoning Soljer's using to determine Cap as the winner here.

Originally posted by jgiant
Frank 7/10, granted Cap has all the advantages, but Frank has the determination and ruthlessness to pull off some wins. Frank can take a beating and keep going even harder and he is one of the dirtiest players in the game as soon as cap makes one mistake or shows a soft spot frank will capitalize and kill him...end of story, so says jgiant.

Except Frank has already been shown to have a lot of respect for Cap and what he represents so I doubt he would go for a kill.

Its not like Cap hasn't fought guys who are going for the kill against him before either, he did after all fight in WWII and I don't think the Germans were playin...

Originally posted by Hercules
Except Frank has already been shown to have a lot of respect for Cap and what he represents so I doubt he would go for a kill.



Yeah and hes also threatened to kill him as well, obvoulsy the writer who decided to show Frank take a beating for Cap obvoulsy didnt read this issue. Writers just come along and just **** characters up.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and hes also threatened to kill him as well, obvoulsy the writer who decided to show Frank take a beating for Cap obvoulsy didnt read this issue. Writers just come along and just **** characters up.

Or alternately you could say the writer who wrote him threatening to kill Cap was ****ing him up?

After all Frank wants to take out villians not heroes and threatening to kill someone isn't the same as actually attempting or doing it, otherwise I would be doing life myself right now!

Again, its not like Cap hasn't fought people who have gone for the kill before, I don't see that as a reason for Punisher to take a majority.

I would go with Cap 8/10.

Punisher > Captain America

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Punisher > Captain America

In what universe?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Or "i'll give Cap 10/10 because i'll just ignore evidence that Punisher isnt just a guy with a gun."

Punisher IS just a guy with gun(s).

.

Originally posted by Hercules
In what universe?

I have the right to believe mhm

Originally posted by Hercules
In what universe? What If?

Originally posted by jinzin
What If?



Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl I have the right to believe

Indeed you do, even if you are deluisional!

I have never seen a strip, a show or even pictures of Captain America in action

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
I have never seen a strip, a show or even pictures of Captain America in action

I've never seen a strip show with Captain America in it either!

Originally posted by Hercules
Or alternately you could say the writer who wrote him threatening to kill Cap was ****ing him up?


No because that incident happened first.

Originally posted by Hercules

After all Frank wants to take out villians not heroes and threatening to kill someone isn't the same as actually attempting or doing it, otherwise I would be doing life myself right now!


True but I think he would kill Cap but he would be very reluctant. I think there have been times when Frank was going to kill DD but decided against it...but he was on the verge.

Originally posted by Hercules

Again, its not like Cap hasn't fought people who have gone for the kill before, I don't see that as a reason for Punisher to take a majority.

I would go with Cap 8/10.

I agree.




Originally posted by jinzin


But since you want to be a prattling ****, ok let's do this:




You have a serious attitude problem. When you learn to calm down then we can debate. You're rude, you dont understand simple concepts like context when debating, sort yourself out. You need to calm down there was no excuse for a response like that, there was nothing special about the post and it was uncalled for. Furthermore you didnt even understand what im saying I dont have a problem with Wolverine taking shots from bricks all I was saying is that its double standards. You misunderstood what I said.......AGAIN.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No because that incident happened first.

It doesn't always follow that because it was written first that the first writer had a better grasp on the character than the writer who wrote his respect for Capt and his reluctance to hurt him or fight him though.

I like the respect Angle and Frank taking a beating from Capt and not raising a hand against him, showed how tough he was and the mental determination he had imo.

I would take that version of Frank over the psycho, you push me and I will kill you version anyday of the week, I also see how as a vet himself he would have a lot of respect for Capt and what he stood for.

But this is all my opinion, I know others hated the whole deal.

Originally posted by Hercules
I've never seen a strip show with Captain America in it either!

shock

I think Cap would take it 8 or 9/10, he's physically superior, and has fought guys better than punisher...

punisher is a well trained soldier, but he's still human... in our world he'd kick ass, but this is marvel, being well trained just doesnt cut it against the big boys... his arsenal alone might help him somehow (a well placed grenade etc), and cap's shield can't cover his whole body, so i'm sure frank can get in a well placed shot or two... other than that, cap's superior skills and physique should see him through imo...

battlehammer, stop trying to incite people, it won't be tolerated... alfheim, please calm down and stop making little comments about people... it does nothing but give an incredibly bad impression of yourself...

Originally posted by pr1983
alfheim, please calm down and stop making little comments about people... it does nothing but give an incredibly bad impression of yourself...

Did you actually see why I said that? So let mle get this straight he tells me im a prattling little **** and your telling me that im giving a bad impression? Ok could you please explain how?

Harsh words and calling names is never the solution

Originally posted by Alfheim
weirdo.

don't make fun of others....it's not nice.

Originally posted by masterbruce
don't make fun of others....it's not nice.

That was a joke. Cant you see we were just joking around then?

Originally posted by Hercules
It doesn't always follow that because it was written first that the first writer had a better grasp on the character than the writer who wrote his respect for Capt and his reluctance to hurt him or fight him though.

I like the respect Angle and Frank taking a beating from Capt and not raising a hand against him, showed how tough he was and the mental determination he had imo.

I would take that version of Frank over the psycho, you push me and I will kill you version anyday of the week, I also see how as a vet himself he would have a lot of respect for Capt and what he stood for.

But this is all my opinion, I know others hated the whole deal.


I just remebered Frank has fought Cap on two other occassion in one ocassion it was a proper fight. So yeah it is inconsistent with his character. Frank moved from threatening to kill him and actually phsicailly fighting him to letting Cap beat him up. Obvoulsy it was bad writing.

DD last fight with punisher was an ennis comic..........and it was the same sisue Logan drnak acid liek that makes sense........

Logan was not KOed by the deer.......go read the dam issue

Originally posted by Alfheim
You have a serious attitude problem.
No i don't... I was being completely civil with you and then you tried to start some sort of ridiculous nonsense with me for no reason... Attitude problem? Hardly.. and Alfheim problem? Definitely.. lol

Originally posted by Alfheim
When you learn to calm down then we can debate.

I was perfectly calm when I owned your ass last night.. I had no rise in me whatsoever.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You're rude,

Nope, wrong again.. I simply treat people how they treat me.. you want to throw yourself into an argument with me when there's no call for it? Fine, but don't complain when I fire back.

Originally posted by Alfheim
you dont understand simple concepts like context when debating,

Oh please, when do I EVER represent anything out of context? Unlike you who brings up opinions I made years ago under different circumstances with a different amount of knowledge as if it's a suitable point NOW.

Originally posted by Alfheim
sort yourself out. You need to calm down there was no excuse for a response like that,
There's no excuse for a response like yours getting all riled and attacking Wolverine's character when he had nothing to do with this debate.. don't be a hypocrite...

Originally posted by Alfheim
there was nothing special about the post and it was uncalled for.

I disagree.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore you didnt even understand what im saying I dont have a problem with Wolverine taking shots from bricks all I was saying is that its double standards. You misunderstood what I said.......AGAIN.

Did I or are you backtracking again because I caught you in another heap of bullshit? AGAIN...


You want to talk about how I don't understand concepts and yet you can't even follow your own trains of thought or understand how to convey them properly. You're the one using double standards here.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
DD last fight with punisher was an ennis comic..........and it was the same sisue Logan drnak acid liek that makes sense........

Er I dont think it was you know. You also said the second fight with Wolverine was Einnis it wasnt.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Logan was not KOed by the deer.......go read the dam issue

I was arguing it was PIS anyway....you missed the point.

Oh yeah this Frank having a distaste for hitting the Punisher.

http://img311.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thepunisherwarjournal66pariah5.jpg

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er I dont think it was you know. You also said the second fight with Wolverine was Einnis it wasnt.
it was. Hell it was like top 10 worst comics ever it not the worst.

really what was there second fight?

Originally posted by jinzin


Did I or are you backtracking again because I caught you in another heap of bullshit? AGAIN...


You want to talk about how I don't understand concepts and yet you can't even follow your own trains of thought or understand how to convey them properly. You're the one using double standards here.

See what I mean? Ok do me favour take a deep breath....im gonna try and calm down.....please read my last post and see if im backtracking or you took what I said out of context.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
it was. Hell it was like top 10 worst comics ever it not the worst.

really what was there second fight?

Werll considering the second fight between Wolverine wasnt Einnis..im gonna take what you said with a pinch of salt.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Heres the whole Wolverine fight. Third tier my ass.

http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherwarjournal007126yn.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherwarjournal007134jd.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherwarjournal00714159jt.jpg

Originally posted by Alfheim
Werll considering the second fight between Wolverine wasnt Einnis..im gonna take what you said with a pinch of salt.

I thought there second fight was the one when spiderman DD and wolverine went after punisher........I dident realize there was fight before then.


so now Im a lier? becuase I did nto realize they had a fight inbetween the two I know about. well actaully they had another fight after then last ennis one and wolverine curf stomp punisher

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I thought there second fight was the one when spiderman DD and wolverien went after punisher........I dident realize there was fight before then.

Well thats not it then is it.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

so now Im a lier? becuase I did nto realize they had a fight inbetween the two I know about. well actaully they ahd another fight after then last ennis one and wolverine curf stomp punisher

Well look you were wrong anyway....ok?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well thats not it then is it.



Well look you were wrong anyway....ok?
I was only wrong in the sense that I dident realize they had another fight.......but I was right in the sense that the DD fight you are referring to is from ennis.

when punisher knocks DD pout a window..........

Also how in hell do you call that fight a win for punisher........Logan was completely fine.........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I was only wrong in the sense that I dident realize they had another fight.......but I was right in the sense that the DD fight you are referring to is from ennis.

when punisher knocks DD pout a window..........

No thats not it.......Punisher doesnt knock DD out of a window.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
Punisher vs DD

http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6057xo.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6069kr.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6074yb.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6089is.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6095mh.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6116zo.jpg
http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6120vi.jpg
http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6139lz.jpg



Originally posted by Battlehammer
Also how in hell do you call that fight a win for punisher........Logan was completely fine.........

I didnt say it was a win. Do you see what I mean about you guys. The point was that he wasnt stomped by Wolverine

Originally posted by Alfheim
See what I mean? Ok do me favour take a deep breath....im gonna try and calm down.....please read my last post and see if im backtracking or you took what I said out of context.

Dude I'm not riled NOR am I bringing ANYTHING up out of context.. and you as usual lack the proof.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No thats not it.......Punisher doesnt knock DD out of a window.....
man you should really make your self more clear when you bring fights up

you said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in there alst fight by ennis.



and Im pritty sure the ennis fight came after this but im not sure. They were both around the same time.


Not to mention DD stomp frank through out that whole arc......punisher did good in like one encounter.

but punisher would be stomped by Logan and was in there last fight and Logan was trying not to kill punisher...........

Originally posted by jinzin
Dude I'm not riled NOR am I bringing ANYTHING up out of context.. and you as usual lack the proof.

OK how about this could you PLEASE try and actually read my post concerning it and then come to a conclusion? Pretty please with sugar on top.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
man you should really make your self more clear when you bring fights up

you said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in there alst fight by ennis.

No I didnt.......see? Can you see whY I get annoyed sometimes?


Originally posted by Alfheim


What like the last fight were Frank beat up DD badly and dislocated DDs arm? Didnt Frank have a non Einis fight with Wolverine were he did pretty well considering in fact Punisher hit him more times than Wolverine did.




Originally posted by Alfheim


Not to mention DD stomp frank through out that whole arc......punisher did good in like one encounter.

Yes but why should that be the case when:


1. Punisher has humiliated Nightcrawler and Spiderman.
2. Has shot Spiderman.
3. Nearly killed DD.
4. Deflected DD's billyclub on more than one occasion.
5. Evaded a suprise attack from Cap and deflected and caught his shield with his feet.
6. Hell Frank beat the Paladin, Paladin beat Cap...sure the circumstances were different but it was still a good feat.

DD will beat Frank for the majority but Frank getting stomped is like Apoc ducking from a table. Looking at Franks showings written properly he should not get stomped by DD.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
but punisher would be stomped by Logan and was in there last fight and Logan was trying not to kill punisher...........

Dindt look like that to me and Punisher had a bad leg as well.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No I didnt.......see? Can you see whY I get annoyed sometimes?





]
but you did. You said he dislocated DD arm which he did in the ennis run........

Originally posted by Alfheim



Dindt look like that to me and Punisher had a bad leg as well.
That wasent there last fight you do know that right..........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
but you did. You said he dislocated DD arm which he did in the ennis run........

no no no no no no....look again.



Originally posted by Alfheim


What like the last fight were Frank beat up DD badly and dislocated DDs arm?

.

Where did I say it was Einnis.


Originally posted by Battlehammer
That wasent there last fight you do know that right..........

No well anyway I was refering to the one I posted.

Originally posted by Alfheim
no no no no no no....look again.





Where did I say it was Einnis.




No well anyway I was refering to the one I posted.
dude I never said you said It was ennis.


I said it was ennis becuase that happen in an ennis fight........hence why I said you should make your self more clear when bringing up a fight.

in in the one you posted the fight ended real quickly not to mention punisher would never pull the trigger to a gun thats been cut like that......or he shouldent becuase it would kill him.......

Logan would and has stomped punisher

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well Ok since ive calmed down now let me try and respond to this...*sigh*


Yes I know.....

Then don't say that he isn't.. When you do that and KNOW otherwise, you're just arguing for arguments sake.
It's ridiculous.


Originally posted by Alfheim
What like the last fight were Frank beat up DD badly and dislocated DDs arm?

Cause that's the standard right? I mean it's not like we've seen a half dozen occasions where DD is casually slapping Punisher away like nothing while Punisher's ADMITTING his own inferiority...



Originally posted by Alfheim
Didnt Frank have a non Einis fight with Wolverine were he did pretty well considering in fact Punisher hit him more times than Wolverine did.

No..
There's two fights in the jungle.. the first one Wolverine one shots Frank.
The second one was inconclusive but Frank got the jump on Wolvie from the start of that fight.
They have another fight where Wolverine's casually stomping Frank all over a mall, Frank's only way of defending himself was while Wolverine was talking or messing around.
And another quick h2h fight that ended before it really got started.

hell even in the Ennis fight Punisher admitted he was out of his league and getting stomped on, he even attributed any advantage he had in that fight to sheer luck...


Originally posted by Alfheim
Which contradicts the first time where Frank threatened to kill him.

I see.. so when Wolverine had his claws pointed at Xaviers head he had the intent to kill?

Like someone painfully pointed out to you, threatening to kill someone and actually attempting it are two different things entirely.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and Frank has taken shots from Doc Samson, Doc wasnt trying to kill him but it must have been pretty hard. Oh yeah and Franks taken a punchs from the US Agent as well.

When did he take shots from Samson?

It still doesn't matter has Frank doesn't have the ability to take more punishment from Cap than the other way around...
and he can't dish as much out....
Cap's superior.



Originally posted by Alfheim
...Do you know why its PIS. Its PIS because.

1. Punisher has humiliated Nightcrawler and Spiderman.
2. Has shot Spiderman
3. Nearly killed DD.
4. Deflected DD's billyclub on more than one occasion.
5. Evaded a suprise attack from Cap and deflected and caught his shield with his feet.


1. Neither are Elektra.. irrelivent.
2. Which is still not elektra...

and that was ONE TIME... how about the half dozen times that Spiderman has casually swatted punisher aside like a rag doll or dodged his gunfire at point blank?

Oh yeah lets ignore consistency for the sake of your agument right?

3. CONSISTENCY
4. So has Elektra she's clearly faster than a billy club.
5. you're saying that like Cap was using a full force throw...

Is it impressive? Yep, is it impressive enough to call PIS? Nope.
6. Paladin CHEATED to beat Cap.. christ.. CON-SIS-TENC-Y..

Lets ignore the fact that Cap's proven to be Paladin's superior in at least three Captain America storylines before that fight.
Lets ignore the fact that Paladin cheated..
Lets ignore the fact that both Misty Knight AND Shang Chi effortlessly pwned him after that fight when he wasn't cheating... all for the sake of your argument.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Its not a hard concept to understand to thats why Wolverine getting KOed by a deer is PIS because hes taken far more damage. The same way its PIS for Elecktra to take the gun out of his hand because of his other showings.
He doesn't have comparible showings...

Originally posted by Alfheim
.......Ok lets see if you can get this into context but you'll probably tell me im changing my argument. Lets have a look at my post....part 1
lets



Originally posted by Alfheim
What does this mean...note the bit I underlined. It means I dont have a problem with Cap Koing Thunderball, what I have a problem with is Cap being able to KO Thunderball and NOT being able to KO Luke Cage..get it?

you underline some shit like that automatically changes how you brought up what you said.. and yes you are changing your argument.. you do this everytime you get painted into a corner so it comes as no surprise.

Apparently you don't get it... Cap KOs Thunderball... ONCE.. for a MOMENT...
Yes he hurts bricks but KOing them isn't a standard for him...

Cage HAS a standard for taking punishment far and above what Cap regularly dishes out.. why are we assuming his durability gets dropped for the sake of your argu--- I mean Cap..

Yes the showing opens up the door to the possibility that Cap MIGHT be able to do it... does it mean that he can? no probably not.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
dude I never said you said It was ennis.


Whats that then.


Originally posted by Battlehammer


you said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in there alst fight by ennis.




Originally posted by Battlehammer


in in the one you posted the fight ended real quickly not to mention punisher would never pull the trigger to a gun thats been cut like that......or he shouldent becuase it would kill him.......

Its a comicbook.....

Originally posted by Battlehammer


Logan would and has stomped punisher

Yeah he would in the end.

Originally posted by jinzin


you underline some shit like that automatically changes how you brought up what you said.. and yes you are changing your argument.. you do this everytime you get painted into a corner so it comes as no surprise.



Dont respond to my post anymore please. I give up.

fine.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Whats that then.
OMG pay attention.

You said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in the last ennis fight.......wtf don't you udnerstand. I never said you said it was an ennis fight








Originally posted by Alfheim
Its a comicbook.....



Yeah he would in the end.
if wolverine trying to kill punsher the fight should not last very long what so ever

Originally posted by Battlehammer
OMG pay attention.

You said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in the last ennis


No I didnt...

Originally posted by Alfheim

What like the last fight were Frank beat up DD badly and dislocated DDs arm?



Where did I say it was Einnis?

Originally posted by Battlehammer

fight.......wtf don't you udnerstand. I never said you said it was an ennis fight





What does this mean?



Originally posted by Battlehammer


YOU said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in there alst fight by ENNIS.




Can anybody else see this?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I just remebered Frank has fought Cap on two other occassion in one ocassion it was a proper fight. So yeah it is inconsistent with his character. Frank moved from threatening to kill him and actually phsicailly fighting him to letting Cap beat him up. Obvoulsy it was bad writing.

Bad writing in your eyes maybe, but I actually like the idea and Marvel seem to be running with Punisher having the upmost respect for Cap and what he stood for.

Characters evolve and it looks to me like Punisher is going through some re writes, I guess if you are a hardcore fan you may not like it.

Like I say its a question of opinion lots of characters get retconned and past fights forgotten or changed.

Titania for example WTFpwned She Hulk in Secret Wars but that was re written in She Hulk's series.

These things happen, Frank has crossed swords with Cap in the past and now he won't fight back, these things happen and I guess whether you like them or not really depends on how big a fan of the character you are.

But my evidence that Frank wouldn't go for the kill against Cap is just as valid as yours that he would, in fact as my evidence is current some would say more valid.

Call it CIS, PIS or bad writing, it happened and it seems to be a bit of an ongoing theme with Punisher at the moment (the new costume etc) so its valid.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No I didnt...




Where did I say it was Einnis?





What does this mean?





Can anybody else see this?

are you a fighting idiot?



I never siad you said it was an ennis fight



You said Punisher dislocated DD arm.

and then I said

Punisher dislocated DD arm in an ennis run


wtf don't you understand?

man I thought you were brighter then this.

Originally posted by Hercules
Bad writing in your eyes maybe, but I actually like the idea and Marvel seem to be running with Punisher having the upmost respect for Cap and what he stood for.

Characters evolve and it looks to me like Punisher is going through some re writes, I guess if you are a hardcore fan you may not like it.

Like I say its a question of opinion lots of characters get retconned and past fights forgotten or changed.

Titania for example WTFpwned She Hulk in Secret Wars but that was re written in She Hulk's series.

These things happen, Frank has crossed swords with Cap in the past and now he won't fight back, these things happen and I guess whether you like them or not really depends on how big a fan of the character you are.

But my evidence that Frank wouldn't go for the kill against Cap is just as valid as yours that he would, in fact as my evidence is current some would say more valid.

Call it CIS, PIS or bad writing, it happened and it seems to be a bit of an ongoing theme with Punisher at the moment (the new costume etc) so its valid.

OK but dont you think its inconsistnet for Frank to threaten to kill cap and then in another circumstance actually try and kill and beat him up. I guess bad writing is a matter of opinion but it is inconsistent.

This is the thing it states that Frank met Cap when he was training for Nam and he didnt fight back....obvoulsy the person wirting it didnt know that Frank has tried to kill him before and threatened to kill him.

Originally posted by Battlehammer


you said punisher dislocated DD arm which he did in there alst fight by ennis.




By the way could you do me a quick favour could you just please intepret this sentence im going mad here....

Originally posted by Alfheim
OK but dont you think its inconsistnet for Frank to threaten to kill cap and then in another circumstance actually try and kill and beat him up. I guess bad writing is a matter of opinion but it is inconsistent.

Unfortunatley, Inconsistent = comics in general, thats why debating them is so interesting, very few characters have a consistant history.

Originally posted by Hercules
Unfortunatley, Inconsistent = comics in general, thats why debating them is so interesting, very few characters have a consistant history.

Fair enough. Anyway I guess history SHOULD be consistent.

Originally posted by Hercules
Unfortunatley, Inconsistent = comics in general, thats why debating them is so interesting, very few characters have a consistant history.

i think sometimes the character changes in certain circumstances..
but if any character is consistent in comics, its the punisher. he's still got only one thing on his mind: killing bad guys.

but anyway, after seeing how punisher had captain america at gun point after plopping his shield onto the ground, i give this to Punisher
6/10

Originally posted by TheGame17

but anyway, after seeing how punisher had captain america at gun point after plopping his shield onto the ground, i give this to Punisher
6/10

I disagree but at least your actually able to see the scan and process the information.

Originally posted by TheGame17
i think sometimes the character changes in certain circumstances..
but if any character is consistent in comics, its the punisher. he's still got only one thing on his mind: killing bad guys.

but anyway, after seeing how punisher had captain america at gun point after plopping his shield onto the ground, i give this to Punisher
6/10

Thats his frame of mind rather than his history...

Even with his respect for Cap, hes still waging a war on crime and wasting bad guys.

Thats one instance, there is another scan Alf posted which had him hit Cap and then run because as he said himself hand to hand he loses, so he wanted to out run him and if he couldn'...well he had a gun.

Even having Cap sheild less and pointing a gun at him, impressive as it is, still doesn't guarentee Cap isn't going to dodge.

You can't really base a majority on one scan, Alf is a huge Punisher fan and hes not doing that, just using it as evidence that Frank can steal a few wins here, which I agree with.

I must say, Punisher's feats peaked when he was first introduced. He has either declined in power or other characters have become stronger. Either way frank can still take punishment on a near superhuman level and keep coming, frank will utilize his dirty tactics, and he will not let his respect for cap get in the way. I take into consideration bloodlust, cap usually fights fair, while frank fights dirty all the time, ball shots, biting, ripping at eyes and stoping while on the ground using enviornment as a weapon are all part of his fighting style.

Originally posted by Hercules
Thats his frame of mind rather than his history...

Even with his respect for Cap, hes still waging a war on crime and wasting bad guys.

Thats one instance, there is another scan Alf posted which had him hit Cap and then run because as he said himself hand to hand he loses, so he wanted to out run him and if he couldn'...well he had a gun.

Even having Cap sheild less and pointing a gun at him, impressive as it is, still doesn't guarentee Cap isn't going to dodge.

You can't really base a majority on one scan, Alf is a huge Punisher fan and hes not doing that, just using it as evidence that Frank can steal a few wins here, which I agree with.



Originally posted by jgiant
I must say, Punisher's feats peaked when he was first introduced. He has either declined in power or other characters have become stronger.

Hes just badly written he should have got better as well.


Originally posted by jgiant

Either way frank can still take punishment on a near superhuman level and keep coming, frank will utilize his dirty tactics, and he will not let his respect for cap get in the way. I take into consideration bloodlust, cap usually fights fair, while frank fights dirty all the time, ball shots, biting, ripping at eyes and stoping while on the ground using enviornment as a weapon are all part of his fighting style.

Knowing Frank he'll rip off his own arm and beat Cap with it or something.

Indeed, badest mother fuka on the planet.

Originally posted by jgiant
Indeed, badest mother fuka on the planet.

I'll drink to that, well I dont drink but you know what I mean .

Originally posted by Soljer
Get off my sack, son. My earlier post about Captain America only losing if Sharan Carter is there to finish him off was a joke reference to Cap's death. Jesus-H.


You know what im not even gonna get into that. It seemed you implied that Frank loses 10/10.

Originally posted by Soljer

Owned and quite right on all points.

If you cant understand that saying that Cap can KO Thunderball but cant KO Luke Cage is a contradiction then obvoulsy you dont when someone has or hasnt been owned. So since your so smart and I got owned please explain how Cap can KO Thunderball and cant KO Luke Cage. You said you justify it.

Thunderballs taken shots from Thors hammer and is bulletproof....I dont think current Luke Cage is as durable as Thunderball....do the math.

Also part of his post was irrelevent he was strawmanning he was arguing against point I wanst even arguing against. If you actually read my post properly and the response to it you would have realised that.

Originally posted by jinzin


You want to try and make since of Captain America KOing someone who has enough durability to stand up to punches from GODS AND DEMONS, you want to imply that him KOing a man who's falling out of skyscrapers and got up with a whistle is OK... but then you have the AUDACITY to turn around and condemn Wolverine's physiology?

What the hell is the matter with you?

You want to talk about what Cap's or Punisher have done in the comics and then turn around that say comic logic is bad?

Why would bullets and stabbing/cutting weapons go through Wolverine but not brick punches? hmmmmm I wonder.. I mean it's not like there's TONS of BRICKLIKE characters who suffer from that same affliction.. It's not like there's different TYPES of durability.

It's not like Wolverine's never shown to have above human durability levels, or hell even described as a superhuman.. or sh*t, even given an entire Lupin backstory that solidifies that he's some sort of quasi-wereman which would clearly EXPLAIN his superhuman attributes 'sides the mutation.

And I mean, it IS like we've totally seen what brick punches do to a person with a healing factor and an admantium skeleton so we clearly KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT what would happen if they were to be hit.


The more you post every day the more I can't help feeling like you're turning into a joke.. I like you Alf, I really do, and I don't want to do this to you, but if you're gonna get so damned uppity any time I even try to converse with you, then this has to be done.

All that is complete and utter strawman. Im not even arguing against it. If you also cant understand that hes arguing against points im not even arguing about how do you know wether I got owned?

Originally posted by Alfheim
All that is complete and utter strawman. Im not even arguing against it. If you also cant understand that hes arguing against points im not even arguing about how do you know wether I got owned?

That wasn't a strawman, you implied that there was no reasoning behind Soljers opinion that Punisher would go down to Cap 10 times out of 10.. then you said that Punisher wasn't just a guy with a gun.

That post for the most part (non-wolvie related) was simply to show you that the reasoning DOES exist (and one doesn't have to go far outside of common sense to utilize it either ...) and that for as badass as the Punisher is he is only a guy with a gun.. something you even admitted later..

Strawman my ass. I didn't attack any positions you never made, I simply stated a large number of facts to show you the reasoning behind the position of someone else.
And you say that I don't understand concepts..

Originally posted by jinzin
That wasn't a strawman,


What wasnt a strawman? Please point out the section of your post that I said you were strawmanning because I think your getting things mixed up.

Originally posted by jinzin

you implied that there was no reasoning behind Soljers opinion that Punisher would go down to Cap 10 times out of 10..

Yeah so I was talking to Soljer whats that got to do with you? The part in which I refered to you in the post to Soljer was about the strawman nothing else. So if I dont think 10/10 is justified let Soljer respond to me not you.

Originally posted by jinzin

That post for the most part (non-wolvie related) was simply to show you that the reasoning DOES exist (and one doesn't have to go far outside of common sense to utilize it either ...) and that for as badass as the Punisher is he is only a guy with a gun.. something you even admitted later..

Yeah but what did I mean by that? He doesnt have super-soldier serum he doesnt have radar sense but hes obvoulsy not an ordinray guy with a gun if he can shoot Spiderman, get it? Thats why he loses the majority he doesnt have any enhancemenst.

Originally posted by jinzin

Strawman my ass. I didn't attack any positions you never made, I simply stated a large number of facts to show you the reasoning behind the position of someone else.
And you say that I don't understand concepts..

Yeah so what was this all about then?

Originally posted by jinzin


You want to try and make since of Captain America KOing someone who has enough durability to stand up to punches from GODS AND DEMONS, you want to imply that him KOing a man who's falling out of skyscrapers and got up with a whistle is OK... but then you have the AUDACITY to turn around and condemn Wolverine's physiology?

What the hell is the matter with you?

You want to talk about what Cap's or Punisher have done in the comics and then turn around that say comic logic is bad?

Why would bullets and stabbing/cutting weapons go through Wolverine but not brick punches? hmmmmm I wonder.. I mean it's not like there's TONS of BRICKLIKE characters who suffer from that same affliction.. It's not like there's different TYPES of durability.

It's not like Wolverine's never shown to have above human durability levels, or hell even described as a superhuman.. or sh*t, even given an entire Lupin backstory that solidifies that he's some sort of quasi-wereman which would clearly EXPLAIN his superhuman attributes 'sides the mutation.

And I mean, it IS like we've totally seen what brick punches do to a person with a healing factor and an admantium skeleton so we clearly KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT what would happen if they were to be hit.


The more you post every day the more I can't help feeling like you're turning into a joke.. I like you Alf, I really do, and I don't want to do this to you, but if you're gonna get so damned uppity any time I even try to converse with you, then this has to be done.

Originally posted by jinzin
Are you serious?

The reason why I aksed is because I got the impression you got it twisted.

Originally posted by jinzin


And why would I know the what sections ou were talking about it. You said "all that is" seems to me it wasn't about any specific section... are you going crazy or losing braincells?

Forget it.


Originally posted by jinzin

And I was fine letting it continue to be between you and Soljer until you blew up at me... You bet your ass it had somehing to do with me after that.

Yeah thats because he posted your post dont blame you for saying something but at the end of the day I thought part of your post was irelevant so I had to say that.

Originally posted by jinzin

Again WTF? None of that was strawmanning.. I told you what it was..


Well we shall see.

Originally posted by jinzin

Lol, There you go again.. Yes he IS just a guy with a gun.. you may WANT to give him more credit than that, but at the end of the day his physicality, his training and skill, and hell even his intelligence is pretty normal for any half rate human heroes in the comic world.. Again you like to call PIS on whatever doesn't suit your arguments


Whatever.

Originally posted by jinzin

but you try to somehow validate that Punisher shooting Spiderman was okay.. or hell even suggesting that it's some sort of standard.. your ridiculous double standards are out of control.. Do you even know how many bullets Spiderman's dodged in his career? how many lazers or electric bolts? For a person that likes to appeal to PIS it's straight retarded to try and justify that Punisher can shoot Spiderman when you look at the scope of not only Spiderman's entire career, but also in relation to his career with Punisher.

This is basically hypocrisy I could say the samething about Captain Americe being able to KO Thunderball and Bricks.

Originally posted by jinzin

Guess my post didn't work.. There's PLENTY of reasons why Punisher would lose the majority or even get straight no sold to Captain America and only a few of them have anything to do with enhancements.

Well just keep ignoring evidence. Frank dislocates DDs arm and busts him up and almost kills him on another ocassion but he still loses 10/10. Just ignore evidence.



Originally posted by jinzin


Gee I dunno a response to THIS nonsense:


Seriously Alf you're becoming more and more of a joke with each post.. It's embarassing to watch.

Yeah but you didnt even understand it. If you dont even understand what im saying you cant call it nonsense.

Pretty please with sugar on top. EXPLAIN WHY you think its nonsense.

Maybe I misunderstand what you're trying to say, but please explain so we can know for sure.

Originally posted by jinzin


You want to try and make since of Captain America KOing someone who has enough durability to stand up to punches from GODS AND DEMONS, you want to imply that him KOing a man who's falling out of skyscrapers and got up with a whistle is OK... but then you have the AUDACITY to turn around and condemn Wolverine's physiology?

What the hell is the matter with you?

You want to talk about what Cap's or Punisher have done in the comics and then turn around that say comic logic is bad?

Why would bullets and stabbing/cutting weapons go through Wolverine but not brick punches? hmmmmm I wonder.. I mean it's not like there's TONS of BRICKLIKE characters who suffer from that same affliction.. It's not like there's different TYPES of durability.

It's not like Wolverine's never shown to have above human durability levels, or hell even described as a superhuman.. or sh*t, even given an entire Lupin backstory that solidifies that he's some sort of quasi-wereman which would clearly EXPLAIN his superhuman attributes 'sides the mutation.

And I mean, it IS like we've totally seen what brick punches do to a person with a healing factor and an admantium skeleton so we clearly KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT what would happen if they were to be hit.


The more you post every day the more I can't help feeling like you're turning into a joke.. I like you Alf, I really do, and I don't want to do this to you, but if you're gonna get so damned uppity any time I even try to converse with you, then this has to be done.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This is basically hypocrisy I could say the samething about Captain Americe being able to KO Thunderball and Bricks.

How is this hypocrisy on MY behalf?
Since, you know, I'M not the one trying to validate that Cap should be able to knock out Thunderball OR any other bricks.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well just keep ignoring evidence. Frank dislocates DDs arm and busts him up and almost kills him on another ocassion but he still loses 10/10. Just ignore evidence.

I'm not ignoring anything.

Punisher being able to beat DD two or three out of the 7 times they've fought doesn't validate that he can beat Captain America.. well.. AT ALL actually. Especially when the bulk of those pro-punisher examples come from Garth Ennis.

You're the one ignoring evidence by pretending that Ennis' admitted bias had no influence on the outcome of those fights and clearly KNOWING that DD has kicked the Punisher's ass more times and the other way around, and yet STILL continuing to present the opposite as a standard.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but you didnt even understand it. If you dont even understand what im saying you cant call it nonsense.

I understood it just fine; You're giving yourself entirely too much credit here.

Let me ask you something Alf; If EVERYONE you debate against has trouble understanding your concepts, theories and arguments (because I've seen you fall back on this type of copout before against half a dozen other people off the top ofmy head)... have you considered that maybe it's not because they can't grasp concepts but perhaps because you just absolutely SUCK at conveying them?

I mean, if what you're saying is true, and you're NOT backtracking in these arguments to help your ass save some face, then the only other explaination is that you simply do a craptastic job of saying what you MEANT when you decided to say it.

Because, to be frank, you don't exactly strike me as one of genious level intellect that would leave us all baffled in front of our computer screens at home... Well not baffled due to awe anyways.. baffled due to nonsensical rantings perhaps.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Pretty please with sugar on top. EXPLAIN WHY you think its nonsense.


That's easy:
Cap being able to KO Thunderball, Cap's possibility to KO Luke Cage, Black Panther's supposed speed advantage over Wolverine, ELEKTRA, Wolverine's ability to take punishement from bricks, OR the explanation behind any one of those things has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this thread, the fight, OR Soljers opinion of the fight's outcome. Thus, you ranting on about all of those things at once is nothing more than a bunch of nonsense.

Originally posted by jinzin
How is this hypocrisy on MY behalf?
Since, you know, I'M not the one trying to validate that Cap should be able to knock out Thunderball OR any other bricks.


But my point is that it doesnt make any logical sense but hes done it many times so it doesnt matter if it doesnt make sense.

Originally posted by jinzin

I'm not ignoring anything.

Punisher being able to beat DD two or three out of the 7 times they've fought doesn't validate that he can beat Captain America.. well.. AT ALL actually. Especially when the bulk of those pro-punisher examples come from Garth Ennis.

Ive never used any Ennis fights to prove that Punsiher can beat DD

Originally posted by jinzin

You're the one ignoring evidence by pretending that Ennis' admitted bias had no influence on the outcome of those fights and clearly


Yeah where did I use Ennis as proof that Pun can beat DD or Cap? Please show me.

Originally posted by jinzin

KNOWING that DD has kicked the Punisher's ass more times and the other way around, and yet STILL continuing to present the opposite as a standard.

Well thats why Frank loses the majority, so you're just ranting here. Hell even if you look at the fights were DD beats Frank sometimes its just circumstances for example there is one fight were a bullet bounces off the ground and into Franks leg and he lost the fight due to this. Another fight Frank was losing to DD but got KOed because he wanted to get somebody to hospital......but there are some fights that Frank could have possibly won and one where he has.....and thats why I could steal at least two from Cap.



Originally posted by jinzin

I understood it just fine; You're giving yourself entirely too much credit here.

Let me ask you something Alf; If EVERYONE you debate against has trouble understanding your concepts, theories and arguments (because I've seen you fall back on this type of copout before against half a dozen other people off the top ofmy head)... have you considered that maybe it's not because they can't grasp concepts but perhaps because you just absolutely SUCK at conveying them?

Well ok lets put it this way. Didnt you just accuse me of using Einnis as evidence in this thread? Could you please show me where I have. If I havent used Einnis and you have said I have that means you have a problem not me. Hell Battlehammer accused me of saying that I said Cap wins the majority against Wolverine, I showed him clearly in black and white were I didnt say that, so again im not the one with the problem.

Originally posted by jinzin

I mean, if what you're saying is true, and you're NOT backtracking in these arguments to help your ass save some face, then the only other explaination is that you simply do a craptastic job of saying what you MEANT when you decided to say it.

Well at least your starting to come around to the possibility that I wasnt backtracking which is a start. I dont think I did a bad job I did explain in detail the second time what I meant. So even if you misunderstood me the first time I explained it in detail the second time.

Originally posted by jinzin

Because, to be frank, you don't exactly strike me as one of genious level intellect that would leave us all baffled in front of our computer screens at home... Well not baffled due to awe anyways.. baffled due to nonsensical rantings perhaps.


I love you to.

Originally posted by jinzin

That's easy:
Cap being able to KO Thunderball, Cap's possibility to KO Luke Cage, Black Panther's supposed speed advantage over Wolverine, ELEKTRA, Wolverine's ability to take punishement from bricks, OR the explanation behind any one of those things has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this thread,


Yeah it does my point was that you cant say that Cap can KO Thunderball and not KO Luke Cage my point is that its a contradiction. My point was also that saying that Punisher cant shoot Spiderman but say that Wolverine can take shots from the Hulk is a contradiction.

Originally posted by jinzin

the fight, OR Soljers opinion of the fight's outcome. Thus, you ranting on about all of those things at once is nothing more than a bunch of nonsense.

Did I say that Wolverine taking shots from the HUlk was PIS?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Did you actually see why I said that? So let mle get this straight he tells me im a prattling little **** and your telling me that im giving a bad impression? Ok could you please explain how?

i don't like people being patronising, and i particularly dont like it when people condescend and at the same time try to hide it, both of which you were doing...

you aren't the only one i mentioned, so stop acting like i'm picking on you...

Originally posted by jinzin
Punisher being able to beat DD two or three out of the 7 times they've fought doesn't validate that he can beat Captain America.. well.. AT ALL actually. Especially when the bulk of those pro-punisher examples come from Garth Ennis.

punisher beat DD in a fight? written by ennis? and this is the guy they get to write x-men? aww hell...

Originally posted by pr1983
i don't like people being patronising, and i particularly dont like it when people condescend and at the same time try to hide it,

No I wasnt hding anything, for example I clearly called Battlehammer an idiot.


Originally posted by pr1983

both of which you were doing...

Yeah I was being insulting in some cases but that its due to previous discussions but obvoulsy you wouldnt know that. For example Battlehammer constantly keeps telling that I said stuff that I didnt say so you can see why I got pissed off. I try to be polite but sometimes I get pissed off but I wasnt trying to hide anything I thought I was being Frank. For example I called somebody a hypocrite and I explained why I thought he was a hypocrite thats not condesending thats me being....Frank....no pun intended.


Originally posted by pr1983

you aren't the only one i mentioned, so stop acting like i'm picking on you...


Well I was a bit miffed that you didnt have a go at somebody who called me a prattling little **** who I didnt insult.


Originally posted by pr1983

punisher beat DD in a fight? written by ennis? and this is the guy they get to write x-men? aww hell...

Er did you see the scan were Frank beat DD and wasnt Einnis? Did you see the scans were Frank beat the crap out of DD? He lost but it was a close fight.

Originally posted by pr1983
punisher beat DD in a fight? written by ennis? and this is the guy they get to write x-men? aww hell...

Don't worry, Ennis has his odd moments, but he's a very solid writer most of the time and has a lot of experience and well received books under his belt already (which, if you haven't read already, you really should):

Preacher.
Hitman.
Punisher MAX.
And lots more.

Not that it matters, because it's WARREN ELLIS that will be writing AXM .

Ok People. If ive said anything that pissed anybody off I apologise lets all just chill out....ok? Lets just start again from where we left off but lets try to be polite. Im also not perfect either and have taken what people have said out of context numerous times.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No I wasnt hding anything, for example I clearly called Battlehammer an idiot.




Yeah I was being insulting in some cases but that its due to previous discussions but obvoulsy you wouldnt know that. For example Battlehammer constantly keeps telling that I said stuff that I didnt say so you can see why I got pissed off. I try to be polite but sometimes I get pissed off but I wasnt trying to hide anything I thought I was being Frank. For example I called somebody a hypocrite and I explained why I thought he was a hypocrite thats not condesending thats me being....Frank....no pun intended.




Well I was a bit miffed that you didnt have a go at somebody who called me a prattling little **** who I didnt insult.




Er did you see the scan were Frank beat DD and wasnt Einnis? Did you see the scans were Frank beat the crap out of DD? He lost but it was a close fight.

seeing as you said this:

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok People. If ive said anything that pissed anybody off I apologise lets all just chill out....ok? Lets just start again from where we left off but lets try to be polite. Im also not perfect either and have taken what people have said out of context numerous times.

i'll leave it be...

though i fail to see how frank could take matt in a hand to hand fight... dd should walk all over him imo...

Originally posted by Citizen V
Don't worry, Ennis has his odd moments, but he's a very solid writer most of the time and has a lot of experience and well received books under his belt already (which, if you haven't read already, you really should):

Preacher.
Hitman.
Punisher MAX.
And lots more.

Not that it matters, because it's WARREN ELLIS that will be writing AXM .

shit.

Originally posted by pr1983


though i fail to see how frank could take matt in a hand to hand fight... dd should walk all over him imo...


Yeah but bro the scans. Sure DD will win a majority but if you look at their shwoings Frank should be able to get three wins on DD and two on Cap.

Originally posted by Alfheim


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6277/capvspun1oz4.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9010/capvspun32gibn3.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6694/capvspun43qmzl8.th.jpg



This is their first fight. Frank wins.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4964/punddbeat1lu9.th.jpg
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9633/punddbeat2gl4.th.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6809/punddbeat3wu8.th.jpg

In their second fight Frank could have won but he turned his back on him. DD states your missing unpurpose.

http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil184185ut.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil184195yo.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil184200mu.jpg

Third fight. DD is doing better but Frank doesnt do too badly either.

http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher3bk.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher21vm.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher34zo.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher46od.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher53yz.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher64uq.jpg

Lets look at some which Frank loses......

Franks just manages to deflect DDs baton
http://img22.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=0f8b3_Daredevil65_24.jpg

...but the bullet ricohets off the baton onto the ground onto his leg. I dont think DD planed that.

http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=84bb5_Daredevil65_25.jpg

Frank is on the ground in pain, he could have possibly got DD if he wasnt shot in the leg...anyway Frank has taken more damage than that and kept on moving.


http://img135.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=3429a_Daredevil65_26.jpg

Heres another one which he loses but bear in mind that it doesnt go completly DDs way but of course DD does better in this fight. Frank deflects DDs baton...again...manages to avoid a throw by DD and thumps in the head with the gun. Sure DD then pressure point him but in the end KOs Frank because hes trying to get the guy to Hospital.

http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher94zo.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher107je.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher117wv.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher120iu.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher135oo.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddvspunisher141iz.jpg

This is their last fight. Frank beats the crap out of DD but loses.

Originally posted by Alfheim


http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6057xo.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6069kr.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6074yb.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6089is.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6095mh.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6116zo.jpg
http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6120vi.jpg
http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6139lz.jpg



As far as I knwo their are only two other fights were DD beats the crap out of Frank and even in one of those the fights ends up with Frank punching DD so hard he drops his baton.

Who knows I think Frank actually can take more punishment than DD it could be argued in some fights which got interrupted Frank could have evntually won because he takes more damage and fights dirty.

Originally posted by Alfheim
But my point is that it doesnt make any logical sense but hes done it many times so it doesnt matter if it doesnt make sense.
You didn't answer my question... lets try that again.. How is it hypocrisy on MY BEHALF when I'm not the one arguing that it's ok for Cap to KO Thunderball?

You said it was hypocrisy so I'm assuming hypocrisy WAS YOUR POINT...
This will be our first example of your piss poor ability to convey trains of thought.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ive never used any Ennis fights to prove that Punsiher can beat DD
Like Capt said, you brought up their "last fight", whether you know it or not their "last fight" was one that ENNIS WROTE..

Example two..


Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah where did I use Ennis as proof that Pun can beat DD or Cap? Please show me.


Right here:
Originally posted by Alfheim
What like the last fight were Frank beat up DD badly and dislocated DDs arm?

Which once again whether you know it or not WAS AN ENNIS FIGHT.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Well thats why Frank loses the majority, so you're just ranting here.
That's not ranting...
Unlike you, I try to keep my posts pertinent to the subject matter of the conversation at hand.. You thinking that Punisher has a chance against Matt when most of his pro-examples come from Ennis books IS pertinent to this thread...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Hell even if you look at the fights were DD beats Frank sometimes its just circumstances for example there is one fight were a bullet bounces off the ground and into Franks leg and he lost the fight due to this.
He lost the fight because he was an idiot and pulled the trigger while DD was still capible to respond.. It wasn't like they were circumstances that wouldn't happen in a forum fight... It's not like D brought a steamroller to the fight or a suit that he normally wouldn't have.. Punisher just owned himself.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Another fight Frank was losing to DD but got KOed because he wanted to get somebody to hospital......

DD wasn't losing that fight. Punisher was on the reieving end before it got interrupted.

Originally posted by Alfheim
but there are some fights that Frank could have possibly won and one where he has.....and thats why I could steal at least two from Cap. Exactly.. one fight.. one fight where he's done well against DD doesn't mean that he stands a. chance. at. all. against Cap.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok lets put it this way. Didnt you just accuse me of using Einnis as evidence in this thread? Could you please show me where I have.
Because you inadvertantly DID.. if you read the comics you would know this... and I showed you above.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If I havent used Einnis and you have said I have that means you have a problem not me. Hell Battlehammer accused me of saying that I said Cap wins the majority against Wolverine, I showed him clearly in black and white were I didnt say that, so again im not the one with the problem.
The only problem I have with you is that you like to write more than you have read.. It's ridiculous.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well at least your starting to come around to the possibility that I wasnt backtracking which is a start. I dont think I did a bad job I did explain in detail the second time what I meant. So even if you misunderstood me the first time I explained it in detail the second time.
nah... you still did a pretty piss poor job at explaining it.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah it does my point was that you cant say that Cap can KO Thunderball and not KO Luke Cage my point is that its a contradiction. My point was also that saying that Punisher cant shoot Spiderman but say that Wolverine can take shots from the Hulk is a contradiction.
What? What contradiction? wtf?

Once again for one, I'M not trying to justify that Cap can KO Thunderball with one punch..

and; contradiction? again... wtf?

Punisher has shot Spiderman.... ONCE.. out of NUMEROUS encounters where he's failed to do so.. it's an example that objects to numerous examples that contradict it... it's also in objection to the hundreds of times that Spiderman's avoided unfire on levels much worse off than two handguns from Frank.

Wolverine? well he's been taking Hulk shots in every fight they've had and getting up from them since his FIRST APPEARANCE... It's also an example that's in agreement with hundreds of other in which Wolverine's able to successfully stand up to brick punches...

Spiderman getting shot is not a standard.
Wolverine taking brick punches is....
The only contradiction here is you thinking the opposite and trying to present two different colored examples trying to sell to us that they're the same.



Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I say that Wolverine taking shots from the HUlk was PIS?


.....







What.. in.. the blue hell... do you think exactly that:

Originally posted by jinzin
That's easy:
Cap being able to KO Thunderball, Cap's possibility to KO Luke Cage, Black Panther's supposed speed advantage over Wolverine, ELEKTRA, Wolverine's ability to take punishement from bricks, OR the explanation behind any one of those things has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this thread, the fight, OR Soljers opinion of the fight's outcome. Thus, you ranting on about all of those things at once is nothing more than a bunch of nonsense.

had ANYTHING to do with Wolverine, Hulk, or PIS?

Originally posted by pr1983
i don't like people being patronising, and i particularly dont like it when people condescend and at the same time try to hide it, both of which you were doing...

you aren't the only one i mentioned, so stop acting like i'm picking on you...



punisher beat DD in a fight? written by ennis? and this is the guy they get to write x-men? aww hell...

lol ridiculous isn't it?

But never fear I think you're thinking of ELLIS.

Originally posted by Citizen V
Don't worry, Ennis has his odd moments, but he's a very solid writer most of the time and has a lot of experience and well received books under his belt already (which, if you haven't read already, you really should):

Preacher.
Hitman.
Punisher MAX.
And lots more.

Not that it matters, because it's WARREN ELLIS that will be writing AXM .

lol.. yeah what he said..

I dunno, Ennis is an OK writer I suppose. I mean in terms of overal storyline he's okay and he does some pretty nice scenes with humor.. but he just doesn't need to be writing superhero comics if he doesn't like super heroes. It's that simple.

It's also immature for a guy like that to let personal bias infringe on character representation.. I mean I don't think much personally of Cyclops but I wouldn't be writing Wolverine to be beating him in fights or anything...
It lacks a bit of class when you toss aside a characters history, powers or attributes simply because you don't like them. at least in my opinion.

The last DD vs Pun fight was written by Einnis? The fight of Pun beating DD was published in 2006 and was wriiten by David Lapham.....wasnt it...well thats the info I got.

The last Punisher stuff that Einnis wrote I think was in 2004.

hmm maybe you're right.. I thought that the tri-fight came after or during their duo mini.. but perhaps you're right about the publication dates.. if so.. sorry then.

Originally posted by jinzin
hmm maybe you're right.. I thought that the tri-fight came after or during their duo mini.. but perhaps you're right about the publication dates.. if so.. sorry then.

I appreciate that you said you were sorry, right..... but can you see why I get angry sometimes. You just accused me of not being able to explain things properly. I never refered to Einnis and ive never used any scans from Einnis in this thread but in your last post you several times accused me of doing this when I havent.

I could also point out there is another example of Battlehammer saying that I said Cap wins the majority when I did not say that. So thats two times of somebody saying stuff I didnt say....and thats not the only example. Now taking this into consideration do you think theres a possibility that I could be right that you might be taking things out of context.....be honest.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but bro the scans. Sure DD will win a majority but if you look at their shwoings Frank should be able to get three wins on DD and two on Cap.

i can't see him getting three off matt without a serious bit of good luck... dd's abilites should be more than a match for frank's imo...

of course i'm someone who thinks that cap and dd would have an even split...



fighting dirty and taking damage is good, but against someone with superhuman abilities, and skill like matt's... i'm sorry but unless frank is packing anything less than a serious arsenal i can see matt taking him down at least 8/10...

Originally posted by jinzin
But never fear I think you're thinking of ELLIS.

yeah, my bad...



i've read punisher max (the last one i read was #46), and i have to be honest, from the few issues i've read i've found it to be quite an enjoyable read, it seems like a really decent book...



really? to be honest i'm quite surprised you've said that...



are we talking about ennis or someone else?

Originally posted by pr1983



fighting dirty and taking damage is good, but against someone with superhuman abilities, and skill like matt's... i'm sorry but unless frank is packing anything less than a serious arsenal i can see matt taking him down at least 8/10...






I'm not saying punisher would take the majority over DD, I think DD takes a solid majority over him actually, but when you say superhuman abilities, are you referring to his senses or physical stats?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I'm not saying punisher would take the majority over DD, I think DD takes a solid majority over him actually, but when you say superhuman abilities, are you referring to his senses or physical stats?

his senses... he's damn good physically, but i think matt's senses are very underrated...

Originally posted by pr1983
his senses... he's damn good physically, but i think matt's senses are very underrated...

Oh no I agree 110%, matt has some deadly acute senses. I'm just thinking physically, both are really good athletes, I think DD is nearing peak Human levels, Frank probably peak athlete. So although DD does have a slight advantage, I don't think its anything that frank shouldn't be able to contend with. Now DD senses is what gives him the definite edge over Frank. I just thinks Frank physically is underrated a bit as just a guy with a gun, hes in hella good shape, like I said peak athlete IMO.

But that's off topic, and I still think Cap takes a solid majority.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Oh no I agree 110%, matt has some deadly acute senses. I'm just thinking physically, both are really good athletes, I think DD is nearing peak Human levels, Frank probably peak athlete. So although DD does have a slight advantage, I don't think its anything that frank shouldn't be able to contend with. Now DD senses is what gives him the definite edge over Frank. I just thinks Frank physically is underrated a bit as just a guy with a gun, hes in hella good shape, like I said peak athlete IMO.

But that's off topic, and I still think Cap takes a solid majority.

i don't want to underestimate frank, not in the slightest, he's in great shape, and incredibly well trained... i just think matt's senses give him too much of an edge over frank...

i said frank too much...