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Please someone List for me the most powerful of these beings and or Artifacts from the Top to the Bottom

The IG
THe heart of the Infinite
the Living tribunal ( Classic)
The 616 eternity
The classic beyonder
the Current Omniversal LT
The True Beyonders
The infinites
Merlyn
Roma
Brian Braddock
Havok
White Crown Phoenix
Genis vell at his most powerful
MJJ
the Fury
HOM Scarlet witch

I need clarity on just who is omnipotent and who is nearly omnipotent.

The heart of the infinite sounds cool

I place my bets on that one

When did we get to see the True Beyonders?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Please someone List for me the most powerful of these beings and or Artifacts from the Top to the Bottom

The IG
THe heart of the Infinite
the Living tribunal ( Classic)
The 616 eternity
The classic beyonder
the Current Omniversal LT
The True Beyonders
The infinites
Merlyn
Roma
Brian Braddock
Havok
White Crown Phoenix
Genis vell at his most powerful
MJJ
the Fury
HOM Scarlet witch

I need clarity on just who is omnipotent and who is nearly omnipotent.

Imo.


The Heart of the Infinite
Classic Beyonder
The LT (only one LT in Marvel's history and he's never been retconned)
BeyonderS
......................................................................
IG
Fury (freakin plot device)
MJJ
Merlyn and Havok (tied imo)
Roma (but she manipulates everything so one can never truly tell)
Brian with Sword and Amulet
......................................................................
Wanda (HOM)
Eternity
Infinites
Genis
White Phoenix

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Please someone List for me the most powerful of these beings and or Artifacts from the Top to the Bottom

The IG
THe heart of the Infinite
the Living tribunal ( Classic)
The 616 eternity
The classic beyonder
the Current Omniversal LT
The True Beyonders
The infinites
Merlyn
Roma
Brian Braddock
Havok
White Crown Phoenix
Genis vell at his most powerful
MJJ
the Fury
HOM Scarlet witch

I need clarity on just who is omnipotent and who is nearly omnipotent.

This is my anonymous opinion

The heart of the Infinite
The Current Omniversal LT
The True Beyonders
The classic beyonder
Havok Nexus of all reality
The Living tribunal ( Classic)
The IG
MJJ
Brian Braddock
Genis vell at his most powerful
Merlyn
Roma
The infinites
White Crown Phoenix
The 616 eternity
The Fury Now someone will disagree they are IMO welcome to do so, but then please tell me how Fury would defeat a living universe.
HOM Scarlet witch you didn't mention her with the Chaos Wave so I assume its just regular HOM Wanda els she would be significant higher.

It should be noted that if it was possible I wanted to place some people at the same places but that wasn't apparently not a option

Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo.


The Heart of the Infinite
Classic Beyonder
The LT (only one LT in Marvel's history and he's never been retconned)
BeyonderS
......................................................................
IG
Fury (freakin plot device)
MJJ
Merlyn and Havok (tied imo)
Roma (but she manipulates everything so one can never truly tell)
Brian with Sword and Amulet
......................................................................
Wanda (HOM)
Eternity
Infinites
Genis
White Phoenix
Ok for one, The LT that the Classic Beyoder scared was only multiversal then. He never held any mega verses in his hands and there was no om niverse, as per you, everything outside of marvel was the beyonder.

Ok for two, Eternity had trouble wrestling back the hand of an infinite. So they have to be far above him if he couldn't thwart thier will and had to appeal to them for the universes very life.

Merlyn is omniversal correct? how is the IG above merlyn?

The Infinites were shown to be more powerful than Eternity, but then crappy writing made it so they had to sacrifice one of their own to make a planet... PIS to the extreme.

Lining up Galaxies was a cool feat though.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Ok for one, The LT that the Classic Beyoder scared was only multiversal then.

The LT was supreme within the Marvel Reality below the Molecule Man.

The Beyonder scared the second most powerful entity in Marvel,
and defeated the most powerful being in Marvel as well.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He never held any mega verses in his hands and there was no om niverse,

The same Omniverse of today, came from the same Multiverse of then.

The LT didnt hold megaverses because there were none to hold,
and/or the stories he was involved in didn't required it.

But besides Molecule Man,
the LT has always been second only to one superior (TOAA/God)
no matter the time, whether it was one Universe or an Infinity of Universes.

The LT's status has never changed, only Marvel's size.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
as per you, everything outside of marvel was the beyonder.

Which I'm sure was far greater than two Megaverses.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Ok for two, Eternity had trouble wrestling back the hand of an infinite. So they have to be far above him if he couldn't thwart thier will and had to appeal to them for the universes very life.

That was an Aspect of Eternity, not the Totality.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Merlyn is omniversal correct? how is the IG above merlyn?

I should've ranked them side by side,

my bad on that one.

I honestly believe the IG can do anything on any scale if the proper wielder wishes it.

But I don't try and argue who can win between two omniversal busters.
For that, one needs evidence.

Based solely on panel feats though?

Merlyn > IG

Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT was supreme within the Marvel Reality below the Molecule Man.

The Beyonder scared the second most powerful entity in Marvel,
and defeated the most powerful being in Marvel as well.



The same Omniverse of today, came from the same Multiverse of then.

The LT didnt hold megaverses because there were none to hold,
and/or the stories he was involved in didn't required it.

But besides Molecule Man,
the LT has always been second only to one superior (TOAA/God)
no matter the time, whether it was one Universe or an Infinity of Universes.

The LT's status has never changed, only Marvel's size.



Which I'm sure was far greater than two Megaverses.



That was an Aspect of Eternity, not the Totality.



I should've ranked them side by side,

my bad on that one.

I honestly believe the IG can do anything on any scale if the proper wielder wishes it.

But I don't try and argue who can win between two omniversal busters.
For that, one needs evidence.

Based solely on panel feats though?

Merlyn > IG

Ok master, time does have relevance. if at the time, the LT only was multiversal in power, then he would have to be more powerful as he is the judge of all reality. if the reality is BIGGER, than his power is bigger. I dont know why you can't see this. Or admit this. you are the one who compared eternity to a child and a grown up. It's much harder to beat up a full grown up than a child.

you can't pick and choose when an aspect of eternity is can you? You are the one who says that everything is connected to the prime Eternity. So when it's convenient it's only an aspect, when it's not, all of marvel is part of the "aspect" of eternity that is the 616. What gives?

Originally posted by llagrok
When did we get to see the True Beyonders?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Ok master, time does have relevance. if at the time, the LT only was multiversal in power, then he would have to be more powerful as he is the judge of all reality.

But he's always been the Judge of all Reality.

It's just that all Reality was a Multiverse back then.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
if the reality is BIGGER, than his power is bigger.
I dont know why you can't see this. Or admit this.

Aren't you overlooking the fact that the Bigger Reality is what the Beyonder was?

You mentioned LT's feat holding the Two MegaverseS,

but Beyonder was the embodiment of Universe larger than Two Megeverses,
he encompasssed the Infinite Beyond in fact,
which to this day, the Omniverse is still expading into.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
you are the one who compared eternity to a child and a grown up. It's much harder to beat up a full grown up than a child.

you can't pick and choose when an aspect of eternity is can you? You are the one who says that everything is connected to the prime Eternity. So when it's convenient it's only an aspect, when it's not, all of marvel is part of the "aspect" of eternity that is the 616. What gives?

Eternity 616 is special.

Every other Eternity is just an Aspect.

That was an Aspect.

Where is classic Beyonder now? How can a being that used to be this powerful make the list but is pratically unheard of now?

Originally posted by Sundipped
Where is classic Beyonder now? How can a being that used to be this powerful make the list but is pratically unheard of now?

he is retconned into a Inhuman Mutant (which is highly inlogical)

Originally posted by Mr Master
But he's always been the Judge of all Reality.

It's just that all Reality was a Multiverse back then.



Aren't you overlooking the fact that the Bigger Reality is what the Beyonder was?

You mentioned LT's feat holding the Two MegaverseS,

but Beyonder was the embodiment of Universe larger than Two Megeverses,
he encompasssed the Infinite Beyond in fact,
which to this day, the Omniverse is still expading into.



Eternity 616 is special.

Every other Eternity is just an Aspect.

That was an Aspect.
But in the story, it was the 616 eternity. And You are missing the point, In 1985 there was only the multiverse. The Every expanding marvel is now an omniverse to which the LT now sites over. Even if the lt has always been over marvel, the marvel we know isn't the same as the one from 1985. So the LT is far superior to his old self now and to the classic beyonder.

Originally posted by Utrigita
he is retconned into a Inhuman Mutant (which is highly inlogical)

WHAT!!!!
That's the biggest depowerment in the history of comics. Every time his name is used it should have a Secret Wars * beside it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
he is retconned into a Inhuman Mutant (which is highly inlogical)

While it's possible, it's just stupid :/

Originally posted by Utrigita
he is retconned into a Inhuman Mutant (which is highly inlogical)

Marvel.com spoiled it and revealed
that the Beyonder manipulated Xavier and company to believe that.

For reasons we will soon find out, in the next Beyonder involved arc.


In the July 07 Shaper of Worlds Bio,

Both Beyonder and Molecule Man still acquired their power from being Cube Beings.

Originally posted by llagrok
While it's possible, it's just stupid :/

No since the Inhuman gen and the Mutant works as two minus making a plus a Inhuman breeding with a Mutant will have a normal Child. (shown when The Inhumans moved there Home to the moon and Crystal and Magnetos son (cannot remember his name) have a child which was a 100% human.)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel.com spoiled it and revealed
that the Beyonder manipulated Xavier and company to believe that.

For reasons we will soon find out, in the next Beyonder involved arc.


In the July 07 Shaper of Worlds Bio,

Both Beyonder and Molecule Man still acquired their power from being Cube Beings.
any idea when the next beyonder arc is?

Let me get one thing straight here Beyonder in 1985 was everything outside the current multiverse.
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg

But Mr Master you are saying that suddenly he's bigger then two megaverses when "all" he encompased was a multiverse much greater then marvels but still "only" a multiverse.
http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mephistovsthexmen19ru1.jpg

So he cannot be bigger then the current marvel Omniverse since he was only a multiverse that existed outside the marvel, nothing more nothing less and by logic his space would actually have lessend since the marvel has expanded. Thats just my Openion

Originally posted by Utrigita
Let me get one thing straight here Beyonder in 1985 was everything outside the current multiverse.
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg

But Mr Master you are saying that suddenly he's bigger then two megaverses when "all" he encompased was a multiverse much greater then marvels but still "only" a multiverse.
http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mephistovsthexmen19ru1.jpg

So he cannot be bigger then the current marvel Omniverse since he was only a multiverse that existed outside the marvel, nothing more nothing less. Thats just my Openion

basically that is mine too.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
basically that is mine too.

Okay then thats oure openion and master are allowed to have his

Originally posted by Utrigita
Okay then thats oure openion and master are allowed to have his

As i've been stating. It's all opinion but to suggest, anyone is conclusive in thier opinion is crazy to me.

Originally posted by lordboo
any idea when the next beyonder arc is?

They didn't say, but supposedly soon.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Let me get one thing straight here Beyonder in 1985 was everything outside the current multiverse.
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg

Yea.

Originally posted by Utrigita
But Mr Master you are saying that suddenly he's bigger then two megaverses when "all" he encompased was a multiverse much greater then marvels but still "only" a multiverse.
http://img431.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mephistovsthexmen19ru1.jpg

Those aren't the right images that define the grandeur of BEyonder's Universe.

You say, "just a Multiverse greater than Marvels"

But it was actually the absolute Infinity Outside the Multiverse:

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg
"Masses form in the Void, Stars, Suns, and Planet s... LIFE Arises"

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4980/b3oz3.th.jpg
"Meeting NO resistance in the INFINITE BEYOND"


"Evolves and Flourishes Within the New Universe,
BEGAT (brought into existence) by Beyonder's Power"
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5558/buni5it5.th.jpg
"Mortal Beings giving meaning to the INFINITY in which they dwell"

Originally posted by Utrigita
So he cannot be bigger then the current marvel Omniverse
since he was only a multiverse that existed outside the marvel,

No one said it was bigger than the current Omniverse.

Be thorough.

What I said was,

Beyonder's Multiverse was bigger than Two Megaverses.


And Beyonder wasn't "just a Multiverse"

Beyonder's Reality encompassed all the Space outside the 616 Multiverse.

That means
Beyonder's Universe was as big as the Omniverse minus a Multiverse.

Originally posted by Utrigita
nothing more nothing less and by logic
his space would actually have lessend since the marvel has expanded.

Again,

Beyonder encompassed all the Infinite Space outside the Multiverse.

This same Infinite Space is what makes up the rest of the Omniverse today,
outside the Multiverse.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
As i've been stating. It's all opinion

For yall perhaps, but I'm stating Facts.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
but to suggest, anyone is conclusive in thier opinion is crazy to me.

It's a conclusive Fact,

that Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse.

And everything outside the Multiverse,

is the rest of the Omniverse of today.


So Beyonder's Universe = the Omniverse of today minus a Multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
They didn't say, but supposedly soon.

Do u think LT will intervene?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea.



Those aren't the right images that define the grandeur of BEyonder's Universe.

You say, "just a Multiverse greater than Marvels"

But it was actually the absolute Infinity Outside the Multiverse:

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg
"Masses form in the Void, Stars, Suns, and Planet s... LIFE Arises"

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4980/b3oz3.th.jpg
"Meeting NO resistance in the INFINITE BEYOND"


"Evolves and Flourishes Within the New Universe,
BEGAT (brought into existence) by Beyonder's Power"
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5558/buni5it5.th.jpg
"Mortal Beings giving meaning to the INFINITY in which they dwell"



No one said it was bigger than the current Omniverse.

Be thorough.

What I said was,

Beyonder's Multiverse was bigger than Two Megaverses.


And Beyonder wasn't "just a Multiverse"

Beyonder's Reality encompassed all the Space outside the 616 Multiverse.

That means
Beyonder's Universe was as big as the Omniverse minus a Multiverse.



Again,

Beyonder encompassed all the Infinite Space outside the Multiverse.

This same Infinite Space is what makes up the rest of the Omniverse today,
outside the Multiverse.

How can a multiverse be greater then a megaverse???

And he was a multiverse it stats that oure own multiverse was but a drop in comparison to his, so no matter how you IMO turn this, Beyonder was the total sum of a Multiverse that was infinitely greater then the marvel Multiverse but never the less his energy never expanded into more then a multiverse. And beyonders realm isn't the current omniverse, the omniverse expanded from the 616 reality into what is the omniverse today.

I don't want to follow this track any longer we are basically just running in circles around each other, and we will continue to do so and that will be a waste of nvr's thread.

I have already maked my list regarding how my hierarchy would look if I took levels of omnipotence.

1. Classic Beyonder and Thanos w/ HOTI
2. Classic Molecule Man
3. Living Tribunal

Whatever Mr. Master said is probably right.

And the entire thread probably could have been avoided just by going to Mr. Master's cosmic tiering thread.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Please someone List for me the most powerful of these beings and or Artifacts from the Top to the Bottom

The IG
THe heart of the Infinite
the Living tribunal ( Classic)
The 616 eternity
The classic beyonder
the Current Omniversal LT
The True Beyonders
The infinites
Merlyn
Roma
Brian Braddock
Havok
White Crown Phoenix
Genis vell at his most powerful
MJJ
the Fury
HOM Scarlet witch

I need clarity on just who is omnipotent and who is nearly omnipotent. According to Marvel,

ALL these characters are "omnipotent", but some are more "omnipotent" then others. ( )


I know, I know..... It makes no sense at all, but that's just how things work I guess.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No since the Inhuman gen and the Mutant works as two minus making a plus a Inhuman breeding with a Mutant will have a normal Child. (shown when The Inhumans moved there Home to the moon and Crystal and Magnetos son (cannot remember his name) have a child which was a 100% human.)

Inhumans aren't born with superhuman physiology, mutants are born with it. There is nothing the terrigen mists can't do.

Originally posted by llagrok
Inhumans aren't born with superhuman physiology, mutants are born with it. There is nothing the terrigen mists can't do.

Hey I'm only saying what Reed said.

Originally posted by Galan007
According to Marvel,

ALL these characters are "omnipotent", but some are more "omnipotent" then others. ( )


I know, I know..... It makes no sense at all, but that's just how things work I guess.

Stuff like that pisses me off.

It's like saying that Spiderman is more omnipotent than Captain America who is more omnipotent than Daredevil.

Seriously, if there is a single entity that is more powerful than you are, then you AREN'T omnipotent, no matter how much power you may possess.

Technically, if there is a single entity that is EQUAL to you, you aren't omnipotent, no matter how much power you possess.

Originally posted by Soljer
Stuff like that pisses me off.

It's like saying that Spiderman is more omnipotent than Captain America who is more omnipotent than Daredevil.

Seriously, if there is a single entity that is more powerful than you are, then you AREN'T omnipotent, no matter how much power you may possess.

Technically, if there is a single entity that is EQUAL to you, you aren't omnipotent, no matter how much power you possess.
I normally think of it kinda like the feudal system. A Baron was for all intents and purposes supreme in his land, but his power was still superseded by that of the Duke whose power was still superseded by the King.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I normally think of it kinda like the feudal system. A Baron was for all intents and purposes supreme in his land, but his power was still superseded by that of the Duke whose power was still superseded by the King.

I know exactly what it means - but omnipotence has a very specific definition.

Having LEVELS of omnipotence is outside that very specific definition.

Originally posted by Soljer
Stuff like that pisses me off.

It's like saying that Spiderman is more omnipotent than Captain America who is more omnipotent than Daredevil.

Eh same goes with DC. The Presence is supreme but he was stalemated by the GEB. So there are two supreme beings in DC, when there can only be one.
If you want to stretch it, according to some there are more than that. Some claim Spectre is omnipotent, some claim Michael has the power of God which would make him omnipotent; in short there are a lot of "omnipotent" beings running around in the comic book world.
Originally posted by Soljer
Seriously, if there is a single entity that is more powerful than you are, then you AREN'T omnipotent, no matter how much power you may possess.

Technically, if there is a single entity that is EQUAL to you, you aren't omnipotent, no matter how much power you possess.
Yup, but now you're giving quanchi more reason to start saying Thanos would beat the Presence since GEB stalemated him...

I wasn't saying that it was exclusive to Marvel.

There are far more instances of tiered omnipotence than DC and Marvel.

No me gusta.

Originally posted by Soljer
I wasn't saying that it was exclusive to Marvel.

There are far more instances of tiered omnipotence than DC and Marvel.

No me gusta.
Yo tampoco

Originally posted by Soljer
I know exactly what it means - but omnipotence has a very specific definition.

Having LEVELS of omnipotence is outside that very specific definition.
But if you think about it the reason there's a problem is because that word originates comes from OUR universe, and we don't normally think about anything outside of out universe(except in works of fiction). Humanity generally thinks in purely universal terms, so we haven't really taken the time to come up with a better classification system. In most people's minds there's a God or there's not, and if there is he's omnipotent. Why come up with a word to mean "unlimited reality warping within the boundaries of a single universe, but still subject to the power of beings whose power encompasses the power of more than a single universe" when not one really believes that such a being really exist?

Nearly omnipotent. Nigh omnipotent. Virtually omnipotent.

These are fine.

Omnipotent - 1
Omnipotent - 2
Omnipotent - 3

Is not.

these type of threads can make one crazy

Damn bottom of the page...
Originally posted by darthgoober
But if you think about it the reason there's a problem is because that word originates comes from OUR universe, and we don't normally think about anything outside of out universe(except in works of fiction). Humanity generally thinks in purely universal terms, so we haven't really taken the time to come up with a better classification system. In most people's minds there's a God or there's not, and if there is he's omnipotent. Why come up with a word to mean "unlimited reality warping within the boundaries of a single universe, but still subject to the power of beings whose power encompasses the power of more than a single universe" when not one really believes that such a being really exist?

Originally posted by Utrigita
How can a multiverse be greater then a megaverse???

A or the current Marvel Multiverse is not bigger than a current Marvel Megaverse.

Beyonder's Universe on the other hand,
was Quintillions of times bigger, than the Prime Multiverse of today.

The Prime Multiverse (which houses the 616 Reality)
is the no#1 Multiverse in Marvel.

There are other Multiverses,
but NO bigger and perhaps no smaller than the Prime Multiverse.

Well then ... a Megaverse is a "collection" of Multiverses
(how many exactly no one can say, but Definitely not an infinite # .

Every Multiverse Now in Marvel, individualy is a Drop of Water to an Ocean
when compared to Beyonder's Universe.


If each Multiverse is Drop of water,
Are there that many Multiverses in Marvel to make up an Ocean?

I'm positively sure there aren't.

Beyonder was ridiculous, that's why he was Retconned.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And he was a multiverse it stats that oure own multiverse was but a drop in comparison to his, so no matter how you IMO turn this, Beyonder was the total sum of a Multiverse that was infinitely greater then the marvel Multiverse but never the less his energy never expanded into more then a multiverse.

The thing is you're stamping the term Multiverse on both Entities
as though "Multiverse" meant the same thing in both cases,

when it does not.

The Marvel Multiverse,
and the rest of the Marvel Multiverses
are the same size as the Prime Multiverse was then,
it was the outer region of the Prime Multiverse
that separated and grew into another Multiverse.
(This is why Eternity's Consciousness only reaches across the Prime Multiverse)

Originally posted by Utrigita
And beyonders realm isn't the current omniverse, the omniverse expanded from the 616 reality into what is the omniverse today.

No doubt,
that's the Retcon story that came out Years after Beyonders classic era.

Beyonder's grandeur was interrupted Nov. 86'
when the New Universe was introduced,
the first other Universe Outside the Multiverse.

I now here that at one point that was the creation Beyonder created,
but I'm not too sure if that's conclusive.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I don't want to follow this track any longer we are basically just running in circles around each other, and we will continue to do so and that will be a waste of nvr's thread.

Cool then, I'm just saying it's a mix up of terms
because of the anamoly of supreme power the Beyonder was.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But if you think about it the reason there's a problem is because that word originates comes from OUR universe, and we don't normally think about anything outside of out universe(except in works of fiction). Humanity generally thinks in purely universal terms, so we haven't really taken the time to come up with a better classification system. In most people's minds there's a God or there's not, and if there is he's omnipotent. Why come up with a word to mean "unlimited reality warping within the boundaries of a single universe, but still subject to the power of beings whose power encompasses the power of more than a single universe" when not one really believes that such a being really exist?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Damn bottom of the page... Nice.


But the thing is...

You simply are NOT omnipotent if a greater power exists, period.

"Nigh"-omnipotent is the term that should be used in cases where we have a very powerful being, but not THE MOST powerful being.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nice.


But the thing is...

You simply are NOT omnipotent if a greater power exists, period.

"Nigh"-omnipotent is the term that should be used in cases where we have a very powerful being, but not THE MOST powerful being.

I agree with this. That's a plague that haunts both companies.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree with this. That's a plague that haunts both companies.
I don't remember DC calling anyone Omnipotent but The Presence.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nice.


But the thing is...

You simply are NOT omnipotent if a greater power exists, period.

"Nigh"-omnipotent is the term that should be used in cases where we have a very powerful being, but not THE MOST powerful being.
But again, that's the fault of the English language not the companies. For all intents and purposes Eternity IS omnipotent in that he can pretty much do whatever he wants within himself. There's not really a limit to his power, just his jurisdiction.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But again, that's the fault of the English language not the companies. For all intents and purposes Eternity IS omnipotent in that he can pretty much do whatever he wants within himself. There's not really a limit to his power, just his jurisdiction.

He's not omnipotent. He has beings roaming around in him that are outside of his influence.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But again, that's the fault of the English language not the companies. For all intents and purposes Eternity IS omnipotent in that he can pretty much do whatever he wants within himself. There's not really a limit to his power, just his jurisdiction.

That's true.

Originally posted by Galan007
According to Marvel,

ALL these characters are "omnipotent", but some are more "omnipotent" then others. ( )


I know, I know..... It makes no sense at all, but that's just how things work I guess.

Well, of course it doesn't make sense since it's a comic.

Originally posted by Galan007


"Nigh"-omnipotent is the term that should be used in cases where we have a very powerful being, but not THE MOST powerful being.

"Nigh" omnipotent is hyperbole.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Well, of course it doesn't make sense since it's a comic.

They have to make some sense in order for all of us with different view points to have a focal point of reference. 10 pounds in DC should still be 10 pounds in marvel. Ect.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
They have to make some sense in order for all of us with different view points to have a focal point of reference. 10 pounds in DC should still be 10 pounds in marvel. Ect.

Yeah, how realistic can they get when you have characters how gain powers from being bitten by a radioactive spider?

It's just a comic, and you can only go so far. All that science and realism simply adds depth to characters nothing more.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But again, that's the fault of the English language not the companies. For all intents and purposes Eternity IS omnipotent in that he can pretty much do whatever he wants within himself. There's not really a limit to his power, just his jurisdiction. Yet we know Eternity is not omnipotent in the literal sense.

Why?

Because a greater power exists.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Yeah, how realistic can they get when you have characters how gain powers from being bitten by a radioactive spider?

It's just a comic, and you can only go so far. All that science and realism simply adds depth to characters nothing more.

Even in comics, One isn't omnipotent if they can be beaten.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yet we know Eternity is not omnipotent in the literal sense.

Why?

Because a greater power exists.
Omnipotent is a description of the being's power, not the being's power in regards to everyone else.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Even in comics, One isn't omnipotent if they can be beaten.

I agree with that, unless they wanted to lose. shrug

Originally posted by darthgoober
Omnipotent is a description of the being's power, not the being's power in regards to everyone else. Right.

And we know for a fact that particular being is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Please someone List for me the most powerful of these beings and or Artifacts from the Top to the Bottom

The IG
THe heart of the Infinite
the Living tribunal ( Classic)
The 616 eternity
The classic beyonder
the Current Omniversal LT
The True Beyonders
The infinites
Merlyn
Roma
Brian Braddock
Havok
White Crown Phoenix
Genis vell at his most powerful
MJJ
the Fury
HOM Scarlet witch

I need clarity on just who is omnipotent and who is nearly omnipotent.

How did Scarlett Witch make the list. There are way more beings in MU who could pwn her.

OAA
HOTU
Living Tribunal
Nemesis
Anomaly (Malestrom)
I-Gauntlet host
Infinites
White Crown Phoenix
Bubonicus
Cosmic Compass in this order (Eternity/Galan/Death/Infinity)
Sise-Neg
Classic Beyonder

Just the tip of the iceberg imo.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Yeah, how realistic can they get when you have characters how gain powers from being bitten by a radioactive spider?

It's just a comic, and you can only go so far. All that science and realism simply adds depth to characters nothing more.

Originally posted by Galan007
Right.

And we know for a fact that particular being is not omnipotent.
Sure he is because he can do anything he wants within the boundaries of his infinite self. But because of the nature of cosmics, there exist things OUTSIDE of the boundaries of that infinite self, which opens the door to the possibility of there being a greater power.

to a true supreme being wouldn't you have to have,Omnipotence,omniscience, omnipresence and benevolence?

I figured the only reason why they make so many omnipotent characters is because they want to milk them as much as they can. Face it, omnipotent threats are interesting. But, realistically (and, I use that word lightly) there is no such thing as levels of omnipotence.

Originally posted by lordboo
to a true supreme being wouldn't you have to have,Omnipotence,omniscience, omnipresence and benevolence?
Yes.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sure he is because he can do anything he wants within the boundaries of his infinite self. But because of the nature of cosmics, there exist things OUTSIDE of the boundaries of that infinite self, which opens the door to the possibility of there being a greater power.

If you have limits, you are not omnipotent plain and simple.

Originally posted by lordboo
to a true supreme being wouldn't you have to have,Omnipotence,omniscience, omnipresence and benevolence?
Benevolence is not neccesary.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sure he is because he can do anything he wants within the boundaries of his infinite self. But because of the nature of cosmics, there exist things OUTSIDE of the boundaries of that infinite self, which opens the door to the possibility of there being a greater power. If a character can be beaten, or a greater power then themself exists, then said character is not omnipotent by any means of the word.

Trying to make sense of things like,

"this omnipotent character is more powerful then that omnipotent character", makes you realize how ridiculous comics can be. lol

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
If you have limits, you are not omnipotent plain and simple.
Eternity doesn't really have limits.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Eternity doesn't really have limits. The UN is a greater power then Eternity.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT was supreme within the Marvel Reality below the Molecule Man.

The Beyonder scared the second most powerful entity in Marvel,
and defeated the most powerful being in Marvel as well.


NO beyonder may have scared him but there's no way he could beat LT. LT would wipe him out so easily. He defeated TOAA..... don't think so

Originally posted by Sundipped
How did Scarlett Witch make the list. There are way more beings in MU who could pwn her.

OAA
HOTU
Living Tribunal
Nemesis
Anomaly (Malestrom)
I-Gauntlet host
Infinites
White Crown Phoenix
Bubonicus
Cosmic Compass in this order (Eternity/Galan/Death/Infinity)
Sise-Neg
Classic Beyonder

Just the tip of the iceberg imo.

Sis-Neg doesn't exist anymore.

OAA
HOTI/Nemesis (as in the original Infinity Being)
Classic Beyonder
LT
IG
Cosmic Compass in this order "Multi" (Eternity/InfinityOblivion/Death/Galan in status)
Infinites
White Phoenix
Anomaly (Malestrom)
Bubonicus

Originally posted by Galan007
If a character can be beaten, or a greater power then themself exists, then said character is not omnipotent by any means of the word.

Trying to make sense of things like,

"this omnipotent character is more powerful then that omnipotent character", makes you realize how ridiculous comics can be. lol
Let me ask you this, could an omnipotent being create a boulder so heavy that he himself couldn't lift it?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Let me ask you this, could an omnipotent being create a boulder so heavy that he himself couldn't lift it?

No.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Let me ask you this, could an omnipotent being create a boulder so heavy that he himself couldn't lift it?

An omnipotent character can do whatever they want.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No.
Isn't that a limit to his "omnipotence" if he's unable to do something that he wants?

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
An omnipotent character can do whatever they want.
But if he's unable to lift it, isnt't that a limit to his omnipotence?

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
An omnipotent character can do whatever they want.

Then he would be able to lift the boulder should he want to.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But if he's unable to lift it, isnt't that a limit to his omnipotence?

If he can't lift it, then he does not want to.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
If he can't lift it, then he does not want to.
Then there's a limit to his ability to create the boulder in the first place.

A being who's god would see the futility in the boulder scenario and never do it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Then there's a limit to his ability to create the boulder in the first place.

Yes, the limit is whatever he wants it to be.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
A being who's god would see the futility in the boulder scenario and never do it.
You're speculating, and it doesn't change the fact that there are paradox's that don't make sense and just have to be written off. Eternity's omnipotent, but there are still greater beings.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Yes, the limit is whatever he wants it to be.
It's still a limit which shouldn't exist to an omnipotent being.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Eternity's omnipotent, but there are still greater beings.

Then he's not really omnipotent, that's like saying there is a higher number than infinity.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're speculating, and it doesn't change the fact that there are paradox's that don't make sense and just have to be written off. Eternity's omnipotent, but there are still greater beings.
No he's not. His couldn't stop the hand of the infinite. He can't affect surfer, warlock, thanos and others who are outside of his sphere. He isn't omnipotent. he isn't even all powerful. Which one would have to be in order to be Omnipotent.

Omnipotence?


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8379/beyonderisrealitydw2.th.jpg



http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1592/b3rd6.th.jpg
"I. who utterly dictate ALL Reality"



http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7766/b4qh2.th.jpg
"As long as I conceive of things, they exist...My thoughts EQUAL Reality"



http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3159/beyondercandoanythingml3.th.jpg
" I can do anything"


That's so funny,
he created a Cosmos with a wave of the hand
just to show her he can do anything,
and made it disappear just as fast.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Then he's not really omnipotent, that's like saying there is a higher number than infinity.
No it's not, it's like saying that there's a higher LEVEL of infinity.

darn it, Edit.

Edit

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's still a limit which shouldn't exist to an omnipotent being.

That's not true, an omnipotent being can do whatever he wants including limiting his power.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No it's not, it's like saying that there's a higher LEVEL of infinity.
what level would that be?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No he's not. His couldn't stop the hand of the infinite. He can't affect surfer, warlock, thanos and others who are outside of his sphere. He isn't omnipotent. he isn't even all powerful. Which one would have to be in order to be Omnipotent.
Again omnipotent isn't a comparison of a beings power in relation to others, it's a classification of the being itself. Within his infinite self, there are no limits to his power. The Spectre had "infinite" energies at his disposal in COIE, does that mean that he had just as much power as the Presence itself? And does that mean that Mxy has the ability to take down the Presence just like he did the Spectre?

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
That's not true, an omnipotent being can do whatever he wants including limiting his power.
If he's able to limit his power, than he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again omnipotent isn't a comparison of a beings power in relation to others, it's a classification of the being itself. Within his infinite self, there are no limits to his power. The Spectre had "infinite" energies at his disposal in COIE, does that mean that he had just as much power as the Presence itself? And does that mean that Mxy has the ability to take down the Presence just like he did the Spectre?

the thing is, niether the spectre nor mxy have ever been termed omnipotent by dc.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
the thing is, niether the spectre nor mxy have ever been termed omnipotent by dc. cuz they arent even close.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
the thing is, niether the spectre nor mxy have ever been termed omnipotent by dc.
But the Spectre WAS said to have infinite energies at his disposal, which means that he had just as much energy as the Presence itself.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again omnipotent isn't a comparison of a beings power in relation to others, it's a classification of the being itself.

Omnipotent means you can do whatever you want.


Originally posted by darthgoober

. The Spectre had "infinite" energies at his disposal in COIE, does that mean that he had just as much power as the Presence itself?

What does that have to do with anything, infinite energy is irrelevant to omnipotence. Infact, Omnipotence>Infinite Energy

Originally posted by quanchi112
cuz they arent even close.

No becuz DC isn't an illogical feat whore company who thinks that they have to make more and more omnipotent omni reality rending muties every other day.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If he's able to limit his power, than he's not omnipotent.


He can do whatever he wants, if he couldn't then he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No becuz DC isn't an illogical feat whore company who thinks that they have to make more and more omnipotent omni reality rending muties every other day. dc doesnt even have one supreme being. its just geb tied with the presence.

Originally posted by quanchi112
dc doesnt even have one supreme being. its just geb tied with the presence.

niether does Marvel. thanos only had the power of TOAA. There is another who's equally as powerful called the Collaborator.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
He can do whatever he wants, if he couldn't then he's not omnipotent.
Then you're saying that it's impossible for there to BE an omnipotent being, since an omnipotent being couldn't create a boulder so heavy that he himself couldn't lift it, which is a limitation which an omnipotent being can't have.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
niether does Marvel. thanos only had the power of TOAA. There is another who's equally as powerful called the Collaborator. thanos with the heart was supreme. TOAA is outside the comic. thanos with the heart had no equal in the comic. therefore thanos wheart>presence=geb

So uhh,

Why is the "bolder argument" being brought up?

I think everybody should take the time to read this:
http://deron.meranda.us/topics/infinity/

It explains some of the basics about infinity and why one infinity may not equal another.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Then you're saying that it's impossible for there to BE an omnipotent being, since an omnipotent being couldn't create a boulder so heavy that he himself couldn't lift it, which is a limitation which an omnipotent being can't have.

No, I'm saying an omnipotent character can do whatever he wants including making a bolder that is so heavy that he cannot lift then turns around and lifts it. Also, if a character could not self impose a limitation on himself. He would not be considered omnipotent ,because there is something he cannot do I.E limit himself.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Then you're saying that it's impossible for there to BE an omnipotent being, since an omnipotent being couldn't create a boulder so heavy that he himself couldn't lift it, which is a limitation which an omnipotent being can't have.

Nothing actually prevents an omnipotent being from declaring that untrue and true at the same time. Logic is a limitation that any limited observer naturally tries to place on an omnipotent creature even though there's nothing to say it must (or even should) apply.

Originally posted by Galan007
So uhh,

Why is the "bolder argument" being brought up?
Just to illustrate how unreliable the term "omnipotence" really is and the paradoxes that arise from the word due to the limited perceptions of the human mind. That unreliability doesn't alter the reality of the classification though.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I think everybody should take the time to read this:
http://deron.meranda.us/topics/infinity/

It explains some of the basics about infinity and why one infinity may not equal another. Trying to relate omnipotence to numbers, is flawed logic to begin with.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
No, I'm saying an omnipotent character can do whatever he wants including making a bolder that is so heavy that he cannot lift then turns around and lifts it. Also, if a character could not self impose a limitation on himself. He would not be considered omnipotent ,because there is something he cannot do I.E limit himself.
Exactly, and since there's some kind of limitation present in every step of your rundown the omnipotent being can't really be an omnipotent being.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Nothing actually prevents an omnipotent being from declaring that untrue and true at the same time. Logic is a limitation that any limited observer naturally tries to place on an omnipotent creature even though there's nothing to say it must (or even should) apply.
I agree. That's why I don't have a problem with the "levels of omnipotence" concept, because what's logical doesn't really apply at that level.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Exactly, and since there's some kind of limitation present in every step of your rundown the omnipotent being can't really be an omnipotent being.

That's not true, if there were no limitations to what he can do then he should be able to self impose a limitation on himself. Since he can do whatever he wants. Besides, the limitaation your talking about is self imposed. If it were not, then he wouldn't be omnipotent. Having somekind of limitation is irrelevant, since he decides them and that is within his power.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Just to illustrate how unreliable the term "omnipotence" really is and the paradoxes that arise from the word due to the limited perceptions of the human mind. That unreliability doesn't alter the reality of the classification though. That paradox doesn't really aide your argument though, as the basis behind omnipotence is still there.

If Eternity claimed to be omnipotent, then the UN comes along and destroys him.... Was he really omnipotent to begin with?


Because he was beaten by a greater power.

Originally posted by Galan007
That paradox doesn't really aide your argument though, as the basis behind omnipotence is still there.

If Eternity claimed to be omnipotent, then the UN comes along and destroys him.... Was he really omnipotent to begin with?


Because he was beaten by a greater power.
Again omnipotence is a term to describe the beings power, not the power of the being in relation to others. Logic doesn't really apply when your talking about beings and items that can alter the laws of reality at whim and consequently affect what is or isn't logical.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
That's not true, if there were no limitations to what he can do then he should be able to self impose a limitation on himself. Since he can do whatever he wants. Besides, the limitaation your talking about is self imposed. If it were not, then he wouldn't be omnipotent. Having somekind of limitation is irrelevant, since he decides them and that is within his power.
But if he limits himself, then he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But if he limits himself, then he's not omnipotent.

I disagree. Chosen limitation is simply something that an omnipotent creature happens to be doing from moment to moment. Not using power doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again omnipotence is a term to describe the beings power, not the power of the being in relation to others.

By the very definition of the word, an omnipotent being is greater then ALL others.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But if he limits himself, then he's not omnipotent.

If he couldn't limit himself, how could you say he's omnipotent when he cannot do something I.E. limit himself. He has to be able to do anything to be omnipotent, and that includes being able to limit himself.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I disagree. Chosen limitation is simply something that an omnipotent creature happens to be doing from moment to moment. Not using power doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
But the stipulation isn't that he chooses to lift it, it's that he's unable to lift it without a limitation(that got lost somewhere along the way).

Originally posted by darthgoober
But the stipulation isn't that he chooses to lift it, it's that he's unable to lift it without a limitation(that got lost somewhere along the way).
If he can't chose wether he can lift it or not, then he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
If he couldn't limit himself, how could you say he's omnipotent when there's he cannot do something I.E. limit himself. He has to be able to do anything to be omnipotent, and that includes being able to limit himself.
Originally posted by darthgoober
But the stipulation isn't that he chooses to lift it, it's that he's unable to lift it without a limitation(that got lost somewhere along the way).

I know the stipulation and I repeat:

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
If he can't chose wether he can lift it or not, then he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
I know the stipulation and I repeat:
I don't think you get what I'm saying, I'm saying that if he's already made the choice to create a boulder so heavy that he can't lift it himself without limiting his power, can he do it?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't think you get what I'm saying, I'm saying that if he's already made the choice to create a boulder so heavy that he can't lift it himself without limiting his power, can he do it?

Yes.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Yes.
Then there's a limit to his power because he's unable to lift the boulder.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Then there's a limit to his power because he's unable to lift the boulder.

Yes, as in he can lift the boulder.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Yes, as in he can lift the boulder.
Then he can't create the boulder that's to heavy for him to lift while at full power.

If you're going to debate the whole omnipotence paradox, the only way for a being to be truly omnipotent is to be supralogical, so they could create a rock too heavy to lift and then lift it anyway, because they defy logic. But if they can defy logic, that makes debating or discussing them completely impossible and pointless in the first place.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Then he can't create the boulder that's to heavy for him to lift while at full power.

Yeah, he can because he can do anything.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you're going to debate the whole omnipotence paradox, the only way for a being to be truly omnipotent is to be supralogical, so they could create a rock too heavy to lift and then lift it anyway, because they defy logic. But if they can defy logic, that makes debating or discussing them completely impossible and pointless in the first place.
Exactly. High level cosmics transcend logic and therefor we just have to accept the fact that there are levels of omnipotence.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Yeah, he can because he can do anything.
Do you honestly not see the massive hole in your reasoning?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Exactly. High level cosmics transcend logic and therefor we just have to accept the fact that there are levels of omnipotence.

No, we don't, because there is no such thing as levels of omnipotence. You either are or you ar enot.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
No, we don't, because there is no such thing as levels of omnipotence. You either are or you ar enot.
There may not be in the real world, but it's an established fact in comics.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Do you honestly not see the massive hole in your reasoning?

Compared to yours, your trying to make people swallow the whole level of omnipotence jargon. How can there be a level of being able to do anything?

Originally posted by darthgoober
There may not be in the real world, but it's an established fact in comics.

And, like I said, comics make no sense not supposed to.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Compared to yours, your trying to make people swallow the whole level of omnipotence jargon. How can there be a level of being able to do anything?
Because it's written that way.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because it's written that way. Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
And, like I said, comics make no sense not supposed to.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
And, like I said, comics make no sense not supposed to.
They don't have to for us to debate them. They establish the rules that their characters operate under, and we discuss them within that framework. I never said it made sense, I just said that it IS that way.

Originally posted by darthgoober
They don't have to for us to debate them. They establish the rules that their characters operate under, and we discuss them within that framework.

I know that. . .but, realistically when it comes to omnipotent character vs omnipotent character there should be no winner.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said it made sense, I just said that it IS that way.

I never accused you of saying that.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
I know that. . .but, realistically when it comes to omnipotent character vs omnipotent character there should be no winner.



I never accused you of saying that.
But we don't debate based on realism, otherwise every uppercut from a class 100 character would send the recipient into orbit. The companies have given us a way to debate omnipotence vs omnipotence, so that's what we should use since they're the ones that are truly "omnipotent" in regards to their creations.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But we don't debate based on realism, otherwise every uppercut from a class 100 character would send the recipient into orbit.

Which is why I see physics being brought into debates?

The point is that once you accept supralogical beings, further debate is impossible, since debate is based on logic.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The point is that once you accept supralogical beings, further debate is impossible, since debate is based on logic.
It's not impossible. It WOULD be impossible if the companies didn't establish a framework with which we can debate omnipotent vs omnipotent, but luckily enough they've given us everything we need to do just that.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Which is why I see physics being brought into debates?
I never said that everyone debates correctly...

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not impossible. It WOULD be impossible if the companies didn't establish a framework with which we can debate omnipotent vs omnipotent, but luckily enough they've given us everything we need to do just that.

What frame work, on panel feats?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said that everyone debates correctly...

So, physics should have no place in debates?

But if a being doesn't have to follow logic, then anything could mean anything. You could make any argument, or say literally anything you want about them, and it would be just as valid as anything else.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But if a being doesn't have to follow logic, then anything could mean anything. You could make any argument, or say literally anything you want about them, and it would be just as valid as anything else.

Word

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
What frame work, on panel feats?



So, physics should have no place in debates?
Yes, and also acknowledgment by "lesser" omnipotent beings.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But if a being doesn't have to follow logic, then anything could mean anything. You could make any argument, or say literally anything you want about them, and it would be just as valid as anything else.
Yeah if you wanted to be dense and ignore what's been established by the company. But fortunately enough most people see the sense in just going along with what the companies established.

Galan is hardly a fan of the concept concerning the "levels of omnipotence" but he still acknowledges that system to be in effect and debates within that framework.