Ulic Qel-Droma versus the Jedi Exile.

IKC

Clearly I have been lurking for a year and a half. It can't have been that I found something else to do in my spare time - which makes your constant presence here all the more hilarious. What account is this, your third or fourth?

No, he didn't, and neither did Ulic. Both of them were yielding ground while defending themselves from their opponent's blows.

I made the statement to draw a parallel.

Good enough to get an angered scratch in on a pre-Sith Exar Kun, which is no easy feat considering how shortly later he thrashed Vodo.

Largely irrelevant, really, since she had access to and was trained with the Force and he did not.

Your habit of "begging" for proof is one of the most amusing means of trolling I've seen, considering your total ignorance of source material.

Fact is, Ulic's accomplishment is unmatched.

An "average Jedi" is your biased assumption.

"Running away" (which he clearly didn't do), is your completely biased interpretation of what you've read about material you've never read.

Such as?

I can only name one for certain: Exar Kun, who stalemated him when he had the Force. At that point, you should know, Ulic was at or very near the peak of his power, especially considering that we don't see evidence of growth during the Sith War. Afterwards, Kun goes on to become considerably more powerful and skilled with his blade, especially after he crafts the unique weapon.

Without access to the Force? Of course he is. It's a feat that should be impossible.

I would argue that Freedon Nadd is up there, yes. With extrapolation we can assume that several other entities (Kun, Sadow, Ragnos, et al) are capable of the same thing.

Because of Ulic's unique scenario, we cannot do the same for others besides Exar Kun. No combatant has matched this.

If you weren't a halfwit you'd realize that a combatant with use of the Force would have tremendous advantages over one without access to it.

Since we are speaking about the same entity, as I pointed out above it is reasonable to interpret the DLotS/Sith War Ulic as Ulic at his top form. There is not a chance nor is there evidence that his skills have done anything but deteriorate from the events at the end of the Sith War to those of Redemption.

In other words, no matter how good the Ulic of Redemption is, he was exponentially better during DLotS and TSW.

Neither dialogue nor narration indicates that said injury (which was by then weeks old) hampered Ulic during the fight, nor during the events of the Sith War. Indeed, the injury is not mentioned when he fights Mandalore, nor when he assaults Coruscant. It's shown briefly before his trial and it's finally mentioned before he kills his brother.

That and, as stated above, Exar got much better after this fight.

darthsith19

1. prove that it was weeks old.
2. The dialogue doesn't mention it, yes, but if you are injured enough that you are forced to wear bandages, it will affect you in a fight.
3. He fights Mandalore when again? Before fighting Exar? Then he could have received the injury after the fight with Mandalore, or he was good enough to beat Mandalore despite the injury. It doesn't change the fact that he was injured when he fought Exar.
4. Prove that Exar's saber skills increased greatly after the fight.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by IKC
Clearly I have been lurking for a year and a half. It can't have been that I found something else to do in my spare time - which makes your constant presence here all the more hilarious. What account is this, your third or fourth?
First actually. But please, make yourself look dumber.

Oh really? I believe the idea of a sparring match doesn't involve claws. That doesn't have ANY bearing on her lightsaber abilities, but thanks for pointing out the constant irrelevance in your posts.

Actually is is relevant, because if you're going to make a ridiculous claim such as Ulic possibly being the greatest duelest ever, you'd have to do it with more than that feat.

You post, I respond, you start talking shit. You're right. You HAVE no idea what the term troll means.

Wonderful... So is Nadd's. So is Nihilus'. They must be g0ds, right IKC?

LOL.. Look who's talking about bias. An average Jedi is what she is shown to be. If you believe it otherwise, prove up. Unfortunately for you, I have the material involving Sylvar (despite your hilarious belief that I don't), and sylvar doesn't do anything impressive.

By constantly claiming that I don't have material, you are making yourself appear dumber in every post. Even if I DIDNT have the material (which I do), I could always find Redemption at SWTimeline.

And practices with it for how long exactly? Yet again, your assumption that Ulic could be the best ever because he didn't get killed in a lightsaber duel by a force user, is not only hilarious but ridiculous as well.

Except you don't know what Sadow is capable of, other than chucking a brick and creating illusions. We know Ragnos was powerful but we don't know what he was capable of.

If you weren't a halfwit you wouldn't make a ridiculous assertion such as Ulic being the best because he retreated and didn't get killed by a force user.

Obviously.

-Blasmaster-

Ulic wins. The Exile is strong in her own right beating Sion and especially Traya. She'll put up a fight, but Ulic is just too strong for her.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really? I believe the idea of a sparring match doesn't involve claws. That doesn't have ANY bearing on her lightsaber abilities, but thanks for pointing out the constant irrelevance in your posts.

Using her claws is actually her performing some combat action. That's like saying Maul didn't do a lightsaber fight against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon because he was jumping, kicking and punching with his martial art skills. That doesn't make sense.

That can only come from a person who didn't read the comics.
- she cleaved Kun's helmet into pieces with one of her claws. I'd really like to know how strong somebody must be and how tough those claws must be to archieve that feat.
- in the Battle of Coruscant she almost effortlessly cuts her way through the minions of Aleema and Ulic - this when one of the Jedi says that they might possibly die before that confrontation
- she wrecks serveral Massassi with her claws without drawing her weapon. Notice how all Massassi use the Dark Side to boost their combat abilities.

I don't think that you've gotten the point, DS. Lucas himself in the TPM commentary says that a Jedi should be "invincible" if not outmatched by far superior numbers or far superior fire power (both happening in the arena on Geonosis for example). The list of people able to defeat Jedi in melee combat is extremely short and even those have to rely supernatural advantages (Durge, Grievous) or dirty tricks (Jango Fett during the battle of Galindraan).

Now Ulic has none of that. He's a regular human by the time of Redemption who happens to have had some lightsaber training. That's it. Now he's attacked by a Jedi. In general Jedi can move at speeds that would be visible to a non-force-user only as blurs. They can enchant there strength to a quite superhuman level as well and they do have precognition.

Technically Sylvar should have wtfdestroyed Ulic in seconds and we saw quite tought melee combatants (Yusanis, the Echani sisters, Mandalore) getting downed by Jedi within seconds. Why ? Because you can't withstand a Jedi in melee combat if you aren't a force user yourself or have access to other superhuman abilities. Yet Ulic without his force powers and without such abilities still managed to do so. He archieved something that should have been totally impossible. He did simply hold on against an enraged Jedi in melee combat.

He must have been outstanding when it comes down to raw bladework because otherwise this would have been impossible. And he was no where near his prime when he fought Sylvar. You might ask yourself what happens if you give a guy that can last against a Jedi without special abilities the same abilities the Jedi fighting against him had. Hmm...

And on a sidenote: I don't know why you're again trying to change the direction of that thread into some "let's discuss general topics" nonsense here. This is Ulic VS the Exile.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Using her claws is actually her performing some combat action. That's like saying Maul didn't do a lightsaber fight against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon because he was jumping, kicking and punching with his martial art skills. That doesn't make sense.
I don't understand how you come up with that comparison. The better comparison would be Qui Gon getting a kick or a punch in on Maul. That doesn't mean he's a better lightsaber combatant, nor does it actually have anything to do with his lightsaber abilities.

I'm actually looking at DLOTS comic 1 of 6 in which he puts Crado on his ass and is fighting Sylvar, so yes I have it. Still, how does this have anything to do with her lightsaber abilities, which seem average at best?
She beat Aleema's minions, ok so? She put 1 or 2 Massassi on their ass, and then the big Massassi warrior put her on her ass. How is this evidence of her allegedly uber lightsaber abilities?

Tell me Nai, how many Jedi/sith have we seen move with blurring speeds in saber combat? So far I can only name two. Luke and Sidious (unless I'm forgetting some). There is absolutely no evidence that Sylvar did any of that. In fact she was swinging widly at Ulic trying to kill her.

I never said he wasn't outstanding. I recognize him as a saber prodigy and one of the saber greats.

When someone makes a ridiculous assertion, wouldn't you question it Nai?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't understand how you come up with that comparison. The better comparison would be Qui Gon getting a kick or a punch in on Maul. That doesn't mean he's a better lightsaber combatant, nor does it actually have anything to do with his lightsaber abilities.

You realize how this is contradicting you assertion in the other thread that Anakin must be superior with a lightsaber in comparison to Dookue when he defeated the Sith Lord by immobilizing Dooku's weaponhand with his mechanical hand ?

I never stated that it makes Sylvar a superior lightsaber combatant or duellist. The point is that "average Jedi" doesn't fit as description for Sylvar as she has proven that she's quite dangerous in combat.

Once more. I'm referring to here combat prowess in general and not to her lightsaber skills alone. The evidence simply shows that Sylvar can dash out some serious damage when enraged and she was enraged when fighting against Ulic.

Yes. You're forgetting quite some people here, DS. Mace movements where descriped as "invisible" in Shatterpoint, Kar Vastors as "lightning fast", Depa is obviously able to match that speed. Yoda in the RotS movie deflects more than 40 blaster bolts in 3 seconds and I can't follow his movements really. Bane in PoD was descriped as moving so fast that it seemed to the people watching him that the time had stopped. And we have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM performing their force speed action while running away from the Droidekas on board of the Trade federation ship.

Force speed is a basic ability, DS. I don't see why somebody wouldn't use it in combat. One could argue that the movie interpretations are just slow motion evidence of the actual lightsaber fights. And even in those the people are moving quite fast (Yoda VS Sidious and Obi-Wan VS Anakin in RotS, Yoda vs Dooku in AotC).

The point is, DS, that his assertion wasn't as rediculous as it might seem to you. Ulic while sacrificing all of his advantages, was capable of beating the best warrior of an entire race of fighters (Mandalore). He, without his force powers, was clearly able to withstand the ferious assault of an enraged Jedi over some minutes - and that while still limiting himself because he didn't want to hurt Sylvar. We've never seen any other regular human pulling something like that off - not even remotely close.

So if you limit it to sheer combat abilities, Ulic might be the best combatant ever in the SW universe. That doesn't change the fact that some people possessing greater force mastery or an unparalleled connection to the force (like Luke for example, or Sidious) would still defeat Ulic (even in top shape when having his force powers) in a lightsaber duel.

On the other handside even Exar Kun, who was definitely one of the best duellists and most powerful beings in the SW universe, wasn't capable of claiming an advantage over Ulic in a straight forward lightsaber duel. So I can clearly see even people like Sidious and Luke having problems with Ulic in his top shape and I definitely don't see how the Exile should be able to defeat him.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
You realize how this is contradicting you assertion in the other thread that Anakin must be superior with a lightsaber in comparison to Dookue when he defeated the Sith Lord by immobilizing Dooku's weaponhand with his mechanical hand ?
I don't recall Anakin doing such a thing but I'll take a look.

She pwned 2 Massassi warriors and got pwned by the third one Nai.

Well I specifically omitted Qui Gon and Obiwan because they didn't do it in saber combat.

Nai, you don't see why someone couldn't use that incredibly speed in saber combat? I could. You clearly have to have a certain level of force mastery coupled with saber skill or you'll cut yourself to pieces. This is why we see the best of the best (Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Mace), using it.

It is ridiculous Nai. You are saying "He was able to do this this and that without the force, so how much MORESO could he do with the use of the force"? You're basically making the claim that his skills are exponentially better with the use of the force, something we can't really quantify.

I'm not sure about that Nai. You've got Dooku, Mace, Yoda, Jacen, and of course Sidious and Luke/

Exar Kun wasn't at his peak when he battled Ulic. He was at his peak during the Sith War, with his double blade. Also, I don't see the likes DE Sidious or NJO Luke having any kind of difficulty with Ulic in saber combat. After their fight in DE and after Luke going through an army of Vong, they separate themselves from the rest of the pack. Ulic would have good fights with the likes of Yoda and Mace, but would ultimately lose.

jujubaka

exile is good in bed not fighting, ulic wins...

Allankles

I take the Exile in this.

The reasons:

The Exile has beaten better opposition overall.

The Exile is at the very least is a master swordsman if not an outstandingly exceptional one. Her ability to learn her opponents lightsbaer techniques and force forms very quickly after brief observation makes her well equipped to take down powerful opponnents in one - on - one situations. She canonically knows at least three lightsaber forms to Ulic's zero (unknown).

And before anyone tries to make an uneducated rebuttal towards this comment think about this.... Just about every distinguished Jedi that lived to see past their 25th birthday is a master swordsman, the lightsaber is their primary weapon for some 20 odd years at least, they are all at least master swordsmen. From Luminara Undulu to Sora Bulq to Ulic and Malak.

The question is always (as it is in this case) whether they are exceptional enough to distinguish themselves from their peers. Ulic was quite easily among the best of his time but nothing about what he accomplished puts him over the Exile.

Ulic's biggest combat victory was defeating Warb Null a dark sider nowhere on the level of the Sith Lords in Kotor.

He also cut down the powerful King Ommin, but to be fare to Ommin he was a half zombie barely able to stand without a supporting exoskeleton.

He later faced Kun in a brief encounter but the incident only proved that Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more. Beyond those feats Ulic has done nothing of exceptional note.

The Exile meanwhile aside from beating a more powerful, non paralyzed version of Ommin in Kreia, has stood up to a Sion powered by Malachor 5 and defeated an academy worth of Sith many of whom could siphon force energy from their attackers.

Advent

Originally posted by Allankles
He later faced Kun in a brief encounter but the incident only proved that Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more.

That would only be correct if we chose to ignore the statement in the Darkside Sourcebook, which makes it clear that the bout between Ulic and Kun could have lasted quite a while before any victor would arise.

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours " (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

It doesn't even state that Kun would be able to win, so it's completely ridiculous to say that all it proved was he could battle Kun for a short while "and nothing more".

I'd easily say from those sentences alone, that Ulic was nigh completely on par with Kun in terms of dueling (prior to creating his double bladed lightsaber, however).

Gideon

It's weird. I was just checking out some old Advent arguments.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
She pwned 2 Massassi warriors and got pwned by the third one Nai.

I'm not sure what scene you are talking about but I was referring to the fight in the Senate Chamber. Sylvar takes out 3 or 4 Massassi at once and later gets owned by Kun.

Which you can't state like this. The movie interpretation doesn't show them using force speed in combat. I gave you a reason for this: If they would, the audience wouldn't be able to follow the fights. Yet, looking through the novels, almost any fight involving a Jedi / Sith there is done with superhuman speed. And I doubt that Sylvar is an exception there.

What kind of illogical assertion is that, DS ? If you have learned not to cut yourself with a lightsaber once you wouldn't suddenly do so because going at a higher level of speed. The movements stay the same. You just perform them faster. And since even Padawans are shown to use force speed, I doubt that a verteran Jedi Knight isn't capable of doing the same.

OMG. Read that statement of yours DS. So those additional force based skills, that - according to the creator of the SW universe - are making Jedi "invincible" in combat are not making a fight exceptionally stronger ? I'd call a considerable boost in strength and speed coupled with precognition a very huge advantage and I really don't see how somebody can even attempt to argue that, DS.

And who of them do you think could hold off an enraged Jedi without having access to the force, DS ? I guess Yoda, Dooku and Sidious can't because being limited to their raw physical abilities wouldn't be good for them. Jacen's and Luke's abilities with a lightsaber are very much dependant on their level of force mastery. That leaves Mace Windu out of that list. Possibly.

Post DE Luke had his ass handed to him by a guy that received some of Kun's knowledge and was almost killed by Gantoris when he assaulted Luke with a dual-phase lightsaber. Doesn't seem so as if DE Luke or Sidious do play in their own league when it comes to combat.

Gideon

Yoda is, definately. Sidious? Probably. However, Dooku might not be after all. It's said in Dark Rendezvous mentions he's in better shape than most men half his age. But I don't know if this is because of the Force or maybe SW medical tech helps.

Lightsnake

Do you actually read the statement I could copy and paste every time on Luke and Palpatine's combat abilities circa DE?

1. Luke was attacked on both sides by Kun and Kyp, and I somehow doubt any teacher included "OK, Luke....this is what you do when assaulted by your renegade student AND a long dead Sith Ghost surprising you while you're trying not to harm said student!"
Why do you think Kun didn't dare try anything with Luke until that moment?
2. Notice Luke held back against Gantoris horribly and was more focused on keeping Gantoris from falling to the Dark Side?

Compare and contrast that fight to Luke and Palpatine flying across the room at speeds too fast for any eye to follow?

Gideon

Didn't you say that the audio drama depicts Palpatine and Luke moving at such speeds that they were killing nearby Imperial personnel?

-Blasmaster-

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm not sure what scene you are talking about but I was referring to the fight in the Senate Chamber. Sylvar takes out 3 or 4 Massassi at once and later gets owned by Kun.

DS was talking about the time Kun went to Ossus:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9774/talesofthejedithesithwarc2.th.jpg

Although to be fair, I dont think its a good idea to cite that instance to prove that Sylvar is necessarily weak, DS. The Massassi warriors arent exatly your typical non-Jedi/Sith warriors who are weak. Nadd stated that, unlike their ancestors, these Massassi were powerful dark side beings, due to the Sith Alchemy of Naga Sadow himself. Nadd followed by saying that they were worthy of being mastered by Kun.

So Sylvar taking out a number of Massassi warriors, sometimes 2 or even 3 at once, is already impressive in my opinion. And the one who owned her isnt exactly your typical Massassi warrior, as that one was way taller and bigger than his brethrens. Either that was an Elite Massassi warrior or Exar Kun mutated it a little bit to become even stronger, just like what he did to the Massassi priest days before he went to Ossus

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda is, definately. Sidious? Probably. However, Dooku might not be after all. It's said in Dark Rendezvous mentions he's in better shape than most men half his age. But I don't know if this is because of the Force or maybe SW medical tech helps.

Sidious doesn't strike me as being too impressive in terms of raw physical abilities, Escape. And Dooku ? He might be in better shape than most people half of his age. Still the regular 40 year old wouldn't be able to fend of a Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Do you actually read the statement I could copy and paste every time on Luke and Palpatine's combat abilities circa DE?

1. Luke was attacked on both sides by Kun and Kyp, and I somehow doubt any teacher included "OK, Luke....this is what you do when assaulted by your renegade student AND a long dead Sith Ghost surprising you while you're trying not to harm said student!"
Why do you think Kun didn't dare try anything with Luke until that moment?

Lightsnake. Once more: This is stupid. If I may remind you: Luke enters the roof with his lightsaber ignited, clearly ready to fight - according to you he, despite of that, is still caught offguard by Kun and Kyp ? Laughable. Then one of them pretty much short-circuits his lightsaber before he's being attacked directly. Once more he isn't capable of defending himself against Kyp alone before Kun finally rips Luke's spirit from his body. It even says that all defences he tries are failing.

And why I think Kun didn't attack Luke until that point ? Because obviously he was trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side which is pretty evident in the scenes in which he appears to Luke as Vader.

Notice how Luke was still almost killed when Gantoris increased the length of his blade ?

Which is basically the general fighting speed for Jedi and Sith in the SW universe, Lightsnake ? Rather annoying when one hyperbole applies to pretty much everybody in a certain storyline, isn't it ?

Darth Sexy

Excuse me Nai? Show me an instance where two NON masters are fighting at the speed of Luke and Sidious. Please. In fact, show me an instance where two combatants are so damn powerful that all of the force users across the galaxy feel their battle, and where the stormtroopers next to the combatants all fall down dead. This is ridiculous.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sidious doesn't strike me as being too impressive in terms of raw physical abilities, Escape. And Dooku ? He might be in better shape than most people half of his age. Still the regular 40 year old wouldn't be able to fend of a Jedi Knight.
Dooku can kick a man a fraction of his age across the room and in DE, Palpatine outmuscles Luke in his clone body and his natural speed is amazing.
Not to mention he survives getting hit over the head by several tons of machinery

Lightsnake. Once more: This is stupid. If I may remind you: Luke enters the roof with his lightsaber ignited, clearly ready to fight - according to you he, despite of that, is still caught offguard by Kun and Kyp ? Laughable. Then one of them pretty much short-circuits his lightsaber before he's being attacked directly. Once more he isn't capable of defending himself against Kyp alone before Kun finally rips Luke's spirit from his body. It even says that all defences he tries are failing.
Take it up with the text and not me, Nai, because it clearly says Luke does NOT want to harm Kyp.
It also says something, I repeat, that AGAIN: Luke's defenses are useless when he's already hit by them, and that you continuously tend to ignore this point:
Not a single one of Luke's three mentors have taught him what to do against a Force ghost, or against this technique. Think Obi-wan had time to mention it? Yoda? Think Palpatine would have told him? Or perhaps one of the few Holocrons? I'm certain in between basic points, Luke'd have made sure to have gotten specific information on just that scenario....rather than being a clever trap by Kun, you're trying to hype it up into Luke's incredible deficiency. Bit unfair, no?
And yeah, Luke really expected the sudden appearance of a Sith Ghost in addition to Kyp, makes perfect sense, Nai.

And it's evident that isn't going to work right off the bat. Is Kun crazy enough to continue to believe it

Notice that's because he had no idea Gantoris would have any knowledge of how to do that? Notice because he was surprised by his star pupil suddenly trying to kill him and having knowledge he shouldn't have? Notice Luke regains himself shortly thereafter and ends the fight because he realizes just how close Gantoris is to the Dark Side?

And quite the short time later, Corran Horn, for whom length increasing is a signature move with his saber, realizes he'd be good for nothing except to hold Luke's cloak in a fight?

Including to the senses of other force sensitives 'any eye, Nai'...coupled with how fast they were flying across the room and only distinguishable whatsoever by the sheer raw power emanating from them...
Yes, Nai, seems incredibly basic! Especially considering they're directly stated to be moving at speeds totally undetectable to any eye. That means, I don't care if Leia, or TK421, or Jabba the Hutt or Marka Ragnos, or Kar Vastor, or Watto himself is watching: if they fall under the 'any eye' category, they wouldn't be able to see the speeds those two fought at.
The same has never been applied to Ulic or Exar, or Naga Sadow or Ludo Kressh, or Yoda, or Mace, or practically any one else in the SW galaxy. Period.

Rather annoying when you absolutely love to downplay this. I'm sick and tired of you throwing out 'hyperbole' on it, Nai. Either show me something contradicting it, show me something better than it, show me ANYTHING in your argument instead of defaulting on an easy way out that means you don't have to argue the feat itself, or accept it,. because you've ignored it once too often.
You can deal with the narration stating Luke is a master duelist (DE issue 1), you can deal with the narration stating Palpatine is one of the finest duelists the galaxy had ever seen, that his skills were 'flawless' and Luke only stood a chance at the end, given the avatar like states they both had achieved, given that he's able to force Yoda into a fight of his life in a much older and less fit body, with less mastery of the Force.

They're both master swordsmen. There's nothing more complicated than that, so stop trying to force your interpretation and opinion onto clear canon. I don't care what it 'strikes you as,' Nai, start looking at what is. If I can admit Exar Kun and Ulic are two of the best duelists ever and can stand a good chance against the likes of Mace and Yoda in combat, you can damn well swallow your pride on this matter.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm not sure what scene you are talking about but I was referring to the fight in the Senate Chamber. Sylvar takes out 3 or 4 Massassi at once and later gets owned by Kun.
I was referring to Ossus actually and my point was that her apparently better than average combat prowess isnt synonymous with her saber abilities, which we really haven't seen.

Show me ANY proof of this. I know this is the interpretation for the Sidious and Mace fight, but show me other instances where the actual fight had both combatants with this incredible speed. Nobody has ever shown anything like DE Sidious and Luke.

Lets get one thing straight Nai. Knowing how to use force speed in no way means you know how to use force speed in a duel. They're different things Nai. Just because Obiwan and Qui Gon can run at incredible speeds, doesn't mean they know how to apply this certain mastery of the force into saber combat.

What do you mean Jacen and Luke's abilities are very much dependant on their force mastery? Are you basing all of this on the simple fact that NONE of them were fighting without the force? Lets not forget that Luke picked up a blade at 19 and already at 26, he was a master swordsman. How do you know Ulic's force abilities weren't good? You're basically saying that because Ulic had to fight without the force and didn't die from it, he is superior to other saber users. This does NOT warrant the "best saber duelist ever" title.

This has been addressed perfectly by lightsnake.

Lightsnake

And also, while I'm addressing the issues of leapfrogging powers...

Nai, do Mara and Luke suck because of the little incident in Survivor's Quest?

Darth_Glentract

Allankles

Originally posted by Advent

That would only be correct if we chose to ignore the statement in the Darkside Sourcebook, which makes it clear that the bout between Ulic and Kun could have lasted quite a while before any victor would arise.

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours " (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

It doesn't even state that Kun would be able to win, so it's completely ridiculous to say that all it proved was he could battle Kun for a short while "and nothing more".

I'd easily say from those sentences alone, that Ulic was nigh completely on par with Kun in terms of dueling (prior to creating his double bladed lightsaber, however).

Not ignore it... entirely, but it is refutable, given how brief its description and depiction is in the actual narrative i.e. the comics. Besides that Kun's skill level is not really definable, given the lack of top quality opposition he faced. Don't mention his master or Odan Uur (sp?) I know all about them, and they were certainly nowhere near top quality fighters, certainly not when compared to Kreia or Sion.

Advent

Originally posted by Allankles
Not ignore it... entirely, but it is refutable

Hardly.

Do elaborate though, considering there's nothing to "refute" when the statement is not ambiguous nor does anything in the source material itself trump it.

The length of their battle in the comics means exactly squat, as it's plainly stated that "they're battle might have gone on for hours" in another canonical source. Had it not been for the interruption of Ragnos, they likely would've dueled much, much longer (as its said), which proves that Ulic could go toe-to-toe with Kun in an extensive duel.

It certainly counters the assertion that "Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more".

I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with anything, Allankles. Your post strongly implied that Kun was, in actuality, better than Ulic was, which obviously wasn't the case as several sources claim they were evenly matched (and would be for some time if the duel continued).

I'm essentially saying that, at that point in time, Ulic and Kun were virtually on par. And of course, that Ulic could've lasted longer (and possibly won), which should have been apparent without reading any additional sources other than DLotS.

What in the blue hell are you talking about, Allankles? This is completely irrelevant to my points. I'm not here to argue Kun's or Ulic's skill level in comparison to the Exile's.

Moreover, why would I even put Odan's name into this when Exar hadn't even faced him until he mastered Sadow's knowledge left on Yavin? He clearly grew in power at that point. Which the same thing applies for the second confrontation with Vodo, he had already created his double bladed lightsaber and unique style by that point (which was stated to be an "improvement" wink

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Allankles
I take the Exile in this.

The reasons:

The Exile has beaten better opposition overall.

Who is this better opposition? The Exile has faced the following:

Sion: The Exile only defeated Sion through a mind game concerning Kreia. Without this disadvantage Sion would have won. Ulic has no such disadvantage for the Exile to exploit.

Nihilus: Nihilus has never been shown to be especially skilled in lightsaber combat. Nihilus lost because he was weakened before the fight TWICE and was triple-teamed.

Kreia: It was shown that Kreia loved the Exile more than anyone else in the galaxy. Why would she want to kill the Exile? Also note that Kreia's "big power" technique is Force Drain, which doesn't appear to work on the Exile. If it did the Exile would have lost that match to a Kreia willing to kill her.

Atris: Atris was a historian and has never been demonstrated to be a good fighter. She was on the Council, yes, but so was Coleman Trebor. Not exactly an impressive win.

Bottom Line: All of the Exile's victory's came from either fighting weakened opponents, fighting opponents that did not want to kill her, or winning through mind-games. Ulic would have none of the disadvantage's that have given the Exile any of her impressive kills.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Exile is at the very least is a master swordsman if not an outstandingly exceptional one. Her ability to learn her opponents lightsbaer techniques and force forms very quickly after brief observation makes her well equipped to take down powerful opponnents in one - on - one situations. She canonically knows at least three lightsaber forms to Ulic's zero (unknown).

This is ridiculous. Claiming that Ulic, the second most powerful person in his era didn't know at least one lightsaber form scream's ignorance on your part.

We know that he stalemated Exar, AFTER Exar was directly stated by Vodo to have COMPLETED his lightsaber training. Ulic is a pimp with the sword. The Exile on the otherhand took several hours to learn a forr; as stated by Vrook, to a "rough" level.

Bottom Line: The Exile's ability to learn lightsaber techniques is useless in a one-on-one lightsaber fight as she cannot learn it before the fight ends.

Originally posted by Allankles
And before anyone tries to make an uneducated rebuttal towards this comment think about this.... Just about every distinguished Jedi that lived to see past their 25th birthday is a master swordsman, the lightsaber is their primary weapon for some 20 odd years at least, they are all at least master swordsmen. From Luminara Undulu to Sora Bulq to Ulic and Malak.

Yet there are those who stand above all others in their time, including other Masters. Yoda and Mace were far above the rest of their time; Bane stood out above the rest in his. Exar and Ulic were the same way for their's.

Originally posted by Allankles
The question is always (as it is in this case) whether they are exceptional enough to distinguish themselves from their peers. Ulic was quite easily among the best of his time but nothing about what he accomplished puts him over the Exile.

Exar is capable of outright destroying basically anyone in the Exile's time, yet Ulic appears capable of stalemating him in lightsaber combat. By the same logic Ulic would defeat anyone in the Exile times aswell.

Originally posted by Allankles
Ulic's biggest combat victory was defeating Warb Null a dark sider nowhere on the level of the Sith Lords in Kotor.

Any proof for this statement?

Originally posted by Allankles
He also cut down the powerful King Ommin, but to be fare to Ommin he was a half zombie barely able to stand without a supporting exoskeleton.

As the bodies pile up...

Originally posted by Allankles
He later faced Kun in a brief encounter but the incident only proved that Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more. Beyond those feats Ulic has done nothing of exceptional note.

Advent has already proven you wrong on this point. I might also add that Ulic defeated Mandalore, Cay Qul-Droma, and Satal Keto. There's three impressive feats you glossed over. Looks like you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Exile meanwhile aside from beating a more powerful, non paralyzed version of Ommin in Kreia, has stood up to a Sion powered by Malachor 5 and defeated an academy worth of Sith many of whom could siphon force energy from their attackers.

1. Where the hell do you get the idea that Ommin and Kreia are basically that same? I could also state that Kreia was crippled by her love for the Exile far worse than Ommin's phisical limitation's restricted him.

2. As was previously stated, the Exile only defeated Sion through a mind game. Sion was superior in strength-of-arms, which is what is most important in a contest against an opponent she has never met before.

3. She killed a bunch of relative weaklings. Whoopie...not. Slyvar, who was MUCH weaker than Ulic was taking out 3 or 4 of Sadow's enhanced Massassi at once.

I think it's quite clear that Ulic wins this.

tulakhordpwns

If you play as a darkside exile then you are able to learn the forms mid battle. This is not the canon version but if the game shows exile being able to do it, I am sure she could in this battle.

Darth Sexy

Wow, i've never read so much stupid shit.. Thanks Allankles.

Advent

Allankles told me to tell you "you're welcome", as he's currently unavailable writing more stupid shit.

Darth Sexy

Thank you Advent.

Allankles

Originally posted by Advent
Hardly.

Do elaborate though, considering there's nothing to "refute" when the statement is not ambiguous nor does anything in the source material itself trump it.

I already did. The narrative never depicts, describes or implies that the fight lasted hours. Any "canonical" source to the contrary is refutable by its lack of relation to the actual narrative : in this case the comics literally painting a vastly different picture than the source book.

In other words the lack of evidence in the narration makes the description of the source book appear less credible and more precisely less relevant (than might have been the case without the comics).

Originally posted by Advent
The length of their battle in the comics means exactly squat, as it's plainly stated that .

Already addressed above. So what value is the narrative? The narrative takes presedence over all other sources because it is the only place these characters exist. The narrative begets the source books and visual guides not virce versa.

Originally posted by Advent
I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with anything, Allankles. Your post strongly implied that Kun was, in actuality, better than Ulic was, which obviously wasn't the case as several sources claim they were evenly matched (and would be for some time if the duel continued).

Sorry, the statememt carried a bit of history with it. You know.... trying to squash recurring counterarguments before they rear their empty heads. The whole point was to make a case from a different angle, by evaluating Kun's skill level based on evidence.

Originally posted by Advent
Moreover, why would I even put Odan's name into this when Exar hadn't even faced him until he mastered Sadow's knowledge left on Yavin? He clearly grew in power at that point. Which the same thing applies for the second confrontation with Vodo, he had already created his double bladed lightsaber and unique style by that point (which was stated to be an "improvement" wink

.

Not arguing his power level, just questioning the value of those feats in determining Kun's skill level in combat. The point being Vodo and Odan weren't much of a challenge, either because of Kun's power or because of their limited abilities. Either way it doesn't prove much about Kun, and questions the value of the feat to Ulic compared to the Exile's feats.

Whereas Ulic never beat a trully powerful opponent (Ommin's fragility made him an extremely vulnerable opponent so he doesn't count),The Exile beat at least two, if not three very powerful opponents.

Darth Sexy

You are 100% incorrect, as usual Allankles. There are sources that COMPLEMENT other sources, such as Advent's source that describes the fight between Ulic and Exar Kun. It is not contradictory to anything, and it is 100% canon. Before posting again, I suggest you read the canon policies, as you have shown absolutely no understanding of them.

Advent

Firstly, perhaps I should show you the entire quote, as I believe you're misinterpreting it (which you're not necessarily at fault for).

The quote, in its entirety is:

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith Lords, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

In other words,

Originally posted by Advent
Had it not been for the interruption of Ragnos, they likely would've dueled much, much longer (as its said), which proves that Ulic could go toe-to-toe with Kun in an extensive duel.

It certainly counters the assertion that "Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more".

The Darkside Sourcebook isn't stating that they're battle did, in fact, "go on for hours", but rather that it could have (if Ragnos never appeared).

Which would still be contrary to what your initial post implied, as Ulic was quite clearly on par with Kun in regards to dueling.

That would also mean everything else I stated was absolutely correct, and that the statement still holds water given the DSSB is not attempting to claim something that didn't happen actually happened.

Secondly, for the last two points of your post, they're relevancy concerning my argument is none, ergo you can address them with others.

Allankles

Originally posted by Advent
Firstly, perhaps I should show you the entire quote, as I believe you're misinterpreting it (which you're not necessarily at fault for).

The quote, in its entirety is:

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith Lords, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

In other words,

The Darkside Sourcebook isn't stating that they're battle did, in fact, "go on for hours", but rather that it could have (if Ragnos never appeared).

Which would still be contrary to what your initial post implied, as Ulic was quite clearly on par with Kun in regards to dueling.

That would also mean everything else I stated was absolutely correct, and that the statement still holds water given the DSSB is not attempting to claim something that didn't happen actually happened.

Secondly, for the last two points of your post, they're relevancy concerning my argument is none, ergo you can address them with others.

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought we'd be having an argument over the credibility of both sources.

And though the quote suggests Ulic was on the same level it doesn't negate my earlier point which is that Ulic only did briefly engage with Kun and nothing more. Take my comment how you will, but their encounter was brief and nothing else. By that evidence my comment still holds water as it doesn't contradict the simple facts: the fight merely proved Ulic could hang with Kun in a breif exchange regardless of what the source book implies.

Darth Sexy

You're apparently not understanding. The DSSB states that they could have fought for HOURS and it would have been a stalemate. So you can call this a brief encounter, but it is a testament to his saber abilities. Ulic is no doubt one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the SW universe, and there's absolutely nothing that suggests the Exile could even last a few minutes with him, without getting wtfpwned.

-Blasmaster-

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who is this better opposition? The Exile has faced the following:

Hold on, Hold on. I agree that Ulic wins, but lets get something straight here:

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract Sion: The Exile only defeated Sion through a mind game concerning Kreia. Without this disadvantage Sion would have won. Ulic has no such disadvantage for the Exile to exploit.

Incorrect. The Exile beat Sion through a combination of mind games AND literally beating him 4 times in their match. Remember that you will only erode his will after you battled and defeated him 3 times. Meaning that the first 3 fights is Sion basically fighting at his full strength.

I doubt Sion is so weak that he can only be defeated because of Exile's rants about Kreia. A show of strength must also be applied to kill Sion.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract Kreia: It was shown that Kreia loved the Exile more than anyone else in the galaxy. Why would she want to kill the Exile? Also note that Kreia's "big power" technique is Force Drain, which doesn't appear to work on the Exile. If it did the Exile would have lost that match to a Kreia willing to kill her.

You would have to show evidence of this. Kreia supposedly throwing the fight because of her love for the Exile contradicts all the stuff Kreia intended for the Exile and the things she said to the Exile on that final battle in Malachor.

Here's some quotes taken from Kreia on that battle:

"Yes, always, from the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I."

"The Apprentice must kill the Master. If you do not, I will kill you. If I do not, then all you have achieved will be as nothing, as empty, and as violent as Malachor itself."

"If you do not kill me, I shall end you. Strike me down, end this."

Kreia intended very much to kill the Exile if Exile doesnt have what it takes to kill her. And there's no doubt Kreia loves the Exile, but its clear that what is most important for Kreia is for Exile to become strong, very strong to the point that she can beat the old witch. It might even be argued that thats the reason why Kreia loved her in the first place.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're apparently not understanding. The DSSB states that they could have fought for HOURS and it would have been a stalemate. So you can call this a brief encounter, but it is a testament to his saber abilities. Ulic is no doubt one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the SW universe, and there's absolutely nothing that suggests the Exile could even last a few minutes with him, without getting wtfpwned.

Yeah! Where's this evidence of Ulic's superioirty? I would say the Exile has more than enough tools to take down the likes of Ulic Qel Droma. I would also say Ulic is among the better duelists in SW (in a long list of over 20 names) but to call him one of the greatest is a bit of a stretch given the lack of evidence.

At least we know the Exile has the skills to fight 3 lightsabers at once; can hold off an opponent that's virtually physically invulnerable; knows at least three lightsber forms canonically (regardless of gameplay); and can learn jedi techniques after brief observations.

All we know about Ulic is that he can beat tomato cans like Warb Null; cut down a half rotting dark sider and hold his own brielfy with the one opponent he faced that was trully formidable.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah! Where's this evidence of Ulic's superioirty? I would say the Exile has more than enough tools to take down the likes of Ulic Qel Droma. I would also say Ulic is among the better duelists in SW (in a long list of over 20 names) but to call him one of the greatest is a bit of a stretch given the lack of evidence.
There is no lack of evidence. He was Kun's equal and he held of Sylvar without the use of the force. That alone EASILY puts him above the exile. Not to mention the burden of proof is on YOU because nothing has ever been stated about the Exile's saber abilities.

Wonderful. I come at you with logic, you come at me with inadmissable gameplay mechanics.

Apparently given your repeated ignorance, that is all YOU know.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
There is no lack of evidence. He was Kun's equal and he held of Sylvar without the use of the force. That alone EASILY puts him above the exile. Not to mention the burden of proof is on YOU because nothing has ever been stated about the Exile's saber abilities.

He was Kun's equal? Then why was he the APPRENTICE? And why are non of his victories as impressive as the Exile's? And what has Sylvar done to make that feat so impressive? If anything it reflects poorly on Sylvar. Because any remotely strong force senstive should have enough power and skill to take down a non-force user in a lightsaber match. Otherwise, you're no better than a skilled non-force sensitive which appears to be the case with Sylvar.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wonderful. I come at you with logic, you come at me with inadmissable gameplay mechanics.

I see a problem with definitions. Gameplay mechanic: randomly generated weapons and gear. Canon gameplay: Kreia's three ligtsabers on Malachor, breathe technique learned on Nar Shadda and three default lightsaber forms irrespective of the character classes etc etc. When gameplay is a constant part of the narrative, like a lightsaber technique (that allows you to use the Jedi weapon regardless of class), it is "canon".

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
He was Kun's equal? Then why was he the APPRENTICE? And why are non of his victories as impressive as the Exile's? And what has Sylvar done to make that feat so impressive? If anything it reflects poorly on Sylvar. Because any remotely strong force senstive should have enough power and skill to take down a non-force user in a lightsaber match. Otherwise, you're no better than a skilled non-force sensitive which appears to be the case with Sylvar.
He was his apprentice because Kun was superior with the force. Yet another flawed argument by the great Allankles. His victories are more impressive than the Exiles, especially since behind of every victory of the Exile's, there was some sort of circumstance. Nice job downplaying though. Not to mention you still have no proof other than gameplay mechanics, that the Exile is anywhere near Ulic's level.

Wrong. The lightsaber techniques are non canon, because it is 100% gameplay depending on the class, so you lose. Defeating Kreia's 3 lightsabers is impressive? Wow, I didn't know you have to be a force god to block 3 lightsabers, of which only one strikes at a time at the speed of a sea turtle.

tulakhordpwns

And how do you know this? Surely you wouldn't be hypocritical enough to dismiss someone's argument as game mechanics and then use game mechanics in your response.

Darth Sexy

If he is using game mechanics to further his point, I can use game mechanics to destroy his point.

Darth_Glentract

Allankles, are you going to respond to my post?

Allankles

Still can't come up with a counterargument worth a bucket of dirt, Saxy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He was his apprentice because Kun was superior with the force. Yet another flawed argument by the great Allankles.

Therefore making him inferior, not an equal - just like any other apprentice. Apparently the point of this simple argument flew over your head. The subjective perceptions of their combat levels are irrelevant next to Ulic's undeniable condition of inferiority .

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
especially since behind of every victory of the Exile's, there was some sort of circumstance. Nice job downplaying though. Not to mention you still have no proof other than gameplay mechanics, that the Exile is anywhere near Ulic's level.

In case you weren't aware the Exile had to hold off Sion before breaking his will, she didn't just talk him down she had to put the doubt in his mind by continually bettering him in combat - no circumstance there except oh... the Exile was just a better fighter.

Traya was willing to kill and destroy the Exile if she didn't have the ability to defeat her i.e. she didn't hold back, nor is there any suggestion that she was holding back.

The only people that promote that theory seem to be operating off of fan fiction plots, because their theories aren't based on any canon evidence. On the contrary, the canon sources do their best to clarify that Kreia never held back, via Kreia's very own words.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
His victories are more impressive than the Exiles

Care to explain to me how Warb Null and decrepit half Zombie Ommin are anywhere close to being on par with Sion and Kreia? The evidence seems to be against your ridiculous claims.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wrong. The lightsaber techniques are non canon, because it is 100% gameplay depending on the class, so you lose. Defeating Kreia's 3 lightsabers is impressive? Wow, I didn't know you have to be a force god to block 3 lightsabers, of which only one strikes at a time at the speed of a sea turtle.

Apparently you missed the part where I mentioned that the lightsaber techniques were a constant part of the narrative and as such form part of the canon.

Notice how in the narrative the Exile can discuss the lightsaber techniques he knows with Kreia (this is part of the narrative). Notice how also that I never mentioned any specific lightsaber forms, but that the Exile knew at least three lightsaber forms regardless of the class.

Notice further how I also mentioned that the lightsaber forms were the only means for the Exile to use lightsabers in Kotor 2 and as such form a part of the narrative that allows you to progress in the game.

Lastly, your comments on the Kreia's 3 lightsaber highlight your lack of comprehension. The details of the gameplay i.e. animation, speed etc are non-canon (don't reflect true Jedi combat) however the presence of the three lightsabers are canon and a part of the narrative.

And it's damn difficult to fight against three kinetically controlled lightsabers, consider the lack of restrictions on the angles of their strikes. If you're going to argue be sensible and try not to come off like some kind of biased fanboy.

Glentract the main points of your argument were addressed by someone else.

Darth Sexy

Your points were already defeated Allankles, but as usual, you come back for more like the ignorant child you are.

Allankles

Great counterarguments as usual Saxy, and as usual you've been found wanting in debating. Face facts: I'm your e-master.

Darth Sexy

If you could debate, this would be possible. I've already responded to your posts. You've responded with irrelevant N-canon garbage.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
Therefore making him inferior, not an equal - just like any other apprentice. Apparently the point of this simple argument flew over your head. The subjective perceptions of their combat levels are irrelevant next to Ulic's undeniable condition of inferiority .

Urm. For being such an addict to the original narrative you are ignoring it pretty well. The omniscient narrator states during that duel that neither Kun nor Ulic can claim an advantage over the other. Which pretty much means that they are equal, at least in terms of lightsaber combat.

So ESB Luke was superior to ESB Vader because managing to hold him off instead of getting WTFpwned in seconds ? Ulic without force powers is still superior to an enraged Jedi (Sylvar) because he managed to hold her off ? Nice interpretation. Aside from not making any sense.

Did you actually look at what you're writing yourself ? So Kreia was willing to destroy the Exile IF the Exile wasn't able to defeat her meaning she didn't want to destroy the Exile at any cost, meaning she was holding back ? Not that it even matters because the Exile is immune to Kreias most powerful force attack which keeps Kreia from "going all out" anyway...

Let me see. Warb Null was a guy possessed by an Ancient Sith (those guys Kreia deemed to be so uber in combat, that herself would look like a child compared to them) and was wearing a full suit of armor enchanced via Sith Alchemy. Aside from being obviously able to take it up with two Jedi at once easily in lightsaber combat. And Ommin ? The guy who floored 5 Jedi with a single Dark Side attack, owned Arca with another one, and had battle meditation strong enough that even Nomi Sunrider wasn't capable of countering it ? That aside of the fact that he was possessing Adas holocron which is one of the single most wealthy sources of Sith knowledge there is ? Good god. Those people must suck. Indeed.

Apparently you missed the part where the lightsaber forms are dependant on the players choise of the character class and hence don't appear in game every time.

And that matters how exactly ?

I bet I could play through the game without ever equipping a lightsaber to the character. So you're wrong here. Of course the Exile did utilize a lightsaber but to be quite honest - you can easily play through the game without switching your form once and that hardly says anything about the mastery of the Exile in the lightsaber department.

Wow. It's nice how you pile up all your assumptions and things the result actually qualifies as an argument. The animation and speed of those lightsabers might be none canon by I wonder where your pulling the idea from that Kreia did anything else than attacking with one saber at once or did show any uber control of those three lightsabers. Oh right. There is nothing to suggest something like that.

And by the way. Ever watched RotS ? I could swear that Obi-Wan did fight Grievous who handled four lightsabers and had two of them destroyed after ten seconds of duelling. Not to mention that the fun with tenetically controlled lightsabers is one can use his own telekinetic abilities against them or the user to break the concentration or turn those lightsabers into his own weapons. Which pretty much limits the effectivity of using such weapons quite much.

Not that there is something to suggest that Kreia handled those lightsabers with an uber skill anyway. Apparently, would it have done any better than her using the hand she had left to fight, she would have started the fight with levitating lightsabers around. Somehow the fact that she uses this as an emergency option strikes me as evidence that it wasn't exactly the best she could do. You may want to think about it. After that you can tell me who is the "biased fanboy" here.

-Blasmaster-

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you actually look at what you're writing yourself ? So Kreia was willing to destroy the Exile IF the Exile wasn't able to defeat her meaning she didn't want to destroy the Exile at any cost, meaning she was holding back ? Not that it even matters because the Exile is immune to Kreias most powerful force attack which keeps Kreia from "going all out" anyway...

I think your looking too much into the statement. Kreia was obviously referring to the possibility that if the Exile beats her but doesnt have what it takes to kill her, Traya will kill her instead. This does not mean that Traya was holding back. Traya was doing everything she can to beat the Exile, because that was part of her final test to her. Traya holding back contradicts the intentions she had to train the Exile in the first place. She explicitly said that she used the Exile to be stronger than her. And as Traya said, if they do not kill each other, then all of the Exile's training up to that point wouldve been for nothing.

I mean think about it, if Kreia wasnt trying to beat the Exile to the best of her abilities, then why even bother fighting the Exile in the first place? Heck, why even train the Exile in the first place?

Now Kriea not being able to use her most powerful attack against her is a good point. But does it guarantee her victory even if she can actually use it? No. Just like how I dont think it guarantees her victory against Revan or Exar Kun just because she possesses it and the two Sith Lords dont and doesnt have the means to defend against it.

Oh and as for the Lightsaber techniques, Allankles is right. Regardless of class, the Exile learns 3 Lightsaber techniques in her journeys. She learns the Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu. Trust me on this, I just looked at my KOTOR II game and checked my Jedi Sentinel/Watchman and Jedi Consular/Master characters and all 3 of those techniques are useable on both characters. Whether she mastered any one of this, let alone all 3, however is up for speculation.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Allankles
Glentract the main points of your argument were addressed by someone else.

No they weren't. He addressed only a minor detail. Go ahead and get to the rest of it.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No they weren't. He addressed only a minor detail. Go ahead and get to the rest of it.

I've already read your post and you're yet to give a good enough explanation as to how Warb Null and Ommin are comparable to Sion, Nihilus and Traya.

Outside of trying to discredit the Exile's wins with your own unsupported theories your points have all been addressed.

Sorry, if I come off as arrogant I just don't have the energy to rewrite points that have been addressed previously. I'd go as far as saying Atris is above Warb Null - after all she had generations of Sith lore to back her up.

Borbarad, your example on ESB Luke is pretty weak. The Exile was beating Sion, when I say "holding off" I mean that in the context of fighting a physically immortal foe. Anyone else and I would've used words like 'defeated', 'killed', 'curbstomped' etc etc.

The Exile basically bettered Sion on every ocassion opening up her opportunities to break his will with words. Proving on those occasions that she was the better fighter.

I already know the narration of Kun and Ulic's fight, I have a copy of the comic. For someone who was an equal, why does Ulic function as the apprentice? If you mention force power, then that give's Kun the edge over Ulic in combat - thereby making him the superior and Ulic naturally the inferior. I don't see what you're trying to prove here.

Ulic's feats by themselves don't put him above the Exile, you have to go by wishful thinking and what you believe to be inferred ideas of his yet-to-be-chronicled uber combat prowess.

Ulic was good - let's not hype him up beyond that - but not better than the Exile based on their respective showings.

Again to Borbarad, your points are weak and/or have already been addressed.

Darth Sexy

LOL.. Despite this crap, Ulic is one of the greatest saber duelists of all time, and the Exile is (judging by the game), average at best. Game play mechanics are non canon for the last time.

Allankles

A greater duelist based on what piece of golden scripture? Beating run-of-the mill Warb Null, cutting down a half rotting King? Oh... and besting the fiesty little Sylvar? Logic just isn't your strong suit.

By comparison the Exile's victories make her look like a demi god next to Ulic's "intimidating" combat victories. Logic points to Ulic's victories being average, not the Exile's. Every one of Exile's scalps would have wiped the floor with Ulic's.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
A greater duelist based on what piece of golden scripture? Beating run-of-the mill Warb Null, cutting down a half rotting King? Logic just isn't your strong suite. By comparison the Exile's victories make her look like a demi god next to Ulic's "intimidating" combat accomplishements. Logic points to Ulic's victories being average, not the Exile's.

Wtf is a suite? Logic doesn't seem to be in your vocabulary either when you argue against facts, use gameplay mechanics ars part of your argument, and just repeat your crap.

Ulic stalemated Kun, Ulic stalemated Sylvar without the use of the force. Nothing the exile did puts her on any level above average in saber combat. Beating Kreia? WOW... Kreia was REALLY going all out, as we've noticed. Talking Sion to death? Please. Quit while you're behind.

Allankles

Sion, Nihilus and Kreia would have curb stomped Sylvar, Warb Null and Ommin.

Darth Sexy

So because A, B, C were more powerful than D, E, F, suddenly the character that defeated A, B, C is more powerful? Especially since the details of 2 out of 3 of those fights have NOTHING to do with lightsaber combat. This is by far the dumbest thing you've ever said.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wtf is a suite?

Ulic stalemated Kun, Ulic stalemated Sylvar without the use of the force. Nothing the exile did puts her on any level above average in saber combat. Beating Kreia? WOW... Kreia was REALLY going all out, as we've noticed. Talking Sion to death? Please. Quit while you're behind.

What's with the e at the end of suit? Ulic stalemated Kun so? Kun wasn't even at his best. On the flip side while Ulic could only stalemate his one formidable enemy the Exile defeated Traya, Sion and helped bring down and kill Nihilus. Yeah! Stalemating a Jedi who isn't good enough to beat a non-force sensitive in a LIGHTSABER contest - really impressive.

You seem to be leaving behind more of your logic with every post. Which gameplay mechanics? The idea that lightsaber forms are actually part of the narrative? Or don't you get the significance of my statement? Lightsaber forms are not merely restricted to the gameplay in Kotor 2, they are laso part of the STORY. And I'm not discussing the gameplay in this instance but the narrative.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Especially since the details of 2 out of 3 of those fights have NOTHING to do with lightsaber combat. This is by far the dumbest thing you've ever said.

Meaningless dribble, again. They all involve lightsabers in the 'canon', seeing as they're all JEDI/DARK JEDI, the specifics are what remain unknown i.e. the manner in which those fights actually transpired. Jedi use sabers in 'canon'. Think a little before posting.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So because A, B, C were more powerful than D, E, F, suddenly the character that defeated A, B, C is more powerful?

Not necessarily, but given the lack of a constant with which to compare the two directly, the advantage logically goes to the one with the better combat resume - in this case the Exile. Where the ***k have you been during these debates.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Meaningless dribble, again. They all involve lightsabers in the 'canon', seeing as they're all JEDI/DARK JEDI, the specifics are what remain unknown i.e. the manner in which those fights actually transpired. Jedi use sabers in 'canon'. Think a little before posting.

Your posts are completely useless. This forum needs a new 'noobaris'.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Not necessarily, but given the lack of a constant with which to compare the two directly, the advantage logically goes to the one with the better combat resume - in this case the Exile. Where the ***k have you been during these debates.

The question is, how can anyone be this stupid when it comes to star wars. The exile was involved in what, ONE LIGHTSABER battle. Yet somehow she is even close to Ulic. Learn to debate logically or shut up.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The question is, how can anyone be this stupid when it comes to star wars. The exile was involved in what, ONE LIGHTSABER battle. Yet somehow she is even close to Ulic. Learn to debate logically or shut up.

Which ONE fight? In the canon she engages 4 powerful opponents in combat. In the canon she could've participated in more than one lightsaber match.

I admit she could have taken her opponents down with the force but that still qualifies as a COMBAT feat. If this fight was based on pure lightsabers maybe you'd have half a point, seeing as she could have engaged in countless lightsaber fights or just the one.

You're not making much of a point though, you expect that everyone automatically has the same opinion as you. Ulic's victories in combat are less impressive than the Exile's - it's that simple.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Which ONE fight? In the canon she engages 4 powerful opponents in combat. In the canon she could've participated in more than one lightsaber match.
Four powerful opponents in saber combat? Please, enlighten us.

Except it's a gameplay mechanic, non canon, and has no bearing on her "combat" abilities. You still have no argument.

Except Ulic's abilities easily trump those of the Exile, Nai and myself have made arguments for Ulic, and you just ignore it because you're an idiot.

tulakhordpwns

It is canon that Exile defeated Nihilus, Sion, and Traya actually.

-Blasmaster-

I honestly dont know why you guys keep arguing about lightsaber fights. Did the thread starter say this is a lightsaber fight? I thought this was an all out fight. Meaning a fight involving not just the use of lightsaber but also the Force.

As far as Im concern I dont see anybody curbstomping anybody in this fight.

I dont see how anyone can question the validity of Ulic's power. The fact that he was able to hang with Kun in their fight speaks volumes of his power, the idea of him supposedly losing to him if that continued longer(which I disagree btw and requires proof) is irrelevant. Just the fact that he can hold his own against Kun for HOURS is already one of the most impressive feats a force-user can do. Lets also take to consider that Ulic came from a time where Jedi are incredibly strong in the force, not to mention tough. I mean Jedi Knights like Tott Doneeta can directly deflect a barrage of blasts from the formidable Basilisk War Droids with just the Force. Then Sylvar and Dace Diath can do the same with their lightsabers. Then 10 years later, Tott was strong enough to survive a direct hit from a damn Heat Storm which ravaged a part of his planet's countryside, and he was still strong enough to get up and immediately head out for the Jedi Conclave several light years away. Then we come to the Jedi Masters like Thon who can easily deflect a salvo of blasts from a much bigger ship, with the Force. Put Ulic in this equation, who is way more powerful than Tott, Sylvar and Dace. And likely more powerful than Thon.

As for the Exile. Judging from the posts here, I get the feeling there's more hate for her than actually proving how she's nothing special. What's the deal? Lets get the facts straight. The Exile is FAR from being average. That 'average' Exile existed even before the Mandalorian Wars. Beating two Sith Lords 10 years later would prove that she is not average at all. And anybody who still claim that she beat them through circumstances has yet to prove it. She beat them fair and square and proved that she's stronger than both. Heck, she didnt just beat them, she beat 2 souped up Sith Lords. Take note that she fought them at the heart of Malachor where the dark-side energies which permeates throughout Malachor, are at its strongest. And another thing that you guys forgot is the fact she fought and beat these Sith Lords consecutively. After beating Sion, she immediately went on to fight Traya. She had no rest inbetween the fights. Now is that really the feats of a Jedi who wouldnt hold a candle against Ulic?

IMO, this is a great fight. I still maintain that Exile will put up a good fight, but in the end Ulic will prove to be the victor. Why? Part of it is because of the stuff I wrote above. But most of it is because we dont know how strong the Exile really is in the sense of if whether she excels in Lightsaber combat more than Force combat and vice versa, or she excels in them both. The fact is we dont know for certain. While Ulic has been already established as a Master Swordsman and a very strong practitioner of the Force.

tulakhordpwns

I agree with what Blasmaster says.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
I honestly dont know why you guys keep arguing about lightsaber fights. Did the thread starter say this is a lightsaber fight? I thought this was an all out fight. Meaning a fight involving not just the use of lightsaber but also the Force.

As far as Im concern I dont see anybody curbstomping anybody in this fight.

I dont see how anyone can question the validity of Ulic's power. The fact that he was able to hang with Kun in their fight speaks volumes of his power, the idea of him supposedly losing to him if that continued longer(which I disagree btw and requires proof) is irrelevant. Just the fact that he can hold his own against Kun for HOURS is already one of the most impressive feats a force-user can do. Lets also take to consider that Ulic came from a time where Jedi are incredibly strong in the force, not to mention tough. I mean Jedi Knights like Tott Doneeta can directly deflect a barrage of blasts from the formidable Basilisk War Droids with just the Force. Then Sylvar and Dace Diath can do the same with their lightsabers. Then 10 years later, Tott was strong enough to survive a direct hit from a damn Heat Storm which ravaged a part of his planet's countryside, and he was still strong enough to get up and immediately head out for the Jedi Conclave several light years away. Then we come to the Jedi Masters like Thon who can easily deflect a salvo of blasts from a much bigger ship, with the Force. Put Ulic in this equation, who is way more powerful than Tott, Sylvar and Dace. And likely more powerful than Thon.

As for the Exile. Judging from the posts here, I get the feeling there's more hate for her than actually proving how she's nothing special. What's the deal? Lets get the facts straight. The Exile is FAR from being average. That 'average' Exile existed even before the Mandalorian Wars. Beating two Sith Lords 10 years later would prove that she is not average at all. And anybody who still claim that she beat them through circumstances has yet to prove it. She beat them fair and square and proved that she's stronger than both. Heck, she didnt just beat them, she beat 2 souped up Sith Lords. Take note that she fought them at the heart of Malachor where the dark-side energies which permeates throughout Malachor, are at its strongest. And another thing that you guys forgot is the fact she fought and beat these Sith Lords consecutively. After beating Sion, she immediately went on to fight Traya. She had no rest inbetween the fights. Now is that really the feats of a Jedi who wouldnt hold a candle against Ulic?

IMO, this is a great fight. I still maintain that Exile will put up a good fight, but in the end Ulic will prove to be the victor. Why? Part of it is because of the stuff I wrote above. But most of it is because we dont know how strong the Exile really is in the sense of if whether she excels in Lightsaber combat more than Force combat and vice versa, or she excels in them both. The fact is we dont know for certain. While Ulic has been already established as a Master Swordsman and a very strong practitioner of the Force.

Beating Kreia and Nihilus doesn't necessarily make her the better combatant. She has the "wound in the force" edge, otherwise Nihilus would have annihilated her.

-Blasmaster-

I was talking about Sion and Traya. I never mentioned Nihilus once in my posts. I agree with you about Nihilus. He was quite clearly the strongest character in the game.

As for Traya I dont quite agree. Even if the Exile wasn't a wound in the force and Traya can use her Force Drain, does that mean she wouldve annihilated the Exile? Maybe, Maybe not. For me, The Exile still has good chance of beating her. Considering that she was at a disadvantage when she fought Sion and Traya and still won, makes me think she's strong enough to still win against Traya + Force Drain. One doesn't need to resist the Force Drain and hope to win. One can just simply prevent it from being used in the first place.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
Sorry, if I come off as arrogant I just don't have the energy to rewrite points that have been addressed previously. I'd go as far as saying Atris is above Warb Null - after all she had generations of Sith lore to back her up.

I guess you missed the fact that Warb Null was a guy possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith. So I wonder how librarian Atris would have more Sith knowledge than him. You might want to explain that to us.

Which is all pretty nice - but awfully pretty stupid. What does the fact that Sion can't be killed in a usual way say about his lightsaber abilities ? Right. Nothing. So what does it say about the Exile that she was able to hold him off or defeat him in lightsaber combat ? Again: Nothing.

You seem to have understood the concept of game interpretation and yet you choose to ignore it again ? You really think that the Exile did cut down Sion multiple times as in "bringing his HP bar down to zero". Or can it be that they talked while fighting - which can't be displayed as such in the game. And still being better than somebody who's lightsaber skill is by any definition unknown doesn't strikes me as too impressive.

I don't see what you're trying to argue here. First: The omniscient narrator states they were equal in terms of combat. End of story. Second: I didn't see any reason given by Ragnos to make Exar Kun the Dark Lord and not Ulic. So you aren't doing much here but speculating especially since Ulic, up to that point in the storyline, has shown more in terms of raw force abilities and lightsaber abilities than Exar Kun.

Based on what respective showings, dude ?
The Exile teamed a previously weakened Nihilus with support of two other people. Proof for her combat prowess there ? None. Then she talked Sion to death, a guy with non-existant feats in the lightsaber department. Proof for her combat prowess there ? None. She defeated Atris, the Jedi Orders librarians that, for all we know, never saw real combat action. Proof for her combat prowess there ? None. And of course she defeated Kreia, a one handed woman that wasn't able to use her most powerful force technique against the Exile. Proof for the Exile's combat prowess there ? None.

Ulic jumped right through a force attack that floored prodigious people like Nomi Sunrider rather easily to cut down a Sith Magician who had access to Adas holocron and who belonged to a lineage of Dark Siders. He defeated Mandalore, who was said to have been the most powerful duellist of an entire race of warriors. He cut down Warb Null, a guy in Sith Armor possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith, with a swift movement when the guy rather easily dominated two of Ulic's Jedi friends rather easily before that. And he stalemated Kun, who was a rather gifted duellist and force user in his own right - in fact the most skilled student of a guy that trained Jedi for centuries.

I wonder how the Exile's showings are compareable to that. Especially when the Exile had an advantage in any of those fights with the exception of her confrontation with Atris.

Translation for the audience: "As I don't really have an argument I'd rather ignore your points, Borbarad, instead of ridicule myself further with trying to answer them." KK.THX.BYE.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
I guess you missed the fact that Warb Null was a guy possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith. So I wonder how librarian Atris would have more Sith knowledge than him. You might want to explain that to us.

So a single unknown Sith spirit had the knowledge of the sum total of generations of Sith lore? Remember that Atris had collected all the Sith holocrons the Jedi possessed in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is all pretty nice - but awfully pretty stupid. What does the fact that Sion can't be killed in a usual way say about his lightsaber abilities ?

When the **** was the contest exclusive to lightsabers? Do you even know what we're arguing about? It's an all out fight not merely a lightsaber contest.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You seem to have understood the concept of game interpretation and yet you choose to ignore it again ? You really think that the Exile did cut down Sion multiple times as in "bringing his HP bar down to zero". Or can it be that they talked while fighting - which can't be displayed as such in the game. And still being better than somebody who's lightsaber skill is by any definition unknown doesn't strikes me as too impressive.

You seem to not know how to address the crux of the argument. I don't give a s**t how she did it. The point that you seem not to get is that she had to "hold-off" Sion in combat before breaking him down with words. And that would be impossible without sowing doubt in Sion's mind by somehow bettering him, physically.

Remember Sion has to acknowledge her superiority in skill and power before ever doubting himself. You think mere words with no action would break Sion down? I can see why you haven't gotten it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ulic jumped right through a force attack that floored prodigious people like Nomi Sunrider rather easily to cut down a Sith Magician who had access to Adas holocron and who belonged to a lineage of Dark Siders.

The Exile defeated a physical immortal, a Sith that could devour worlds and a Sith Lord capable of tearing the life out of Jedi with one wave of her hand.

Ulic beat a run-of the mill dark Jedi in Warb Null, and a decrepit half-rotting Zombie Sith magician. Maybe if Ommin wasn't so... fragile, he might have qualified as a foe on par with Ulic.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Translation for the audience: "As I don't really have an argument I'd rather ignore your points, Borbarad, instead of ridicule myself further with trying to answer them." KK.THX.BYE.

Look here, I don't feel the need to reply to arguments I've already defeated and/or addressed previously in this and other threads. Our interactions here are informal, I'm allowed to be lazy if I want to be. Continue to repeat arguments that have already been countered very well by me and others in this thread and I'll ignore your posts, don't flatter yourself.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
So a single unknown Sith spirit had the knowledge of the sum total of generations of Sith lore? Remember that Atris had collected all the Sith holocrons the Jedi possessed in the galaxy.

Yes. And she did study the Sith language, than she of course unlocked all knowledge stored in that holocrons. I guess somebody who actually lived in the Ancient Sith Empire and had - going by average Sith livespan - more than a century to study that stuff, would have a little bit more Sith knowledge than Atris.

It's a lightsaber and force contest, dude. That's usually how Sith and Jedi duke it out. And neither the defeat of Sion nor that of Kreia or Nihilus do say anything about the Exile's lightsaber skill and force mastery.

Obviously you are too stupid to recognize an argument even if it bites you. The "how" is the crucial point here and nothing else unless you want to assume that the Exile is going to talk Ulic to death.

Yes. That's precisely what's happened because he's only killed by chosing the right dialoque options. Following your logic he should die after X blows regardless of what you talk to him - which isn't the case.

And even if it was the words combined with the action: You don't know the level of Sion's lightsaber skill so there is nothing to base an argument on that he was anywhere difficult to "hold-off". Got that into your head now ? Hence that action does hardly speak for the Exile's combat prowess.

by talking him to death...Nice way dodging the point.

...in a 3on1 after said Sith Lords was weakened twice (once by attempting to drain the Exile, then through Visas' connection to him). That's aside from the fact that he couldn't use his drain against the Exile. Nice attempt to dodge the point once more.

...and which was not able to do that to the Exile because of the Exile's nature. Thanks. I already knew that. Anymore boredom you have to offer ?

...who fended of two other Jedi with apparent ease, wore an armor altered with Sith Alchemy and was possessed by the spirit of an ancient Sith.

...who had enough force powers up his sleeve to own Arca Jeth in a direct force contest and floor multiple Jedi with a single force attack aside from mind-controlling another force user (Satal Keto) and having the greatest single source of Dark Side knowledge (Adas holocron) in his possession. Thanks for ignoring all points once more. Why you even bother hitting the reply button if you have nothing to say, eh ?

That aside from the fact that you've forgotten the fact that Ulic stalemated Kun (and don't even dare to come up with the "Buhuhu. But Exar was superior" again), defeated Mandalore despite of sacrificing most of his advantages, killed Satal Keto, floored two Jedi with a burst of anger and apparently also damaged a nice stone structure and destroyed a torture droid with a similar uncontrolled use of his abilities.

I didn't see you addressing (and much less defeating) anything here. You're basically posting the same crap over and over again while completely inable to come up with any sort of argument, proof or even the slightest viable assumption as to why the Exile should be able to beat Ulic Qel-Droma in a fight. So...

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/funstuff/blahblah.jpg

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And she did study the Sith language, than she of course unlocked all knowledge stored in that holocrons. I guess somebody who actually lived in the Ancient Sith Empire and had - going by average Sith livespan - more than a century to study that stuff, would have a little bit more Sith knowledge than Atris.

Unfounded assumptions. He was just some Sith spirit that resided in a little dark side tome. Don't make unfounded assumpitons of his 100 year reign as a Sith Lord. Warb Null (before his transformation) studied the dark side knowledge of one Sith, Atris has studied many more, plus she had years as a Jedi historian on top of that. It is fair to say she's more formidable than Warb Null.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It's a lightsaber and force contest, dude. That's usually how Sith and Jedi duke it out. And neither the defeat of Sion nor that of Kreia or Nihilus do say anything about the Exile's lightsaber skill and force mastery.

Thanks for stating the obvious. Kreia applied three telekinetically controlled lightsabers in her duel - implying the Exile had the skill and power to counter such difficult odds.

Sion was a physical immortal - it is fair to say it was an all out fight. Nihilus was very powerful opponent even after he was weakened. Powerful enough that Visas had to use the force to break Nihilus' bond with his ship because he was still "too strong" - implying again it was an all out fight.

The Exile learning force and lightsaber forms after brief observation from the three Jedi masters - the narrative giving us a good overview of her knowledge in Jedi combat, both through force forms and lightsaber techniques.

Malak stating that the Jedi Masters spoke highly of her skills in combat. etc etc

Originally posted by Borbarad
Obviously you are too stupid to recognize an argument even if it bites you. The "how" is the crucial point here and nothing else unless you want to assume that the Exile is going to talk Ulic to death.

Maybe you have comprehension difficulties. Sion's will is the only thing that keeps him "alive". With that said, the Exile has to sow doubt in Sion's mind by first bettering him in combat.

The 'how' is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make which is - the Exile merely talked Sion to death. The point of your argument is rendered invalid, by the fact that Sion's doubt is fostered by his inability to better the Exile in combat.

The fact that her skill and power sowed doubt in Sion's mind before she could break Sion's will with words is all that matters - it is the crux of the argument.

The specifics are relveant only if I want to present to you the very logical possibility, that the Exile could very well have defeated Sion with lightsabers ALONE. No logical debater would even go down this route. The Exile could be lightsbaber duelist of unparalelled skill or have great force mastery with average skill.

Effectively, the narration manages to depict her as an excellent combatant, regarldess of where her greatest strengths lie. It is pointless argument to make for the very reason that it is indeterminate.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And even if it was the words combined with the action: You don't know the level of Sion's lightsaber skill so there is nothing to base an argument on that he was anywhere difficult to "hold-off". Got that into your head now ? Hence that action does hardly speak for the Exile's combat prowess.

You're a little dim. Sion's immortality is what makes him difficult to hold off, especially when he's got a reserve of dark side energy with which to draw power from i.e planetoids like Korriban and Malachor 5. He's immortality; that's what you have to overcome, and not anyone can do it for obvious reasons (you have to know where his doubt lies like the Exile did).

Originally posted by Borbarad
by talking him to death...Nice way dodging the point..

Shut up. Your capacity to debate reduces with every post it seems.

Originally posted by Borbarad
...who fended of two other Jedi with apparent ease, wore an armor altered with Sith Alchemy and was possessed by the spirit of an ancient Sith.

So it's not possible for a run of the mill dark Jedi to fend off other lesser Jedi? Weren't those Jedi, Cay and Doneeta? Wow! What a feat! Stop the irrational counterarguments. You're not making much of a case for Warb Null.

Originally posted by Borbarad
.....who had enough force powers up his sleeve to own Arca Jeth in a direct force contest and floor multiple Jedi with a single force attack aside from mind-controlling another force user (Satal Keto) and having the greatest single source of Dark Side knowledge (Adas holocron) in his possession. Thanks for ignoring all points once more. Why you even bother hitting the reply button if you have nothing to say, eh ?.

Arca Jeth being the epitome of Jedi strength and power, right?! you'd want us believing Arca was Yoda, if left unchecked. And Arca was overwhelmned by the conserted efforts of Nadd and Ommin, I'm guessing you left that little bit of info out on purpose.

Yeah! I don't remember doubting Ommin's considerable force abilities, they're not quite as potent as Kreia's drain but they were strong. However, physically he was a major push-over and that's how Ulic beat him, through physical means.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from the fact that you've forgotten the fact that Ulic stalemated Kun (and don't even dare to come up with the "Buhuhu. But Exar was superior" again), defeated Mandalore despite of sacrificing most of his advantages, killed Satal Keto, floored two Jedi with a burst of anger and apparently also damaged a nice stone structure and destroyed a torture droid with a similar uncontrolled use of his abilities..

Buhuhu yourself. He stalemated Kun, but Kun is just about the only guy he faced that could match him, and ironically he's also the only guy he fought that he couldn't beat. By contrast the Exile beat all three of the powerful opponents she faced. Ulic stalemating Kun isn't as valuable a feat as you'd like.

IOriginally posted by Borbarad
..... didn't see you addressing (and much less defeating) anything here. You're basically posting the same crap over and over again while completely inable to come up with any sort of argument, proof or even the slightest viable assumption as to why the Exile should be able to beat Ulic Qel-Droma in a fight. So...

You seem to be the one rehashing arguments I've already had with Saxy and others in this thread, unless you consider talking Sion to death and stalemating Kun "new" arguments?

Unless you can come up with a solid argument as to how Warb Null and Ommin are as dangerous as Traya, Sion and Nihilus this debate is effectively done.

No assumptions based on what you beleive are inferred ideas e.g. "he stale mated Kun he must be a lightsaber god", or "warb null is basically a god-like ancient sith".

Non of that bs, just the facts. And the facts show Warb Null as a run of the mill dark Jedi that got beaten easily after a few lightsaber strikes. Ommin as powerful but extremely fragile dark sider that got cut down with one swift strike. Nothing that suggests Ulic has contended with nearly as much adversity in his victories, as the Exile.

Lacking a constant with which to compare the two directly, that's what gives the Exile the edge for me. Go ahead and post more of those rehashed, badly constructed arguments again, Nai.

Darth Sexy

Allankles has never been one to accept defeat, ever. This is why he posts the same crap over and over again

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
Unfounded assumptions. He was just some Sith spirit that resided in a little dark side tome. Don't make unfounded assumpitons of his 100 year reign as a Sith Lord. Warb Null (before his transformation) studied the dark side knowledge of one Sith, Atris has studied many more, plus she had years as a Jedi historian on top of that. It is fair to say she's more formidable than Warb Null.

It must be hard to understand...
Warb Null = possessed by Ancient Sith spirit.
Notice: That spirit, whoever it was, lived in the times of the ancient Sith Empire when Sith teachings were commonly experienced in every days live. It doesn't matter how much knowledge about that time or the Sith ways Atris might have accessed. The spirit, when he was alive, LIVED among the Ancient Sith, studied their secrets when they were at their high point and probably used them for a damn longer time than Atris had accessed them. Got that ?

And considering we still don't know with which efficiency Kreia was able to handle those weapons telekinetically, that point is rather stupid. Because unless you present me proof that Kreia did anything impressive or hard to avoid with those sabers, there is nothing to state that the Exile needed any kind of impressive skill to compete with them.

What has "being physical immortal" to do with lightsaber abilities and abilities in terms of offensive force powers ? Right. Nothing. So again: You don't have any point here if you just keep talking like that because for all we know the Exile didn't need to be particulary skillful to fend off or wound Sion.

Excuse me. He first weakens himself by attempting to drain the Exile, he is weakened further by Visas after that and then he gets teamed by three people. Again. Where is the proof for the Exile's superiority over Ulic here, that you're estimating the entire time ?

As far as gameplay isn't considered she learns no lightsaber form from the Jedi Masters because that learning is based on the players choice. And I still didn't see anything in that respective scenes that would put her above Ulic.

Where did that happen, dude ? Apparently Vrook called her "average" and Vandar just noticed her force bond ability. Doesn't seem so as if they were impressed by her combat skills.

Apparently you have the comprehension difficulties here: How the hell would that help her in a fight against Ulic Qel-Droma ? Just answer that damn question.

Which both doesn't support your claim that the Exile is superior to Ulic. Got that into your head now ? Can't be that hard to do.

No. It doesn't matter because that would have no bearing on a match between her and Ulic Qel-Droma unless you have proof that Sion is better than Ulic with the force or a lightsaber and even then Ulic's ego wouldn't allow him to "doubt" his abilities. So sorry. That point is simply useless.

Apparently you still didn't get it. Unless you proof that the Exile is superior to Ulic in terms of force powers or lightsaber combat, there is no way that she can win a duel against Ulic. It's really that easy. Unless you want to assume that she lured details of Ulic's personal life from somebody before their duel and can use them in a similar fashion she used Sion's obedience to Kreia - and you of course need to assume that Ulic would react in a similar fashion to Sion. I guess both is pretty much...laughable.

So it's pointless to make a case for the Exile ? Thanks for owning yourself once again.

How would his immortality make him difficult to hold off. Really...the guy does obviously at least feel pain. If I cut his arm off he will obviously get hurt (if not outright losing his limb because as of now I've never seen somebody trying this). So WTF ?

Nice call for a pathetic noob who doesn't seem to be capable of winning a debate against a stone cold wall. Really. If you had any ability that would enable me to destinct between you and a dead jellyfish in debates, you'd certainly have any reason to open your mouth. But as this isn't the case: STFU, noob !

Yeah. Todd "I block starship fire with my bare hands and can walk through a firestorm" Doneeta certainly is a little whiner without any skill. And thanks for your input, Mr "I can't come up with an argument for the Exile but I'll keep talking anyways" Noobno1

Those strawmans are clearly not doing anything in your favor. Did I say Arca is Yoda ? Nope. He still is a 200 year old Jedi Master with considerable skill given his displays of battle meditation for example. And "conserted efforts" ? Lmao. Ommin points his hand at Arca and has him trapped in a Dark Side energy field. I didn't see Freedon "Don't fear me. I'm powerless." Nadd doing much there.

After jumping right through his force attack you ignorant.

What kind of argument is that ? Oh right. You aren't capable of producing arguments. I did almost forget that point. Kun is by far more powerful in comparison to Kreia and Sion and in contrast to Nihilus he wasn't previously weakened twice before Ulic stalemated him. So please go on with comparing apples to oranges.

Borbarad

Yes you had those arguments and you still didn't defeat any point. So why should I come back with new arguments if the old ones already destroy your pretty fanboyism. That would be a waste of time.

Yes. Nice. Shifting the burden of proof once again. Unless you come up with any argument for the Exile's superiority in comparison to Ulic the debate is done here. And I do really hope you're going to try to explain to me how any of the KotoR2 Sith trio (under consideration of the circumstances) is more dangerous then Exar Kun.

Excuse me. Stalemating a lightsaber god in combat does mean you're a lightsaber god. And being an ancient Sith certainly qualifies you for having more Sith knowledge than a freaking Jedi librarian that did spent some years to get some of it.

By your logic, Sion is just a dark Jedi with one special ability, while Kreia is basically the same as Ommin (just without the decades of Dark Side use, the sources and the Dark Sider ancestry that Ommin had).

That trumps anything I've seen so far. Because we can't compare them, the Exile wins. Great stuff, dude. Pass what you're smoking, please.

Darth Sexy

Please stop calling Kun a "lightsabe God". Luke is a "lightsaber God". DE Sidious is a "lightsaber God". Why is Kun?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Please stop calling Kun a "lightsabe God". Luke is a "lightsaber God". DE Sidious is a "lightsaber God". Why is Kun?

Oh sorry. Allannoying was so kind to use that term. And I just wanted that in my reply.

Darth Sexy

Oh cool, understandable.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
It must be hard to understand...
Warb Null = possessed by Ancient Sith spirit.
Notice: That spirit, whoever it was, lived in the times of the ancient Sith Empire when Sith teachings were commonly experienced in every days live. It doesn't matter how much knowledge about that time or the Sith ways Atris might have accessed. The spirit, when he was alive, LIVED among the Ancient Sith, studied their secrets when they were at their high point and probably used them for a damn longer time than Atris had accessed them. Got that ?

I think I made it clear that I understood your point. However it's an unfounded assumption. Are we assuming that Atris wouldn't have attained knowledge outside of Ancient Sith teachings? How about the wealth of info as a Jedi historian? Really it would be erronous to assume that every anceint Sith had the wealth of knowledge and instruction that Atris received, simply because they were anceint Jedi.

Actually looking at it logically, majority of force users in any generation hardly have access to as much knowlege as Atris did. So there's no evidence this Sith had greater knowledge than Atris, in fact it is more likely he had less.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And considering we still don't know with which efficiency Kreia was able to handle those weapons telekinetically, that point is rather stupid. Because unless you present me proof that Kreia did anything impressive or hard to avoid with those sabers, there is nothing to state that the Exile needed any kind of impressive skill to compete with them.

This is what I call an empty argument. You don't have to address every single point your opponent makes in a debate, just the contentious issues - at least that's what good debaters do. The very meachanics of dealing with three free flowing lightsabers makes it difficult.

Think of the angles and the extent of unrestricted movement they can achieve without the limitations of being handled by a humanoid? Think also on the fact that Kreia had shown herself to be very knowledgable and powerful in the force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What has "being physical immortal" to do with lightsaber abilities and abilities in terms of offensive force powers ? Right. Nothing. So again: You don't have any point here if you just keep talking like that because for all we know the Exile didn't need to be particulary skillful to fend off or wound Sion.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you actually played the game. In the narrative, the Exile couldn't defeat Sion at Korriban because he couldn't be beaten by physical means - as Kreia described him, " he's not a creature of flesh and bone." The game quite clearly states that Sions body is virtually unbreakable, it is only his will you can crush. So in that context Einstein the Exile would have to be very good at combat to have a chance of surviving someone like Sion. Sion is built to kill, he doesn't have to be as skillful as his opponent to kill them.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where did that happen, dude ? Apparently Vrook called her "average" and Vandar just noticed her force bond ability. Doesn't seem so as if they were impressed by her combat skills.

Vrook and Vandar didn't refer to her combat skills. It was Malak who mentioned the Exile's highly rated combat skills before they joined the Mando Wars. This happens on Korriban.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you have the comprehension difficulties here: How the hell would that help her in a fight against Ulic Qel-Droma ? Just answer that damn question..

Her ability to learn lightsaber and force techniques by brief observation, would mean that nothing Ulic would do as far as pure technique is concerned would throw her off. It also means she can discern the weaknesses in whatever form or technique Ulic uses in relation to her own. Ulic is certainly not overwhelming the Exile in power (she's faced more powerful foes), nor in skill - thanks to her gift

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. It doesn't matter because that would have no bearing on a match between her and Ulic Qel-Droma unless you have proof that Sion is better than Ulic with the force or a lightsaber and even then Ulic's ego wouldn't allow him to "doubt" his abilities. So sorry. That point is simply useless.

Which point? Your comprehension difficulties surface once again. My arguments over Sion have no direct correlation to how the Exile handles Ulic. It's your fault for raising useless points like, " she talked Sion to death." Sion just represents an opponent who was more formidable than anyone Ulic has defeated.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you still didn't get it. Unless you proof that the Exile is superior to Ulic in terms of force powers or lightsaber combat, there is no way that she can win a duel against Ulic. It's really that easy. Unless you want to assume that she lured details of Ulic's personal life from somebody before their duel and can use them in a similar fashion she used Sion's obedience to Kreia - and you of course need to assume that Ulic would react in a similar fashion to Sion. I guess both is pretty much...laughable.

ARE YOU RETARDED? Since when was Ulic a physical immortal who could only be defeated by breaking his will to live? Sion's only weakness, is his greatest strength, his will. It is because of his will that he's body is immortal and by breaking that very same will it is possible to defeat him. Get it now, Sherlock? You're such a difficult person to debate with. Overly long posts, a multitude of irrelevant points, unfounded assumptions for "arguments".

Focus, it can't be that difficult given the subject.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So it's pointless to make a case for the Exile ? Thanks for owning yourself once again.

Thanks for displaying you inability to grasp a point that requires a reasoning capacity a little beyond a fifth grader's. Saves me a lot of energy. I would think Kotor game animations are a little more impressive than Kotor comic panels, but that's me (If you don't get it don't embarrass yourself with some inane rebuttal). Let's not argue over the value of mediums (you know, circumventing arguments and all that).

Originally posted by Borbarad
How would his immortality make him difficult to hold off. Really...the guy does obviously at least feel pain. If I cut his arm off he will obviously get hurt (if not outright losing his limb because as of now I've never seen somebody trying this). So WTF ?

Your arguing with me over aspects of the narration? Those are arguments for the Kotor 2 writers, not me. You couldn't beat Sion physically, that's the official story.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice call for a pathetic noob who doesn't seem to be capable of winning a debate against a stone cold wall. Really. If you had any ability that would enable me to destinct between you and a dead jellyfish in debates, you'd certainly have any reason to open your mouth. But as this isn't the case: STFU, noob !

Wow! A decent insult! Good to see you're relatively decent at something, because debating isn't your forte.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Todd "I block starship fire with my bare hands and can walk through a firestorm" Doneeta certainly is a little whiner without any skill. And thanks for your input, Mr "I can't come up with an argument for the Exile but I'll keep talking anyways" Noobno1!

Yeah! He did that briefly, but he never stood out. Tott was an exemplary Jedi in his conduct, not in his power or skill. Or are you claiming otherwise? He was average, way-to go Warb Null, you could beat average Jedi, like Doneeta and Willum (or whoever it was that he fought).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Those strawmans are clearly not doing anything in your favor. Did I say Arca is Yoda ? Nope. He still is a 200 year old Jedi Master with considerable skill given his displays of battle meditation for example. And "conserted efforts" ? Lmao. Ommin points his hand at Arca and has him trapped in a Dark Side energy field. I didn't see Freedon "Don't fear me. I'm powerless." Nadd doing much there.

Fine it was a strawman, however Arca wasn't excepional outside of his BM. He was wise, knowledgable and relatively powerful, but I could say the same for just about every noted or celebrated Jedi Master. Not much of a point for Ommin, considering I ALREADY knew this when I made my assesment on the Onderonian half-zombie monarch.

Ommin still isn't a Kreia-level opponent. Powerful enough to subdue Arca, but so is Kreia I would assume and more - Kreia could kill Jedi with one single attack with the force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
After jumping right through his force attack you ignorant.

I already knew that you dim-wit. Did I mention I have possesion of the comic (somewhere)? That's why I've clarified that I acknowledge Ommin as a powerful wizard, he's just way too vulnerable though.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
What kind of argument is that ? Oh right. You aren't capable of producing arguments. I did almost forget that point. Kun is by far more powerful in comparison to Kreia and Sion and in contrast to Nihilus he wasn't previously weakened twice before Ulic stalemated him. So please go on with comparing apples to oranges.

What does that even equate to really? When Kun fought Ulic he was an inexperienced dark sider that was using his lightsaber only. Nothing about Kun there suggest he was more dangerous than Kreia was on Malachor 5 at the end of Kotor. Despite that, Ulic only managed a DRAW after a brief encounter.

See how context is so important in determining the value of feats? Just because it's the much vaunted and often times overrated Kun (especially at the time they fought), doesn't render the feat more valuable than the Exile's biggest feats. I would say Warb Null and Ommin are more signifcant to Ulic, because he actually beat them. You don't have to have the edge to draw with an opponent.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Allankles
What does that even equate to really? When Kun fought Ulic he was an inexperienced dark sider that was using his lightsaber only. Nothing about Kun there suggest he was more dangerous than Kreia was on Malachor 5 at the end of Kotor. Despite that, Ulic only managed a DRAW after a brief encounter.

See how context is so important in determining the value of feats? Just because it's the much vaunted and often times overrated Kun (especially at the time they fought), doesn't render the feat more valuable than the Exile's biggest feats. I would say Warb Null and Ommin are more signifcant to Ulic, because he actually beat them. You don't have to have the edge to draw with an opponent.
While your points do hold some merit in your most recent above reply to Nai (Borbarad), I would however like to point out that stalemating someone like Exar Kun was not at all an easy thing to do.

Exar Kun was surely more powerful then King Ommin and Warb Null.

Allankles

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
While your points do hold some merit in your most recent above reply to Nai (Borbarad), I would however like to point out that stalemating someone like Exar Kun was not at all an easy thing to do.

Exar Kun was surely more powerful then King Ommin and Warb Null.

Without doubt. He was a lot less vulnerable than Ommin and more powerful than Null, however Ulic never beat him. The value of the feat is depreciated by the lack of a clear outcome. Certainly, if the fight wasn't interrupted we would have had an outcome. But as I said, you don't need an edge to draw.

Darth Sexy

Gosh ALlankles, you just don't shut up, even when you've been pwned.

Synchro

Man nice debates. But after reading every post in this thread I'm gonna have to agree with the guy who isn't even in the debate. I agree with Blasmaster.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
I think I made it clear that I understood your point. However it's an unfounded assumption.

You mean aside from the fact that the guy was capable of putting his spirit into a tome including a Sith book which he protected that in turn contained enough knowledge about Sith magic and alchemy to help a regular metallurgical student to construct that nice armor. Aside of that the spirit granted Shas Dovos (the student) the ability to understand what was written down in the books, just to possess him after he finished the construction of the armor. Give me a call when you see Atris doing anything compareable.

Obviously, despite you think so, you still didn't get the point. Of course Atris most likely had knowledge outside of some Sith teachings. The point is that you don't have any idea how strong that would make her as a combatant. So I don't know why you're even bringing it up.

Urm. Earth to Allankles. I was talking about Sith knowledge. Aside of that: The Ancient Sith are quite all depicted to have livespans of several centuries. So when it comes to learning stuff they simply have some time advantage in comparison to regular human beings.

No it doesn't. Because you still didn't get the point. Moving one object with the force already requires some nice amount of focus. Wielding a single lightsaber with any sufficient skill would already require more focussing than doing the same thing with your hand because in addition to the original lightsaber style work you would also have to focus on applying telekinesis on the lightsaber. Now Kreia was levitating 3 weapons. And you want to tell me that she did perform some nice bladework with all three weapons simultaneously ? This without having the slightest proof for that and while ignoring the fact that the Exile could simply have used telekinetic attacks on the weapons herself ? Good god.

Think about the fact that Kreia would have to think about any unconventional movements for three weapons simultaneously while focusing to keep that things in the air and this while there is nothing to suggest that she's any good with lightsabers anyway.

It's getting ridiculous. Once more the simply question: How does Sion's invunerability make him any good in combat ? Of course he can jump right into a lightsaber and survive it. So what ? He has to use his lightsaber or the force to hurt the Exile and we don't know how good he is with any of that. So technically we don't know how good the Exile has to be to withstand him. Got that now ? Can't be that hard.

Aside from the fact that this was a vision which isn't exactly "canon" going by the fact that the Exile clearly experiences some irreal stuff there (like confronting Revan) even if that should have happened, Malak was trying to talk the Exile into joining them. Hardly something to give the Exile credit for. And even if we would do that, that wouldn't put the Exile above Ulic. So what ?

It's quite annoying if people don't notice some minor details within the game and reach some seriously distorted conclusions. You did of course notice that the "training sequences" the Exile goes through under the masters are cut. So we don't know how much time went by during that training sessions. But even assuming that the Exile can learn uber fast - to show somebody the very basic movements and pattern of a fighting style will already take some hours. So no. She's not going to counter every movement Ulic can use with a lightsaber. Sorry.

And her force abilities ? I didn't see the Exile doing much with her force abilities and the notion that she faced stronger opponents still is an unproven assumption of yours especially if you consider the circumstances under which she faced those opponents.

Sure. Sion is more powerful in the force and better with a lightsaber than Exar "I kill Jedi Masters for fun" Kun. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yes dude. Finally realizing how pointless Mr Sion is for that debate ? Because the Exile did neither overwhelm him with superior force mastery nor did she do it with superior lightsaber skill. The mentioning of Sion is simply POINTLESS. Shall I draw you a damn picture for that ?

Which is the entire point here. Because you can't beat Sion physically (through lightsaber combat or force powers) it only makes sense to mention his defeat to "proof" the Exile's superiority over Ulic if you want to tell me that the Exile is going to defeat Sion in the same manner she did it with Sion - which is not going to happen. Easy, isn't it ?

Yes. Because your average Jedi can't deflect even regular blasterfire barehanded, somebody who can do it with a starship cannon must be "average". And because he could briefly stall and survive a heat storm hitting him with 500 kph speed and 300 degrees celcius he certainly is an "average Jedi". Pass what you're smoking.

Yes. And that single attack with the force, which is pretty much her greatest showing of force power, is completely useless versus the Exile because of the Exile's very nature.

Borbarad

Yes. Kun was so inexperienced that he had no problem of force slapping Aleema across the room. Not to mention that he exterminated Nadd's spirit before and dealt with that pretty nice Sithspawn on Yavin 4. And I'd take the guy armed with a deadly Sith Amulet and equipped with enough Sith knowledge to floor people with force energy beams, aside from being a master swordsmen over the blind women which one hand that was limited in the fight because of the nature of her opponent each day.

What wisdom ? Why don't you apply that on your argument.
- without her unique nature and the support of Visas, Nihilus would have killed the Exile.
- without the knowledge she archieved from Kreia about Sion, the Sith Lord would also have killed her because she wouldn't have been able to break his will.
- without her unique nature, with prevented that Kreia used her instakill technique against her, the Exile would have been killed by the Sith Lady rather easily.

So much for the context here dude. The only claim to fame for the Exile that is not a result of her benefitting from the circumstances is her defeat of Atris. And unless you want to put the Jedi librarian on one level with Exar Kun, Ommin or even the likes of Warb Null (see above) or Satal Keto, you don't have a point.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
You mean aside from the fact that the guy was capable of putting his spirit into a tome including a Sith book which he protected that in turn contained enough knowledge about Sith magic and alchemy to help a regular metallurgical student to construct that nice armor. Aside of that the spirit granted Shas Dovos (the student) the ability to understand what was written down in the books, just to possess him after he finished the construction of the armor. Give me a call when you see Atris doing anything compareable.

You're like a real-life 1930's cartoon. Your arguments are so ridiculous, I wonder whether I'm lowering myself by replying to them. Give me a break, the only evidence for the "wealth" of knowledge in Dovos' little tome is the armor. And who the f**k is going to equate the knowledge of designing armor with generations worth of accumulated Jedi knowledge on Sith arts? How the hell can you seriously consider this a point? You must be out of your freaking mind.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm. Earth to Allankles. I was talking about Sith knowledge. Aside of that: The Ancient Sith are quite all depicted to have livespans of several centuries. So when it comes to learning stuff they simply have some time advantage in comparison to regular human beings.

Where's the evidence? Some random Sith spirit posseses Dovos and suddenly, Warb Null has more knowledge than Atris? What a freaking argument. Atris, whose whole life (almost) was devoted to the study of Jedi and Sith lore. Right, dream on.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wielding a single lightsaber with any sufficient skill would already require more focussing than doing the same thing with your hand because in addition to the original lightsaber style work you would also have to focus on applying telekinesis on the lightsaber. Now Kreia was levitating 3 weapons. And you want to tell me that she did perform some nice bladework with all three weapons simultaneously ? This without having the slightest proof for that and while ignoring the fact that the Exile could simply have used telekinetic attacks on the weapons herself ? Good god.

I clear example of your weak debating skills. "The Exile using TK on the blades", "three blades would be too much for little old Kreia to handle". And you call yourself a debater? Really just stop. TK is performed through mind control, are you suggesting that a Jedi as experienced as Kreia cannot apply enough mind control to elegantly control three lightsabers? Remember, part of the task is visualizing, and I'd expect Kreia to be able to visualize three free flowing lightsabers working in tandem. Stop writing your own suggestions like they're some kind of common wisdom.

No one is suggesting that the technique is easy or can be achieved by anyone, but Kreia clearly was capable of using the technique well enough for it to be used as a threat.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Think about the fact that Kreia would have to think about any unconventional movements for three weapons simultaneously while focusing to keep that things in the air and this while there is nothing to suggest that she's any good with lightsabers anyway.

So you've changed the bent of your argument. Your "point" seems to only be questioning Kreia's capability in using the three lightsabers effectively. It's not even an argument, are we trying to say that it's difficult or impossible for Kreia to have controlled three lightsabers effectively? Because if the answer is impossible I'd have to call BS on your assertions, given the context here (it's SW afterall). Or are you trying to say you would have no doubts if it were your favourite character.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And even if we would do that, that wouldn't put the Exile above Ulic. So what ?
Uggh! You just suck at debating, maybe if you didn't bring so many irrelevant points, you wouldn't need to be asking so what. We know you have a bias, how about you leave that aside and address the relevant points, I'm tired of discussing who-gave-who verbal fellatio.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So no. She's not going to counter every movement Ulic can use with a lightsaber. Sorry.

The narrative quite clearly describes her learning process as abnormally fast. Vrook, Zez and Kavar all display surprise at the speed with which the Exile learns the techniques. Techniques that would usually take years to learn. And who said anything about countering every movement? All I said is that it certainly gives the Exile the edge over someone like Ulic.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sure. Sion is more powerful in the force and better with a lightsaber than Exar "I kill Jedi Masters for fun" Kun. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You're too easy, you actually think you're "winning" the debate. Ulic never defeated Kun, so wtf are you dribbling on about?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes dude. Finally realizing how pointless Mr Sion is for that debate ? Because the Exile did neither overwhelm him with superior force mastery nor did she do it with superior lightsaber skill. The mentioning of Sion is simply POINTLESS. Shall I draw you a damn picture for that ?

As I said, you're too f**k**g easy. The Exile was superior to Sion in her COMBAT prowess i.e. regarldess of whether it was an all out force fight, lightsaber fight or little of both, the Exile was superior, prompting Sion to doubt himslef and thereby weakening his will. So yes SHERLOCK, the Exile did - in a manner of speaking - overwhelmn Sion.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is the entire point here. Because you can't beat Sion physically (through lightsaber combat or force powers) it only makes sense to mention his defeat to "proof" the Exile's superiority over Ulic if you want to tell me that the Exile is going to defeat Sion in the same manner she did it with Sion - which is not going to happen. Easy, isn't it ?

Go f**ck yourself! laughing

I mean that in the most light-hearted possible way. Your too dim. Ulic is not Sion, he's not as durable, he's not as big of a walking nightmare. Ulic doesn't share Sion's strengths nor does he share his weaknesses. I'll say it again, Sion just represents an opponent the Exile has defeated that is more powerful than any of Ulic's victories.

Sion is not (nor is anyone on Ulic's ledger) a constant by which we can directly compare the Exile to Ulic, but he's a decent enough argument for the Exile over Ulic based on feats.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Because your average Jedi can't deflect even regular blasterfire barehanded, somebody who can do it with a starship cannon must be "average". And because he could briefly stall and survive a heat storm hitting him with 500 kph speed and 300 degrees celcius he certainly is an "average Jedi". Pass what you're smoking.

laughing

It's good we somewhat understand each other. He's average in the same way Bastila was average in Kotor 1, he's blessed with one gift, but it doesn't make him above average in combat. He was a pretty average Jedi in his combat exploits, and with regards to this particular debate, he's average.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And that single attack with the force, which is pretty much her greatest showing of force power, is completely useless versus the Exile because of the Exile's very nature.

That by no means discredits the feat for the Exile, he's still had to go through a lot to defeat Kreia. The point would have mattered if Kreia wasn't a very knowledgable and powerful master of the force.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Kun was so inexperienced that he had no problem of force slapping Aleema across the room. Not to mention that he exterminated Nadd's spirit before and dealt with that pretty nice Sithspawn on Yavin 4. And I'd take the guy armed with a deadly Sith Amulet and equipped with enough Sith knowledge to floor people with force energy beams, aside from being a master swordsmen over the blind women which one hand that was limited in the fight because of the nature of her opponent each day.

Yeah! I don't remember Ulic ever beating Kun or ever beating an opponent on the level of that one blind woman you describe. Did it ever occur to you that the Exile (imagining they could actually meet) represent Ulic's greatest foe? Because by Kotor 2 the Exile has a ton more experience in combat than Kun and has an advantage over Ulic in one on one scenarios thanks to her gifts.

I also quite clearly remember stating that their fight was lightsabers only: and stop blowing the feat out of proportion. He matched skills with Kun, big deal. The Exile gets the job done; stalemates don't qualify as her biggest feat.

Kun nails the sneaky but averageish dark Jedi Aleema with a force attack (not fatal so no biggie) http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=148

He doesn't even attack Ulic with the force, maybe because he can't defeat an above average Jedi with a force atack, but whatever....
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=149

The fight is soon interrupted... http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=150

Yeah decent fight between to of the top dogs of that era, but it still doesn't come close to eclipsing what the Exile has accomplished.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What wisdom ? Why don't you apply that on your argument.
- without her unique nature and the support of Visas, Nihilus would have killed the Exile.

The Exile's nature is unique to the Exile. Understand the logic before making a fool of yourself. If the Exile wasn't a wound she wouldn't BE THE EXILE.

Originally posted by Borbarad
- without the knowledge she archieved from Kreia about Sion, the Sith Lord would also have killed her because she wouldn't have been able to break his will.

But-but-but... that was one of Kreia's functions as a teacher. You can't just argue over story developments and pass them off as an argument against "my" logic. It's not my story nor is it reality. Your train of thought is way wrong.

Originally posted by Borbarad
- without her unique nature, with prevented that Kreia used her instakill technique against her, the Exile would have been killed by the Sith Lady rather easily.

Again that's a bonus to the Exile for being who she is, she has a very good in-built defense against a very deadly technique. But it doesn't matter, Kreia is a very powerful and dangerous foe regardless.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So much for the context here dude. The only claim to fame for the Exile that is not a result of her benefitting from the circumstances is her defeat of Atris. And unless you want to put the Jedi librarian on one level with Exar Kun, Ommin or even the likes of Warb Null (see above) or Satal Keto, you don't have a point.

Right? Firsty, you've failed to apply my logic correctly to your arguments. The Ulic-Kun fight was a straight lightsaber fight against an Exar Kun who wasn't in his prime (remember he had just come from dispatching Sadow days maybe weeks after truning to the dark side (so he was indeed inexperienced).

Plus Kun never used force powers (and unlike in the Exile's case) we can't make the assumption that Ulic was immune or resistant to Kun's force powers/techniques. So the fight - up to the point it is interrupted - doesn't offer enough evidence of Ulic coping with an all out attack as Kun only used his lightsaber in a brief (to say the least) encounter.

See what I meant now? Don't just throw half-baked arguments out there, apply a little reasoning.

Darth Sexy

Allankles, not only have you been repeatedly pwned, but you've shown no ability whatsoever to construct a logical argument. Stop typing.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

http://www.myxertones.com/preview/content/33406/

Nothing productive. Shut up.

Darth Sexy

I rest my case.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I rest my case.

eek!

You call the irrelevant bs you were spouting a case?!

http://www.easyowned.com/images/old/awayfromme.jpg

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I rest my case.

Hey! Saxy!....

http://www.easyowned.com/images/stfu/yoda.gif

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
You're like a real-life 1930's cartoon. Your arguments are so ridiculous, I wonder whether I'm lowering myself by replying to them. Give me a break, the only evidence for the "wealth" of knowledge in Dovos' little tome is the armor. And who the f**k is going to equate the knowledge of designing armor with generations worth of accumulated Jedi knowledge on Sith arts? How the hell can you seriously consider this a point? You must be out of your freaking mind.

Real-life 1930's cartoon ? Funny. I guess you're the equivalent of a lobotomized Goofy then. The evidence for the wealth of knowledge in the tome is the fact that Dovos lures a book out of it and spents years with studying it, before he can even get a grasp on some of the things stated in it.

And we of course still have that Sith spirit that (like Freedom Nadd) bound his own spectral form to an object, was capable of granting Dovos the ability to understand the book through the force just to possess him afterwards.

Are you retarded, dude ? The very nature of the ancient Sith is that all of them where Dark Side users that used Sith magic in every day of their life. That means that those Sith, whose spirit did possess Dovos, did grow up with learning Dark Side powers regardless if he was a Dark Lord of the Sith once or just some "regular" Sith Lord. I don't see how Atris knowledge could possibly exceed that of a person who had (going by the average life time of the Sith species) more than a century to study the force, especially when it comes to Dark Side knowledge which still more effective than most Jedi Arts in direct confrontation with other force users.

Wow. Can you give me a list of situations where a Jedi moved three objects with telekinesis indepentendly from each other and in a way that those objects performed complex individual movements ? No ? In fact Luke in ESB had some problems with just lifting three objects independant from each other. And can you please tell me why Kreia would even attempt to attack the Exile with a single lightsaber in her hand instead of starting with the three telekinetically controlled lightsabers if the latter option is so much more efficient and dangerous for the opponent ? Obviously Kreia considered it more promissing to attack the Exile with a blade wielded in her off-hand than coming up with that TK action - for a reason.
And you should stop enforcing your thoughts on the situation as canon because what we see is Kreia levitating two blades while perfoming relative slow and predictable swings with the third. I don't see why we should assume she turned those weapons into an unpredictable lightsaber whirlwind with her telekinesis.

Yes. That's why she rather enters combat wielding a lightsaber regulary in the first place. Obviously this was more effective than using the three lightsaber with telekinesis, otherwise Kreia wouldn't have done it.

See above. There is a reason why we see Jedi handling their weapons with their hands despite of the fact that every damn force user is capable of using telekinesis. Because it obviously takes much more concentration and focus to even wield one lightsaber around with telekinesis as effectively as doing the same while holding the weapon in your hand. That's a damn fact.

Which still doesn't mean that she's capable of learning the styles in minutes, dude hence it's completely irrelevant. How would that give the Exile any advantage over Ulic unless she already learned Ulic's style in the first place ?

And without prior knowledge archieved through Kreia, the Exile wouldn't have been able to break Sion's will resulting in the inability to kill him, meaning she would have lost. And unless you can quantify Sion's force mastery and / or lightsaber skills this point is once more useless.

Holy crap. For all you know, the lightsaber and force abilities of everyone (with exception of Mandalore of course) that Ulic faced did exceed those of Sion. So how is Sion more "powerful" (in terms of combat prowess and skills) than the people Ulic faced. He is unbreakeable, yes. But that single advantage was negated by the Exile's knowledge about him with enabled her to break Sion's will.

How ? All you can see about Sion is that he's unbreakeable which doesn't matter because the Exile had the ability to counter that unique ability by her prior knowledge about Sion. This while Sion's lightsaber abilities and force control are unknowns.

By this nice logic, you know, Sion is also just an average dude equipped with a unique gift. So is Nihilus. And so is the Exile herself. Wonder if that does your argument any good, dude.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah! I don't remember Ulic ever beating Kun or ever beating an opponent on the level of that one blind woman you describe. Did it ever occur to you that the Exile (imagining they could actually meet) represent Ulic's greatest foe? Because by Kotor 2 the Exile has a ton more experience in combat than Kun and has an advantage over Ulic in one on one scenarios thanks to her gifts.

Did it ever occur to you how powerful Exar already is when he visits Ulic and Aleema to kill them ?

Here (click me) the omniscient narrator mentions that Kun simply strides over the battlefield untouched by fire or shrapnel (when he clearly doesn't care much about the fight) while Oss Willum recognizes him as "immensely strong in the force". When he then boasts into the room he pretty much declares that he had learned everything about Sith magic already and proof his statement by not only ignoring Aleema's attack but knocking her out with a casual blast of Dark Side energy from his hand. That aside from being a master swordsman and the most powerful student a 600 year old Jedi Master did ever have.

No. Her biggest feat, considering all circumstances, is to defeat a Jedi librarian that digged around a little bit in the Sith arts.

Yes. Eveybody can project Dark Side energy beams from his hand and instantly knock out other force users with them. Certainly nothing special. Especially when the target of the attack has been shown to pretty much disintegrate people with a force attack (the same one Kun walked right through).

Nice try to ignore the fact that Ulic pretty much jumped right through a Sith Magic attack from Ommin almost a year before that incident. But maybe he got weaker over time by using the Dark Side and receiving a "deadly" Sith amulet ? Lmao. That might also be a nice explanation as to why Aleema perceives Kun and Ulic as "rippling with Dark Side energy" later or why the fight could have went on for hours without a winner (as the DSB claims). Really...apparently Ulic's force defences are pretty high. I don't see how the fact that Kun doesn't try to force pimp slap him does speak against Kun and not for Ulic.

As all the Exile's accomplishments are based on plot elements of KotoR 2, with the exception of defeating Atris, I don't see how that would put her above Ulic.

Z0mg. Are you really too stupid to get the point ? The Exile's opponents are all constructed to fail against the very nature of the Exile. That's the entire point here. Nihilus fails against the Exile because he weakens himself trying to force drain her. He would have killed her without that. Hell...he would also have killed the Exile if the Exile hadn't brought Visas along which is pretty apparent.

What logic are you talking about ? The point is that the Exile's defeat of Sion tells us nothing about how well she would fare against Ulic Qel-Droma.

No. Kreia is somebody that learned Sith teachings from a source that peresents the force-drain instakill as nice solution for every bigger problem where Ulic simply resists Sith magic attacks that floor other Jedi because of his force potential and with that is quite able to dash out some damage even when not focusing (such as tearing the torture droid and the stone structure down after Satal Keto injected the Sith poision) or outright throwing two of his friends out of the way.

Apparently you are completely inable to read the comics.

click me

As it seems, Kun has studied enough Dark Side Lore at this point already, to have his Massassi built temples according to some Ancient Sith design. Ups ? And notice how far they have built up said temples already at that point.

click me

"Exar Kun had unearthed a trove of Sith Alchemical lore..." This in addition to the Dark Side lore which he had obviously already gained before.

Yeah. Guess Kun had no Sith knowledge at all when he did confront Ulic. And combat experience ? You mean aside from being so good with the damn lightsaber that he is called the "most formidable student I ever had" by Vodo who trained Jedi for centuries aside from being fast enough to draw his lightsaber, ignite it and cut two people down that were aiming at him with their blasters before one of them is capable of pulling the trigger ? Right. He certainly sucks in lightsaber combat at that point.

WTF ? I didn't see the Exile resisting anything but a force drain. On the other handside I see Ulic resisting Sith poison and a Sith Magic attack by Ommin.

See above. As if Kun's freaking lightsaber skill isn't already impressive enough, you have to consider that Ulic was wearing a deadly Sith amulet boosting his already considerable force abilities (including his force defence).

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did it ever occur to you how powerful Exar already is when he visits Ulic and Aleema to kill them ?

Here (click me) the omniscient narrator mentions that Kun simply strides over the battlefield untouched by fire or shrapnel (when he clearly doesn't care much about the fight) while Oss Willum recognizes him as "immensely strong in the force".

How has Exar Kun's strength in the force not been addressed in this thread? Still, you do realize the statement by itself is not significant here. Top tiers are generally very strong in the force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When he then boasts into the room he pretty much declares that he had learned everything about Sith magic already and proof his statement by not only ignoring Aleema's attack but knocking her out with a casual blast of Dark Side energy from his hand. That aside from being a master swordsman and the most powerful student a 600 year old Jedi Master did ever have.

laughing

Where is it suggested that Exar Kun casually blasted Aleema? Btw have you thought about how this is important to the debate? Ulic only fought briefly and stalemated Kun.

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. Her biggest feat, considering all circumstances, is to defeat a Jedi librarian that digged around a little bit in the Sith arts.

Do you ever read your arguments before posting them? Circumstances, that you apparently fail to recognize as story elements. Why is the Exile's gift (her wound) a circumstance to you, when Kun's amulets are not?

If you were capable of thinking rationally you'd recognize that they are all plot devices and are as much a part of the characters as their names. Now, come back to me again with this BS.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Eveybody can project Dark Side energy beams from his hand and instantly knock out other force users with them. Certainly nothing special. Especially when the target of the attack has been shown to pretty much disintegrate people with a force attack (the same one Kun walked right through).

Aleema isn't that strong, a dark Jedi should be expected to destroy non-force users with lightning (as an example) and other force powers. The average nightsister could achieve this, should we then automatically assume that they're better than average (Aleema is only very slightly above average)? I get what you're trying to say, but seriously destroying another organism with the force doesn't make Aleema better than average.

So Kun walking through Aleema's attack (given the absence of proof that it could floor powerful Jedi) doesn't mean much. Rationally it only means Kun is alot more powerful than Aleema which we expect.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice try to ignore the fact that Ulic pretty much jumped right through a Sith Magic attack from Ommin almost a year before that incident. But maybe he got weaker over time by using the Dark Side and receiving a "deadly" Sith amulet ? Lmao. That might also be a nice explanation as to why Aleema perceives Kun and Ulic as "rippling with Dark Side energy" later or why the fight could have went on for hours without a winner (as the DSB claims). Really...apparently Ulic's force defences are pretty high. I don't see how the fact that Kun doesn't try to force pimp slap him does speak against Kun and not for Ulic.

I remember quite clearly mentioning that I read the comic. Ulic also never jumped through any attack from Ommin, he quite clearly struggled through the dark side energies. As far as Kun not attacking Ulic with force powers, it doesn't mean anything except it didn't prove much as regards Ulic's power.

Look at it this way, if Dooku was powerful enough to feel confident to attack Yoda, why isn't Kun attacking Ulic with the force? The question is rhetorical, all we need know is that a force attack from Kun never happened both due to Kun's choice and Ragnos' interruption.

We already know Ulic and Kun are powerful up to this point in the narrative, Aleema's comments don't reveal anything we don't know. As I said I'm tired of discussing irrelevant verbal fellatio, the fight was decent, and it certainly wasn't unique in the context of the Star Wars mythos, so don't overhype it.

Lastly, Ulic was never noted for his offensive force powers, so his amulet is pretty insignificant to this debate.

Originally posted by Borbarad
As all the Exile's accomplishments are based on plot elements of KotoR 2, with the exception of defeating Atris, I don't see how that would put her above Ulic.

You're an idiot. Every accomplishment is a PLOT element. You can't be this dim. Every single victory, accomplishments, feat by any character is a series of crafted plot elements. In the Exile case they make sense, because they are linked to her very nature as opposed to a deus ex machina,.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad

Z0mg. Are you really too stupid to get the point ? The Exile's opponents are all constructed to fail against the very nature of the Exile. That's the entire point here. Nihilus fails against the Exile because he weakens himself trying to force drain her. He would have killed her without that. Hell...he would also have killed the Exile if the Exile hadn't brought Visas along which is pretty apparent.

I understand your point very well and that is why I have to disagree using sound reasoning. The Exile's nature means, in the case of Sion, and Nihilus especially that it is a feat that could only be achieved by her. By that reasoning, where's the logic in discrediting the Exile?

It's a feat that is entirely unique to her due to her nature, and that doesn't make it less substantial feat for the Exile. And Visas was always going to come along, regardless of the Exile's interference.

When one character is more powerful than another, that's a plot element, when one character possesses the weakness of another, that too is a plot element, so you don't have much of a point here. Lastly, the Exile also displays an ability to counter opponents that were not "wounds" as you well know, she could learn her opponents techniques and forms quickly, through her force bonding.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What logic are you talking about ? The point is that the Exile's defeat of Sion tells us nothing about how well she would fare against Ulic Qel-Droma.

But it tells us the Exile has beaten better opposition.

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. Kreia is somebody that learned Sith teachings from a source that peresents the force-drain instakill as nice solution for every bigger problem where Ulic simply resists Sith magic attacks that floor other Jedi because of his force potential and with that is quite able to dash out some damage even when not focusing (such as tearing the torture droid and the stone structure down after Satal Keto injected the Sith poision) or outright throwing two of his friends out of the way.

How and why would you equate, resisting dark side energies and breaking droids, to instantly killing Jedi masters with the force? One is clearly an advanced and extremely potent force technique (force drain) and another is basic tk and defensive Jedi techniques. You're clearly not thinking logically.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you are completely inable to read the comics.

click me

As it seems, Kun has studied enough Dark Side Lore at this point already, to have his Massassi built temples according to some Ancient Sith design. Ups ? And notice how far they have built up said temples already at that point.

Oops! So using blue prints of Sith architecture signifies a great deal of experience on Kun's part? Or Signifies a great deal of acquired knowledge on Sith arts? I wasn't aware architecture was part of the deep dark arts that only supremely knowledgeable Sith Lords are supposed to be aware of. I don't get how your reasoning can be so skewed. Architecture and building planning isn't unique to the Sith, nor does it lend proof of Kun's great knowledge.

However, this doesn't address my argument that Kun was a relatively inexperienced dark sider at the point he fought Ulic.

Don't turn this into a debate on Kun, I don't care about Kun's knowledge, it certainly didn't affect the fight he had with Ulic.

Originally posted by Borbarad
click me

"Exar Kun had unearthed a trove of Sith Alchemical lore..." This in addition to the Dark Side lore which he had obviously already gained before.

Yeah. Guess Kun had no Sith knowledge at all when he did confront Ulic. And combat experience ? You mean aside from being so good with the damn lightsaber that he is called the "most formidable student I ever had" by Vodo who trained Jedi for centuries aside from being fast enough to draw his lightsaber, ignite it and cut two people down that were aiming at him with their blasters before one of them is capable of pulling the trigger ? Right. He certainly sucks in lightsaber combat at that point.

Uncovering troves of Sith lore doesn't make Kun anymore experienced a dark sider at this point. You don't seem to be understanding my point. Kun was inexperienced, whatever knowledge he gained in his time before he fought Ulic certainly didn't make him anymore experienced. As far as Kun's knowledge goes, it certainly wasn't a factor when he faced Ulic.

And who mentioned lightsaber skills? Certainly Kun and Ulic were skilled duelists, they weren't uber but they were certainly good.

Originally posted by Borbarad

So resisting a force drain powerful enough to render Jedi lifeless instantly, is less awesome, than resisting Sith poisons and less potent force attacks? Just end this debate, its getting tiring replying to arguments like this.

Originally posted by Borbarad

laughing

Kun slashed a couple of blaster wielding opponents with a quick strike, suddenly he's a god of lightsaber dueling? He was a very good duelists in his time, I don't see though, why I should be giving Ulic undue credit for stalemating (after a brief encounter) the one truly formidable opponent he faced. Tell me why I guy whose biggest wins are against Warb Null and Ommin, should beat someone with the Exile's feats?

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad

The very nature of the ancient Sith is that all of them where Dark Side users that used Sith magic in every day of their life. That means that those Sith, whose spirit did possess Dovos, did grow up with learning Dark Side powers regardless if he was a Dark Lord of the Sith once or just some "regular" Sith Lord. I don't see how Atris knowledge could possibly exceed that of a person who had (going by the average life time of the Sith species) more than a century to study the force, especially when it comes to Dark Side knowledge which still more effective than most Jedi Arts in direct confrontation with other force users.

Where is it stated that every Ancient Sith had knowledge surpassing generations of the Jedi's accumulated knowledge on Sith lore? Here's an analogy for you to ponder; your logic asserts that a lay man living in 1940's Germany would have more knowledge on world war II military campaigns than a military historian that has spent years studying that war. Or more precisely that a soldier in world war 2 would have more knowledge on the war than a military historian, simply on the basis that he was there.

The logic is quite clearly flawed, but you're welcome to try again. Nowhere does it state that every ancient Sith was a fountain of Sith Lore surpassing Jedi historians (who studied Sith lore specifically).

Originally posted by Borbarad

Wow. Can you give me a list of situations where a Jedi moved three objects with telekinesis indepentendly from each other and in a way that those objects performed complex individual movements ? No ? In fact Luke in ESB had some problems with just lifting three objects independant from each other.

I don't remember anyone in SW attempting to use three lightsabers with TK in combat. So how the hell can you assume that it's impossible given the empirical proof that Kreia ALREADY accomplished it?

ESB Luke is an initiate in the Jedi arts, what a lousy example.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And can you please tell me why Kreia would even attempt to attack the Exile with a single lightsaber in her hand instead of starting with the three telekinetically controlled lightsabers if the latter option is so much more efficient and dangerous for the opponent ? Obviously Kreia considered it more promissing to attack the Exile with a blade wielded in her off-hand than coming up with that TK action - for a reason.

What outstanding logic! Because Kreia didn't use three lightsabers from the onset, this must be proof that she's not adept at handling three lightsabers with her TK? Wow Nai, you really nailed me on that one.

I believe the narrative makes it quite clear. In one of Kreia's responses at the interval before she uses the three lightsabers she says to the Exile: "you are strong but you don't know true power yet!" and she brandishes her lightsabers. Also after a lightside response she says: "you will not show me mercy, I will see you break before you do."

Again the narrative quite clearly shows that she takes the intensity of the fight a level higher when she introduces the three lightsabers.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And you should stop enforcing your thoughts on the situation as canon because what we see is Kreia levitating two blades while perfoming relative slow and predictable swings with the third. I don't see why we should assume she turned those weapons into an unpredictable lightsaber whirlwind with her telekinesis.

laughing

The animations are just gameplay. By this reasoning the Kotor comic panels on Ulic's fights are far less impressive.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=4&page=045

Don't use such idiotic arguments, they don't help your case for Ulic

Darth Sexy

One thing Nai, you are using Naga Sadow's name incorrectly. You have no idea as to whom Kreia is referring to when she mentions ancient sith. For all you know ( and this is more logical ), these were the ancient sith before Ragnos, during a time when they were at their peak. Ragnos was likely the last powerful ancient sith, as Sadow and KRessh and those below him showed virtually nothing.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
One thing Nai, you are using Naga Sadow's name incorrectly. You have no idea as to whom Kreia is referring to when she mentions ancient sith. For all you know ( and this is more logical ), these were the ancient sith before Ragnos, during a time when they were at their peak. Ragnos was likely the last powerful ancient sith, as Sadow and KRessh and those below him showed virtually nothing.

First: She's referring to "one" of "the ancient masters"
Second: She gives that comment while standing right in front of the tombs of Pall, Ragnos, Hord and Sadow

Conclusion: She was referring to the Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire in general or specifically those four in the tombs that were in front of her at that point in time.

And aside of that: Looking at what Kun was capable of with the knowledge of Sadow only I doubt that Sadow "wasn't powerful". Sorry. That simply stupid.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
First: She's referring to "one" of "the ancient masters"
Second: She gives that comment while standing right in front of the tombs of Pall, Ragnos, Hord and Sadow
So what? It could mean Pall, Ragnos, Hord, or a number of any other sith during the entire 2,000 years since the Dark Jedi came there. In no way does it mean Sadow.

Yes I know she was referring to the ancient sith, but to assume she was talking about Sadow is ridiculous.

1. Kun apparently had incredible force potential and raw force abilities.
2. Sadow's knowledge apparently didn't make him the force god Kun was.
3. Kreia was referring to pure saber combat or pure combat (I forgot which). It's ridiculous to assume Sadow was included anywhere in this since Ragnos was pretty much the last uber powerful sith.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So what? It could mean Pall, Ragnos, Hord, or a number of any other sith during the entire 2,000 years since the Dark Jedi came there. In no way does it mean Sadow.

Yes I know she was referring to the ancient sith, but to assume she was talking about Sadow is ridiculous.

No, it isn't - given the exact words of Kreia's quote which are:
"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

She's clearly referring to all ancient Sith Lords as a whole and that's a group that would certainly include Naga Sadow.

I'd say the same is true for Sadow as the other Sith are specifically mention that he is indeed powerful because he has true Jedi blood running through his veins.

And what exactly makes you think so ?

See quote above. I see no way how Sadow is not included in "an ancient Sith Lord" which clearly refers to any ancient Sith Lord there was. Sadow was one of them.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
No, it isn't - given the exact words of Kreia's quote which are:
"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

She's clearly referring to all ancient Sith Lords as a whole and that's a group that would certainly include Naga Sadow.
So why is it that you're specifically referring to Sadow when there is no evidence of this whatsoeveR?

So you have to have "true jedi blood" to be powerful? OR rather, you are surely powerful because you have true jedi blood? Hardly an argument Nai.

Gee I don't know, the comics that depict him doing nothing other than throwing a brick? The fact that he was in some way killed by Nadd? The fact that he went into stasis shortly after the hyperspace war ended which means he didn't exactly have centuries to perfect his dark arts? I'm not disputing that Sadow is pretty powerful, but compared to the likes of Kun who took his knowledge to a whole new level? Not even comparable.

Yet you are assuming that Kreia was referring to EVERY ancient sith lord. This would be ridiculous because we've seen very weak ancient sith lords with virtually no abilities.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So why is it that you're specifically referring to Sadow when there is no evidence of this whatsoeveR?

You're stupid.

No. It certainly helps when you have half a dozen Sith Lords that claim you are powerful (for whatever reason). Or we can simply take the fact that you apparently have no point to doubt the power of Naga Sadow who is called powerful by the omniscient narrator and apparently capable of overrunning three worlds simultaneously with troops that consist of 90 % tangible illusions ?

For sure. Creating tangible illusions that form entire armies certainly isn't impressive. Not to mention leaving all that knowledge behind for Kun.

No. I'm not assuming it. It's right before your eyes. She says "an Ancient Sith Lord" without any other specification. And that means: No matter which Ancient Sith Lord you'd pick, he would destroy Kreia in combat. You might question the statement itself or Kreia as a source in general - but the fact remains: Kreia obviously thinks that any of the Ancient Sith would destroy herself or the Exile in combat. And given that Sadow's knowledge turned Kun into a powerhouse in the matter of months I don't even want to know what Sadow could have done, considering he had decades upon decades to amass that knowledge and study the stuff.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
You're stupid.
Says the moron who can't even back up his stupid assertion.

Wonderful. He was called powerful. I'm glad you can substantiate this. He has sexy illusions, this REALLY makes him powerful. By your retarded logic, Aleema is "powerful" too. Not to mention, At the beginning of the comics describing the character, Ludo Kressh was called a "Powerful sith lord" too. Way to prove absolutely nothing.

Then Aleema wtfpwns most people. Leaving knowledge behind for Kun to use doesn't make Sadow powerful. Sadow's best force feat was throwing a brick. Having a lot of knowledge doesn't make you powerful Nai, especially if you don't have the time to use it and master it. Sadow went into stasis shortly after the hyperspace war.

Decades? HE went into stasis after the Hyperspace war. You're ASSUMING he had decades to do something with his knowledge. Sadow COULD have done a lot i'm sure, but there's no reason to assume that he's powerful because he had a lot of his sith alchemy and sith magic. Furthermore, beating Kreia or the Exile in combat isn't a big feat and if you're going to claim "All the ancient sith", then the Jedi on Coruscant during the Hyperspace War must be combat gods because they were fighting these "ancient sith" and defeating them.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
This obviously doesn't happen. Why ? Because you need to focus on every object you affect with the force. In this case on three lightsabers and then you have to think about movement patterns that would make that lightsaber move in a coordinated or dangerous fashion. So basically all you doing is to move the blade with your force powers instead with your physical power which will always require more effort than doing the same with your hand. So obviously fighting with levitating lightsabers can't be as efficient as using a single blade with your hand.

And that's impossible how? Because the great authority on SW Mr.Nai, says so. Nothing about the overriding theme of the force is grounded on hard science. So focusing on three moving lightsabers is quite possible for someone like Kreia, with her power and her mental discipline and focus.

Kreia may not be the most powerful, but she shows a very great degree of mental focus in the way she applies the force.

The impression that she maximizes her force power with meditation and mental focus is clear in the narrative.

So no, it's not impossible.

As far as efficiency goes, of course a single lightsaber is more efficient, however it doesn't change the fact that three lightsabers have the potential to be more dangerous.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you still don't have anything to even suggest that Kreia did handle those lightsabers around in a way which posed a challenge to the Exile. Thanks for agreeing that you don't have a point here.

Nothing to suggest? How about the simple fact that their only purpose was to be a mortal THREAT to the Exile? How about rereading your arguments before you post them?

Tengu

i dont quite undertsand how you can argue an undefineable chracacter to a well- defined character..

Allankles

Originally posted by Tengu
i dont quite undertsand how you can argue an undefineable chracacter to a well- defined character..

Well the Exile is defined enough: female, lightside + we have an idea of what force forms and lightsaber techniques she mastered or knew (unlike Revan) and she has combat feats. In contrast Ulic's skill level is unknown as well, his forms and lightsaber techniques are unknown and he has lesser combat feats.

A debate is open in this case..

Spartan ll

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Says the moron who can't even back up his stupid assertion.

I'm not going to debate with people that can't read, DS.

Apparently those people are powerful and I don't see you coming up with something to argue that position of the omniscient narrator. And I don't have to proof anything. I was referring to Kreia's statement only and Kreia obviously thinks that Sadow (or any other ancient Sith Lord) would be far superior to herself and the Exile in combat. So what ?

Yes, oh great jackass. You did notice that Sadow had already lived for more than a century before he became Dark Lord of the Sith ? Yes ? What do you think he did during that time ? Learning Sith magic maybe ? Doing some Sith Alchemic experiments ? Yes ? Good god.

I'm not assuming anything. He had decades to study his knowledge prior to becoming the Dark Lord. And sorry...the sheer knowledge about certain techniques Kun later shows make Sadow a potentially dangerous foe. Don't see how this can be argued. And since you calling it "no big feat" to beat Kreia or the Exile in combat, I don't see WTF you started arguing with me, troll. Remember...I just asked how Kreia or the Exile would beat the likes of Sadow or Warb Null, given that Kreia herself thinks to be inferior to people like them. Got that now ?

tulakhordpwns

Dude, in almost every fight Luke does post RotJ and before NJO Luke thinks he is going to lose. But he wins. Mace says he could never beat Vastor, then beats in a couple of seconds.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
First of all combat feats matter. Ulic spreading genocidal death is not a combat feat and therefore it is irrelevant. You don't have to be good at combat to start a war. So as usual, your arguments are pretty poor at best. You don't even know when you're spouting useless drivel.

Apparently somebody isn't capable of recognizing sarcasm even if it jumps right into his face. Thank you for proving that you're a dumbass once more.

You can't be that dumb. Really. It can't be.
Atris had five years tops to study some holocrons. The Sith possessing Dovos, growing up in the Ancient Sith Empire, had decades or centuries learning from a greater knowledge source (as he grew up in an enviroment dominated by the Sith Arts). How can Atris possible have more Sith knowledge ?

Apparently you once more didn't get it. My argument is that generations of accumaleted Jedi and Sith Lore studied by a guy over decades or even centuries > some Jedi and Sith Lord in holocrons studied by a woman for some years. Got that into your head now ? What you do is basically assuming that an Ancient Sith Lord (who are all force users, all descendants of former Jedi and all pretty knowledgeable in terms of Sith magic / alchemy) didn't know jack shit about Jedi and (even more hilarious) Sith powers. But I suck at debates ? Hooray.

Apparently you ignoring the fact that Dovos wasn't a force user. The Sith spirit apparently turned him into a being capable of matching (and even overpowering) Jedi in combat. Considering that Dovos was a regular human before, this is quite impressive. And your oh so knowledgeable Atris seems to be limited to some force lightning when it comes down to Sith Arts. Why doesn't that sound impressive, eh ?

Thanks for trying to dodge the argument with some pointless ad hominem talk. Maybe you want to go check the fundamental workings of the SW universe (such as: using the force needs some focus / concentration) before holding yourself up to ridicule further. And we're not on the same page, not even in the same book if you can't even understand such basic concepts.

You apparently still not mentally capable to grasp the point. I'm trying to explain it to you one more time:

a) Wielding a lightsaber with your hand requires skill of the amount X
b) Doing the same thing with telekinesis requires skill of the amount X + concentration / focus / force power of the amount Y

So. Wielding around one blade telekinetically already requires more effort than doing the same thing with your hand. Understand that so far ? If yes...you may understand as why wielding around three blades telekinetically wouldn't be as easy as fighting with one blade in your hand.

Did somebody argue that ? No. Does that mean that if she levitates three lightsabers those must automatically form a deadly whirlwind of lightsaber blades cutting through anything ? Nope.

Oh. Somebody finally got the point. Yes. The potential to be more dangerous but as we don't know how Kreia used them (unless you want to use the ingame animation for detail) you can't simply state that : "Zomg. Fighting against three lightsabers must require far more skill than fighting against one." Because this is wrong unless you quantify the skill of the corresponding opponent. Which is either nonexistant (going by ingame animations) or not quantifyable.

No. The simply fact is that Kreia only started with the levitating after she didn't have any hand left any longer to fight with the Exile. Of course those blades should have been a mortal thread for the Exile but that doesn't mean that they were. Because, I point it out just one more time: Had they be more dangerous to the Exile than one blade, Kreia would have used them from the beginning on. End of story.

Lightsnake

Isn't it an RPG rule that the final boss saves their trump card till last, though? It's a classic rule: You need to fight the villain's numerous forms, with each getting progressively stronger.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm not going to debate with people that can't read, DS.
I don't see you debating at all. I see you assuming that Sadow was powerful because Kreia said the ancient sith were powerful.

Except in no way can you quantify power in this situation. However we CAN compare it to others and come to the conclusion that they are not nearly as powerful as most of the SW characters.

And what is it that he took with him to Yavin IV? Oh right, he had 1 piece of paper.

Gosh, you are one of the very few morons who not only abuse the word troll, but obviously have no concept of its meaning. I suggest you stop riding other people's nuts until you gain further understanding of that word.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently somebody isn't capable of recognizing sarcasm even if it jumps right into his face. Thank you for proving that you're a dumbass once more.

HA! You cal it sarcasm when it's not, regardless it was irrelevant. You started by saying: "stop arguing feat wars." I'm making it clear that COMBAT feats are relevant in this assessment for obvious reasons. Are you sure you don't have some kind of reasoning deficiencies.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Atris had five years tops to study some holocrons. The Sith possessing Dovos, growing up in the Ancient Sith Empire, had decades or centuries learning from a greater knowledge source (as he grew up in an enviroment dominated by the Sith Arts). How can Atris possible have more Sith knowledge ?.

The Sith possessing Dovos was just some random dark spirit. There's no evidence, both in what he accomplished through Dovos and what was said about him suggest he had anywhere near as much knowledge as Atris. Atrsi was studying the generations of accumulated Jedi knowledge on Sith Lore and surrounded herself with many Sith holocrons. Dovos's spirit represents only one holocron (if at all).

Yes, logic, evidence dictates that Atris had more knowledge at her disposal and therefore was more knowledgeable in the force than some unknown random Sith spirit.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you once more didn't get it. My argument is that generations of accumaleted Jedi and Sith Lore studied by a guy over decades or even centuries > some Jedi and Sith Lord in holocrons studied by a woman for some years. Got that into your head now ? What you do is basically assuming that an Ancient Sith Lord (who are all force users, all descendants of former Jedi and all pretty knowledgeable in terms of Sith magic / alchemy) didn't know jack shit about Jedi and (even more hilarious) Sith powers. But I suck at debates ? Hooray.?.

The random Sith spirit never possessed the knowledge of generations of accumulated Sith lore, because there is simply no evidence that he possessed anything but the rudimentary knowledge. Unless you have evidence Nai, you don't have an argument.

The only thing this oh-so-glorious Sith spirit accomplished, was getting trapped in a sith manuscript and then giving Warb Null some clearly ineffective medieval-looking armor. Whereas Atris was a Jedi historian who did extensive study and research on the force, going as far as studying a galaxies worth of accumulated Sith Lore for 5 or more years. I would say there's greater evidence of Atris having greater knowledge.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Thanks for trying to dodge the argument with some pointless ad hominem talk. Maybe you want to go check the fundamental workings of the SW universe (such as: using the force needs some focus / concentration) before holding yourself up to ridicule further. And we're not on the same page, not even in the same book if you can't even understand such basic concepts.

Thanks for clarifying to me that you have no firm grasp of fiction. You didn't have an argument. Who said using the force doesn't need focus? However there's nothing to suggest, that manipulating three lightsabers with TK is impossible. We've seen more difficult feats accomplished. The gist of your argument can be summarized as : "My opinion is the ultimate authority on all things Kotor 2?"

If you don't even show a grasp of the concept of fiction how the hell can you form a logical argument?

Darth Sexy

Allankles, you are the only one on any of these forums that doesn't know when to shut up, especially after you've been pwned for about 6 pages. Seriously, you have no argument, nor did you ever, so shut up.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't see you debating at all. I see you assuming that Sadow was powerful because Kreia said the ancient sith were powerful.

No. I did just state that I don't see Kreia or the Exile defeating somebody like Sadow or Kun because she practically states that she is inferior to Sadow. There is nothing to debate here.

Right dude. The next person coming up with armies of tangible illusions was...not Aleema Keto but DE Luke Skywalker on the Dark Side. And while that action alone is pretty damn impressive, Sadow apparently knew some quite uncommon techniques. Rip the spirit of a force user out of his body ? Store spirits of Jedi in Sith crystals ? Force drain ? And in addition some nice amount of Sith gimmics including his amulet. The guy with his amassed power, knowledge and tools is definetely more impressive than most "ancient" SW characters.

WTF ? Are you confusing Sadow with Kun or Nadd ? Apparently Sadow left an entire alchemical apparatus behind and enough knowledge to have...

a) ...Kun considering Sadow's secret a danger for him until he has finally mastered them.
b) ...the omiscient narrator saying that Kun enters "a world of Sith magic" when he discovers what Sadow left behind.

That aside from the fact that we see different books and scrolls everywhere that were apparently left behind by Sadow.

Gosh, I accuse you of being a troll. You deny it and come up with more trolling. Hooray. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
HA! You cal it sarcasm when it's not, regardless it was irrelevant. You started by saying: "stop arguing feat wars." I'm making it clear that COMBAT feats are relevant in this assessment for obvious reasons. Are you sure you don't have some kind of reasoning deficiencies.

That bit about Ulic clearly was sarcasm as I was pointing out how feat war works. Fact: You're using the Exile's defeats of opponents that were vunerable because of the Exile's very nature and the fact that the Exile's nature as unique to put the Exile above Ulic. Why: "Because only the Exile could have done this and that" (e.g. killing Nihilus).

Now simple question for you once more: Assuming Ulic was a wound in the force and had the knowledge required to break Sion's will. Could he have repeated the Exile's feat ? Yes. Vice versa: Could the Exile have repeated Ulic's feats ? I doubt she would have managed to stalemate Kun in a fight or hold off a Jedi without any force powers.

So who's the superior combatant here ?

Dude. How stupid are you ? Let me do it step by step for you.

a) All Ancient Sith had access to Jedi lore as they were the descendants of former Rogue Jedi.
b) All Ancient Sith had access to Sith lore as they lived in an enviroment where it was commonly used.
c) The Sith spirit that possessed Dovos belongs to the group I named as "all ancient Sith" hence points "a" and "b" also apply to him.

Logic dictates that the Sith spirit had more knowledge because he lived in an enviroment dominated by force user far longer than Atris did study the force and especially the Dark Side. If you want to go by evidence, all that Atris does is using some force lightning. I'd say that equipping somebody with the ability to understand a foreign language instantly and then turn that non-force-sensitive metallurgic student into a fighting machine capable of taking it up with several Jedi pretty much trumps some force lightning. Which, in this case, really is something that "your average nightsister can repicate".

Right. Ancient Sith. Grew up in enviroment dominated by Sith Lore. Can't possibly have anything but "rudimentary knowledge" about said Sith Lord. Holy crap. That's the equivalent of saying that somebody who spent a century in the Jedi library on Ossus would have no idea about the Jedi order or Jedi lore. And evidence ? If you call granting somebody the ability to understand some ancient writings instantly and then turn him from some nobody into a guy that take it up with several Jedi "rudimentary knowledge" I can't really help you.

See above and stop boring me. A "galaxies worth of Sith Lore" ? Lmao. She had what - a dozen holocrons ? I'd really like to know how long Atris needed to study the Ancient Sith language which would have been the first step to even understand what those holocrons contained. And if all somebody can do with that uber freaking huge amount of knowledge is flooring a newly trained force user with force lightning, that knowledge can't have been too impressive or can it - at least if you consider what Kun was capable of after studying some scrolls for (according to you) some weaks.

Apparently you are still not getting the point. Of course somebody can affect more than one object with TK. That wasn't my point. My point was that wielding three lightsabers around with telekinesis in a way that results in those three sabers being more dangerous then one blade wielded by the very same force user in the regular fashion is an extremely unlikely if not impossible task. Reason: The force user would have to envision movement patterns for three lightsabers simultaneously (and coordinating two lightsabers is already reserved for the most skilled duellist - simply add another). And then the force user has to apply the TK on the lightsabers to move them exactly as he thinks they should move.

If you want something compareable: Try to do one task with your left hand, one with the right and something with one of your feet. At the same time read a book, talk with somebody about a topic not related you your movement task or the book and this while writing something to a third topic. You might consider that equal to what you suggest Kreia did while I assume she did something equivalent to juggling three balls while telling a story.

Apparently you don't have a grasp of the concept called "fiction". That something is fictional doesn't mean that "anything goes" and that rules defined for a fictional universe suddenly don't apply to that universe any longer because you don't want them to. It also doesn't mean that concepts from the real world don't apply to the fictional realm.

Now. Was that all clear enough for you or do I have to find a translator who speaks fluent moron ?

Darth Sexy

Gosh Nai, you don't have to double post your indignant lather. We all heard you, and well, I(we) don't care.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I did just state that I don't see Kreia or the Exile defeating somebody like Sadow or Kun because she practically states that she is inferior to Sadow. There is nothing to debate here.
I agree

Except I've made my case on the other forum and have yet to receive a response for 3 days in terms of Kun's force drain. Since you can't prove that it was Kun doing the drain and since the scan is 100% inconclusive, the point about him doing the force drain by himself is moot. Furthermore, you don't know when Sadow learned these techniques. For all you know, he learned them on Yavin IV. In fact, that's the most plausable explanation since he didn't exactly impress while the DLOTS. ALso, notice how Aleema was able to create giant creatures while in her meditation sphere. Looks like those two needed the sphere to do something on that level, while Luke didn't.

Which he most likely learned on Yavin IV. IF you notice at the end of FOTSE, he had one scroll with him.

I highly doubt you can substantiate that hyperbole.

Considering the fact that it's usually you who initiates the childish name calling and the random inconsequential bullshit, I'd say you were the troll.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except I've made my case on the other forum and have yet to receive a response for 3 days in terms of Kun's force drain. Since you can't prove that it was Kun doing the drain and since the scan is 100% inconclusive, the point about him doing the force drain by himself is moot. Furthermore, you don't know when Sadow learned these techniques. For all you know, he learned them on Yavin IV. In fact, that's the most plausable explanation since he didn't exactly impress while the DLOTS. ALso, notice how Aleema was able to create giant creatures while in her meditation sphere. Looks like those two needed the sphere to do something on that level, while Luke didn't.

Oh my god.
Can you tell me one thing: If Kun wasn't capable of performing a force drain then how the hell do you think he would have been able to construct various machines (assuming the mentioned "Sith power objects" in the comics are some of them, adding the Dark Reaper) that are based on that very technique ? Right. He can't.

And are you stupid, DS ? You really want to assume that Sadow learned everything he could do in a relative short amount of time on Yavin 4 instead in more than a century in which he studied Sith magic (for example under Simus) ? Not that it would even matter because Sadow in his top shape apparently knew the techniques and he obviously left the stuff for Kun to study.

Aside of that: A meditation sphere would help people to use their force powers how exactly except granting them a quiet enviroment to focus on their force use completely ? I've never seen anything to suggest that a medidation sphere does anything else but that (e.g. boosting somebodies force powers or something similar).

Which is again blatant bullshit. He studied the force for more than a century before. And in case you can't figure it out yourself: Most people have the greater part of their knowledge in their head or do you carry around several books with you everywhere you go. Not to mention that your conclusion that because we see Sadow holding a single scroll in his hand at the end of FOTSE he just could have that single scroll with him is pretty stupid.

And I highly doubt that I have to substantiate quotes of the omniscient narrator, especially when we see what Kun was capable of doing after studying the stuff Sadow left behind for some weeks / months.

Wow. Considering that "trolling" doesn't mean "namecalling" I guess you're the guy here who doesn't know what the term means, eh ? But let me explain it to you: It's a term for spouting out antagonizing posts on a forum without having a reason to do so. In this case you're trying to argue Sadow's power despite of the fact that you agree with me that neither the Exile nor Kreia would have a chance against him or Kun. Reason for that ? Apparently none ? Conclusion: Troll. Anything else to say, DS ?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my god.
Can you tell me one thing: If Kun wasn't capable of performing a force drain then how the hell do you think he would have been able to construct various machines (assuming the mentioned "Sith power objects" in the comics are some of them, adding the Dark Reaper) that are based on that very technique ? Right. He can't.
This is incredibly stupid and wtfpwned your own argument. The answer is easy. It's the same reason why Sadow needed the ship to tear the core out of the sun, the same reason why Kun needed the amulet to perform the blasts, and the same reason most of the ancient sith used amulets. BECAUSE THEY COULDNT DO IT THEMSELVES.

My argument was that he brought one sheet of paper with him. The comics reinforce my point. Burden of proof is on you.

No it's not stupid, it's fact. He may have had a LOT of knowledge in his head, but that scroll was ALL he appeared to have.

6 months to be exact.

Yea, you're a trolling idiot. Everytime you post you include some useless insult because you can't get your point across or you are arguing out of ignorance, ergo your posts are meant to do nothing but antagonize.. Thanks for playing, troll.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is incredibly stupid and wtfpwned your own argument. The answer is easy. It's the same reason why Sadow needed the ship to tear the core out of the sun, the same reason why Kun needed the amulet to perform the blasts, and the same reason most of the ancient sith used amulets. BECAUSE THEY COULDNT DO IT THEMSELVES.

Dude. That examples would actually apply if:
a) Sadow couldn't use telekinesis
b) Kun couldn't project beams of Dark Side energy

Apparently both premises are wrong. Because they can do the stuff if - and that is the only point here - only on a smaller scale. That, however, doesn't change the fact that Kun obviously knew the technique and therefor was able to use it. Regardless if he did it with the Massassi or used some machines he constructed himself to do it. KKTHXBYE.

No. Your argument is that Sadow's entire knowledge (note: after studying Sith Magic and Alchemy for more than a century) is equal to one sheet of paper. That's simply ridiculous. Especially if you consider that Odan finds one holocron on some random Sith ship at the end of the comic and especially if you consider what Kun later finds in Sadows former possessions.

You can't be that stupid. Really. You simply can't be.

No. That's the time passing between the end of DLOTS and the beginning of TSW. But we neither know how much time Kun had to study the stuff before going to confront Ulic and we neither know exactly how long the Sith War did actually last.

No need to lose your temper, kid. We both know who of us two got banned over and over on several boards for trolling, right ? You can keep talking but I guess reality doesn't care much about your rants. But please keep it coming. I find that stuff highly amusing. Especially since you seem to think that somebody actually cares. Maybe somebody does. I, however, don't.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Allankles, you are the only one on any of these forums that doesn't know when to shut up, especially after you've been pwned for about 6 pages. Seriously, you have no argument, nor did you ever, so shut up.

Please Saxy we've been through this before. How about you show an inlking of an ability to reason, and realize that posting this bs is NEVER relevant. Especially, when you don't address a single counter argument. Every idiot and their pet can write this bs. Seriously you have no argument, nor did you ever, so shut up.

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad
No, it isn't - given the exact words of Kreia's quote which are:
"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

How many times have we had this argument? And how many times has it been refuted? Really, you people like to throw quotes around loosely without considering context. Kreia only mentions: "if you were to face the ancients in combat you would be as children playing with toys", when the Exile asks about the reasons for Tulak Hords exceptional LIGHTSABER mastery.

The answer by Kreia (the quote) relates to LIGHTSABER combat specifically. And Sadow and his cadre of OVERRATED Sith Lords NEVER used lightsabers.

Therefore Kreia was never referring to the ancients from the comics -why would she, when the comics display them as weak combatants? But a different generation that actually used lightsabers.

Do you understand the significance of context here or do I need to metaphorically beat you over the head here with concepts of supporting evidence?

Allankles

Originally posted by Borbarad

Apparently you don't have a grasp of the concept called "fiction". That something is fictional doesn't mean that "anything goes" and that rules defined for a fictional universe suddenly don't apply to that universe any longer because you don't want them to. It also doesn't mean that concepts from the real world don't apply to the fictional realm.

Riight? So according to Einstein here there are specific rules defining whether or not a Jedi can control three lightsabers? And I'm guessing there were rules defining whether or not a Jedi could become immortal? Or drain planets of life? Or shoot emerald lightning from their a**? When are you going to stop making a fool of yourself?

What we have here is a man who doesn't know when to draw the line between opinions generated from his own fan fiction, and fiction itself, as an avenue of NEW ideas entirely independent from reality.

Apparently the idea of telekinetically controlling three lightsabers is so exceptionally foreign to the concept of the force, that Nai can't accept it. I'll say it again, get the f**k out of here with this idiocy.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Allankles
How many times have we had this argument? And how many times has it been refuted? Really, you people like to throw quotes around loosely without considering context. Kreia only mentions: "if you were to face the ancients in combat you would be as children playing with toys", when the Exile asks about the reasons for Tulak Hords exceptional LIGHTSABER mastery.

I have provided the exact quote, didn't I ? Yes.
Does Kreia mention lightsabers anywhere ? Nope.
Does Kreia specify a certain era or a group of Sith Lords somewhere ? Nope.

She talks about the combat prowess of the Ancient Sith. I don't see where you are pulling the lightsabers from. To have that making sense you would have to assume that a lightsaber is somehow superior to the swords the ancient Sith carry around. And that, dear friend, would be illogical as they obviously sacrificed the lightsaber technology to use those swords. That aside from the fact that there isn't much difference between wielding a lightsaber and a regular saber. If you did read Path of Destruction you'd see that the Sith are actually utilizing metal blades for training.

First: Stupid conclusion. You're clearly talking out of your ass once more. Why would Kreia mention "Ancient Sith" right in front of the tombs of two Sith Lords appearing in the comics but just refer to some assorted group of Ancient Sith that used lightsabers (which are completely non-existant outside the realm of KotoR in other words the only member of such group would be Tulak Hord - as in the overall continuity, the Sith are wielding swords from the beginning of the Sith Empire to it's end).

Second: How the hell are they depicted as "weak" in combat. There freaking minions are descriped as unstoppable army that even battle meditation is completely useless against and the only Sith Lords we really see fighting in the comics are Sadow and Kressh - against each other. I wonder how you draw the conclusion there, that they must have sucked in combat when they apparently move their blades fast enough to have afterimages appear behind their weapons and they are just fighting another Sith Lord. Holy shit.

Third: If you want to go by what is shown in the comics without giving a thought about the limitations of the medium I'll go by the gameplay of the KotoR games. I guess we can rest the discussion instantly then given how the characters in KotoR perform combat, eh ?

Do you understand that, if we follow your dumbass interpretation attempt, Kreia should have said: "If we were to face Tulak Hord in lightsaber combat, we would look like children playing with toys because of the lightsaber combat prowess of the ancient masters." instead of dropping the line she actually said. Because Tulak Hord is the only Ancient Sith Lord that has ever used a lightsaber. Not to mention that you would have to assume that a Sith Lord would absolutely suck against a lightsaber user - and in this case I have to laugh since Jaden Korr apparently had some problems with beating Ragnos spirit posessing a midiocre force user wielding a Sith sword. Ups ?

Are you simply retarded or completely inable to follow a line of thought - even if it's your own ?

Yes. And that man is you. Explanation follows:

Why can't you simply get it into your f*cking head. No the idea of telekinetically controllign three lightsabers is the "complicated" thing here but your idea that somebody can use TK to control three lightsabers in such a way that those three sabers will pose a greater thread than one lightsaber wielded by hand. Got that now. Because to have three lightsabers performing some pseudo-whirlwind-of-death lightsaber movements, one would need to know how to coordinated three lightsabers (which nobody does because normally you can't wield more than two) while coordinating two is already reserved (in most cases) to extremely skilled lightsaber duellists. Yet add one. And then add the fact that force use would require additional focus (aside from the brain task to have those lightsabers moving in a deadly fashion).

You can talk as much as you want but I don't see anything to suggest that Kreia levitating those three blades was more deadly than the same Kreia fighting with a lightsaber in her hand before. It was a desperate movement because she lost her weaponhand and the game (argue that this are game mechanics...I don't care) depicts her as doing nothing special with those blades. If you just come here to force down your interpretation as fact - don't come back. Won't work.