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Who would prevail if both beings where to collide?

Um, MJJ. And rather easily.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, MJJ. And rather easily.

Easily? How does one defeat a being who is Forever Easily?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Easily? How does one defeat a being who is Forever Easily?

Eternity is "Forever"

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/816/eterninfinruletheuniverse3ib.th.jpg



Guess what happened to "Forever" when Jaspers came across it?

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Eternity is "Forever"

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/816/eterninfinruletheuniverse3ib.th.jpg



Guess what happened to "Forever" when Jaspers came across it?

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg



Dream is beyond Eternity. Who is a big Jobber. basically Jasper would have to kill everything including himself to beat Dream.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
basically Jasper would have to kill everything including himself to beat Dream.



So what else is new?

I'm not going to entertain the circles that will be dominating this thread.

Peace yall. stoned

Originally posted by Mr Master


So what else is new?

I'm not going to entertain the circles that will be dominating this thread.

Peace yall. stoned

just testing the knowlege of the forum.

IF MJJ could render himself, as well as every other being in existence "thoughtless"... He could destroy the concept of Dream.

Originally posted by Galan007
IF MJJ could render himself, as well as every other being in existence "thoughtless"... He could destroy the concept of Dream.

then he'd win and be a veggie. But does MJJ have that kind of omniversal power to do it all at once? And what can dream do to strike back at MJJ?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
then he'd win and be a veggie. But does MJJ have that kind of omniversal power to do it all at once? And what can dream do to strike back at MJJ? MJJ could easily render every being in his warp without thoughts or dreams.

However,

IF MJJ was able to wipe his own mind, he would be depowering himself at the same time...


Think about it.... What do the powers of a top-tier reality manipulator mainly depend on?

Thoughts/visions/dreams.

ALL of which keep Morpheus "needed" as a concept.

I never finished reading Sandman, but why did Morpheus hand over being the Endless Dream, to Hector Hall's son, Daniel?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
why did Morpheus hand over being the Endless Dream, to Hector Hall's son, Daniel? In the words of Lucifer...

"Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom, eh, Dream Lord? --- The freedom to leave."

Originally posted by Galan007
In the words of Lucifer...

"Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom, eh, Dream Lord? --- The freedom to leave."

heh..I like that

Originally posted by Galan007
MJJ could easily render every being in his warp without thoughts or dreams.

Definitely.

Originally posted by Galan007
However,

IF MJJ was able to wipe his own mind, he would be depowering himself at the same time...

Assuming Jaspers needs to dream to begin with. (he can easily supress the concept)

But beyond that, why would Jaspers need to wipe out his own mind?

When Jaspers controls any concept within his warp, (like dreams)
and that applies to himself just aswell.

If Jaspers needed to wipe out his own mind to control/defeat "Dream" (a Concept)
then Jaspers would've had to wipe himself out entirely
to control/overcome Time & Space (616 Universe) which he warped.

Originally posted by Galan007
Think about it.... What do the powers of a top-tier reality manipulator mainly depend on?

Thoughts/visions/dreams.

ALL of which keep Morpheus "needed" as a concept.

A thought is not a dream though.

And that is all Jaspers needs to control any concept within his warp.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Eternity is "Forever"

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/816/eterninfinruletheuniverse3ib.th.jpg



Guess what happened to "Forever" when Jaspers came across it?

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg

u pawned him with his own logic.

The Endless control the opposite of their own aspect, so Dream controls reality as well

Originally posted by Mr Master
Assuming Jaspers needs to dream to begin with. (he can easily supress the concept)

But beyond that, why would Jaspers need to wipe out his own mind?

When Jaspers controls any concept within his warp, (like dreams)
and that applies to himself just aswell.

If Jaspers needed to wipe out his own mind to control/defeat "Dream" (a Concept)
then Jaspers would've had to wipe himself out entirely
to control/overcome Time & Space (616 Universe) which he warped.

A thought is not a dream though.

And that is all Jaspers needs to control any concept within his warp. Morpheus = lord of all that's associated with dreams, .


Anyhow,

The only real way MJJ could eliminate the concept Morpheus represents, would be to make everyone in his warp a completely thoughtless vegetable, .

Even IF Jaspers accomplished this, not only would he be powerless, but he would have only succeeded in defeating a Universal aspect of Morpheus, Multiversal entity].

Originally posted by Galan007
Morpheus = lord of all that's associated with dreams,
.

First time I ever here that my thoughts are dreams.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyhow,

The only real way MJJ could eliminate the concept Morpheus represents, would be to make everyone in his warp a completely thoughtless vegetable,

Thoughts aren't dreams.
Dreams take place in the subconscious.
Thoughts are produced in the conscious mind.

Jaspers can elimate the Concept of Dreams,
by twisting it's fundamental and/or abstract nature,

or simply by replacing the Concept with himself
(Like he did with all the 616 concepts)

Originally posted by Galan007
.

Again, Jaspers can eliminate the Concept of dreams.
Or Jaspers can replace the concept with himself.
Or Jaspers can create a Reality where the concept of Dreams is non-existent,
or inconsequential.

So many options for one who is,

Jaspers = lord of all Reality in his warp.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even IF Jaspers accomplished this, not only would he be powerless,

This is under the circumstances that You personally have created,
where Jaspers would need to make everyone a vegy including himself.

The fact is, that Jaspers was proven to be above Concepts on panel,
like becoming the 616 Universe.

Jaspers was above Merlyn,
who has manipulated/controlled every concept in the Omniverse.

Jaspers can negate or allow any and every aspect or concept
that's part of Reality within his warp.


eg. Jaspers doesn't have to erase your intestines,
to create a Reality where no one needs to take a shit anymore.

Because if he wishes it, it is, no matter how irrational or illogical his whim.

Originally posted by Galan007
but he would have only succeeded in defeating a Universal aspect of Morpheus, .

It begins at the Universal level,
and soon enough the Multiverse would be next,
and then the Omniverse.

No place left for a dream to take place.

Jaspers >>> Merlyn (Omniversal power)

Originally posted by Mr Master
First time I ever here that my thoughts are dreams.



Thoughts aren't dreams.
Dreams take place in the subconscious.
Thoughts are produced in the conscious mind.

Jaspers can elimate the Concept of Dreams,
by twisting it's fundamental and/or abstract nature You're saying one isn't thinking when they dream?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're saying one isn't thinking when they dream?

I'm saying one isn't dreaming when they think.

Which is why Jaspers wouldn't have to make anyone an unthinking vegy
in order to rub out the concept of Dreams.

Jaspers would probably have to elimate the luxury of dreams from all beings,
but we do what must be done to win.

Or the other option is becoming the concept itself.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm saying one isn't dreaming when they think.

Which is why Jaspers wouldn't have to make anyone an unthinking vegy
in order to rub out the concept of Dreams. Thoughts and dreams are what make Morpheus a concept... They are what he embodies as a member of the Endless.

To unmake him in that one Universe, you would HAVE to remove the thoughts from every lifeform, (Jaspers included.)


And MJJ without thought, is a powerless MJJ. But that would get him the win.

dreams are still thoughts, thoughts are concepts created by your mind they are then divided into conscious and subconscious. Lucid dreaming is the act of being conscious in your dreams. Daydreaming is similar but does not require sleep but many thoughts from the subconscious can arise in a daydream. Then there are people who meditate and do trance work bringing elements of both conscious and subconscious thoughts into action simultaneously, then there is memory which is housed in the subconscious mind and accessed consciously and sometimes intuitively if it's memory based on a routine action like breathing. Point being dreams are thoughts and conscious and subconscious are what make up the mind and by extension the thought process.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thoughts and dreams are what make Morpheus a concept...
They are what he embodies as a member of the Endless.

I thought he was the embodiment of Dreams.

not of Conscious Thoughts as well.

For the record, conscious Thoughts are Not Dreams.

Originally posted by Galan007
To unmake him in that one Universe,

Which exponentially would expand into the entire Omniverse.

Originally posted by Galan007
you would HAVE to remove the thoughts from every lifeform, (Jaspers included.)

So even if the Concept of Dreams is made null/void,

Morpheus is still lingering around because beings Think?


Can I have some scan or issue # that states
Morph is the embodiment of Thoughts as well as Dreams?

Originally posted by Galan007
And MJJ without thought, is a powerless MJJ.

Actually MJJ's Warp expands automatically on it's own.

Jaspers only needs to think in order to manipulate the contents within his Warp.

Originally posted by Galan007
But that would get him the win.

Cool.

Meh,

Don't care to debate any further really.


I've stated my stance of the subject a few times now, stating it again would just waste time.

Originally posted by LordKaos
dreams are still thoughts, thoughts are concepts created by your mind they are then divided into conscious and subconscious. Lucid dreaming is the act of being conscious in your dreams. Daydreaming is similar but does not require sleep but many thoughts from the subconscious can arise in a daydream. Then there are people who meditate and do trance work bringing elements of both conscious and subconscious thoughts into action simultaneously, then there is memory which is housed in the subconscious mind and accessed consciously and sometimes intuitively if it's memory based on a routine action like breathing. Point being dreams are thoughts and conscious and subconscious are what make up the mind and by extension the thought process.

Nice.

In the end though,

Thoughts are NOT dreams.

Unless we're dreaming right now as we speak.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh,

Don't care to debate any further really.

As you wish.

Originally posted by Galan007
I've stated my stance of the subject a few times now,
stating it again would just waste time.

I didn't know I was asking you to repeat yourself.

Besides your claim, I asked for proof that states,
Morpheus is the embodiment of Thoughts as well as Dreams.

I don't remember asking it before,
so you didn't bring closer to that point.


And I reminded you that Jaspers would not be left powerless because he stops thinking.

Why?

Because Jaspers' Warp expnads exponentially on it's own,
Jaspers only needs to Think
in order to manipulate the area affected by his Warp.

I never said thoughts were dreams I said dreams are thougths. And with the division of consciousness, from a subconscious view dreaming is the way your subconscious mind thinks. Futhermore one part of your mind does not shut down because the other is dominate so for all we know since most of us have no way of knowing what's going on in our SC mind when awake you quite possibly could be dreaming right now and not be aware because your conscious mind is now dominant. Not to mention the SC is pretty much where everything we have ever experienced is stored and can be accessed via dreams or memory.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Because Jaspers' Warp expnads exponentially on it's own,
Jaspers only needs to Think
in order to manipulate the area affected by his Warp. That is what keeps Morpheus alive as a concept.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I never said thoughts were dreams I said dreams are thougths. And with the division of consciousness, from a subconscious view dreaming is the way your subconscious mind thinks. Futhermore one part of your mind does not shut down because the other is dominate so for all we know since most of us have no way of knowing what's going on in our SC mind when awake you quite possibly could be dreaming right now and not be aware because your conscious mind is now dominant. Not to mention the SC is pretty much where everything we have ever experienced is stored and can be accessed via dreams or memory.

I was just making sure we understood that Conscious Thoughts,
have nothing to do with Dreams.

Now Dreams may depend on Thoughts,
but that's inconsequential concerning this specific debate.

Originally posted by Galan007
That is what keeps Morpheus alive as a concept.

Good thing Jaspers doesn't need to think
for his Warp to overwhelm Time/Space and everything in it.

Also, can you post the scan or issue #
where it's stated that Morpheus is the embodiment of Thoughts
as well as Dreams.

I have the collection, point me in the direction.

It's not inconsequential it seems to be the basis of the debate the last few posts (that's what I found most interesting about this thread), and I wouldn't go so far as saying that dreams have nothing to do with conscious thoughts because of the phenomena known as lucid dreaming when you are just as "awake" as you are in the real world. The two are only separated by a thin veil that can be crossed with the right knowledge. I myself through study and meditation over the course of about 10 years can induce lucid dreams whenever I feel like it, sometimes even confusing the two thinking that I am actually awake when I'm asleep and sometimes being confused about whether I dreamed something or if it really happened, those of course being the most extreme cases.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Good thing Jaspers doesn't need to think
for his Warp to overwhelm Time/Space and everything in it. Huh?

MJJ would have to think for things to change.... The changes he made didn't just happen for no reason lol.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also, can you post the scan or issue #
where it's stated that Morpheus is the embodiment of Thoughts
as well as Dreams. Dreams are nothing more then thoughts..


When one is rendered unable to think,

Then, and only then, would the concept Morpheus embodies no longer be needed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Huh?

That's right.

Originally posted by Galan007
MJJ would have to think for things to change....
The changes he made didn't just happen for no reason lol.

That's what I said lol.

Jaspers only needs to think to manipulate Reality within his Warp.

But the Warp itself (which makes Reality His) expands exponentially and on it's own.

Originally posted by Galan007
Dreams are nothing more then thoughts..

But Thoughts are Not dreams.

And in the conscious world, we'll be dealing with Thoughts, not dreams.

Originally posted by Galan007
When one is rendered unable to think,

Then, and only then, would the concept Morpheus embodies no longer be needed.

Perhaps in the DC Reality where thoughts are dreams.

But in Marvel, Thoughts are not dreams, just like in the real world.

So I guesss it depends where they're situated.


And again,

can you show us or tell me where it's stated that Morph is the embodiment of Thoughts?

Cause I swore he was the embodiment of Dreams.
Hence the name "Dream."

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's what I said lol.

Jaspers only needs to think to manipulate Reality within his Warp.

No it's not:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Good thing Jaspers doesn't need to think
for his Warp to overwhelm Time/Space and everything in it.



Originally posted by Mr Master
So I guesss it depends where they're situated.I can go for that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And again,

can you show us or tell me where it's stated that Morph is the embodiment of Thoughts?

Cause I swore he was the embodiment of Dreams.
Hence the name "Dream." I'm pretty sure I've explained my stance on that...

What are dreams?

-Thoughts.


So it only stands to reason that Morpheus not only controls dreams, but thoughts as well... part of what he embodies].

Originally posted by Mr Master
Good thing Jaspers doesn't need to think
for his Warp to overwhelm Time/Space and everything in it.

Also, can you post the scan or issue #
where it's stated that Morpheus is the embodiment of Thoughts
as well as Dreams.

I have the collection, point me in the direction.

Wouldn't he need to think in order to control the warp? Or else it would just be uncontrolled energy, for someone else to come and take over.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's right.



That's what I said lol.

Jaspers only needs to think to manipulate Reality within his Warp.

But the Warp itself (which makes Reality His) expands exponentially and on it's own.



But Thoughts are Not dreams.

And in the conscious world, we'll be dealing with Thoughts, not dreams.



Perhaps in the DC Reality where thoughts are dreams.

But in Marvel, Thoughts are not dreams, just like in the real world.

So I guesss it depends where they're situated.


And again,

can you show us or tell me where it's stated that Morph is the embodiment of Thoughts?

Cause I swore he was the embodiment of Dreams.
Hence the name "Dream."

Morph Beat the star conquerer who uses THOUGHTS and an enormous psi power. Not dreams.

Originally posted by Galan007
No it's not:

Yes it is.

Be thorough brother G, you know I dislike the opposite.

I clearly said,

"Good thing Jaspers doesn't need to think
for his Warp to overwhelm Time/Space and everything in it"


Again,

Jaspers' WARP expands on it's own, Warping Reality on it's own.

It turns Reality into mush, because that's what Jaspers' Mind is ... insanity.


I have the proof if needed.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm pretty sure I've explained my stance on that...

What are dreams?

-Thoughts.

What are thoughts?

Not dreams.

Originally posted by Galan007
So it only stands to reason that Morpheus not only controls dreams,
but thoughts as well... part of what he embodies].

So you have no proof, this is just your personal opinion?

Morpheus may control thoughts that take place in dreams.

But ol' Morph can not
and does not control Thoughts in the conscious world,
which have NO association with "dreams"


Now if you have proof, I'll gladly concede.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So you have no proof, this is just your personal opinion? The only proof I need is that you think when you Dream.

So to say Morpheus doesn't control thoughts to some degree is ludacris, .

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes it is.

Be thorough brother G, you know I dislike the opposite.

I clearly said,

"Good thing Jaspers doesn't need to think
for his Warp to overwhelm Time/Space and everything in it"


Again,

Jaspers' WARP expands on it's own, Warping Reality on it's own.

It turns Reality into mush, because that's what Jaspers' Mind is ... insanity.


I have the proof if needed.



What are thoughts?

Not dreams.



So you have no proof, this is just your personal opinion?

Morpheus may control thoughts that take place in dreams.

But ol' Morph can not
and does not control Thoughts in the conscious world,
which have NO association with "dreams"


Now if you have proof, I'll gladly concede.
He beat the star conquerer who uses his psi power on the consious plane.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Wouldn't he need to think in order to control the warp?

Nah,

the Warp expands exponentially on its own until the Omniverse is covered.

He does however need to think in order to mold and manipulate
what's been touched by his warp.

But the Warp itself twists and turns Reality on it's own into madness.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Or else it would just be uncontrolled energy, for someone else to come and take over.

"Uncontrolled energy?"

It's his energy, his power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah,

the Warp expands exponentially on its own until the Omniverse is covered.

He does however need to think in order to mold and manipulate
what's been touched by his warp.

But the Warp itself twists and turns Reality on it's own into madness.



"Uncontrolled energy?"

It's his energy, his power.

Doesn't matter, Dream wins. He can pull beings into his wrealm from thier conciousness into his where he controls all reality. And he beat the star conquerer this way.

If Jaspers doesn't need to think then why would it matter if dreams were thoughts or thoughts were dreams anyway? And if you don't mind I'd like to see the proof of him warping reality without thinking, I'm real curious how he can control things if he doesn't think. I can understand him warping things with out having to think as if it were some kind of automatic response making the world twist and turn, but how exactly can he do specific things if he doesn't think it up?

Originally posted by Galan007
The only proof I need is that you think when you Dream.

But you don't Dream when you think.

It can't be that complicated.

Originally posted by Galan007
So to say Morpheus doesn't control thoughts to some degree is ludacris, .

I don't care what derogatory term you use.

Dream is Dream, not "Thought" or "Dream & Thoughts"

Dream controls dreams, the realm of dreams and nothing more.

You have no proof to the contrary only supposition good friend.


When you prove that I'm dreaming right now because I'm thinking as I type,
we'll proceed.

Time to burn trees, I'll be back. stoned

Originally posted by LordKaos
If Jaspers doesn't need to think then why would it matter if dreams were thoughts or thoughts were dreams anyway? And if you don't mind I'd like to see the proof of him warping reality without thinking,

I'm real curious how he can control things if he doesn't think.

I never said that.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I can understand him warping things with out having to think as if it were some kind of automatic response making the world twist and turn, but how exactly can he do specific things if he doesn't think it up?

That's what I said, actually repeated several times.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Doesn't matter, Dream wins.

Doesn't matter, Jaspers wins.

See, that easy.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He can pull beings into his wrealm from thier conciousness into his where he controls all reality. And he beat the star conquerer this way.

Like I care about who this "star conquerer" is.

It ain't Jaspers,
who's more powerful than Merlyn.

Merlyn controlled the life-force of the Omniverse. nuff said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But you don't Dream when you think.

It can't be that complicated.



I don't care what derogatory term you use.

Dream is Dream, not "Thought" or "Dream & Thoughts"

Dream controls dreams, the realm of dreams and nothing more.

You have no proof to the contrary only supposition good friend.


When you prove that I'm dreaming right now because I'm thinking as I type,
we'll proceed.

Time to burn trees, I'll be back. stoned

And you still haven't addressed the point that DREAM beat the star conqueror who uses concious psi power of a universal magnitude. Dream beat the Star conqueror in the real world by pulling him wholly, in his entirety into the dream world and then making him a trinket on a chain.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doesn't matter, Jaspers wins.

See, that easy.



Like I care about who this "star conquerer" is.

It ain't Jaspers,
who's more powerful than Merlyn.

Merlyn controlled the life-force of the Omniverse. nuff said.

Controlling the life force of the omniverse isn't the same. merlyn never tried to control MJJ's thoughts did he? Nuff said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said that.



That's what I said, actually repeated several times.

Ok so show me. I'm confused he just walks around and reality is altered by his presence and not his thoughts? So he doesn't have to activate his powers consciously? So wouldn't that make him susceptible to somebody who is the embodiment of dreams, the thoughts of the subconscious mind?

Originally posted by LordKaos
Ok so show me. I'm confused he just walks around and reality is altered by his presence and not his thoughts? So he doesn't have to activate his powers consciously? So wouldn't that make him susceptible to somebody who is the embodiment of dreams, the thoughts of the subconscious mind?

PWNED

People also day dream.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Ok so show me. I'm confused he just walks around and reality is altered by his presence and not his thoughts?

Correct.

His power flows out of him auto style.

Originally posted by LordKaos
So he doesn't have to activate his powers consciously?

Consciously or subconsciously.

It just happens so long as he lives.

Originally posted by LordKaos
So wouldn't that make him susceptible to somebody who is the embodiment of dreams, the thoughts of the subconscious mind?

Nah.

It's not a conscious thing on any level.

It's just in his powerset.

Japsers only needs to think, to shape within his Warp.

otherwise the Warp automatically disfigures Reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Correct.

His power flows out of him auto style.



Consciously or subconsciously.

It just happens so long as he lives.



Nah.

It's not a consiocus thing on any level.

It's just in his powerset.

Japsers only needs to think, to shape within his Warp.

otherwise the Warp automatically disfigures Reality.



Go read comics.

And stop wiping every nut that disagrees with me.

So what's stopping Dream from simply pulling MJJ into the dream world from the real? And what's stopping dream from simply taking over MJJ"s reality power thru his subconcious mind?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
People also day dream.

I mentioned that earlier along with lucid dreaming, meditation and trance states and even automatic bodily functions that are also governed by the SC mind.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
PWNED



Read a comic, then boast with meaning.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So what's stopping Dream from simply pulling MJJ into the dream world from the real? And what's stopping dream from simply taking over MJJ"s reality power thru his subconcious mind?

So what's stopping Jaspers from erasing Dream?

What's stopping Jaspers from replacing Dream?

What's stopping Jaspers from giving Dream a Nightmare where he scares himself to death?


What's stopping, what's stopping ... ahh please.

Yall act as though Jaspers is in defense mode here and can't strike back or first.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Read a comic, then boast with meaning.

you should do the same. becuz you haven't rebuffed any of the ways I say dream wins other than who is the star conquered and this is Marvel and merlyn this. and all that bullshit. merlyn never tried any of the attacks that are at the disposal of Dream. So I dont' give a damn how powerful merlyn is if he didn't use the attacks that dream can. now you read a comic and then come back and tell me how MJJ beats someon who can literally pull him into thier wrealm. Or just take over his powers thru his subconicousl mind.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I mentioned that earlier along with lucid dreaming, meditation and trance states and even automatic bodily functions that are also governed by the SC mind.

When you prove that I'm dreaming right now because I'm thinking as we speak,

we'll proceed.

Until then, Jaspers blinks, no more Dreams, end of story.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
you should do the same. becuz you haven't rebuffed any of the ways I say dream wins other than who is the star conquered and this is Marvel and merlyn this. and all that bullshit. merlyn never tried any of the attacks that are at the disposal of Dream. So I dont' give a damn how powerful merlyn is if he didn't use the attacks that dream can. now you read a comic and then come back and tell me how MJJ beats someon who can literally pull him into thier wrealm. Or just take over his powers thru his subconicousl mind.

nuts

Originally posted by Mr Master
So what's stopping Jaspers from erasing Dream?

What's stopping Jaspers from replacing Dream?

What's stopping Jaspers from giving Dream a Nightmare where he scares himself to death?


What's stopping, what's stopping ... ahh please.

Yall act as though Jaspers is in defense mode here and can't strike back or first.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So what's stopping Jaspers from erasing Dream?

What's stopping Jaspers from replacing Dream?

What's stopping Jaspers from giving Dream a Nightmare where he scares himself to death?


What's stopping, what's stopping ... ahh please.

Yall act as though Jaspers is in defense mode here and can't strike back or first.

Jaspers can Erase dream unless he erases all Thinking beings in creation. As long as someone thinks, then dream lives. inlcuding himself. Also when has jaspers ever been shown to be able to give a multiversal concept nightmares? He has psi powers now?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't care what derogatory term you use.

Dream is Dream, not "Thought" or "Dream & Thoughts"

Dream controls dreams, the realm of dreams and nothing more.

You have no proof to the contrary only supposition good friend.


When you prove that I'm dreaming right now because I'm thinking as I type,
we'll proceed. That was just one facet of this debate concerning MJJ's inability to kill the concept of Dream.

I have yet to delve into things like Dream's ability to pull outside beings into his realm.

Originally posted by Galan007
See that was just one facet concerning MJJ not being able to kill the concept of Dream.

I have yet to delve into things like Dream ability to pull outside beings into his realm.

i have already brought this up. To which I was met with a lil crazy smiley.

Originally posted by Galan007
That was just one facet of this debate concerning MJJ's inability to kill the concept of Dream.

I have yet to delve into things like Dream's ability to pull outside beings into his realm.

Finally a sensible debater again.

You also have yet to delve into things like Jaspers' abilities to do anything he wants.

Or is the circumstance is this fight,
only Dream can attack while Jaspers just watches to see if it affects him?


What Dream can do, what Dream can do ...

What about what Jaspers can do?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Finally a sensible debater again.

You also have yet to delve into things like Jaspers' abilities to do anything he wants.

Or is the circumstance is this fight,
only Dream can attack while Jaspers just watches to see if it affects him?


What Dream can do, what Dream can do ...

What about what Jaspers can do?

A sensible debator? he isn't bringing up anything I haven't. And you are the one who was insulting in a round about way. Then when someone gets a lil tiffy back then all of a sudden they aren't sensible? Please master, show me where I wasn't sensible. Especially since he's bringing up a point I already brought up.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Correct.

His power flows out of him auto style.



Consciously or subconsciously.

It just happens so long as he lives.



Nah.

It's not a conscious thing on any level.

It's just in his powerset.

Japsers only needs to think, to shape within his Warp.

otherwise the Warp automatically disfigures Reality.

Automatic functions fit into the realm of the subconscious. There is nothing that your body does that your mind is not responsible for whether the functions is involuntary or not, that's why telepaths can shut down powers and stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaspers develop his power later in life? If he did then there was a time when he wasn't warping reality just by being, so even if he never actively turned this "warp affect" on something in his mind set it off. It's like you are comparing his power to a healing factor which acts independently of any thought, but reality warping no matter how you color it is a psionic ability, if he controls reality by using his thoughts then it stands to reason that the automatic "warp affect" comes from there too making it a subconscious response to the world around him. You also said that the warp extends on its own turning everything to mush because he was insane, well that also implies it has to do with his thought process, and since you say he doesn't do this warp affect consciously then their is only one other way for him to do it, subconsciously making him susceptible to the lord of dreams.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Finally a sensible debater again.

You also have yet to delve into things like Jaspers' abilities to do anything he wants.

Or is the circumstance is this fight,
only Dream can attack while Jaspers just watches to see if it affects him?


What Dream can do, what Dream can do ...

What about what Jaspers can do? Meh,

Dream could pull MJJ into his realm, and transform his realm into unspace where MJJ is powerless.


This is a part of the debate I really don't care to argue though.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh,

Dream could pull MJJ into his realm, and transform his realm into unspace where MJJ is powerless.

Meh,

MJJ turns Dream into his own Nightmare, makes the boogyman kill Morpheus.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is a part of the debate I really don't care to argue though.

Just had to apply your two cents though.

Me too.

Originally posted by Mr Master
When you prove that I'm dreaming right now because I'm thinking as we speak,

we'll proceed.

Until then, Jaspers blinks, no more Dreams, end of story.

This was not to prove anything about dreaming because of thinking, it was about you saying that the two have nothing to do with each other and I gave those examples to show there are several ways for the two to overlap.

Originally posted by LordKaos
This was not to prove anything about dreaming because of thinking, it was about you saying that the two have nothing to do with each other and I gave those examples to show there are several ways for the two to overlap.

So long as we understand that conscious Thoughts are NOT dreams,

I could care less about the speculativeness being toosed around.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Meh,

MJJ turns Dream into his own Nightmare, makes the boogyman kill Morpheus. Which is why I made this statement:Originally posted by Galan007
This is a part of the debate I really don't care to argue though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So long as we understand that conscious Thoughts are NOT dreams,

I could care less about the speculativeness being toosed around. actually Dreams are more than Subconicous thoughts. Dream is also hopes, aspirations, goals. which come from the CONSIOUS mind.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh,

Dream could pull MJJ into his realm, and transform his realm into unspace where MJJ is powerless.

This is why I agree with this.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is a part of the debate I really don't care to argue though.

shifty

Originally posted by Mr Master
So long as we understand that conscious Thoughts are NOT dreams,

I could care less about the speculativeness being toosed around.

I wasn't aware that there was confusion on either of our sides about the conscious thoughts not being dreams because I certainly never said anything like that, as for speculation being tossed around I have not made any. I have asked questions to which no answers have been given, so either say you don't know or say your wrong, but stop trying to make it seem like I think a thought is dream because you've cluttered the thread with scans that make people not want to read the thread in it's entirety, because I have been very clear about dreams being thoughts and not the other way around since my initial post

Originally posted by LordKaos
I wasn't aware that there was confusion on either of our sides about the conscious thoughts not being dreams because I certainly never said anything like that, as for speculation being tossed around I have not made any. I have asked questions to which no answers have been given, so either say you don't know or say your wrong, but stop trying to make it seem like I think a thought is dream because you've cluttered the thread with scans that make people not want to read the thread in it's entirety, because I have been very clear about dreams being thoughts and not the other way around since my initial post

get used to it.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I wasn't aware that there was confusion on either of our sides about the conscious thoughts not being dreams because I certainly never said anything like that,

Just making sure it's understood.

Originally posted by LordKaos
as for speculation being tossed around I have not made any. I have asked questions to which no answers have been given,

Your points have been addressed, I'm just not going to go back and forth anymore.

It's your opinion that Dream wins because You think he can control Jaspers' sub-conscious.

Your opinion.

Jaspers' uses his Conscious Thoughts (UNRELATED to dreams) to erase Morph

and another excuse is brought up.


Please. (back and forth) when none of it can be proven on either side.

Originally posted by LordKaos
so either say you don't know or say your wrong,

I'll say what I please, thanx.

Originally posted by LordKaos
but stop trying to make it seem like I think a thought is dream because you've cluttered the thread with scans that make people not want to read the thread in it's entirety,

"I've cluttered the thread with scans?"

I posted Two scans in One post on the First page.

Are we moving on to bull shit now?

Originally posted by LordKaos
because I have been very clear about dreams being thoughts and not the other way around since my initial post

Cool.

So Jaspers uses his Conscious Thoughts and erases or replaces Morph.

I agree.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
get used to it.

This is why no respect will ever come your way.

Mind your business duke, or do you really sweat me that much?

Kinda scary.

All you do is post a disagreement to every post of mine,
or post an irrelevant snide remark directed at me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is why no respect will ever come your way.

Mind your business duke, or do you really sweat me that much?

Kinda scary.

All you do is post a disagreement to every post of mine.

And you act as if I care that you dont' respect me. I have even less for you. with your witty responses of crazy smileys when ever someone gives you apoint you cannot win. It's scary that you think I care about your respect. Such arrogance.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just making sure it's understood.



Your points have been addressed, I'm just not going to go back and forth anymore.

It's your opinion that Dream wins because You think he can control Jaspers' sub-conscious.

Your opinion.

Jaspers' uses his Conscious Thoughts (UNRELATED to dreams) to erase Morph

and another excuse is brought up.


Please. (back and forth) when none of it can be proven on either side.



I'll say what I please, thanx.



"I've cluttered the thread with scans?"

I posted Two scans in One post on the First page.

Are we moving on to bull shit now?



Cool.

So Jaspers uses his Conscious Thoughts and erases or replaces Morph.

I agree.

I didn't say anyone would win, I was only interested in the dream/thought part of the debate as I said before. Scans or not it's clutter, because addressing points with your take on something neither of us fully understands and answering questions are two different things especially when you said you had proof that he doesn't think to cause a warp affect and then fail to show it. I found that aspect of his power fascinating and was genuinely curious as to how it worked. If you don't want to go back and forth then I challenge you to merely not respond. Either way it goes I enjoyed our exchange.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I didn't say anyone would win, I was only interested in the dream/thought part of the debate as I said before. Scans or not it's clutter, because addressing points with your take on something neither of us fully understands and answering questions are two different things especially when you said you had proof that he doesn't think to cause a warp affect and then fail to show it. I found that aspect of his power fascinating and was genuinely curious as to how it worked. If you don't want to go back and forth then I challenge you to merely not respond. Either way it goes I enjoyed our exchange.

I should report you for having too much damned class.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I should report you for having too much damned class.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I didn't say anyone would win, I was only interested in the dream/thought part of the debate as I said before.

It is interesting.

I initially didn't make a choice either, I try not to in these cross-company battles that can never be proven. But I just hate it though when DC aficionaods (not you) make it seem as though Jaspers is helpless while Morph makes all the attack moves.

Dream can do this, and Dream can do that ...

And Jaspers is a bullseye target.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Scans or not it's clutter,
because addressing points with your take on something neither of us fully understands and answering questions are two different things

Ok.

It does warrant a philosophical discussion, (too much to bare right now though)
but I'm absolutely certain that thoughts are not dreams.

That's what I was pointing out and yes,
I realize you know this and are in agreement with it.

Originally posted by LordKaos
especially when you said you had proof that he doesn't think to cause a warp affect and then fail to show it.

I didn't realize you were still interested.

Forgive me, but I never make a claim without proof.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I found that aspect of his power fascinating and was genuinely curious as to how it worked.

Let me get those scans,

I have to crop em, so give me some minutes.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Either way it goes I enjoyed our exchange.

Likewise, see this style of debate I can do forever,

we're being respectful and just raising honest and interesting points.

Without the need for sarcasm and/or snide condescending remarks.
(not that you were doing that, just sayin for others that do)

Originally posted by Mr Master



Likewise, see this style of debate I can do forever,

we're being respectful and just raising honest and interesting points.

Without the need for sarcasm and/or snide condescending remarks.
(not that you were doing that, just sayin for others that do)

Yet it seems that he was trying to debate this way all along. And you often are the one to inititate a snideful remark. you would do well to foster "this style" of debate if it is what you like. Becuz from the time i have been around, it doesn't seem like the syle you like.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yet it seems that he was trying to debate this way all along. And you often are the one to inititate a snideful remark. you would do well to foster "this style" of debate if it is what you like. Becuz from the time i have been around, it doesn't seem like the syle you like.

AGAIN? (WHO is talking to you?) dontgetit


I'll reply with your own post:
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Learn how to mind your business and you wont' feel the need to police the forum.

You thought you were doing something by sticking your nose into his comment about me, and ended up looking the fool.

Now you try and turn into the forum police to save face.

Heed your own advice.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It is interesting.

I initially didn't make a choice either, I try not to in these cross-company battles that can never be proven. But I just hate it though when DC aficionaods (not you) make it seem as though Jaspers is helpless while Morph makes all the attack moves.

Dream can do this, and Dream can do that ...

And Jaspers is a bullseye target.



Ok.

It does warrant a philosophical discussion, (too much to bare right now though)
but I'm absolutely certain that thoughts are not dreams.

That's what I was pointing out and yes,
I realize you know this and are in agreement with it.



I didn't realize you were still interested.

Forgive me, but I never make a claim without proof.



Let me get those scans,

I have to crop em, so give me some minutes.



Likewise, see this style of deabte I can do forever,

we're being respectful and just raising honest and interesting points.

Without the need for sarcasm and/or snide condescending remarks.
(not that you were doing that, just sayin for others that do)

I agree, this is how these things should run in a perfect world, we should get one of those omniversal reality warpers to make it so it's always this easy and interesting . I was just about to log off but I'll wait for the scans, then it's on to the recording studio for me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
AGAIN? (WHO is talking to you?) dontgetit


I'll reply with your own post:


Heed your own advice.

I'm talking to you. becuz you are insinuating me or others in your post. If you dont' want me to respond, don't insinuate. After all, it was you, who made an ugly post towards me in this thread FIRST, and it was you who ignored the other guy when he was trying to be nice. Again, who do you think you are fooling?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yet it seems that he was trying to debate this way all along. And you often are the one to inititate a snideful remark. you would do well to foster "this style" of debate if it is what you like. Becuz from the time i have been around, it doesn't seem like the syle you like.

I will address this, in Masters defence I've "seen" him be all snide and shit before, but this was not the case at least not with me, I can honestly say the few times we have debated he has never been disrespectful with me and he only used the shit icon once

Originally posted by LordKaos
I will address this, in Masters defence I've "seen" him be all snide and shit before, but this was not the case at least not with me, I can honestly say the few times we have debated he has never been disrespectful with me and he only used the shit icon once

That my friend was not a defense. You wouldn't make a good defense attorney.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That my friend was not a defense. You wouldn't make a good defense attorney.


Good thing I majored in economics

Originally posted by LordKaos
Good thing I majored in economics HMM. If you ever are looking to move to the midwest let me know.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I agree, this is how these things should run in a perfect world, we should get one of those omniversal reality warpers to make it so it's always this easy and interesting

Indeed.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I was just about to log off but I'll wait for the scans, then it's on to the recording studio for me.

Evidently it is with his mind, but it still works independently:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ... it Bends Reality to suit itself ...

and it gets stronger all the time"

......................................................................................


Captain Britain comments on this:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8605/j2zs0.th.jpg

"Can Jasper's Mind really be so powerful?

Able to twist Everything into a perverted nightmare?"

......................................................................................


This is funny, also illustrates how awesome the cat is:

......................................................................................

When Fury was first going to kill Captain Britain,

Jaspers rescued him to toy with him:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/461/j3ej9.th.jpg





Jaspers takes CB into his helicopter Tea pot.

Even the Writer basically says, that Jaspers can make the impossible, possible.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5994/j4jq1.th.jpg

"It's (Fury) intended victim (CB) is snatched from it's grasp by a device,

which cannot exist. Not even then."





The Writer again, expresses how Jaspers can accomplish the irrational/illogical:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8412/j5bg6.th.jpg

"The Room is far too big to fit inside MJJ's flying tea pot.

CB mind's staggers for balance as Reality slips another notch"

Originally posted by Mr Master
Indeed.



Evidently it is with his mind, but it still works independently:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ... it Bends Reality to suit itself ...

and it gets stronger all the time"

......................................................................................


Captain Britain comments on this:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8605/j2zs0.th.jpg

"Can Jasper's Mind really be so powerful?

Able to twist Everything into a perverted nightmare?" What are these supposed to demonstrate?

Originally posted by Galan007
What are these supposed to demonstrate?

This has nothing to do with MJJ vs Dream right now, who cares about that.

This demonstrates that Jasper's Warp is automatic.

Jaspers only thinks to act within his warp,

but the warp itself, is on auto drive, twisting Everything into madness.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ... it Bends Reality to suit itself ...

and it gets stronger all the time"

is this now an MJJ respect thread?

Originally posted by Mr Master
This has nothing to do with MJJ vs Dream right now, who cares about that.

This demonstrates that Jasper's Warp is automatic.

Jaspers only thinks to act within his warp,

but the warp itself, is on auto drive, twisting Everything into madness.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ... it Bends Reality to suit itself ...

and it gets stronger all the time" I guess I don't see what you're trying to say.

That MJJ has nothing to do with his own mind?

Originally posted by Galan007
I guess I don't see what you're trying to say.

I don;t know how much simpler I can make it.

Originally posted by Galan007
That MJJ has nothing to do with his own mind?

This is funny somewhere I'm sure.

yawn


This demonstrates that Jasper's Warp is automatic.

Jaspers only thinks to act within his warp,

but the warp itself, is on auto drive, twisting Everything into madness.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ... it Bends Reality to suit itself ...

and it gets stronger all the time"

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is funny somewhere I'm sure.

yawn


This demonstrates that Jasper's Warp is automatic.

Jaspers only thinks to act within his warp,

but the warp itself, is on auto drive, twisting Everything into madness.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ... it Bends Reality to suit itself ...

and it gets stronger all the time" What's with the lame smilies?

They don't make me take you more seriously, this I can assure you.


Anyhow,

Jaspers is saying his mind bends reality. This means a thought process of some sort is involved in his warps.

One's mind doesn't act without some sort of catalyst initiating it to act, .

Originally posted by Galan007
What's with the lame smilies?

What's with the lame jokes trying to poke fun at what I'm sayin?

What you think, you're the only cat that gets stung by uncalled for sarcasm?

Originally posted by Galan007
They don't make me take you more seriously, this I can assure you.

Likewise on the lame sarcasm.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyhow,

No doubt.

Originally posted by Galan007
Jaspers is saying his mind bends reality.
This means a thought process of some sort is involved in his warps.

Ones mind doesn't act without some sort of catalyst initiating it to act, .

On Panel, Jaspers mind Warps Reality into madness without him even trying.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ...

it bends reality to suit itself ...



Hit me back with on panel or bio proof to the contrary,
cause real world logic isn't going to do it for me.

Just sayin.

Originally posted by Mr Master
On Panel, Jaspers mind Warps Reality into madness without him even trying.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ...

it Bends Reality to suit itself ...



Hit me back with on panel or bio proof to the contrary,
cause real world logic isn't going to do it for me.

Just sayin. What?

A beings mind doing anything is a thought process in some way/shape/form... The conscious mind doesn't just do stuff like that on it's own...


Jaspers isn't really saying his mind acts independently from himself, without him having to think about it (lol @ such a notion).... He's saying that his mind is what does the warpage.

I'm fairly certain MJJ has control over his brain.

Originally posted by Galan007
What?

Who?

Originally posted by Galan007
A beings mind doing anything is a thought process in some way/shape/form... The mind doesn't just 'do stuff'...

Jaspers does.

It warps Reality into madness on it's own.

Originally posted by Galan007
Jaspers isn't really saying his mind acts independently from himself, without him having to think about it (lol @ such a notion).... He's saying that his mind is what does the warpage.

Actually Jaspers said his Brain bends Reality to SUIT ITSELF not him.


http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2907/j1er3.th.jpg

"It's my brain you know ...

it bends reality to suit itself ...



Jaspers Only needs to think, to manipulate the Reality his mind has Warped.

(lol @ such a notion) Marvel is funny sometimes, I guess that's where the chuckle is.


AGAIN,

Hit me back with on panel or bio proof to the contrary,
cause real world logic isn't going to do it for me.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm fairly certain MJJ has control over his brain.

So am I. (wondering who said otherwise)

this is why he became the 616 Universe willingly.

But the Warp itself flows outward automatically and independently

and Warps Everything into madness automatically
but this part does depend on his state of mind (which is insanity)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jaspers does.

It warps Reality into madness on it's own. Haha..


Okie dokie.

Originally posted by Galan007
Haha..


Okie dokie.
How the hell did this conversation get to Jaspers controlling his mind? I didn't read the thread it looked to boring...
And why the hell does it matter?

Edit.

Who cares.

stoned peace and love yall.

My bad, I asked him to post the automatic warp stuff I should have asked him to PM it to me. Thanks Master I will carefully dissect each scan and I'll get back to you. Applauds all around this turned out to be a pretty decent thread IMO anyway, didn't get too ugly in here, but once again my bad especially since I brought the up "clutter" issue.

Originally posted by Mr Master
AGAIN? (WHO is talking to you?) dontgetit


I'll reply with your own post:


Heed your own advice.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I will address this, in Masters defence I've "seen" him be all snide and shit before, but this was not the case at least not with me, I can honestly say the few times we have debated he has never been disrespectful with me and he only used the shit icon once mr master doesnt flame. nver tries to provoke him all the time.