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So who will win?

Caedus

He is able to land several blows on Luke (though he ultimately loses) and can use pain to make himself stronger.
Even with the star forge, Malak was unable to defeat Revan, and Githany isn't anything special.

Yeah, Caedus is above average. Malak is assumed to be average, since he's never done anything special, and like tulak said, Githany isn't anything special either. He could take them.

First of all, Caedus (despite my protest), is NOT above average. For some earthly reason (author inconsistencies), he is very powerful. Malak is also powerful, especially if he is fueled by the star forge.

Team Two, not easily, maybe.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Even with the star forge, Malak was unable to defeat Revan
And what does this shows you?

It shows that Revan was very powerful.

Originally posted by Arcade Fire
Malak is assumed to be average, since he's never done anything special
You underestimate Malak. He is not average.

According to DSSB, Malak weilded "devastating dark side power." And this means that his knowledge and understanding of the Force was indeed exceptional.

Then Malak was also among the elite swordsmen of his age.

He could perform impressive Force moves including: Force Lightning, Chain Lightning, Force Choke, Stasis Field, Force Drain, Force Whirlwind, TK based Saber Throw and also could use Force Rage to increase his effectiveness in combat.

He also was able to control the Star Forge like no other indivdual had ever done before and became "nearly unstoppable." I don't think that he was average by any means.

And Caedus is more powerful than Revan. Meaning Caedus is way more powerful than Malak.

Caedus is more powerful than Revan? Even with the author inconsistencies, Caedus has shown pretty damn good ability with a saber, but even with his 5 year vacation, he was wtfpwned by Luke. When we talk about overall force knowledge, very few people are on Revan's level, which is undoubtedly superior to Caedus thus far.

Caedus may be able to hold his own against them with his saber for some time, but he has no where near the level of experince with the Force to defeat them in a true battle.

Hold his own? Any guy who can contend with Luke Skywalker in a duel would manhandle most Sith Lords and Jedi Masters. Malak and Githany don't have a snowball's chance in hell in a lightsaber duel. In a Force fight? You've got a point.

Team 2 wins.

The question is, is this yet another inconsistency, or is Jacen Solo that good all of a sudden? I don't recall him being particularly lightsaber savvy during the Vong War.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The question is, is this yet another inconsistency, or is Jacen Solo that good all of a sudden? I don't recall him being particularly lightsaber savvy during the Vong War.

Darth Sexy, I wouldn't label Jacen's increase of power as an 'inconsistency'. What we define as an inconsistency is, for example, a post-DE Luke Skywalker struggling to destroy a single (slightly modified) droideka, with the assistance of Mara Jade Skywalker. Why is it an inconsistency? Because it makes a tremendous contradiction to someone's previously established powers. That Jacen is suddenly very good in the Legacy of the Force series is not a surprise, since it takes place several years after the Yuuzhan Vong war. Jacen's knowledge base is -- according to Lumiya -- broader than Emperor Palpatine's own, which is deeply impressive, and application of that knowledge base would likely reflect on his talents with the Force and with a lightsaber. Nevermind the increase of power he is likely exhibiting due to his Sith training and increasing combat experience.

He was regarded as a skilled duelist in the New Jedi Order series. That, and he essentially went into what LS calls "avatar-mode" during his showdown with Onimi.

Originally posted by Gideon
Darth Sexy, I wouldn't label Jacen's increase of power as an 'inconsistency'. What we define as an inconsistency is, for example, a post-DE Luke Skywalker struggling to destroy a single (slightly modified) droideka, with the assistance of Mara Jade Skywalker. Why is it an inconsistency? Because it makes a tremendous contradiction to someone's previously established powers. That Jacen is suddenly very good in the Legacy of the Force series is not a surprise, since it takes place several years after the Yuuzhan Vong war. Jacen's knowledge base is -- according to Lumiya -- broader than Emperor Palpatine's own, which is deeply impressive, and application of that knowledge base would likely reflect on his talents with the Force and with a lightsaber. Nevermind the increase of power he is likely exhibiting due to his Sith training and increasing combat experience.

He was regarded as a skilled duelist in the New Jedi Order series. That, and he essentially went into what LS calls "avatar-mode" during his showdown with Onimi.

1. I wonder how it's possible to have a broader than Palpatine's? Does that even make sense? Was Lumiya just trying to boost his ego? It seems like a stretch. Then again he did go away for 5 years so he might have more of a variety..

2. What sith training exactly? Another ridiculous author inconsistency. As soon as Jacen accepts his sith name and all, he has these magical new powers, such as battle awareness/battle meditation. Since when do the sith automatically gain new powers?

From what I've read of Publius, Emperor Palpatine pretty much studied anything and everything concerning the Force. And since Lumiya was but a pawn to him, it is unlikely she has any idea of the true depth of his knowledge and expertise. That said, to be compared to the Emperor at all in knowledge is an impressive feat, and the variety of his knowledge is fairly impressive.



A lot of his Sith training was the disguised, morally ambiguous lessons he received from Vergere. Other Sith training is referenced but not exactly detailed in the events of the series, essentially stuff he does in "his own time". Jacen's priorities seem to be, and have always been, knowledge first, power second (a hypocritic, Jedi-esque interpretation of Sith goals).

Ok so:
1. His broad knowledge compared to Palpatine is debatable. I would go as far as call it illogical considering Palpatine had 20 years to study every aspect of the force uninterrupted (plus the other 63), while Caedus had 5.
2. This still doesn't really explain his Revan-like Battle awareness that he magically obtains after he takes his sith name.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok so:
1. His broad knowledge compared to Palpatine is debatable. I would go as far as call it illogical considering Palpatine had 20 years to study every aspect of the force uninterrupted (plus the other 63), while Caedus had 5.Uninterrupted? And here I thought he had a galaxy-spanning empire to run.

To be fair, at the time of the duel Luke is still sporting the wounds inflicted on him by Lumiya - something that Jacen takes advantage of rather well. If Luke were at full strength, the fight might have been somewhat different.

That said, breaking several bones and briefly matching Luke's speed and ferocity is a true testament to his skill, and something that few in the saga could even dream of managing. The fact that he survived at all is a mark in his favor.

Actually, this is not necessarily true. Though the Galactic Empire was an absolute dictatorship, the Emperor was not necessarily managing the bureacracy and the government on a day-to-day basis. He simply possessed the highest level of unchecked authority. It's a canon fact that by A New Hope, Sate Pestage was directing the Imperial government on a daily basis on behalf of Emperor Palpatine. We already know that he used pawns such as Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin to enforce the Empire's brutal rule (and, thereby, would relieve himself of much of the negative publicity that comes with oppression). The Dark Empire sourcebook ultimately reveals that his goal was to essentially consume the galaxy -- and other galaxies -- through the dark side of the Force, so it seems his priority was increasing his knowledge in the Force itself. Especially since he had competent lackies to handle the daily demands of the galaxy-spanning empire.

I'm sure he somehow managed to pull the time out of his ass, but to say he could study "uninterrupted" is pushing it.

How is it pushing it? In fact it seems very logical that for at least 18 of those 20 years, before the rebellion really became a problem, he studied all the ways of the force.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm sure he somehow managed to pull the time out of his ass, but to say he could study "uninterrupted" is pushing it.

I agree. There is no way for an Emperor of "a galaxy-spanning empire" to have uninterrupted leisure time. But I'd say that it covered the vast majority of his daily schedule; at least for the majority of his twenty years as galactic dictator -- though likely not the first section.

It's quite probable Palpatine was able to foster some excuses and leave the daily to-dos to the Grand Moffs and the like

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How is it pushing it? In fact it seems very logical that for at least 18 of those 20 years, before the rebellion really became a problem, he studied all the ways of the force.

Actually, the idea that he could study all the ways of the Force in less than it takes for Luke Skywalker to mature and somehow surpass knowledge of ancient Jedi and thousands of generations worth of Force trained beings and master it simply strikes me as unreasonable to the uttermost. I can concede that Sidious was a virtual Force wizard and that he had plenty of spare time to practice Force-Spank and all its variants, but the idea that he pretty much mastered the Force in its entirety above anyone else is simply non-logical.

Janus, wasn't he stated as the only one to have the dark side at his command? He achieved force mastery that was only rivaled by Luke.

In its absolute entirety? No. Absolute mastery of the Dark Side totally and completely? Yes. To a degree far beyond anyone else to that point? Definitely.

Caedus wins, he was able to compete with Luke in a saber duel. Malak and Githany don't even know each other, and I doubt it will be easy to fight Caedus 2 on 1 when one of them has a saber and the other a lightwhip.

Oh, and btw, neitehr of these three are average. They are all above average. Average would be like Sedriss or TPM Kenobi. Even as an apprentice Malak was a prodigy, Sirak was cautious of Githany, and Caedus is stronger than anyone in his era except Luke. How is that average?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Oh, and btw, neitehr of these three are average. They are all above average. Average would be like Sedriss or TPM Kenobi. Even as an apprentice Malak was a prodigy, Sirak was cautious of Githany, and Caedus is stronger than anyone in his era except Luke. How is that average?

I would hesitate to call Sedriss average. He seemed fairly powerful (though I agree, not anywhere close to the level of the 'greats'). Didn't he summon lightning from the atmosphere?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Caedus is more powerful than Revan? Even with the author inconsistencies, Caedus has shown pretty damn good ability with a saber, but even with his 5 year vacation, he was wtfpwned by Luke. When we talk about overall force knowledge, very few people are on Revan's level, which is undoubtedly superior to Caedus thus far.
After studying from almost every different force-user groups Caedus has less force knowledge than Revan? Revan just knows jedi and ancient sith techniques.

Caedus is more powerful than Revan from what we know. He was able to compete with a mad Luke. He is able to have pain make him stronger. He is constantly hidden in the force, making it harder for his enemies to sense where he is going to attack. He is able to completely dominate Arrau Sing's mind. In a duel he is able to move his lightsaber faster than the eye can see. He is able to hit Luke with force thrown objects.

Some people are saying that Caedus might lose if this turns into a force duel. How are Malak and Githany going to do this if Caedus is attacking faster than the eye can see?

Originally posted by Gideon
I would hesitate to call Sedriss average. He seemed fairly powerful (though I agree, not anywhere close to the level of the 'greats'). Didn't he summon lightning from the atmosphere?
Caedus and Malak are definitely quite a bit above Sedriss, though, and I'd even venture to guess that Githany is ahead of Sedriss as well.


I don't know about Sedress summoning lightning to the atmosphere. All I know is he killed 2 of Palpatine's officials after they betrayed Palpatine, and got Force Pushed by DE Luke when he went at him. He was Force Pushed into a tree, but the tree was really an ancient Jedi Master, who sacrificed his life to kill Sedriss.

Considering Sedriss was able to match Ood Bnar (One of the most renowned Jedi Masters of the KOTOR era), drawing up from the core of Ossus...I'd say he's well above average

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
After studying from almost every different force-user groups Caedus has less force knowledge than Revan? Revan just knows jedi and ancient sith techniques.
Revan knows Jedi and Sith techniques, a LOT of them. Caedus knows some jedi techniques and some "broad" force abilities. Yes, Revan is far superior to Caedus in overall force knowledge.


This is your opinion. His fight with luke shows that hes great with a saber, as was Revan, as the greatest in an order of tens of thousands. Dominate Sing? You mean fett's daughter. I would say what Revan did with the Rakata far exceeds anything Caedus has done other than flow walking, which is a ridiculous technique added by the pot smoking authors.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering Sedriss was able to match Ood Bnar (One of the most renowned Jedi Masters of the KOTOR era), drawing up from the core of Ossus...I'd say he's well above average
Where does it say that Ood Bnar was one of the most renowned Masters? And I'm guessing he isn't quite as strong as a tree as he is as a Jedi Master.

You're aware of several things:
1. that's the natural life cycle of Ood Bnar's species, all of whom are Force Sensitive. The force of that was able to put Exar Kun right on his ass.
2. Ood is one of the main Convocation leaders on Ossus and in Shadows and Light, his Padawan Shaela remembers him as a great loss.
3. Regardless of what he gained or loss, he was drawing up power directly from the planet's core to fight Sedriss, who was able to match him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revan knows Jedi and Sith techniques, a LOT of them. Caedus knows some jedi techniques and some "broad" force abilities. Yes, Revan is far superior to Caedus in overall force knowledge.
Where are getting that Revan knew "a LOT" of powers while Caedus knows "some". Caedus also knows sith techniques.
And if Revan knows sith and jedi powers but Caedus knows jedi, sith, and other force powers, I don't see how Revan knows more.

And its your opinion that Revan is more powerful.

How do you know Revan was the greatest duelist? He is very strong in the force but there isn't much information on his saber abilities. Revan's greatest lightsaber achievement was beating 2 terentateks. Not as impressive as competing with Luke.

I am talking about when he uses his will to completely stop Aurra Sing.

I could also say that KOTOR's force storm was a ridiculous technique introduced by pot smoking game designers, but there is no use since they are canon .

I think Caedus's abilities put him ahead of Revan (for the reasons I listed in my first post).

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Where are getting that Revan knew "a LOT" of powers while Caedus knows "some". Caedus also knows sith techniques.
And if Revan knows sith and jedi powers but Caedus knows jedi, sith, and other force powers, I don't see how Revan knows more.

I believe he is getting at the fact that Revan was the first in along time to visit malachor v which a lot of sith techniques that would become lost when the planet and those who have studied there died (like Traya,Sion and Nihilus) or m.i.a. like Revan. And it is doubtful that Caedus could know them. And combine that with the statement that bane made saying that revan's holocron had more knowledge than what was on korriban at the time. It is east to say that Revan can atleast rival cadeus in force knowledge. Though due to the fact of Caedus studying more about the force from others than the jedi and sith i would have to agree that caedus has a broader knowledge base. But Revan's sith knowledge vs. Caedus's sith knowledge i would think that goes into Revan's favor.

Yeah, Revan has more sith knowledge. But he was saying Revan has more overall force knowledge.

Of course Revan has more overall knowledge. Caedus might POSSIBLY have more force potential but Revan learned various Jedi and Sith techniques, while Caedus grew up in a time where a lot of the ancient jedi techniques were lost as a result of the Jedi Purge. Caedus learned a few techniques during his 5 year sojourn which made him really powerful, but Revan's force knowledge is pretty much superior to Caedus..

Luke found plenty of holocrons from earlier jedi. And Luke, being as powerful as he is, surely developed new techniques and rediscovered old ones. Caedus learned more than "a few" force powers in 5 years of studying all kinds of force users.

Except you have no proof that Luke ever taught all of these random techniques to all of his students, or even to some of his students. Revan spent years studying the lightside and then years studying the dark side so he has the best of both worlds.

Caedus spent years studying the lightside, the dark side, Aing-Tii Monks, Fallanassi, Witches of Dathomir, Jensaarai and Theran Listeners so he has the best of 7 worlds.

What exactly did he study in the dark side? Oh right, he doesn't have ANYONEs teachings other than Lumiya, which doesn't say much. What does he know?

And Vergere. What does he know? Things like force lightning, force choke, battle-meditation thingy, other things not directly stated.

Vergere canonically knew all of those? I don't think so. Yes Jacen knows force lightning and force choke, so? And the battle awareness, he magically obtained as soon as he named himself a sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Vergere canonically knew all of those? I don't think so.
No, I am saying he learned how to be a sith from Vergere also.

You asked what he knows, so I told you some of the darkside powers he has shown.

And I just remembered, Jacen can cut people off from the force, don't know if that is sith or ancient jedi or what, but it was probably taught to him by Vergere.

I don't know what it is. Jacen seems to be popping techniques out of his ass..

Why is the lotf author overhyping jacen and further damaging the SW trilogy?

Who knows but he is getting random techniques out of his ass.

darth gaydus lose this one, malak wins.

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I really think Caedus is outmatched here. Githany is armed with a lightwhip, knows force lightning, and it might traumatize Caedus with visions or Lumiya. Adding in Malak with this weapon advantage is overkill. Caedus gets stomped

Old one, but I'll chip in anyway: Githany's reasonably good, but I don't think she's enough to make up the gap between Caedus and Malak.

I'd say Caedus wins fairly solidly.

Caedus roflstomps them both like he did to Katarn and co.