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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aW2N46vf4Q&mode=related&search=

what ive been tryin to say to people for ages

Right now, consciously and subconsciously, increasingly vast numbers of people are instinctively feeling that something's not right in this world. They might not be able to articulate in detail what it is. They just have that faint but nagging feeling that something's not right about what's going on in the world. And the spark that will set that afire is the INFORMATION to explain what IS going on. And when people have access to that INFORMATION -- suddenly, what seemed to be a bewildering, complex, "what's-going-on?" kind of world, becomes perfectly understandable. To understand what is happening, you have to understand what those in power are trying to achieve. If you don't know that, then you have a co-ordinate missing that is fundamental to understanding. If you suffer from terminal naivity and believe that governments are there to somehow serve the people and do what's right for the country, then you'll look around at what's happening in the world and say things like: "this government is just stupid, they're incompetent, what they're doing is crazy". But when you realise that the goal is NOT to serve the people or the country, it is to serve a continuing agenda for global centralization of power and control, then you realise that what's happening in the world is actually GENIUS and not stupidity - because the outcome is exactly what it's meant to achieve.

Originally posted by Deano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aW2N46vf4Q&mode=related&search=

what ive been tryin to say to people for ages

Right now, consciously and subconsciously, increasingly vast numbers of people are instinctively feeling that something's not right in this world. They might not be able to articulate in detail what it is. They just have that faint but nagging feeling that something's not right about what's going on in the world. And the spark that will set that afire is the INFORMATION to explain what IS going on. And when people have access to that INFORMATION -- suddenly, what seemed to be a bewildering, complex, "what's-going-on?" kind of world, becomes perfectly understandable. To understand what is happening, you have to understand what those in power are trying to achieve. If you don't know that, then you have a co-ordinate missing that is fundamental to understanding. If you suffer from terminal naivity and believe that governments are there to somehow serve the people and do what's right for the country, then you'll look around at what's happening in the world and say things like: "this government is just stupid, they're incompetent, what they're doing is crazy". But when you realise that the goal is NOT to serve the people or the country, it is to serve a continuing agenda for global centralization of power and control, then you realise that what's happening in the world is actually GENIUS and not stupidity - because the outcome is exactly what it's meant to achieve.

Is this in the wrong forum?

Originally posted by Deano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aW2N46vf4Q&mode=related&search=

what ive been tryin to say to people for ages

Right now, consciously and subconsciously, increasingly vast numbers of people are instinctively feeling that something's not right in this world. They might not be able to articulate in detail what it is. They just have that faint but nagging feeling that something's not right about what's going on in the world. And the spark that will set that afire is the INFORMATION to explain what IS going on. And when people have access to that INFORMATION -- suddenly, what seemed to be a bewildering, complex, "what's-going-on?" kind of world, becomes perfectly understandable. To understand what is happening, you have to understand what those in power are trying to achieve. If you don't know that, then you have a co-ordinate missing that is fundamental to understanding. If you suffer from terminal naivity and believe that governments are there to somehow serve the people and do what's right for the country, then you'll look around at what's happening in the world and say things like: "this government is just stupid, they're incompetent, what they're doing is crazy". But when you realise that the goal is NOT to serve the people or the country, it is to serve a continuing agenda for global centralization of power and control, then you realise that what's happening in the world is actually GENIUS and not stupidity - because the outcome is exactly what it's meant to achieve.



You and your conspiracies.




People high in power are almost always corrupt and will do nothing but try to attain more power. They will commit actions at the expense of numerous unnamed people without care.



This is nothing new

Originally posted by Deano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aW2N46vf4Q&mode=related&search=

what ive been tryin to say to people for ages

Right now, consciously and subconsciously, increasingly vast numbers of people are instinctively feeling that something's not right in this world. They might not be able to articulate in detail what it is. They just have that faint but nagging feeling that something's not right about what's going on in the world. And the spark that will set that afire is the INFORMATION to explain what IS going on. And when people have access to that INFORMATION -- suddenly, what seemed to be a bewildering, complex, "what's-going-on?" kind of world, becomes perfectly understandable. To understand what is happening, you have to understand what those in power are trying to achieve. If you don't know that, then you have a co-ordinate missing that is fundamental to understanding. If you suffer from terminal naivity and believe that governments are there to somehow serve the people and do what's right for the country, then you'll look around at what's happening in the world and say things like: "this government is just stupid, they're incompetent, what they're doing is crazy". But when you realise that the goal is NOT to serve the people or the country, it is to serve a continuing agenda for global centralization of power and control, then you realise that what's happening in the world is actually GENIUS and not stupidity - because the outcome is exactly what it's meant to achieve. N...no.

They want money.

The video doesn't have much to do with governments, just the mythological origins of Christianity, which are beat into the ground on numerous threads in this forum.

Some of the myth-connections are either false or selectively interpreted to help debunk Christianity. Many are true, however, and once you realize that there's too many to discount it becomes irrelevant if one or two savior myths don't coincide closely enough to debunk it alone.

http://www.lightworksav.com/
Lightworks audio/video sells videos that are much more detailed than the youtube video he posted (also more credible). This one in particular.

Cool video, I already knew most of those and I believe that those almost identical stories (to Christ) of all those cultures were actually predicting Jesus.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Cool video, I already knew most of those and I believe that those almost identical stories (to Christ) of all those cultures were actually predicting Jesus.

Wait wait. You're aware of all of that and still think Christianity is valid? You know most of those predated Jesus by centuries, right? And that there are legit reasons for the beliefs coming about that have nothing to do with a spiritual "prediction" but are tied to the cycles of the seasons and naturally occuring events. And that there's no more factually justification for Christianity than any of these others. Right?

That's some impressively irrational justification, bud.

Originally posted by Deano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aW2N46vf4Q&mode=related&search=

what ive been tryin to say to people for ages

Right now, consciously and subconsciously, increasingly vast numbers of people are instinctively feeling that something's not right in this world. They might not be able to articulate in detail what it is. They just have that faint but nagging feeling that something's not right about what's going on in the world. And the spark that will set that afire is the INFORMATION to explain what IS going on. And when people have access to that INFORMATION -- suddenly, what seemed to be a bewildering, complex, "what's-going-on?" kind of world, becomes perfectly understandable. To understand what is happening, you have to understand what those in power are trying to achieve. If you don't know that, then you have a co-ordinate missing that is fundamental to understanding. If you suffer from terminal naivity and believe that governments are there to somehow serve the people and do what's right for the country, then you'll look around at what's happening in the world and say things like: "this government is just stupid, they're incompetent, what they're doing is crazy". But when you realise that the goal is NOT to serve the people or the country, it is to serve a continuing agenda for global centralization of power and control, then you realise that what's happening in the world is actually GENIUS and not stupidity - because the outcome is exactly what it's meant to achieve.
Get the **** out of my forum.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Get the **** out of my forum.

...he says on a privately owned, public forum.

How does the fact Christianity borrowed ideas from older religions disprove it?

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
How does the fact Christianity borrowed ideas from older religions disprove it?

Because it proves that it is nothing more then fiction.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Wait wait. You're aware of all of that and still think Christianity is valid? You know most of those predated Jesus by centuries, right? And that there are legit reasons for the beliefs coming about that have nothing to do with a spiritual "prediction" but are tied to the cycles of the seasons and naturally occuring events. And that there's no more factually justification for Christianity than any of these others. Right?

That's some impressively irrational justification, bud.

You know, you could've saved yourself a lot of typing by just saying that religion sucks.

Originally posted by grey fox
Because it proves that it is nothing more then fiction.

No it doesn't. And why did Christianity "borrow" from anceint polytheistic religions? Perhaps all those were counting down to Jesus.

ok religion sucks

all religions has a history of borrowing from other religion, christianity as well, ................like son/child of a god, virgin birth, rose from the dead ...............

Full video http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

I already knew about the pagan stories about the sun, the stars, the moon and all that. To me, it just made sense.

NOW I HAVE PROOF!

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...he says on a privately owned, public forum.

Keep in mind that you're talking to somebody who is ZEN now..

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
How does the fact Christianity borrowed ideas from older religions disprove it?

If someone claims to have seen anthropomorphic bears, snuck into their house and ate their porrage...

...then you find a copy of Goldilocks and the Three Bears in their bookself, are you really going to believe their story, regardless of how sincere they sound?

Same principle. Ah, but the storybook was a prediction of the true event that followed! Right.



Originally posted by Quiero Mota
You know, you could've saved yourself a lot of typing by just saying that religion sucks.

Ascribing moral characteristics to abstract ideas like religion shifts the blame. It's usually people that are stupid, not religions.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
No it doesn't. And why did Christianity "borrow" from anceint polytheistic religions? Perhaps all those were counting down to Jesus.



{see Goldilocks story first}

...this is where I find it difficult to debate with someone, not because there aren't logical answers to your questions, but because I realize that it's fruitless to argue with someone who is so entrenched in a particular belief that they'll do whatever is necessary to feel like they're justified. Even if that includes shunting aside their reason for rationalizations that can only be described as insanely improbable.

No. It proves the people who made the religion weren't idiots.



Not every aspect of Christianity mirrors these older religion's beliefs. Several of the core ideals the Church teaches are radically different. Plus there's actual evidence there was a Jesus Christ unlike most of the other gods listed in the video.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Not every aspect of Christianity mirrors these older religion's beliefs. Several of the core ideals the Church teaches are radically different. Plus there's actual evidence there was a Jesus Christ unlike most of the other gods listed in the video.

Actually, most do. Old and New Testament alike. And it includes central tenets like the resurrection and crucifixtion. I frequently mention books and videos that go into more detail if you have any doubts (one of them is linked in an earlier post of mine). The works of mythologist Joseph Campbell are also an excellent starting point ("The Hero With a Thousand Faces" being his principle work). He is able to boil the "Savior Myth" down to its basic elements and show how the story and details cross cultures throughout the world.

Beyond that, sure, Jesus likely existed historically. I don't think anyone's questioning that (I'm certainly not). But not as the Gospels depict him (all written decades after his life, and none by firsthand account). In an age without the printing press, where stories were copied and recopied dozens of times a year to respread throughout the land, and most were verbal stories, and in an area of the world that would have been very familiar with these other myths, to say that the truth was kept intact is an enormous stretch of the imagination.

And to further suggest that the Bible as we currnetly know it is indeed the Word of God is even more preposterous, since it was cobbled together over centuries before and after Christianity, and even the oldest Hebrew sections of the Old Testament have predecessors laced throughout pagan mythology (do a google search for "Babylonian Job", for example).

As early as 150 AD, a scholar named Justin Martyr commented extensively on how Christianity was simply rehashed versions of the same myths that were circulating the area at the time. The only difference is, Christianity got the endorsement of a Roman Emperor at a convenient point in history...that's why we're having this conversation today about Jesus instead of, say, Dionysius or any number of other gods.

Is it possible that these were all Satanic imitators to lure us away from the truth? Er...hopefully I don't need to answer that. And is it possible that they are spiritual "predictions" of Christ's coming. I suppose, if you want to believe that. But what is (by far) the likliest scenario? That they are borrowed stories from earlier traditions and cultures. To believe anything else seems silly.

...

Argue against me if you need to in order to justify your faith. I'd rather not make a pages-long list of the various myths associated with the Savior Myth, but once you become familiar with all of them it becomes impossible to rationalize them away, unless you're willing to set aside all reason.

So was crucifying people like a habby of everyone in the past?

I thought it was a Roman method of execution and punishment.



Where is the documentation the Gospels were not written by any of the Disciples?



To say the Bible, a man-made work, is the Word of God is itself faulty. Man can not hope to properly conceive and describe something so vastly above himself. That's why certain things are mentioned such as God "reprenting". Repent is a human concept.



Irony.



Except for the fact we know Jesus existed. We know the Disciples existed. So, there's a grain of truth to Jesus as opposed to completely fictional gods of the older religions.



If these ideas have been known for so long, I'm sue more ecucated Christians than myself have come across this. You are presenting a single side to the story; the side intending to disprove Christianity as a mere immitation of several previous ideas. What of the scholars of the Faith? Where is their side?

I know many Catholics who use as much science and logic as they use belief and religion.

big difference of being the existence of a man called jesus and that of being a son of a god, ressurection and all that follows, and as of god like charecthers Odin actually existed, and the tales of him evolved into being tales of him being the head god in the Norse mytholoogy

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
So was crucifying people like a habby of everyone in the past?

I thought it was a Roman method of execution and punishment.

Yes, but it's certainly not where it originated. The Egyptian god Horus was crucified millenia before Christianity. The Romans didn't invent crucifixtion.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Where is the documentation the Gospels were not written by any of the Disciples?

Check any source that dates the books of the Bible, even Christian ones. The earliest was written around 90AD, some 60 years after the death of Jesus (give or take maybe a decade, due to the amorphous nature of historical records).

Looking at Jesus himself, there are only a few references from non-Christian sources that he even existed, and they say nothing about his life and teachings. Everything is taken from Paul and the Gospels, which I have already extensively attacked.

The burden of historical accuracy lies with Christians who believe in a person who walked on water (among other things), not those who claim that the world is "normal". And so far I've offered books, videos, ancient scholars, dates and records...I have yet to see anything to the contrary except arguments like "Well, but maybe..."

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
To say the Bible, a man-made work, is the Word of God is itself faulty. Man can not hope to properly conceive and describe something so vastly above himself. That's why certain things are mentioned such as God "reprenting". Repent is a human concept.

God is a man-made work, ever since we tried to find reasons for forces of nature that had no explanation in the ancient world. How is it so hard to take it that extra step?

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Irony.

Obviously, but it doesn't refute my point, nor does it invalidate Justin Martyr's claims.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Except for the fact we know Jesus existed. We know the Disciples existed. So, there's a grain of truth to Jesus as opposed to completely fictional gods of the older religions.

False. Other saviors had 12 followers as well. It dates back to the 12 signs of the zodiac which "followed" the sun (son) in it's yearly path around the heavens. And once again, no historical records of them exist outside the gospels, which are all borrowed from earlier myths.

You're getting dangerously close to the "Why is the Bible true? Because the Bible tells me so." loop that many fall into....unless you produce something else.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
If these ideas have been known for so long, I'm sue more ecucated Christians than myself have come across this. You are presenting a single side to the story; the side intending to disprove Christianity as a mere immitation of several previous ideas. What of the scholars of the Faith? Where is their side?

I know many Catholics who use as much science and logic as they use belief and religion.

Excellent points, and valid questions, actually.

One, I'm a former devout Catholic. I made sure I found the opposing arguments. They are severely lacking, and at best pick and choose stories to debunk while ignoring others. I talk about it more in depth over in the Mystery Religions thread.

Second, one can go through a lifetime of Christian belief, even into the priesthood, and never encounter these things. Why? Christians know what they believe, and they bolster that by reading Christian sources and authors. They may have heard of this, but no one in their life presses the issue and so they're never asked to truly question their beliefs based on these findings.

Third, I'm not the only one. Religion sections in any bookstore are littered with this stuff. Blame a severe lack of literary knowledge outside Christianity and tunnel-vision from the faithful as the main culprits, as well as communities that don't foster the need for education on this level. No one gets this in school, and how many devout religious people will go out of their way to find this stuff in between the rest of their lives? Not many, though they exist (like me).

Lastly, asking why there aren't others (there are) isn't a refutation of any of my points. It's trying to use faulty logic to undermine my reasons for debunking Christianity, and is basically just ignoring the question.

Okie dokie.



What extra step? You mean thinking of God and then writing what we think God says? That seems unfair.



I know. I just found it amusing.



So there was no Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke and so-forth?



I'm not trying to refute your points.

Yes you are.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
...So there was no Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke and so-forth?...

Just think about it. If Jesus was in his 30s when he died, his followers where most likely in their 20s or 30s. If the oldest book of the NT dates to 90 CE (AD), that would mean that the youngest follower of Jesus was writing when he was (90-30) + 20 = 80. Now no one had glasses or medical treatment back then, so I doubt that a 80 year old man would have be able to write these books.

I'm asking him questions, not debating. Least I don't think I am. I'm trying to get information and validate that information.

I've agreed with most of his points.



Good point.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
I'm asking him questions, not debating. Least I don't think I am. I'm trying to get information and validate that information.

I've agreed with most of his points.

Don't lie lol

Digi, did it look like I was debating with you? All I've done is ask questions. I didn't realize that was the basis for intellectual argument.

Shit man calm down. I'm joking because I'm bored. Bye.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Digi, did it look like I was debating with you? All I've done is ask questions. I didn't realize that was the basis for intellectual argument.

Argument, no. This has been a rather pleasant civil discussion. But a debate, sure, since you've taken an opposite stance on quite a few points, or at least offered other possible explanations. But I feel like it's actually been more productive than most on this forum...as long as you agree that everything I say is true ( ).

lol I agree with reason and evidence.

I think that's the best thing to do.

But that's one thing I detest about history. History is written by the victors And people will recount what happened very differently.

very true

jesus is a sun symbol. that is all.
wake up and grow up.

Originally posted by Deano
jesus is a sun symbol. that is all.
wake up and grow up. Ironic.

I woke up 9 hourse ago though. And to the best of my knowledge, I've grown up to some degree.

Bill Hicks FTW

Originally posted by Deano
jesus is a sun symbol. that is all.
wake up and grow up. The Sun of Righteous mentioned in the OT.

The jab at the Holy Father was unneeded.

Faith does not mean stupidity and leave yourself open to be killed last I checked.

Here's another jab at some Holy Father: He sucks.

He's got better sheos than you.

Sheos? I got an image of shoes made out of Oreos.

droolio

What the **** is a sheo?

I suppose he meant sheol which again only means death, nothing more.