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I'm not saying he'd win in battle as he has some weaknesses the Surfer could exploit. I just think he has greater overall power.

And you're welcome to have that opinion.

The majority of fans that regularly post, here, or on several other boards will disagree with you.

But that makes you no less welcome to have that opinion.

Said opinion doesn't really deserve it's own thread, however....

I fail to see how he has greater power overall.

Originally posted by Soljer
And you're welcome to have that opinion.

The majority of fans that regularly post, here, or on several other boards will disagree with you.

But that makes you no less welcome to have that opinion.

Said opinion doesn't really deserve it's own thread, however....

Let's think about this, what is the Surfers top feat?

What is Supermans. Power has a specific scientific meaning. I would ask you has the Surfer ever displayed the physical ability to move something the size of the Solar system like Maggeddon?

what i don't like about superman's powers is that they're inconsistent. on moment he's flying in space in a space suit, next thing you know he's throwinf somebody into the sun with a battle torn costume...

Originally posted by super pr*xy
what i don't like about superman's powers is that they're inconsistent. on moment he's flying in space in a space suit, next thing you know he's throwinf somebody into the sun with a battle torn costume...

Mongul taught him how to survive in space. He has increased in power a great deal since then.

Originally posted by super pr*xy
what i don't like about superman's powers is that they're inconsistent. on moment he's flying in space in a space suit, next thing you know he's throwinf somebody into the sun with a battle torn costume...

Only if you're reading a comic published in 2005 right after reading a comic published in 1992.

Superman hasn't used a spacesuit in years.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Let's think about this, what is the Surfers top feat?

What is Supermans. Power has a specific scientific meaning. I would ask you has the Surfer ever displayed the physical ability to move something the size of the Solar system like Maggeddon?

Superman didn't lift or push maggeddon. He turned the milliwheels. There is no indication of how hard such a feat would be besides "HARD."

Has Superman ever demonstrated enough power to 'accidently' create a blackhole?

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman didn't lift or push maggeddon. He turned the milliwheels. There is no indication of how hard such a feat would be besides "HARD."

Has Superman ever demonstrated enough power to 'accidently' create a blackhole?

Yes he turned the Millwheels of something the size of the solar system. That didn't look a very big blackhole. Which a know sounds silly when talking about infinite mass but..... It's comics and size is everything. Size of the Solar System>small black hole.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Yes he turned the Millwheels of something the size of the solar system. That didn't look a very big blackhole. Which a know sounds silly when talking about infinite mass but..... It's comics and size is everything. Size of the Solar System>small black hole.

But there is no indication of how hard it is to turn the milliwheels.

. You're totally ignoring that point, and just GUESSING at it.

I can hit the accelerator in my car, but that doesn't mean I could lift the car over my head, now does it? .

Originally posted by Soljer
But there is no indication of how hard it is to turn the milliwheels.

. You're totally ignoring that point, and just GUESSING at it.

I can hit the accelerator in my car, but that doesn't mean I could lift the car over my head, now does it? . not really we know it was a geared system and given the size of the object this geared system was moving we must assume the friction alone was infinite and incalculable. This is before we get past the concept that Superman was overcoming Friction and Inertia to move said Mill wheels.

No, obviously the friction was not infinite.

.

Originally posted by Soljer
No, obviously the friction was not infinite.

.

Actually in the same way that all calculations become infinite when dealing with a singularity like a black hole. So would the calculations for friction of a geared system large enough to move something the size of a solar system.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Actually in the same way that all calculations become infinite when dealing with a singularity like a black hole. So would the calculations for friction of a geared system large enough to move something the size of a solar system.

No....they...really wouldn't.

I'm unsure of how to explain this. The calculations with a black hole HAVE a singularity, a 'limit,' an asymptote.

The calculations for friction are not similarly inclined.

Originally posted by Soljer
No....they...really wouldn't.

I'm unsure of how to explain this. The calculations with a black hole HAVE a singularity, a 'limit,' an asymptote.

The calculations for friction are not similarly inclined.

Actually no, the calculations for a Singualarity are infinite in terms of it's density you can have a single atom in mass but infinite density. That's the principle of a singularity. It means calculations on black holes power usage is next to impossible. As for Friction the Mass of a solid object the size of the Solar System would to all intensive purposes be infinite. It would actually bow space time around it. Whilst not infinitely dense itself it's mass would actually be pulling against the Universes very fabric. This would mean that it would be pulling against the infinite and warping space. To move such an object with a geared system would require an equal level of force. The friction like every other calculation would be infinite.

...No, in fact, it wouldn't.

I fail to see what's so hard to understand here.

A solar system has a measurable mass. There are measurable constants in the problem. Everything CAN be worked through.

As far as human principles are concerned, the things may be 'effectively' infinite, but that does NOT make them absolutely so.

A singularity, on the other hand, IS absolutely infinite, rather than simply effectively so. .

Originally posted by Soljer
...No, in fact, it wouldn't.

I fail to see what's so hard to understand here.

A solar system has a measurable mass. There are measurable constants in the problem. Everything CAN be worked through.

As far as human principles are concerned, the things may be 'effectively' infinite, but that does NOT make them absolutely so.

A singularity, on the other hand, IS absolutely infinite, rather than simply effectively so. .


A singularity is only infinite in terms of density and not mass.
The planets in a solar system have measurable mass, however a solid object the size of a solar sytem whilst also having measurable mass would be so massive that like a black hole it would warp space. Now where a blackhole has infinite density the Mageddon device would not, however it would be so massive that it would Warp Space/time itself to an infinite degree. The gravity well it would be pulling against would indeed be infinite. Therefore to move it would require infinite power. Because you would be pulling against the Mass of the Universe itself.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Yes he turned the Millwheels of something the size of the solar system. That didn't look a very big blackhole. Which a know sounds silly when talking about infinite mass but..... It's comics and size is everything. Size of the Solar System>small black hole.
You do realize that it was specifically stated that it was a LARGE black hole, not a small one right?

Originally posted by Zebedee
Now where a blackhole has infinite density the Mageddon device would not, however it would be so massive that it would Warp Space/time itself to an infinite degree.



You're making this supposition.

Prove it. .

Originally posted by Soljer
You're making this supposition.

Prove it. .

I do not need to, we know that giant stars actually can make black holes, objects of infinite density orbit them as they have greater mass. At the same time said black hole will constantly be pulling the very star stuff from the star. We also know that heat can and does move against the gravity gradiant of a black hole down a thermal gradient back into cold space. We do know larger objects than the than the Solar system exist. However these are gaseous and have a far lower density than a solid like Mageddon.

Originally posted by Zebedee
I do not need to, we know that giant stars actually can make black holes, objects of infinite density orbit them as they have greater mass. At the same time said black hole will constantly be pulling the very star stuff from the star. We also know that heat can and does move against the gravity gradiant of a black hole down a thermal gradient back into cold space. We do know larger objects than the than the Solar system exist. However these are gaseous and have a far lower density than a solid like Mageddon.



Some of the things you're asserting aren't known, however.

You're claiming that an object of unknown density, unknown mass, and unknown (but comparable to Solar System) volume will certainly, and absolutely warp space time to an infinite degree.

There is no evidence provided in any comic or scientific paper that I have read to support this conclusion, hence I appeal to the one that made the claim to begin with; prove it.

Originally posted by Soljer
Some of the things you're asserting aren't known, however.

You're claiming that an object of unknown density, unknown mass, and unknown (but comparable to Solar System) volume will certainly, and absolutely warp space time to an infinite degree.

There is no evidence provided in any comic or scientific paper that I have read to support this conclusion, hence I appeal to the one that made the claim to begin with; prove it.

I'm claiming any solid object the size of a solar system would yes. Unless you claim Mageddon was not a solid object. It seemed solid when anyone touched it. No scientific paper has been written on this? I would doubt they have as the only objects Solar system size are gaseous. It was certainly a solid object when Superman was trapped inside it.

I never said that it didn't appear solid.

I said of unknown density, unknown mass, and unknown volume. All of which are true, unless your comic had a page that mine did not.

So, I beseech you one last time, and sincerely hope to see an actual response this time, rather than an evasive one; prove your original conclusion, based on the premises we know to be true.

Originally posted by Soljer
I never said that it didn't appear solid.

I said of unknown density, unknown mass, and unknown volume. All of which are true, unless your comic had a page that mine did not.

So, I beseech you one last time, and sincerely hope to see an actual response this time, rather than an evasive one; prove your original conclusion, based on the premises we know to be true.

It's Volume is not unknown it's that of the Solar system. Superman was able to push against it so it's density as not to break under the power of superman must be extremely high. Objects with a high density have a high mass. Therefore giant volume + high density +high mass = warped space through giant gravity well.

Originally posted by Zebedee
It's Volume is not unknown it's that of the Solar system. Superman was able to push against it so it's density as not to break under the power of superman must be extremely high. Objects with a high density have a high mass. Therefore giant colume + high density +high mass = warped space through giant gravity well.





It's volume IS unknown. It is simply known to be large - 'that of a solar system' is not an absolute definition, but a range. There are larger and smaller solar systems.

Also; the fact that someone was able to push against it is not indicative of it's density. If density were required for durability in comics, Superman would have to weigh several billion tons.

Again, I ask you, prove your original conclusion with the premises we know to be true. This will be the last time I make this request. If it remains unfulfilled, well, you'll simply be arguing an unsubstantiated claim.

In which case, the giant purple bunny rabbit in the sky will see unfavorably upon you, and upon Superman, assuring that Superman's power output will never be greater than that of the Silver Surfer's. Prove it? I need not - it seems unsubstantiated claims are the special of the day.

Originally posted by Soljer
It's volume IS unknown. It is simply known to be large - 'that of a solar system' is not an absolute definition, but a range. There are larger and smaller solar systems.



The size of "the" Solar System silly

Originally posted by Soljer
Also; the fact that someone was able to push against it is not indicative of it's density. If density were required for durability in comics, Superman would have to weigh several billion tons.



No because Supermans power durability comes from a forcefield. The fact the chains were broken with effort indicates that they were normal solids albeit very strong and therefore dense and therefore massive.

Originally posted by Soljer


Again, I ask you, prove your original conclusion with the premises we know to be true. This will be the last time I make this request. If it remains unfulfilled, well, you'll simply be arguing an unsubstantiated claim.



Done earlier

Originally posted by Zebedee
It's Volume is not unknown it's that of the Solar system. Superman was able to push against it so it's density as not to break under the power of superman must be extremely high. Objects with a high density have a high mass. Therefore giant volume + high density +high mass = warped space through giant gravity well.





Originally posted by Soljer


In which case, the giant purple bunny rabbit in the sky will see unfavorably upon you, and upon Superman, assuring that Superman's power output will never be greater than that of the Silver Surfer's. Prove it? I need not - it seems unsubstantiated claims are the special of the day.

Not unsubstantiated, merely ones you choose not to admit have a great deal of evidence to support.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Zebedee


Concession submitted.



As they say;

Kthxbai.

You've still proven absolutely nothing, and have not offered up a shred of evidence as to Superman exhibiting an 'infinite' level of strength.

Keep using it if you like, but you're using a conclusion created via an invalid, illogical, and completely incorrect argument.

.

Originally posted by Soljer
As they say;

Kthxbai.

You've still proven absolutely nothing, and have not offered up a shred of evidence as to Superman exhibiting an 'infinite' level of strength.

Keep using it if you like, but you're using a conclusion created via an invalid, illogical, and completely incorrect argument.

.

Yup you have yet to show where it is illogical that a solid the size of our solar system with a density great enough to withstand Superman pushing against it would not have a mass large enough to create a gravity well that would warp space.

Thanks for the input.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Zebedee


Concession submitted.

Burden of proof.

You claim it, you prove it. Adios.

Originally posted by Soljer
Burden of proof.

You claim it, you prove it. Adios.

Which I backed up.

I'll take that as no you can't.

Auvoir.

Dude, the Silver Surfer has the power cosmic, he could probably just take away Superman's powers or KO him with one hit. To date, I don't think the Silver Surfer has ever truly been hurt. Hell, the Hulk punched him at full power in one of the earlier comics & it didn't do shit to him.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Which I backed up.

I'll take that as no you can't.

Auvoir.



No, you may take that as "I need not."

You still haven't shown a shred of evidence in your favor. I await.

Originally posted by Zebedee
I'm not saying he'd win in battle as he has some weaknesses the Surfer could exploit. I just think he has greater overall power.

Originally posted by Mirai Gohan
Dude, the Silver Surfer has the power cosmic, he could probably just take away Superman's powers


Given the initial post I can see comprehension skills might require work.

Originally posted by Mirai Gohan
I don't think the Silver Surfer has ever truly been hurt

Really, well i've seen numerous people hurt him from Truamas dad to Ganymede and of course the Black Panther.

The Black Panther? What kind of crack are you smoking?

Everything with mass has a gravity well that warps space (at least to some degree). This is what Einstein was saying with the theory of relativity.

Oh and BTW there is only one solar system, because the word "solar" refers to the sun's official name, Sol. The rest are properly called star systems.

Silver Surfer will destroy Supes. he would knock of his head with a flick of his finger. SS would never get tagged by the likes of Doomsday. The only reason SS got beat by Black Panther is beacause he had his Power Cosmic stripped from him, and he has the fighting skills of Supes, so obviously BP would beat him up

Superman is overall more powerful than Surfer physically, while Surfer has the edge in versatility.

Two every different types of characters with their own approach to solving their problems.

I agree with the thread maker, supes is certainly more powerful then SS. If we where to combine all fo supes feats (PC supes, Supes 1m, Supes all-stars) and apply these powers to supes as a single character(or IMO the way he should be written) then he stomps over SS incredibly easily. SS would go down no matter what.

Originally posted by Sarutobi700
Silver Surfer will destroy Supes. he would knock of his head with a flick of his finger. SS would never get tagged by the likes of Doomsday. The only reason SS got beat by Black Panther is beacause he had his Power Cosmic stripped from him, and he has the fighting skills of Supes, so obviously BP would beat him up
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

*whew*

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Everything with mass has a gravity well that warps space (at least to some degree). This is what Einstein was saying with the theory of relativity.

Oh and BTW there is only one solar system, because the word "solar" refers to the sun's official name, Sol. The rest are properly called star systems.


Thank you.


Originally posted by Avlon
Superman is overall more powerful than Surfer physically, while Surfer has the edge in versatility.

Two every different types of characters with their own approach to solving their problems.


Thank you


Originally posted by The Great Galen
I agree with the thread maker, supes is certainly more powerful then SS. If we where to combine all fo supes feats (PC supes, Supes 1m, Supes all-stars) and apply these powers to supes as a single character(or IMO the way he should be written) then he stomps over SS incredibly easily. SS would go down no matter what.


Thank you

A lot of people give Surfer the nod over Superman due to his versatility and that's understandable, but I also feel is Supes is outright more powerful. And his versatility is also to a degree most don't give him credit for. His combat prowess is vastly over Surfers.

Most of us are agreed except Soljer then.

Avlon and Juntai hardly count, and the only other person that really agreed was talking about taking into account feats performed by Superman 1M, and Superman Prime, for christ's sake. .

Not to mention, you created this thread on a board titled 'Superman.'

.

Originally posted by Soljer
Avlon and Juntai hardly count, and the only other person that really agreed was talking about taking into account feats performed by Superman 1M, and Superman Prime, for christ's sake. .

Not to mention, you created this thread on a board titled 'Superman.'

.

Now, now. You must have missed Endless Mikes Physics bit.

Why pray tell should such erstwhile KMCers as Juntai and Avlon not count?

Originally posted by Zebedee
Now, now. You must have missed Endless Mikes Physics bit.

Why pray tell should such erstwhile KMCers as Juntai and Avlon not count?

The only post mike made in this thread stated neither that he believed Superman was more powerful, nor that he was less.

.

Originally posted by Soljer
The only post mike made in this thread stated neither that he believed Superman was more powerful, nor that he was less.

.

No that's true, it was supporting my physics bit.



You must have missed the other posters who agreed with me.

Why don't Avlon and Juntai count? I think they are excellent and well respected posters.

Well all those characters are considered superman afterall, there consistent with supes power level and are just different degrees of the same power. SS isnt a slouch but, well its not really a contest.

Superman is physicaly more impressive but SS is more versatile although Supes has pulled off some impressive feats with his power set. SS only takes the majority against Superman due to exploiting his weakness/s, if he didn't or couldn't Superman would take him out more often than not.

Originally posted by Magee
Superman is physicaly more impressive but SS is more versatile although Supes has pulled off some impressive feats with his power set. SS only takes the majority against Superman due to exploiting his weakness/s, if he didn't or couldn't Superman would take him out more often than not.

Well said Magee

Uh, no, just no. The Silver Surfer would cold clock Superman.

Furthermore, this thread is ridiculous.

Silver Surfer would clock Superman easily. Silver Surfer will arrange Supermans molecules. Surfer wins.

Superman> Surfer without knowledge of Supes' weaknesses

Surfer with knowledge of Supes weaknesses> Superman

Surfer would automatically have knowledge due to cosmic awareness

But Superman aint cosmic

This is the only time I will ever agree with Sarutobi.

Cosmic>Yellow Sun Radiation Powers

Well superman can can traverse the enitre span of the unverse in a instant, he can destroy a start system with a simple sneeze. His heat vision destroyed a big bang, basically Supes comes at Surfer before surfer can translate his thought into action and gets hit with a heymaker pwoerful enough to cause a universal big crunch.

Uh, no, you underestimate the Silver Surfer too mcuh.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Well superman can can traverse the enitre span of the unverse in a instant, he can destroy a start system with a simple sneeze. His heat vision destroyed a big bang, basically Supes comes at Surfer before surfer can translate his thought into action and gets hit with a heymaker pwoerful enough to cause a universal big crunch.

You aren't quite familiar with the difference between pre and post crisis, hm?

Originally posted by Juntai
A lot of people give Surfer the nod over Superman due to his versatility and that's understandable, but I also feel is Supes is outright more powerful. And his versatility is also to a degree most don't give him credit for. His combat prowess is vastly over Surfers.

Superman......

50 feet wide, but a mile deep.

Surfer.......

Half a mile wide, and a mile deep.

It's not only versatility, else J'onn would be more powerful than Superman.

I don't see how he can be considered more powerful than Surfer, when Surfer goes as deep as he does, but also kills him in range as well.

Superman is much more dependable in a combat situation though.

To Avy....

The only physical stat that Superman trumps Surfer in is strength, so how can he be more powerful overall physically?

Originally posted by Zebedee
I'm not saying he'd win in battle as he has some weaknesses the Surfer could exploit. I just think he has greater overall power.

Wow. You're wrong, just totally wrong. The mere fact that he (Superman) has more exploitable weaknesses indicates he's the less powerful of the two.

So somone like Collosus is also more powerful than Superman? He doesn't have any weaknesses either.

That's not the point but in any case the Silver Surfer is still stronger than Supes.

Of course he's not stronger. There's nothing to suggest Surfer is physically stronger than Superman. Who is more powerful is up for debate however.

They are both top tier and both at the very top end of it. Both have ridiculously powerful feats. Neither has a feat which definitively puts one above the the other. Superman has the edge in combat speed and strength while Surfer has the edge in destuctive power and versatilty.

Supes destroyed a star system with a sneeze, he traversed the entire span of the universe in a instant. He threw a galaxy worth of planets acrros the universe effortlessly...he freaking flew through time and dimensions. Hello everything SBP did supes could do easily, plus where not even talking about a sun amped supes that could enhance his powers like Supes 1m and All-star supes(not to mention those where not even his limit as its implied he has almost unlimited power). Sure Surfer can transmute a rock into Kryptonite, but how the hell well he since supes will knock his head off before he even blinks.

That's Pre - Crisis Superman

Even he'll lose to the Surfer.

One word...

Omnipotence

That right there is all you need to prove Surfer wins

Saying Superman can beat the Surfer is like saying he can beat Galactus.

Surfer gets his ass handed to him by Thor and Thanos on a constant basis...and its pretty much supes>>>thor. Didnt Surfer get his board ripped apart by cable?. Regardless of that, surfer goes down no matter what.

Sure.

As in"he sure does get a ass kicking"yeah i agree.

Superman physically is greater than the Surfer, but the Surfer could drain him if he ever found out that he runs on Solar Energy.

It's hard to tell who would win.

Within a comic I'd give Superman a chance against Galactus. The guy has jobbed to nearly every marvel character by now. I've seen Thunderbird punch a hole in him for Gods sake and he was apparently at full power at the time.




Agreed I give the battle 50/50. Though I'd say the Kryptonite beam would be more effective as Superman has replenished his reserves in a fraction of a second. It was taking a few minutes for a 5 dimensional imp enhanced energy manipulator to drain him.

Originally posted by Zebedee
I'm not saying he'd win in battle as he has some weaknesses the Surfer could exploit. I just think he has greater overall power.

if you are refering to strength, then yes you are correct. However, if you are speaking on the power capacity of the two, then you are very absolutely wrong

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
if you are refering to strength, then yes you are correct. However, if you are speaking on the power capacity of the two, then you are very absolutely wrong

I'm talking about power and no i'm not wrong. If you want capacity look at Superman prime or sundipped Supes.

Exactly, look at supes 1m and all-star supes or even superman blue. Supes is capable of all of that, SS doesnt know what hit him.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Surfer gets his ass handed to him by Thor and Thanos on a constant basis...and its pretty much supes>>>thor. Didnt Surfer get his board ripped apart by cable?. Regardless of that, surfer goes down no matter what.


You do know that cable got pwned by surfer right? He even got his metal arm blown up and this was like...uber powerful cable. I don't remember surfer being beaten by Thor...but I know that he has been beaten by Thanos, but I think surfer has beaten Thanos as well.

Originally posted by Zebedee
I'm talking about power and no i'm not wrong. If you want capacity look at Superman prime or sundipped Supes.
Originally posted by The Great Galen
Exactly, look at supes 1m and all-star supes or even superman blue. Supes is capable of all of that, SS doesnt know what hit him.
You guys keep on going on about alternate versions of Supes and power ups for Supes like sundipping, but if you're going to do then then you also have to consider things like the Keeper and Unilord Surfer as well.

Both different reality versions of the surfer. Sun diped and Supes prime are both current Superman using / at his full potential. Im just saying its not the same thing as the Keeper.

Originally posted by Magee
Both different reality versions of the surfer. Sun diped and Supes prime are both current Superman using / at his full potential. Im just saying its not the same thing as the Keeper.
Wrong. Keeper is a Surfer from a different reality, but Uni-Lord was 616 Surfer.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wrong. Keeper is a Surfer from a different reality, but Uni-Lord was 616 Surfer.

What extra gadget did Unilord have as I have never read about him in a comic. The Keeper had the Quantum bands. If I want to cross Supes with another character I guess I could say Prime with the GL ring. Let's be honest the Keeper is not really the Surfer it's the Surfer plus Quasars abilities. Sundipped is still Superman unless we add Kismet to the mix which I wasn't.

Originally posted by Zebedee
What extra gadget did Unilord have as I have never read about him in a comic. The Keeper had the Quantum bands. If I want to cross Supes with another character I guess I could say Prime with the GL ring. Let's be honest the Keeper is not really the Surfer it's the Surfer plus Quasars abilities. Sundipped is still Superman unless we add Kismet to the mix which I wasn't.
The Keeper is just as valid to 616 Surfer as versions like Pre-Crisis Superman are to current Supes. And Keeper was MUCH more than just Surfer+Quasar.

As for Uni-Lord, that was when he absorbed enough energy to match another universe's version of Eternity and is as valid as sundipped Supes.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The Keeper is just as valid to 616 Surfer as versions like Pre-Crisis Superman are to current Supes. And Keeper was MUCH more than just Surfer+Quasar.

As for Uni-Lord, that was when he absorbed enough energy to match another universe's version of Eternity and is as valid as sundipped Supes.

The keeper got a synergistic affect out of having the quantum bands that is true, but it was the addition of Quantum bands that made him the keeper.

Unilord I know nothing about, I never read the comics with him in.

Originally posted by Zebedee
The keeper got a synergistic affect out of having the quantum bands that is true, but it was the addition of Quantum bands that made him the keeper.
I never said any differently. I just said that if you're going to base your opinion off of versions of Supes for alternate realities, then the same consideration has to be taken for Surfer. If All Star Supes and the rest are viable evidence for Supes being more powerful, then Keeper is viable evidence for Surfer being more powerful.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Unilord I know nothing about, I never read the comics with him in.
Well as I said, he matched power with an Eternity level being, which is significantly more power than Supes gets through sundipping.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said any differently. I just said that if you're going to base your opinion off of versions of Supes for alternate realities, then the same consideration has to be taken for Surfer. If All Star Supes and the rest are viable evidence for Supes being more powerful, then Keeper is viable evidence for Surfer being more powerful.


Well as I said, he matched power with an Eternity level being, which is significantly more power than Supes gets through sundipping.

The Keeper is really little difference to the sunergistic power Superman Prime(The Original) got from the GL ring with his Super will.

I cannot comment on Uni Lord. Was it continuity. I read a couple of times on the web no.

Originally posted by steverules
I don't remember surfer being beaten by Thor.
Surfer lost to Thor twice. The second time was against Warrior Madness Thor who (and this point has been debated forever) was 10x his ordinary strength. This, IMO, was a legit loss.

The first time SS lost to Thor, however, I say was wrong. First of all, Surfer was at a mere fraction of his original power. Secondly, he was fighting Thor on Thor's home turf; and lastly: there is a moment in the fight when Surfer could've finished Thor off but didn't. Instead, he paused to monologue, allowing Thor to crawl (that's right, crawl) back to retrieve his hammer.

Surfer against Superman would be a helluva fight (ie, where SS does Not exploit any of Supes' weaknesses). Going toe-to-toe, Surfer loses. But Surfer has overall power + versatility.

Surfer 5/10; 6/10 at best (with weakness exploitation: 9/10).

Well your forgetting the fact that supes is fast and stronger then surfer, surfer wouldnt be able to exploit any weakness considering his head would be punched off before he even has a chance to think. Not to mention supes could just sundip to the point where he wouldnt be effected by that green rock.

Originally posted by Zebedee
The Keeper is really little difference to the sunergistic power Superman Prime(The Original) got from the GL ring with his Super will.

I cannot comment on Uni Lord. Was it continuity. I read a couple of times on the web no.
I've seen nothing to suggest the Uni Lord saga isn't canon, which means that it's still just as valid as Supes sundipping in that both use energy absorption to increase their power levels far beyond their baseline.

Basically, what this all comes down to is that there's NOTHING to suggest that standard Supes is more powerful than standard Surfer.
Originally posted by The Great Galen
Well your forgetting the fact that supes is fast and stronger then surfer, surfer wouldnt be able to exploit any weakness considering his head would be punched off before he even has a chance to think. Not to mention supes could just sundip to the point where he wouldnt be effected by that green rock.
rotfl

Originally posted by darthgoober
I've seen nothing to suggest the Uni Lord saga isn't canon, which means that it's still just as valid as Supes sundipping in that both use energy absorption to increase their power levels far beyond their baseline.



Physically I would disagree, but it's all about opinion.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Physically I would disagree, but it's all about opinion.
Oh I have no problem admitting that Supes is STRONGER, but that's about it overall and Surfer's blast have shown more power than Supes HV and that more than makes up for the strength difference.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I have no problem admitting that Supes is STRONGER, but that's about it overall and Surfer's blast have shown more power than Supes HV and that more than makes up for the strength difference.

Not really as I stated power has a specific Scientific meaning. The power cosmic is more powerful than baseline Supes, The Surfer isn't. The Surfer may have more energy though.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Not really as I stated power has a specific Scientific meaning. The power cosmic is more powerful than baseline Supes, The Surfer isn't. The Surfer may have more energy though.
What the Hell are you talking about? The Power Cosmic is PART of Surfer so why are you trying to separate them? If you're asking who's STRONGER than the answer is Supes. If you're asking who's more powerful OVERALL(which is what you said in your first post), then the answer is Surfer.

Originally posted by Zebedee
I'm not saying he'd win in battle as he has some weaknesses the Surfer could exploit. I just think he has greater overall power.


Originally posted by darthgoober
What the Hell are you talking about? The Power Cosmic is PART of Surfer so why are you trying to separate them? If you're asking who's STRONGER than the answer is Supes. If you're asking who's more powerful OVERALL(which is what you said in your first post), then the answer is Surfer.

Actually it's debateable if the power cosmic is part of him. In the Hulk Troyjan War Arc, Traumas dad is able to as he calls it "open the door to the Surfer Channelling the Power Cosmic", and cause him to channel more than he can cope with. Now this seems to conflict with what you told me about Unilord so, who really knows.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Actually it's debateable if the power cosmic is part of him. In the Hulk Troyjan War Arc, Traumas dad is able to as he calls it "open the door to the Surfer Channelling the Power Cosmic", and cause him to channel more than he can cope with. Now this seems to conflict with what you told me about Unilord so, who really knows.
How is it debatable whether or not the Power Cosmic is part of Surfer? That's like saying that it's debatable whether or not Supes solar energy reserves are part of him.

And I guess you didn't ask(so that part's my bad), but overall power IS what you where talking about in the first post. And Surfer is overall, the more powerful of the two characters.

Originally posted by darthgoober
How is it debatable whether or not the Power Cosmic is part of Surfer? That's like saying that it's debatable whether or not Supes solar energy reserves are part of him.

And I guess you didn't ask(so that part's my bad), but overall power IS what you where talking about in the first post. And Surfer is overall, the more powerful of the two characters.

Supes stores it the Surfer may just channel it. If the power is not stored in him as the Troyjan War indicates. He is not as powerful as Supes in himself. The Power Cosmic is a greater energy Source.

Originally posted by Zebedee
Supes stores it the Surfer may just channel it. If the power is not stored in him as the Troyjan War indicates. He is not as powerful as Supes in himself. The Power Cosmic is a greater energy Source.
The Power Cosmic IS stored within Surfer. He can channel more power from space and other outside sources if necessary, but the Power Cosmic is HIS...

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8125/silversurfervol3012yp3.jpg

These two are most definitely peers in power, whether or not you think one is more powerful than the other. That much can't be denied.

However, slight edge to Superman if they were to fight considering the man is more battle oriented, and his top feats are against extremely powerful opponents in fights (with some exceptions). Surfer's top feats are usually done outside of battle (again, with some exceptions).

Surfer is unquestionably more versatile though.

Regardless, these two fighting each other would most definitely be an awesome spectacle.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The Power Cosmic IS stored within Surfer. He can channel more power from space and other outside sources if necessary, but the Power Cosmic is HIS...

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8125/silversurfervol3012yp3.jpg


You see that's very similar to what he said to Armaggedon, Traumas dad. To which Armageddon said he didn't believe he was telling the truth and slapped him by openining his channel wide. Hulk 416 no I don't have a scan.

Originally posted by Zebedee
You see that's very similar to what he said to Armaggedon, Traumas dad. To which Armageddon said he didn't believe he was telling the truth and slapped him by openining his channel wide. Hulk 416 no I don't have a scan.
Yeah...he channeled a bunch of energy through Surfer when Surfer wasn't ready, what the Hell does that prove? When Surfer recovered, the battle resumed and evidently Armaggedon couldn't do it again because their battle was inconclusive.

And the Power Cosmic is actually one of the basic building blocks of the Universe. NO ONE possess it in it's entirety, not even Galactus. But a significant portion is stored within the Silver Surfer. Taking that away for the purpose of this thread is no different than taking away the solar energy that's already stored in Supes system(effectively rendering him powerless) .

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah...he channeled a bunch of energy through Surfer when Surfer wasn't ready, what the Hell does that prove? When Surfer recovered, the battle resumed and evidently Armaggedon couldn't do it again because their battle was inconclusive.



He told the Surfer he was lying about being made of the power cosmic then proved it by showing he only channelled it. Surfer recovered and was able to take control of how fast the power cosmic flowed through him

Originally posted by darthgoober


And the Power Cosmic is actually one of the basic building blocks of the Universe. NO ONE possess it in it's entirety, not even Galactus. But a significant portion is stored within the Silver Surfer. Taking that away for the purpose of this thread is no different than taking away the solar energy that's already stored in Supes system(effectively rendering him powerless) .

This leads on to one of the strangest things in comics. Why Galactus actually has his hunger. It's been shown numerous times other beings can feed Galactus. The Keeper could, That guy eon recruited recently as guardian of the Universe etc, etc. Now I know all about his cosmic role, but why does he get hungry when he can just tap the power cosmic?

Michael Korvac showed it was just a case of wielding the power cosmic. After reading Galactuses computers he was able to control vast amounts of PC on a far greater scale than the Surfer. He "wielded" the power cosmic. You wield a weapon or tool that is not part of you. The PC is as you say an energy source.

Superman himself doesn't so much wield Sunlight as store it's energy in the same way we store food energy as Glycogen. I don't wield a ham sandwich.

I think surfer is more powerfull

As I understand it:

Superman is powered by solar energy. Whether he channels it, stores it, whatever, without it he is superpowerless. No superstrength, no flight, no invulnerability, etc. He becomes more/less like an ordinary human.

The Surfer channels (not stores, though he can) cosmic energy. However, without it, he is still near invulnerable due to the inherent nature of the galactic glaze which covers him. He also has a base strength of 100 tons (ie, without amping via power cosmic, this is his strength level).

Thus it would appear that without their signature energies, Surfer is more powerful than Superman. The only thing I'm not sure of is, is Surfer's base strength due to a certain level of cosmic energy always within him (please don't just assume this is the case; I would appreciate evidence to this fact). Regardless, this would not affect the molecular binding energy of his silver coating (as evidenced by the fact that when Surfer is weakened or drain, he's still quite durable).

What Superman has going for him, IMO, more than anything else, is that he has the "uncanny" ability to always rise to the challenge, regardless of what power level this requires. I do realize that to some extent this is because he's DC's flagship character (closely related to the reason, "Because he's Superman. Period", and for me, I can't think of any other character I would tolerate this from.

Originally posted by Mindship
As I understand it:

Superman is powered by solar energy. Whether he channels it, stores it, whatever, without it he is superpowerless. No superstrength, no flight, no invulnerability, etc. He becomes more/less like an ordinary human.

The Surfer channels (not stores, though he can) cosmic energy. However, without it, he is still near invulnerable due to the inherent nature of the galactic glaze which covers him. He also has a base strength of 100 tons (ie, without amping via power cosmic, this is his strength level).

Thus it would appear that without their signature energies, Surfer is more powerful than Superman. The only thing I'm not sure of is, is Surfer's base strength due to a certain level of cosmic energy always within him (please don't just assume this is the case; I would appreciate evidence to this fact). Regardless, this would not affect the molecular binding energy of his silver coating (as evidenced by the fact that when Surfer is weakened or drain, he's still quite durable).

What Superman has going for him, IMO, more than anything else, is that he has the "uncanny" ability to always rise to the challenge, regardless of what power level this requires. I do realize that to some extent this is because he's DC's flagship character (closely related to the reason, "Because he's Superman. Period", and for me, I can't think of any other character I would tolerate this from.

On what do you base the Surfer is strong without replemishment with cosmic energy. Planet Hulk seems to indicate this is not completely true. He was growing weaker and his power would have run out.

The molecular binding of his silver coating is not really much without the power cosmic. When the Black Panter stripped him of the ability to channel the power cosmic he was beaten up in a fist fight with a barely enhanced human. Despite still having his glaze. The glaze isn't much without the power cosmic. He felt all the punches from the Panthers very human fists.

Originally posted by Zebedee
On what do you base the Surfer is strong without replemishment with cosmic energy. Planet Hulk seems to indicate this is not completely true. He was growing weaker and his power would have run out.

The molecular binding of his silver coating is not really much without the power cosmic. When the Black Panter stripped him of the ability to channel the power cosmic he was beaten up in a fist fight with a barely enhanced human. Despite still having his glaze. The glaze isn't much without the power cosmic. He felt all the punches from the Panthers very human fists.

I'm not that familiar with either story, but it seems to me there is an inherent contradiction here.

On Planet Hulk, you say Surfer was growing weaker, yet I remember seeing scans where he was very much holding his own until Hulk and another double-teamed him. Regardless, if he was growing weaker, his silver glaze was still holding up well, much better than what you're implying about his encounter with Black Panther. And regarding that, there are many here (myself included) who feel Panther manhandling Surfer was about as legit as Bruce Batkicking Captain Marvel or the Hulk.

Again, I don't profess to be well-informed on either combat scenario, but others on KMC are, and it might be worthwhile to hear what they have to say about either incident.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not that familiar with either story, but it seems to me there is an inherent contradiction here.

On Planet Hulk, you say Surfer was growing weaker, yet I remember seeing scans where he was very much holding his own until Hulk and another double-teamed him. Regardless, if he was growing weaker, his silver glaze was still holding up well, much better than what you're implying about his encounter with Black Panther. And regarding that, there are many here (myself included) who feel Panther manhandling Surfer was about as legit as Bruce Batkicking Captain Marvel or the Hulk.

Again, I don't profess to be well-informed on either combat scenario, but others on KMC are, and it might be worthwhile to hear what they have to say about either incident.

It might indeed the first incidence he was not getting as much PC to channel and was highly weakened. The second BP used a version Dooms device to strip him of the PC. The glaze remained but his resilience did not and BP beat him up.

Originally posted by Zebedee
I'm not saying he'd win in battle as he has some weaknesses the Surfer could exploit. I just think he has greater overall power.
I don't think it's logical, but if it makes you happy sure, go ahead and think that.

Silver Surfer is faster
Silver Surfer could manipulate matter to sorrund Supes in kryptonite


Even if Surfer doesn't no about kryptonite, Supes couldn't even touch him if Surfer was trying.

Evidently Surfer has the power to put Supes into deep space where there isn't a sun within light years.


Supes will die a slow painful death.


Supes would putup an awesome fight, but he couldn't beat Surfer.


Then again maybe he could. Surfer's potential has never been expriemented with. In every comic Silver Surfer is in he's been jobbed because the power cosmic is too good.


I mean comeon, friend or not, Surfer should be able to takeout the human torch without even thinking about it.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not that familiar with either story, but it seems to me there is an inherent contradiction here.

On Planet Hulk, you say Surfer was growing weaker, yet I remember seeing scans where he was very much holding his own until Hulk and another double-teamed him. Regardless, if he was growing weaker, his silver glaze was still holding up well, much better than what you're implying about his encounter with Black Panther. And regarding that, there are many here (myself included) who feel Panther manhandling Surfer was about as legit as Bruce Batkicking Captain Marvel or the Hulk.

Again, I don't profess to be well-informed on either combat scenario, but others on KMC are, and it might be worthwhile to hear what they have to say about either incident.

Without the pc, surfer was nearly taken out by a poisoned cup of coffee.

He, like Superman depends on cosmic energy for his powerset to work correctly both offensively and defensively.

T-vo should work without solar energy considering it's nature.

Originally posted by Captain King
I don't think it's logical, but if it makes you happy sure, go ahead and think that.

Silver Surfer is faster
Silver Surfer could manipulate matter to sorrund Supes in kryptonite


Even if Surfer doesn't no about kryptonite, Supes couldn't even touch him if Surfer was trying.

Evidently Surfer has the power to put Supes into deep space where there isn't a sun within light years.


Supes will die a slow painful death.


Supes would putup an awesome fight, but he couldn't beat Surfer.


Then again maybe he could. Surfer's potential has never been expriemented with. In every comic Silver Surfer is in he's been jobbed because the power cosmic is too good.


I mean comeon, friend or not, Surfer should be able to takeout the human torch without even thinking about it.

Surfer is faster travelling, but both actually bend time/space to travel from place to place once approaching light speed.

However, off his board and not travelling SS is not very fast at all, while Superman is.

And yes..SS does job in most of his comics. His power set belongs more to a skyfather level character than a herald. Marvel needs a serious retcon of the character if they ever want him to be viable and interesting.

off the top of my head, superman has been said to be able to shut off stars by just blowing at them, he can hold black holes, he can move way faster than light, destroy solar systems, etc..

but what superman are u talking about?

well has the silver surfer ever flown at speeds allowing him to escape the gravitaional pull of two black holes? or has silver surfer ever held and controlled its gravitational pull in the palm of his hands? i know superman has

Originally posted by Dexter_Morgan
On what do you base the Surfer is strong without replemishment with cosmic energy. Planet Hulk seems to indicate this is not completely true. He was growing weaker and his power would have run out.

The molecular binding of his silver coating is not really much without the power cosmic. When the Black Panter stripped him of the ability to channel the power cosmic he was beaten up in a fist fight with a barely enhanced human. Despite still having his glaze. The glaze isn't much without the power cosmic. He felt all the punches from the Panthers very human fists.

Surfer was also poisoned by a cup of coffee when low on power.

Originally posted by Avlon
Surfer was also poisoned by a cup of coffee when low on power.


Yeah I say Superman wins a steady 6 or 7 wins out of 10 based on fighting history, power, durability and combat speed. How many do you believe Supes wins over Surfer - Avlon? I know you believe he wins just I forget how many would you give him out of ten?

Originally posted by Avlon
Surfer is faster travelling, but both actually bend time/space to travel from place to place once approaching light speed.

However, off his board and not travelling SS is not very fast at all, while Superman is.

And yes..SS does job in most of his comics. His power set belongs more to a skyfather level character than a herald. Marvel needs a serious retcon of the character if they ever want him to be viable and interesting. Surfer can move at nano-speed (e.g. move his limbs faster than a moving photon) off his board, and you know that. Just because he doesn't engage in footraces and fly around blocking bullets doesn't mean he's slow off his board. Everything else you said about the traveling is correct.

Galactus is above Skyfather level. Surfer rarely jobs. When he's weakened, like Galactus, he's weak, and it's always stated in frame.

Surfer doesn't need a retcon, and he's very viable and interesting, and he's one of the more popular non-flagship characters of the franchise. He just has a whole lot of powers. You want him retconned so that he'd be depowered, so that Superman would logically be able to kick his ass.
Originally posted by shortstickman
well has the silver surfer ever flown at speeds allowing him to escape the gravitaional pull of two black holes? or has silver surfer ever held and controlled its gravitational pull in the palm of his hands? i know superman has Surfer flies into black holes for fun. His speed is virtually limitless, and he can exist outside of space-time. Read up.
Originally posted by Decimus
Yeah I say Superman wins a steady 6 or 7 wins out of 10 based on fighting history, power, durability and combat speed. How many do you believe Supes wins over Surfer - Avlon? I know you believe he wins just I forget how many would you give him out of ten? He'd probably give him 8-9/10

I give Supes maybe 0.5/10 if Surfer is low on power.

I know you guys are Superman lovers, and I know Avvy hates Surfer, but facts are facts. Surfer pwns Superman in most cases.

Silver Surfer is kinda powerless without his silver board.

Originally posted by Faith27
Silver Surfer is kinda powerless without his silver board.

Um, no he's not. That's only the movie version.

Surfer can even recreate his board if it gets destroyed