Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

In the Empire Strikes Back, Luke went into a cave and encountered Vader, where at the time he thought it was real. After the defeat, Luke's face was shown underneath Vader's mask.

What Does this mean? Later in the movie, Yoda says "The cave, remember your failure at the cave" Luke "Master Yoda, I learned so much since then"

When Luke said this, he knew he did something wrong at the time.

At the time with Vader...
Was it Retaliation to destroy the enemy? (The thing a Jedi to do) or giving into anger? (Path to the darkside) perhaps due to his parents, Owen and Beru's death.

OR, was it an indication of Vader and Luke being the same person. If Luke were to kill Vader (himself) it would lead Luke along the same darkside path his father did (In another way).

The same kinda thought Luke felt as Vader was lying defeated on the death star in Ep VI.

Your question is kind of slanted. It's like asking someone the literal meaning of a scene v. the figurative meaning of a scene; which in this case it's apparent that they're the same.

There are many threads debating teh cave scene.

Roughly it comes down to this: Luke goes into teh domain of evil to meet his own dark side. It's a test. Luke doesn't have to take his weapons, but he doesn't dare to go without them. He trusts them more than Yoda, so he meets that what the Dark Side can lead to if you rely on the power of your abilities/tools instead of the Force. He meets himself in a way, or what he could end up as... So he failed by choosing the path of the Dark Side and meeting it.

I bet there's many way to discuss it. The trick is not to discuss it too much, it's the best scene from the saga, let's not ruin it.

The best scene in the Saga?

Its great, but everything with Dooku is the best scene in the Saga.(Had to do it, couldn't resist )

There are no "best scenes of the saga" in the PT.

The Cave is everything that is great with SW, cause it doesn't talk down to the viewer. In a sense, the only explaination you get is Yoda saying, "Remember your failure at the cave."

Compare that with Anakin in ROTS saying to Dooku, "My powers have doubled since we last met Count." OK, are we that stupid George, that we haven't figured out that Anakin is much more powerful now then he was in AOTC, do you have to hit us over the head?

Getting back to the cave, this is a turning point in the SW movies, and I wish Lucas would have continued on with these type of scenes instead of how he approached ROTJ & the PT and trying to pander to kids. Just watch any Scifi movie, you just don't see scenes like this, haunting yet with a certain contextial meaning that the viewer really doesn't understand until repeated viewings.

The cave is a perfect example of trusting the audience and not trying to trick them, but just kinda throw them off, but once the do get it, it makes perfect sense. Luke biggest demon was himself, and that is why he sees his face in Vaders mask, and it is a metaphor for every person who sees a SW movie, your biggest enemy in life is sometimes the person you see in the mirror everyday.

I saw ESB when I was 11 years old and I wondered much an dlong about that scene. It stuck to me becaue it made me think... it was fascinating and intriguing... best scene of the saga.

I love the cave
Its Star Wars on acid

Oh yeah.

I wasn't too fond of it, it never stuck out.

Lucas actually explains it in the commentary for Ep5, i believe. Him turning to the darkside is his destiny shouldhe continue down the path he was on at that time, i.e. not trusting in Yoda and the force, looking away to the future and for adventure and excitement. Luckily for the Jedi, he changed his ways after meeting with Vader. He would have turned in ESB, but instead he calmed himself and looked down at the holes and trusted that the force would guide him to safety and away from Vader.

That sounds like GL alright.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
but instead he calmed himself and looked down at the holes and trusted that the force would guide him to safety and away from Vader.

That sounds almost as risky as going to WC with lights out and trusting that the Force would lift the seat up for you...

Originally posted by JediRobin23
In the Empire Strikes Back, Luke went into a cave and encountered Vader, where at the time he thought it was real. After the defeat, Luke's face was shown underneath Vader's mask.

What Does this mean? Later in the movie, Yoda says "The cave, remember your failure at the cave" Luke "Master Yoda, I learned so much since then"

When Luke said this, he knew he did something wrong at the time.

At the time with Vader...
Was it Retaliation to destroy the enemy? (The thing a Jedi to do) or giving into anger? (Path to the darkside) perhaps due to his parents, Owen and Beru's death.

OR, was it an indication of Vader and Luke being the same person. If Luke were to kill Vader (himself) it would lead Luke along the same darkside path his father did (In another way).

The same kinda thought Luke felt as Vader was lying defeated on the death star in Ep VI.

"only what you take with you". to me this is an indication that the cave simply manifests one's own fear and anger into hallucinations/visions. luke wanted to kill vader because his motivation was rooted in fear and revenge, thats what he brought with him. as far as luke seeing his own face, i think it simply indicated to luke how easy it was to turn to the dark side, as he certainly did not behave like a jedi. notice also that it was luke who drew his weapon first.


not that i presume to have figured the scene out....in fact i think its a mind****

Not really...it's understandable, but more emotionally than to put into words. Plus it has more than one side to it, that's why it's so great.

WC? I've been at work all day...I'm tired and don't get it now. I now know what its like to be Count Makashi...

Originally posted by Schecter
"only what you take with you". to me this is an indication that the cave simply manifests one's own fear and anger into hallucinations/visions. luke wanted to kill vader because his motivation was rooted in fear and revenge, thats what he brought with him. as far as luke seeing his own face, i think it simply indicated to luke how easy it was to turn to the dark side, as he certainly did not behave like a jedi. notice also that it was luke who drew his weapon first.


not that i presume to have figured the scene out....in fact i think its a mind****

I think perhaps its a test for Luke only. A test not explained in the PT, but a test for a Jedi to understand himself, or part of his learning. Yoda knew what might happen. Luke failed in Yoda's eyes due to this, as Yoda felt it.

This led Yoda to not have the full confidence in Luke to take on the emperor alone without the full training of previous Jedi training in the republic.. Luke`s cockyness and confidence was a risk to a Jedi order that was there before. The republic as Yoda knew it.
Luke was either a Risk or the only one to save the galaxy from Palpatine. Cant blame Yoda, he was decieved with Anakin, extra precautions needed for Luke. Obiwan knew as well as Yoda, but being the last hope. Obiwan was obligated to do what he had to do. Train Luke and take the risk.
Luke was faithful to the force until he gave into his anger on the death star. Only then he had a taste of the darkside as he defeated his father. This was a point that not even Yoda could have predicted. Faith in the force, Luke was the one who defeated the emperor.

Luke for Chosen One!

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
WC? I've been at work all day...I'm tired and don't get it now. I now know what its like to be Count Makashi...

Whats that supposed to mean, i don't get it.

It's ok, you wouldn't.

exactly...but seriously, what's WC?

WC= Water closet... AKA toilet. European name for the smallest room in the house. He doesn't speak English very well.

ah...

Originally posted by JediRobin23
I think perhaps its a test for Luke only. A test not explained in the PT, but a test for a Jedi to understand himself, or part of his learning. Yoda knew what might happen. Luke failed in Yoda's eyes due to this, as Yoda felt it.

This led Yoda to not have the full confidence in Luke to take on the emperor alone without the full training of previous Jedi training in the republic.. Luke`s cockyness and confidence was a risk to a Jedi order that was there before. The republic as Yoda knew it.
Luke was either a Risk or the only one to save the galaxy from Palpatine. Cant blame Yoda, he was decieved with Anakin, extra precautions needed for Luke. Obiwan knew as well as Yoda, but being the last hope. Obiwan was obligated to do what he had to do. Train Luke and take the risk.
Luke was faithful to the force until he gave into his anger on the death star. Only then he had a taste of the darkside as he defeated his father. This was a point that not even Yoda could have predicted. Faith in the force, Luke was the one who defeated the emperor.

i think yoda very well predicted that luke would lose control and strike down his father in a fit of rage (or vice versa). i think what was truly remarkable was how luke came to his senses and tossed the saber away, in essense placing all his faith (and the fate of the galaxy) into anakin's hands.

makes me wonder if it was all yoda's plan, considering like the cave, the solution was for luke to part with his weapon.

Luke for Chosen one.

"You have lost, my queeq."

You can wish all you want queeq, Anakin is the chosen one.

I know. But dramatically it would make more sense. Anakin is a poor excuse for a chosen one. He never did anything except kill the Emperor. Others fought teh serious battles for him.

eh....

Yeh...

He still went through some tough shit though...

He id but he never chose, he never chose to do good. That is what Luke did....ergo they are different. Luke could resist temptation, Vader could not.

Originally posted by queeq
WC= Water closet... AKA toilet. European name for the smallest room in the house. He doesn't speak English very well.

Me insulted.

No feel like talk right now...

He chose to do good when he was thinking clearly, just not all the time...but then again, who does choose to do good ALL the time? Luke disobeyed OB1, and Yoda. technically that's wrong. Its not evil like some stuff Anakin did, but like I said, Luke didn't have the background that Anakin did. As a child, Anakin was far more good-hearted than Luke ever was...always trying to help "even if it risked his own life." (from Databank) and it wasn't until he got with the Jedi that he started going downhill. In a sense, the Jedi helped corrupt him. They told him everything he had ever felt in his life, was wrong, didn't give him the respect he deserved, not as a chosen one, but just as a person, and ultimately pushed him over the edge with help from Palpatine of course. He even says, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil," showing that he believed it. He didn't believe himself to be the evil person and the one doing wrong (although he was), but everything that was "wrong" with the govt including the Jedi, happened. They tried to take over the senate and the whole nine. I dunno, i just don't think its as cut an dry as you're trying to make it. I see your points, definitely, but its not just black and white...there is always a larger grey area.

That's what I said: from AOTC on he did what he felt like. He killed Tusken because he chose to, he disobeyed OB1 to go to Tatooine because he felt like it, he fell in love and married Padme because he felt like it even though it would lead to the Dark Side, he grows closer to palpy than to OB1 because Palpy makes him feel comfy, he goes out to kill younglings because he agrees to, he turns to the Dark Side because he feel he can save PAdme that way, he kills all the confederate leaders who trusted Sidious because suddenly he must obey his master (but never with OB1) and then he kills Padme and fights OB1....

All due to not thinking clearly???? No way, this grown up Anakin is a one way ticket to the Dark Side. And in the ways of the Force there is NO grey area: there is light and Dark. It's obvious when you cross the line and Anakin had a subscription to Crossing over to the Dark Side Monthly.

But what I was saying that just didn't join the darkside for the sake of being evil. All he did (and regretted instantly and knew was wrong) he did for what he believed to be a greater good...until the end and started getting power hungry.

Killed sand people for killing th eone person who loved him, went to Tatooine to save his mom. And who wants to fall in love? You have no control over it. He fell in love cause he couldn't help it, and decided to marry his one true love. didn't Luke marry Mara Jade, a woma nwho was evil, and still not turn? Marriage =/= darkside. The guilt from the Jedi Council did that. Palpy gives him (supposed) respect that he feels the ocuncil does not, kills younglings because by that time he's gone, and he kills the separatist leaders cause they were assholes. They, along with Palps, caused the war.


And he did not kill Padme..."medically she's fine...for unknown reasons..." Not him.

We may just have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe he went for any greater good. He was more torn between doing good and doing evil. In the end, the only reason he gave up on the light side was for saving Padme... he chose to destroy all that made who he was just to avoid having the same bad feeling he had with his mom.

He was basically being selfish. Anakin always wanted more power. He got too greedy and looked what happened to him on Mustafar (Go Obiwan!!). His power blinded him to the threat that Palpatine held towards the galaxy.

Luke may have disobeyed Yoda and Obiwan but at least Luke was willing to give himself up to resque his friends. And he learns from his mistakes. Anakin made many mistakes, but, he didnt learn from them. This is his falling. Think Othello. The Emperor being the trusted friend until Othell was corrupted by jealosy and dispare and killed his wife... almost same here. Just a diferent set of circumstances!! lol

Can Anakin not be considered the Chosen One because he played on both side, experienced everything, and chose to go to the light side?

No.. because if he hadnt had a son or daughter. Vader would still exist!

That makes no sense. He did learn from his mistakes and he DID give up his life for the lightside of the force. You can say it was for his son, but a Sith wouldn't care about that. He experienced both, saw the ultimate error in his ways and then fulfilled his destiny as the Chosen One. He destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the force.

Like i said before, everything he did in secret is what Luke allowed in his, more powerful, Jedi Order. So its not that Anakin was always power hungry, cause he wasn't - not until Padme's soon to be death, he was actually mapping out the blueprints for the next generation of Jedi. Luke saw the wrong in Anakin and the Jedi Order, and fused them together to make a new and improved version.

Say what you will, but Anakin is the Chosen One and did everything he had to do throughout his destiny to fulfill the prophecy.

You're a true GL croney boy.

No one is denying that Anakin is the Chosen one. I just think the prophecy doesn't make much sense since Anakin is not a very good chosen one. There's nothing in his ways that is worth following. And yes, he did give up his life to bring balance. But als Palpy said, it was like this: "Young fool, only now at the end do you understand." I think Anakin thought Palpy was talking to him.

How would he think he was talking to him? That makes no sense. Everything that happens throughout someones destiny is just that...destined. He had to go through all that to fulfill the prophecy.

It was joke, Subjekt.... a joke. I was ridiculing the whole Chosen One business...

Originally posted by queeq
There's nothing in his ways that is worth following. And yes, he did give up his life to bring balance. But als Palpy said, it was like this: "Young fool, only now at the end do you understand." I think Anakin thought Palpy was talking to him.

I wouldn't say he was vrey young anymore...

*Vader's thoughts on seeing Luke attacked by his master:*
"Hey....I've been a ruthless monster for over twenty-years: I've probably killed thousands, if not millions, of people; I nearly single-handedly eradicated my Jedi brethren....but....killing one man will atone for it all!"

And did it?

Not in my opinion, if the EU is to be considered....didn't seem to change the state of the galaxy very much.
Poor Vader....no sympathy from this quarter.

Then it is a good thing this is the OT section.

More like OTF....there's not much actual discussion here.

Well, if people bring in good discussions, we discuss, but until then...

That's the thing, innit? Nothing to discuss, really....

Well, think of something, the movies have been out quite a while.

Originally posted by queeq
It was joke, Subjekt.... a joke. I was ridiculing the whole Chosen One business... I thought jokes were meant to be funny?

People with a sense of humor will get it.

I found it slightly amusing. Not as far as funny though.

I find funny things funny.

So then what did you think of the comment made by queeq?

Do I have to think too?

Yes.

Talk about showstoppers....
Like my ol' dad used to say: "Monkey see, Monkey do. Why can't you?"

You're an orangutan?

Shhh!

Not so loud...

Okay...ssshhhh....

Too late, it is revealed.

Maybe I can delete this thread.

No. Plzzz dount!

Originally posted by queeq
it's the best scene from the saga






Originally posted by queeq
There are no "best scenes of the saga" in the PT.



crylaugh

What's so funny? Makes perfect sense.

Are you saying Mr.Queeq, that a slapstick scene with the Binkster is not worse than the action packed opening of ROTS...?
Or that the painfully bad pre-arena execution "love declaration" scene in AOTC, known for its abilty to stetch mere seconds into whole weeks is more thrilling than the slaughering of the Sandpeople in the same movie...?

You can't be serious....can you...? This has to be the Queeq that we respect so having a fun poke in our ribs, surely...!!!

Originally posted by queeq
There are no "best scenes of the saga" in the PT.

I rest my case... for now.

You leave unopposed.

I always do.

Not always.

Yes I do.

Oh really?

Yup... Like now. I am right and no one will contradict me.

CLOSING.