Video Blog: William Lane Craig

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ushomefree
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DigiMark007
So many erroneous assumptions it's not even funny. Utter trash for the most part, but I'll take the time to posit counter-arguments for each of these ridiculous videos.

Video #1:
Even in the first minute he wrongly categorizes both atheist conceptions on creation and the science behind the Big Bang. Big Bang, yes, but he says this was the absolute beginning. Roger Penrose championed the idea that the Big Bang was simply one of several, and that time in this state is curved in on itself to such an extent that linear time as we perceive it cannot be said to exist. In any case, the Big Bang is not an "absolute beginning" as this guy seems to suggest.

And he also ignores quantum observations of particles being created out of "nothing", a phase shift in quantum state that likely created the first particles of the universe.

Beyond that, the obvious problem with a top-down Creator-deity is that it's saying "here's the complex universe. So there must have been an even more complex God to make it." Thus the question, what made God? It's not a legit question, theists say...God simply is. If you want to believe that on faith, ok, but it's not a rational explanation and actually disagrees with any known principle of causality.

Video #2:
All he's outlining is the Anthropic principle, which actually refutes theist dogma, not supports it. The idea that certain factors had to be exactly as they are to make our universe. It's an old argument, not anything new to the religious right's attack on science. The anthropic principle shows how the universe came to be how it is without anything or anyone intervening. The laws of physics saw to that. With the forces of the universe as they are, God isn't needed, nor is He a likely force behind creating it. Most of the forces alluded to (see Frank Tipler's work for more of this line of thought) are constants and literally can't change. So saying "what are the odds of this happening?!?!" means nothing. The odds are 1/1, or 100%. And the others that are variable rely on their interaction with the other forces, thus only a very limited range of variation.

Also, experimental scenarios have been developed that estimate what the universe would be like with different values for these forces. And the conclusion is that we could end up with something similar to our universe, where life could arise, with a variety of values for these variables. No divine intervention needed.

He relishes in quoting Stephen Hawking, btw. Hawking's not religious in any way, shape, or form.

As always, the ID advocates describe evolution as "chance". "It's either chance or design," they say. To the contrary, evolution has very specific methods and makes perfect sense without having to resort to "chance". Evolution didn't happen by ridiculous luck. It happened through natural selection, which makes perfect sense and elegantly displays how we came to be without the need for a designer.

Video #3:
Objective moral values don't exist. It depends on your perspective. To say there's objective moral values is to suggest that something is true for everyone...any culture, time period, person, scenario, etc. It's patently false. Morality is relative to the perspective from which you're viewing it.

He doesn't defend his objective morality except to try to appela to us emotionally ("We know this is true inside of us"wink and to try to shock us into agreement with events like rape and the Holocaust.

Laughably, he quotes noted evolutionists to strengthen his argument, immediately after he tried to bring down their argument in the last video. Altruism evolved as a means to survival, which was assimilated into our conscious minds and we tried to turn it into objective truth...we all see where that leads us. Harmful dogmas that create division between religious groups, families, cultures, etc.

Video #4
Ah, the historical Jesus. The one that bears so many similarities to the Egyptian Horus that you could make a pages-long comparison of everything from major themes to tiny details, including the resurrection. The same Jesus that you can find (literally) hundreds of mythological predecessors to, whether it is the virgin birth, resurrection, or many of the details of his ministry.

Yes, the same Jesus we read about in the Gospels, all written decades after his life by people who were not eye-witnesses. The same Gospels that contradict knowledge we have of the time period (the hogwash about Mary and Joseph returning for a census to be taken is particularly outlandish, and we can deny it with historical records of the census that took place years earlier...and was only done because it was said that the savior would be born in Bethlehem).

His "3 points" to prove the resurrection:
1. He doesn't offer evidence for why his token expert believes that there's valid evidence for believing in the empty tomg. None is offered. Also, the "tomb" has been said to have been found numerous times. None can ever be confirmed.
2. Eyewitness accounts aren't proof, and are notably flawed. And these WEREN'T eyewitness accounts....they were supposedly eyewitness accounts written by people who never knew the witnesses.
3. People coming to believe in the resurrection doesn't mean anything...if that were the case, he'd just point at the billions of Christians and say "Ha! I guess we're right."

Video #5:
Shifting the burden of proof?! Priceless, and a tired argument. The universe displays no design and no evidence of a creator. I'd challenge anyone to show me otherwise. The theists are believing in a God without rational evidence....the burden of proof is squarely on their shoulders. "You can't prove God's absence," he says. True. But nothing can be proved, objectively speaking, including his existence. And there's no rational reason to believe in it. Christ, he even says it: "I see no reason why a lack of evidence means God doesn't exist." It would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Video #6:
His 5 pieces of evidence:
1. The existence of the unvierse (detailed earlier) doesn't mean a godly creator....which would be even more improbable, unlikely, and harder to believe than asimple explanation that has nothing to do with God.
...actually the rest of his points are just a summary of the earlier videos.

Atheism might not be right. But Christianity surely isn't either, at least as this guy describes it.

...

DigiMark007
Note to ushome:
Use your own opinions. Copying/pasting others is simply lazy debating, and is mainly only used by yourself and JIA.

And there's all kinds of flaws in this argument. I feel like this guy is actively trying to attack atheism, which is divisive and derogatory to a large number of compassionate and free-thinking people.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Copying/pasting others is simply lazy debating, and is mainly only used by yourself and JIA.

This is because they are the same person.

debbiejo
I need a sound card...... sad

Alliance
Sources:
Digimark007
Adam_POE

and debbie needs a sound card.

DigiMark007
*checks "being quoted as a source" off of life goals*

tinkabear

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This is because they are the same person.

I actually sock checked him, and he's clean. Though I suppose that as far as debating methods and demeanor, you're about right.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I actually sock checked him, and he's clean.

How does one do that?

Nellinator
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
How does one do that? IP address check I would assume. If they match it's the same computer. It doesn't stop a sock from using two different computers though I don't think. Plus, IP blockers can complicate things.

ushomefree
DigiMark007--

I was overwhelmed by your response. You provided your views regarding each of the various videos I posted--which I appreciate--but you did so in one fell swoop. Perhaps, if your willing, regroup your thoughts and resubmit a response to video one. We can then participate in a friendly debate, and when we have exhausted ourselves, we can then, continue to the second video and so on.

I look forward to the debate, since I disagreed with all that you brought to the table, especially your comment regarding "...quantum observations of particles being created out of 'nothing', a phase shift in quantum state that likely created the first particles of the universe." For the life of me, I simply cannot wrap my mind around the sources your digesting this information from. Statements of this caliber to do not appeal to science in any respect. You certainly did not acquire such ideals from scientific journals.

And your views on Christianity are completely at odds with scholarly knowledge regarding Jewish and Roman history, not to mention the Christian faith itself. For a brief--but concise--overview of the origin of Christianity, namely, the resurrection and the gospels that document such, read the following article (which, by the way, contains 24 references in the bibliography): http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/craig-resurrection.html. I ask that you read this article, since I will be proposing aspects of the material covered in our debate in the latter. Otherwise, never mind; the debate will be interesting nonetheless.

Aside from everything, I was curious to read your thoughts on this video: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/147. It is nothing in depth, but it is fantastic to take in and watch!

Take care.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007--

I was overwhelmed by your response. You provided your views regarding each of the various videos I posted--which I appreciate--but you did so in one fell swoop. Perhaps, if your willing, regroup your thoughts and resubmit a response to video one. We can then participate in a friendly debate, and when we have exhausted ourselves, we can then, continue to the second video and so on.

I look forward to the debate, since I disagreed with all that you brought to the table, especially your comment regarding "...quantum observations of particles being created out of 'nothing', a phase shift in quantum state that likely created the first particles of the universe." For the life of me, I simply cannot wrap my mind around the sources your digesting this information from. Statements of this caliber to do not appeal to science in any respect. You certainly did not acquire such ideals from scientific journals.

And your views on Christianity are completely at odds with scholarly knowledge regarding Jewish and Roman history, not to mention the Christian faith itself. For a brief--but concise--overview of the origin of Christianity, namely, the resurrection and the gospels that document such, read the following article (which, by the way, contains 24 references in the bibliography): http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/craig-resurrection.html. I ask that you read this article, since I will be proposing aspects of the material covered in our debate in the latter. Otherwise, never mind; the debate will be interesting nonetheless.

Aside from everything, I was curious to read your thoughts on this video: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/147. It is nothing in depth, but it is fantastic to take in and watch!

Take care.

See, I'm in a moral bind right now. On the one hand, the videos anger me to no end. On the other hand, you're turning the other cheek so it's kinda hard to act pissed without seeming like the bad guy.

But here's my problem: You posted videos that basically do nothing but bash atheism. Not your words specifically, but you're attaching yourself to them by posting them.

Now normally I wouldn't have responded, but I was incensed enough that this guy would go out of his way to call atheists out that I felt like there should at least be a reasoned response to his claims. But the truth is, I don't want to debate about this stuff. In my mind there is no debate because Christianity is wrong for numerous obvious reasons. I'm equally as aware that I'm never going to convince you of this, and would rather not spend my time here on KMC pointlessly bashing my head against a metaphoric wall.

The other part is, I've always told people what I belive when appropriate, and in the course of doing so I occasionally have to call other religions into question. But I don't go out of my way to tear down religious belief. And that's exactly what William Craig is doing, so regardless of anything he says (right or wrong) I can't respect him for that. And in responding I had to go out of my way to counter-attack both him, you, and Christianity. I'm nearly as disappointed in myself as I am in Craig and yourself.

So no thanks. You're welcome to look into anything I said to find the validity of it or counter-arguments to it. But this nigh-worthless thread at least has a viewpoint from both sides....that's all I wanted to accomplish and now I'm done.

Originally posted by Nellinator
IP address check I would assume. If they match it's the same computer. It doesn't stop a sock from using two different computers though I don't think. Plus, IP blockers can complicate things.

Basically. It's one of my mod-powers.

cool

Alliance
Originally posted by ushomefree
Aside from everything, I was curious to read your thoughts on this video: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/147. It is nothing in depth, but it is fantastic to take in and watch!

Its more fantastic if you actually know the science behind the video. Besdies, the origial video is found here: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/technique/tprojects/6850.html Its much better than listening to that man prattle on.

I'm sure this will spireal into a debate about design. In which case, I'll be here watching.

Also...why make a thread simply posting a factual swiss cheese of a video and then entirely change the topic? Sounds like someone has issues.

Roman history?....BAH.

DigiMark007
TED is a great organization. That whole website is littered with informative presentations. Can't say that particular video was too great...it was mostly just making 3-D images of cells. Fun, and I'm sure the video itself would be visually exiciting, but not groundbreaking.

ushomefree

ushomefree
And thanks Alliance for the hyperlink. Excellent, Sir!

Alliance

DigiMark007
ushome

You continue to act graciously, so in that respect you have my thanks.

But there's a few logical fallacies taking place here. For one, there's an insane amount of confirmation bias taking part on your end. A person knows what they believe, then focuses on whatever material seems to support it, and then rationalizes away or ignores the contradicting evidence. Confirmation bias happens to all of us, and I'm not exempt from this, but an utter ignorance of "well, maybe it isn't true because of these reasons..." suggests a strong confirmation bias against anything I might offer you. I'm intimately familiar with Christian theology, as well as more arguments for ID and objective morality than I can currently remember. If needed, I could play a damn good Christian apologist, and I doubt many would crack my intellectual armor. Can you say that about atheism? If so, good for you. If not, you're working from an inherently biased perspective.

I could take that link you posted which defends the validity of the Gospels (which I did read, btw) and take apart various aspects of it one by one (not all of it, mind you, but a lot of it...I'm simply not that versed in every aspect of Biblical history...just enough to know what I believe and why). But chances are you either wouldn't believe me, would form counter-points against me that are flawed but seem rational from your perspective, or would simply pass the evidence off as inconsequential. Seriously, be honest, if I offered a rock solid case against everything this guy says, would you de-convert? Doubtful.

Of course, I couldn't refute everything he says 100% (a lot though, most of which is in my earlier post). But others can, and have. All of it. Intelligent design, historical infallibility of the gospels, the entire moral base of the New and Old Testaments, the list goes on.

And so my earlier argument: I refuse to take part in a larger discussion when I realize it will go nowhere. It will be a Christian talking with an atheist, and it will be utterly fruitless. I've heard these arguments before, and you've likely heard the refutations. I posted a few earlier, and that's about it.

...

So please, don't presume to put words in my mouth. The bit about me not liking him because he had something truthful to say was particularly delicious...if I perceive an argument that I think is better than my own, I generally embrace it, not shun it.

And if you can't see that his entire presentation amounts to an attack on secularism and atheism, your head is too far in the clouds...it was personally offensive to me, and uncalled for, as I have yet to see atheists taking part in rallies to discuss the flaws of fundamentalist Christianity (there are atheist speakers, of course...but they generally debate and engage in talks/discussions, and don't have dedicated congregations following their every word without evidence). Stating your beliefs is one thing, engaging others in discussion about the merits/flaws of their views is also fine. But this was one-sided and unprovoked.

I have no doubt you're doing this for what you think are benevolent purposes ushome, so again I hesitate from directing any negative sentiments at you. I disagree with quite a bit about this thread, but it's still a public forum for religious discussion, so it's your prerogative to post such things. I replied with some counter-points for the sake of equality of views, and now hopefully we can lay this to rest.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes, we all knoe knowledge is evil: the devil is a snake, etc. Only for those that don't do the research and such.

chickenlover98
i do find it interesting ushome that it is never explained where god came from. nothing can just be.

Alliance
Originally posted by Nellinator
Only for those that don't do the research and such.

You mean only for those without knowledge eek

Its good to see you on consistantly again. We should throw sh*t at eachother.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Alliance


Sources:
Digimark007
Adam_POE

and debbie needs a sound card. lol

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
You mean only for those without knowledge eek

Its good to see you on consistantly again. We should throw sh*t at eachother. Like yourself?? teehee

Perhaps we should, it has been a while. However, consistency will probably fade again. There are so many recycled arguments it hurts the brain and then there are the wannabe experts (of wikipedia quoting).

ushomefree

Alliance
Originally posted by Nellinator
Like yourself?? teehee

Perhaps we should, it has been a while. However, consistency will probably fade again. There are so many recycled arguments it hurts the brain and then there are the wannabe experts (of wikipedia quoting).

But I don't recycle...or quote Wikipedia.

DigiMark007
"Why doesn't God need a creator?"

Theist: "Because God just is."

*slaps forehead*

Surely that can't seem logical to you. Simply imagining a creator that needs no creator isn't enough to make it true. Aquinas famously used causality to "prove" God (his Cosmological argument, also referred to as the Watchmaker argument), but offered no explanation for the cause of God, because Christians take that for granted. And if his entire being is "beyond time and physics" then it should also be logically impossible for him to affect time and physics. He'd be impotent to create or affect the universe (which it seems He is, since we have no evidence for otherworldly involvement in the development of the universe, though of course ID theorists would have you think otherwise).

ushomefree

chickenlover98
well i for one believe in multiple universes/dimensions. such tyhat in ne world you choose one thing in another you choose the other choice. so that there are infinite universes constantly splitting off everychoice we make. therefore i believe that one of em has a god in there. somewhere..........

but he just doesnt affect this one

chickenlover98
it wouldnt matter how simple the choice would be either, it could be just deciding to brush your teeth or not.

Nellinator
Originally posted by chickenlover98
well i for one believe in multiple universes/dimensions. such tyhat in ne world you choose one thing in another you choose the other choice. so that there are infinite universes constantly splitting off everychoice we make. therefore i believe that one of em has a god in there. somewhere..........

but he just doesnt affect this one Why? Prove it, then get back to me.

Hypocrite.

Alliance

DigiMark007

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
laughing out loud A troll do you reckon?

Alliance
i dunnoes.

just more baseles theories.

chickenlover98
nellinator i was stating one of my personal beliefs. im not forcing a theory upon you persay, more like introducing it. if you dont like it great. not my prob. not one of the things i can prove in anyway can i?

how bout this you prove the existance of god ill prove the existance of the multiverse. smile

Nellinator
Originally posted by chickenlover98
nellinator i was stating one of my personal beliefs. im not forcing a theory upon you persay, more like introducing it. if you dont like it great. not my prob. not one of the things i can prove in anyway can i?

how bout this you prove the existance of god ill prove the existance of the multiverse. smile Or how about we don't pretend that absence of proof is proof is absence and leave it at that?
Originally posted by Alliance
i dunnoes.

just more baseles theories. I think this could possibly have been a burn on many people. I am undecided.

chickenlover98
i actually am interested to hear what digi mark thinks of multiple universes theory. to bad hes not on sad

DigiMark007
^^ I have a fan.

stick out tongue to everyone else.

Anyway, I think it's a pretty far-fetched theory without some kind of empirical evidence supporting it. I've heard of it before, but it's nothing more than a theory until we have some way of testing it. Multiple universe theories that involve contraction of our current universe with multiple Big Bangs, or "bubble" universes forming inside black holes, at least have plausible explanations. Yours, at the moment, does not.

chickenlover98
o i am a fan. your logical and reasonable, a thing many people lack these days. also ur not a straight out dick like most of my friends.

of course my theory has no evidence. just a theory smile just sayin its possible

DigiMark007
Originally posted by chickenlover98
o i am a fan. your logical and reasonable, a thing many people lack these days. also ur not a straight out dick like most of my friends.

of course my theory has no evidence. just a theory smile just sayin its possible

Ok then, fair enough. Just be careful. It's ok to have a theory that seems interesting. But lots of things are possible, only a few theories are probable. Santa Claus is technically possible...but, well, I think you see where this example's going. People like to fall into the trap of believing things that are possible but not likely, simply because they are comforting or exciting. Most paranormal phenomenon (psychics, telekinetics, dowsing, remote viewing, etc.) and also many religions (and even scientific theories occasionally) can attribute their success to this.

chickenlover98
ya well, im just saying it would be interesting. i can think of a few wierd situations with that theory of mine. such as going into another universe where the only difference was brushing or not brushing your teeth. so that when yu go to the other universe the you from the parralel universe comes into yours and its the exact same place.

im slightly insane btw

DigiMark007
Originally posted by chickenlover98
ya well, im just saying it would be interesting. i can think of a few wierd situations with that theory of mine. such as going into another universe where the only difference was brushing or not brushing your teeth. so that when yu go to the other universe the you from the parralel universe comes into yours and its the exact same place.

im slightly insane btw

http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_032.htm

You might like this. There's about a dozen comics in the current story arc...it touches on a few of your whacked out idea while still being entertaining.

chickenlover98
well thanks for not agreeing with me being crazy. that helps my self esteem a lil bit

Nellinator
Originally posted by chickenlover98
well thanks for not agreeing with me being crazy. that helps my self esteem a lil bit It wasn't being crazy, I'd call it having an imagination. Too few people have one these days.

chickenlover98
why thank you. your too kind.

TheGodKiller
William Lane Craig : Wrong.

William Lame Crap : Correct.

Digi
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
William Lane Craig : Wrong.

William Lame Crap : Correct.

Lol. A necessary bump.

TheGodKiller
^This home-made cartoon parody video essentially sums what Craig is all about :
IFOTnBz-PCk

TheGodKiller
*Bump 2*
i_p78TodM14

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