Darth Bane vs Darth Vader

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S_W_LeGenD
The incarnations of characters:

- Orbalisk Bane
- OT Vader

Character Briefs:

- Orbalisk Bane: He is strong in the Force and a powerful and smart DLOTS. The orbalisk armor makes him stronger. He has a good command over Sith Lore and is also an exceptional saber duelist.

He uses Djem So.

- OT Vader: He is a master of the dark side of the Force. His cybernetic armor makes him physically very strong though not without weaknesses. He is a good saber duelist.

He uses Djem So and Dun Moch.

The place:

- Taris dueling chamber.

The fight:

- Fight type 1: Pure Saber duel
- Fight type 2: Pure Force contest
- Fight type 3: All out fight

Decide the winner...

Manslayer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


- Orbalisk Bane: He is strong in the Force and a powerful and smart DLOTS. The orbalisk armor makes him stronger. He has a good command over Sith Lore and is also an exceptional saber duelist.

True, the orbalisk makes him stronger and according to DSSB he is physically stronger than vader because of his armour.

However he is alot slower with the orbalisks because the DSSB states each scale weighs 1 kilogram and if you read legacy or NEGTC, every inch of his body is covered with orbalisks save for his face.
Add up the weight of those and bane will be very very heavy thus slowing him down.

Both are very strong in the force thought its safe to assume vader has higher mastery of the force as he studied under sidious longer and has greater strength in the force.

In a force fight it be very close. Either one of them will win and as far as im concerned i dont think theres a definitive winner yet.

For a lightsaber duel i see vader taking this. Though bane memorised all of kasims saber sequences, when kasim used a different style that is unpredictable to him, he became sloggish and nearly killed by kasim.

Vaders lightsaber form is described as very dangerous, very lethel and unpredictable in RODV which will give vader an upperhand.

An all out fight would be close too


So far i wont define a winner yet

darthsith19
1. Bane wins. Yes, the orbalisks slow him down, but the suit slows Vader down as well, and the Orbalisks give Bane loads of protection. While Vader has to protect his entire body, Bane merely has to protect his head, which is a big advantage.

2. Close one, Bane has his Force Destruction ability, Vader has Force Crush. It really depends on who fires which attack first, and also whether or not the Orbalisks will protect bane from getting crushed.

3. Bane wins, Force is close but Bane is superior in a saber duel. It won't be easy, though.

Darth Subjekt
Vader's suit protects him from light lightsaber attacks, but Bane has the better protection. From that ALONE I will say Bane beats Vader, but not easily.

Force - I will say Vader. He's a master who has learned from the best there is. Granted that doesn't guarantee him uber-ness, but that along with his natural ability does. Vader could pull the orbalisks off of Bane's body which would hurt like hell, weaken him some and open up more targets so to speak, but i guess that would go in the all out category.

All out - depends on if they keep it to force or sabers and if Vader can do what i said above. Vader likes to use the force coupled with his surroundings, so I'll lean towards Vader 70/100.

I'm not undermining bane's ability here, I think he would win in sabers, but Vader I think would take the force fight, and perhaps the all out.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Bane wins. Yes, the orbalisks slow him down, Orbalisks can be broken when hit harder and based on the evidence im leaning towards vader in a saber duel.

Orbalisks slow down bane tremendously because he has like what? 50-100 of them adding up to 80-100 kg extra weight?

And from what we have seen vader isnt as slow as what you think he is.

Bane got thrown off when he fought kasim because kasims saber form is unpredictable and rodv states that vaders form is very dangerous and at the same time unpredictable which gives vader the upperhand.

Only things bane has in advantage is his superior strength and orbalisks

This will be very close
Originally posted by darthsith19

2. Close one, Bane has his Force Destruction ability, Vader has Force Crush. It really depends on who fires which attack first, and also whether or not the Orbalisks will protect bane from getting crushed. Orbalisks wouldnt really protect you from the force that much, So just because bane has orbalisks does it mean no strong user can kill him?
Originally posted by darthsith19

3. Bane wins, Force is close but Bane is superior in a saber duel. It won't be easy, though. Vader uses his surroundings which is also a very big advantage and added to that his unpredictable saber form.

Im not saying this will be and easy fight seeing bane is close to vader in force mastery and skill in the force but however its my opinion vader wins

darthsith19
They have to be hit really hard. Bane is gigantic and he was unable to break them. Didin't The Rise of Darth Vader say that Bane is physically stronegr than Vader? Can't remmeber where I heard that, though, so maybe not.


50 to 100 is a huge range, and 50 to 100 means 50 to 100 kg, not 80 to 100. How much weight does Vader's armor add?



And how slow do I think he is?



Vader's forum also contains many elements from jem So, which Bane has mastered. While it is unpredictable, it isn't a completely unknown form fo Bane like Kas'im's was.



Did I say that? No, I didn't, and prove that they wouldn't protect you from the Force. You can't, because we don't know what would happen. To Force Crush bane the orbalisks would have to be crushed, too.



Well, they are in the Taris dueling chamber. I don't know how much stuff is in there that vader can use to his advantage.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
They have to be hit really hard. Bane is gigantic and he was unable to break them. Didin't The Rise of Darth Vader say that Bane is physically stronegr than Vader? Can't remmeber where I heard that, though, so maybe not. It was stated that bane is physically stronger than vader in DSSB and seeing vaders strength i dont think it would be that hard breaking them seeing that exar kun whom is physically inferior to vader could smash throuh mandalorian armour when he swung hardly

Originally posted by darthsith19

50 to 100 is a huge range, and 50 to 100 means 50 to 100 kg, not 80 to 100. How much weight does Vader's armor add?
Despite that it still slows down bane tremendously.

And it isnt the armour which is slowing down vader, its the mechanical limbs and its only four, it doesnt add much seeing he has performed acrobatic moves and fast enough speeds to face 3 jedi knights and kill them quickly.

Originally posted by darthsith19

And how slow do I think he is? Not you but them, many people think vader is uber super slow


Originally posted by darthsith19

Vader's forum also contains many elements from jem So, which Bane has mastered. While it is unpredictable, it isn't a completely unknown form fo Bane like Kas'im's was. And it is unknown to the many jedi vader fought because it doesnt purely follow the djem so sequence which bane memorised because it contains other steps and thus his customised form appears very different hence why it is dubbed unpredictable and very lethel.

Bane couldnt face his opponent who used an unpredictable form, while your right that it is completely unknown to him, vaders customised form was as well unknown to forte kulka and several other jedi he fought throughout his life


Originally posted by darthsith19

Did I say that? No, I didn't, and prove that they wouldn't protect you from the Force. You can't, because we don't know what would happen. To Force Crush bane the orbalisks would have to be crushed, too. Well vader popped a head when it was encased in an air tight sealed chest, Jollyjim gave me that link but i dont have it, it is possible to kill your opponent without crushing his armour but crushing his body inside but seeing that the orbalisks are stuck to his skin, it wouldnt work.

However vader can crush them and his body as yousaid because he wtfpwned a medical room when he gets angry and easily crushed the droids and metal in the interior of the medical room. While in purge we see that he is able to blow back a thick metallic blast door and bend it easily


Originally posted by darthsith19

Well, they are in the Taris dueling chamber. I don't know how much stuff is in there that vader can use to his advantage. Theres the chairs, the pillars etc, glass.

I think legend put this setting on purpose seeing that he doesnt like vader but vader did destroy a bridge in rodv, divert the waterfall flow and take down a massive tree larger than the pillar dooku brought down, Im pretty sure vader can take this due to his force mastery

darthsith19
Okay, we have noe established that bane is physically stronger than Vader, and that bane couldn't break the amulets. So why would Vsde be able to? For your Exar Kun analogy to work you would have to prove that mandalorian armor is equal to or stronger than orbalisks.

r

I'm pretty sure it is the armor. General Grievous has mechanical limbs but he could still swing his lightsabers 16 times per second.



Well, he is slow compared to Maul, Yoda, Sidious, ROTS Kenobi ect.



Yeah, but it does have a lot of Djem So in it. Those other Jedi either didn't master Djem So or just weren't as good as Bane.


I thought it was only described as unpredictable at the beginning of the book when he hadn't gotten used to the armor yet. And perhaps Forte didn't know Djem So.


metal is greatly inferior to orbalisks. Just because Vader can crush metal objects doesn't mean that he can crush orbalisks. Lightsaber can cut through metal like it's nothing, but not orbalisks.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, we have noe established that bane is physically stronger than Vader, and that bane couldn't break the amulets. So why would Vsde be able to? For your Exar Kun analogy to work you would have to prove that mandalorian armor is equal to or stronger than orbalisks. Mandalorian iron is lightsaber resistant just as the orbalisks are and is described as indestructable by TOTJ dlots. Ill have the check that one again


Originally posted by darthsith19

I'm pretty sure it is the armor. General Grievous has mechanical limbs but he could still swing his lightsabers 16 times per second. GG is fully metal thus he wouldnt have any limitations, Vader is mechanical and organic which does have many limitations,


Originally posted by darthsith19

Well, he is slow compared to Maul, Yoda, Sidious, ROTS Kenobi ect. This is true, im not denying that


Originally posted by darthsith19

Yeah, but it does have a lot of Djem So in it. Those other Jedi either didn't master Djem So or just weren't as good as Bane.
This is not the case, it wasnt described as unpredictable just because it has djem so in it but because it is a completely unknown style that nobody had used before and also due tot he fact it didnt compramise of one style but several styles.

It is highly unlikely forte doesnt know the djem so stance seeing that soresu,djem so and ataru are used by MANY jedis during the kotor era, TOTJ and clone wars era so your point that they dont know djem so holds no water
Originally posted by darthsith19

I thought it was only described as unpredictable at the beginning of the book when he hadn't gotten used to the armor yet. And perhaps Forte didn't know Djem So.
It was described as unpredictable when he fought forte and kulka not when he fought chatak, He fought alot better and different during his fight with forte when compared to chatak
Originally posted by darthsith19

metal is greatly inferior to orbalisks. Just because Vader can crush metal objects doesn't mean that he can crush orbalisks. Lightsaber can cut through metal like it's nothing, but not orbalisks. But the point is vader pwned a medical room at all, and his force crush isnt doing to break the orbalisks, its going to get pushed inwards to his body thus crushing bane.

Ok let me make it a little bit more clear for you, You know the royal medieval armour chainmail right? If a very large force is applied to the user wearing the chainmail, the user is going to get killed weather or not the chainmal breaks.

What im saying is the force crush will push in the orbalisks along with banes flesh because his armour isnt just 1 solid orbalisks, its many of them embedded on his flesh and using the force to push them inwards with his flesh using force crush wouldnt be hard seeing vaders force mastery , the orbalisks wouldnt have to be broken for a force attack to work on bane, If not bane would be invincible right? If not njo wouldnt be able to kill him right?

darthsith19
Yes, however, just because each is described as being lightsaber resistent, that doesn't mean that they are resistent to the same level.



I don't understand how that is different. Why would mechanical and organic be any different from just mechanical? I thought it was the machine parts that slowed Vader down (according to you) but the machine parts didn't slow Grievous down.




It is a stlye nobody ahs used before, however, it has elements from otehr forums, particularly Djem So, which bane has mastered. Point is, it will not be as unknown to Bane as Kas'ims' dual sabers form was.


Yes, I am certain that Forte knows of Djem So, but that doesn't eman he has amstered or even uses it. Somebody who has amstered it will know it far betetr than somebody who just knows of it.




But you said "but seeing that the orbalisks are stuck to his skin, it wouldnt work." Bane's body won't be crushed it the orbalisks don't get crushed, imagine Bane standing there and suddenly his body gets condensed, the Orbalisks would get puleld off. Maybe Vader can pull them off, but it's going to be hard to pull off the OPrbalsiks while avoiding Bane's lightsaber, Force Destruction and otehr Force abilities.



Because the chaimmail will get crushed with the body. It might not break, but it will crush.




So the Orbalisks would be pushed into Bane, huh? That might work, but then bane won't just be standing there, he will be atatcking Vader with saber or Force, too. I just think Bane will be able to win. Even if it doesn't work, yes, NJO Luke could kill Bane. He is so much better with a lightsaber that he could just go for Bane's head and win. He could block everything Bane throws at him. He could atatck Bane's head and win. No way Bane would beat NJO Luke.

Count Makashi
1- 50/50 chance, maybe a slight edge for Bane

2- Vader, His Force Mastery is higher then Banes, studied under the most powerful Sith Lord ever for 20 years...

3- Vader, can hold his own in a saber fight, better Force powers, knows about Bane, while Vader is a complete mystery for Bane, smarter fighter...

vader11
1. Probably bane but close.
2. Very close, I lean on vader.
3. Depends.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, however, just because each is described as being lightsaber resistent, that doesn't mean that they are resistent to the same level.
But mandalorian iron is described as unbreakable and indestructable. Orbalisks are only described as highly resistant

Originally posted by darthsith19

I don't understand how that is different. Why would mechanical and organic be any different from just mechanical? I thought it was the machine parts that slowed Vader down (according to you) but the machine parts didn't slow Grievous down.
Because Just about every part of GG is metallic thus he does not have any limitations unlike vader


Originally posted by darthsith19

It is a stlye nobody ahs used before, however, it has elements from otehr forums, particularly Djem So, which bane has mastered. Point is, it will not be as unknown to Bane as Kas'ims' dual sabers form was.
It isnt the djem so which will throw bane off, its the other elements combined with it making a new and completely unknown form, thats why so many jedi couldnt face vader in a strait saber duel and thats where he got arrogant imo.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes, I am certain that Forte knows of Djem So, but that doesn't eman he has mastered or even uses it. Somebody who has amstered it will know it far betetr than somebody who just knows of it. Forte doesnt have to master djem so to even know its sequence, The point is vaders form DOES NOT follow the djem so sequence because it isnt just a djem so form, its a form which compramises of other forms thus making it a very different custamised form.

And bane memorised the djem so sequence, when kasim used a different style with different sequences, bane gets shitted. And vader will employ this style of his where the sequence doesnt follow djem so.

Before you ask, prove that his form follows the djem so sequence



Originally posted by darthsith19

But you said "but seeing that the orbalisks are stuck to his skin, it wouldnt work." Bane's body won't be crushed it the orbalisks don't get crushed, imagine Bane standing there and suddenly his body gets condensed, the Orbalisks would get puleld off. Maybe Vader can pull them off, but it's going to be hard to pull off the OPrbalsiks while avoiding Bane's lightsaber, Force Destruction and otehr Force abilities. It would hurt like hell to get orbalisks ripped out of your skin, and bane will be concentrating more on the pain than trying to kill his opponent




Originally posted by darthsith19

Because the chaimmail will get crushed with the body. It might not break, but it will crush. You see, take a sledge hammer and beat the chainmail knight, the knight wearing the chainmail dies but the chainmail itself is undamaged.

The point is orbalisks are like chainmail, if you apply pressure on it and the user, the user dies, nothing happens to the orbalisks.



Originally posted by darthsith19

So the Orbalisks would be pushed into Bane, huh? That might work, but then bane won't just be standing there, he will be atatcking Vader with saber or Force, too.
Well when vader applys force crush bane would be immobalised thus not being able to do anything, Crush is an attack where the outline of your body gets pushed inwards by the force.

However like i said, bane is pretty strong too and i wouldnt say vader wins this easy.

If bane wins a force fight, it is only due to lightning
Originally posted by darthsith19

I just think Bane will be able to win. Even if it doesn't work, yes, NJO Luke could kill Bane. He is so much better with a lightsaber that he could just go for Bane's head and win. He could block everything Bane throws at him. He could atatck Bane's head and win. No way Bane would beat NJO Luke. Luke can still kill bane weather he aims at banes head or not.

darthsith19
Well whatever describes mandalorian iron as unbreakable and indestructable has been contradicted by TotJ then, hasn't it.



Again, I don't understand why all robot is faster than robot + flesh.




Yes, the otehr elements may throw Bane off, but not to the extent that Kas'im's completely new dual sabers did, that's all I'm saying.



And I'm agreeing that it isn't Djem So, but it contains a lot of Djem So. It is pretty much a modified / specilized version of Djem So.



Agreed, but then we don't know if Vader can pull them off, let alone pull them off while Vader is attacking him.



Chainmail is light armor, it won't protect you from heavy blows - obviously, a lightsaber could slice right through chainmail, and it won't stop bullets or a lot of things, it is just light protection. It's completely different from orbalisks.



I know, I was saying if the Orbalisks blocked all Force attacks, NJO Luke would still be able to kill Bane.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Manslayer
Because Just about every part of GG is metallic
You must have seen ROTS, right?

GG have living organs inside his body.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
Well whatever describes mandalorian iron as unbreakable and indestructable has been contradicted by TotJ then, hasn't it. Wasn't that stated by totj itself? The point is any lightsaber can destroy your precious banes orbalisks, get over it


Originally posted by darthsith19

Again, I don't understand why all robot is faster than robot + flesh.
Because it does not have limitations where vader does, for fcuks sake cant you get this in your head?


Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes, the otehr elements may throw Bane off, but not to the extent that Kas'im's completely new dual sabers did, that's all I'm saying. The point is bane didnt know kasims form as it did not follow the sequences he memorised


Originally posted by darthsith19

And I'm agreeing that it isn't Djem So, but it contains a lot of Djem So. It is pretty much a modified / specilized version of Djem So. And the fact is that it does not follow the djem so sequence which bane memorised and along with that it is described as lethel and unpredictable, And when it doesnt follow a sequence bane has remembered, it throws his off completely.

That itself is stated by the omniscient narrator.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Agreed, but then we don't know if Vader can pull them off, let alone pull them off while Vader is attacking him. And it isnt beyond his abilities to do so seeing his mastery in the force and the fact that he could rip a thick blast door and send it flying. It would be even easier ripping out an object embedded in some ones flesh


Originally posted by darthsith19

Chainmail is light armor, it won't protect you from heavy blows - obviously,
And orbalisks wont protect you from the force
Originally posted by darthsith19

a lightsaber could slice right through chainmail, Was that the claim? I was using a metaphor and you blatantly fail to even try to understand it,

The point is bane will get effected by force attacks even with the orbalisks

Originally posted by darthsith19

and it won't stop bullets or a lot of things, it is just light protection. It's completely different from orbalisks. Seethe above

Originally posted by darthsith19


I know, I was saying if the Orbalisks blocked all Force attacks, NJO Luke would still be able to kill Bane. Firstly prove that orbalisks block out force attacks. DSSB only stated that it is highly resistant to lightsaber attacks

darthsith19
I don't know, if it was, then totj contradicted itself. They can be destroyed by a lightsaber, but not by Vader. Bane is physically stronger than Vader, and he couldn't break them so yeah, maybe Glaive could break them, but not Vader.



No, because it doesn't make sense. I say the suit is what slows down Vader. You say it is because he is flesh mixed with robot. You can't just say flesh plus robot is slower than plain robot without proof.




wtf? What does that have to do with anything? How was that the point you were making at all? What the f**k?



No, it is still a variant of Djem So, what can't you understand about that? Being unpredictable and not having Djem So in it aren't the same thing. Bane mastered many of the moves that Vader uses.









An object, maybe, but, as you said yourself, Bane has 50-100 orbalisks.




Because it was a terrible metaphor, seeing as comparing chainmail and orbalisk armor is like comparing a butter knife to a lightsaber.



That is unknown, actually.



Bane is about three times the size of Luke physically so Luke couldn't cut through the orbalisks. And wtf, it was you in the first place who brought up orbalisks blocking Force attacks.





You obviously don't understand, if you had read what I responded to you would know that I was responding to your IF. And we don't know if orbalisks can block the Force. I was saying you are wrong and that even IF orbalisks ccould block the Force NJO Luke would still beat Bane.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
I don't know, if it was, then totj contradicted itself. They can be destroyed by a lightsaber, but not by Vader. Bane is physically stronger than Vader, and he couldn't break them so yeah, maybe Glaive could break them, but not Vader.
Prove vader cant break them seeing that he is physically strong and physically weaker opponents such as kun could break through mandalorian iron

Originally posted by darthsith19

No, because it doesn't make sense. I say the suit is what slows down Vader. You say it is because he is flesh mixed with robot. You can't just say flesh plus robot is slower than plain robot without proof. Since you wont listen, i wont bother brining up this point seeing that it is irrelevant to the fight. Again the bottomline is bane + the orbalisks is heavier and slower than vader



Originally posted by darthsith19

wtf? What does that have to do with anything? How was that the point you were making at all? What the f**k?
The fact that bane could only effectively counter his opponents move when he memorsises the saber sequence and the fact that vader does not follow the djem so sequence seems to utterly destroy the your claim that bane can counter vader

Originally posted by darthsith19

No, it is still a variant of Djem So, what can't you understand about that?
Though it being a variant of djem so, it doesnt follow the pure djem so sequence which bane has memorised.

Because if it completely follows the djem so sequence then it would be pure djem so wouldn't it? It wouldn't be called a variant wouldn't it?



It doesnt follow a sequence bane remembers what can't you understand about that?
Originally posted by darthsith19

Being unpredictable and not having Djem So in it aren't the same thing. Bane mastered many of the moves that Vader uses. Again whats your point? Being unpredictable in saber duel simply meaning your opponent cant predict what your going to do next.

And vaders variant of djem so doesnt follow the djem so sequence hence why it has been dubbed unpredictable in a situation where all his opponents couldnt predict what is his next move because it does not follow a sequence they recognise








Originally posted by darthsith19

An object, maybe, but, as you said yourself, Bane has 50-100 orbalisks. And it isnt beyond vaders ability to pull out several objects at once either unless you want to prove vader cant do it seeing he could rip everything out of a bridge at once and flung a never ending barrage to roan



Originally posted by darthsith19

Because it was a terrible metaphor, seeing as comparing chainmail and orbalisk armor is like comparing a butter knife to a lightsaber. The fact weather chainmail is as hard as orbalisk is completely not the point, See? You take things out of context and actually fail what i was trying to interpret.

The fact weather you wear chainmail, orbalisks, bullet proof vests or a medieval chest plate, A very big force applied onto the wearer will be enough to kill him without even breaking the armour.

Take a huge sledgehammer and beat it with full force against a swat officer, the impact is great enough to severely injure the wearer due to the pressure that the impact created, prehaps strong enough to even kill him


Originally posted by darthsith19

That is unknown, actually.
It is actually, You see? Your indirectly claiming bane may be immune to force strikes because he wears orbalisks without proof, The fact that no sources say so = bane CAN get effected by the force, Time for you to accept this and move on with life.

No where it states that orbalisks are force resistant, DSSB, wookiepedia, no where.

So yes the force can effect bane with the orbalisks



Originally posted by darthsith19

Bane is about three times the size of Luke physically so Luke couldn't cut through the orbalisks. And wtf, it was you in the first place who brought up orbalisks blocking Force attacks. Thats because of this :
Originally posted by darthsith19

nd also whether or not the Orbalisks will protect bane from getting crushed. So no, i only responded to that




Originally posted by darthsith19

You obviously don't understand, if you had read what I responded to you would know that I was responding to your IF. And we don't know if orbalisks can block the Force. I was saying you are wrong and that even IF orbalisks ccould block the Force NJO Luke would still beat Bane. Theres nothing to imply that orbalisks can block the force so no point speculating

darthsith19
As stated before, that is terrible logic. There is no way that logic will work until mandalorian armor is proven to be equal to or greater than Orbalisks. However, we do have absolute proof that Bane is physically stronger than Vader and that Bane couldn't break through the orbalisks. Which part about that don't you understand?



I am listening, it just doesn't make any sense, and you have not proven that robot is faster than robot + flesh. Prove that bane with Orbalisks is either heavier or slower than Vader. You can't just make a statement like that without proof.




Bane has beaten people in the dueling ring before, did he master all the moves of those people's saber forms? How about Sirak's buddies, Bane fought them did he master their moves? No, prove that Bane can only win when he knows all of his opponents moves.




Have you read PoD? Sequences don't matter.



So then how did ANH Kenobi match Vader? How did Maul put up such a great fight against him? bane is superior to Maul and ANH kenobi with a blade. He will beat Vader in saber combat.







Simply throwing objects at somebody isn't the same as pulling all the orbalisks off a person at once, and several objects isn't the same as 50 - 100 objects. Plus he would have to do it while blocking other attacks from Bane.




Point taken. If the death star shot Bane it would kill him right through the orbalisks, you are correct.



Just wait for the next bane novel to be released. Bane is greater than Vader.





The cover of PoD says that Bane is stronger than the entire Brotherhood of Darkness combined. He can beat Vader.

Manslayer
Originally posted by darthsith19
As stated before, that is terrible logic. There is no way that logic will work until mandalorian armor is proven to be equal to or greater than Orbalisks. However, we do have absolute proof that Bane is physically stronger than Vader and that Bane couldn't break through the orbalisks. Which part about that don't you understand? The thing is it doesnt matter weather it equals to mandalorian armour or not, All im proving here is that orbalisks can be broken, because DSSB states than it is highly resisant not immune. Get over it darthsith, anybody can break orbalisks if they hit hard enough because no where it states that orbalisks are immune to saber strikes,


Originally posted by darthsith19

Prove that bane with Orbalisks is either heavier or slower than Vader. You can't just make a statement like that without proof. Wait i havnt proved how robot is faster than robot + flesh? GG is alot more agile than vader is apparantly, Even lumiya with prosthetic limbs is slower than GG.

And one thing darth sith, You ALWAYS ask for prove when you have yet to prove up. Firstly having 100 extra kilograms of weight IS going to slow you down, Its pure common sense, i dont have to get evidence to prove that beause IF i DO need to do that for your sake:

1) You lack common sense
2) You are an idiot

Now we have seen vader throughout his life, He isnt slow, He Isnt as heavy as bane seeing that despite being in his suit, he still can perform acrobatics as he did in RODV, Purge, Empire betrayel when he used the force to fly and cut a piece of debris.



Originally posted by darthsith19

Bane has beaten people in the dueling ring before, did he master all the moves of those people's saber forms? How about Sirak's buddies, Bane fought them did he master their moves? No, prove that Bane can only win when he knows all of his opponents moves. Thank you darthsith, You had just backed up my statement. Bane can beat an opponent when he knows all of his moves and sadly bane does not know vaders custamised form sequence which will then make bane wonder what is vaders make move as he did to kasim and in the end get tooled



Originally posted by darthsith19

Have you read PoD? Sequences don't matter. It does, Ill hand you your ass with this quote

Even his enormous command of the force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two handed fighting style


Now, he is unfamiliar to the sequences of the jar kai style because he had not seen it before, Its the same for vaders case, he doesnt know the sequence that vader goes through


Originally posted by darthsith19

So then how did ANH Kenobi match Vader? How did Maul put up such a great fight against him? bane is superior to Maul and ANH kenobi with a blade. He will beat Vader in saber combat. Wasn't kenobi described as one of the orders greatest swordsman? And the fact that before their ANH encounter they have been through thousands of sparring practises before their duel on mustafar?

And also that maul is simply the better dueler than vader? As various sources pointed out? That he pushes his body and style beyond the limits







Originally posted by darthsith19


Simply throwing objects at somebody isn't the same as pulling all the orbalisks off a person at once, and several objects isn't the same as 50 - 100 objects. Plus he would have to do it while blocking other attacks from Bane. Again you fail to notice vader has ripped metal from metal, something much harder to do than ripping out objects from flesh and he did that to metal very quickly in the purge.

Did you even bother to read my posts? Or are you trying to satisfy your egos? And how is bane going to attack when he is concentrating on the pain vader is inflicting? Vader pulling off those orbalisks which causes tremendous pain, that itself would effect banes performance.

And why would vader even need to pull off the orbalisks? A wearer with the orbalisks still can get killed by the force



Originally posted by darthsith19

Point taken. If the death star shot Bane it would kill him right through the orbalisks, you are correct. Because it his highly resistant not immune and any body who has hit hard enough can break it, this has been proven numerous times in the past when acstyles, lightsnake and subjeckt were argueing with nebaris



Originally posted by darthsith19

Just wait for the next bane novel to be released. Bane is greater than Vader. Prove it. Bane is greater than vader in accomplishes? Certeinly but power as of now? No

Oh and when the force unleashed comes out, vader is going to be even more powerful than bane seeing that his inferior apprentice can pull star destroyers out of the sky



Originally posted by darthsith19


The cover of PoD says that Bane is stronger than the entire Brotherhood of Darkness combined. He can beat Vader. And lucas states PT jedi > Kotor era and > brother hood of darkness.

Along with that sidious states among the tens and thousands of jedi knights, most of them are not even half of what vader is

Manslayer
Bane has beaten people in the dueling ring before, did he master all the moves of those people's saber forms? How about Sirak's buddies, Bane fought them did he master their moves? No, prove that Bane can only win when he knows all of his opponents moves.


^. My my i misread that,

Did he master those forms? No, Did he remember their sequences when he sparred with kasim because he demonstrated all the sequences? Yes!

Proteus
Manslayer, you're undeniably mad. Trying to put Vader's slightly unfamiliar form in the same light as Kas'im's, which consisted of every single move and sequence there is for all 7 forms of lightsaber combat which was said to be numbered in the millions, and which was completely unfamiliar to Bane is crazy.

As for the battle, Bane shits on Vader.

Darth Subjekt
Sabers he'd win, not shit on him, and in the force, Vader takes it. What's Bane gonna do? Z0mG pull th3 moon on him 2 kill him!!!1!!111!!!

Proteus
Bane absolutely outclasses him in the force. Using strength in the force attributed as being greater than that of hundreds of force users combined (Source: inside flap of PoD), and utilising that strength with force control that was adequate in directing power strong enough to wipe out an entire planet without getting blown apart in the process, he'd absolutely demolish Vader.

It's actually probably closer in saber combat. Technique wise Bane's somewhat lacking.

Darth Subjekt
Only reason Vader would lose in sabers is his lack of mobility, although his custom style makes up for lack of agility. Physically, I'd say they're pretty close in strength, given Bane being a "mound of muscle" enhanced with the orbalisks, and Vader's mechanical, robotic enhancements.

Vader's agility is the only hindrance I see here. And he is incredibly intelligent and would certainly put up an extremely tough fight to anyone to include Bane. I just can't prove that he'd win, so I say that Bane would. On paper, he has more going for him, although that doesn't ensure a victory.

The force now...you have to be joking right? You would have to prove that Bane is at least 80% of ROTJ Sidious, which is what Vader became. So pure, raw talent and abilities coupled with being taught be the greatest, most powerful Sith lord in history, and Vader is ahead of Bane. Are you referring to the thought bomb? If so, that has no bearing on offensive force techniques or abilities, it just showed immunity to a certain attack. Yoda showed the ability to counter lightning, but didn't have the techniques to kill Sidious via the force.

Same thing here. Just cause he can protect himself X, doesn't mean he can perform Y and Z to take out someone the likes of Vader.

Proteus
Along with his inferior strength in the force, inferior non-force aided strength, inferior non-force aided speed, and the healing abilities and protection that the orbalisks provide.



I would probably agree with all of that.



Given his power was stated as being greater than that of the entire BoD, I'd say Bane could be well stronger than Palpatine in the force. His incredible displays despite his lack of age and experience in comparison would certainly suggest as much. Either way, nothing indicates that Palpatine (and thus, the weaker Vader) are on that level in force potential, so the burden of proof is on you.



Firstly, all the evidence points to Bane being stronger in the force as explained above. Neither Sidious or Vader have displayed anything to make one believe that they possess the power equivalent to that of hundreds combined, and by comparing their learning rate which is very much correlated to strength in the force, Bane has either beat by a large margin.

Secondly, you really want to compare Vader's talent to Bane's. LMAO!! The guy was only capable of mastering force lightning in less than an hour, and an entire holocron's worth of sith rituals in a few days. Vader doesn't come close to Bane, talent wise.

Thirdly, you label Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, which is quite a claim to make. Could I have some proof? I'd certainly put Exar and Nihilus above him personally.

Finally, since when does powerful force user equate to powerful teacher? That's a ridiculous notion to make. You'd firstly have to consider the fact that it's very likely that Palpatine held Vader back; he's certainly never produced anything which would suggest that he was being taught some extraordinary stuff in terms of knowledge, and we know that it's the way of a Sith Master to hold back their students so that they would never become powerful enough to challenge them. Burden of proof is again on you.

Really... Silly, silly argument.



I was referring to the storm like ritual that Bane and the BoD performed. The entire BoD focused their power through Bane (Bane also appears to have been draining them), and Bane directed all of their power onto Ruusan. The attack was described as consuming everything in its path, and was said to eventually destroy the whole of Ruusan. Now before you point out that the power wasn't entirely Bane's, I know that, I'm just pointing out his exceptional control and mastery over the force.

Lightsnake
Proof Palpatine is above Bane? Can we start with the New Essential Chronology, or move on to Heritage of the Sith? Or The Dark Side Sourcebook, or the DE sourcebook?

All of which firmly establish him as either the most powerful and/or most powerful in over a thousand years-that includes Bane.

Proteus
I have most of those sources, and am pretty sure that they in no way do anything like that. Not believing it until I see it. Though I would think that Palpatine would be more powerful than Bane personally, given his vastly superior knowledge and experience as well as his showings. Not Exar or Nihilus though.

Gideon
Here are a few, Proteus.

Courtesy of the Dark Empire Sourcebook:



Courtesy of the Complete Visual Dictionary:

Proteus
First Quote: While I'll admit that that's a pretty nice quote, it's hardly as cut and dry as what Lightsnake had me to believe (if that is something he was referring to). You have to firstly consider that Darth Sidious is the only sith thus far seen to truly excel at using the darkside with subtlety (examples: his ability with force concealment, the shroud of the darkside that weakened the Jedi Order as a whole, his ritual that make the darkside within Anakin Skywalker stronger, granting his minions with abilities) and while they are indeed extremely impressive, it hardly fully correlates with combat prowess, which is what Sith like Nihilus and Exar excelled at. Also, not many Sith would choose to tame the darkside. Taming the darkside, by definition, would be toning it down; something not many sith would wish.

Second quote: Well he was the greatest. He achieved what all Sith truly dreamed to achieve, that is the destruction of the Jedi and dominant control over the Galaxy. But, greatness in no way equates to power.

Gideon
'Taming the dark side', by definition, would translate to harnessing it and controlling it, something Sith Lords endeavour to do all throughout their history. While I could understand Exar Kun excelling at "combat", I'd like for you to prove that Nihilus managed such specifications. On a whole, Sidious was the strongest with the dark side. Stronger than Kun or Nihilus. That, to me, would qualify for "most powerful" rather than combat skill. Even though there's nothing to say that Kun is superior to Sidious in direct combat.



This quote was issued in the beginning of the AotC edition. There was no war. No Empire. The Republic was still operating. I have a hard time believing that Sidious getting himself elected somehow outclasses the achievements made by those such as Bane, Kun, and Revan.

Lightsnake
Don't even go there and use some logic and reasoning skills. He's mentioned as most powerful in a direct reference to his power in combat. Exar also tried to use trickery and subtlety...Palpatine also DID excel with combat (maul's Journal, killing three Jedi Masters in seconds, etc.)

With the Sith? Greatness DOES equate to power? Weak Sith don't achieve anything...they fail or die. They don't see weaklings as 'great', certainly not 'greatest.'

And 'taming' the Darkside means 'mastering' it, which ALL Sith strive to do.

His feats also crush Exar's and Nihilus's into the dirt. As far as power goes, power has meant power in the force in regards to SW....To say 'Oh, it refers to something ELSE' spits on Occam's Razor, especially taking it in regards to combat.

Want 'combat prowess?' See 'tracing somebody's outline with a lightsaber so fast a single involuntary twitch would leave him (Maul) in pieces)

Or reducing three Sith acolytes to charred bones. Or Heritage of the Sith, which says he was the culmination of Sith Power. In the Force, Palp>Bane, and Exar and pretty much any other Sith.

Darth Subjekt
Also, after not touching a lightsaber for 13 years he killed 3 of the order's finest swordsmen in a matter of sheer seconds. He forced Mace into a retreat temporarily, and stalemated Yoda overall. That's pretty impressive.
And this was only by ROTS; I'm sure as his strength in the force grew, so did his ability to perform deadly force attacks.

His force storm can take out entire fleets...that's pretty big.

Proteus
Don't be narrow minded. Ignore the entire concept of 'taming' something all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that when you tame something, you tone down its destructive nature. If you honestly think someone like Nihilus would in any way choose to do such a thing, you're crazy. Same applies to Exar, though not to as great a degree.



Nihilus is a funny case. He doesn't really focus on anything. He just devours anything in his path. Kind of like an exogorth. However, in terms of what I'm arguing, which is who would be better equipped to win a fight, the same would apply to Nihilus.



I still haven't seen absolute proof for this, as of yet. Though, and as you've also acknowledged, simply having greater power doesn't always mean you are better equipped to win in a combat situation.



I would think so. His four thousand year old force spirit (and all evidence points to Kun in his real form being infinitely more powerful) was capable of dishing out a hell of a lot of power. In his true form, he was capable of draining thousands of Massassi effortlessly, freezing tens of thousands of beings effortlessly, and he pretty much owned at everything he did. His very steps were said to make the ground tremble. I'm actually very confidant in saying that excluding the Skywalker line, he may have had the greatest potential out of any force user there is. Hell, he even appears to have been some kind of sith chosen one.



Could the quote may not have been referencing a time in the future? It would be like someone inside the SW universe -- let's say a historian -- was giving a lecture on Palpatine, and said something like "The Greatest Dark lord of the Sith in the entire Republic's History was born in ." What's attributed to Palpatine is something he gained at a later time, yet it's given while speaking of an earlier date. Is that possible in this context? If it's not too much trouble, could I actually have maybe the entire passage? Either way, I'm really too tired at this moment to go into detail, but there are many things that the quote could be in reference to; it's hardly conclusive.

Lightsnake
Generally because nobody in that era could hold a candle to Yoda, Luke or Palpatine.

He didn't drain them...the obelisk he's chained to did and they offered their lives...and Palpatine was capable of mindwiping the entire Imperial city and controlling every being in the imperial fleet.



Yeah? We saw him walking...where's the trembling?

Please. IF the Sith had a 'Chosen One', it's Palpatine.



That's ridiculous. There's NOTHING indicating this. It just says that in regards to present times-AOTC

Sorry, no. Prove up, provide ANY evidence.

"He is the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith Power'
What you suggest has no-I repeat, NO- backing. It's present tense

Stop making things up to twist it into your opinion and give way to canon and fact

Gideon
Accusing me of being narrow minded is all well and good, Proteus, but it can't change the facts. Sadly, you've only listed one possible definition of taming. Given the context of the statement, taming is synonymous with mastey and domestication. You're suggesting that Sidious somehow "toned down" the destructive nature of the Force, which is a tall claim, and would require proof -- especially since Sidious is responsible for the application of some of the most destructive Force techniques ever used. I'm afraid that logic isn't with you on this one.



You've, again, yet to provide any proof. You made the claim that Darth Nihilus is combat oriented. You're now rerouting your claim and making it that Nihilus would be better equipped to win in a fight, which -- again -- you've yet to prove.





^ That is the claim that Lightsnake and I are addressing. Power. Not combat oriented skill (though, in any case, you've yet to prove Kun or Nihilus are better). We've proven Palpatine is more powerful and now you want to make the issue about who would win in a fight.



Palpatine drained Byss for years, sustaining his health -- which was compromised due to the raw dark side energies within him. He could create Force Storms, "capable of demolishing fleets and tearing the surfaces off worlds". He could destroy lightsabers by gesturing, shrug off a "ton of machinery" dead weight that Leia Skywalker dropped on his head. According to the audio sourcebook, during his fight with Luke, Palpatine generated dark side waves that killed nearby Imperial units. I could just as well say that Palpatine "owned at everything he did", which is unsubstantiated, much like your claim with Kun. This is ignoring the fact that Palpatine's mere presence unbalanced the Force and emitted a shroud over the Jedi that dulled their senses and precognition.



I don't have my copy of the Dictionary on hand, but I've posted the quote numerous times. If you'd like, I'll do my best to hunt for the whole thing for you.

Proteus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't even go there and use some logic and reasoning skills.

I can see why you wouldn't want me to 'go there and use some logic and reasoning skills.'



That's great, any moron can claim random shit, but until I see quotes and the like, which Gideon has been kind enough to provide, I'm not believing any of this.



To the same degree as Palpatine? No way, that only truly started with Bane's Ro2 lineage.



Never said he didn't, but to the degree that Exar did? Or Nihilus? Or Nadd? Highly doubt it.



How elaborate. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Very nice. Nihilus was able to play around with someone who could effortlessly do the same.



Are you asking me or are you telling me? If you're telling me, you're wrong. It doesn't matter that they're sith, greatness is always measured through achievements. It speaks for intelligence more than anything else, when looking at the achievements in question.



Those are some very black and white statements there, and even if they're true, it's not necessarily because they're weak that they fail or that they're viewed as such.



No, it means that you tone down its destructive nature. Assuming otherwise displays a clear lack of understanding of the english language.



They really don't. I've already mentioned some of Exar's, and Nihilus? The guy that can drain millions of force sensitive beings effortlessly in what can be deduced as a very short amount of time is more effective than Palpatine is in a hypothetical versus match. hell, we don't even know if Palpatine has a defence to Nihilus' ability.



You seem to misunderstood the argument, what I was saying, and what Gideon agrees with, is that power in the force isn't directly proportional to effectiveness in combat.



Not that such was being said, you're clearly wrong. It's up to the people who put forth these quotes to fully explain them. Aside from that, it's a very narrow minded approach to automatically assume that power always refers to combat prowess. As far as power goes in Star Wars, military and personal combat situations both appear as frequently as the other. You're arguing this in a very illogical manner.



Oh wow, a force user possessing great precision, I'm impressed. I guess AotC Anakin Skywalker is a god then, giving he displays precision in pretty much its most extreme form when slicing that poisonous creature off of Padme.



Which is clearly not beyond people like Exar and Nihilus. In case I wasn't clear, I'm not denying that Sidious is extremely powerful, or even one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, but I just don't see him as being the most powerful, and nothing you've said has swayed me in any way. Really, nothing you've said is beyond people like Exar, Nadd or Nihilus.



Could I have a quote? You strike me as the type to make these things up.



You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

Darth Hord
What in the world has Nadd done to be even mentioned with Sidious? We don't know how powerful he was when he was alive. All we know is stuff he did when he was a spirit and they may be impressive but his opponents were either not at their prime or weren't the starwars elite.

Proteus
Well you see, when someone is a powerhouse in a state that is described as 'powerless' in comparison, it means that when said person was in their more powerful state, they = powerhouse x infinity.

Gideon
Well, I'm off. I'll be back later. Good luck, folks.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Proteus


I can see why you wouldn't want me to 'go there and use some logic and reasoning skills.'
Two separate thoughts.
See? Logic and reasoning. Use 'em


"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith of all time."
Or something to the effect.


Considering the Jedi Order was still recovering 40 years later, seems he did a decent job



Name one point where they were described as moving faster than the eye can see


It's a book. I was giving you the source.




Were any of those three mentioned as among the best in history? Didn't think so



Proof. Now. Ragnos is mentioned as 'great', yet what were his accomplishments? No expansion...no conquest...hmmmmmm



Being defensive now is just sad.
Show some evidence or drop the speculation



No, it means you 'master' it. Especially when Palpatine's force storm was stated to be, and I quote "The most destructive display of Dark Side power in galactic history.'



Considering he knows Nihilus's ability and can drain billions-I assume a core world has way more population density than Katarr...



It's a good thing Palpatine's got both traits, then.



I want evidence. Proof. NOW. Anything that supports your position "-b-b-b-b-but political power" in the context makes zero sense.
Try again.


Now, WHY would this be mentioned in having to do with LIGHTSABER ABILITY?
Geez, ignorance really is bliss...name me a time when Exar wielded his sword faster than a trained force user could see to the point where the slightest twitch would kill the person



Gee. I really don't care what you see. I care about what's fact.
When did Nadd or Exar destroy a fleet? Drain billions? Create storms across planets? Reduce force sensitives to charred bones?

Mentioned in numerous sources as 'most powerful'
Oh, I forgot the Dark Empire sources that establishes him as the most powerful as well...'the most powerful Sith who has ever lived has returned.'

I gave you the source. It's not my problem if you're too ignorant to know it.



And you're wrong. Show evidence, or get out of my sight.

Manslayer
Originally posted by Proteus
Manslayer, you're undeniably mad. Trying to put Vader's slightly unfamiliar form in the same light as Kas'im's, which consisted of every single move and sequence there is for all 7 forms of lightsaber combat which was said to be numbered in the millions, and which was completely unfamiliar to Bane is crazy.

As for the battle, Bane shits on Vader. Um just to let you know it was kasims unfamiliar style which got bane owned in a fight and that style was something never shown to bane before.

The point is bane gets thrown off if he never even sees a paticular style before and there are styles which he hav yet to see

THIS alone will get bane owned and we have the fact that vader is an exceptional duelist

Its the same case for vaders different, Its just as unpredictable as it was never shown to bane before.




As for a force fight? Vaders strong enough to even take a shit on bane

Let me guess proteus, bane > vader because bane performs feat X and vader doesnt?

Manslayer
Originally posted by Proteus
Bane absolutely outclasses him in the force. Using strength in the force attributed as being greater than that of hundreds of force users combined (Source: inside flap of PoD), and utilising that strength with force control that was adequate in directing power strong enough to wipe out an entire planet without getting blown apart in the process, he'd absolutely demolish Vader.

You see to forget that bane required the help of other sith lords to do his "planet wide" lightning feat

Darth Subjekt

Manslayer
Originally posted by Proteus
Along with his inferior strength in the force, inferior non-force aided strength, inferior non-force aided speed, and the healing abilities and protection that the orbalisks provide. Im sorry but vader isnt inferior to bane in the force, He has performed incredible feats through out his life.

-Using the force to take down a massive tree(One which is bigger than the pillar dooku took down and the same size as the jedi temple status which he lifted prior to mustafar) and crushing the dark woman


http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7996/talesvolume1078ae2.jpg



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4703/talesvolume1079hk3.jpg



- Having massive TK abilities
Being able to wtf pwn the emperors medical room by merely getting pissed off

-Send tark flinging like a ragdoll against the flow of gravity up into the star destroyers ceiling causing a massive dent

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8969/talesvolume1172tn3.jpg

-Diverting the flow of a waterfall to try to drown the dark woman






Originally posted by Proteus

Given his power was stated as being greater than that of the entire BoD,

"Bane recognized him as one of the lesser students from the Academy on Korriban: so weak in the Dark Side, it wasn't even worth learning his name." pg276

These are the kind of JOKES that are made DARK LORDS.

The Sith students on Korriban were supposedly the best of the best, yet most were made Lords after MONTHS of training just to fill numbers

Githany a Jedi Knight after a few months is promoted to Lord.



Revan alone held more knowledge then their ENTIRE Academy.



Originally posted by Proteus

I'd say Bane could be well stronger than Palpatine in the force. His incredible displays despite his lack of age and experience in comparison would certainly suggest as much. Either way, nothing indicates that Palpatine (and thus, the weaker Vader) are on that level in force potential, so the burden of proof is on you. I got proof palpatine > bane


Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes.

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

The New Essential Chronology

Yoda was unable to defeat the most poweful sith lord in history


Star wars databanks The most powerful practionar of the sith ways in modern times
Originally posted by Proteus

Firstly, all the evidence points to Bane being stronger in the force as explained above. Neither Sidious or Vader have displayed anything to make one believe that they possess the power equivalent to that of hundreds combined, and by comparing their learning rate which is very much correlated to strength in the force, Bane has either beat by a large margin. Refuted

Originally posted by Proteus

Secondly, you really want to compare Vader's talent to Bane's. LMAO!! The guy was only capable of mastering force lightning in less than an hour, and an entire holocron's worth of sith rituals in a few days. Vader doesn't come close to Bane, talent wise. Big deal and vader used the force crush technique for the first time when he got angry in the medical room and thus wtf pwning just about everything in it
Originally posted by Proteus

Thirdly, you label Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, which is quite a claim to make. Could I have some proof? I'd certainly put Exar and Nihilus above him personally. You just got it
Originally posted by Proteus

Finally, since when does powerful force user equate to powerful teacher? That's a ridiculous notion to make. You'd firstly have to consider the fact that it's very likely that Palpatine held Vader back;
RODV states that palpatine makes vader more powerful and trains him in the dark side to become very powerful, just that palpatine does it enough not to make him supremely powerful as the omniscient narrator states
Originally posted by Proteus

he's certainly never produced anything which would suggest that he was being taught some extraordinary stuff in terms of knowledge, and we know that it's the way of a Sith Master to hold back their students so that they would never become powerful enough to challenge them. Burden of proof is again on you.

Well being able to choke somebody while not even there is impressive especially considering the distance between the bridge deck and the meditation chamber.

Being able to break every bone in a thug who harrased him by merely force pushing him into a wall also disproves your claim that vader is weak.

Or

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5408/empirevol3038ta6.jpg


Originally posted by Proteus

I was referring to the storm like ritual that Bane and the BoD performed. The entire BoD focused their power through Bane (Bane also appears to have been draining them), and Bane directed all of their power onto Ruusan. The attack was described as consuming everything in its path, and was said to eventually destroy the whole of Ruusan. Now before you point out that the power wasn't entirely Bane's, I know that, I'm just pointing out his exceptional control and mastery over the force. Big deal, as you yourself pointed out bane couldnt do it himself.


Palpatine learned a Force Storm. It is is an attack that rips apart the fabric of existence and space-time. It can do everything from create a wormhole to move a person lightyears to ravage the surface of a planet to annihilate starfleets.


Palpatine uses Force lightning with enough power to kill 100 augmented Strormtroopers effortlessly. Same lightning reduced 3 dark siders strong enough to resurrect Darth Maul to charred skeletons.

His battle with Luke in Dark Empire, according to the audio, had enough energy sent off to kill nearby Stormtroopers. He also can drain planets of their energy.

Darth Sexy
Sorry Noobaris 2.0, but Manslayer is right. While Bane's mastery of the force is great, Vader's is apparently greater, ESPECIALLY after 20 years of tutelage under Sidious.

Proteus
Originally posted by Gideon
Accusing me of being narrow minded is all well and good, Proteus, but it can't change the facts. Sadly, you've only listed one possible definition of taming. Given the context of the statement, taming is synonymous with mastey and domestication. You're suggesting that Sidious somehow "toned down" the destructive nature of the Force, which is a tall claim, and would require proof -- especially since Sidious is responsible for the application of some of the most destructive Force techniques ever used. I'm afraid that logic isn't with you on this one.

Firstly, burden of proof is on you. You provided the quotes in an effort to prove that Sidious was the most powerful ever, so, I'd suggest proving up.

Secondly, I agree with you that taming implies some sort of mastery or domination over something, but that's achieved by toning down its destructive nature. To someone like Nihilus, that would be something he'd never wish to achieve. Exar is also displayed to be a straight out fighter, that doesn't care to much for the subtleties of the force (except his senate trick).

Thirdly, I'm not saying that Sidious couldn't use the force with its very destructive nature, but he's the only sith shown to truly excel at using it with subtlety, which is all that quote supports.



Actually, I never once changed my stance. Notice how originally my choice of words was that he excelled in combat. You don't have to focus on it to excel at it. Now Nihilus is better equipped to win a fight than Sidious is Gideon; his feeding ability, which Sidious and nearly all probably don't have a defence for, is shown to be more destructive than pretty much anything in the SWU, killing millions in quick succession with no real effort needed. Aside of that, he's displayed the ability to telekinetically lift up giant ships and toss around force titans like Traya. Nothing would indicate that Sidious would last against someone like that in combat.



You've proven no such thing. The only reason I was arguing the force power/combat effectiveness issue was if Sidious was more powerful: a claim which I've yet to see proof for.



So he drained an unknown amount of energy from a non sentient being over years? Nihilus did the same to millions of force sensitives, effortlessly in quick succession. His feat is more impressive.

Exar did the same, though on a smaller scale (to thousands, not millions).



Yet sadly the power's not exclusive to him (derived from the Ancient Sith, could be performed by Ancient Jedi, and Nadd has been stated as being able to do it) so in terms of putting him at the top of a hierarchy? It doesn't.



Oh wow, so he could utilise a very small amount of TK to crush a crystal and some metal. What a god.



He's very impressive.



Not to be rude Gideon, but I would find it extremely difficult to believe that this is the truth and not a lie. Firstly, it's not shown in the original source material, secondly audiobooks never usually give such new information, and thirdly, I can't even understand why you would even bother getting the audiobook. Who would? Not being rude, but naming an obscure source that hardly anyone is likely to have would be pretty convenient of you were being dishonest here. Anyways, I straight out don't believe this.



Well it's true. Lightsaber combat, he invented his own style and was considered Vodo's greatest student in his 600 years of teaching the order. With the force, he pretty much owned everyone he came across, whether it was blasting Sith Witches across the room or killing Ancient and Powerful jedi Masters. In terms of knowledge, he appears to have learnt a hell of a lot in a very small time, and he certainly displays this. Hell, in less than a year of studying sith magic, he arguably becomes its greatest ever user. He pretty much did own at everything he did.



Since when? Most sources that I've come across indicate that it was the coming of the Chose One that caused the unbalance. In fact, the unbalance was detected way before Palpatine was even born.



That was something he actively did, not a product of his mere presence, and like I was saying, palpatine truly did excel at using the force with subtlety.



Cheers, we'll continue it until then.

@ Lightsnake: Until you learn to stop committing the burden of proof fallacy, start to read my arguments properly, and learn how to provide quotes and sources together rather than dropping a random quote or source every here and there, I'm not wasting my time with you.

Proteus
Originally posted by Manslayer
Im sorry but vader isnt inferior to bane in the force, He has performed incredible feats through out his life.

-Using the force to take down a massive tree(One which is bigger than the pillar dooku took down and the same size as the jedi temple status which he lifted prior to mustafar) and crushing the dark woman


http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7996/talesvolume1078ae2.jpg



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4703/talesvolume1079hk3.jpg

Oh wow, so he began the fall of the tree by slicing across the bottom of it, and then used an unknown amount of force power to accelerate its fall. This proves... what? That he would make a great lumberjack?



So in an uncontrolled rage (which essentially unleashes most of if not all your raw power), he tore up some medical equipment. I'm impressed.



Sending one non force sensitive (who has no defence against TK) up into the air? Wow, I guess Obi-Wan would make Vader his b1tch then, given he did something undoubtably greater with Grievous.



So he used TK to control the flow of water at some pretty fast currents? Tell me Manslayer, are you actually trying to make a case for Vader here? The Tk rwquired really wouldn't need to be that impressive.



This is beyond a joke. So you're attempting to argue against the order as a whole by focusing on one of the weaker members who's only measurement of power is that he's weak in comparison to the order. That would be like saying that the PT Jedi suck because one of the weakest jedi in the order wouldn't possess a tenth of Yoda's power. See how silly that is? Comparisons within an order of force users cannot form a basis for the strenth of the order as a whole.



Know what you're talking about, they're stated as having trained for years, not months. And again, going back to my original point, this is entirely irrelevant given one of the key reasons that they were made Masters was because the BoD desperately needed them on the battlefield, and Quordis had retained his status in the order for long before that took place.



This is false. She had been a jedi Knight her entire life. It was as a Sith Lord that she had been for a few months.



No, the lore within his holocron contained more than that of the largely ignored archives. Nothing to do with the knowledge that you're clearly speaking of (of techniques).



Take note that I never once said Bane was more powerful; all I said was that he was probably stronger in the force.



Simply not true, I have the source on me.



Fallible third parties.



Appeal to authority. An opinion of a random SW writer is not official, sorry.



LMAO. This seems remarkably similar to the one from the Dark Empire Sourcebook, which turned out to be false... Yeah, I'm choosing to label this as a likely lie.



The whole concept behind the NEC is that it's made to be a book that would exist within the Star Wars Universe. Meaning that the author, in this case, is not omniscient, but actually a character within the universe.



1000 years prior =! modern times.



Firstly, even if your ramblings above were actually valid, they weren't even talking about force potential, but actual strength, which is not the comparison that I was just making.



Dealt with.



No, you just don't get it.



Which essentially proves my point. As great a teacher as Sidious may possibly be, Vader isn't receiving the full benefits if Palpatine largely holds him back.



Which is indicative of refinement of the force, not any exceptional knowledge, which Vader clearly didn't receive from Palpatine.



Haven't actually come across that, but even still, it's really not very impressive. A mere portion of the attack that Bane released on Lehon against Kas'im (the part that hit Kas'im) would have been able to disintegrate Kas'im if not for the fact that he could defend himself, which is far more impressive. Either way, come to me when Vader can actually dominate powerful force users rather than some random non force sensitives, and you may have an argument.



Is this actually supposed to mean anything? So he sent some wild dogs flying, Bane would have freaking disintegrated them with a small portion of his power.



Way to miss the point, which is that the fact that Bane could control it rather than get torn apart from the power speaks volumes.



Yet sadly it doesn't put Palpatine at the top of the hierarchy when you have many people being able to do the same. And again, just to clarify, it is my opinion that Palpatine is more powerful than Bane. But not Exar, Nihilus or Nadd, and certainly not stronger in the force than Bane.



Impressive indeed, but largely put to shame by Exar's draining of the Massassi, or Nihilus' destruction of Katarr.



Unbelievable. So because they were somewhat adept at some obscure branch of the darkside, they somehow have greater resistance to lightning than anybody else? Don't be ridiculous.



I find it very hard to believe that this is true personally. Could I ask where you heard this from?



An unknown amount of energy over many years. This in no way compares to Exar or Nihilus' usages of the technique.

Proteus
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sorry Noobaris 2.0, but Manslayer is right. While Bane's mastery of the force is great, Vader's is apparently greater, ESPECIALLY after 20 years of tutelage under Sidious.

The tutelage in question means little, and no, nothing Vader has done compares to the mastery Bane displays by directing the sith storm ritual onto Ruusan. And even then, in pure strength, Bane has him beat by an even larger margin. For instance, when he lashes out at the powerful Quordis and wipes away at his force defence as if it wasn't even there, or when he hurled a wave of darkside energy at Kas'im, the middle of which was capable of disintegrating kas'im, and the rest of which was able to collapse the entire Rakatan Temple in seconds, or when Kaan's force persuasion (which could bend any Sith in the BoD completely to his will), when used against Bane, was described as having 'no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar.' Bane was simply leagues above anybody in his era in the force, and his strength, which I'll repeat, was described as being greater than the entire BoD's combined, would demolish Vader.

Proteus

Lightsnake
What a hypocrite..."YOU can't pick one defin-"
That's what you're doing, you dolt.

Look who it is! Lies, fanboyism, twisting of logic and truth....hey, it's that idiot Sith'Ari!
Welcome back, enjoy your stay! Now get out of my sight and go away again. Forever. Thanks.

And just to show he's a lying fool: I do have the DE sourcebook...hm...

And name a single Sith Lord who has used a Force Storm to destroy fleets...and again, moron: Kun didn't drain the Massassi himself

Manslayer
Firstly i know its you nebaris, seeing how you enjoy downplaying other sources which tear your claims to shits.


Originally posted by Proteus
Oh wow, so he began the fall of the tree by slicing across the bottom of it, and then used an unknown amount of force power to accelerate its fall. This proves... what? That he would make a great lumberjack?



Firstly so what if he slices the bottom of the tree? It just demonstrates his ability to able to use his telekenesis effectively to bring down large objects, tell me bane fanboy what has bane done with telekenesis?



Oh thats right NOTHING. This simply proves his TK is effective and on a higher level than bane


Does it only have to be done on a force user for it to at the least impressive? Your an idiot nebaris,

Ohh lets see, You know NJO dont you? Most of the feats he did like his instant death emerald lightning and vast TK were on all NON force users, I guess Luke using TK to manipulate a black hole doesnt mean shit

Originally posted by Proteus

So in an uncontrolled rage (which essentially unleashes most of if not all your raw power), he tore up some medical equipment. I'm impressed. Lets see, In an uncontrolled rage which unleashes all of your raw power anakin still couldnt defeat somebody inferior to him in both in the force and saber skills, notably obi wan kenobi which he could have tooled had he actually been calm and not letting his emotions run wild.

While a clear minded "teh zone" anakin he was able to tool count dooku in a matter of minutes. My point? Prove up that getting angry unleashes your full raw power



Originally posted by Proteus

Sending one non force sensitive (who has no defence against TK) up into the air? Wow, I guess Obi-Wan would make Vader his b1tch then, given he did something undoubtably greater with Grievous. Um, sadly the impact didnt even devastate Grievous as it did to tark which causes a dent in the star destroyer. And how can obiwans feat be more impressive than vader seeing that vader does it against the flow of gravity? That the comic clearly illustrated vader does fast enough to cause a dent?

Prove to me obi wan is a weak force user? As far as i know he is exceptionally good in the force for a lightsider.

You also fail to notice that vaders force wave/push kills its victims, like the thug who harrased him and the last time i remember bane using the force wave, it severely drained his energy to a point where he had to lie down and couldnt go on


Originally posted by Proteus

So he used TK to control the flow of water at some pretty fast currents? Tell me Manslayer, are you actually trying to make a case for Vader here? The Tk rwquired really wouldn't need to be that impressive. Lets see, the case im making here is proving vaders proficiency in telekenesis unlike bane who has yet to demonstrate anything with TK


Originally posted by Proteus

This is beyond a joke. So you're attempting to argue against the order as a whole by focusing on one of the weaker members who's only measurement of power is that he's weak in comparison to the order.


Then what have the other so called dark lords done which at the least hints them to be exceptional?

How powerful was the order nebaris? Seeing that kaan their greatest and strongest leader is a mere piece of shit when compared to the likes of bane, vader, sidious revan and just about every force user from the kotor era, PT and TOTJ



And look here you dolt, why in the hell is a LESSER student being made a DARK LORD OF THE SITH? Supposidly the best of the best?


I wasnt merely focusing on just one paticular member of the BOD, Dont you get it? Dark lords are the best of the best and jokes like him get promoted to dark lords in a matter on months or years? Tell me nebaris what have the other students done which is impressive in the force or at the very least something to speak about?

We havnt seen them do shit on the level of vader and before your rants of BOD sith lord > PT jedi, theres a quote of lucas which will disprove that



Heres a quote you should consider

Those with greater ability are sent to worlds to that have allied with out cause destroy the republic

Right the lesser student that bane met and stepped on was with "greater ability that the rest" that was sent to fight against the jedi and republic

Sirak hasnt done shit, Githany too for that matter, what about kaan or quordis? The so called "Strongest of the order"?

Originally posted by Proteus

That would be like saying that the PT Jedi suck because one of the weakest jedi in the order wouldn't possess a tenth of Yoda's power. See how silly that is? Comparisons within an order of force users cannot form a basis for the strenth of the order as a whole. That was never the claim, The thing is TBOD strongest sith lord the leader kaan is bantha fodder and the fact that lesser students are promoted to dark lords


Originally posted by Proteus

Know what you're talking about, they're stated as having trained for years, not months.
That makes it even sadder
Originally posted by Proteus


And again, going back to my original point, this is entirely irrelevant given one of the key reasons that they were made Masters was because the BoD desperately needed them on the battlefield, and Quordis had retained his status in the order for long before that took place. You dont have to be a master to be sent into the battlefield

Originally posted by Proteus

This is false. She had been a jedi Knight her entire life. It was as a Sith Lord that she had been for a few months. . Big deal, so what if she was a jedi earlier? That doesnt change the fact that she sucks in the force seeing she has never done anything execptional with a lightsaber and the force.

Right, shes the best of the best


Originally posted by Proteus

No, the lore within his holocron contained more than that of the largely ignored archives. Nothing to do with the knowledge that you're clearly speaking of (of techniques). And just how much knowledge was in the archives? Last i recall exar kun and malak destroyed most of the data in the archives


Originally posted by Proteus

Take note that I never once said Bane was more powerful; all I said was that he was probably stronger in the force. Being stronger in the force = being more powerful, NO and am not taking things out of context


Originally posted by Proteus

Simply not true, I have the source on me.
Lol your just in denial, If you do have the source please post a scan or stfu

Originally posted by Proteus

Fallible third parties. Your the only one thats fallible, sorry whats written out universe has higher level of canon that what is mentioned inuniverse


Originally posted by Proteus

Appeal to authority. An opinion of a random SW writer is not official, sorry. Sorry but if he actually wanted his characters to be more powerful then he would have done so, and along with that a statement which states that his character is supreme.

Did he do that? No


Originally posted by Proteus

LMAO. This seems remarkably similar to the one from the Dark Empire Sourcebook, which turned out to be false... Yeah, I'm choosing to label this as a likely lie.
Just because you say so it doesnt mean so. Apparantly it doesnt turn out to be false simply because

1) Your nebaris
2) Your in denial

Originally posted by Proteus

The whole concept behind the NEC is that it's made to be a book that would exist within the Star Wars Universe. Meaning that the author, in this case, is not omniscient, but actually a character within the universe. Nebaris we have been through this thousands of time.

An in universe character IS NOT alive,An in universe character CANNOT dictate galactic history simply because the character isnt alive, Again daniel wallace confirmed it in his emails to janus and lightsnake and the NEC is written BY DAN WALLACE, NOT an universe character in reality.



Originally posted by Proteus

1000 years prior =! modern times. That would still be considered modern considering their technology



Originally posted by Proteus

Firstly, even if your ramblings above were actually valid, they weren't even talking about force potential, but actual strength, which is not the comparison that I was just making. Achieving potential = achieving strength.

Anakin had the most potential of any character, And that potential equates to be twice as powerful as sidious.

Sorry, your wrong again banehumper


Originally posted by Proteus

Dealt with. You havnt as you have not backed your claim with anything



Originally posted by Proteus

No, I just don't get it. Fixed

Manslayer
Originally posted by Proteus

Which essentially proves my point. As great a teacher as Sidious may possibly be, Vader isn't receiving the full benefits if Palpatine largely holds him back. Actually i can disprove that, vader told roan shryne that palpatine hasnt instructed him yet


Originally posted by Proteus

Which is indicative of refinement of the force, not any exceptional knowledge, which Vader clearly didn't receive from Palpatine. Claiming vader learnt nothing from palpatine is absurd, do you have anything to back up this ridiculous assertion? Or are you speculating?


Originally posted by Proteus

Haven't actually come across that, but even still, it's really not very impressive. A mere portion of the attack that Bane released on Lehon against Kas'im (the part that hit Kas'im) would have been able to disintegrate Kas'im
Uh dissintigrate kasim? No, break every bone in his body and cause his flesh to be squishy because there are no bones to support his body? Yes

Originally posted by Proteus

if not for the fact that he could defend himself, which is far more impressive. Either way, come to me when Vader can actually dominate powerful force users rather than some random non force sensitives, and you may have an argument. So because vader has never fought powerful force users = he is bantha fodder, fantastic analogy nebaris

Then i guess banes just as weak as he kills weakling force users and in the end only fought one true force user in a saber duel with kasim where he nearly gets his ass handed


Vader was merely trying to get that thug away from him, what happens if he was actually trying to kill him?

Originally posted by Proteus

Is this actually supposed to mean anything? So he sent some wild dogs flying, Bane would have freaking disintegrated them with a small portion of his power. Ah yes "freaking" this alone indicates that you ARE nebaris. Again his force wave cannot dissintigrate anything unlike exars amulets which burn away your flesh hence the "dissintigration"

Actually the fact weather he sent a pack of dogs is ambiguous, he could have choked 10 of them at once and instantly killed them seeing that their corpses are just a few feet away, Him blowing them back with the force would send them dozens of feet away rather than af ew


Originally posted by Proteus

Way to miss the point, which is that the fact that Bane could control it rather than get torn apart from the power speaks volumes. Page number please, ill check this one out


Originally posted by Proteus

Yet sadly it doesn't put Palpatine at the top of the hierarchy when you have many people being able to do the same. And again, just to clarify, it is my opinion that Palpatine is more powerful than Bane. But not Exar, Nihilus or Nadd, and certainly not stronger in the force than Bane. refuted again, Just that your in denial francine



Originally posted by Proteus

Impressive indeed, but largely put to shame by Exar's draining of the Massassi, or Nihilus' destruction of Katarr. Exar used technology to drain the massassi as the book itself states. "Sith tools"

And nihilus only drained what? A few jedi on the planet unaware to his presence? Palpatine has drained the planet of byss over the years to replenish his energies



Originally posted by Proteus

Unbelievable. So because they were somewhat adept at some obscure branch of the darkside, they somehow have greater resistance to lightning than anybody else? Don't be ridiculous. No but the fact that the were force users and that they were powerful enough to ressurect maul from the dead


Originally posted by Proteus

I find it very hard to believe that this is true personally. Could I ask where you heard this from? DE audio book



Originally posted by Proteus

An unknown amount of energy over many years. This in no way compares to Exar or Nihilus' usages of the technique. Refuted again

Manslayer
Oops n00baris got banned again

Gideon
Damn.

Perhaps next time, Nebaris.

Darth Subjekt
What a pathetic tool...

Well, at least we only have about a week until he comes back...

Sith Dude
Can someone please tell me why vader is even thought of as powerful? the only powers ive ever seen him use are force pull and choke, plus he can barley walk, how can he hope to face off against someone as ruthless and powerful as Bane? Plus Bane did much more then Vader ever could.
By the way, George Lucas just says Sidious is the most powerful Sith, and that Vader can defeat everyone and BS like that to promote the movies, it doesnt mean us star wars fans have to accept everything he says.

Darth Hord
Originally posted by Sith Dude

By the way, George Lucas just says Sidious is the most powerful Sith, and that Vader can defeat everyone and BS like that to promote the movies, it doesnt mean us star wars fans have to accept everything he says.

Um whenever the creator something makes a statement it is canon you can pick and choose what is want isnt just because you don't like it.

Thiru
Originally posted by Sith Dude
Can someone please tell me why vader is even thought of as powerful? the only powers ive ever seen him use are force pull and choke, plus he can barley walk, how can he hope to face off against someone as ruthless and powerful as Bane? Plus Bane did much more then Vader ever could.
By the way, George Lucas just says Sidious is the most powerful Sith, and that Vader can defeat everyone and BS like that to promote the movies, it doesnt mean us star wars fans have to accept everything he says. You by far are an idiot for bumping a dead thread and have made the most stupid statement i have ever seen in this forum.

What lucas says is canon, get over it. And sorry, its been prove vader > bane, he doesnt have TK and choke only, he has force crush and shown the ability to choke being lightyears away, most notably the time he choked zixor when zixor was on coruscant and vader on the devastator

Quark_666
Originally posted by Thiru
made the most stupid statement i have ever seen in this forum.

Look harder.

baneswrath
Look, it would be a very close fight between Darth Vader and Darth Bane. Darth Bane has his orbalisk which protect him and heal him almost instantly and also make him stronger in the darkside of the force. But the orbalisk can be killed by force lightning or anykind of electricution as we see in Darth Bane Rule of Two. Since Darth Bane is aware of this problem though it would be very hard for Vader to pull off a force lightning attack without Bane catching it with his lightsaber and deflecting it. Bane is also a master with his lightsaber and after his near defeat by his former master Kas'im you know he would have studied all the lightsaber styles because that's what Bane does. He seeks to find all knowledge of the darkside and darkside arts no matter if it kills him in the process. He is also a quick learner and brilliant tactician and is a true Sith Lord.

Now for Vader. Darth Vader is powerful and it is true he is exceptional with his lightsaber skills but what no one seems to think about or realize is that he is not nearly as powerful as Darth Vader as he was as Anakin Skywalker. Why you ask, I'll tell you. We all know about midichlorians. Well when you start to lose pieces of your body you lose midichlorians. It's ok to lose something like a hand like Luke Skywalker, but Anakin lost his arms and his legs. Because of this he became less powerful in the force though he was still very powerful. If you have read Legacy of the Force books you know that Darth Vader could never be a true Sith Lord. Now in Darth Vaders defense, just because you are not as strong in the force does not mean you cannot use the force better than someone who is stronger in the force. It depends on the individual. All being stronger in the force means is that when you use the force it takes less of a toll on your body physically. Take Kyp Durron for example. In one of the New Jedi Order books Luke uses the force so much he passes out for several hours afterward. Kyp Durron has to do the same thing Luke did later on but he knows he is stronger in the force and after he does it he just has a bad headache. But even though Kyp Durron is stronger in the force Luke skywalker still defeats him when they are sparring because he is more knowledgable in the force than Kyp and is a master with his lightsaber. So it depends on the person and their knowledge of the force. But on the downside even though Darth Sidious was Vaders master, Sidious would surely have not taught Vader to much so he could still impose his will on him and keep him his servant. Just like in the movies when Vader wants Luke to help him defeat Sidious. Why didn't he do it himself? Because he didn't have enough knowledge and was not as powerful as everyone thinks.

So sorry Darth Vader fans myself include but Bane wins hands down. Would be a good fight though.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by baneswrath
Look, it would be a very close fight between Darth Vader and Darth Bane. Darth Bane has his orbalisk which protect him and heal him almost instantly and also make him stronger in the darkside of the force. But the orbalisk can be killed by force lightning or anykind of electricution as we see in Darth Bane Rule of Two. Since Darth Bane is aware of this problem though it would be very hard for Vader to pull off a force lightning attack without Bane catching it with his lightsaber and deflecting it. Bane is also a master with his lightsaber and after his near defeat by his former master Kas'im you know he would have studied all the lightsaber styles because that's what Bane does. He seeks to find all knowledge of the darkside and darkside arts no matter if it kills him in the process. He is also a quick learner and brilliant tactician and is a true Sith Lord.

Now for Vader. Darth Vader is powerful and it is true he is exceptional with his lightsaber skills but what no one seems to think about or realize is that he is not nearly as powerful as Darth Vader as he was as Anakin Skywalker. Why you ask, I'll tell you. We all know about midichlorians. Well when you start to lose pieces of your body you lose midichlorians. It's ok to lose something like a hand like Luke Skywalker, but Anakin lost his arms and his legs. Because of this he became less powerful in the force though he was still very powerful. If you have read Legacy of the Force books you know that Darth Vader could never be a true Sith Lord. Now in Darth Vaders defense, just because you are not as strong in the force does not mean you cannot use the force better than someone who is stronger in the force. It depends on the individual. All being stronger in the force means is that when you use the force it takes less of a toll on your body physically. Take Kyp Durron for example. In one of the New Jedi Order books Luke uses the force so much he passes out for several hours afterward. Kyp Durron has to do the same thing Luke did later on but he knows he is stronger in the force and after he does it he just has a bad headache. But even though Kyp Durron is stronger in the force Luke skywalker still defeats him when they are sparring because he is more knowledgable in the force than Kyp and is a master with his lightsaber. So it depends on the person and their knowledge of the force. But on the downside even though Darth Sidious was Vaders master, Sidious would surely have not taught Vader to much so he could still impose his will on him and keep him his servant. Just like in the movies when Vader wants Luke to help him defeat Sidious. Why didn't he do it himself? Because he didn't have enough knowledge and was not as powerful as everyone thinks.

So sorry Darth Vader fans myself include but Bane wins hands down. Would be a good fight though.

Umm sir you did make some mistakes let me list the three biggest i see

1.Vader cannot throw lightning..... at least without damaging himself

2.midi-chlorians are counted per cell and vader's lost of "power" were for mental reasons

3. Kyp is not stronger in the force then Luke i may be mistaken but i think the authored cleared that up

baneswrath
1. I admit that I have no prior knowledge of Darth Vader not being able to throw lightning but that only proves my point that Darth Bane has an even bigger advantage but still my apologies.

2. Midi-chlorians being counted per cell still proves my point that if you lose most of your body which those cells are in you become weaker in the force and it is not just something I came up with it is stated several times in the Legacy of the Force series so there is no mistake.

3. Kyp durron is stronger in the force than Luke Skywalker. I have read the entire New Jedi Orders Series where this is stated and then proved in the book and the entire Legacy of the Force series and am currently on the second book in the Dark Nest Trilogy so unless it is stated other wise in the last Dark Nest book there is still no mistake.

Lucien A
If Vader can't block Bane's Lightning with his Lightsaber, he's screwed, end of story. And where exactly is it stated that losing body parts decreases one's Force apptitude?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Lucien A
If Vader can't block Bane's Lightning with his Lightsaber, he's screwed, end of story. And where exactly is it stated that losing body parts decreases one's Force apptitude?

Maybe the fact that Vader never reached his full potential.

Starkiller used lightning on Vader, and it didn't do too much damage.

Lucien A
Starkiller ain't Bane know is he? And Vader having been nearly immolated and forced to walk around in an iron lung makes no-nevermind to his abilities?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Lucien A
Starkiller ain't Bane know is he? And Vader having been nearly immolated and forced to walk around in an iron lung makes no-nevermind to his abilities?

No not Bane, but a bit more potent with the Force.

baneswrath
It is in the Legacy of the Force book Betrayal pg 411 told to Jacen Solo by the Dark Lady of the Sith Lumiya who would become Jacen's master in the darkside and lead Jacen to finally become Darth Ceadus.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by baneswrath
1. I admit that I have no prior knowledge of Darth Vader not being able to throw lightning but that only proves my point that Darth Bane has an even bigger advantage but still my apologies.

2. Midi-chlorians being counted per cell still proves my point that if you lose most of your body which those cells are in you become weaker in the force and it is not just something I came up with it is stated several times in the Legacy of the Force series so there is no mistake.

3. Kyp durron is stronger in the force than Luke Skywalker. I have read the entire New Jedi Orders Series where this is stated and then proved in the book and the entire Legacy of the Force series and am currently on the second book in the Dark Nest Trilogy so unless it is stated other wise in the last Dark Nest book there is still no mistake.

1. No problem smile While this would give Bane the advantage let's not forget that Vader could take some lightning like he did in TFU from starkilller (it slowed his momentum down) and that in the all out Vader has a Saber to block with.

2.No i mean that your force potential relies on the amount of midi-chlorians per cell so you could lose a finger, a hand, an arm, or a good chunk of your torso you still have the same midi-chlorian concentration per cell. And palpatine said that sith power resided in the mind not the flesh or something to that effect palps beliefs> lumiya's beliefs that and if midi-chlorains we on a mass basis then yoda would be weak and fat jedi would be strong in the force.

3.http://www.aaronallston.com/faqswars.html#all The author said that kyp thought he was stronger then luke not that he was towards the end of the interview.

Lucien A
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No not Bane, but a bit more potent with the Force. But as potent with Force Lightning? Wait... scratch that question. You're gonna use game mechanics and pixelated construction machines as an example.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Lucien A
But as potent with Force Lightning? Wait... scratch that question. You're gonna use game mechanics and pixelated construction machines as an example.

No i don't use game mechanics. I don't own one SW game, or any video game. I do however own TFU comic and novel, and from what i read and seen, Starkiller is pretty amazing with lightning.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by baneswrath
1. I admit that I have no prior knowledge of Darth Vader not being able to throw lightning but that only proves my point that Darth Bane has an even bigger advantage but still my apologies.

2. Midi-chlorians being counted per cell still proves my point that if you lose most of your body which those cells are in you become weaker in the force and it is not just something I came up with it is stated several times in the Legacy of the Force series so there is no mistake.

3. Kyp durron is stronger in the force than Luke Skywalker. I have read the entire New Jedi Orders Series where this is stated and then proved in the book and the entire Legacy of the Force series and am currently on the second book in the Dark Nest Trilogy so unless it is stated other wise in the last Dark Nest book there is still no mistake.

Kyp is not stronger than Luke in LOTF. I remember reading in one of the books that Jacen(Caedus) is stronger than the rest of the jedi, except for luke. So Luke > Jacen > Kyp.

baneswrath
Who knows whether Palpatines beliefs are correct or Lumiyas from Legacy of the Force book Betrayal pg 411. I understand what your saying about the midi-cholorians. Lumiya also says that a Siths power comes from their emotions but also says that because she lost most of her body that she cannot ever use the greatest of the Sith Lord powers later on in the book when she stares sadly at her mostly machine body. This is a question that the authors need to correct. I wish that the authors of these books would quit messing with the force. They are always changing it, trivializing it, making it confusing and hard to understand. I wish it was like the old days when good was good and bad was bad. A Jedi went out and got rid of the bad guy. Anyway I read the post about Kyp Durron where the author says it was Kyp who thought he was stronger that Luke and that he never actually said it. This is true. Kyp has to attempt the same thing Luke did that made him pass out for several hours. Kyp say's I know I'm stronger than Luke I have felt it. Then he does the same thing and only has a splitting headache afterward. To me that proved it. So why is this author being so confusing? Who cares if Kyp is stronger in the force than Luke he wouldn't be the first. Luke can still get rid of him in a fight. These are the kind of things in the books that I don't like. When the authors hide behind the words they have the characters say even though the actions they have the characters do show the opposite. The author needs to clear this up in a better. Sorry I was ranting.

baneswrath
Jacen only becomes stronger because he has more training after his 5 year search of the force and when he becomes Darth Ceadus.

Gideon
The internal musings of the most knowledgeable Force user in the mythos versus the deceptive speeches of a relatively ignorant and unestablished Sith aspirant.

Yeah, I'm going with Palpatine on this one.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by baneswrath
Who knows whether Palpatines beliefs are correct or Lumiyas from Legacy of the Force book Betrayal pg 411. I understand what your saying about the midi-cholorians. Lumiya also says that a Siths power comes from their emotions but also says that because she lost most of her body that she cannot ever use the greatest of the Sith Lord powers later on in the book when she stares sadly at her mostly machine body. This is a question that the authors need to correct. I wish that the authors of these books would quit messing with the force. They are always changing it, trivializing it, making it confusing and hard to understand. I wish it was like the old days when good was good and bad was bad. A Jedi went out and got rid of the bad guy. Anyway I read the post about Kyp Durron where the author says it was Kyp who thought he was stronger that Luke and that he never actually said it. This is true. Kyp has to attempt the same thing Luke did that made him pass out for several hours. Kyp say's I know I'm stronger than Luke I have felt it. Then he does the same thing and only has a splitting headache afterward. To me that proved it. So why is this author being so confusing? Who cares if Kyp is stronger in the force than Luke he wouldn't be the first. Luke can still get rid of him in a fight. These are the kind of things in the books that I don't like. When the authors hide behind the words they have the characters say even though the actions they have the characters do show the opposite. The author needs to clear this up in a better. Sorry I was ranting.

You're right. Who know if palps or lumiya's belief were correct but, likely palp's were considering he is the greatest sith lord ever (just ask lighsnake or gideon they will write you a novel about why he is). His belief is augumented by the fact that like i said small jedi can and have been powerful. On top of everything palps opinion does not contradict canon, so it is likely that lumiya was just talking garbage. What is it that Kyp did so well that you think he is stronger in the force then Luke, can you tell me what is the book too? About the rant it's alright, authors do contradict themselves back to back, i remember when in LOFT Betrayal it was said that the GA is composed of hundreds of worlds. smokin'

baneswrath
It is in one of the New Jedi Order books against the yuuzhan vong where Luke turns a dovil basil inside out and it destroys the creature it is protecting. Luke uses so much of the force to do it he passes out for hours afterward. Kyp has to do the same thing later on in the series where he turns the dovin basil of one of the yuuzhan vong ships inside out and afterwards he only has a headache. As for the book itself that these things are written in I'm sorry but I just don't have the energy to go through them all and find it. There are just to many of them.

Gideon
Originally posted by baneswrath
It is in one of the New Jedi Order books against the yuuzhan vong where Luke turns a dovil basil inside out and it destroys the creature it is protecting. Luke uses so much of the force to do it he passes out for hours afterward. Kyp has to do the same thing later on in the series where he turns the dovin basil of one of the yuuzhan vong ships inside out and afterwards he only has a headache. As for the book itself that these things are written in I'm sorry but I just don't have the energy to go through them all and find it. There are just to many of them.

Mastering one technique to a degree that is superior to another person is not necessarily indicative of superior power.

baneswrath
I can see why Palp could be the greatest sith lord ever. He decimated the jedi order with ease, he had the ability to read the future probably better than anyone, he bested Yoda and sent him into hiding. He had Darth Vader by the balls. I wish there was a book about him and Darth Plagueis.

baneswrath
This is true about mastering the technique but it was the first time both of them had tried to do it. Luke did it but suffered the consequences unlike Kyp. Kyp may have just been better that way in the force than Luke instead of being stronger.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by baneswrath
It is in one of the New Jedi Order books against the yuuzhan vong where Luke turns a dovil basil inside out and it destroys the creature it is protecting. Luke uses so much of the force to do it he passes out for hours afterward. Kyp has to do the same thing later on in the series where he turns the dovin basil of one of the yuuzhan vong ships inside out and afterwards he only has a headache. As for the book itself that these things are written in I'm sorry but I just don't have the energy to go through them all and find it. There are just to many of them.

I think that the ground-transport thing that Luke manipulated the dovin basal of was more massive than the ship that Kyp did it to, I may be remembering wrong.

Also, at some point in the NJO Anakin Solo is approaching Kyp and says something along the lines of a strong presence in the force is approaching(kyp), but not quite as strong as his(anakin). So is Anakin stronger than Kyp then?

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by baneswrath
It is in one of the New Jedi Order books against the yuuzhan vong where Luke turns a dovil basil inside out and it destroys the creature it is protecting. Luke uses so much of the force to do it he passes out for hours afterward. Kyp has to do the same thing later on in the series where he turns the dovin basil of one of the yuuzhan vong ships inside out and afterwards he only has a headache. As for the book itself that these things are written in I'm sorry but I just don't have the energy to go through them all and find it. There are just to many of them.

Pardon me if i take a while to respond i am gonna go track the quote down to see it's context.

baneswrath
I'm just saying that it is the way the book portrayed it. Whether Kyp is stronger or not to me does not matter. Luke is number one no matter what I just wish the authors would explain things better instead of leaving everyone to wonder what is and what isn't.

baneswrath
Ok I have found the passages in the books with the help of some other forums. When Luke does this it is in Dark Tide 1 pg. 260 and 261. When Kyp does this it is in Rebel Dream Pg. 238-240 there you go.

Lord Knightfa11
is ^this^ noobaris?

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by baneswrath
Ok I have found the passages in the books with the help of some other forums. When Luke does this it is in Dark Tide 1 pg. 260 and 261. When Kyp does this it is in Rebel Dream Pg. 238-240 there you go.

To my understanding of these respective parts of the book Luke's void (the black whole thing) was made by several dovin bassals protecting one creature while kyp's void we have no idea how many dovin basals made his (likely one since that is what seems to be standard in the Yuuzhan military). In addition "Kyp felt obliterated, bone-tired, as though he'd run for days, drawing on the Force to sustain him, and had finally settled down for rest." We must also consider that Kyp was a man in his prime whose body should have been able to take more then Luke's body who was 46 (and he has been involved in various battles throughtout most of his life).

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
is ^this^ noobaris?

I don't think so- BR has a different personality so far- much more tentative, more hesitant (I've only read some of the books)

From what I saw, there was little to no willingness to admit any failing whatsoever.
(I don't really know nebaris at all. I just wanted to write some pseudo intellectual BS. Did I do ok?)

baneswrath
Good points

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think so- BR has a different personality so far- much more tentative, more hesitant (I've only read some of the books)

From what I saw, there was little to no willingness to admit any failing whatsoever.
(I don't really know nebaris at all. I just wanted to write some pseudo intellectual BS. Did I do ok?)

One or two more sentences would have done the trick but you're right he's not "noobaris". If this "noobaris" character is as bas as they say our debate would have been a lot less diplomatic .

baneswrath
who is noobaris?

Lord Knightfa11
k the name is something that could defenitely belong to noobaris. noobaris pretty much is a bane fanboy, refuses to see reason or admit defeat, refuses to learn, flames, and pretty much just sucks at debating, even quality insulting, and life in general.

baneswrath
I am not noobaris if that is what you are all discussing. But I am willing to admit that I am wrong if there is enough evidence that proves it. So far what I have read in these discussions does not prove me wrong but has giving me alternate views to think about and you have all made good points. Like the Lumiya thing. Lumiya very well could have been just talking garbage to get Jacen to do what she wanted it just did not seem that way the book was written. It did not give her any alternate motives in the book. She simply taught Jacen to use the darkside and then died. Who knows it is what it is. She could have been just using Jacen to get back at Luke but it doesn't say so all one can do is speculate.

truejedi
his posts aren't long enough, nor haughty enough to be noobaris. Speaking of, he's been gone almost a month now, hasn't he?

baneswrath
uh..I just said I wasn't noobaris

baneswrath
confused

truejedi
lol, but you see, noobaris always says he isn't noobaris too!

i was agreeing with you!

baneswrath
I see lol.

Lord Knightfa11
Indeed. The fact that you denied that you were noobaris is actually the way that we know that you are noobaris. I said I was noobaris and look where i am today! hmm... maybe not the most motivating of examples...

baneswrath
Whatever....anyway I do have a question. Can anyone tell me why Leia uses a red lightsaber? Kind of off topic but I been wondering.

Ultimate Vader
Actually, this is because OT never shows Vader and Sidious's true powers. If we judge Vader from the films, we can say he's slow and his saber fighting is lame. But if we judge Vader from the comic and novelization, we can say that he's very powerful. Altough his weakness is lightning, it doesn't mean he can be killed by any lightning user. Even Galen shoots lightning to Vader and Vader is still coming to Galen. Sadly many people in Earth judge Vader's powers only from the films, although some people know Vader from the novel and comic.

Darth Exodus
Bane wins. He's better in everyway than Vader, although they may be equal in TK. POD, ROT, it doesn't matter, I just don't see Vader pulling out a win here.
Plus Bane's disintergrating lightning will be Vader's 2nd worse nightmare. Being molested by Sidious is no1, a fear shared by many.

Ultimate Vader
Do you judge Vader from film?

Darth Exodus
No, I judge Bane from book.

Ultimate Vader
I'm not talking about Bane. My question is, do you judge Vader from the film or the book.

Ultimate Vader
As I have predicted, people nowadays hate Vader. Only few people still like Vader. Probably because of PT>OT in almost every aspect.

truejedi
leia's lightsaber is pink.

Darth Exodus
I answered your question, but I'll repeat it. I judge him by the books etc not the films, but the displays of Bane in his books ecilpses Vader in many, many respects.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane wins. He's better in everyway than Vader, although they may be equal in TK. POD, ROT, it doesn't matter, I just don't see Vader pulling out a win here.
Plus Bane's disintergrating lightning will be Vader's 2nd worse nightmare. Being molested by Sidious is no1, a fear shared by many.

How are Bane and Vader equal in TK, when Vader is probably the most skilled user of TK. When has Bane force choked someone that was not even in the same room, or force grip someone lightyears away?

The only advantage Bane has is his lightning.

baneswrath
Originally posted by truejedi
leia's lightsaber is pink.

Leia's lightaber is ruby red in NJO

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How are Bane and Vader equal in TK, when Vader is probably the most skilled user of TK. When has Bane force choked someone that was not even in the same room, or force grip someone lightyears away?

The only advantage Bane has is his lightning.

When has Vader vaporized an ancient temple, or mind F'ed a charging rancor? Lets not even get in to the stuff Bane did in-ritual, or his tendency to mix saber combat w/Force attacks. Bane's showings > Vader's showings in the force. (That I know of)

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
When has Vader vaporized an ancient temple, or mind F'ed a charging rancor? Lets not even get in to the stuff Bane did in-ritual, or his tendency to mix saber combat w/Force attacks. Bane's showings > Vader's showings in the force. (That I know of)

Mind controling a rancor is not that impressive, considering they are not even sentient beings. Obi Wan using mind trick on a storm trooper is more impressive than that.

Bane required the help of other sith lords for his rituals. Besides a ritual would not help him much in this case.

Vaporizing a fortress is impressive, but lets not forget that Vader also crushed a fortress on kashyyyk with the force, or caved in walls to a room in the jedi temple, while force choking Malorum at the same time.

Oh and BTW, Vader has used force attacks during a duel. Remember all those TK storms he used against faster oponents?

truejedi
Originally posted by baneswrath
Leia's lightaber is ruby red in NJO

oh, i dunno then... its called pink in LOTF.

baneswrath
Originally posted by truejedi
oh, i dunno then... its called pink in LOTF.

thanks though

Darth Exodus
This is why I said that they might be on par in the area of TK. However, In my opinion Bane has used it to much greater effect in combat. When has Vader used a force push that can liquify bone? When has Vader vaporised metal with his TK? Broken through the shields of powerful jedi and sith masters like they were paper? Hmmmm..... well mabye the second one, but I've never seen him do it with the ease of Bane.

Plus Bane moved a moon big grin

Ultimate Vader
You seem to underestimate and underrate Vader...

Darth Exodus
I don't, I just know his position in the heirachy. You on the other hand overrate him with out backing it up.

Again, everything that Vader's done, Bane's done it bigger and better. Bane would beat Vader.

Ultimate Vader
Do you see the other posts? Especially the picture posts. And I know about Vader fighting Anya Kuro, 3 jedi knights, bring down very big tree, don't die after being hit by two pillars, force crushing vehicles, force choke people just by looking at them in monitor, beat Maul clone, etc. Look, do you realize that almost every character in EU don't really has a big flaw, weakness, or something like that. Especially the NJO. Meh. overrate Vader without backing him out? what do you want by saying that? make me mad? make me post bad words? make me say crazy things like boog? no chance.

Darth Exodus
Make you actually start arguing? Make you actually post some feats that can top Bane's?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
This is why I said that they might be on par in the area of TK. However, In my opinion Bane has used it to much greater effect in combat. When has Vader used a force push that can liquify bone? When has Vader vaporised metal with his TK? Broken through the shields of powerful jedi and sith masters like they were paper? Hmmmm..... well mabye the second one, but I've never seen him do it with the ease of Bane.

Plus Bane moved a moon big grin

What "powerful" jedi or sith's shields has Bane broken through? I don't think there was too many powerful sith back then, except for Kaan and a few others. Besides, Vader has broken through the shields of the force sensitive clones, created from one of the emperor's hands. Vader also imploded the entire body of Mon Mothma's son.

Again, Vader has force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away. That shows a very great command of the force. One can even argue that this was the technique Palpatine was talking about in his book of anger, "Being able to crush cartlage from afar." That requires a very great command of the force.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
This is why I said that they might be on par in the area of TK. However, In my opinion Bane has used it to much greater effect in combat. When has Vader used a force push that can liquify bone? When has Vader vaporised metal with his TK? Broken through the shields of powerful jedi and sith masters like they were paper? Hmmmm..... well mabye the second one, but I've never seen him do it with the ease of Bane.

Plus Bane moved a moon big grin

Did Bane actually vaporize metal as in turned it into a gas with tk? because i am having a hard time imagining that (not because it's Bane but because it's a push that heated metal enough to convert it into gas)

Lucien A
Maybe Lightning, but a Force Push? Sounds a little... retarded.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Lucien A
Maybe Lightning, but a Force Push? Sounds a little... retarded.

Although that's putting it a little too bluntly stick out tongue , i agree i couldn't begin to fathom how it would work with tk.

Lucien A
It kinda downplays people like Vader, whose TK is supposed to be awesome, and Palpatine, whose #1 status never showed such powerful Force Pushes. It's retarded writing.

Darth Exodus
Qordis, Farfalla (jedi grandmaster) and Raskta. Admittedly only the first two are impressive, but still, the ease of which he did so to the numero uno jedi of the period and one of the top sith, in charge of the top academy speaks of the volume of his ability.



Ohhhh wow! Excuse me while I feint with awe!! Vader's a beast!!



And Bane destroyed the Rakatan temple, could liquidise bone with his FP's and turn his opponents to ash with his FL.



Well mabye I was exaggerating when I said 'vaporise', but it was the only word that I could think of that fit. He turns several technobeasts, comprised mainly of metal and bone into shards or small somethings. Damn, I need the post.... i'll have it for tommorow unless someone else will post it.



This is why said that they were close in terms of TK. Clearly Vader shows some great displays just like Bane, but I would put Bane's showings in actual combat above Vaders in terms of lethality. To be sure, I doubt that Vader can slice through Bane's Fshield enough to use force choke and with the orbalisks a FP won't do much. Opposingly, Bane's lightning would scare Vader sh*tless. And I know that he tanked Starkillers lightning, but Bane's lightning is quite a bit higher than SK's, in that it actually can vaporise his opponents.

SIDIOUS 66
Vader took blast after blast of Palpatine's lightning, and still managed to throw his down the reactor shaft. Palpatine's lightning is more powerful than Bane's, so i doubt Bane will easily take Vader out with lightning. Besides Vader still has his lightsaber.

Vader has done everything Bane has with TK and more. Vader has tore down a fortress, killed stor troopers with FP's, easily force crushed others with lightning, tore down a bridge, caught a heavy pillar in mid and redirected it, create powerful TK storms, and more. Can you tell me a time where Bane has ever force gripped someone lightyears away, or force choke someone who was not even in the same room; to me that alone raises Vader many levels in TK.

Elite Hunter
What exactly are "powerful TK storms?"

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
What exactly are "powerful TK storms?"

When Vader overwhelms his oponents by throwing objsect at them non-stop. Kinda like what he did to Luke at Bespin, except better.

Ultimate Vader
In other words, Vader is possibly the most powerful telekinetic user in history of SWU.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
In other words, Vader is possibly the most powerful telekinetic user in history of SWU.

One of the most powerful would be more accurate.

Ultimate Vader
I said possibly smile

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
I said possibly smile

my bad embarrasment

Ultimate Vader
It's okay. But one of the most powerful fits well too.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
It's okay. But one of the most powerful fits well too.

glad to see we agree, he's defitnetly one of the best tk users ever.

Ultimate Vader
No problem.

Darth Exodus
Palpatine wasn't using his full power FL's. He was torturing Luke becuase he's a **** and wanted to have some fun and teach Luke that it isn't wise to throw away your lightsaber in front to a pissed Sith Lord. Sidious' full strength FL was enough to turn people to ash (just as Bane's is) so it's obvious he wasn't going all-out. And the lightning killed him anyway.



Bane's lightning is described to have 'a dozen arcs' of electricity or something like that. Is Vader gonna catch them all on that slim blade?



That was Luke. And if not please post the source.



Bane can liquidise bone with his. That > killing some random guys.



This doesn't make sense.



Bane smashed the rakatan temple to the ground.



This is impressive in combat and mastery, but not in raw power. And it's not going to stop the much faster Bane from zapping him or beating him in saber's.



Again, this is impressive and speak's of raw power and mastery etc. the only problem is that Bane isn't lightyears away, he's right in front of him and he has the power and the source's to say that he could probably block at least the first attack and them move in to get the win.



Agreed. But one skill isn't enough to get the win here.

Faunus
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
In other words, Vader is possibly the most powerful telekinetic user in history of SWU. No he isn't. Based on feats, that honor would go to Nihilus, with Yoda, Luke, and Galen taking the next three spots.

He's -one- of the best, but he isn't even in contention for the top spot.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Palpatine wasn't using his full power FL's. He was torturing Luke becuase he's a **** and wanted to have some fun and teach Luke that it isn't wise to throw away your lightsaber in front to a pissed Sith Lord. Sidious' full strength FL was enough to turn people to ash (just as Bane's is) so it's obvious he wasn't going all-out. And the lightning killed him anyway.



Bane's lightning is described to have 'a dozen arcs' of electricity or something like that. Is Vader gonna catch them all on that slim blade?



That was Luke. And if not please post the source.



Bane can liquidise bone with his. That > killing some random guys.



This doesn't make sense.



Bane smashed the rakatan temple to the ground.



This is impressive in combat and mastery, but not in raw power. And it's not going to stop the much faster Bane from zapping him or beating him in saber's.



Again, this is impressive and speak's of raw power and mastery etc. the only problem is that Bane isn't lightyears away, he's right in front of him and he has the power and the source's to say that he could probably block at least the first attack and them move in to get the win.



Agreed. But one skill isn't enough to get the win here.


I don't know why i wrote lightning lol. In TFU Vader crushed a fortress on kashyyyk.

I was not talking about when Palpatine was frying Luke. His lightning, according to the ROTJ novel, intensified when he was trying to kill Vader. You could even see the outlining of Vader's skull, even underneath all that armor. He was torturing Luke, but trying to kill Vader. Dooku's lightning also had "dozens of arcs", but Anakin was able to catch it with his saber.

Kas'im managed to block Banes FP, so why couldn't Vader? As i said before, Vader has done everything Bane has done as far as TK, and more.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Palpatine wasn't using his full power FL's. He was torturing Luke becuase he's a **** and wanted to have some fun and teach Luke that it isn't wise to throw away your lightsaber in front to a pissed Sith Lord. Sidious' full strength FL was enough to turn people to ash (just as Bane's is) so it's obvious he wasn't going all-out. And the lightning killed him anyway.
FYI palpatine intesified his lightning afterwards but what's the point of this point ( stick out tongue ) if we know papa palpatines lightning was stronger


Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane's lightning is described to have 'a dozen arcs' of electricity or something like that. Is Vader gonna catch them all on that slim blade?

All force lightning attacks have multiple arcs that are wider then a lightsaber but the lightning always bends towards the reciever or lightsaber. Palps lightning was suppose to go throught a much wider area but since he was targeting Luke it stayed on Luke.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane can liquidise bone with his. That > killing some random guys.

Are you talking about the force wave on Kas'im?


Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane smashed the rakatan temple to the ground.

Yes this was when he was trying to kill Kas'im but Kas'im force shield was stronger then the tk attack so why can't Vader just shield himself unless you are suggesting that Kas'Im is stronger then rape-Kar-Vastor-dead-Vader. Bane had to charge this tk attack and he was "drained by the sudden unleashing in the force" so if he fails once with this he is probably a goner. And hey Vader can shake the foundation of a building by just getting mad.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
This is impressive in combat and mastery, but not in raw power. And it's not going to stop the much faster Bane from zapping him or beating him in saber's.

Wont win the battle for him but it will help him.


Agreed. But one skill isn't enough to get the win here.

That actually wasn't meant for you wink

Red Nemesis
Bane's lightning required that Raskta had to move her sabers in "figure eights" to catch all of it. Anakin held his lightsaber still. Bane >> Dooku at lightning, because he has (apparently) 12 times the number of 'arcs' of lightning generated at once.

Edit:


Very probably.

truejedi
so, does how strong someone in the force is affect what the lightning does to them?

Consider: In Rots, Mace is struck with a full blast of sidious's lightning. He is not turned to ash, he's thrown out the window. Luke is struck by lightning, he isn't turned to ash. Perhaps being strong in the force somewhat protects you from force lightning (as in perhaps a non-force sensitive being struck by the lightning that struck mace WOULD HAVE been turned to ash?)

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Bane's lightning required that Raskta had to move her sabers in "figure eights" to catch all of it. Anakin held his lightsaber still. Bane >> Dooku at lightning, because he has (apparently) 12 times the number of 'arcs' of lightning generated at once.

Edit:


Very probably.

I was not arguing that Dooku's lightning was stronger than Banes. He was implying that Vader would not be able to catch Bane's lightning because of the number of arcs, but lightsabers seem to be able to absorb the energy of lightning. Unless the person holding the lightsaber is not strong enough to hold the saber in place, which Vader most likely is.

Red Nemesis
Anakin (Vader as a Jedi) was shown to be able to block Dooku's lightning. Bane's is stronger, and more difficult to block (Raskta had to move her blades in a figure eight to catch all of the arcs). We have no proof that Vader, who is especially succeptible to Force lightning will be able to defend against Bane's attacks. FL is not attracted to the lightsaber, it must be anticipated and blocked. Vader will have to use his limited mobility to catch all of the streams of FL, which I don't think he could do.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Anakin (Vader as a Jedi) was shown to be able to block Dooku's lightning. Bane's is stronger, and more difficult to block (Raskta had to move her blades in a figure eight to catch all of the arcs). We have no proof that Vader, who is especially succeptible to Force lightning will be able to defend against Bane's attacks. FL is not attracted to the lightsaber, it must be anticipated and blocked. Vader will have to use his limited mobility to catch all of the streams of FL, which I don't think he could do.

As i said before, Palpatine's lightning is more powerful than Bane's, and Vader took blast after blast of it, and still didn't die instantly. I fact he speeded up his death by having Luke remove his mask. Starkiller has shown to overpower at-walkers, and giant beasts with lightning, but was unable to take Vader out with it. It didn't even seem to have a great effect on Vader.

Vader was still able to move his arms fast. He just could not jump around like he use to.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Anakin (Vader as a Jedi) was shown to be able to block Dooku's lightning. Bane's is stronger, and more difficult to block (Raskta had to move her blades in a figure eight to catch all of the arcs). We have no proof that Vader, who is especially succeptible to Force lightning will be able to defend against Bane's attacks. FL is not attracted to the lightsaber, it must be anticipated and blocked. Vader will have to use his limited mobility to catch all of the streams of FL, which I don't think he could do.

I didn't mean that lightning bends towards a saber i was just saying that lightning always has to many arcs for a lightrsaber yet the lightsaber still catches them all. And Vader's "limited mobility" lies more so in his legs then arms heres a quote from rise of darth vader to support that:Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip." And if some of those arcs get through we don't know if they would be poweful enough to do serious damage.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Edit:Very probably.

Bane's tk couldn't liquidfy bones it could just shatter them all.

Edit: that was meant for exodus.

Red Nemesis
I'm going to assume that you meant 'too many'. The lightsaber does not always catch them all- in the PT, the lightning can all be caught with a stationary saber, but this is not the case with Bane's lightning. Raskta Lsu struggled to catch all of it.



I don't think Vader could do this- Bane's lightning is too widespread for a single saber to catch- especially with Vader's limited range of motion.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm going to assume that you meant 'too many'. The lightsaber does not always catch them all- in the PT, the lightning can all be caught with a stationary saber, but this is not the case with Bane's lightning. Raskta Lsu struggled to catch all of it.



I don't think Vader could do this- Bane's lightning is too widespread for a single saber to catch- especially with Vader's limited range of motion.

Does it take fast acrobatic moves to carve an eight figure? Vader was still fast with his arms.

Ultimate Vader
This is contradictive. Some source say Vader's attacks are slow, but in RODV, his attacks are just as strong as other people.

truejedi
vader's limited range of motion wouldn't hurt him when being fired at with lightning. He can move enough to protect his body. If he is protecting his body, the other bolts can get right through. Bane would just miss with those, thats all. he doesn't have to block them all. Just the ones aimed at him.

Lucien A
Originally posted by truejedi
vader's limited range of motion wouldn't hurt him when being fired at with lightning. He can move enough to protect his body. If he is protecting his body, the other bolts can get right through. Bane would just miss with those, thats all. he doesn't have to block them all. Just the ones aimed at him. Lol, that's like the crappy translation of some Anime character saying "People die when you kill them." Doing!

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