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I remember a while back, I had a discussion with Nellinator and Shakyamunison.


Nellinator argued that the natural state of the human race is sinfulness, while Shakyamunison then argued, no, the natural state of the human race is survival.

Nellinator did not like that answer, because he figured people have done horrible things to other people, and it was not for the sake of survival. It was for thier own sick pleasure/selfishness, not out of necessity.

At first I totally agreed with Shakymunison, but then I began to look at this deeper.

When a person robs a bank, or mugs someone, or steals money/property from another person, chances are than he/she needed the money, otherwise they would not have done such a thing.

A person who enacts abuse of drugs does so because he or she needs an escape from painful reality, at least for the most part. Drugs makes them forget about thier prior stresses, and takes them to temporary states of pleasure. However, they become addicted and dependent, and then in turn, because of tolerance, require more drugs to get the same feeling.

These are obviously cases where a person has done something society considers wrong, things which are in fact, harmful, but because they felt they had no other way. They tried to get a "good" or make good, through a process of "bad".


However, there are other instances where people have harmed other people, not out of necessity, but out of pure desire.

People have been killed and tortured, all around the world, for no other reason than one's personal amusement.

Even in the media, radio and tv personalities bash and make fun of other public figures, for no other reason than profit and humor. People publicly exploit private situations for the sake of news, for the sake of entertainment.


And so on.....


So, I have come to my own personal conclusion:


********

The Natural State of Humanity is Survival.


The Conditioned State of Humanity is "Sinfulness".


*********





I say conditioned, because I feel that we are taught by others to become cruel and to think ill of others. I believe we are raised to and/or learn to become cruel, to see others as a means to an end, and to think nothing of gaining through the loss(es) of another person.

I don't think we naturally, from birth, find pleasure in harming others. Perhaps we are selfish from an early age, as is evident through child behavior, but for the sake of survival.

It's obvious that in early stages of child development, even adolescent development, we all want to belong. So we value superficial means in order to "fit in" with a group. To me, that reeks more of survival, than of sincere cruelty. We are all guilty of having enacted in "bullshit" to fit in, to some degree.


*****


Nellinator made it clear to me that he beleives people are, deep down inside, bad. And it's not like he has nothing to go on with that, I mean the human race has a history of cruelty towards itself and animals as well.


A few days ago, I witnessed something so disgusting. I saw a homeless woman on the train station in NY. She looked like she was about to fall over, and she was begging for money. She was very old, very tired looking, and very skinny.

People just passed her like nothing. So I decided to reach into my wallet and give her $2.00, that was all I had.

Suddenly, this other woman walks by. The woman yells out to her "Get up ! Get up ! You're about to fall ! Get up before you break your face !"

The homeless lady yells "That's what I'm trying to do you idiot".

The other woman then sarcastically mimics her: "That's what I'm trying to do you idiot", then laughs afterwards.



I just couldn't believe how cruel that woman was. She was entertaining herself by making fun of a starving dying woman.

I went up to the homeless woman and gave her my money. She said the usual, "Oh thank you, God bless you, etc"


I felt like...how can people be this mean to someone suffering like this ? Do people reallly not care ? How can someone think that's okay ?

But, I only think that exists on the surface for the most part.


I was angry as hell. I wanted to find that other woman and punch her lights out. I felt so strongly that she deserved a good bash in the head. I never felt so motivated to actually attack a woman like that.


I then calmed down, and told myself that people are cruel...because others are cruel to them. I mean...that has to be the reason.... We learn to become cruel, either through interaction with peers, parents, etc. IF someone were genuinely happy, would they do stuff like that ?



I don't know.



Anyways, I apologize for the written clutter, but what do you guys think ?


Sinfulness or Survival ? And why ?

Can you please provide links to the conversation you had with me on this topic?

Sins don't exist in the traditional sense.

And you're basically just outlining the nature/nurture argument. Our biological state is survival, but we aren't conscious of our genetic tendency for survival, so our conscious decisions (which are influenced by both biology and cultural factors) can be for entirely different reasons than "survival", and can be selfish or altruistic depending on the choice.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you please provide links to the conversation you had with me on this topic?


I am not going to remember what thread it was on. It was really an argument between you and Nellinator, and I just kinda butted in

if you are not gonna remember it whay the hell bring it up?

It's the subject of thier conversation I want to discuss, not the discussion itself

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I am not going to remember what thread it was on. It was really an argument between you and Nellinator, and I just kinda butted in

I think you have generalised my point of view. The base nature of human kind is Enlightenment.

the base of human nature is to reproducce

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think you have generalised my point of view. The base nature of human kind is Enlightenment.


I remember you saying to Nellinator that Survival is the nature of every living thing, humanity no exception.


But what you said, what you meant,in the past conversation, isn't totally relevant here. What do you think of the point I made above ?

"I then calmed down, and told myself that people are cruel...because others are cruel to them. I mean...that has to be the reason.... We learn to become cruel, either through interaction with peers, parents, etc. IF someone were genuinely happy, would they do stuff like that ?"

no. i found that im mean on multiple occasions as a defense mechanism. i do it unintentionally to my friends and it pisses them off. i cant help it. i was made of alot and now i think its natural to be mean to people.

humans are naturally bad. thats my opinion

What? No gay jokes?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
"I then calmed down, and told myself that people are cruel...because others are cruel to them. I mean...that has to be the reason.... We learn to become cruel, either through interaction with peers, parents, etc. IF someone were genuinely happy, would they do stuff like that ?"

no. i found that im mean on multiple occasions as a defense mechanism. i do it unintentionally to my friends and it pisses them off. i cant help it. i was made of alot and now i think its natural to be mean to people.

humans are naturally bad. thats my opinion


I agree with your first point. I truly beleive that it is only people who are discontent with themselves or thier life, who make it a routine to be cruel/mean/judgmental to others.


I disagree with your second statement, though. I don't think human beings are naturally bad, I think we become that way as a result of what we have been through.

I don't see it that way. I believe that people go through certain kinds of conditioning's that would cause them to protect themselves. Some protecting themselves by masking it as hate towards others.

well i mean that in the sense that it happened back even in biblical times. it nots like just recently we kill each other and its not like torture was just introduced. this has been around for awhile

Well at least we don't use hot pokers in peoples eyes anymore as they did during the Inquisitions.......Blind them to the TRUTH!

my point IS the fact that humans have been evil before and after jesus

Chances are they needed the money, huh? The exact opposite could be said as well. What if the thief only wanted the money?

Well, let's start with the premises. Let's talk the survival instinct first. Your thoughts?

survival isnt a problem anymore except if your homeless. then that matters, today survival is talked about in business. who will come out on top, that sort of thing.

actually, it depends very much on what perspective you look at things as. if survival to yo mean merely overt preservation and existant which can be gotten with adequate food, water and lack of disease. then yes, humanity is very sinful indeed. however, if you also include catering to personal desires/social necessities/peer pressure and the SELF built through society{n if u didnt cater to it ud be very much a homeless person, alone and suffering, bt still alive} then you can start calling such actions survival too. there are an almost infinite perspective to look from, ill only try to give my take on a few.

proving one's worth to one's own mind: this is often the reason for much cruelty, if the SELF is taugh socially to glorify inequality, acheive succes at all costs, run over people, and become greater and better than others than a person who isnt able to show cruelty towards people would feal wortheless in his or her own eyes. ofcourse it can turn into mockery as well.

trying to FIT IN: often times, to prove our worth to OTHERS to gain the comfort of ACCEPTANCE, we do things which makes it seem to others that the person in question is above an average man and worthy of being in the group{a good example is the kind of things ud have to do to join a bully group or gang}

fealing better about one's ownself: often times if we show spite, disgust and hatred to another apparently lower person than us, it helps to validate our own state of being and makes us feal BETTER about our ownselves and our own insecurities. furthermore, by making ourselves beleive the other person deserves it, we can justify the superiority of our moralles and conduct. this type of mentality is often found in racism/colonialism/nationalism etc. and specially relegions where self righteousness and happiness at the thought of the FILTHY HEATHENS getting what they deserve and burning eternally in hell is so likeable to some.

-channeling negetivity and frustration: this point in connected to the last because from another perspective, when you feal SELF RIGHTEOUS, and have a labelledgateway to DIRECT your frustrations towards, you take outt your general anger/discontent/frustration on sum1 else even though they are not at fault for it, and dont feal bad afterwards because it is justified to you.

information management: this is also in ways linked to the "fealing better about yourself" point. psychologically, it is proven that your mind can not handle all the stimulus it recieves from your senses. that is why the greater part of visual information is lost as is audial information{ud be surprised how little you actually retain}. in social psychology, the brain does a similar thing with CATEGORISING, that is, with making sense of the people in the world around you.

stereotyping is the direct result of this phenomenon, the reaosn you stereotype is because, if you tried to do justice and remember everything your senses took in about all the people that you met, your brain would explode{figuratively}. so it is much more convenient to label people into more iniform categories with certain characteristics which always hold true and it is deemed useless to think about individual differences. that is why entire nations can easily justify their outlet for negetivity and cruelty towards other nations because theyr just BAD. jenocide, ehtnic cleansing etc. it is also the reason why most people make the fundamental attribution error. i.e. the phenomenon wherebye, an individual almost always attributes predispositional reasons to another person's behaviour/state and attributes situational reasons to his/her own behaviour.

on a slightly different not. politically, cruelty is often used as a means to spread FEAR, which is a great tool for keaping the masses loyal or under your control.

thats about it for now. srry if i went on too long. you an asses whether these factors should be deemed as survival or sinfulness.{which again depends on perspective lol}

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
what do you guys think ?

I think you simpli- and stupify human nature.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, it depends very much on what perspective you look at things as. if survival to yo mean merely overt preservation and existant which can be gotten with adequate food, water and lack of disease. then yes, humanity is very sinful indeed. however, if you also include catering to personal desires/social necessities/peer pressure and the SELF built through society{n if u didnt cater to it ud be very much a homeless person, alone and suffering, bt still alive} then you can start calling such actions survival too. there are an almost infinite perspective to look from, ill only try to give my take on a few.

proving one's worth to one's own mind: this is often the reason for much cruelty, if the SELF is taugh socially to glorify inequality, acheive succes at all costs, run over people, and become greater and better than others than a person who isnt able to show cruelty towards people would feal wortheless in his or her own eyes. ofcourse it can turn into mockery as well.

trying to FIT IN: often times, to prove our worth to OTHERS to gain the comfort of ACCEPTANCE, we do things which makes it seem to others that the person in question is above an average man and worthy of being in the group{a good example is the kind of things ud have to do to join a bully group or gang}

fealing better about one's ownself: often times if we show spite, disgust and hatred to another apparently lower person than us, it helps to validate our own state of being and makes us feal BETTER about our ownselves and our own insecurities. furthermore, by making ourselves beleive the other person deserves it, we can justify the superiority of our moralles and conduct. this type of mentality is often found in racism/colonialism/nationalism etc. and specially relegions where self righteousness and happiness at the thought of the FILTHY HEATHENS getting what they deserve and burning eternally in hell is so likeable to some.

-channeling negetivity and frustration: this point in connected to the last because from another perspective, when you feal SELF RIGHTEOUS, and have a labelledgateway to DIRECT your frustrations towards, you take outt your general anger/discontent/frustration on sum1 else even though they are not at fault for it, and dont feal bad afterwards because it is justified to you.

information management: this is also in ways linked to the "fealing better about yourself" point. psychologically, it is proven that your mind can not handle all the stimulus it recieves from your senses. that is why the greater part of visual information is lost as is audial information{ud be surprised how little you actually retain}. in social psychology, the brain does a similar thing with CATEGORISING, that is, with making sense of the people in the world around you.

stereotyping is the direct result of this phenomenon, the reaosn you stereotype is because, if you tried to do justice and remember everything your senses took in about all the people that you met, your brain would explode{figuratively}. so it is much more convenient to label people into more iniform categories with certain characteristics which always hold true and it is deemed useless to think about individual differences. that is why entire nations can easily justify their outlet for negetivity and cruelty towards other nations because theyr just BAD. jenocide, ehtnic cleansing etc. it is also the reason why most people make the fundamental attribution error. i.e. the phenomenon wherebye, an individual almost always attributes predispositional reasons to another person's behaviour/state and attributes situational reasons to his/her own behaviour.

on a slightly different not. politically, cruelty is often used as a means to spread FEAR, which is a great tool for keaping the masses loyal or under your control.

thats about it for now. srry if i went on too long. you an asses whether these factors should be deemed as survival or sinfulness.{which again depends on perspective lol}

hey this took time to write. darn page change.

I think that she cries out with strawberry gashes all over, all over.

what the?

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I think that she cries out with strawberry gashes all over, all over.

i think the baby is borrred.