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Both at their best!

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/MAN_zps0d75a08a.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SD_zps1c988e9b.jpg

So we're using the 2nd Mandrakk?

In any case, imo, Synnar wins.

Originally posted by operator616
So we're using the 2nd Mandrakk?

In any case, imo, Synnar wins.

The most powerful Mandrakk.

Madrakk and it isn't even close then.

Originally posted by Golgo13
The most powerful Mandrakk.

That would be the 1st then. But my problem with Mandrakk is that he was a threat to 52 universes-wide multiverse.

Though i can understand why people rank him so high, when they take into account the meta textual tone set for the story (that only superman's story can beat Mandrakk) -- something which i don't necessarily agree with. Because i believe high end multiversal beings can beat him as well.

Mandrakk(I) was the negative aspect of the Primal Monitor itself-- the aspect tainted by initial contact with the stories found in the 'germ world'. That said, it was made abundantly clear that the only thing(s) in creation capable of defeating him were: Superman's fundamental character-story, housed within a specifically designed/dues ex machina Thought-Robot capable of adapting instantly to counter any threat, no matter how powerful(ie. the Cosmic Armor.) The more powerful Mandrakk became, the more powerful the CA became to oppose him, and vice versa-- they were beyond the finite parameters of universal/multiversal, imo. They were literally the 'essence of story': all good vs. all evil, that has ever existed-- a self-assembling hyper story, as Morrison dubbed it.

Anyway, Mandrakk wins.

Yup, mandrakk wins.

Originally posted by Galan007
Mandrakk(I) was the negative aspect of the Primal Monitor itself-- the aspect tainted by initial contact with the stories found in the 'germ world'. That said, it was made abundantly clear that the only thing(s) in creation capable of defeating him were: Superman's fundamental character-story, housed within a specifically designed/dues ex machina Thought-Robot capable of adapting instantly to counter any threat, no matter how powerful(ie. the Cosmic Armor.) The more powerful Mandrakk became, the more powerful the CA became to oppose him, and vice versa-- they were beyond the finite parameters of universal/multiversal, imo. They were literally the 'essence of story': all good vs. all evil, that has ever existed-- a self-assembling hyper story, as Morrison dubbed it.

Anyway, Mandrakk wins.

Both Thought Robot and Mandrakk were physical beings, they were being hurt physically, that was pretty clear as well. When Mandrakk unleashed a blast of a heat equivalent to "10 billion suns", Thought Robot was hurt badly. A single galaxy contains billions of stars so that doesn't exactly support your stance here.

They battled on the Nil.

Also, Mandrakk was feeding on the universes, gradually.

Synnar wins.

I think it's best to disregard any attempt by a writer to quantify anything. Generally, they don't know wtf they're talking about.

10 Billion suns here, 1 million supernovas there, Flash emptied a Korean city at a hair under lightspeed when the math checks out to some quadrillions of times lightspeed. By my math each Green Lantern is responsible for patrolling about 70 million galaxies (that number of course doubles if you use the original 3600 Lantern count). I was just reading something (can't remember) where another galaxy was said to be 50-60 thousand lightyears away, which is all great until you realize the Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across and Andromeda (the nearest non-dwarf galaxy) is 2.5 million light years away.

Just throw numbers out, writers are shit.

Originally posted by operator616
Both Thought Robot and Mandrakk were physical beings, they were being hurt physically, that was pretty clear as well. When Mandrakk unleashed a blast of a heat equivalent to "10 billion suns", Thought Robot was hurt badly. A single galaxy contains billions of stars so that doesn't exactly support your stance here.
They were metaphysical concepts given physical form(not unlike the Endless in that regard, I suppose.) The embodiment of all good vs. the embodiment of all evil: the essence of story at a fundamental level. It is a difficult concept to grasp-- most don't(or won't, rather), but it's true nonetheless.


Also, the '10 billion suns attack' didn't cause Thought-Robot any visible damage at all...

Bottom panel: Mandrakk blasts Thought-Robot with "the heat of ten billion suns":
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17188872_Final_Crisis_-_Superman_Beyond_002-017.jpg

Next page, top panel: Thought-Robot is already back on the offensive, and appears completely unharmed:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17188885_Final_Crisis_-_Superman_Beyond_002-018.jpg

Won't? So where exactly was it stated that it was the embodiment of all good vs the embodiment of all evil?

Ok, i remembered the scene a bit incorrectly, though this is what the 3rd consecutive page shows:

http://i.imgur.com/1y5bjBh.jpg

Looks pretty hurt to me.

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, the '10 billion suns attack' didn't cause Thought-Robot any visible damage at all...

Bottom panel: Mandrakk blasts Thought-Robot with "the heat of ten billion suns":
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17188872_Final_Crisis_-_Superman_Beyond_002-017.jpg

Next page, top panel: Thought-Robot is already back on the offensive, and appears completely unharmed:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17188885_Final_Crisis_-_Superman_Beyond_002-018.jpg
In your own scans, he screams out in pain when that 10 billion sun heat blast hits him square and fair. That's a sign of him being hurt.

Originally posted by operator616
Both Thought Robot and Mandrakk were physical beings, they were being hurt physically, that was pretty clear as well. When Mandrakk unleashed a blast of a heat equivalent to "10 billion suns", Thought Robot was hurt badly. A single galaxy contains billions of stars so that doesn't exactly support your stance here.

They battled on the Nil.

Also, Mandrakk was feeding on the universes, gradually.

Should be noted that Mandrakk didn't only describe that attack as the heat of 10 billion suns, but also specifically as the "blood of 52 universes", whatever that means. Anyways, to say it's merely the heat of 10 billion suns is to deliberately exclude the line immediately prior.

Originally posted by operator616
Won't? So where exactly was it stated that it was the embodiment of all good vs the embodiment of all evil?

Ok, i remembered the scene a bit incorrectly, though this is what the 3rd consecutive page shows:

http://i.imgur.com/1y5bjBh.jpg

Looks pretty hurt to me. As my scans clearly depict: Mandrakk blasted Thought-Robot a few more times after the 'sun attack' before we saw any physical damage. Point: Thought-Robot was not physically harmed by the only attack Mandrakk numerically quantified, like you said.

We have no idea how powerful the blasts were that actually harmed TR.

Originally posted by Cogito
Should be noted that Mandrakk didn't only describe that attack as the heat of 10 billion suns, but also specifically as the "blood of 52 universes", whatever that means. Anyways, to say it's merely the heat of 10 billion suns is to deliberately exclude the line immediately prior.
"Blood of 52 universes" bit is vague and unquantifiable. I mean what does one even mean by the "blood of a universe". The 500 quadrillion degree heat blast, on the other hand, isn't.

Originally posted by Galan007
As my scans clearly depict: Mandrakk blasted Thought-Robot a few more times after the 'sun attack' before we saw any physical damage. Point: Thought-Robot was not physically harmed by the only attack Mandrakk numerically quantified, like you said.

We have no idea how powerful the blasts were that actually harmed TR.
But what your scans clearly depict also clearly contradicts you. He screams out in pain when the 10 billion sun heat blast hits him. That's being hurt, clear as day.

Originally posted by Epicurus
But what your scans clearly depict also clearly contradicts you. operator stated that Thought Robot was physically "hurt badly" by the sun attack. To the contrary, we saw no physical damage to TR from that attack whatsoever. That is the point.

Screaming in pain=/=sustaining any lasting physical damage... And by operator's own accord he misremembered the instance. So yeah...

Originally posted by Galan007
operator stated that Thought Robot was physically "hurt badly" by the sun attack. To the contrary, we saw no physical damage to TR at all from that attack. That is the point.

Screaming in pain=/=sustaining any lasting damage... And by operator's own accord he misremembered the instance. So yeah...
He screamed in pain like a b1tch. He was badly hurt in that instance. Your own scans proved you wrong. I also don't care about what operator said, though his exact words were "Thought Robot was hurt badly".

Mandrakk.

Originally posted by Epicurus
"Blood of 52 universes" bit is vague and unquantifiable. I mean what does one even mean by the "blood of a universe". The 500 quadrillion degree heat blast, on the other hand, isn't.

Are we to disregard every unquantifiable attack now?

Mandrakk specifically said:
"Can you feel it? The blood of 52 universes"

That he also said another bit right after doesn't change what he said first.

Originally posted by Cogito
Are we to disregard every unquantifiable attack now?

Mandrakk specifically said:
"Can you feel it? The blood of 52 universes"

That he also said another bit right after doesn't change what he said first.
Unquantifiable feats, by their very nature, don't add anything to a battleboard discussion about a hypothetical fight between 2 characters that have never met in a comic book before.

It's still unquanitifiable if one were to refer to the "blood of the 52 universes" bit, not to mention vague as sh1t. The 10 billion sun heat blast claim puts some perspective on the feat, not the universal blodd thingy.

Or do you want to claim that Mandrakk's attack reproduced the "ick" feeling Umar felt due to Eternity's blood times 52? Because that is...a pretty useless feat to use in a VS thread.

Originally posted by Epicurus
He screamed in pain like a *****. He was badly hurt in that instance. Your own scans proved you wrong. I also don't care about what operator said, though his exact words were "he was hurt badly". Lol, since when does screaming constitute a quantifiable amount of physical damage? Rhetorical question: it doesn't. Superman screamed after being blasted. In the very next panel he was already attacking Mandrakk again, with no visible damage sustained whatsoever-- he never so much as dropped to his knees from that attack. In the comic world he was absolutely not "hurt badly". In short: you are blatantly wrong.

Not that I expect you to admit when you're wrong or anything. You clearly like arguing with me for nothing but the sake of arguing. You've literally been doing it ever since you joined this site.


Anywho, you may have the last word, I'm over talking about this with you. Nothing good comes of 'debating' with a wall anyway.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Unquantifiable feats, by their very nature, don't add anything to a battleboard discussion about a hypothetical fight between 2 characters that have never met in a comic book before.

It's still unquanitifiable if one were to refer to the "blood of the 52 universes" bit, not to mention vague as sh1t. The 10 billion sun heat blast claim puts some perspective on the feat, not the universal blodd thingy.

Or do you want to claim that Mandrakk's attack reproduced the "ick" feeling Umar felt due to Eternity's blood times 52? Because that is...a pretty useless feat to use in a VS thread.

That's just stupid, tbh.

If the second line were never written, and Morrison had just left it as "Can you feel it? The blood of 52 universes" and the same effect happened, then by your convenient excuses that panel would have no bearing whatsoever in a forum fight. Ditto to any other unquantifiable attack.

That's just stupid, and a rule you made up on the spot for your own benefit.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, since when does screaming constitute a quantifiable amount of physical damage? Rhetorical question: it doesn't. Superman screamed after being blasted. In the very next panel he was already attacking Mandrakk again, with no visible damage sustained whatsoever. He never so much as dropped to his knees from that attack. In the comic world he was absolutely not "hurt badly" by the attack. In short: you are blatantly wrong.

Not that I expect you to admit when you're wrong or anything. You clearly like arguing with me for nothing but the sake of arguing. You've literally been doing it ever since you joined this site.

Anywho, you may have the last word. I over talking to a wall.
Screaming in pain equates to being hurt. You don't need to have cosmetic damage to showcase that you're hurt. Apparently such a simple fact of life escapes you somehow. When Adult Franklin was hit by a Celestial blast in Hickman's run, and he screamed out in a similar fashion, he was hurt. There are so many instances of characters screaming out in agony when being hit by a powerful energy blast, it's not even funny.

No, I only like to argue with you to death when I know that you're wrong. In this case, you clearly are.

Concession accepted, friend.

Originally posted by Cogito
That's just stupid, tbh.

If the second line were never written, and Morrison had just left it as "Can you feel it? The blood of 52 universes" and the same effect happened, then by your convenient excuses that panel would have no bearing whatsoever in a forum fight. Ditto to any other unquantifiable attack.

That's just stupid, and a rule you made up on the spot for your own benefit.
What, disregarding feats because of their unquantifiability? You might as well start arguing that logic is stupid then.

Which is exactly what I stated previously. But let's go ahead and pretend a 52x "ick" feeling is somehow relevant in this battle. Who knows, maybe Mandrakk could repulse Synnar to death with it.

Originally posted by Epicurus
What, disregarding feats because of their unquantifiability? You might as well start arguing that logic is stupid then.

Logic only applies to known values?

Come on now, you're better than that.

Originally posted by Cogito
That's just stupid, tbh.

If the second line were never written, and Morrison had just left it as "Can you feel it? The blood of 52 universes" and the same effect happened, then by your convenient excuses that panel would have no bearing whatsoever in a forum fight. Ditto to any other unquantifiable attack.

That's just stupid, and a rule you made up on the spot for your own benefit. You're right, Cog. The entire statement must be taken into consideration-- not just a cherry-picked portion of said statement, removed from context. It's a basic concept.

Originally posted by Cogito
Logic only applies to known values?

Come on now, you're better than that.
It applies to something which makes sense, even in a comic book context. Something which is applicable here. Not a 52x "ick" feeling that may or may not potentially repulse Synnar to death in this thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
As my scans clearly depict: Mandrakk blasted Thought-Robot a few more times after the 'sun attack' before we saw any physical damage. Point: Thought-Robot was not physically harmed by the only attack Mandrakk numerically quantified, like you said.

We have no idea how powerful the blasts were that actually harmed TR.

Ok, but we both agree that their battle was physical, correct?

Just so that everyone can see:

--

They were on Nil:

http://i.imgur.com/hTJmbtM.jpg

The Monitors were there at the time of the battle:

http://i.imgur.com/1eSllSb.jpg

Mandrakk was physically hurt as well:

http://i.imgur.com/zJlpjHh.jpg

--


Originally posted by Cogito
but also specifically as the "blood of 52 universes", whatever that means.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I mean what does one even mean by the "blood of a universe".

It's a reference to what Mandrakk was feeding on -- the multiverse (52 universes). That's why he along with the monitors are called vampire gods, they feed on the blood of universes:

http://i.imgur.com/AE153eT.jpg

Mandrakk's bio (from Final Crisis Secret Files) confirms his vampire nature:

http://i.imgur.com/qLTR7ri.jpg?1

He was feeding on the blood of the multiverse (52 universes). Hence why his comment: do you feel the blood of 52 universes (as in, do you feel my power)

Originally posted by Epicurus
It applies to something which makes sense, even in a comic book context. Something which is applicable here. Not a 52x "ick" feeling that may or may not potentially repulse Synnar to death in this thread.

Maybe if you keep repeating rules of convenience enough they'll catch on

Edit: ^ What I meant by "whatever that means" regarding the blood of 52 universes was that I don't know what that means in terms of an attack, but Mandrakk very clearly and deliberately said it in the context of an attack.

Originally posted by operator616
Ok, but we both agree that their battle was physical, correct?

Just so that everyone can see:

--

They were on Nil:

http://i.imgur.com/hTJmbtM.jpg

The Monitors were there at the time of the battle:

http://i.imgur.com/1eSllSb.jpg

Mandrakk was physically hurt as well:

http://i.imgur.com/zJlpjHh.jpg

--






It's a reference to what Mandrakk was feeding on -- the multiverse (52 universes). That's why he along with the monitors are called vampire gods, they feed on the blood of universes:

http://i.imgur.com/AE153eT.jpg

Mandrakk's bio (from Final Crisis Secret Files) confirms his vampire nature:

http://i.imgur.com/qLTR7ri.jpg?1

He was feeding on the blood of the multiverse (52 universes). Hence why his comment: do you feel the blood of 52 universes (as in, do you feel my power)
It's a vague and unquantifiable reference is what my point has been so far. Making someone feel the blood of a universe is no more relevant in a battleboard fight than the "ick" feeling Umar got when she witnessed Eternity bleeding to death when Dormammu went about assimilating him.

Originally posted by Cogito
Maybe if you keep repeating rules of convenience enough they'll catch on

Edit: ^ What I meant by "whatever that means" regarding the blood of 52 universes was that I don't know what that means in terms of an attack, but Mandrakk very clearly and deliberately said it in the context of an attack.
Maybe if we hope enough, a sufficiently strong ick feeling could overpower Synnar in this thread.

You already agree that this is an unquantifiable portion of the feat. Why on earth would you continue trying to gauge this feat with that particular statement(because universal bleeds are totally relevant to forum fight of course) is beyond me.

Originally posted by Epicurus
You already agree that this is an unquantifiable portion of the feat. Why on earth would you continue trying to gauge this feat with that particular statement(because universal bleeds are totally relevant to forum fight of course) is beyond me.

I'm arguing it because it was intentionally put there, so it means something. I'm not placing a specific value on what it means, only that it has a place in the context of their fight.

And how could the bleed not be relevant to a forum fight involving Mandrakk?

Originally posted by Cogito
I'm arguing it because it was intentionally put there, so it means something. I'm not placing a specific value on what it means, only that it has a place in the context of their fight.

And how could the bleed not be relevant to a forum fight involving Mandrakk?
How do you know it was intentionally put there? Did Morrison text you his specific intentions about that portion of Mandrakk's statement? Or are you a telepath who can read writers' minds whenever you like?

Not even referring to the same Bleed(revolving around the Monitors) here. I am referring to the unquantifiable cosmic space-time blood dribbles that the Thought Robot was supposed to feel that highly disturbing 52x "ick" sensation from.

Originally posted by Epicurus
How do you know it was intentionally put there? Did Morrison text you his specific intentions about that portion of Mandrakk's statement?

Yes, Morrison texted his specific intentions in a book called Superman Beyond

Originally posted by Cogito
Yes, Morrison texted his specific intentions in a book called Superman Beyond
So he mentioned the exact reason and values that would shed some light and/or explain the "blood of 52 universes" bit that Mandrakk mentions alongside the "heat of the 10 billiond suns" thing in his fight with the Cosmic Armor? Scans?

Originally posted by Epicurus
So he mentioned the exact reason and values that would shed some light and/or explain the "blood of 52 universes" bit that Mandrakk mentions alongside the "heat of the 10 billiond suns" thing in his fight with the Cosmic Armor? Scans?

Never said there was a value. Specifically said otherwise, in fact. Nice try

Originally posted by Cogito
Never said there was a value. Specifically said otherwise, in fact. Nice try
Failure to come up with the requested scans counts as a concession. Now run along with your tail tucked between your legs.

Ok Quan

Originally posted by Cogito
Ok Quan
Another concession. I am having the time of my life right now.

Do you want me to go find scans quantifying every batkick while I'm at it, master?

Or do I only need to find scans of values for attacks by new characters only, or maybe also old characters with new moves? This is getting pretty confusing, you're going to have to give me some more direction

Originally posted by operator616
Ok, but we both agree that their battle was physical, correct? Yes. Like I said earlier: they were physical embodiments of metaphysical concepts-- not unlike the Endless.

But yeah, both of them sustained physical damage during the battle, at some point. Never said otherwise.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. Like I said earlier: they were physical embodiments of metaphysical concepts-- not unlike the Endless.

But yeah, both of them sustained physical damage during the battle, at some point. Never said otherwise.

Good

Though i have a question for you: Where exactly would you rank Mandrakk? above Lucifer and Michael?

Just curious about your opinion.

I would *probably* have Lucifer higher, simply because it was made very clear that he was beyond conceptual embodiments...beyond anything aside from Yahweh, really.

Originally posted by operator616
Good

Though i have a question for you: Where exactly would you rank Mandrakk? above Lucifer and Michael?

Just curious about your opinion.

I don't think the relationship between the Primal Monitor and the Presence is clear enough to rank them accurately. If the Primal Monitor had been expanded upon more, that may have changed. IMO if the Primal Monitor is indeed meant to be greater than the Presence (and I'm certainly not saying it is), then I would rank Mandrakk above Lucifer/Michael purely because of that barring any other evidence.

But as it stands, I agree with Galan that Lucifer (& Michael) at this point ought to be considered greater based on a greater volume and less abstract set of feats.

Originally posted by operator616
Could it be the same being? Maybe. They definitely aren't the same being, imo. It was mentioned that Primal Monitor was initially unaware of the 'germ world'(multiverse) that had manifested within itself. That is the reason it created the original 'probes' to scout the multiverse in the first place: to further examine what it perceived as a 'flaw' within itself. This tells us that PM didn't create the multiverse-- not consciously, at least. Conversely, the Presence/God was obviously very much aware of the 'germ world', given that he purposefully/consciously created it as part of his grand scheme.

I believe Primal Monitor was meant to be a sentient representation of the blank paper/canvas on which RL comic book writers/artists portray their works-- and the Presence/God a representation of the RL comic book writers/artists themselves.

Originally posted by Galan007
They definitely aren't the same being, imo. It was mentioned that Primal Monitor was initially unaware of the 'germ world'(multiverse) that had manifested within itself. That is the reason it created the original 'probes' to scout the multiverse in the first place: to further examine what it perceived as a 'flaw' within itself. This tells us that PM didn't create the multiverse-- not consciously, at least. Conversely, the Presence/God was obviously very much aware of the 'germ world', given that he purposefully/consciously created it as part of his grand scheme.

I believe Primal Monitor was meant to be a sentient representation of the blank paper/canvas on which RL comic book writers/artists portray their works-- and the Presence/God a representation of the RL comic book writers/artists themselves.

That's what i'm thinking too in terms of the relationship between PM and Presence. cool post man.

Originally posted by Galan007
They definitely aren't the same being, imo. It was mentioned that Primal Monitor was initially unaware of the 'germ world'(multiverse) that had manifested within itself. That is the reason it created the original 'probes' to scout the multiverse in the first place: to further examine what it perceived as a 'flaw' within itself. This tells us that PM didn't create the multiverse-- not consciously, at least. Conversely, the Presence/God was obviously very much aware of the 'germ world', given that he purposefully/consciously created it as part of his grand scheme.

I believe Primal Monitor was meant to be a sentient representation of the blank paper/canvas on which RL comic book writers/artists portray their works-- and the Presence/God a representation of the RL comic book writers/artists themselves.

You're right, didn't take that into consideration.

I agree on the Primal Monitor part, as for The Presence......it depends, imo.

In Paul Jenkins' Hellblazer run, last arc, The Presence (at the time, the term wasn't invented yet, so they referred to him as "the creator" was outsmarted by John (there are other Hellblazer arcs who reference God, and don't exactly portray him as the writer)

In Supergirl v4 (Writer was Peter David), The Presence's full power was usurped.

Or like in that Swamp God story, where he became more powerful than "God", Tefe was generating God level voice to get rid of the word, that was written by Mark Millar, same guy, who 2 years later wrote JLA: Paradise Lost, same story which makes it pretty clear that the Presence is unbeatable, as it is "part of everything". Actually, some writers like Horrocks while writing Hunter: Age of Magic, pretty much ignored previous established concepts like the word and the voice (God) being separate and regarded them as the same being.....

Even in Mike Carey's Lucifer, Scoria digged into Yahweh's mind, and got usurped by the giant brothers.



There are more examples (i can reference if anybody wants) but point is, The Presence isn't always written the same, but then again, it could be said that Presence deliberately permitted all those showings, so meh (Even Lucifer thought he was rebelling when in fact he was fullfilling God's plan, this was shown in both, Sandman and Lucifer series). Still, i don't think that in all instances the Presence is meant to be the writer.

Mandrakk was killing even Monitors with one blast.

http://i.imgur.com/eb6jg2H.jpg

Not that important but I think that was impressive.

I agree that DC, just like Marvel and Indie, doesn't 'always' portray God as a RL writer/artist... There are always going to be different takes on a character of that... Magnitude.

However, this notion is fairly important to the discussion at hand because Morrison(the same guy who invented the Primal Monitor/Mandrakk/Thought-Robot) also had a very specific take on what 'God' truly is in the world of comics(ie. the RL writer/artist) when he wrote Animal Man.