Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

He's most consistant in character, so why do we hate him? I think well of Jefferson (but he wasn't consistant in his character), but Hamilton should be the role model for our nation.

1. He was one of the signers of the U.S. Constitution
2. He brought us the Federal Bank
3. He brought us the stock and bond market
4. He put his OWN INCOME into the Federal Bank
5. He advocated rights for African Americans (info found on video link)
6. He never owned slaves (which doesn't make him a good man YET, but the reason why is what makes him a great character). He thought it was inefficient and didn't allow ppl who had talents to use it well and promotes indigents. (info found on video link)
7. As an attorney, he never charged large fees, and would do work for free if the person couldn't afford it. (info found on video link)
8. He read the a law like a novel and would read Ancient Roman history in Latin (most of the founding fathers read/xscribed Latin). (info found on video link)
9. He left public office in debt and would often have to borrow money, the same money system he created. (info found on video link)
10. And I think he started the Republican Party.
11. He was shot to death by Burr in a dual.



Why do we hate him?


George Washington was born out of wedlock too. But he's exalted.


He was accused of being a son of a mulatto or whore in the Caribbean.
I think he had Jewish background or some sort of Jewish education.


If I am wrong about any of this info, please let me know.

WHY DO WE HATE HIM? HE FOUNDED SO MUCH FOR US!

CONSTITUTION
FEDERAL PAPERS
TREASURY
ABOLISH SLAVERY - and he had good reasons related to expounding a person's TALENT not color caste.


Hamilton is to History/economics as Tesla is to innovation.

Any information that I borrowed from the link below is in brackets as (info found on video link). That's just to save you time and to recognize that I didn't have previous knowledge of that info before watching the clip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us0iJ8AMA-Q

(15 min passed...couldn't edit.. ran out of time)

dual=duel

this link is funny, what if Hamilton knew the Matrix? (in other words, if you know the matrix, you can go back in time and change things)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSzDItvHhQM&mode=related& amp;search=thomas%20Jefferson%20bryce%20comstock%2
0Alexander%20Hamilton

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
(15 min passed...couldn't edit.. ran out of time)
Once again. Get your thoughts together and write them down in one post.

1. He was one of the signers of the U.S. Constitution

So were plenty of other people. Let's make them the greatest hero of the United States... Or not...


2. He brought us the Federal Bank

So he created a national bank, like so many other people in so many other country's did before him. Hardly something to admire him about. And if it is, change the name of the bank to his name.

3. He brought us the stock and bond market

Again, taking an invention of another country and putting it in your own because you have seen that it works elsewhere does not make you a great person it just makes you mildly intelligent.


4. He put his OWN INCOME into the Federal Bank

Wow, well that certainly makes him great. Weren't there people that died for the United States? Fought for it, paid an incredible price? I would rate that far more important then putting some money in some bank.

5. He advocated rights for African Americans (info found on video link)

Something to admire him for, not to make him the greatest American ever for though.

6. He never owned slaves (which doesn't make him a good man YET, but the reason why is what makes him a great character). He thought it was inefficient and didn't allow ppl who had talents to use it well and promotes indigents. (info found on video link)

This sentence makes no sense, he didn't allow people with talents to use them? What was he a communist? Anyways, him not using slaves because he thought it was inefficient does not make him a good person, it makes him somebody that looks at the economical side of an issue.


7. As an attorney, he never charged large fees, and would do work for free if the person couldn't afford it. (info found on video link)

How much did George Washington get for fighting the English? Certainly not the crown of the United States, and correct me if I'm wrong but he was offered something like that wasn't he? Certainly that's more impressive then not charging huge fees.


8. He read the a law like a novel and would read Ancient Roman history in Latin (most of the founding fathers read/xscribed Latin). (info found on video link)

Right, let's make somebody far more important then he was because he could read Latin... Who gives a damn, hardly makes him a better person and it definitely does not make him more important for the United States. It just shows he was educated.


9. He left public office in debt and would often have to borrow money, the same money system he created. (info found on video link)

Yeah, great going let's honor him because he was poor... What is this? Honor somebody because he wasn't your stereotype rich white guy? Also based on the previous points you made this kind of makes him an idiot.


10. And I think he started the Republican Party.

You think he did something like possibly start a political party, and that is reason to think of him as the best American ever?


11. He was shot to death by Burr in a dual.

This point is even more idiotic then all the others combined. He didn't die for his country he didn't die to save the people he loved he died in a freaking bar.

Originally posted by Fishy
1. He was one of the signers of the U.S. Constitution

So were plenty of other people. Let's make them the greatest hero of the United States... Or not...

Uhh...she wasn't making a case for him being a hero, she was making a case for him to not be hated so much. She was trying to bring him from a negative status to a positive status...not a positive status to a hero status.




2. He brought us the Federal Bank

Originally posted by Fishy

So he created a national bank, like so many other people in so many other country's did before him. Hardly something to admire him about. And if it is, change the name of the bank to his name.

Yes, it is something to be admired, greatly so. This is a fantastic achievement.



3. He brought us the stock and bond market

Originally posted by Fishy

Again, taking an invention of another country and putting it in your own because you have seen that it works elsewhere does not make you a great person it just makes you mildly intelligent.

Yeah because people were designing and implementing major financial systems left and right back in his day. Hardly something to be admired.

"Mildly intelligent"? I am fairly sure that his IQ was well above average.





9. He left public office in debt and would often have to borrow money, the same money system he created. (info found on video link)

Originally posted by Fishy

Yeah, great going let's honor him because he was poor... What is this? Honor somebody because he wasn't your stereotype rich white guy? Also based on the previous points you made this kind of makes him an idiot.

Far from an idiot, more like a victim of his own financial ideologies. It is quite easy to fall for the silent trap known as debt. How many extremely intelligent and well educated individuals do you know that have debt?




10. And I think he started the Republican Party.

Originally posted by Fishy

You think he did something like possibly start a political party, and that is reason to think of him as the best American ever?

"What is the Federalist Party. I'll take 18th century philosophy for $500 please."




11. He was shot to death by Burr in a dual.

Originally posted by Fishy

This point is even more idiotic then all the others combined. He didn't die for his country he didn't die to save the people he loved he died in a freaking bar.

He was shot on the bank of a river, the Hudson river to be exact. What is ironic about this is his son was killed on the bank of that river in a duel a few years earlier. I know he died in New York but I don't think he died in a bar.

Czarina,

Alexander Hamilton is far from hated. I have never run across hateful material on this gentleman. Here is a nice little tid-bit for you: Czarina, did you know that Alexander Hamilton is one of only two non-Presidents to appear on our American Money? Benjamin Franklin is the other one, FYI.


Fishy- All points I did not address of yours, I agreed with.

Czarina, you do know that the form of economic system he was promoting favored an industrial elite that would have political power over the agrarian industry and other simple labor? He had very different views of the future as compared to Jefferson. Burr shot him because he was claiming to have slept with Burr's daughter. You really ought to read more than just the textbooks if you want to get a good idea of how things really happened.

He was a great guy, don't get me wrong, but don't advertise him as an angel among demons.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
Czarina, you do know that the form of economic system he was promoting favored an industrial elite that would have political power over the agrarian industry and other simple labor? He had very different views of the future as compared to Jefferson. Burr shot him because he was claiming to have slept with Burr's daughter. You really ought to read more than just the textbooks if you want to get a good idea of how things really happened.

He was a great guy, don't get me wrong, but don't advertise him as an angel among demons.

Burr shot him because of an insult related to an election that Burr lost. Burr asked for an apology with three different letters and did not receive it so it escalated to a duel. Gentleman did things very formally back then and I wish we would do something similar nowadays...but instead of killing each other with bullets, you would street fight until either:

1. One of the "fighters" were unable to fight any longer. (Within reason.)

2. One of them gave up.

Yet another failure by Czarina.

Somebody ban the hell out of her.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
Why do we hate him?

No one hates him. He's on the $10 bill for his financial contributions, but he never became President because he was foreign born. Otherwise, he'd be right up there with his arch-nemesis, Thomas Jefferson.

How dare you formulate an intelligible response!

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina

11. He was shot to death by Burr in a dual.
Well, I'm convinced.

I am not aware that anyones "hates" Alexander Hamilton. If you ask the man on the street to give his opinion of Hamilton, he is unlikely to descend into a frothing rage.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
He's most consistant in character, so why do we hate him? I think well of Jefferson (but he wasn't consistant in his character), but Hamilton should be the role model for our nation.

1. He was one of the signers of the U.S. Constitution
2. He brought us the Federal Bank
3. He brought us the stock and bond market
4. He put his OWN INCOME into the Federal Bank
5. He advocated rights for African Americans (info found on video link)
6. He never owned slaves (which doesn't make him a good man YET, but the reason why is what makes him a great character). He thought it was inefficient and didn't allow ppl who had talents to use it well and promotes indigents. (info found on video link)
7. As an attorney, he never charged large fees, and would do work for free if the person couldn't afford it. (info found on video link)
8. He read the a law like a novel and would read Ancient Roman history in Latin (most of the founding fathers read/xscribed Latin). (info found on video link)
9. He left public office in debt and would often have to borrow money, the same money system he created. (info found on video link)
10. And I think he started the Republican Party.
11. He was shot to death by Burr in a dual.



Why do we hate him?


George Washington was born out of wedlock too. But he's exalted.


He was accused of being a son of a mulatto or whore in the Caribbean.
I think he had Jewish background or some sort of Jewish education.


If I am wrong about any of this info, please let me know.

WHY DO WE HATE HIM? HE FOUNDED SO MUCH FOR US!

CONSTITUTION
FEDERAL PAPERS
TREASURY
ABOLISH SLAVERY - and he had good reasons related to expounding a person's TALENT not color caste.


Hamilton is to History/economics as Tesla is to innovation.

Any information that I borrowed from the link below is in brackets as (info found on video link). That's just to save you time and to recognize that I didn't have previous knowledge of that info before watching the clip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us0iJ8AMA-Q

WHO?

He may have given us a bank, but he certianly is no Alexander the great. I think our country ignores his accomplishments because anyone named alexander will always pale in comparison to Alexander the great. Unless you conquer the known world before you are 30 you are doomed to be forgotten from history if your name is alex

Originally posted by dadudemon
He was shot on the bank of a river, the Hudson river to be exact. What is ironic about this is his son was killed on the bank of that river in a duel a few years earlier. I know he died in New York but I don't think he died in a bar. He died in Manhattan, but the duel happened in Jersey. Cliffs of Weehawken, to be exact.

Ummm...no one signed the Constitution. Yes, Hamilton was one of the principal players, but he didn't sign it.

Just thought I'd point it out.

Who hates Alexander Hamilton?

Thomas Paine is the best.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Uhh...she wasn't making a case for him being a hero, she was making a case for him to not be hated so much. She was trying to bring him from a negative status to a positive status...not a positive status to a hero status.


THANKS A MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Alexander Hamilton is far from hated. I have never run across hateful material on this gentleman. Here is a nice little tid-bit for you: Czarina, did you know that Alexander Hamilton is one of only two non-Presidents to appear on our American Money? Benjamin Franklin is the other one, FYI.


Fishy- All points I did not address of yours, I agreed with.


Thanks again. I tend to like BF in a very general way, I know he had his issues with wanting to be part of the British society, some stated he was a spy. He believed a man should marry an older women (but I wondered if that had to do with money), etc. Other then that, he seemed to be a very good statesman, esp. his contribution to innovation (same reason I like Thomas Jefferson, innovation).


Well, I have read and heard flaming things about him compared to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, I never heard about his relationship with Burr's daughter, that's news to me. But, I did hear that he was the son of a mixed women in the Caribbean and that was stated with disdain, and that she was a whore. I've heard that so many times.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Burr shot him because of an insult related to an election that Burr lost. Burr asked for an apology with three different letters and did not receive it so it escalated to a duel. Gentleman did things very formally back then and I wish we would do something similar nowadays...but instead of killing each other with bullets, you would street fight until either:

1. One of the "fighters" were unable to fight any longer. (Within reason.)

2. One of them gave up.


I agree.

(again) I didn't know he was accused of sleeping with Burr's daughter. That's just one of the many flaming accusations about him.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
Czarina, you do know that the form of economic system he was promoting favored an industrial elite that would have political power over the agrarian industry and other simple labor? He had very different views of the future as compared to Jefferson.
Which is a reason I dislike him, but in my opinion he gets the credit he deserves. Certainly over here (Belgium), I learned a lot about him when I studied US politics.

Originally posted by Fire
Which is a reason I dislike him, but in my opinion he gets the credit he deserves. Certainly over here (Belgium), I learned a lot about him when I studied US politics.




Sorry if this is going all over the place. The main idea is technological change and using elitist dollars to get us there. The old technology was agrarian (land, animal stock, human stock, etc.), AH knew we were better off in an industrial age and needed rich dollars to put us there. Just like the past, we are in the middle of a new technological change, stem cell, biotech. And guess who's going to fund it? Not the gov't. The elite, the ones with the largest discretionary income, the rich.

AH knew that our economy was changing, we were shifting from an agrarian society to an industrial society. He only favored the elite or rich b/c he knew they had the means for investments (which is important for an industrial system), nothing prejudice about it.

We are changing from a computer age to a bio-engineering age, we hear the arguments now in stem cell. We are literally creating new life, right before our eyes, it's reported on the news every few months. Our economy or market will change b/c we aren't going to need ppl for labor anymore, did you know that? It's a big deal with abortion and stem cell and technology. Big issue with the Catholic Church, the upcoming election, and investors.



An example, moral dileama:

Supposedly, dogs and cats came from Africa. Some of the myths are that they were created there, some sort of advanced dna modifications. Even if there are ppl who believe this, our society is against dog-fights and using living beings as slaves. Sorry this sounds strange, but have you ever heard a cat pur? It sounds like an EEPRON or a running computer program. Just listen to it, and compare it to an old computer that's being programmed.

So, in one hand, cloning is going to relieve us of manual labor and this has to be funded by the elite b/c the government tax dollars isn't paying for it, but on the other hand, even though it will relieve us of labor, there are ethical issues.

What does this have to do with Hamilton? He was for the future, and knew he need rich ppl's money to establish the industrial era. The industrial era was suppose to help us live a better life, but it was slave/peasant-penance labor all over again. It took wars for many to enjoy a middle class. Just like today. But this time, the issue isn't industrialization, this time, the issue is cloning and stem cell.

Justice Thomas is someone who is very much against abortion and will put state rights in the seat, causing (maybe 40 states??) to go against abortion. This will effect stem cell research (from the aborted babies) and biotech. So, is he promoting human-labor by delaying biotech's stem cell/cloning? We aren't going to be around to see how the future generation judges this man for being against stem cell (by going against abortion). This is the heart of a new economy, funded by the elite, who else is going to pay for it?

I don't see what that has to do with the fact that Hamilton favored the rich industrials over the general population. All you gave where 'his reasons' for doing it, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Uhh...she wasn't making a case for him being a hero, she was making a case for him to not be hated so much. She was trying to bring him from a negative status to a positive status...not a positive status to a hero status.

Quoting Czarina now

"but Hamilton should be the role model for our nation. "

Seems like he should be the greatest American ever in Czarina's eyes if you ask me.



I don't see why. Sure it was a smart thing to do, but that doesn't make him great. I mean he wasn't the first he took a system other country's already had and put it in his own. Of course a good steal is better then a bad invention but we shouldn't credit him for it like it was his own invention.




Ok I'll admit he was probably really smart, that doesn't change the fact that this was not his invention, like the other things good stealing is better then a bad invention but it was still just taking an invention made somewhere else and put it in your own country. Looking at what works elsewhere and putting it in your own country makes you smart it does not make you great.



This was just an easy reply to a point I felt made no sense. Of course smart people can be in debt. I don't see why he should be a hero because he was in debt though.



Still a political party is no reason to make somebody a hero.



Well that is somewhat better then a bar.

Originally posted by Fishy
Quoting Czarina now

"but Hamilton should be the role model for our nation. "

Seems like he should be the greatest American ever in Czarina's eyes if you ask me.



I don't see why. Sure it was a smart thing to do, but that doesn't make him great. I mean he wasn't the first he took a system other country's already had and put it in his own. Of course a good steal is better then a bad invention but we shouldn't credit him for it like it was his own invention.




Ok I'll admit he was probably really smart, that doesn't change the fact that this was not his invention, like the other things good stealing is better then a bad invention but it was still just taking an invention made somewhere else and put it in your own country. Looking at what works elsewhere and putting it in your own country makes you smart it does not make you great.



This was just an easy reply to a point I felt made no sense. Of course smart people can be in debt. I don't see why he should be a hero because he was in debt though.



Still a political party is no reason to make somebody a hero.



Well that is somewhat better then a bar.


A role model IS NOT the same as a hero. I am not making him into a hero that saved us from doom. Do we have any role models in this country? any? anyone? and no, i am not talking about exhaulting him on high, I am just asking to give him some respect besides putting him down for crappy stuff. He should be a role model just like George or BT Washtington or anyone else ppl can think of.

Czarina, grammar isn't a horrible thing, you know.

Originally posted by Kinneary
Czarina, grammar isn't a horrible thing, you know.


Grammar? I write the way I talk. (your not suppose to).

I use to write well, but then I was attacked. I use to speak very well, but then I was attacked for that as well. When I do anything well, I get attacked, so i don't do anything well at all and ppl don't get as much out of what they would of. and i already know not to end a sentence with a preposition.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
Grammar? I write the way I talk. (your not suppose to).

I use to write well, but then I was attacked. I use to speak very well, but then I was attacked for that as well. When I do anything well, I get attacked, so i don't do anything well at all and ppl don't get as much out of what they would of. and i already know not to end a sentence with a preposition.

You're such a conformist

Originally posted by AngryManatee
You're such a conformist


really? some would disagree, but if that's how you see it.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
He's most consistant in character, so why do we hate him? I think well of Jefferson (but he wasn't consistant in his character), but Hamilton should be the role model for our nation.

1. He was one of the signers of the U.S. Constitution
2. He brought us the Federal Bank
3. He brought us the stock and bond market
4. He put his OWN INCOME into the Federal Bank
5. He advocated rights for African Americans (info found on video link)
6. He never owned slaves (which doesn't make him a good man YET, but the reason why is what makes him a great character). He thought it was inefficient and didn't allow ppl who had talents to use it well and promotes indigents. (info found on video link)
7. As an attorney, he never charged large fees, and would do work for free if the person couldn't afford it. (info found on video link)
8. He read the a law like a novel and would read Ancient Roman history in Latin (most of the founding fathers read/xscribed Latin). (info found on video link)
9. He left public office in debt and would often have to borrow money, the same money system he created. (info found on video link)
10. And I think he started the Republican Party.
11. He was shot to death by Burr in a dual.



Why do we hate him?


George Washington was born out of wedlock too. But he's exalted.


He was accused of being a son of a mulatto or whore in the Caribbean.
I think he had Jewish background or some sort of Jewish education.


If I am wrong about any of this info, please let me know.

WHY DO WE HATE HIM? HE FOUNDED SO MUCH FOR US!

CONSTITUTION
FEDERAL PAPERS
TREASURY
ABOLISH SLAVERY - and he had good reasons related to expounding a person's TALENT not color caste.


Hamilton is to History/economics as Tesla is to innovation.

Any information that I borrowed from the link below is in brackets as (info found on video link). That's just to save you time and to recognize that I didn't have previous knowledge of that info before watching the clip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us0iJ8AMA-Q

I am often asked if I get my political and social opinons from Bill Maher. I always respond that I don't watch him to be informed of my own opinion, I watch him because he expresses my opinion.

Are you asking because Michael Eric Dyson thinks he was an American thug?

Here's a question right up your alley. Why does every black leader feel it's his or her responsability to exist in a constant state of weak Malcome X impressions?

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
He died in Manhattan, but the duel happened in Jersey. Cliffs of Weehawken, to be exact.

I submit to you that the west bank of the river of which I spoke, the Hudson, was the place he was shot. In other words, Weehawken, N.J., western bank of the Hudson River. I try to play off things as if I don't know them so people will not think I am so arrogant. It often discredits or causes my words to carry less weight. It is just something I do because I try not to come off as arrogant. He did not die in a bar, he died at a friends house at around 2 pm July 12, 1804. You may want to check on those facts as I am just going from memory.

Originally posted by Fishy
Quoting Czarina now

"but Hamilton should be the role model for our nation. "

Seems like he should be the greatest American ever in Czarina's eyes if you ask me.



I don't see why. Sure it was a smart thing to do, but that doesn't make him great. I mean he wasn't the first he took a system other country's already had and put it in his own. Of course a good steal is better then a bad invention but we shouldn't credit him for it like it was his own invention.

I see your point about his financial accomplishments. However, it is still a wicked awesome accomplishment. I am sure if someone setup a massively successful system"nowadays", they would win a Nobel prize or something.




Originally posted by Fishy
Ok I'll admit he was probably really smart, that doesn't change the fact that this was not his invention, like the other things good stealing is better then a bad invention but it was still just taking an invention made somewhere else and put it in your own country. Looking at what works elsewhere and putting it in your own country makes you smart it does not make you great.

I disagree. I really depends on what is being "copied". In this case, it happens to be our federal financial institutions. If it was copying the design of a building or something, then it wouldn't be quite so great.



Originally posted by Fishy
This was just an easy reply to a point I felt made no sense. Of course smart people can be in debt. I don't see why he should be a hero because he was in debt though.

She was trying to show how humble he was. She was showing that despite his upper class status, he took advantage of the same systems he designed and implemented...I agree, though, that it isn't really something to be admired. Debt is bad...bad as in bad...not bad as in good.

Originally posted by Fishy
Still a political party is no reason to make somebody a hero.

Agreed, considering that the party failed.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
Grammar? I write the way I talk. (your not suppose to).

I use to write well, but then I was attacked. I use to speak very well, but then I was attacked for that as well. When I do anything well, I get attacked, so i don't do anything well at all and ppl don't get as much out of what they would of. and i already know not to end a sentence with a preposition.
Haha, you're black.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Haha, you're black. She's very good at that.


Anyhow, Hamilton is valued...he's on the ten dollar bill....TEN DOLLAR BILL!!!

Originally posted by Bardock42
She's very good at that.


Anyhow, Hamilton is valued...he's on the ten dollar bill....TEN DOLLAR BILL!!!

He's got a point....Washington made it on the smallest $1 bill...In fact, Sacajawea made it on the somewhat gold $1 coin!!! (Sacajawea was never a president, though.)

I'd like to hear more thoughts on this.