(Un)Acceptable Forms of Indoctrination

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Zeal Ex Nihilo

Schecter
im not sure where you're going with this, but your entries for 'society' appear to be a straw man. if you're implying that 'jesus camp' can be used as a straw man for christianity, well you're correct. apart from that its just straw man vs. straw man. clash of the titans

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Like I said, they're stereotypical. I'm not trying to make them into straw men, but that's how they seem to be to me. Do you think that there is a better way to phrase them?

Schecter
depends on how you look at it.

if your argument is stereotypical society (of which i disagree) vs. the jesus camp wackos, then you're pitting an actual religious sect, doccumented on its unorthodox (and often times psychologically abusive toward their children) methods of practicing faith vs. a strawman of what society is.

if your argument is stereotypical society vs. stereotypical christians, than its no more rooted in reality than hulk vs. superman.

Robtard
of which, Superman wins...

Devil King

inimalist
lol @ post-modernism as a way to minimize the impact of oppression

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
If you don't want this to turn into a religion v. secularism thread, then don't make it one from the beginning. Why do the rest of us have to address this in the broad, cerebral sense, but you don't? All of your examples, every one of them, are meant to incite people to defend one position over the other. I understand that the thread would have brought all those points up eventually, but that's no reason to break your own rules.
It seemed to me to be the most convenient example. I suppose that, if I could edit my post, I could change some to stuff from Stormfront.org.

Because black people are the descendents of Ham and thus are cursed to be slaves. Obviously.

Christians are supposed to be separate from society, though.

Because the "Jesus Camp" crowd doesn't talk about tolerance among Christians as a main virtue? Paul writes a strong rebuke in 1 Corinthians 5, telling one church to order a member of their congregation either to straighten up or GTFO.

Would you or would you not say that mainstream culture is accurately portrayed by my statements?

Considering I wasn't QQing about oppression, your point is moot. I asked why some forms of indoctrination are considered acceptable while others are not.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
It seemed to me to be the most convenient example. I suppose that, if I could edit my post, I could change some to stuff from Stormfront.org.

And if you were to change your post, it would illustrate my point. Like it or not, the members of Stormfront are just as much a part of society as are Christians.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Because black people are the descendents of Ham and thus are cursed to be slaves. Obviously.

No, it's obvious that Christians feel their faith gives them the right to act superior.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Christians are supposed to be separate from society, though.

Yes, seperate from society in their actions and beliefs. But that's assuming that Christians are the only one with standards and morals. This simply isn't the case. Your examples speak towards this better than I can.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Because the "Jesus Camp" crowd doesn't talk about tolerance among Christians as a main virtue? Paul writes a strong rebuke in 1 Corinthians 5, telling one church to order a member of their congregation either to straighten up or GTFO.

And I said "christians who are educated in their own faith". How fortunate for Christianity that Paul isn't the only person who wrote on the subject of tolerance.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Would you or would you not say that mainstream culture is accurately portrayed by my statements?


Sure, in a lot of ways. But as I said, Christians don't have to posses a contrary opinion to popular culture.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Considering I wasn't QQing about oppression, your point is moot. I asked why some forms of indoctrination are considered acceptable while others are not.

I was editing my post while you typed this response, so it's a non-issue. But the point is that you are drawing a comparrison between one group's methods and another's. That is a moot point. Christians are a part of society, not it's opposite.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
No, it's obvious that Christians feel their faith gives them the right to act superior.
When one ignores the muddled morality that is pushed upon us and turns to the clarity of absolutism, it gives one the right to safeguard and enforce the morality of those absolutes. Anything less would be doing a disservice to humanity.

But you would undoubtedly argue that the society examples do not show a lack of morals and standards but different morals and standards.

Why?

In many ways they are called to do so.

Schecter
i just feel that putting children in the state of mortal terror as part of a religious ceremony is abusive, and that child abuse is universally regarded as immoral. this applies to the jesus camp flick of course. growing up catholic, i was put in the state of fear and guilt, but it was more of a general sense. it was like "you lead a bad life and you'll go to hell and suffer forever and ever" as opposed to "you read a harry potter book and you're gonna die....right...NOW!!!!....or maybe....right.....NOW!!!". so while the fear was present, it wasnt like i was shocked into a state of terror and broken down completely for brainwashing.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
When one ignores the muddled morality that is pushed upon us and turns to the clarity of absolutism, it gives one the right to safeguard and enforce the morality of those absolutes. Anything less would be doing a disservice to humanity.

How George W. Bush of you. As Ghandi said: Convictions should be slow to form, but once formed, they must be defended at all costs. Remember that a large number of these "Christians" of whom you speak are, as you said, indoctrinated. The whole point of your thread is to discuss (or illustrate) how one form of indoctrination is the result of another (or is somehow better?). You think you have absolute certainty in your beliefs, but so do others. And you've made the mistake of lumping the many groups into two: Christians and everyone else.

You asked in the opening post why it's right for "society" to say "Children should be allowed to form their own opinions and convictions.", while the opposite is true as well for Christians? Well, sorry, but making up your own mind is superior to being told from the age of 3 that Santa Claus is floating in the sky, watching everything you're doing, and that if you don't believe it, totally, that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity. Besides, if it's an absolute that Christianity is the best path, then they'll figure that out. Unless you think coming to the same conclusions you have is impossible for another independant, intelligent human being.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
you would undoubtedly argue that the society examples do not show a lack of morals and standards but different morals and standards.

Different, yes. Better? Maybe. But I don't need everyone to agree with me to make me feel better about my beliefs or morals. Remember, you are arguing that different morals equate to inferior morals. No one says Christians can't express their faith or believe in what they will. But any number of popular Christian personalities would condemn someone who understands it's just as much their right to do so, as it is the Christians.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Why?

Because for someone who suffered persecution, he wasn't awfully understanding. Again, speaking from a position of certainty doesn't make him right.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
In many ways they are called to do so.

This isn't the Roman Empire. For lack of a better term, Christianity is the state faith of the United States of America. And certainly no Christian has a problem with this notion, despite the rule of law we're supposed to enjoy in this country.

Bardock42
I never thought you'd make such a moral relativist point. True of course.

Devil King
I didn't realize I had.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Devil King
I didn't realize I had. Not you, gaybo.

Devil King
Originally posted by Bardock42
Not you, gaybo.

Could you be more specific?

Robtard
Originally posted by Devil King
Could you be more specific?

I think he was talking to 'the poster formerly known as PVS'.

Schecter
shhhh


im trying to remain inburrito

lord xyz
Originally posted by Devil King
Could you be more specific? He thinks it's funny to not be.

Bardiel13
Zeal Ex Nihilo... I think it's great you have something to believe in, I really do, but how could you not see that the practices in Jesus Camp would screw a kid up in two seconds? It's a form of brainwashing.
Don't kid yourself, you're obviously biased. If you saw people speaking in tongues and brainwashing sobbing children, and it was in the name of a different religion, you would be offended as well.
Also, it matter not what the bible says, I'm afraid. You list all the nice things that the bibles says, but how many devout American Chrisitans actually practice these? For many it doesn't stop with just "Homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle. It is impure in the eyes of God. We will not be afraid to speak the truth." It goes on with picketting, harrassment, and sometimes violence. Where is "Do unto others" while this is happening?
Sorry dude, but Christianity is far too flawed of a religion to be held so highly.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
The whole point of your thread is to discuss (or illustrate) how one form of indoctrination is the result of another (or is somehow better?).
Not quite. The intent of my thread is to wonder aloud why one form of indoctrination is acceptable while another is not.

If you'd like, I'll group them into Nazis and everyone else, too.

Justify this.

That is an incorrect statement. People have differing beliefs on what is "best." Even if a person happens to understand what is "best"--a rare occurrence--that person may not choose to embark upon that path.

Neither do I.

I am doing no such thing. While I do believe that--how terribly sithsaber of me--I am merely inquiring as to why some indoctrination is considered "good" while some is considered "bad."

And why would you say that this is wrong?

I don't see how he wasn't particularly understanding, but that's not really relevant anyway.

The one that gives you as much right to be an atheist as it does for me to be a theist?
Originally posted by Bardiel13
Zeal Ex Nihilo... I think it's great you have something to believe in, I really do, but how could you not see that the practices in Jesus Camp would screw a kid up in two seconds? It's a form of brainwashing.
And why is brainwashing wrong?

You don't even know my thoughts on the actual movie.

The "niceness" of the things written in the Bible has little to do with this discussion, although many people consider the idea that homosexuality is wrong as anything but nice.

Don't ask me. I don't picket, harass, or act violently.

I disagree. People are flawed. If all people followed the Christian lifestyle exactly as it is presented in the Bible, there would be no wrongdoing. There would be no violence, no war, no theft, no murder, no poverty, no STDs, no teenage pregnancies, no rape, no child molestation, no torture, no starvation, etc.

Bardiel13
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And why is brainwashing wrong?

I really hope you're trolling. Do you really find the concept of forcing a point of view via mindbreaking techniques in order to furthur any agenda acceptable?!



Fine, then. Tell me your thoughts on the film.



And this is usually from a religious point of view. I am yet to find one logical reason why homosexuality is detrimental to anything, without it having a religious base.



I'm sure you don't. However many do.



There you are wrong. Ask the bible what you do about rude children, homosexuals, individual disobedience, rape victims, or (I love this one) a wife who grabbed a guy's nads to help her husband fight said guy. Please reply to this requst.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Bardiel13
I really hope you're trolling. Do you really find the concept of forcing a point of view via mindbreaking techniques in order to furthur any agenda acceptable?!
You presume far too much. I merely asked a question.

Although I have not seen all of it, I found the majority of clips I found on YouTube to be goofy rather than detrimental. For instance, bringing in a cardboard cutout of President Bush. Goofy? Yes. Harmful? Praying for our elected leaders as Paul tells we ought to...no.

Another example: Fat chick yelling about how "you don't make heroes out of warlocks." How is this harmful, exactly? J.K. Rowling doesn't sell an extra two hundred books or so.

Thirdly, the part where the fat chick is dumping water on the kids' hands. Goofy? Yes, especially considering that it was just something like an Aquafina bottle. Harmful? A symbolic act that is analogous to baptism...no.

What's your point?

I asked the Bible. The Bible said, "'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'" Then it said, "In the past, the held us like prisoners, but our old selves died, and we were made free from the . So now we serve God in a new way with the Spirit, and not in the old way with written rules."

Bardiel13
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You presume far too much. I merely asked a question.

I think the answer is obvious. It sounded as if you were challenging my view on brainwashing.



I'm not saying the film is harmful at all. I'm saying the practices depicted in the documentary were.



You are challenging society's view of right and wrong, correct? I am saying those who believe homosexuality is wrong and/or immoral are in turn wrong in the point of view due to the lack of logic behind it.
But, tell me. What's your view on the subject?



God said kill them with rocks. Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Who are you going to listen to? God or Jesus?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Bardiel13
I think the answer is obvious. It sounded as if you were challenging my view on brainwashing.
If you'll note, I never once made a statement that would imply such a thing.

...The practices being some of those that I highlighted.

Individual opinions on homosexuality are irrelevant to this discussion.

Jesus. He came to make clear the Law and free us from it.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
I should clarify that last point: While the death penalty was prescribed for adultery, Christ came to give humans grace, that our sins might be overlooked and saved--that way we, who deserve the spiritual death penalty, might be forgiven.

In addition, the Pharisees were being extremely hypocritical and downright evil. Their entire purpose for bringing the woman before Jesus was to try to trap him--and they were willing to kill a woman to do so! (Notice that the man involved was not present at the time, despite the woman being "caught in the act" of adultery.)

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Not quite. The intent of my thread is to wonder aloud why one form of indoctrination is acceptable while another is not.

The road to hell blah,blah,blah. My point is that you've lumped the whole of society into us v. them. This simply is not the case. And, more over, it isn't the case because you've decided that society is an institution against which Christians need to protect themselves. That's obvious since you've said a number of times that Christian certainty trumps all other forms of irrational certainty. One form isn't acceptable.. But neither is it acceptable to imagine an institution of indoctrination when there isn't one. And in this case, there isn't one becuase you've decided that it's Christians against everyone else.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
If you'd like, I'll group them into Nazis and everyone else, too.

I'm sure you'd like for me to say that isn't far off from the facts, but I don't believe it is. I'm not comparring Christians in America to Nazis. I'm saying that the Nazis in America have as much right to exist as do the Christians. I'm sorry if your religious views prevent you from seeing the seperation of church and state, but it exists nonetheless. And, more importantly, it exists despite the ardent religious views of many people in this country.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Justify this.

Spoken like someone who hits the pedal and drinks the kool-aid. Not very well played. Did you not reach your religious conclusions after independant thought and much doubt? If not, then there is no justification for my statement.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
That is an incorrect statement. People have differing beliefs on what is "best." Even if a person happens to understand what is "best"--a rare occurrence--that person may not choose to embark upon that path.

And there are 2000 years of Christian history to prove you right. So, one might conclude that one doesn't choose the "right path", be they Christian or a member of the greater society, simply because they've decided that Jesus is right for them.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Neither do I.

Were that the case, I doubt there would be Christian missionaries in the third world...or waking down Market Street. You wouldn't utilize what you consider to be a lifetime of study and conclusions to legitimize telling people they're wrong for not believing as you do.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I am doing no such thing. While I do believe that--how terribly sithsaber of me--I am merely inquiring as to why some indoctrination is considered "good" while some is considered "bad."

No, what you're doing is comparing two things, one of which doesn't exist. How you can say you aren't is a mystery to me.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And why would you say that this is wrong?

I didn't say it was wrong. If anything, I said they were wrong.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I don't see how he wasn't particularly understanding, but that's not really relevant anyway.

Because he's a total bastard, that's why.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
The one that gives you as much right to be an atheist as it does for me to be a theist?

Once again you seem to be WRONG! It wasn't Christian graciousnss that founded this country. In fact, it was logic and reason that allowed this country not to end up as a theocracy, despite the irrational wishes of a number of the founding fathers. The fact that you would actually attribute my freedoms to your religion is exactly at the heart of your issues.

I understand you think I'm only painting myself as an example of the hypocrisy you suppose to be addressing. But I don't consider myself absolutely right, well-informed or blessed among my fellow humans. The inherrent arrogance of your position shows through in a number of your posts. And the bad part, is that you seem to actually enjoy being called out on it.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I asked the Bible. The Bible said, "'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'" Then it said, "In the past, the held us like prisoners, but our old selves died, and we were made free from the . So now we serve God in a new way with the Spirit, and not in the old way with written rules."

So you asked th bible and it said that god second guessed himself.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
The road to hell blah,blah,blah. My point is that you've lumped the whole of society into us v. them. This simply is not the case. And, more over, it isn't the case because you've decided that society is an institution against which Christians need to protect themselves. That's obvious since you've said a number of times that Christian certainty trumps all other forms of irrational certainty. One form isn't acceptable.. But neither is it acceptable to imagine an institution of indoctrination when there isn't one. And in this case, there isn't one becuase you've decided that it's Christians against everyone else.
Like I said, I didn't intend to do so, and, if I could edit, I would have added in stuff about neo-Nazism and the KKK...it's just that Christianity came to mind because I was thinking about Jesus Camp.

Just because something is considered "mainstream" doesn't mean it is not any less a form of indoctrination. It's just a more subtle form.

I don't believe I ever said otherwise.

My own "ardent religious views" do not prevent me from seeing the separation of church and state.

All I asked for was a justification of why what you said was superior to "brainwashing." If you cannot justify it aside from "it just is," then you have fallen into the trap of a form of absolutism--much like if I were to say something "is just wrong."

I would agree.

I forgot that salvation is an unworthy goal.

How you can say that mainstream culture doesn't act as indoctrination is a mystery to me.

Then, rather than playing the semantics game, why are they wrong?

Again, irrelevant, although I would say that he wasn't.

Support this claim with evidence, although I made no claim that it was Christian graciousness that founded the country. Although, I could say that the Declaration of Independence clearly shows a theistic mindset--one that was a part of the creation of America as a democracy.

Again, I have done no such thing. You seem to have issues with seeing things where there are none...I recall in another thread where you accused sithsaber and myself of desiring the Rapture so that the heathens would be tormented--which is, of course, an incorrect statement that demonstrates your beliefs about the evangelical Christian mindset.

I do not consider myself to be absolutely right, only the Word.

Of course not, although I'm quite certain that I've gone over this in other threads.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lord xyz
He thinks it's funny to not be. Not really.

Originally posted by Devil King
Could you be more specific?

Well. PVS said that Jesus Camp and Societies kind of indoctrination are similiar. And they are if you don't see any moral absolutes, now aren't they? On a grander scale that is.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Penis is a moral absolute.

Ushgarak
Zeal loses credibility from his very first comparison.

"Don't believe anything without proof"... well, for a start, he means evidence, not proof. But what the refers to here is the scientific method, which is the apporach that most fundamentally clashes with religion and inspires many of the other points.

But this approach is not indoctrainted. if it ever was that would be a very very bad thing indeed. People should not- and generally are not- forced to adopt the scientific view as it is the single view drummed into them.

Instead, the scientific method has been demonstrated and its superiority accepted- it has, after all, given us all the technological comforts of the modern world from medicine to computers.

To say it has been indoctrinated into people is nonsense. Basic science classes are thererto demonstrate what Science is, and why it works, not to force it down people's throats with no alternative. It's done well because it is right, not because there was no choice involved.

People forget that science does not have a pre-built view or agenda that would make it suitable for such a criticism. it is simply the deduction of how the world works by observation and experimentation of and in that world. Scientists can have agendas, that's fine, but that's different from saying Science itself is one that can be so overliad onto people's minds.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
You confuse the scientific method with the idea of extreme skepticism.

leonheartmm
LMFAO! zeal, STOP! seriously. this has to be about the worst way of rationalising such negetive beleifs and practices. i mean, you CUD have played a more tolerant and apolegetic angle to give the impression of positivity. seems like your getting more clueless. all kind of thought originates one way or another. the fact that you targetted the idea that all ideas are spread through socialisation as a base to consider that there is no difference between jesus camp and the alternative is silly. simlpy because the difference is in the CONTENT of the messages, one is logical and the other one is not. now before you start with the whole. "logic is also defined by a certain part of society", the answer is simple, logic, as defined currently{by that brand} fits in sensibly with reality and practical world where its affects can be seen and reasoned to be positive as opposed to the content of godmatic indoctrination at jesus camp which is negetive and not based in any way on logical bases{even if at times, segments might resemble sumthing apparently logical. that is necessity of SOME practicality and coincidence, or the rare good intention of the author perhaps}

chithappens
Is he trying to say nothing is right or wrong?

leonheartmm
yup, in a sneaky way{no offence}. its like the usual anti logical arguments "if in formal logic no premises takes priority over another in the spirit of unbiased rationale, then its impossible to have right and wrong, or good and bad, or any moral development based in logic."
alternately "if any premise doesnt take precedence over another, then why prefer life over death? just goes to show how stupid this logic of yours is". forgtetting that infact we as humans, do and SHOULD have biases in favour of the axioms which give rise to us and propositions that supporyt them{i.e. self preservation, desire for happiness, avoidance of suffering etc etc} as we logically know it to be true that we ARE based on those biases.

chithappens
Agreed. Don't really have anything to add to that.

Innately though, no one would be more "correct" than another simply from the basis of believing "more" or some crap like that.

Schecter
Originally posted by Bardock42

Well. PVS said that Jesus Camp and Societies kind of indoctrination are similiar. And they are if you don't see any moral absolutes, now aren't they? On a grander scale that is.

if you are running with the 'feceman is PVS's sock account' gag (possible truth): hahahaha poop

if you are attempting to interpret what i said: wrong.

Robtard
Originally posted by Devil King
Once again you seem to be WRONG! It wasn't Christian graciousnss that founded this country. In fact, it was logic and reason that allowed this country not to end up as a theocracy, despite the irrational wishes of a number of the founding fathers. The fact that you would actually attribute my freedoms to your religion is exactly at the heart of your issues.

I understand you think I'm only painting myself as an example of the hypocrisy you suppose to be addressing. But I don't consider myself absolutely right, well-informed or blessed among my fellow humans. The inherrent arrogance of your position shows through in a number of your posts. And the bad part, is that you seem to actually enjoy being called out on it.

Please let him know that the early settlers came to the "new world" to flee persecution and to have religious freedom. Not start "Jesus Land" where people are indoctrined and not free to express themselves as they see fit.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
All I asked for was a justification of why what you said was superior to "brainwashing." If you cannot justify it aside from "it just is," then you have fallen into the trap of a form of absolutism--much like if I were to say something "is just wrong."

It's superior to brainwashing because it isn't brainwashing. I never said "it just is" superior. I can't justify the superiority of something I don't see existing.

Devil King
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well. PVS said that Jesus Camp and Societies kind of indoctrination are similiar. And they are if you don't see any moral absolutes, now aren't they? On a grander scale that is.

No

Bardock42
Originally posted by Devil King
No

Wasn't really a question. More of a statement with a question mark at the end.


I meant FeceMan by the way. Odd.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Me? Say that there are no rights and wrongs?

Of course not. I could, however, argue it on the basis that morality is merely a construct of humans and thus as pointless as the concept of gender.

Not that I believe that, mind you, but I enjoy toying with the idea.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Me? Say that there are no rights and wrongs?

Of course not. I could, however, argue it on the basis that morality is merely a construct of humans and thus as pointless as the concept of gender.

Not that I believe that, mind you, but I enjoy toying with the idea. No, no, I know you don't believe that. But that's really what makes your argument valid, in my opinion.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I could, however, argue it on the basis that morality is merely a construct of humans and thus as pointless as the concept of gender.

You could say the same for religion.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Could. But I would argue it in the same manner.

Devil King
Originally posted by Bardock42
Wasn't really a question. More of a statement with a question mark at the end.


I meant FeceMan by the way. Odd.

When I said no, I was addressing the comprable indoctrination methods used by society and religion.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Devil King
When I said no, I was addressing the comprable indoctrination methods used by society and religion. Odd. I was addressing the idea that neither indoctrination is worse.

Devil King
Originally posted by Bardock42
Odd. I was addressing the idea that neither indoctrination is worse.

And I've been addressing that one isn't indoctrination.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Devil King
And I've been addressing that one isn't indoctrination. I see.


Well.



It is though.

Devil King
Originally posted by Bardock42
It is though.

How?

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
I see.


Well.



It is though.

Do you not see a difference between someone telling you:

a) Find your own path (which can include Jesus or other)

b) This is the only way to be, if you don't want to suffer.

Devil King
Well, there's a difference between indoctrination and how far an individual chooses to take something.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Robtard
Do you not see a difference between someone telling you:

a) Find your own path (which can include Jesus or other)

b) This is the only way to be, if you don't want to suffer. I do.


I don't see the real difference between being brought up in a family that values the scientific methods over all, that see humanitarian ideals as the non plus ultra, that think equality for all is a moral absolute....and that teaches (indoctrinates) their children from an early age to value those things too and...well...Jesus Camp indoctrination (the one is more organized and stronger, granted), but I mean morally.

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
I do.


I don't see the real difference between being brought up in a family that values the scientific methods over all, that see humanitarian ideals as the non plus ultra, that think equality for all is a moral absolute....and that teaches (indoctrinates) their children from an early age to value those things too and...well...Jesus Camp indoctrination (the one is more organized and stronger, granted), but I mean morally.

One thing that separates the two, how often does a "scientific method" leaning parent, guardian and/or teacher purpose (indoctine) their ideas onto the 'youth' with the claus of "or else this will happen", i.e. something negative will result, if the teaching isn't followed?

Bardiel13
From what I've seen in this thread and the massive wave of necroposts by this member, I'd say he's a troll.

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardiel13
From what I've seen in this thread and the massive wave of necroposts by this member, I'd say he's a troll.

The 'Lord of Poop' may be many things; I don't think he's a troll though, at least not a professional one.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Robtard
One thing that separates the two, how often does a "scientific method" leaning parent, guardian and/or teacher purpose (indoctine) their ideas onto the 'youth' with the claus of "or else this will happen", i.e. something negative will result, if the teaching isn't followed? No, and I didn't say there aren't practical differences. I just said that from a truly objective view they are morally similar.

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
No, and I didn't say there aren't practical differences. I just said that from a truly objective view they are morally similar.

How so, when one relies heavily on fear as a persuasion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to hear a Christian say, "no worries if you don't accept Jesus as your personal savior, I'm sure you'll get into heaven regardless."

Victor Von Doom
I think Bardock may be talking about value.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I think Bardock may be talking about value. Good call. Me only having stated it two times might have been too subtle.

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
Good call. Me only having stated it two times might have been too subtle.

It was irrelevant, both times.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Robtard
It was irrelevant, both times. N-no.

It was the point I made before you replied to me.

It was very relevant. Your reply to me on the other hand...

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
N-no.

It was the point I made before you replied to me.

It was very relevant. Your reply to me on the other hand...

STFU, you blubbering idiot.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Bardiel13
From what I've seen in this thread and the massive wave of necroposts by this member, I'd say he's a troll.
Oh, I'm far from a troll. My "necroposts" are useful, perhaps borderline trolling, but they were created for a purpose that was not to incite flames.

Bardiel13
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Oh, I'm far from a troll. My "necroposts" are useful, perhaps borderline trolling, but they were created for a purpose that was not to incite flames.

And what was that? An attempt to bury this thread and pray people forget about it?

Sadako of Girth
Indoctrination = Poop.

Czarina_Czarina
everyday in the news, there's another report of a random shotting, and the best thing we can talk about is why Jesus movies or faith is indoctrinations?

Zeal Ex Nihilo

Devil King
Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
everyday in the news, there's another report of a random shotting, and the best thing we can talk about is why Jesus movies or faith is indoctrinations?

Yeah, because soul switching and hating yourself is a much more valuable waste of our time.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Bardiel13
And what was that? An attempt to bury this thread and pray people forget about it? He wanted to show the general pointlessness of one poster in specific.

Pretty colourful presentation in my opinion.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Bardock42
He wanted to show the general pointlessness of one poster in specific.

Pretty colourful presentation in my opinion.
You win one Internets. I take it from Bardiel13 because of its failure.

Adam_PoE

Bardiel13

Bardock42
Originally posted by Bardiel13
Still waiting for that reason.

Nice diversion tactic, by the way. It didn't work, but I give you points for effort. Originally posted by Bardock42
He wanted to show the general pointlessness of one poster in specific.

Pretty colourful presentation in my opinion.

Bardiel13
Originally posted by Bardock42


Didn't see it. Boy do I feel like a silly willy roll eyes (sarcastic)

Bardock42
Originally posted by Bardiel13
Didn't see it. Boy do I feel like a silly willy roll eyes (sarcastic)

Why?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The premise of your argument, i.e. that society practices indoctrination, is false; for a society to practice indoctrination, the body of individuals that compose that society must share the same doctrine, ideology, or principles.
And yet, "society"--a term I was using as not strictly defined by the denotation, as noted in the original post--does have such qualities.
Originally posted by Bardiel13
Still waiting for that reason.

Nice diversion tactic, by the way. It didn't work, but I give you points for effort.
LOLCATZ ATTACK

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And yet, "society"--a term I was using as not strictly defined by the denotation, as noted in the original post--does have such qualities.

No, it does not; society or "mainstream culture" as you describe it, is composed of a body of individuals with diverse doctrines, ideologies, and principles. There is no universally shared or unifying beliefs, therefore there can be no indoctrination.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, it does not; society or "mainstream culture" as you describe it, is composed of a body of individuals with diverse doctrines, ideologies, and principles. There is no universally shared or unifying beliefs, therefore there can be no indoctrination.
I disagree.

Mainstream culture is why People magazine exists...and that's just one of many of its virtues.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I disagree.

Mainstream culture is why People magazine exists...and that's just one of many of its virtues.

By all means, identify the universally shared or unifying beliefs of all the individuals that compose "mainstream culture."

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
By all means, identify the universally shared or unifying beliefs of all the individuals that compose "mainstream culture."
You've seen them in the first post.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You've seen them in the first post.

I asked you to identify the universally shared or unifying beliefs of all the individuals that compose "mainstream culture."

Many who you would consider to be a part of "mainstream culture" do not share all of those beliefs.

Smell the glove
What a stupid thread

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I asked you to identify the universally shared or unifying beliefs of all the individuals that compose "mainstream culture."

Many who you would consider to be a part of "mainstream culture" do not share all of those beliefs.
I disagree.
Originally posted by Smell the glove
What a stupid thread
GTFO, Whirly.

Smell the glove
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I disagree.

GTFO, Whirly.

WTF are you talking about dickwad

Zeal Ex Nihilo
b& noob

Smell the glove
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
b& noob

Where you are just a bit slow.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
I was about to post a reply pointing out that what you just wrote isn't a complete though, but then I decided against letting myself be trolled.

Have a nice--albeit truncated--stay at KMC.

Smell the glove
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I was about to post a reply pointing out that what you just wrote isn't a complete though, but then I decided against letting myself be trolled.

Have a nice--albeit truncated--stay at KMC.

What are you going on about you damn fool.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And yet, "society"--a term I was using as not strictly defined by the denotation, as noted in the original post--does have such qualities.

So, all Christians think homosexuality is wrong? So, all members of society think homosexuality is right or "normal"?

Smell the glove
Originally posted by Devil King
So, all Christians think homosexuality is wrong? So, all members of society think homosexuality is right or "normal"?

Well is being gay right? I mean is it natural?

Devil King
Originally posted by Smell the glove
Well is being gay right? I mean is it natural?

Don't waste your time or effort on me.

Smell the glove
Originally posted by Devil King
Don't waste your time or effort on me.

Why? Am I not your type?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I disagree.

Disagreeing does not identify the universally shared or unifying beliefs of all the individuals that compose "mainstream culture."

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Mainstream culture is why People magazine exists...and that's just one of many of its virtues.

So, what is the publication of record for Christians?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Disagreeing does not identify the universally shared or unifying beliefs of all the individuals that compose "mainstream culture."
Notice that this does not actually represent the whole of society, just the stereotyped mainstream culture.
Originally posted by Devil King
So, what is the publication of record for Christians?
If it makes you feel better, Christianity is the reason for the existence of Today's Christian Woman.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
If it makes you feel better

It was a silly statement. And it was an even more silly example. I don't understand how you thought that People magazine was going to illustrate your point. Does it make you feel better?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Notice that this does not actually represent the whole of society, just the stereotyped mainstream culture.

The emphasis being stereotyped, i.e. unrepresentative generalization about an entire population.

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