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So everyoen thinks Classic MOlecule man is teh uber. Can he take out MJJ? And is MJJ inferior to the LT? How does this fight go?

Classic Molecule Man curbtsomps the other two. No question.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Classic Molecule Man curbtsomps the other two. No question.

How? Certainly nothing less than Omniversal power can take out MJJ. Not even then. Merlyn has it. When has classic Molecule man EVEr shown Omniversal plus powers? Reasoning failed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Classic Molecule Man curbtsomps the other two. No question.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
How? Certainly nothing less than Omniversal power can take out MJJ. Not even then. Merlyn has it. When has classic Molecule man EVEr shown Omniversal plus powers? Reasoning failed.
A single blast of his could have destroyed several billion dimensions.

Originally posted by Air Legend


Prove it. cuz I dont' see how MJJ is going to lose to anyone. Other than an omniversal plus power.

Originally posted by King Kandy
A single blast of his could have destroyed several billion dimensions. And that blast is what to MJJ? Hell the LT has held more than that in the palm of his hand. Try again.

Well MJJ can warp as many universes as he want's they'll all get destroyed in one blast by MM.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well MJJ can warp as many universes as he want's they'll all get destroyed in one blast by MM.

Yes, But Can one destroy the universe MJJ lives in if he doesn't want it destroyed? yes or no?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yes, But Can one destroy the universe MJJ lives in if he doesn't want it destroyed? yes or no?
Yes.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And that blast is what to MJJ? Hell the LT has held more than that in the palm of his hand. Try again.

You were told,

MM blocked Beyonder's full power.

The Multiverse was and is Infinite:

In an analogy made by Marvel,
Beyonder's Infinite Universe was an Ocean,
The Infinite Multiverse was a Drop of water in comparison.

Not to get geeky but,
in terms of quantifiable numbers,
that's somewhere over 20-25 Quintillions times larger.

1 Million Thousands = 1 Million
1 Billion = 1000 Millions
1 Trillion = 1000 Billions
1 Quadrillion = 1000 Trillions
1 Quintillion = 1000 Quadrillion

So ... 20-25 Quintillions is a pretty big number above Infinity I'd say.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yes, But Can one destroy the universe MJJ lives in if he doesn't want it destroyed? yes or no?

Not just anyone can,

but MM can.

MM > LT

LT > JJ

Originally posted by Mr Master
You were told,

MM blocked Beyonder's full power.

The Multiverse was and is Infinite:

In an analogy made by Marvel,
Beyonder's Infinite Universe was an Ocean,
The Infinite Multiverse was a Drop of water in comparison.

Not to get geeky but,
in terms of quantifiable numbers,
that's somewhere over 20-25 Quintillions times larger.

1 Million Thousands = 1 Million
1 Billion = 1000 Millions
1 Trillion = 1000 Billions
1 Quadrillion = 1000 Trillions
1 Quintillion = 1000 Quadrillion

So ... 20-25 Quintillions is a pretty big number above Infinity I'd say.



Not just anyone can,

but MM can.

MM > LT

LT > JJ
Um, So your saying that MM who only has multiversal feats and fought a depowered Beyonder is More powerful than The Current LT who has NO superiors at all? No. Just no. Unless you think that MM is equal to the heart of the universe?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Um, So your saying that MM who only has multiversal feats and fought a depowered Beyonder is More powerful than The Current LT who has NO superiors at all? No. Just no.

Actually Beyonder was not depowered by the time he battled MM.

He had stripped himself of all his power to become Human with a machine he creatred,
he then freaked out at his mortality, went back into the Machine,
and that's where the famous scan comes from that states
Beyonder's power in comparison with the Multiverse combined:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4735/b1gn1.th.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7305/28851977rw4.th.jpg

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/9690/11087626lr9.th.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8685/b5sd3.th.jpg


A few pages later in this issue, Beyonder and MM go toe to toe.

Both at full power.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Unless you think that MM is equal to the heart of the universe?

THOTI >>> MM

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually Beyonder was not depowered by the time he battled MM.

He had stripped himself of all his power to become Human with a machine he creatred,
he then freaked out at his mortality, went back into the Machine,
and that's where the famous scan comes from that states
Beyonder's power in comparison with the Multiverse combined:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4735/b1gn1.th.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7305/28851977rw4.th.jpg

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/9690/11087626lr9.th.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8685/b5sd3.th.jpg


A few pages later in this issue, Beyonder and MM go toe to toe.

Both at full power.



THOTI >>> MM

So then, The LT is not nearly as close to Omnipotent as you had us believe. If so many others can take up space inbetween he and the One above all. let's see, it ain't looking good for LT. TOAA>KIRBY AVatar>Thanos HOTU>Classic beyonder>Classic Molecule Man=THe Celestial>LT. That just doesn't seem fair to a guy who can hold mega verses in his hand and is judge over the omniverse that is marvel. I'd wager he's got more power than just over the omniverse. Cuz marvel could in a snap, make yet another omniverse, and guess who would be the judge? Yep. The LT.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So then, The LT is not nearly as close to Omnipotent as you had us believe. If so many others can take up space inbetween he and the One above all. let's see, it ain't looking good for LT. TOAA>KIRBY AVatar>Thanos HOTU>Classic beyonder>Classic Molecule Man=THe Celestial>LT. That just doesn't seem fair to a guy who can hold mega verses in his hand and is judge over the omniverse that is marvel. I'd wager he's got more power than just over the omniverse. Cuz marvel could in a snap, make yet another omniverse, and guess who would be the judge? Yep. The LT.

The thing is Classic MM & Beyonder don't exist at such levels anymore,
that's exactly the reason why their power was retconned, because it was too ridiculous.

Toaa > Kirby (actually Artists's) Avatar? (they're the same cat so that's impossible)
Toaa/god are Two cats in one (Artists & Writers of any given story)

Tooa/god is a given > LT (you know the reasons)
THOTI is Toaa/god's power withIn the Omniverse so obviously > LT

They shoudn't even count because of said reasons.


Which leaves us with Scathan,
and as explained thoroughly,
Scathan must've been acting as a direct representative of the Toaa/god's authority,
during that single issue (GOTG #49) based on, On Panel allusions.


So current LT is still >>> current Marvel Omniverse any and all characters.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is Classic MM & Beyonder don't exist at such levels anymore,
that's exactly the reason why their power was retconned, because it was too ridiculous.

Toaa > Kirby (actually Artists's) Avatar? (they're the same cat so that's impossible)
Toaa/god are Two cats in one (Artists & Writers of any given story)

Tooa/god is a given > LT (you know the reasons)
THOTI is Toaa/god's power withIn the Omniverse so obviously > LT

They shoudn't even count because of said reasons.


Which leaves us with Scathan,
and as explained thoroughly,
Scathan must've been acting as a direct representative of the Toaa/god's authority,
during that single issue (GOTG #49) based on, On Panel allusions.


So current LT is still >>> current Marvel Omniverse any and all characters.
And that is my point. Current LT beats the pants out of the LT that was depicted in Secret Wars. If you are still going by that showing of THE LT, the Spectre beats the shit out of him. I like to Think that if Current LT were to go back in time, HE could beat Classic beyonder and The Classic Molecule man without lifting a finger.

Jaspers returns

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8872/xmendiebythesword012007tz5.th.jpg

LT's last feat

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/627/img022yj8.th.jpg

Originally posted by guy222
Jaspers returns

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8872/xmendiebythesword012007tz5.th.jpg

LT's last feat

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/627/img022yj8.th.jpg

The LT is a scary being. This is proof that the 616 can't be the back bone of the marvel multiverse and omniverse if he would so easily replace one with the other. Or he would be so mighty as to actually change the physical make up of the entire Marvel u by just making the Ultimate verse the Spine of marvel.

In that scan it also shows he "discovered" the Ultimate Universe.

I have always said LT is second to his boss(TOAA)

Jaspers merging with Fury is powerful as well. He'll lose to LT. Prolly lose to Cap Britain using Excalibur and the Amulet

Marvel made a splash with Reece/Man from Beyond nearly 24 yrs ago. Remember Secret Wars. Those all powerful characters have been retconned

Originally posted by kevdude
In that scan it also shows he "discovered" the Ultimate Universe. Prolly she hulk's word. Time has no meaning to the LT. So he wouldn't discover anything.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The LT is a scary being. This is proof that the 616 can't be the back bone of the marvel multiverse and omniverse if he would so easily replace one with the other. Or he would be so mighty as to actually change the physical make up of the entire Marvel u by just making the Ultimate verse the Spine of marvel.
Um, what else could he possibly mean by "Replacing it"? It would have to have a special role in the Omniverse for there to be anything to "Replace"

Originally posted by Mr Master
Scathan must've been acting as a direct representative of the Toaa/god's authority,
during that single issue (GOTG #49) based on, On Panel allusions.
Please don't add "Must". You know as well as I do that that is total speculation.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, what else could he possibly mean by "Replacing it"? It would have to have a special role in the Omniverse for there to be anything to "Replace"

according to master, if you fold the 616 or destroy it, all of marvel falls to pieces. SO i'm wondering how the Lt could do such a thing.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
according to master, if you fold the 616 or destroy it, all of marvel falls to pieces. SO i'm wondering how the Lt could do such a thing.
Because he's the LT.

That scan, is a testament to LT's power to totaly change the structure of the omniverse, not that the 616 isn't central.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because he's the LT.

That scan, is a testament to LT's power to totaly change the structure of the omniverse, not that the 616 isn't central.
Then how in the hell does he lose to a being like classic Molecule man? The LT NEVER had such power back in those days. classic molecule man cant' just restructure the omniverse like that.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then how in the hell does he lose to a being like classic Molecule man? The LT NEVER had such power back in those days. classic molecule man cant' just restructure the omniverse like that.
Yeah he did. You think the LT was just sitting in his chair and one day a reality wave came and hit him, and now he's Omniversal? That's not how things work.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah he did. You think the LT was just sitting in his chair and one day a reality wave came and hit him, and now he's Omniversal? That's not how things work.

No. There was no omniverse back in the day. So he couldn't be omniversal when none existed. that doesn't make a bit of sense.

The Multiverse of yesterday is the Omniverse of today.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The Multiverse of yesterday is the Omniverse of today.

No. That makes absolutely no ****ing sense. That is a bullshit excuse if I've ever heard one. Actually the Marvel U is ever expanding. So hell no. If anything, the beyonder was everything out side of the multiverse so how in the hell could the multiverse of yeseterday be the omniverse when the beyonder was the omniverse except the one multiverse? clearly the space that the beyonder owned is now owned by toaa and the lt sits over it. Thus Niether MM's can be superior to the current lt. And The classic molecule man for sure as hell didn't have the power to resplace one reality with another and sit in judgement like that. Most he could do is destroy one or repair. never seen him being able to create shit, or alter the entire omniverse on his word alone.

I speak the truth. The beyond realm still exists, the only difference is that now it's home to the "Beyonders".

The Multiverse and the Omniverse are two-in-one.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I speak the truth. The beyond realm still exists, the only difference is that now it's home to the "Beyonders".

The Multiverse and the Omniverse are two-in-one.

No. The cosmic vortex showed other bunches of multiverse. They are not one and the same. the multiverse is PART of the omniverse. It's not what was is now the omniverse. That doesn't make a bit of sense. Especially since the marvel U is ever expanding. Which would mean growth.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No. The cosmic vortex showed other bunches of multiverse. They are not one and the same. the multiverse is PART of the omniverse. It's not what was is now the omniverse. That doesn't make a bit of sense. Especially since the marvel U is ever expanding. Which would mean growth.
The cosmic vortex shows alternate universes. I challenge you to give ANY evidence to the contrary.

The Omniverse is no more and no less then the multiverse... They are in essence similar.

Damn im trying to keep up but you two lost me

Originally posted by King Kandy
The cosmic vortex shows alternate universes. I challenge you to give ANY evidence to the contrary.

The Omniverse is no more and no less then the multiverse... They are in essence similar.

No. the multiverse is a collection of universes. An omniverse is a collection of multiverses and mega verses. Not similiar at all. not the same. The omniverse of today is NOT the multiverse of yesterday. That would be like saying the united states of today is the same united states of 1776. No.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No. the multiverse is a collection of universes. An omniverse is a collection of multiverses and mega verses. Not similiar at all. not the same. The omniverse of today is NOT the multiverse of yesterday. That would be like saying the united states of today is the same united states of 1776. No.
Difference being the geography is the same in the Multiverse/omniverse scenario.

The multiverse is symetrical on the Omniverse.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Difference being the geography is the same in the Multiverse/omniverse scenario.

The multiverse is symetrical on the Omniverse.
No. the multiverse does not cover the omniverse. Yesterday's multiverse is NOt today's omniverse. period. marvel made it clear that it's property had grown exponentially. And thus so has the Lt's power. Hell mega verses>multiverse, and he's held two in his hand as if they were nothing but toys to him.

The Omniverse and the Multiverse are two sides of the same coin.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The Omniverse and the Multiverse are two sides of the same coin.

No.

Two names for the same essence.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Two names for the same essence. No. becuz the Omniverse was discovered OUTSIDE of themultiverse. Cosmic vortex. Or is that another name for multiverse too? LMAO.

The cosmic vortex is infinite.

So is the Multiverse.

So is the Omniverse.

They are all intended to mean everything in marvel. You cannot draw a line between the same concept.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The cosmic vortex is infinite.

So is the Multiverse.

So is the Omniverse.

They are all intended to mean everything in marvel. You cannot draw a line between the same concept.

marvel does. they have different lvls of infinity. the universe is infinite. The multiverse is infinite universes. and the omniverse is infinite multiverses. and mega verses some how are bigger yet and still than multiverses. and marvel also has different lvls of omnipotent. So um yeah, the multiverse of yesterday is the same multiverse and from it, has developed an omniverse. like planting a seed and from it an entire garden grows.

More like cutting a cake in five pieces and then saying that it is five times as large.

But I have to leave this debate now... I'm running out of ways to say the same thing.

Originally posted by King Kandy
More like cutting a cake in five pieces and then saying that it is five times as large.

But I have to leave this debate now... I'm running out of ways to say the same thing.

I dont' make the rules. marvel makes this shit up. can't have it both ways. I've always said one universe can easily be equal to an entire multiverse. Since both are infinite. But that is not how it works.

There are several illogical things and yet funny at the same time because somebody actually belives them.

Take this for example :



I really hope I'm not the only one seeing something illogical here. I'm not even going to bother to comment on that, since there's no really need for it.

Of course , somebody will probably bring the "different levels of infinity" scan , which again , even after I've explained what it means , they still don't want to understand and still go by "There are different levels of Omnipotence/Infinity !!11 Marvel established that !!!11".

Next is the fact that Molecule Man doesn't even exist since he has been retconned , yet he is still been used in the vs forum . The writers were actually intelligent enough and point out the fact that he wasn't that strong, yet he is still used . In fact , it is even illogical to be that strong due to the definition of his power and his range of abilities . Not to mention that even pre-retcon he had been stated to be near Omnipotent .

Just putting Molecule Man against current Living Tribunal brings certain contradictions such as the fact that current Living Tribunal has been established to not be weaker than Molecule Man during Secret Wars while pre-retcon Molecule Man has been established to be the second strongest being , second only to Beyonder thus stronger than the Living Tribunal . Not to mention that during the pre-retcon Beyonder & Molecule Man era Living Tribunal was overseeing only one Multiverse .

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Next is the fact that Molecule Man doesn't even exist since he has been retconned , yet he is still been used in the vs forum . The writers were actually intelligent enough and point out the fact that he wasn't that strong, yet he is still used . In fact , it is even illogical to be that strong due to the definition of his power and his range of abilities . Not to mention that even pre-retcon he had been stated to be near Omnipotent .

Just putting Molecule Man against current Living Tribunal brings certain contradictions such as the fact that current Living Tribunal has been established to not be weaker than Molecule Man during Secret Wars while pre-retcon Molecule Man has been established to be the second strongest being , second only to Beyonder thus stronger than the Living Tribunal . Not to mention that during the pre-retcon Beyonder & Molecule Man era Living Tribunal was overseeing only one Multiverse .

I agree why are we still using rectonned characters in debates they are the only retconned Characters that we use.

The current States between LT and MM and Beyonder are contradictions I agree. As I see it I can at some point agree that Beyonder would be greater then LT but I fail to see how MM could be greater for that very reason that MM was the strongest in the Multiverse in 86 after Beyonder and yet today in 07 Beyonders department of the "omniverse" is watched over by the LT that would according to me implicate that LT has archived some sort of power upgrade and before anyone start scream that LT hasn't received a Upgrade then I would like to mention that it means that all the time he has been second ONLY to TOAA, some would argue that Beyonder in 86 was TOAA I can agree at some point but I wouldn't agree that MM is above the Current LT as for Beyonder Its another discussion for another time.

So Erik... Agreed

Originally posted by Utrigita


The current States between LT and MM and Beyonder are contradictions I agree. As I see it I can at some point agree that Beyonder would be greater then LT but I fail to see how MM could be greater for that very reason that MM was the strongest in the Multiverse in 86 after Beyonder and yet today in 07 Beyonders department of the "omniverse" is watched over by the LT that would according to me implicate that LT has archived some sort of power upgrade and before anyone start scream that LT hasn't received a Upgrade then I would like to mention that it means that all the time he has been second ONLY to TOAA, some would argue that Beyonder in 86 was TOAA I can agree at some point but I wouldn't agree that MM is above the Current LT as for Beyonder Its another discussion for another time.
You're not making any sense at all. Because the retcon happened, it means that the LT was second to TOAA the whole time. Think about it, who else was above the LT besides Classic Molecule Man and Classic Beyonder? Nobody, and they were both retconned so LT kept his 2nd to TOAA status the whole time.

TOAA shouldn't even be brought up because there was no mention of TOAA back then, but if you want to include TOAA then one can say that TOAA wrote Classic Beyonder and Classic MM to be greater than the rest just like TOAA wrote Scathan to be greater than the LT.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
There are several illogical things and yet funny at the same time because somebody actually belives them.

Take this for example :



I really hope I'm not the only one seeing something illogical here. I'm not even going to bother to comment on that, since there's no really need for it.

Of course , somebody will probably bring the "different levels of infinity" scan , which again , even after I've explained what it means , they still don't want to understand and still go by "There are different levels of Omnipotence/Infinity !!11 Marvel established that !!!11".

Next is the fact that Molecule Man doesn't even exist since he has been retconned , yet he is still been used in the vs forum . The writers were actually intelligent enough and point out the fact that he wasn't that strong, yet he is still used . In fact , it is even illogical to be that strong due to the definition of his power and his range of abilities . Not to mention that even pre-retcon he had been stated to be near Omnipotent .

Just putting Molecule Man against current Living Tribunal brings certain contradictions such as the fact that current Living Tribunal has been established to not be weaker than Molecule Man during Secret Wars while pre-retcon Molecule Man has been established to be the second strongest being , second only to Beyonder thus stronger than the Living Tribunal . Not to mention that during the pre-retcon Beyonder & Molecule Man era Living Tribunal was overseeing only one Multiverse .

Once again, you take what I've been saying and make it so plain.

Current in terms of power:
LT
Beyonder
MM

Classic in terms of power
Beyonder
MM
LT

Current LT curb stomps MM.

Why the hell does everyone keep making classic MM vs threads.
No one can compare to him other than the beyonder. And alot of characters especially them have been retconned.
Let go of the past he was the dog then but LT of today shits on him as a part time job.

And whoever said a definite number beats infinity..

Originally posted by SpiderGauntlet
Current in terms of power:
LT
Beyonder
MM

Classic in terms of power
Beyonder
MM
LT

Current LT curb stomps MM.

Why the hell does everyone keep making classic MM vs threads.
No one can compare to him other than the beyonder. And alot of characters especially them have been retconned.
Let go of the past he was the dog then but LT of today shits on him as a part time job.

And whoever said a definite number beats infinity.. I'm glad others are startin to see what I been saying for two years.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I agree why are we still using rectonned characters in debates they are the only retconned Characters that we use.
100% agreed. I even tried to have them removed from the hierarchy.

Originally posted by King Kandy
100% agreed. I even tried to have them removed from the hierarchy.

Because we wish they were back. Well certain people I'm happy they are gone; but not forgotten =/

Originally posted by King Kandy
100% agreed. I even tried to have them removed from the hierarchy.
They should be removed. At best the beyonder is still a lil less powerful than current lt. and the molecule man is only multiversal. Hell, i don't even remember him being able to wipe away all of the multiverse or put it back.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The LT is a scary being. This is proof that the 616 can't be the back bone of the marvel multiverse and omniverse if he would so easily replace one with the other.

That's just proof of how powerful the LT is.

Awesome feat indeed.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Or he would be so mighty as to actually change the physical make up of the entire Marvel u by just making the Ultimate verse the Spine of marvel.

Now you got it.


Like LT said:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9859/ltpi5.th.jpg
"I ... who could be All ... must be but a part ... I must be apart"

Originally posted by King Kandy
Please don't add "Must". You know as well as I do that that is total speculation.

Actually by me adding "must" insinuates speculation but with a high probability of being fact.

There are Two specific scans in GOTG #49 that strongly allude to it being fact,
yet, I agree, it is speculation in the end cause Marvel hasn't made it concrete.

But what else would explain the Fact that,
"LT's only superior is the TOAA" in his bio?

Just sayin.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No. There was no omniverse back in the day. So he couldn't be omniversal when none existed. that doesn't make a bit of sense.

You keep saying this and you keep falling into a ditch with it.

There was the Multiverse ... and there was the Beyond Realm.

The Beyond Realm encompassesed everything outside the Multiverse.

And what is outside the Multiverse today?

The rest of the Omniverse.

So there's always been an Omniverse, only Beyonder was most of it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You keep saying this and you keep falling into a ditch with it.

There was the Multiverse ... and there was the Beyond Realm.

The Beyond Realm encompassesed everything outside the Multiverse.

And what is outside the Multiverse today?

The rest of the Omniverse.

So there's always been an Omniverse, only Beyonder was most of it.

Actually I understand that. But the point is, the LT wasn't over that wrealm that the beyonder was. And the Beyonder didn't have exclusive rights on the multiverse back then. As of now, the LT has reign over everything the beyonder was, and the Multiverse of the 616.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The Omniverse and the Multiverse are two sides of the same coin.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Two names for the same essence.

K, what is this? Are you messing with Nvr?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No. the multiverse is a collection of universes. An omniverse is a collection of multiverses and mega verses. Not similiar at all. not the same.

I ... agree.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The omniverse of today is NOT the multiverse of yesterday.

It's a bit confusing, and it all derives from Beyonder's crappy retcon.

In a sense you're right, but not fully.

The Multiverse did expand from just being an infinite amount of UniverseS,
to being collections of MultiverseS called Megaverses.

But this is the thing,

the Beyonder was the embodiment of all the real estate outside the first Multiverse.
So what Marvel did, was replace the Beyond Realm (everything outside of the Multiverse)
with all the other Multiverses of today.

The Beyond Realm was not nullified though, it still exists,
and the Beyonder is still the embodiment there.
(It's a Universe, but weaker than one of Eternity's Universes)

The BeyonderS do not reside within the Beyond Realm and have nothing to do with it,
the Universe of the BeyonderS has no name and is located in a lightless Reality,
that can be reached through the Negative Zone.

Originally posted by Air Legend
You're not making any sense at all. Because the retcon happened, it means that the LT was second to TOAA the whole time. Think about it, who else was above the LT besides Classic Molecule Man and Classic Beyonder? Nobody, and they were both retconned so LT kept his 2nd to TOAA status the whole time.

TOAA shouldn't even be brought up because there was no mention of TOAA back then, but if you want to include TOAA then one can say that TOAA wrote Classic Beyonder and Classic MM to be greater than the rest just like TOAA wrote Scathan to be greater than the LT.

No because there has happend no retcon to LT then he would in theory been second to TOAA the entire time. Also I think I made it perfectly clear that current LT would be above Pre Retcon MM but most likely wouldn't be below Pre Recton Beyonder, because of LT now having authority over the Omniverse that prior was Beyonders, but is now LT's that means that Beyonders power would most likely had been added to LT thus making LT more powerful then MM.

Originally posted by King Kandy
100% agreed. I even tried to have them removed from the hierarchy.

I saw that and you succeed, We should stop using them.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually by me adding "must" insinuates speculation but with a high probability of being fact.

There are Two specific scans in GOTG #49 that strongly allude to it being fact,
yet, I agree, it is speculation in the end cause Marvel hasn't made it concrete.

But what else would explain the Fact that,
"LT's only superior is the TOAA" in his bio?

Just sayin.
I don't see how those scans "Allude" to anything other then:

A. Scathan is the Celestial in charge of Approving things.

B. No matter how powerful a comic character is, he's nothing compared to a real person.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
There are several illogical things and yet funny at the same time because somebody actually belives them.

I find Lies illogical.

I find it even funnier if one believes them.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Take this for example :

I said it and what? What about it?

That's a scientific fact.

There's roughly that many drops of water in the ocean,
I stated that numerical fact to put some perspective on how much larger,
Beyonder's Universe was than the Infinite Multiverse of 85.

This study was made by New Hampshire's prestigious Keene State University

and Frostburb State University.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I really hope I'm not the only one seeing something illogical here.

I seen lies/deceptions, but I'm not really in the mood to pull those cards.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm not even going to bother to comment on that, since there's no really need for it.

Whatever.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Of course , somebody will probably bring the "different levels of infinity" scan ,

"Somebody" is Mr Master, there, I said it for you.

And those scans were published by MARVEL,
in TWO separate issues.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
which again , even after I've explained what it means ,

The voice of perfect reason speaks again.

Get out of here with this sanctimoniuous babble.

pointandlaugh "even after I've explained what it means"

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
they still don't want to understand and still go by "There are different levels of Omnipotence/Infinity !!11 Marvel established that !!!11".

Correct, I will NEVER go by what you want/wish it to mean.

I will go by what MARVEL the company that creates this fantasy established as facts,
concerning MARVEL Comics!!!

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Next is the fact that Molecule Man doesn't even exist since he has been retconned , yet he is still been used in the vs forum .

True, but I think that's the purpose of stating it's PRE-RETCON MM.
(you know as in, make believe)

Cause in case you didn't notice, none of these characters "exist"

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
The writers were actually intelligent enough and point out the fact that he wasn't that strong, yet he is still used .

He was depowered, and STILL (concerning POST-Retcon MM) the LT states:

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5854/shistory6nx7.th.jpg

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4217/mmlm0.th.jpg
"One of the MOST Powerful beings in ALL Creation"


Canon baby!
..................................................................

These so-called "intelligent writers" must've missed that one.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In fact , it is even illogical to be that strong due to the definition of his power and his range of abilities . Not to mention that even pre-retcon he had been stated to be near Omnipotent .

In fact, MM the "near omnipotent"

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7060/mmjt5.th.jpg

"Owen Reece possessed the greatest potential of all,
and by chance ACHIEVED it.
And Now he IS and KNOWS he is the mightier than All other beings of the Multiverse"


And the Living Tribunal is there!
..................................................................

Uatu on his knees in front of MM the "near omnipotent"

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3060/mm1if7.th.jpg
"Stop the Beyonder ... I beg of you"

..................................................................

The Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3831/mm3zn3.th.jpg
"Behold the Molecule Man ... Stand aside let him pass"

..................................................................

That's right, get out the way children, the powerhouse is here!
..................................................................

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Just putting Molecule Man against current Living Tribunal brings certain contradictions such as the fact that current Living Tribunal has been established to not be weaker than Molecule Man during Secret Wars

Really? Where was this stated?

Wonder how you're gonna crop a scan to make this one work.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
while pre-retcon Molecule Man has been established to be the second strongest being , second only to Beyonder thus stronger than the Living Tribunal .

This is true.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Not to mention that during the pre-retcon Beyonder & Molecule Man era Living Tribunal was overseeing only one Multiverse .

That one Multiverse was all of canon Marvel.

If you can find a scan that states the LT's power increased
as the Multiverse expanded, you may have something.

Good luck.

..................................................................


On another note,

I've told you before, when you try to insult me,
you're gonna have fire rain on you.

So in order to avoid this tribulation, be respectful
and make a point without being snide and reviling in your not so well cloaked manner.


Peace and love to all true debaters that discuss without derogatory gibberish.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't see how those scans "Allude" to anything other then:

A. Scathan is the Celestial in charge of Approving things.

B. No matter how powerful a comic character is, he's nothing compared to a real person.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually by me adding "must" insinuates speculation but with a high probability of being fact.

There are Two specific scans in GOTG #49 that strongly allude to it being fact,
yet, I agree, it is speculation in the end cause Marvel hasn't made it concrete.

But what else would explain the Fact that,
"LT's only superior is the TOAA" in his bio?

Just sayin.

Take it as you will.

(excerpt from the official Marvel handbook 2007)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6930/lt2gt4.th.jpg
"The Living Tribunal's ONLY superior is TOAA"
..................................................................................


A. As a Celestial, Scathan should be a joke to the LT.

B. "A real person"? (as in Scathan?)

I don't see, how you can take a scan saying Scathan is the "approver" and another saying power is meaningless beyond the level of the Abstracts, and turn it into "Scathan is an agent of TOAA".

It's pure madness, to take those scans as meaning something other then what they say: That Scathan is the Approver of the Celestials, and that Real people are infinitly above Comic Characters.

Lies ?

So you're just pulling this out of nowhere , practically starting your reply with an insult ?











You seem to have a difficulty in understanding what other people are trying to say and go by your own view , if it's either correct or incorrect .

You also seem to have an inability to debate civilized and resort to insulting and attempts to discredit me .

And then , you tell me that I'm the one who can't have a civilized coversation and such . That's called hypocrisy .

Due to your inability or just simply not wanting to view anybody else's point and take your opinion as granted , I'm going to explain this to you in the most simple way .

An infinity can be greater than one infinity only if the former one is contained within the first infinity . An example I will use is the one I've used many times to you , with the fundamental forces of the Universe. If characters A and B have infinite control over Electromagnetism and Gravity respectivly , yet character C has infinite control over all the four fundamental forces of the Universe then Character C > Characters A and B because Character C contains both of them + more .
By Omnipotence , there could be only one thing . All encompassing . Infinite control over all areas , not just a certain area . That's why an Omnipotent being can't be surpassed because there is nothing that surpasses Omnipotence . It is by definition unsurpassable .

While in the context of what we are talking , Main Multiverse and Beyonder's Universe , neither one infinity contained in another nor the second one doesn't apply . Here we are talking about how large the Beyonder Universe in comparison to the Marvel Multiverse. If the Multiverse is infinite , then how can something be larger than it , in this case , the Beyonder Universe ? Do you find that logical ? I'm not really surprised if you do .



Do you find it logical to use a character that has been established to never has been that powerfull in a vs forum ?



And this ... shows what ?

Did this scans have any purpose ?



Again , what exactly does this have to do with what I just posted ?

Comprehend what I post , and then reply . Posting scans over and over again without any purpose doesn't help your case at all and doesn't make you any credible.



I can't belive you're actually asking me this question . It again shows your inability to read other's posts . Has it not been retconned that Molecule Man was never stronger than LT during Secret Wars ? Yes . Does that mean that Lt was always stronger than Molecule Man ? Yes . Did I just say that in my post ? Yes .



I've insulted you ? No , I was just pointing out how illogical claims such as an infinite being bigger than another is . That's not an insult , an insult is what you've just done most of your post .

Seriously , this is like I'm talking to a brick wall .

You don't see the contradiction in using a pre-retcon character against a post-retcon one .

You have a comprehending problem .

Everybody got what is the contradiction that appears when comparing Pre-Retcon molecule man to the current Lt yet you can't .

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Lies ?

So you're just pulling this out of nowhere , practically starting your reply with an insult ?

You vainly attempted to insult me from the get,
so I obliged.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You seem to have a difficulty in understanding what other people are trying to say and go by your own view , if it's either correct or incorrect .

Your view is meaningless (concerning Marvel)
when it contradicts something Marvel has established as Fact.

If Marvel says there are different levels of Infinity ... then let it be.

Don't come out telling me, "I already explained it"
(like you know better)
You're simply trying to challenge a simple statement.

That being ... Marvel has different levels of Infinity (On Panel) in TWO separate issues.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You also seem to have an inability to debate civilized and resort to insulting and attempts to discredit me .

You been popping garbage for a while now,

no more mister nice guy.

Respect = respect, it's not a one way street.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
And then , you tell me that I'm the one who can't have a civilized coversation and such . That's called hypocrisy .

You have a way of seeing things with a one track mind.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Due to your inability or just simply not wanting to view anybody else's point and take your opinion as granted , I'm going to explain this to you in the most simple way .

here we go again.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
An infinity can be greater than one infinity only if the former one is contained within the first infinity . An example I will use is the one I've used many times to you , with the fundamental forces of the Universe. If characters A and B have infinite control over Electromagnetism and Gravity respectivly , yet character C has infinite control over all the four fundamental forces of the Universe then Character C > Characters A and B because Character C contains both of them + more .
By Omnipotence , there could be only one thing . All encompassing . Infinite control over all areas , not just a certain area . That's why an Omnipotent being can't be surpassed because there is nothing that surpasses Omnipotence . It is by definition unsurpassable .

While in the context of what we are talking , Main Multiverse and Beyonder's Universe , neither one infinity contained in another nor the second one doesn't apply . Here we are talking about how large the Beyonder Universe in comparison to the Marvel Multiverse. If the Multiverse is infinite , then how can something be larger than it , in this case , the Beyonder Universe ? Do you find that logical ? I'm not really surprised if you do .

How this debunks the On Panel facts is sensible only in your mind.

Marvel says there are different levels of Infinity/Omnipotence,

so that's what it is.

Your logic doesn't mean anything, right or wrong.

This is comic books, specifically concerning Marvel in this moment.

All that matters is what Marvel says, concerning THEIR Comics.

So peace.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Do you find it logical to use a character that has been established to never has been that powerfull in a vs forum ?

Yea, if he's being introduced as his PAST self.

It's all make believe and hypothetical, so yea,
I don't have a problem with someone bring in a Pre-retcon cat,
so long as it's stated in the heading of the thread.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
And this ... shows what ?

Did this scans have any purpose ?

Again , what exactly does this have to do with what I just posted ?

It proves you were wrong about MM's status in his pre-era.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Comprehend what I post , and then reply . Posting scans over and over again without any purpose doesn't help your case at all and doesn't make you any credible.

I don't care what you post.

I'm only responding to you because of your opening insult in the prior page.

You been doing it across several threads, enough is enough.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I can't belive you're actually asking me this question . It again shows your inability to read other's posts . Has it not been retconned that Molecule Man was never stronger than LT during Secret Wars ? Yes . Does that mean that Lt was always stronger than Molecule Man ? Yes . Did I just say that in my post ? Yes .

Nah,

the retcon was depowering MM.

It has NEVER been stated that MM or Beyonder were weaker in the PRE era.

Now AFTER the Pre era? Yes, it has been established they BECAME weaker.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I've insulted you ? No , I was just pointing out how illogical claims such as an infinite being bigger than another is . That's not an insult , an insult is what you've just done most of your post .

Yea you did insult me.

If you don't realized that, you have a problem.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Seriously , this is like I'm talking to a brick wall .

How do you think I feel talking to a proven liar.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You don't see the contradiction in using a pre-retcon character against a post-retcon one .

MAKE BELIEVE dude!

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You have a comprehending problem .

It - is - a - hypothetical - question!

Comprehend that.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Everybody got what is the contradiction that appears when comparing Pre-Retcon molecule man to the current Lt yet you can't .

So long as it's stated in the title of the thread,
I could care less about having some fun.


Now, again,

make your point respectfully, and perhaps we'll find a middle where we can be peers.

But don't quote part of my post, and state it's funny like I'm a joke.

And don't state, "somebody is going to bring up different levels of Infinity"
and make a snide remark after it.

Or "I already explained it and he doesn't comprehend"
(as though you're the lord of interpretation)

That's a pompous & sanctimonious remark.

I think you made up this Scathan/TOAA thing because you didn't want to admit, that Scathan was just plain stronger then LT.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think you made up this Scathan/TOAA thing because you didn't want to admit, that Scathan was just plain stronger then LT.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually by me adding "must" insinuates speculation but with a high probability of being fact.

There are Two specific scans in GOTG #49 that strongly allude to it being fact,
yet, I agree, it is speculation in the end cause Marvel hasn't made it concrete.

But what else would explain the Fact that,
"LT's only superior is the TOAA" in his bio?

Just sayin.

I'm not going to try and read your mind (as you're trying with mine)
as to why you made up,
"the Multiverse and the Omniverse are the same essence"
or "the Multiverse and the Omniverse are two sides of the same coin"

Were you trying to prove Nvr wrong when you knew he was right?
Were you just wrong, and didn't enjoy that?
Were you mis-informed?

I don't know, but that isn't the purpose of the thread, so I don't care.
(And even if it was, I wouldn't insert my personal feelings)
I rather just post the facts, and if you accept fine, if you reject, fine.

Peace and love yall, gotta work out now.

I said all of that, just to see how long it would take for Nvr to give up on arguing with me.

You say that you post only fact, but apparently that doesn't extend to this situation... You're free to push as much BS as you want as long as it makes Scathan seem weaker.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I said all of that, just to see how long it would take for Nvr to give up on arguing with me.

I'll believe you, instead of prying your mind for the truth.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You say that you post only fact, but apparently that doesn't extend to this situation...
You're free to push as much BS as you want as long as it makes Scathan seem weaker.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually by me adding "must" insinuates speculation but with a high probability of being fact.

There are Two specific scans in GOTG #49 that strongly allude to it being fact,
yet, I agree, it is speculation in the end cause Marvel hasn't made it concrete.

But what else would explain the Fact that,
"LT's only superior is the TOAA" in his bio?

Just sayin.

Third time around is usually a charm.

"BS?" (Hope the big bold text will scratch that)
..........................................................................

Every issue that the LT has appeared in (Post MM/Beyonder) has stated
he's the most powerful Entity in Marvel second only to TOAA. (ON Panel)

Every relevant Bio that has ever mentioned the LT has stated,
he's the most powerful Entity in Marvel second only to TOAA.

(HOTI) is Toaa/god's power withIN the Omniverse so that doesn't count.

ONE (as in a Single) issue appears where a Celestial is depicted
as being more powerful than Protege (who copied the LT's power)
and about 20 Years of established facts are overwritten?

I have to disagree.

Celestials were created by Eternity with a thought.
Eternity is less than nothing to the LT.

"BS?"

If Celestials are insects to the LT,
(and the LT's 2006 Bio clearly states the "LT's ONLY superior is TOAA" ...)
What other explanation is there for the PIS of that Single GOTG issue?

This is where my speculation comes from homie, as I stated in big bold text.
(Like THREE times in this thread alone)
Besides the allusion in the issue itself (YES IMO)

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll believe you, instead of prying your mind for the truth.
You don't need to be a smartass about it.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Every issue that the LT has appeared in (Post MM/Beyonder) has stated
he's the most powerful Entity in Marvel second only to TOAA. (ON Panel)
EVERY issue? I bet I can find one where he's not.

I fact, I'd like you to find me one where he IS.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Every relevant Bio that has ever mentioned the LT has stated,
he's the most powerful Entity in Marvel second only to TOAA.
Good thing On Panel>Bio. Especially when the bio's confirm that the Scathan Incident happened.


Originally posted by Mr Master
(HOTI) is Toaa/god's power withIN the Omniverse so that doesn't count.
What about Last Planet Standing? Does it not count as well?


Originally posted by Mr Master
ONE (as in a Single) issue appears where a Celestial is depicted
as being more powerful than Protege (who copied the LT's power)
and about 20 Years of established facts are overwritten?
I guess if by "20 Years of established facts" you mean a bio and some unscanned "On Panel Evidence".


Originally posted by Mr Master
Celestials were created by Eternity with a thought.
Eternity is less than nothing to the LT.
Surely you have to concede that Scathan>Eternity though, right? Because it's pure BS if you don't.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If Celestials are insects to the LT,
(and the LT's 2006 Bio clearly states the "LT's ONLY superior is TOAA" ...)
You can't use "LT>Celestials" to prove "LT>Scathan". Clearly Scathan is the exception to the rule, as a celestial that is NOT under LT.


Originally posted by Mr Master
What other explanation is there for the PIS of that Single GOTG issue?
The explanation that's simplest is that Scathan is simply more powerful then LT.


Originally posted by Mr Master
This is where my speculation comes from homie, as I stated in big bold text.
(Like THREE times in this thread alone)
Besides the allusion in the issue itself (YES IMO)
The Problem is that when you post things like "It is strongly supported" it gives the impression that it's obvious fact... When in truth there's really nothing there to support it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So ... 20-25 Quintillions is a pretty big number above Infinity I'd say. You must realize how ridiculous that sounds. srsly

A think that he means 20-25 Quintillion times more then Infinity is greater then Infinity.

Which is pretty ridiculous as well, but not quite as much.

I don't know about anyone else, but Scathan's feat is just plain overrated, and doesn't put him over LT... at all.

IMO.

Originally posted by King Kandy
A think that he means 20-25 Quintillion times more then Infinity is greater then Infinity.

Which is pretty ridiculous as well, but not quite as much. Any way you word it,

The concept of one infinity>another infinity, is laughable at best.

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
I don't know about anyone else, but Scathan's feat is just plain overrated, and doesn't put him over LT... at all.

IMO.
How? He beat Protege, who is Equal to LT.

That can't mean anything other then Scathan>LT.

Originally posted by Merlyn
Any way you word it,

The concept of one infinity>another infinity, is still is laughable at best.
Yeah. But the way HE worded it, it seemed like he was saying that a finite number> An infinite number.

Originally posted by King Kandy
How? He beat Protege, who is Equal to LT.

That can't mean anything other then Scathan>LT. He blocked his eyesight...

If anyone in that room was using their heads, they could have done the same.

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
He blocked his eyesight...

If anyone in that room was using their heads, they could have done the same.
So I guess LT could be beaten the same way, huh?

Or did you forget that LT/Protege is OMNESCIENT?

Originally posted by King Kandy
it seemed like he was saying that a finite number> An infinite number. Which is:


*Not dogging Mr M*

Originally posted by King Kandy
So I guess LT could be beaten the same way, huh?

Or did you forget that LT/Protege is OMNESCIENT? Umm... ya. I just said that.
The thing Scathan used, seemed like something any Celestial would have, and Eternity alluded to this as well.

That's nice.
LT doesn't show it all the time, and Protege was still covered up.

So me saying that your claim that Beyonder's infinite Universe is larger than Marvel's infinite Multiverse is illogical is an insult ? Funny .



No that is what you think Marvel has established as fact . It's your rather illogical view on the scans (Different levels of Omnipotence) that you go by , not by what Marvel has established .

I already explained to you several times what the scans mean , yet you still go by your illogical theories .

The scans actually back me up , since my examples are pretty much what the scans say , but in another form so that you can understand . You have a comprehension problem . There are several times I've told you this . You take your views on certain things as being the correct ones and don't accept anybody else's opinions as being correct , even when they are more logical and intelligent than yours are .

And this is getting rather stupid . You go on and on with illogical claims such as different levels of Omnipotence when I already explain to you numerous times what the scans mean , with examples that even a 10 years old would understand .



Popping garbage?

You're the one saying that there are different levels of Omnipotence yet I'm popping garbage ?



It's like everything you say is hypocritical .



That's your counter argument to me explaining to you what the scans say ?

By lying and saying that Marvel has established different levels of Omnipotence ?

By ignoring what I say and going on with your illogical blabbering ?

This one really convinved me .

You're not worth debating with .

You have your opinion , illogical as it is , and still go by it no matter what .

It's useless talking to you .



It seems you can't understand the concept of a retcon .

There is no past almighty self that Molecule Man has had .

He was never that strong .

Pre-Retcon = / = Pre-depowerment .

Hard to get ?



Actually what it proves is that you didn't comprehend my post and started showing scans without having a clue about what I was talking about .



So me saying that what you claim is illogical , as it obviously is , is an insult ?



They were never that strong . They were never superior to LT . That's the point of a retcon . It's not the same as depowering a character, it's pointing out that he wasn't that strong to begin with .

Is that so hard to understand ?



As I said , pointing out that something is illogical isn't an insult .



Again , insulting me . Frankly , I'm really getting tired of it .



This discussion is really getting nowhere



This is your whole counter-argument ? So just because a character was never that strong doesn't mean we can't use the power he didn't have ?

Then why shouldn't we start doing this to more characters ? Pre-getting trashed by Superman Darkseid ? Pre-whatever retcon happened to a certain character vs other character ?

What you need to understand is that Retcon = / = Depowerment , and then you will understand more .



As I said , I didn't insult , I ony pointed that something is illogical in what you said .

As long as you actually try to think that maybe you aren't always right and try to take other's opinions and explinations into account , aswell as not come out and insult without a reason , then we won't have a problem.

Seriously , every time I've pointed out what those scans meant you just plain and simply ignored it . Why do you go by something that's illogical ?

So, Erik loses again.

Anyway, MM takes it.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr


No that is what you think Marvel has established as fact .

It's your rather illogical view on the scans (Different levels of Omnipotence)
that you go by ,

not by what Marvel has established .

I already explained to you several times what the scans mean ,

yet you still go by your illogical theories .

The scans actually back me up,

blahblah

Please yall, read this guy's assault carefully,
cause I'm about to enjoy the bottom I'ma put on this cat.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You have a comprehension problem .

We'll see.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

You go on and on with illogical claims such as different levels of Omnipotence

when I already explain to you numerous times what the scans mean

with examples that even a 10 years old would understand .


Popping garbage?

You're the one saying that there are different levels of Omnipotence yet I'm popping garbage?

ermmdur

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr


By lying and saying that Marvel has established different levels of Omnipotence?

I'm lying about Marvel establishing different levels of Infinity/Omnipotence.

rofl2

............................................................................

The moment of TRUTH!

Who's the intransigent liar?

We'll let us see.

............................................................................


The rant will be ignored, since it's meaningless.

But I will address the Infinity issue.
..............................................................


The question is,

DOES MARVEL HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INFINITY?
(who cares if it's illogical blah, blah, blah ahh shut up)

DOES MARVEL HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INFINITY?
..............................................................


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................

It doesn't really say that, It was I that drew that issue and did the lettering.

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

Kosmos says,

"Infinity by it's very nature is unsurpassable."


Kubik replies,

"Consider then the Set called Whole Numbers - 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on, is it not Infinite?"


Kosmos answers,

"Obviously."


Kubik retorts,

"Then consider the Set called Even Numbers - 2, 4, 6, 8 and so on, how long is it?


Kosmos responds,

"Why Infinite of course."


Kubik with wisdom,

"Half of Infinity is still Infinity, and the same would be true of the Set of Odd Numbers?


Kosmos answers,

"Of course."

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg

Kubik explains,

"Both Sets are Infinite, and yet the Set of Whole Numbers contains BOTH Subsets,

and is therefore TWICE as Large as either Subset Alone"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg

Kubik finishes,

"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of INFINITY,

there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"

..............................................................



STOMPED!!!

Dr Strange also noted there were levels of infinity.

Originally posted by Evolve
Dr Strange also noted there were levels of infinity.



http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"

...........................................................................

Guys like you who actually think they know everything and that their opinion is all that matters are actually entertaning in a way



We already did



And now it's time to utterly destroy your argument , using your own scans

This is going to be fun





"can we not warp the laws of time and space at our whim ?"

"Yes our might is infinite . But there are different levels of infinity", aka different areas to which you can have infinite control over .

And then follows my example only in this case he uses numbers while I use the fundamental forces of the Universe , both examples being similar to one another .

What does this example want to say to us ?

Well of course , that there is a infinite set of numbers (Or a control over a specific area) , and another set of numbers who is also infinite , but that both of this numbers are contained within another infinity which encompasses all areas , and infinite control over all areas (over everything) is also known Omnipotence .

Even Strange says the same thing :

"One infinity is included within a larger infinity . "


How ironic that you say "stomped" yet you end up on the reciving end .

That's not said or alluded to anywhere in the comic.

So, why should we use it?

You're on ignore . Don't reply .

So, you're wrong.

Gotcha.

MJJ i think wins, no clever reason, just i like him more, doesn his mere thought warp realities, does he even have to think? if he has to think he may be at a fault

but hes leaps and bounds more cool than the other characters, especially LT

living tribunal is above jaspers

but LT is a queer thing, surely if jaspers simply wills it, he can imagine LT as nothing? i thought MJJ imagines and it becomes reality or something like that

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
So, you're wrong.

Gotcha.

IT would seem, anyone who doesn't think like you, or has superior logic, is in your eyes, wrong.

Originally posted by Burning thought
but LT is a queer thing, surely if jaspers simply wills it, he can imagine LT as nothing? i thought MJJ imagines and it becomes reality or something like that

There's nothing Jaspers can do to the Living Tribunal. Nothin

Originally posted by guy222
There's nothing Jaspers can do to the Living Tribunal. Nothin

why is this? if he can shape reality itself surely he could shape how tribunal will be

LT's powers exceed Jaspers

ofc in the current reality, but if Jaspers so decides it, he could reshape everything

LOL Guy. it's hard isn't it

LT governs all realities in the MU. MJJ has dominion over reality itself but LT is a proxy for The One Above All....i.e. LT acts on behalf of TOAA. LT is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent....jaspers is omnipotent only in his sphere of power, i.e. reality. That's how fury defeated him in their battle, by moving jaspers to a situation where they existed outside reality (as stupid as that is). LT is higher than any single reality, or realities. Tribinual holds realities in his hand...all jaspers can do is shape those realities as he sees fit....LT is higher than jaspers because jaspers is constricted by his powerset....he manipulates reality, but LT actually is above the concept of reality.

He's not using logic. He's twisting what the scan says. It makes no mention of a certain infinity over a certain force. It just says different levels of infinity.

It's weird that logic to you means that "what I say is what the comic is saying (even though the comic never says it)

*shrug* lol, what if TOAA didnt favour LT, then its nothing tho isnt it?

also LT is not omnipotent, otherwise TOAA wouldnt be....

not my fault if marvel bring a load of rubbish into some of their things, i mean how the hell can you remove a guy to a place outside of reality, stupid as hell...

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
according to master, if you fold the 616 or destroy it, all of marvel falls to pieces. SO i'm wondering how the Lt could do such a thing. 616 is just the number Marvel uses to reference their 'prime' Universe at this point in time -- Don't get too caught up in the number system, because a number is not what makes said Universe(s) important...


Anyhow,

It would seem that LT was going to put the Ultimate Universe in the 616 Universe's place... This would have made the Ultimate Universe, Marvel's new 'prime' Universe.


Hence,

Nothing would have been destroyed, because the 'prime' Universe would've still been intact.


Make sense?

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
He's not using logic. He's twisting what the scan says. It makes no mention of a certain infinity over a certain force.

It just says different levels of infinity.

Precisely.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
It's weird that logic to you means that "what I say is what the comic is saying (even though the comic never says it)

It's not that wierd to me, he's tried before to twist what the scan says.

Kinda eerily reminds me of someone. Hmm ... I wonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The question is,

DOES MARVEL HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INFINITY?
(who cares if it's illogical blah, blah, blah ahh shut up)

DOES MARVEL HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INFINITY?
..............................................................


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................

It doesn't really say that, It was I that drew that issue and did the lettering.




CONTINUES ...

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg

Kubik finishes,

"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of INFINITY,

there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"

..............................................................

whistling

Originally posted by Galan007
616 is just the number Marvel uses to reference their 'prime' Universe at this point in time -- Don't get too caught up in the number system, because a number is not what makes said Universe(s) important...


Anyhow,

It would seem that LT was going to put the Ultimate Universe in the 616 Universe's place... This would have made the Ultimate Universe, Marvel's new 'prime' Universe.


Hence,

Nothing would have been destroyed, because the 'prime' Universe would've still been intact.


Make sense?

Exacto.

Originally posted by Burning thought
*shrug* lol, what if TOAA didnt favour LT, then its nothing tho isnt it?

also LT is not omnipotent, otherwise TOAA wouldnt be....

not my fault if marvel bring a load of rubbish into some of their things, i mean how the hell can you remove a guy to a place outside of reality, stupid as hell...

LT is omnipotent. He is omnipotent relative to all characters that are regularly depicted and interact with each other in Marvel Comics. If you go beyond that, and go into characters, including LT himself, referencing supreme higher powers, depictions of writers/artists creating/removing characters from stroylines/sketchpads, and things of that nature, then LT is not omnipotent, because the TOAA is, as you mention.

The thing everyone gets hung up here on these forums is the definition of omnipotent. What people forget is that omnipotent is a very relative term.
Example, to you and me, if someone (for argument's sake) like MJJ were alive, he would be omnipotent. However clearly, God, or TOAA, is omnipotent. Does that make Jaspers any less all-powerful in our eyes? NO.

So to clarify, LT is omnipotent relative to the rest of the MU. TOAA is above the MU and is omnipotent in comparison with everything else. However all discussions here on the forum relate to characters depicted in the comics and who regularly intereact with each other, and in this context LT is supreme.

LT for the win

Originally posted by Tenebrous
LOL Guy. it's hard isn't it

LT governs all realities in the MU. MJJ has dominion over reality itself but LT is a proxy for The One Above All....i.e. LT acts on behalf of TOAA. LT is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent....jaspers is omnipotent only in his sphere of power, i.e. reality. That's how fury defeated him in their battle, by moving jaspers to a situation where they existed outside reality (as stupid as that is). LT is higher than any single reality, or realities. Tribinual holds realities in his hand...all jaspers can do is shape those realities as he sees fit....LT is higher than jaspers because jaspers is constricted by his powerset....he manipulates reality, but LT actually is above the concept of reality.

Originally posted by Tenebrous
LT is omnipotent. He is omnipotent relative to all characters that are regularly depicted and interact with each other in Marvel Comics. If you go beyond that, and go into characters, including LT himself, referencing supreme higher powers, depictions of writers/artists creating/removing characters from stroylines/sketchpads, and things of that nature, then LT is not omnipotent, because the TOAA is, as you mention.

The thing everyone gets hung up here on these forums is the definition of omnipotent. What people forget is that omnipotent is a very relative term.
Example, to you and me, if someone (for argument's sake) like MJJ were alive, he would be omnipotent. However clearly, God, or TOAA, is omnipotent. Does that make Jaspers any less all-powerful in our eyes? NO.

So to clarify, LT is omnipotent relative to the rest of the MU. TOAA is above the MU and is omnipotent in comparison with everything else. However all discussions here on the forum relate to characters depicted in the comics and who regularly intereact with each other, and in this context LT is supreme.

i suppose thats fair enough, but i still hate the thing really, Jaspers is at least a cool powerful being

jaspers is

Originally posted by King Kandy
You don't need to be a smartass about it.



EVERY issue? I bet I can find one where he's not.

I fact, I'd like you to find me one where he IS.



Good thing On Panel>Bio. Especially when the bio's confirm that the Scathan Incident happened.



What about Last Planet Standing? Does it not count as well?



I guess if by "20 Years of established facts" you mean a bio and some unscanned "On Panel Evidence".



Surely you have to concede that Scathan>Eternity though, right? Because it's pure BS if you don't.


You can't use "LT>Celestials" to prove "LT>Scathan". Clearly Scathan is the exception to the rule, as a celestial that is NOT under LT.



The explanation that's simplest is that Scathan is simply more powerful then LT.



The Problem is that when you post things like "It is strongly supported" it gives the impression that it's obvious fact... When in truth there's really nothing there to support it.

So I guess you've conceded since you repeat yourself eventough it has already been shown what the scans say .



You can keep going on with your illogical interpretations because any logical and intelligent person would realize that I'm right .

See you

Originally posted by Tenebrous
LT is omnipotent. He is omnipotent relative to all characters that are regularly depicted and interact with each other in Marvel Comics. If you go beyond that, and go into characters, including LT himself, referencing supreme higher powers, depictions of writers/artists creating/removing characters from stroylines/sketchpads, and things of that nature, then LT is not omnipotent, because the TOAA is, as you mention.

The thing everyone gets hung up here on these forums is the definition of omnipotent. What people forget is that omnipotent is a very relative term.
Example, to you and me, if someone (for argument's sake) like MJJ were alive, he would be omnipotent. However clearly, God, or TOAA, is omnipotent. Does that make Jaspers any less all-powerful in our eyes? NO.

So to clarify, LT is omnipotent relative to the rest of the MU. TOAA is above the MU and is omnipotent in comparison with everything else. However all discussions here on the forum relate to characters depicted in the comics and who regularly intereact with each other, and in this context LT is supreme.

Erik loses again.

So is this in classic or current terms of power?