Son Goku Vs God Enel

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Fire Ninja
http://www.animezen.net/images/anime/d/r/dragonball_z/gokubiopic.jpg

VS

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8025/eneru5nw.jpg




This is Goku when he first arrived on Namek. He has one senzu bean and Enel has access to the Maxim arc.

Endless Mike
A thread where Goku actually wins

Fire Ninja
But, how is he going to hurt enel?

Endless Mike
Blast him to disperse him enough so that he can't reform

Or blast him into the water

Accel
Unless Goku is wearing rubber gloves, I don't see him doing any physical damage to Enel. This could be a stalemate.

The only way I could see Goku taking it is if he uses that spirit bomb, since that seems to be able to take out almost any thing.

Fire Ninja
Goku wins, but he remembers this fight: 7/10

Violent2Dope
Goku wins with difficulty, his punches will be useless.

chickenlover98
blasts = win. if he blows the continent whats this enel guy gonna do

superkronick92
Do you even know who enel is?

chickenlover98
lol nope, but i assume hje can be beaten if everyone agrees. from what i hear the guy isnt able to handle blasts

Violent2Dope
He can turn his entire body into electricity, can manipulate and fire it, and can at least destroy an island.

superkronick92
Goku has to go kaoken to barely pull out the win

chickenlover98
doubt it. but wseeing as that technique goes unused after frieza saga dont see much point. and goku can blow up the planet without kaoken. proof: piccolo destroys moon in saiyan saga, goku stronger by frieza saga

superkronick92
Freeza Saga Goku got owned by Lava and flying rocks

chickenlover98
lava is heat. rocks not really. and i thought u said anime wasnt canon(although ill use it). thats not the point. can this guy fly? if not then bye bye god enel

superkronick92
I'm pretty sure it was in the manga

Violent2Dope
Goku could not bust a planet when he first arrived at Namek. Yes Enel can fly.

chickenlover98
he probably could v2d. realistically he was stronger than frieza and frieza first stage busted a planet. i know mike has fancy formula's why he couldnt, but its a tv show for christ sakes.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by chickenlover98
he probably could v2d. realistically he was stronger than frieza and frieza first stage busted a planet. i know mike has fancy formula's why he couldnt, but its a tv show for christ sakes. No dude...This is when he FIRST ARRIVED ON NAMEK! He was not Freeza level then, he was above Cap Ginyu, but not by leagues. Don't judge Enel by the fact Luffy beat him, Enel DWARFS Luffy in power, but rubber is a natural insulator and is Enel's weakness, so he lost.

superkronick92
1. It's a manga for christ sakes.
2. Regular Frieza busting a Planet was filler
3. The only way anyone, at that point in the series, could bust a planet is via
chain reaction
4. This is Goku when he just landed on Namek meaning, he couldn't bust a planet

Black Adam
does Enel have his mantra ability?

Keollyn
Originally posted by superkronick92
I'm pretty sure it was in the manga

No it wasn't.

superkronick92
Really, oh well

Violent2Dope
Can't Enel go at lightspeed?

Accel
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Can't Enel go at lightspeed?
No.

Violent2Dope
Meh, he can still go perty fast.

Fire Ninja
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Goku could not bust a planet when he first arrived at Namek. Yes Enel can fly.


I'm glad somebody else realises that. The first person who was capable of busting a planet in DBZ was vegeta after being revived by dende. His power level bordered 1 million, which is the minimum power level needed to be able to bust planets.

Endless Mike
When was that stated? Never.

chickenlover98
Originally posted by superkronick92
1. It's a manga for christ sakes.
2. Regular Frieza busting a Planet was filler
3. The only way anyone, at that point in the series, could bust a planet is via
chain reaction
4. This is Goku when he just landed on Namek meaning, he couldn't bust a planet

the chain reaction was during friezas first form with which even vegeta could beat. therefore goku, who could almost beat frieza final form, can destroy planets. i love gic smile

Accel
Why would he need to be able to destroy a planet to beat Enel?

If that was what it took, wouldn't moon-destroying power suffice?

superkronick92
Originally posted by chickenlover98
the chain reaction was during friezas first form with which even vegeta could beat. therefore goku, who could almost beat frieza final form, can destroy planets. i love gic smile The way Frieza blew up planet Vegeta in the Bardock Special is not cannon. The only cannon time Freiza blew up a planet was Namek via chain reaction

chickenlover98
the point is goku can do tha too easily. if you can destroy the core and the moon, im sure u can beat someone low level like enel

atv2
Whether it was manga or Anime, Frieza got owned and that's that! As for Enel, it seems like the abilities described about him was something Goku could handle. In terms of the Namek saga, if we are just limiting Goku at the time he arrived on Namek, He should be able to hold his own, he was already at a high level when he came in. If we are taking the Namek saga all the way to Frieza Saga, expressing his full time on Namek all the way to its destruction, He would definitely own Frieza. I don't even think he would have to go Super Saiyan to defeat Enel. But that's my view on the subject.

dvampire
Enel ftw.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Accel
No. He move at close to light speed.

Accel
He hasn't demonstrated any thing even close to light speed. He couldn't even dodge a giant-ass golden ball coming towards him because it was too fast for him.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Accel
He hasn't demonstrated any thing even close to light speed. He couldn't even dodge a giant-ass golden ball coming towards him because it was too fast for him. So you never watched the skypiea arc? Thats why people were scared to even speak about him because he would be there in an instant.

Accel

iceman24567

Accel
Even though he's never ever shown that kind of speed, ever?

Funny how that shit works.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Accel
Even though he's never ever shown that kind of speed, ever?

Funny how that shit works. He showed it when he appeared right after his name was mentioned.

Accel
Originally posted by iceman24567
He showed it when he appeared right after his name was mentioned.
I don't think I could find a more vague statement if I tried.

When specifically?

leonheartmm
in all due fairness, enel didnt use his ultimate attack when he turns into raijin. that wud have been sumthing to see. and his ability to sense others is very good too, plus his speed is very great.

on the other hand however, goku was besting{int the beginning when he landed} a frieza who had just kicked away a planet destroying blast. so ill give it to goku as his ki blasts and speed are too great as well as durability and strength/reflexes. now make it goku as he was in the ORGINIAL dragon ball and well have the fight of the century on out hands.

dvampire
Enel wins. Goku can't hurt him, and Enel can basically just teleport and then hug Goku, frying him to death or just shock/stop his brain like he did to Robin. It really wouldn't matter at point in the series Goku we are using, as he doesn't have an immunity to lightining.

BradBalboa
dont these two fight in a one pice dragonball crossover, and goku wins !!

Goku COULD destroy planets when he fought Ginyu, Pre-Kiaoken Goku isnt planet destroyer, anythign from vegeta onwards he is !!

Endless Mike
The crossover is not canon, and he needed Luffy's help to win.

Not saying he'll lose, just pointing it out.

Also we never saw anyone destroy a planet in DBZ until Frieza destroyed Namek.

Goku wins this fight.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by BradBalboa
dont these two fight in a one pice dragonball crossover, and goku wins !!

Goku COULD destroy planets when he fought Ginyu, Pre-Kiaoken Goku isnt planet destroyer, anythign from vegeta onwards he is !! No, Goku really isn't.

He wins though.

BradBalboa
No he is !!!

Vegeta Galic Gun was going to destroy the planet, and Goku overpowered it . meaning...Goku= PLANET DESTROYER !!

En Sabah Nur X
Originally posted by Classic NES
http://www.animezen.net/images/anime/d/r/dragonball_z/gokubiopic.jpg

VS

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8025/eneru5nw.jpg




This is Goku when he first arrived on Namek. He has one senzu bean and Enel has access to the Maxim arc.

FUTURE Goku merges with the dragon, and basically becomes omnipotent, due to this future eventuality, even past goku is affected by retrocausality effects the waves of immense power flow from the future into the past, and explain why goku can't be beaten even when wielding a far smaller amount of power in the distant past. Dragon Ball Gt is cheesy and goku and pan have an adventure, but given godly powers trascending time*(dragon merger), all timelines fall within his domain of power.

Some bizarre anomalous quantum phenomena near statistically impossible event will occur and give him the win. That is unless he is the bad guy in which case he'll survive, but lose as none can oppose the light of absolute infinite, the form of the good.

iceman24567
Originally posted by BradBalboa
No he is !!!

Vegeta Galic Gun was going to destroy the planet, and Goku overpowered it . meaning...Goku= PLANET DESTROYER !! Umm no? When has Vegeta destroyed a planet hyperbole garbage.

Endless Mike
It's amazing that DBZ fanboys will still use their tactics of random hyperbole and making stuff up even in a fight where the DBZ side obviously wins

BradBalboa
Mate you need to go back and read or watch the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the saiyan saga !!
Vegetas galic gun was going to destroy the planet !! Goku overpowered his blast with the kamehameha and kai-ken X4 and equaled it with kai-ken X3 !!! Goku is planet destroy from king kai trainign onwards !! Plus if you count the anime, Vegeta destroyed planet aurilia with 2 fingers, and with ease !!

dvampire
Most of that is filler. Anyways, his attacks won't do damage against Enel, while Enel simply has to jolt Goku's brain to win.

Endless Mike
Yeah, he SAID he was going to destroy the planet, but he never proved it. That's not enough evidence. Let's just ignore the fact that he was having a nervous breakdown at the time and Goku himself said that he didn't know if Vegeta was telling the truth so he would have to gamble on it.

Oh and dvampire, Goku as a kid took a huge electric attack from Roshi and wasn't hurt... Enel never showed the ability to fry people's brains from the inside - when he attacked people many of them survived and were fine later. Also he could simply be blasted and scattered away by a strong enough ki attack, so that he couldn't reform.

dvampire
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah, he SAID he was going to destroy the planet, but he never proved it. That's not enough evidence. Let's just ignore the fact that he was having a nervous breakdown at the time and Goku himself said that he didn't know if Vegeta was telling the truth so he would have to gamble on it.

Oh and dvampire, Goku as a kid took a huge electric attack from Roshi and wasn't hurt... Enel never showed the ability to fry people's brains from the inside - when he attacked people many of them survived and were fine later. Also he could simply be blasted and scattered away by a strong enough ki attack, so that he couldn't reform.

How many volts was Roshi's attack? Enel can go up to millions of volts, his lightining is leagues above Roshi. Enel stoped Robins brain (he doesn't have to fry it, just stop it) and he never really tried to kill anyone, only fry them until they couldn't fight him anymore, he really didn't have to put effort in fighting them because he knew no one could stop him, but he has killed people before. And with mantra and the ability to teleport, he'll end the fight before a move is made by Goku. And I doubt Goku even kill Enel with ki since Enel has never been damage by any kind of energy in his appearance.

Endless Mike
You do know that voltage is a measure of electrical potential difference, not power, right? That's watts. The voltage is pretty irrelevant if you don't know the wattage.

Furthermore, you're using a no-limits fallacy by saying that he can survive any attack from energy since he survived Wiper's burn bazooka.... that doesn't really compare to something that can envelop his entire body and scatter him into space.

And since when could he teleport? He can move fast, but Luffy could keep up with him. Goku is much faster than Luffy.

Also, he simply injured Nico Robin on the shoulder and that KO'd her.... nothing about her brain. I never said he couldn't kill people, just that he never showed the abilities you are claiming.

dvampire
I thought he shocked her brain, I'm sure of that.

You didn't answer my question and you're also using no limits fallacy by just making him be able to be hurt by attacks when he was never shown to be hurt by such attacks. And then you just say BS like "that doesn't really compare to something that can envelop his entire body and scatter him into space", what the hell is Enel going to do? Just stand there? Can't he just blast Goku first? Ki still hasn't been proven to hurt Enel, and he's been hit by energy already, so again, I doubt ki blasts will be effective against him. He could just teleport around the planet, spamming lightning on Goku. You also forget he does have mantra and can teleport or in your case, he just move very fast; eitherway, he travels alot quicker than Goku.

Again, Enel wins. Goku doesn't have a way to defeat him, while Enel could just fry him.

BradBalboa
Read the Manga Vegeta says, dodge this and your planet is gone !! ( something like that) in the manga goku never says anything about vegeta not being able to do it !! Its common DBZ knowledge that vegeta was going to destroy the earth but Goku stopped him.
Asfor Enel being faster than Goku i doubt it, if Monkey D Luffy can keep up with him then so can Goku iv never seen Lufy do anythign speed wise that would make him anywhere near as fast as Goku. Its hard to determine but it seems Goku cracke dlight speed whilst trainign with Kami and Mr Pop weathe ror not it was just a figure of speach or not Goku is still faster than anyone from One Piece !

Endless Mike
Originally posted by dvampire
I thought he shocked her brain, I'm sure of that.

You didn't answer my question and you're also using no limits fallacy by just making him be able to be hurt by attacks when he was never shown to be hurt by such attacks.

Um, no, that's the exact opposite of a no - limits fallacy. A no - limits fallacy is saying he survived A, so therefore he could survive something way more powerful than A, when he never did. What happens when the blast envelops his entire body and scatters him so far away he can't regen?



Sure, but it won't do much. Not to mention Goku is faster.



Darkseid's Omega Effect hasn't been proven to hurt him either, does that mean it can't? No, because it was never used against him. Same here.

Furthermore, your argument is akin to saying that since a tank can survive a machine gun attack, it can surive a nuke. That's a classic no-limits fallacy.



He's never shown the ability to teleport that far.... in fact he doesn't teleport at all, just has high burst movement speed.



That's funny, I don't remember any particular speed feats that support that statement. Luffy was blitzing him to hell.



Goku has taken much worse and been unharmed. Goku could just scatter him across space with a kamehameha.



Of course he says it. The point is that just saying something isn't proof.



http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/DBZ/gokudoesntbelievevegeta.jpg

"I'll have to gamble on it"

As in "I don't know if he's telling the truth, but I better try to stop it anyway".



Appeal to anonymous authority. Vegeta SAID he was going to (right when he was having a mental breakdown and couldn't believe he was being beaten by a "low - class" Saiya-jin). That's hardly proof of anything - it's a hyperbole claim.



This is true.



Are you talking about when Mr. Popo said he had to be faster than lightning? For one thing, lightning isn't lightspeed, it's slower. Second of all, he also talked about tracking enemies by air movements, which would be useless if they were moving that fast (both light and lightning move many, many times faster than displaced air does). So it was obviously a figure of speech. Not to mention way after that the time and distance given to cross Snake Way were stated, and the speed was much less than light or lightning speed.



This is true, with the exception of Bartholemew Kuma, who can move at lightspeed (but not react that fast). However, since it really doesn't count as fighting speed for Kuma, you could say Goku's Shunkan Ido serves the same purpose which makes him faster, for all intents and purposes.

dvampire
So basically Enel wins. He can easily take Goku out by just frying him or giving his brain a good shock, while Goku can't do nothing to harm him with any attack. Goku shoots kamehameha at him it'll just pass right through him and even if Enel was to go in space, he can survive out in space, and he'll just come back (and shock Goku some more).

There hasn't been any arugment proving that Enel can be harmed by Goku's attacks. Just saying "he'll be blasted into space" without any evidence that even proves that Enel can be hit by energy isn't enough. While Enel has proven feats to back him up that energy attacks has no effect against him.

BradBalboa
No i find it extremely hard to belive that Enel can beat a planet buster like Goku !!

dvampire
Who cares if Goku is a planet buster, that doesn't mean he's invincible. His planet busting attack will be of little help against this opponent.

BradBalboa
I doubt Enel can take that kidna of firepower, plus luffy wa sbeaten the shit out of him, and it was seriously damaging him, and Goku hits hudreds of time sharder than luffy !! Goku could beat him with pur physical force !!

Keollyn
Goku would win. Being immortal, tanking lightning, and has the physical capabilities of harming spirits (if you want to interpret that as being able to touch Eneru is up to you) and he shouldn't have any problems beating him. It also doesn't hurt that he's faster too

iceman24567
Luffy is a rubberman. Rubber is a resistant to electricity Enel was up against his ultimate weakness. Goku is not rubber or even close Enel fries him.

Dark-Jaxx
Or Goku disperses all of Enel's particles with a Kamehameha.

boobsmagee
I'm sorry but are you guys serious? jesus....
i hate these threads, there so stupid

Goku would get owned
the only reason luffi beat him was because he's made of rubber
luffi was one of the few who could even beat him, if not the only
~exactly what iceman said

most of you appear to be clueless

all the dbz fanatics always act as though goku is a god, but he is no where near it, and at this point in dbz hes no where near his strongest level, but it doesn't matter because that wouldn't even help him much

BradBalboa
haha !! Enel zaps Goku, right even if it hurts unlucky goku will le *** happen again, and enel cant take goku in one on one combat i know that for sure !! In the one piece crossover enels lighting dose hurt goku, but for gods sake in cross overs gokus powered are downsized soo much its not even funny !! Goku wins easy

Endless Mike
Originally posted by dvampire
So basically Enel wins. He can easily take Goku out by just frying him or giving his brain a good shock

Except he's never done that, and Goku has taken way worse.



Not if his body is dispersed beyond his regeneration limit.



This is a no - limits fallacy. What part of this don't you understand?

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove he can survive an attack so far beyond anything he has ever taken.

He's never been hit with an energy attack that enveloped his entire body and had enough power to scatter all of his constituent particles thousands of kilometers away. He's never shown the ability to regenerate from something like that. You can't just assume he can.

Saying he can survive weak energy attacks like Wiper's burn bazooka means he can survive any energy attack is like saying that since a rock can survive a firecracker going off next to it it can survive a supernova. It's a ridiculous fallacy.



.... what? Since when?



What are you talking about? If you mean people from the afterlife in DBZ, those who retain their bodies in the afterlife are still physical beings. When Goku's grandpa and Goku himself came back to earth for one day, everyone could still touch them and they still interacted with physical matter normally.

BTW, it feels really weird arguing against both sides in a vs. thread.

Vvendeta
Is not that In the crossover Goku beat Enel?

I think It was a SSJ1 level Kamehame ha

Endless Mike
It was Goku and Luffy hitting him together or something.

Anyway crossovers aren't canon

Keollyn
Originally posted by Endless Mike




.... what? Since when?



What are you talking about? If you mean people from the afterlife in DBZ, those who retain their bodies in the afterlife are still physical beings. When Goku's grandpa and Goku himself came back to earth for one day, everyone could still touch them and they still interacted with physical matter normally.

Oh wait, we're talking about DB Goku roll eyes (sarcastic)



I do that quite often.

Vvendeta
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It was Goku and Luffy hitting him together or something.

Anyway crossovers aren't canon


MHHFyzbHawE

I am not sure, but cross epoch was a crossover writed by Toriyama and Oda, both authors of the originals.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Keollyn
Oh wait, we're talking about DB Goku roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yeah, I figured you knew that from the HUGE PICTURE OF HIM IN THE OP.

roll eyes (sarcastic)



Doesn't make it canon. Marvel vs. DC was written by Marvel and DC writers, it's not canon.

Not to mention Goku didn't fight Enel in Cross Epoch... actually Cross Epoch really doesn't make sense in the context of either the DB universe or the OP universe - it's just a fun little story.

Anyway Goku wins.

Keollyn
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah, I figured you knew that from the HUGE PICTURE OF HIM IN THE OP.

roll eyes (sarcastic)


Who read those? confused

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Keollyn
Who read those? confused

roll eyes (sarcastic)

VRTBEWWE
If Eneru's powerful enough to kill Goku using only electricity then why isn't he the "Strongest Man in The World"?

BradBalboa
Enel cant beat Goku, no chance !

uha
enel can breath in space goku can't

WHITEBEARD
Thread fails........

Slaanesh
enel FTW..goku can't harm him..i don't think kamehameha would work at all..he can just reform..just look at Buu..

Darkstorm Zero
Eneru's regeneration isn't anything like Buu's... Thats a bad analysis.

On that note though, Eneru isn't a weakling, and Goku will need to use his ki based attacks to win, big ones too, enough to disrupt Eneru's regeneration.

ThunderGodEneru
Eneru doesn't have regeneration at all. no expression

WHITEBEARD
Enel dies plain and simple.

BradBalboa
Goku was voted THE most powerfu Manga character of all time, i thin that status alone wins him this easy enough little "fight"...

Kento
That title voted on by fans mean nothing..When his own son is more powerful than him.

But he should still win.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by BradBalboa
Goku was voted THE most powerfu Manga character of all time, i thin that status alone wins him this easy enough little "fight"...

Fan votes don't count seeing as he isn't the most powerful manga character of all time. Hell Gohan trumped him at the end of DBZ.

Wei Phoenix
Wow Kento we must've had the same thing in mind.

Kento
lol It seems like it.

ThunderGodEneru
Enel wins with t3h lightning to the brain. estahuh

BradBalboa
how wud enels lighting even faze goku ?

ThunderGodEneru
Cause it would hit his brain. 131

Ridley_Prime
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4421/fmsvmuwg5.gif

BradBalboa
Goku has been hit through lighting before, he and the other z fighters generate it when they power up, hitting gouk with lighting in a serious fight wotn do shit, haha if it was just a normal episode it would hurt him hed go black :P

ThunderGodEneru
But he has never been hit by lightning to the brain. 131

Darkstorm Zero
But the brain doesn't feel pain wink

ThunderGodEneru
No, but if it dies, so does the body. 131

Endless Mike
You do realize to get to his brain the lightning would have to get past his skull first? I doubt it would.

Slaanesh
huh..enel could go in through his ears..or his eyes..

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by Endless Mike
You do realize to get to his brain the lightning would have to get past his skull first? I doubt it would. Lightning can go thruz anythingz!

Kirikaze Fuuma
shazam!

shane8874
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
No dude...This is when he FIRST ARRIVED ON NAMEK! He was not Freeza level then, he was above Cap Ginyu, but not by leagues. Don't judge Enel by the fact Luffy beat him, Enel DWARFS Luffy in power, but rubber is a natural insulator and is Enel's weakness, so he lost.


Actually vegeta when he first arrived on namek...beat freeza in his first form which freeza in that form did destroye planet vegeta!

How do we know how goku is effected when it comes to electricisty?

shane8874
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4421/fmsvmuwg5.gif

lol that is some funny shit right there!

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by shane8874
Actually vegeta when he first arrived on namek...beat freeza in his first form which freeza in that form did destroye planet vegeta!
Actually, they were tied from what I remember, and then Vegeta was outclassed when Frieza transformed.

Originally posted by shane8874
lol that is some funny shit right there!
131

BradBalboa
yehh vegeta and frieza where even, altough if it had been just veegta vs frieza, freiza would have still won, after their figh vegeta wa sout of breath, frieza was fine, he just totally outclassed vgeta when he transoformed

shane8874
So does that mean piccolo was stronger than vegeta when he arrived on namek after fusing with naoh?piccolo is the shit tho?

First_Tsurugi06
He was actually.

ThunderGodEneru
He was stronger until he received a power-up from almost dying and being revived from Dende.

And Vegeta slightly held the upper-hand when he fought first-form Freeza I believe, with Krillin mentioning he is stronger.

SSJ2Vegeta
Originally posted by BradBalboa
Mate you need to go back and read or watch the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the saiyan saga !!
Vegetas galic gun was going to destroy the planet !! Goku overpowered his blast with the kamehameha and kai-ken X4 and equaled it with kai-ken X3 !!! Goku is planet destroy from king kai trainign onwards !! Plus if you count the anime, Vegeta destroyed planet aurilia with 2 fingers, and with ease !!

I believe vegeta could have destroyed a planet ,also, because if he couldnt why would the writers put it down, basically there just saying vegeta is mad and at full power he will destroy the planet so goku must stop it. Some people act as if vegeta is a real person when they say he cant ,such as, he was having a breakdown at the time. The writers just put this down to tell you that vegeta is that strong he can destroy a planet

Oh ye and Goku would win this with ease, i have seen the one piece dragonball z crossover and they have seriosly under estimated dragonball z characters on purpose, imagine puttin goku in one piece world at full power, he could destroy anyone in one piece world with one hit accept enel because physical attacks dont damage him, but a beam on the other hand would wipe him out. And that is pretty much a fact because one piece characters are just human with good power for human standards, theyre like the farmer with the shotgun, except trained, except enel because he is a god, but luffy beat him and hes human.

Mr. Rhythmic
This isn't even a match. Current Goku beats Enel with one hand.

DopeSamurai
Ok. Lets use logic. First of all lightning moves at a ridiculously fast speed, like 90,000 miles per second. So if Oda actuaally knew physics, Enel probably could have raped Goku up the butt. But if we are relying on powers based on the mangas at the times of certain sagas, ok.

There are a lot of unknown factors here, that I am going to completely ignore. Such as Ki's effect on Enel.
Alright, first of all, Goku was about...15 times stronger than Captain Ginyu on his arrival on Namek. His Kaioken-less powerlevel was 90k. Not wanting to reveal his true power level to Captain Ginyu, he only used Kaioken x2. It says so in the manga. He literally says, "Kaioken x2" when he was capable of going x10 without any damage and x20 if completely necessary. When Jeice cheated and got Goku in Ginyu's grip he was considering having to use more power when Ginyu let him go.

So yeah, he was much stronger than previously stated.

Also, Eneru doesn't have any regeneration whatsoever. As far as I can remember, no One Piece member does. The logia abilities don't provide regeneration abilities, just an immunity to things that don't damage their specific logia materials.

So it would probably be a stalemate, unless Eneru magically figures out that he can use actual powers of lightning. Or of course if Goku managed to find a rubber band somewhere in the rubble of Tokyo. Then all he would have to do is shoot it at Eneru - Owned.

Since Ki doesn't really have any known and widely accepted physics, it is an unknown factor.

So yeah, unless Goku can't find a single piece of rubber in all of Tokyo, I would say Goku wins.

Dominic EX
C'mon guys, there's nothing in the anime world that could beat Goku.
Goku is the strongest anime character. Guess who's second: Doraemon. :P

Goku can even destroy a planet in just a single attack.

Q99
Originally posted by Dominic EX
C'mon guys, there's nothing in the anime world that could beat Goku.
Goku is the strongest anime character. Guess who's second: Doraemon. :P

Goku can even destroy a planet in just a single attack.

Oh there's plenty that can beat Goku. Gunbuster made a blast that covered most of the galaxy, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann *stands* on the galaxy and throws galaxies as shuriken (and is itself 1/30th the size of the Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann), and Ideon's self destruct destroyed the universe.


And that's just things that use direct power. Tohno Shiki from Tsukihime could kill him by stabbing him in his concept of death (yes, you read that right. Shiki's power is the eyes of death perception which allows him to see the lines and dots of a person, object, or concept's fated death, and by cutting or stabbing them kill anything with the concept of death in it).

XanatosForever
Act Cadenza big grin Or ReAct...is there a newer version of Melty Blood yet?

Kirikaze Fuuma
Originally posted by Q99
Oh there's plenty that can beat Goku. Gunbuster made a blast that covered most of the galaxy, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann *stands* on the galaxy and throws galaxies as shuriken (and is itself 1/30th the size of the Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann), and Ideon's self destruct destroyed the universe.


And that's just things that use direct power. Tohno Shiki from Tsukihime could kill him by stabbing him in his concept of death (yes, you read that right. Shiki's power is the eyes of death perception which allows him to see the lines and dots of a person, object, or concept's fated death, and by cutting or stabbing them kill anything with the concept of death in it).

Don't forget about Saint Seiya and Kami Tenchi. But Tohno Shiki... I doubt he has enough speed to touch Goku.

Q99
Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Don't forget about Saint Seiya and Kami Tenchi. But Tohno Shiki... I doubt he has enough speed to touch Goku.

Yea, he'd lose if Goku fought back, but the capability is there if there was surprise. Goku'd sense only a tiny bit of power from Shiki, so he wouldn't be worried much about defense.

Esomark
It's been said many times before that it's almost a cliche but Dark Schneider can easily solo the entire DBZverse.

Q99
And the Lord of Nightmare from Slayers or the really high ups from the Tenchiverse like the Chousin could literally destroy the universe.

NemeBro
Bobobo would spank Goku's ass.

Endless Mike
This thread is still going?

Keollyn
Originally posted by Endless Mike
This thread is still going?

I know, right?

I almost forgot I posted in this.

carver9
Anyone who doesnt think that goku couldnt destroy a planet BEFORE landing on the namekian planet knows NOTHING about DBZ.

By the way, goku wins this 10/10. Enel NEVER his entire career been hit by a punch matching gokus punching power.

This is a none fight.

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
A thread where Goku actually wins

Goku always win. You just underrate him and overrate everyone else. I cant WAIT until they open a thread up that me and you use to debate on daily. I would literally crush you because everything that I said in THAT thread was true. Faster than light, yeah right.

NemeBro
Originally posted by carver9
Anyone who doesnt think that goku couldnt destroy a planet BEFORE landing on the namekian planet knows NOTHING about DBZ.

By the way, goku wins this 10/10. Enel NEVER his entire career been hit by a punch matching gokus punching power.

This is a none fight. 1. Only he can't. The first confirmed DBZ planet buster was Freeza.

2. Enel has never been hit by a punch that was not rubber and will not be hit by Goku's.

If Goku wins this fight, it is not because of his physical strength.

carver9
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Only he can't. The first confirmed DBZ planet buster was Freeza.

2. Enel has never been hit by a punch that was not rubber and will not be hit by Goku's.

If Goku wins this fight, it is not because of his physical strength.

Yes he did possess enough power to destroy a planet. I'm not going to do all of the caculation crap to prove this but its pretty much common sense that he had the power level to do so and I'm basing this off of what I seen off of regular dragonball alone.

If someone a hundred times more weaker than you can destroy a moon with a simple blast then you possess far more KI that than person, a planet should be nothing but a mere play toy to that person.

I thought they made dragonball pretty much common sense with the power level scope. The more KI you have, the stronger you are, faster, more durable you are, and more destructive energy you can produce. confused

Endless Mike
The last time we debated I crushed all of your points and you ran away like a little girl.

Your arguments are retarded.

Case in point:

Originally posted by carver9
Yes he did possess enough power to destroy a planet. I'm not going to do all of the caculation crap to prove this but its pretty much common sense that he had the power level to do so and I'm basing this off of what I seen off of regular dragonball alone.

Translation: "I have no proof but just trust me okay?"



First of all, "100 times weaker" is simply a number you made up with no basis in fact. Second of all, if you knew anything about what you were talking about, you would realize that the earth's GBE is over 1800 times that of the moon.



Oh of course, no one is denying that. The problem is that you just use unfounded extrapolation. "This guy destroyed a planet, so this guy who is stronger than him can destroy the galaxy!" That's just stupid with no basis whatsoever in fact. Frieza didn't even destroy Namek with brute force, he used a chain reaction (since it took so long for the planet to explode). The only character in canon who actually demonstrated the ability to destroy an earth-size planet instantly was Kid Buu.

SpadeKing
Actually in a flashback they showed Vegeta before coming to Earth destroying a planet in seconds with a small blast.

Esomark
If you meant the episode where Vegeta and Nappa stop on a planet during their trek towards Earth, that whole episode is filler.

SpadeKing
Nope, it was during the majin buu saga.

I don't know if they stopped there, I know he blew it up from outside his saiyan pod in space.

Endless Mike
Filler and non-canon

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
The last time we debated I crushed all of your points and you ran away like a little girl.

Your arguments are retarded.

Case in point:



Translation: "I have no proof but just trust me okay?"



First of all, "100 times weaker" is simply a number you made up with no basis in fact. Second of all, if you knew anything about what you were talking about, you would realize that the earth's GBE is over 1800 times that of the moon.



Oh of course, no one is denying that. The problem is that you just use unfounded extrapolation. "This guy destroyed a planet, so this guy who is stronger than him can destroy the galaxy!" That's just stupid with no basis whatsoever in fact. Frieza didn't even destroy Namek with brute force, he used a chain reaction (since it took so long for the planet to explode). The only character in canon who actually demonstrated the ability to destroy an earth-size planet instantly was Kid Buu.

Naah, its more like you are in denial.

You didnt stomp ANYTHING, I asked you to prove that a character can FIGHT at the speed of light and you didnt show me one scan. You put up a scan of space flight and that was proven wrong from Mcduffie himself when he recently wrote something stating that this PERSON can only achieve light speed in space; just like I said 50 yrs ago. I then told you that hundreds of characters that cant even break the speed of sound on earth achieved light speed in space and showed you proof of this but you still throw out space flight scans like it proved a case or something. Your arguments were lame and provided no evidence and goind by showings of combat speed, goku during his child hood combat speed feats were much more impressive.

As for your post, again, if Picollo can destroy a moon with two fingers without even using half of his power level I am pretty sure a planet would be nothing to him. People in DBZ just didnt go around busting planets up but it was made quite known and sure that they had the power to do so. If a person can read what power level you have and can basically tell you WHAT you can do with that power level then its pretty much safe to say that they knew what they were talking about.

Thats like telling a scientist that they are wrong at something that they were trained all of their lives to know.

It was mentioned during the goku vs vegeta fight that they could bust planets and it holds weight. The reason WHY it holds weight is because 1). They can read powerlevels. They can tell how powerful a person is and if they are stronger or weaker than a person. 2). If character A can destroy a planet and character B is stronger than this person by a large gap then its pretty much safe to say that character B is also a planet buster.

You try to put DragonBall characters at levels that they surpassed after the raditz saga. Learn what reading "power levels" mean and come back and holla at me.

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Filler and non-canon

Filler in your eyes but the sad thing is the same person who did the manga also aided at doing the anime so that basically throw the "filler" sh** out of the window.

If he had no partake with the dbz anime then yes, you would have an argument but confused the sad thing is...............he did.

The anime is just as cannon as the manga.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, its more like you are in denial.

You didnt stomp ANYTHING, I asked you to prove that a character can FIGHT at the speed of light and you didnt show me one scan. You put up a scan of space flight and that was proven wrong from Mcduffie himself when he recently wrote something stating that this PERSON can only achieve light speed in space; just like I said 50 yrs ago.

That's the complete opposite of what he said. Furthermore going lightspeed on earth would wreck the planet, so obviously he's not going to do that normally.



No you didn't.



Because they have blurry lines and afterimages? roll eyes (sarcastic)



He did no such thing. He used one hand (as if it matters what part of your body you use anyway, as they can channel as much ki as they want into any body part) and it was never said he "wasn't even using half of his power", you made that up.



Says you, aka baseless claim with no evidence. Please learn the science behind these things before claiming them.



Not if they have no reference point. Before the Frieza saga, none of the main characters had ever seen a planet being destroyed, so how would they know if someone had enough power to do so? If a scientist like Bulma said it then I would be more inclined to believe it but as it stands it's just hyperbole.



Wrong, because scientists use - get this - actual science to determine things. In other words, it's actually quantifiable by the laws of physics, not just "wow this guy feels stronger than what I have felt before, I guess he can destroy the planet" with no reference point.



No it doesn't. That's called hyperbole. Vegeta also said he was the strongest in the universe in that very same scene, yet he himself knew that wasn't true (he knew Frieza was stronger than him). Why should we believe him when he was obviously having a mental breakdown?



But like I said, they have no reference point. Goku had never seen a planet being destroyed by then, so how would he know how much it took to do so?



It depends on the method used. If one character can destroy a planet via some weird chain reaction, then another person could be stronger but lack that particular ability.



Power levels are completely inconsistent and useless for cross universe comparisons. The farmer with a PL of 5 would have more power than nuclear weapons if we scale it by Roshi destroying the moon with a PL of 139.



Wrong. Akira Toriyama did nothing more than contribute one or two character designs for the anime. He didn't write the plotlines or anything. In fact in an interview he stated that he was constantly surprised by how the anime studio did things.

Also the fact that you don't even know the name of the person who created the entire Dragonball franchise is yet more proof that you are talking out of your ass and have no idea what you are speaking of. I bet you couldn't even name any other work he did if you were asked (no googling).



No it's not. Only the original work, aka the manga, is canon. The anime is simply an adaptation by the studio. In fact they are remaking it and removing most of the filler.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not if they have no reference point. Before the Frieza saga, none of the main characters had ever seen a planet being destroyed, so how would they know if someone had enough power to do so? If a scientist like Bulma said it then I would be more inclined to believe it but as it stands it's just hyperbole.



Wrong, because scientists use - get this - actual science to determine things. In other words, it's actually quantifiable by the laws of physics, not just "wow this guy feels stronger than what I have felt before, I guess he can destroy the planet" with no reference point.



No it doesn't. That's called hyperbole. Vegeta also said he was the strongest in the universe in that very same scene, yet he himself knew that wasn't true (he knew Frieza was stronger than him). Why should we believe him when he was obviously having a mental breakdown?



But like I said, they have no reference point. Goku had never seen a planet being destroyed by then, so how would he know how much it took to do so?



It depends on the method used. If one character can destroy a planet via some weird chain reaction, then another person could be stronger but lack that particular ability.



Power levels are completely inconsistent and useless for cross universe comparisons. The farmer with a PL of 5 would have more power than nuclear weapons if we scale it by Roshi destroying the moon with a PL of 139.



Wrong. Akira Toriyama did nothing more than contribute one or two character designs for the anime. He didn't write the plotlines or anything. In fact in an interview he stated that he was constantly surprised by how the anime studio did things.

Also the fact that you don't even know the name of the person who created the entire Dragonball franchise is yet more proof that you are talking out of your ass and have no idea what you are speaking of. I bet you couldn't even name any other work he did if you were asked (no googling).



No it's not. Only the original work, aka the manga, is canon. The anime is simply an adaptation by the studio. In fact they are remaking it and removing most of the filler.

Saiyans were sent alone planet to planet to destroy them, in a flashback (7 seconds at the most) Vegeta is seen destroying a planet. Never did he say he hasn't seen one destroyed

Arguing the laws of physics with any anime makes no sense cause they're constantly broken ermm

Vegeta always says he is the strongest until the majin saga where he notices he'll never pass Goku.

If Goku never seen a planet destroyed but Vegeta has, point was?

50 to 5 is a huge difference in power levels on dbz ermm

For the most part still accurate, I doubt he would've let them change it around if he was still more a part of it, otherwise it would've ended up like GT.

Although it wasn't directed at me Dragon Quest and its pretty good game series

DBZ Kai, they also added in new fight scenes, I plan on watching it soon, they're around the frieza fight already.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Saiyans were sent alone planet to planet to destroy them, in a flashback (7 seconds at the most) Vegeta is seen destroying a planet. Never did he say he hasn't seen one destroyed

Stop using filler.



Which is what you have to make allowances for, not just say you can ignore them whenever you want.



Vegeta knew Frieza was stronger than him. That's why he was afraid to take him on without getting stronger first, and that's why he wanted to use the dragonballs to make himself immortal.



Point was his argument relied on Goku believing him, whereas I already pointed out that Vegeta was not in his right state of mind when he made that statement.



Of course but it's not a logical scale so it's impossible to quantify by how much



Believe it or not there are a lot of anime adaptations of manga that completely change the story, look at Trigun or the first Fullmetal Alchemist anime for example. Toriyama had no direct involvement with the anime, he didn't write the plot for the filler episodes, like I said the most he did was contribute some character designs (like Gregory, the grasshopper on King Kai's planet)



Yes although I was asking carver since he seems pretty ignorant.



Yes there's still filler in Kai but for the most part it's more true to the manga than the first anime since they got rid of a lot of filler.

SpadeKing
Vegeta always thinks he is the strongest, until someone he knows is stronger appears, he only knew Frieza was stronger after hearing about those transformations I just don't think he knew by how much.

I'm not sure how much for the power levels, I just know 5 shouldn't be that much... What would Hercule's power level be hmm

I only got to see one episode of trigun before they took it off tv and the first two episodes of full metal and some random eps before they changed the tv schedule here.
Then again I never read the Mangas for those.

I know he only did drawings, but they had to let him look at the script, I guess he agreed to it all as long as it would agree with his manga or if he just liked the script (i.e. like he said for DB Evolution... I personally think he lied).

I felt just about as bad about the movie for that game than I did for DB Evolution facepalm

I hope they do it in English and air it here or if they did do it in English I hope I can find it, all I have is Japanese with English subs

Endless Mike
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Vegeta always thinks he is the strongest, until someone he knows is stronger appears, he only knew Frieza was stronger after hearing about those transformations I just don't think he knew by how much.

No, he knew Frieza was stronger, or else he would have tried to challenge him first. There's a reason he wanted to make himself immortal with the dragonballs. He knew he was no match for Frieza.



The point is the the scale doesn't make sense so as a predictive algorithm, it's worthless. You can use it to tell that a character with a higher PL will beat one with a low PL, but that's pretty much it. Toriyama himself gave up on using it after the Frieza saga since it was too confusing and inconsistent.



The mangas are completely different, the anime adaptations started by following the manga but they eventually diverged into completely different plots. Another example is the first Hellsing anime.



Well I don't want to imply anything bad about the guy, but most people place making money above artistic integrity. So if it will sell, the studio makes it.



Which movie are you talking about?

SpadeKing
Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, he knew Frieza was stronger, or else he would have tried to challenge him first. There's a reason he wanted to make himself immortal with the dragonballs. He knew he was no match for Frieza.

I thought he only started looking for them after he first got out of the rejuvenation chamber and beat zarbon, I think Zarbon was the one who let the news out about Friezas transformations too.


Originally posted by Endless Mike
The point is the the scale doesn't make sense so as a predictive algorithm, it's worthless. You can use it to tell that a character with a higher PL will beat one with a low PL, but that's pretty much it. Toriyama himself gave up on using it after the Frieza saga since it was too confusing and inconsistent.

being over 9000 wasn't too impressive when 20 episodes later there is someone over 1,000,000. I guess after that power level jump I would give up too.


Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well I don't want to imply anything bad about the guy, but most people place making money above artistic integrity. So if it will sell, the studio makes it.

I paid... I felt betrayed.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Which movie are you talking about?

The Dragon Quest movie which became an automatic Sci-fi channel original. I didn't have high hopes as soon as I heard it would premiere on the sci-fi channel, even worse they allowed The Asylum, to produce it.

Q99
-being over 9000 wasn't too impressive when 20 episodes later there is someone over 1,000,000. I guess after that power level jump I would give up too.
-

To be fair, that was around three seasons later.


-I'm not sure how much for the power levels, I just know 5 shouldn't be that much... What would Hercule's power level be
-

I've heard that the strength gauges they used at one point did reflect power level, so 140 iirc (he *is* super strong, just not ki strong).

NemeBro
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I bet you couldn't even name any other work he did if you were asked (no googling). Oh I know! Um... Dr. Slump! Sandland! =D

NemeBro
Sorry it took so long to reply, things and whatnot.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes he did possess enough power to destroy a planet. I'm not going to do all of the caculation crap to prove this but its pretty much common sense that he had the power level to do so and I'm basing this off of what I seen off of regular dragonball alone.

If someone a hundred times more weaker than you can destroy a moon with a simple blast then you possess far more KI that than person, a planet should be nothing but a mere play toy to that person.

I thought they made dragonball pretty much common sense with the power level scope. The more KI you have, the stronger you are, faster, more durable you are, and more destructive energy you can produce. confused 1. Circular logic mah good man. Why should I accept a statement from you without so much as reasoning behind it?

2. ... No... You do not realise how difficult it would actually be to destroy the planet Earth. All of our nuclear arms detonated at once in one spot would not even breach the crust. The moon is considerably easier to destroy.

3. Of course you are. But by how much is not elaborated on, all power levels are good for is determining who can beat who.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by Q99
-being over 9000 wasn't too impressive when 20 episodes later there is someone over 1,000,000. I guess after that power level jump I would give up too.
-

To be fair, that was around three seasons later.


-I'm not sure how much for the power levels, I just know 5 shouldn't be that much... What would Hercule's power level be
-

I've heard that the strength gauges they used at one point did reflect power level, so 140 iirc (he *is* super strong, just not ki strong).

That jump happened with frieza's power level, that was only one season later.

I've heard around that much for Hercule, but he doesn't seem to have been able to do the type of damage Goku did in Dragonball at times (they had him around 139), but Hercule never really did fight much.
So Hercule could be a moon buster if he learned the Kamehameha wave.

Q99
9000 was when Goku first showed up, Nappa fight. Then entire Veg fight. Then Namek.

Namek had a whole season before the Freiza fight (the trip + Zarbon & Dedoria + the Ginyu).

Frieza didn't get 1 mil until second form, which was in the second season on Namek.

Hm, ok, so two, not three, but pre-Nappa vs Goku to second form Frieza is quite a few episodes later.

NemeBro
Goku was actually only about 8,000 in PL, over 9,000 was a translation error.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by SpadeKing
I thought he only started looking for them after he first got out of the rejuvenation chamber and beat zarbon, I think Zarbon was the one who let the news out about Friezas transformations too.

He always had his own agenda, when he was looking for the Dragonballs on earth it was ostensibly to give them to Frieza but he really wanted to use them for himself so he could become stronger.



What, you mean the punching machine? That has nothing to do with PL, it's a measure of physical strength that works completely differently. Master Roshi was 139, no way Mr. Satan is stronger than him. Roshi was casually supersonic (he could catch bullets from a machine gun), Mr. Satan would find that kind of thing to be impossible for him.

NemeBro
ITZ ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORZ!!!

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's the complete opposite of what he said. Furthermore going lightspeed on earth would wreck the planet, so obviously he's not going to do that normally.



No you didn't.



Because they have blurry lines and afterimages? roll eyes (sarcastic)



He did no such thing. He used one hand (as if it matters what part of your body you use anyway, as they can channel as much ki as they want into any body part) and it was never said he "wasn't even using half of his power", you made that up.



Says you, aka baseless claim with no evidence. Please learn the science behind these things before claiming them.



Not if they have no reference point. Before the Frieza saga, none of the main characters had ever seen a planet being destroyed, so how would they know if someone had enough power to do so? If a scientist like Bulma said it then I would be more inclined to believe it but as it stands it's just hyperbole.



Wrong, because scientists use - get this - actual science to determine things. In other words, it's actually quantifiable by the laws of physics, not just "wow this guy feels stronger than what I have felt before, I guess he can destroy the planet" with no reference point.



No it doesn't. That's called hyperbole. Vegeta also said he was the strongest in the universe in that very same scene, yet he himself knew that wasn't true (he knew Frieza was stronger than him). Why should we believe him when he was obviously having a mental breakdown?



But like I said, they have no reference point. Goku had never seen a planet being destroyed by then, so how would he know how much it took to do so?



It depends on the method used. If one character can destroy a planet via some weird chain reaction, then another person could be stronger but lack that particular ability.



Power levels are completely inconsistent and useless for cross universe comparisons. The farmer with a PL of 5 would have more power than nuclear weapons if we scale it by Roshi destroying the moon with a PL of 139.



Wrong. Akira Toriyama did nothing more than contribute one or two character designs for the anime. He didn't write the plotlines or anything. In fact in an interview he stated that he was constantly surprised by how the anime studio did things.

Also the fact that you don't even know the name of the person who created the entire Dragonball franchise is yet more proof that you are talking out of your ass and have no idea what you are speaking of. I bet you couldn't even name any other work he did if you were asked (no googling).



No it's not. Only the original work, aka the manga, is canon. The anime is simply an adaptation by the studio. In fact they are remaking it and removing most of the filler.

He never said going LIGHT SPEED on earth would destroy it, he said going he keeps his speed at a certain PACE so that he wont destroy the area that he is flying over which makes sense.

How about this; read the HP Doomsday arc where Doomsday is on the moon and Superman fly off to the moon to fight Doomsday. Superman ADMITS that space=speed. These are his exact words, "I need to hurry up and get to the moon, due to there being no gravity doomsday can cover the moon in seconds". confused What does that sound like to you? By the way, you lied, McDuffie did admit that Superman can only achieve lightspeed in space.

So we ignore what was said on panel huh?

Answer this:

Can Superman destroy a planet? Dont say yes because there is no proof that he can. He had to achieve light speed in space to destroy something that had the mass of earths moon and it almost killed him.
Then we have another instance where it took the entire kryptonian race to move a moon that had the weight of earth moon back into orbit.

How fast is Supermans combat speed? Dont say light since we have no evidence proving this?

Whats the temperature of his heat vision? Again, think about what you say since we cant trust on panel statements (kind of like you are doing with DBZ).

I will be waiting for your answers Mike.

The reason I think that Goku combat speed is greater than the people that we debate about is because people like Darkseid, Kalibak, Grundy, Mongul, Titus, Konvikt, people that wouldnt have a DREAM or PRAYER at hitting Goku.

Again, if Picollo who had a powerlevel in the hundreds can destroy a moon, someone who power level is a couple of thousand times higher should be able to rip a planet to shreds but only common sense would know this.

Endless Mike
Carver, if you want to debate me, try responding point - by - point. It's much easier and quote tags are really not that difficult to use.

Originally posted by carver9
He never said going LIGHT SPEED on earth would destroy it, he said going he keeps his speed at a certain PACE so that he wont destroy the area that he is flying over which makes sense.

And the fact that he has gone lightspeed in space but not done it on earth (at least over long distances) is not relevant to this at all?



I am absolutely sure you are misquoting that because there is gravity on the moon. If anything he just meant that Doomsday could jump higher there, which is irrelevant because we are not gauging Superman's speed by how far he can jump.



Where? He said that Superman can go FTL by moving through hyperspace. Hyperspace =/= space, if you read or watched science fiction you would understand what the concept of hyperspace means.



You mean the hyperspace thing? Tell me, what do you think "hyperspace" means?



There's just as much proof that he can as there is that Goku can. Goku has never destroyed any planets, in case you forgot.



Read the comic again. He was moving at relativistic speed, which is under lightspeed, in order to build up kinetic energy via relativity (do you understand how the theory of relativity works?) Furthermore, it didn't "almost kill him", you made that up, he was only knocked out, and that was a low showing anyway. The point that it was a construct by Shadow Thief and thus had different properties than normal matter is also evidence against this as a limit. He has done much more impressive feats and survived much more impressive impacts. If I used the same logic you are using against DBZ, I could say something like when androids 16, 17, and 18 were awakened, Trunks hit them with what he said was his most powerful attack, but all it did was destroy the top of a mountain. Therefore SSJ1 Trunks can't destroy more than a mountain. Of course you would scream bloody murder at this accusation since powerscaling from much more impressive feats means that's not really his maximum.



First of all, it was Callisto, which is significantly more massive than earth's moon. Second of all, you are being dishonest by ignoring the particular events surrounding that situation, the Kryptonians had used some kind of technology to put a physics - warping forcefield around it, which obviously meant that the amount of physical force used to move it would not be the same, in fact physical force might not have had any effect at all, that's why the Thanagarians needed to use their Nth metal to disrupt the forcefield.

BTW evidence Superman can destroy a planet:

http://yfrog.com/72supermanplanetbusting1j - Says he can
http://i44.tinypic.com/fvjn68.jpg - Says he can again

(I freely admit that statements are not enough to prove it, but you seem to take every DBZ character statement at face value so if you weren't a hypocrite you would take these at face value too)

http://i42.tinypic.com/oj1quc.jpg - Here he is destroying a meteor which could have demolished the earth. If you know basic physics (and you obviously don't, so I'll spell it out for you), that means it would have to be moving fast enough to have enough kinetic energy to destroy the planet. Therefore, when Superman destroyed it, he was overcoming that kinetic energy. In other words, Superman > Meteor > Earth.

In the very same story arc where the incident with the shadow moon occurred (not posting scans since I'm assuming you read it, however I will if you request), Starbreaker had actually pulled the earth out of orbit towards the sun, which takes more energy than simply destroying it. Superman and Hal pulled it back against Starbreaker's power combined with the sun's gravity.

Here we can see him destroying a Kryptonian battleship:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ii9a9d.jpg

That same battleship was capable of flying through stars unharmed. Here's a hint: If the earth was in the center of a star, it would not survive.

http://i43.tinypic.com/10gaa2c.jpg - Batman believes an alternate Superman (around the same power as the original) when he says he can destroy the planet. Batman is a scientist who knows these things.

I would also point out the time he threatened to destroy the earth to stop several earth elementals, and they believed him (as they embody the forces of the earth itself, they would know). However I don't have those scans on my PC and I don't want to waste any more time digging through the respect thread trying to find them.




Actually we do. When Max Lord controlled Superman, he fought Wonder Woman across the earth and to the sun and back in 1 minute and 54 seconds. Light takes 8 minutes to reach earth from the sun. Of course I can predict your response, you would say he can only do that in space. While he won't actually move lightspeed or faster on earth he can react to things at that speed, here is proof:

http://i40.tinypic.com/4gewj.jpg - Here he is able to not only see the Flash running past him at lightspeed, but recognize that it is Barry along with Wally.

http://i43.tinypic.com/20ijfol.jpg - Here he is able to perceive Swamp Thing's astral form moving at the speed of light. Don't counter by saying he didn't dodge it, after all he didn't expect it to happen at all and it was only inches in front of his face, and like I said, moving faster than light on earth would do too much damage, plus he has gotten faster since then.

Now I present the same challenge to you - How fast is Goku's reaction speed? I'd like to see you actually try to quantify something rather than saying "LOL LOOK HE DODGED THIS KI BLAST WHICH MEANS HE IS SUPER FASTER THAN LIGHT EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW FAST IT WAS MOVING"



We can if a scientist who is knowledgeable about the subject is basing them on experimental data. As opposed to a random villain bragging that he can destroy the earth/solar system/whatever.



Why? Because you say so? Darkseid is actually faster than Superman on many occasions. As for Grundy, the nature of his power varies every time he is resurrected, sometimes he's weak enough for street level guys to take him on and sometimes he can wreck teams of top tiers. Mongul Jr. actually taught Superman martial arts and high speed fighting techniques. Furthermore, there is a thing called PIS and CIS, meaning he doesn't always speedblitz everyone, although in a bloodlusted vs. forum battle he would. Second of all, you are judging the speed of many of those characters with circular reasoning. Konvikt was owning the JLA, it's safe to say that he is very fast. If the Konvikt fight was drawn with a lot of blurry afterimages like in DBZ, then would you accept he was fast?

I could do the same kind of thing by saying that the Z senshi were owned by androids 17 and 18, even though the two have no notable speed feats and their greatest destructive feats are small cities/mountains. Therefore anyone who can destroy mountains can kick the shit out of Vegeta. You understand that's exactly the same kind of argument you're using, right?



No, that would be wrong as you are simply ignorant of the physics involved. The equation for gravitational binding energy is determined by the mass of a body, its radius, and the gravitational constant, and increases exponentially. The energy required to destroy the earth is around 1800 times that of the energy required to destroy the moon. Furthermore, power levels themselves are an inconsistent system that were dropped by Toriyama after the Frieza saga since they made no sense. They don't scale directly with speed, strength, destructive capacity, or anything.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by NemeBro
Goku was actually only about 8,000 in PL, over 9,000 was a translation error.

9,000 became a more epic win, flows better.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He always had his own agenda, when he was looking for the Dragonballs on earth it was ostensibly to give them to Frieza but he really wanted to use them for himself so he could become stronger.

Did him and Nappa even really plan on taking the dragonballs anywhere near Frieza? I figured Vegeta was just going to wish for immortality while on Earth, then go to find Frieza and tell him about the dragonballs and fight.

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike

I am absolutely sure you are misquoting that because there is gravity on the moon. If anything he just meant that Doomsday could jump higher there, which is irrelevant because we are not gauging Superman's speed by how far he can jump.



Where? He said that Superman can go FTL by moving through hyperspace. Hyperspace =/= space, if you read or watched science fiction you would understand what the concept of hyperspace means.



You mean the hyperspace thing? Tell me, what do you think "hyperspace" means?



There's just as much proof that he can as there is that Goku can. Goku has never destroyed any planets, in case you forgot.



Read the comic again. He was moving at relativistic speed, which is under lightspeed, in order to build up kinetic energy via relativity (do you understand how the theory of relativity works?) Furthermore, it didn't "almost kill him", you made that up, he was only knocked out, and that was a low showing anyway. The point that it was a construct by Shadow Thief and thus had different properties than normal matter is also evidence against this as a limit. He has done much more impressive feats and survived much more impressive impacts. If I used the same logic you are using against DBZ, I could say something like when androids 16, 17, and 18 were awakened, Trunks hit them with what he said was his most powerful attack, but all it did was destroy the top of a mountain. Therefore SSJ1 Trunks can't destroy more than a mountain. Of course you would scream bloody murder at this accusation since powerscaling from much more impressive feats means that's not really his maximum.



First of all, it was Callisto, which is significantly more massive than earth's moon. Second of all, you are being dishonest by ignoring the particular events surrounding that situation, the Kryptonians had used some kind of technology to put a physics - warping forcefield around it, which obviously meant that the amount of physical force used to move it would not be the same, in fact physical force might not have had any effect at all, that's why the Thanagarians needed to use their Nth metal to disrupt the forcefield.

BTW evidence Superman can destroy a planet:

http://yfrog.com/72supermanplanetbusting1j - Says he can
http://i44.tinypic.com/fvjn68.jpg - Says he can again

(I freely admit that statements are not enough to prove it, but you seem to take every DBZ character statement at face value so if you weren't a hypocrite you would take these at face value too)

http://i42.tinypic.com/oj1quc.jpg - Here he is destroying a meteor which could have demolished the earth. If you know basic physics (and you obviously don't, so I'll spell it out for you), that means it would have to be moving fast enough to have enough kinetic energy to destroy the planet. Therefore, when Superman destroyed it, he was overcoming that kinetic energy. In other words, Superman > Meteor > Earth.

In the very same story arc where the incident with the shadow moon occurred (not posting scans since I'm assuming you read it, however I will if you request), Starbreaker had actually pulled the earth out of orbit towards the sun, which takes more energy than simply destroying it. Superman and Hal pulled it back against Starbreaker's power combined with the sun's gravity.

Here we can see him destroying a Kryptonian battleship:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ii9a9d.jpg

That same battleship was capable of flying through stars unharmed. Here's a hint: If the earth was in the center of a star, it would not survive.

http://i43.tinypic.com/10gaa2c.jpg - Batman believes an alternate Superman (around the same power as the original) when he says he can destroy the planet. Batman is a scientist who knows these things.

I would also point out the time he threatened to destroy the earth to stop several earth elementals, and they believed him (as they embody the forces of the earth itself, they would know). However I don't have those scans on my PC and I don't want to waste any more time digging through the respect thread trying to find them.




Actually we do. When Max Lord controlled Superman, he fought Wonder Woman across the earth and to the sun and back in 1 minute and 54 seconds. Light takes 8 minutes to reach earth from the sun. Of course I can predict your response, you would say he can only do that in space. While he won't actually move lightspeed or faster on earth he can react to things at that speed, here is proof:

http://i40.tinypic.com/4gewj.jpg - Here he is able to not only see the Flash running past him at lightspeed, but recognize that it is Barry along with Wally.

http://i43.tinypic.com/20ijfol.jpg - Here he is able to perceive Swamp Thing's astral form moving at the speed of light. Don't counter by saying he didn't dodge it, after all he didn't expect it to happen at all and it was only inches in front of his face, and like I said, moving faster than light on earth would do too much damage, plus he has gotten faster since then.

Now I present the same challenge to you - How fast is Goku's reaction speed? I'd like to see you actually try to quantify something rather than saying "LOL LOOK HE DODGED THIS KI BLAST WHICH MEANS HE IS SUPER FASTER THAN LIGHT EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW FAST IT WAS MOVING"



We can if a scientist who is knowledgeable about the subject is basing them on experimental data. As opposed to a random villain bragging that he can destroy the earth/solar system/whatever.



Why? Because you say so? Darkseid is actually faster than Superman on many occasions. As for Grundy, the nature of his power varies every time he is resurrected, sometimes he's weak enough for street level guys to take him on and sometimes he can wreck teams of top tiers. Mongul Jr. actually taught Superman martial arts and high speed fighting techniques. Furthermore, there is a thing called PIS and CIS, meaning he doesn't always speedblitz everyone, although in a bloodlusted vs. forum battle he would. Second of all, you are judging the speed of many of those characters with circular reasoning. Konvikt was owning the JLA, it's safe to say that he is very fast. If the Konvikt fight was drawn with a lot of blurry afterimages like in DBZ, then would you accept he was fast?

I could do the same kind of thing by saying that the Z senshi were owned by androids 17 and 18, even though the two have no notable speed feats and their greatest destructive feats are small cities/mountains. Therefore anyone who can destroy mountains can kick the shit out of Vegeta. You understand that's exactly the same kind of argument you're using, right?



No, that would be wrong as you are simply ignorant of the physics involved. The equation for gravitational binding energy is determined by the mass of a body, its radius, and the gravitational constant, and increases exponentially. The energy required to destroy the earth is around 1800 times that of the energy required to destroy the moon. Furthermore, power levels themselves are an inconsistent system that were dropped by Toriyama after the Frieza saga since they made no sense. They don't scale directly with speed, strength, destructive capacity, or anything.

Your entire argument was pointless.

Ok, first I want to bring up something that make your argument just pointless about speed.

Proof that space flight means crap.

We have vulcan, someone that flew to the shiar empire thats on the other side of the Galaxy and it took him a week to do this. Then we have him flying by planets at the speed of light easily.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/RespectThread/Vulcan/fights/random/fight%201/1.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/RespectThread/Vulcan/fights/random/fight%202/1.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/RespectThread/Vulcan/fights/random/fight%202/2.jpg

But he almost die from a bullet. Failed to even notice it.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Imperial%20Guard/Kallark-ReacttoBullet.jpg

So with your arguments you are basically saying that a scientist would know about Superman and Goku powers better than what they would know. Well, how about this, a scientist stated that Black Adam is more powerful than superman, do you agree?

In regards to your moon comment, Batman said that it had ALL of the properties of the moon, nothing else was mentioned to help your case and it koed him.

Then we have the gems on the moon that was heading towards the planet which was deactivated and it took the entire kryptonian race to put the moon back into orbit. No reason to say that was a low showing since it happened twice in less than a year.

You cant call it PIS about Superman getting tagged consistently by slow character since, well, it has happened his entire career.

By the way, you brought up Superman seeing flash when flash was being chased by the black racer, you do know that the humans along with darkseid also seen flash when he jumped out of the portal. Didnt Darkseid shoot a blast at Flash? Now prove that Darkseid have light speed reaction.

You showed me nothing to help your case and lol at you bringing up the androids since we both know that they are>>>frieza and frieza destroyed a planet and shot nukes out of his finger tips.

Then you bring up the mongul jr training when in that same comic Superman admitted that Earths gravity take its toll on his powers and again, Superman admitted that Doomsday gained speed when being on the moon.

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