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Ok, we've waited long enough. Now this is going to be the definitive Supes vs Goku thread. Ok, here are the stipulations for the match.

1. Goku thinks Superman destroyed the Earth and all of his other friends and allies.

2. Superman thinks Goku destroyed the Earth including Lois, Perry, Jimmy and all of his other friends and family.

Both are willing to kill

Fight takes place on a deserted planet Earth, Mega-Bloodlust is on!

Lets settle this!

This has been closed like three times.

Did you get mod permission?

I kinda doubt it.

Ya, Wrathful Dwarf said it was alright

I copied this from the Goku vs. Supes thread further down, this guy made some excellent points.

People weaker and slower then Goku have showen to be able to do normal things at super speed.
That throws out the claim that they can't be fast while talking. (someone said cell had enough time to say something before goku release his warp kamehameha wave on him)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2100/040604dp7.gif
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4837/040605eo0.gif
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9578/040606ac3.gif
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5744/040607sa8.gif
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4121/040608zf5.gif
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/724/040609au0.gif
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2489/040610we2.gif
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3710/040611oz5.gif

Some people say that Goku takes hours to fly accross planets.
These people never post a scan of this. Goku is now far stronger/faster then the ginu force. This is before he reach the first SuperSaiyan level
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4008/db23116zt8.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7351/db23117ze0.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9182/db23120rd9.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4532/db23121ar7.jpg

Some people say supes is faster
Supes has never been able to instantly get to top speed like the Z fighter do. Even at his top speed his effect on the enviroment isnt much diffrent from denda (who is one of the weakest namics)
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/9101/0869a916yt.jpg
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1664/db29112qh6.gif

Some people say Goku could not stand up to the power of a nuke.
This explosion from Piccol is far more powerful then then a nuke (the entire city was either blown away or vaporised) - This was way back in Dragon ball (not part of z).
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5679/161007fm1.gif
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9481/161008ox1.gif
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7843/161009ej9.gif
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1605/161010of7.gif
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2452/161011tf8.gif
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8021/161012jk8.gif

Some people say Goku needs alot of time to transform or powerup a attack
Here is Goku transforming to SSJ3 before Superbuu can attack(He can always powerup even more if he has too)
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3149/411708zk9.gif
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2899/411709wk7.gif
Here is Goku doing a Kamehameha to counter a attack from Napa, who was right in his face when releasing his attack.
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4184/dbz137rx6.jpg
Goku has can also powerup while fighting he does not have to sit still.
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/333/db26180hu6.gif
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3447/db26181qj4.gif
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4360/db26182zm1.gif
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6929/db26183ir7.gif

Supers looses heaps of power when he is hit by powerful attacks
Wonderwoman attacks is a weak compared to Goku and Supes. She manage to weaken Supes enought so he could rescue his friends quickly. Can you imagine Goku hits. He could output solor system attack that would do a tremedies amout of damage.
These are the pics that I saw Wonderwoman weakening Supes.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5495/1axs0.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5263/2ani3.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9869/3awp0.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3460/4afd2.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3307/5asc7.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1585/6avc1.jpg

Supes has never showen to be as powerful as Goku
He could barly vaporise a bunch of weak doomsday clones that even Batman could kill.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/...an010remza2.jpg
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/...an010remxz3.jpg
Here is Supes saying he couldn't vaporise them again.
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/...an010remby9.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/...an010remct0.jpg

Some people say Supes can't travel fast in earth atmosphere because would cause too much destruction.
Supes himself said he could move while supressing sonic booms.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3640/024qb9.jpg
Here he is moving really fast without any atmospheric chaos
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/...saskssupxy6.jpg

The reason why goku could take hits from Supes.
Master Roshi could pulverise the moon. (powerlevel 139)
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2259/ch04pg02kl9.gif
Now Piccol did the same thing. (powerlevel 322) (Kame made another moon just in case you where wondering how could 2 moons be destroyed)
http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/2569/dbz052az0.jpg
But Piccol blast didnt do anything to Radiz (powerlevel 1200)
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/...ap197i12iv2.jpg
Goku (powerlevel 8000) stop Nappa blast (powerlevel 5000).. just strug it off.
http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/373/dbz126wv9.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3928/dbz127ee3.jpg
Now anyone with a brain can see the ammount of damage someone like Nappa could cause... I let you figure out how much damage Goku could do when fighting frezia, with a powerlevel of over 11 million. Its hard to even think about how much energy Goku can produce at the end of dbz.
So can superman cause such damage? He can sure take that kind of damage but can he dish it out?
Superman is tough, durable and extremely smart.. but he could never hurt Goku (once powerup). Goku has proven he can take these hits as if they where nothing. If Supes can't dish it out hows he supose to beat Goku?

Some people say that these blast aren't enough to hurt Supes because the dont destroy the planet.
All the dragon ball fighters can concentrate their energy down to a single point
Here is Piccol and Goku doing this, in a attemp to beat radiz.
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/...hap203i6bv5.jpg
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...hap203i7ff1.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/...hap203i8em1.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/...hap203i9ah5.jpg
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/...ap203i10rm9.jpg
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...ap203i11yz5.jpg
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/...ap203i12wx6.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/...ap203i13ow7.jpg
Here is Vegeta concentrating his attack down to a small point
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6969/321109sp6.gif
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1623/321110zd6.gif
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5029/321111jg9.gif
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1544/321112vc4.gif
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/410/321113ix0.gif
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3721/321114hl1.gif
This is the only reason why the planet does not get destroyed. Wouldn't be very smart of them to destroy the planet that they are on.

Supes holds a mini Black hole
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff144/KMCSuperman/JLA07719.jpg

Superspeed is basically as good as Instant Transmission
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sspeedwg5.jpg

IMO Supes could just drain all of the oxygen from the Battle field and collapse goku's lungs

With all do respect, Goku has some good feats but I could pull out a ton of bad one, ex getting burned by lava.

Supes has been around so long, he has so many feats that put him above Goku, it's not even funny. A few low showings doesn't change that. IMO Goku could get speedblitzed before he can think. Supes is faster than thought

Originally posted by superkronick92
With all do respect, Goku has some good feats but I could pull out a ton of bad one, ex getting burned by lava.

Supes has been around so long, he has so many feats that put him above Goku, it's not even funny. A few low showings doesn't change that. IMO Goku could get speedblitzed before he can think. Supes is faster than thought What about the points I stole from some dude?

The Supes vs Wonder Woman was low showing, besides, one could argue that Wonder Woman could hang with some DBZ character. The showings that you did show werent from Superman comics. They were from a Wonder Woman One-Shot and Superman/Batman, I don't mean to seem ignorant but during crossovers such as those, they weaken Supes to make other characters look better, hence The doomsday clone feat. In DBZ though the people act like the attacks are powerful, they usually don't appear to do nearly enough damage to the environment as a "planet busting" attacks should. The series was inconsistent like that, Character get hurt when the rocks fly at them when someone is powering up.

Oh and a lot of those scans don't work

Meh. I still think Supes wins actually, but what about his points for the DBZ characters?

He raises some good points but DBZ is to inconsistent and Supes has to many options of ending the fight easily. Goku needs to consentrate to do any of his strong attacks, I doubt a bloodlusted Supes would just sit their and gasp at how "powerful" Goku is. Even if he did have time, I doubt the attacks could injure him terribly, Supes has taken a crapload more punishment then Goku can ever hope to dish out

Originally posted by superkronick92
He raises some good points but DBZ is to inconsistent and Supes has to many options of ending the fight easily. Goku needs to consentrate to do any of his strong attacks, I doubt a bloodlusted Supes would just sit their and gasp at how "powerful" Goku is. Even if he did have time, I doubt the attacks could injure him terribly, Supes has taken a crapload more punishment then Goku can ever hope to dish out The main reason why Supes even wins is cause of speedblitz, I agree, tho he did show Goku is more durable than most people thought.

I don't piccolo's blast was that powerful, I see it more as one of Cyclop's type of blast. That kind of energy at least

Well rereading the manga I've realized Gokou is a lot faster than I previously thought but He's still not shown the speed to keep up with what Superman could do specially if he's bloodlusted. As for Gotenks at ssj saying he took a nap after going around the world a few times, though there was like 9 lines, he never actually took a nap it was just him being cocky since as soon as it showed him land Piccolo comes up. So he went around the world like 9 times in 29 minutes. And Gohan was fast enough to fly at base levels from his house to school in like five minutes when it takes a jet five hours to do it. SSJ3 Gokou is faster than both but it's unknown by how much. There's also the durability factor that Gokou can't take punches from people that aren't as physically strong as him and his known strength pales into comparison to Superman so he wouldn't be able to take the punches. The speed and strength factor is to great with Superman in character but making him bloodlusted is to much since he wouldn't lower himself to Gokou's level.

Originally posted by superkronick92
With all do respect, Goku has some good feats but I could pull out a ton of bad one, ex getting burned by lava.

Supes has been around so long, he has so many feats that put him above Goku, it's not even funny. A few low showings doesn't change that. IMO Goku could get speedblitzed before he can think. Supes is faster than thought

Lava burn is only in anime as comic relief, before Supersaiyan, also, the snake lady give him a bath of lava, another filler and Goku feel nothing.

Goku is way faster than you all think, it has a history,he start at faster than bullet speed as a kid, he is capable to fight Superman and his reflexes are better than Sups, Goku use Ki to fly so that would explain that he fly low in compare, but Goku not have feats of flying since Namek, because he can port.

The after images is a feat of speed.
Speed to create images by vibrating and move in many places to confuse
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3647/110306iw5.gif

Goku

Before somebody say that Gotenks just go around nine times, he stated
in plural few dozens times, original manga translation.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7123/sara014wg8.th.jpg

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/8970/sara015uq3.th.jpg

Goku at the end of Dbz is :

Stronger : His physical attacks must keep up with his energy attacks seeing as how it takes Multiple Solar System based attacks to even affect his adversary. By the Cell Saga, multiple planetary destroying attacks are laughed at yet punches from Goku and other fighters affect their adversary.

Faster : Not necesarilly flying speed, eventough from Gotenks's demonstration it's pretty obvious that DBZ characters can fly multiple times the Speed of light . But when it comes to fighting speed, they don't even compare. From what Roshi and Krillin did early in DB in a second, to the speed characters fight later, there is really no comparison.

One thing that must be remembered here is that fighting speed =/= flying speed so nobody should bring arguments that just because Superman flew that fast means that he can fight that fast .

Durability : Goku can take multiple Planet Blasting / Solar System destroying attack up to no effect in his strongest form. He can also take a huge amount of punishment and still get up and fight on.

Not to mention the fact that Goku has a vide array of attacks and tehniques which would give him a huge advantage in this fight such as Instant Transmission, Kienzan, Kamehameha etc.

In This forum i find out that many understimated Goku and the Z, In the Beggining of DBZ the Saiyans can produce such amount of energy that can create an artificial moon, before Freeza Saga, this beings power is desintegration, a more powerful, they can desintegrate things more durable than planets, Freeza, Cell and Buu are beings more durable than a planets.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/8980/chap234i10vw9.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5320/chap234i11jk9.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2290/chap234i12xf7.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1097/chap234i13fe5.jpg


Vegeta creating a n artificial moon full of energy Saiyan Saga.

Originally posted by superkronick92
Supes holds a mini Black hole
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff144/KMCSuperman/JLA07719.jpg

Superspeed is basically as good as Instant Transmission
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sspeedwg5.jpg

IMO Supes could just drain all of the oxygen from the Battle field and collapse goku's lungs

Goku Train in the Room of spirit and time, low oxigen, extreme temperatures and high gravity, he can be long time without breathing, as he show in this scans, Saiyans are not humans.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9103/db26123ao4.gif
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7613/db26124nt6.gif

Please don't bother. At least skim through the Superman respect thread before you go on the defensive. It doesnt matter, we all know what Goku can do but the sad thing is the majority of people who argue for him winning know nothing about Superman. Why the hell is this here again only the dbz fanboys argue for him winning and with out fail it will turn to insults.

wait. they both think the other destroyed the earth....but they are fighting on it?

Debate the points presented by Violent2dope, any superman punch dont have the power to destroy the moon, only if he fly at superspeed trough it, like when luthor win the election. Roshi desintegrate the whole moon pulverize it, Goku is for logic more powerful than Roshi and Piccolo.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Goku focus his attacks to small points, to avoid destroying the planet they are fighting on, is explain many times, example when Piccolo charge his Makanko Sampo or light dead beam

Which is complete BS. It was stated that it was a drilling attack, not that it could destroy the moon or a planet. It only destroyed part of a mountain. Energy doesn't just disappear, it has to go somewhere.

Superman is stronger, faster (in both travel and reaction speed), more durable (Mageddon Warhead? Sun - Eaters? Tesseracts?), smarter, more experienced (he had over 1000 years of combat experience in Valhalla), more versatile, etc. And he has actual feats to back this up.

DBZ fans' arguments almost always rely on nothing but speculation and flawed calculations (using false premises, improper methods, and unfounded assumptions).

Even at the end of DBZ normal people can see them fight and see their ki blasts (they can only move fast enough to be invisible for short bursts, not for a whole fight). Also it takes them at least several minutes to fly from one part of the earth to another.

Superman can fly light - years in minutes, fight around the world in seconds, etc.

Gotenks had 29 minutes to fly around the world a few times, then he took a whole minute to reach Buu's house (Picollo said he had one minute remaining in the fusion, and it wore off when he got there). Even if we assume he was on the exact opposite end of the earth from Buu's house, that's still less than 1% of lightspeed.

BTW, Goku can only maintain SSJ3 for a few minutes before becoming exhausted and reverting to base form. Superman can fight for days or even weeks on end.

This kind of counter-arguments and a few more make me just wanna stop discussing this at all

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Which is complete BS. It was stated that it was a drilling attack, not that it could destroy the moon or a planet. It only destroyed part of a mountain. Energy doesn't just disappear, it has to go somewhere.

Superman is stronger, faster (in both travel and reaction speed), more durable (Mageddon Warhead? Sun - Eaters? Tesseracts?), smarter, more experienced (he had over 1000 years of combat experience in Valhalla), more versatile, etc. And he has actual feats to back this up.

DBZ fans' arguments almost always rely on nothing but speculation and flawed calculations (using false premises, improper methods, and unfounded assumptions).

Even at the end of DBZ normal people can see them fight and see their ki blasts (they can only move fast enough to be invisible for short bursts, not for a whole fight). Also it takes them at least several minutes to fly from one part of the earth to another.

Superman can fly light - years in minutes, fight around the world in seconds, etc.

Gotenks had 29 minutes to fly around the world a few times, then he took a whole minute to reach Buu's house (Picollo said he had one minute remaining in the fusion, and it wore off when he got there). Even if we assume he was on the exact opposite end of the earth from Buu's house, that's still less than 1% of lightspeed.

Which is complete BS. Supes has been hit/suprise but people who move slowly.. he can only fly fast in space because he has huge distances to build up speed.. his reaction time is no where near Gokus.

You greatest flaw is that us assume that fly/running speed is the same as fighting speed... is the fastest sprinter in the world going to be the best light weight UFC fighter? No.

Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. Bullets move faster then sound. Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s.
h ttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9641/05106ha6.gif
So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s (At this point Goku can not run at this speed only move over short distances at this speed) He ran 100m in 8.5 seconds.
h ttp://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6531/db03053fh5.gif

Superman fans' arguments almost always rely on nothing but speculation (they never seem to prove anything just post what they "THINK" happened)

There is no way too tell if it took the who 29 min for Gotents to fly around the world.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
BTW, Goku can only maintain SSJ3 for a few minutes before becoming exhausted and reverting to base form. Superman can fight for days or even weeks on end.
This was the same for this ssj self. But now he can hold it as long as he has ki.

Anyway supes couldn't hurt Goku.....

Master Roshi could pulverise the moon. (powerlevel 139)
h ttp://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2259/ch04pg02kl9.gif
Now Piccol did the same thing. (powerlevel 322) (Kame made another moon just in case you where wondering how could 2 moons be destroyed)
h ttp://img478.imageshack.us/img478/2569/dbz052az0.jpg
But Piccol blast didnt do anything to Radiz (powerlevel 1200)
h ttp://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3661/chap197i12iv2.jpg
Goku (powerlevel 8000) stop Nappa blast (powerlevel 5000).. just strug it off.
h ttp://img485.imageshack.us/img485/373/dbz126wv9.jpg
h ttp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3928/dbz127ee3.jpg
Now anyone with a brain can see the ammount of damage someone like Nappa could cause... I let you figure out how much damage Goku could do when fighting frezia, with a powerlevel of over 11 million. Its hard to even think about how much energy Goku can produce at the end of dbz.
So can superman cause such damage? He can sure take that kind of damage but can he dish it out?
Superman is tough, durable and extremely smart.. but he could never hurt Goku (once powerup). Goku has proven he can take these hits as if they where nothing. If Supes can't dish it out hows he supose to beat Goku?

The most ridiculous counter arguments up until now :

*Basing the strength of the blasts upon the fact that they make small craters and then saying that they hurt SSj3 Goku

*Disregarding what Roshi and Krillin did in a second based on the fact that it happened only once .

*Saying that Gotenks flew for 29 minutes

And more

I could point out easily what's wrong with these but any person with mid-knowledge about DB would already know.

Roshi destroying the moon
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5062/ch03pg09th1.gif
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8692/ch03pg10um6.gif
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6949/ch03pg11ju8.gif
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5964/ch03pg12kn0.gif
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7677/ch03pg13rb5.gif
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2956/ch04pg01bb7.gif
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8227/ch04pg02uu2.gif

I was referring to the Z fighters concentrate they power in small points, enough to defeat the enemy, and mostly the enemies wanted to defeat them. they are not reckless to attack without considering the destruction of the planet, Roshi and Piccolo did attack with reasons the moon, and they destroy it
Piccolo focusing his attack in one point
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4748/chap203i13ic5.jpg

He is stronger, Goku is more powerful, is also unknown how strong is Goku SSJ 3, so you can not be certain about Goku strength . And the DBZ blast cause more damage that any Superman punch considering Roshi disintegrate it the moon, from Freeza blast to Buu Blast, he survive it, that rule out that Superman punch will affect Goku.
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/881/db27078jg0.gif
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6359/db27079iv1.gif
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1096/db27080il8.gif

Superman fans always use comic relief moments to make their case, and use the beginning and the middle of DBZ to show Goku weaknesses, when because is a lineal history Goku is stronger after saiyan saga, Freeza Saga, Cell Saga, Buu Saga, End of manga going to train with Ubb.



Goku child was the one who disappear in front of humans for long periods of time, not like you are saying:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6393/110607bc1.gif
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8837/110608rv9.gif
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5695/110609yw1.gif
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2576/110610fn6.gif
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7927/110612qt5.gif

Supes makes eye contact=instant lobotomy

Originally posted by superkronick92
Supes makes eye contact=instant lobotomy

You have to find other way to think how Superman can beat Goku, we being trough this before

Piccolo - Goku, looking eye to eye, Goku avoided


http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2496/160403ug4ah4.gif
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7725/dragonballepisode144142pn1.jpg

Piccolo was right in front of him, he could see his eyes flashing, Supes eyes don't have to flash that much, he could probably do it from a distance.

Geez, I can't even read this thread with all the huge scans everywhere. Link your images, people.

(BTW I've read the entire manga multiple times so posting them is unnecessary anyway)

Superman can do everything at super speed. Just recently he searched every building and area in a 200 - mile radius in a matter of seconds. By comparison, Super Buu with Gohan absorbed (who was much stronger than Goku) took several minutes just to fly from one position on the earth to another.

As for Krillin and Roshi - So what? They did a few moves in a second. Like I said, DBZ characters can move faster than people can see for short bursts. None of that compares to Superman's speed at all.

Oh, and comparing Picollo's eye beams to Superman's heat vision because they look similar is just stupid. I guess since the model space shuttle in my room looks like a real space shuttle, it can achieve escape velocity, right?

Superman's heat vision can power engines strong enough to move a planet 16 times the size of earth, drill through white dwarf stars, envelop the entire earth from the sun, is hotter than scientists in the DCU can measure (when they can easily measure the core of the sun), can drill through Kryptonian battleships that fly through stars unharmed, etc.

Originally posted by Noob1
he can only fly fast in space because he has huge distances to build up speed..

This is why the thread continues. It's clear the people arguing against superman know nothing about him. And they don't read the thread either.

Originally posted by Noob1
You greatest flaw is that us assume that fly/running speed is the same as fighting speed... is the fastest sprinter in the world going to be the best light weight UFC fighter? No. Sham distinction fallacy.


And its clear that the people arguing against him don't even know logic either.

To me, Superspeed is a combo of Super-reflex and superspeed itself. When Supes is in Speed mode it appears to him that everyone is standing still. When he doesn't use reflexes, he is just running fast. IMO

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Geez, I can't even read this thread with all the huge scans everywhere. Link your images, people.

(BTW I've read the entire manga multiple times so posting them is unnecessary anyway)

Superman can do everything at super speed. Just recently he searched every building and area in a 200 - mile radius in a matter of seconds. By comparison, Super Buu with Gohan absorbed (who was much stronger than Goku) took several minutes just to fly from one position on the earth to another.

As for Krillin and Roshi - So what? They did a few moves in a second. Like I said, DBZ characters can move faster than people can see for short bursts. None of that compares to Superman's speed at all.

Oh, and comparing Picollo's eye beams to Superman's heat vision because they look similar is just stupid. I guess since the model space shuttle in my room looks like a real space shuttle, it can achieve escape velocity, right?

Superman's heat vision can power engines strong enough to move a planet 16 times the size of earth, drill through white dwarf stars, envelop the entire earth from the sun, is hotter than scientists in the DCU can measure (when they can easily measure the core of the sun), can drill through Kryptonian battleships that fly through stars unharmed, etc.
First off we can't measure the centre of the sun we have to calculate it.
second off you need to prove that it took several min and that he was trying to move his fastest...

Originally posted by superkronick92
Piccolo was right in front of him, he could see his eyes flashing, Supes eyes don't have to flash that much, he could probably do it from a distance.
His eyes didn't flash. The beams where just about to hit him then Goku moved.

Edit : As far as I see, Endless Mike wants too make Goku seem as fast as a normal human.. he claims to have read the Manga, yet he doesn't seem to know what happen in it... You need to back up your claims of Goku being slow instead of posting a comment and hoping that everyone will just agree without checking up on you.

Edit2: here is goku moving so fast he couldnt be seen by a crowed.. that throws out endless mike arguement..
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OH yea about supes hit vision.. we can calculate its heat just as we do the sun.. unless it vaporises everything in the universe... that didnt happen so I think Endless has got caught up in the "standard scientific" measuring of the heat vision tempature compared to a calculation which isn't standard.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
The most ridiculous counter arguments up until now :

*Basing the strength of the blasts upon the fact that they make small craters and then saying that they hurt SSj3 Goku

*Disregarding what Roshi and Krillin did in a second based on the fact that it happened only once .

*Saying that Gotenks flew for 29 minutes

And more

I could point out easily what's wrong with these but any person with mid-knowledge about DB would already know. I never said that I base the strength of the blasts on the ones that make small craters. I said that the ones that do only make small craters still hurt them. Nobody has ever survived a supposedly planet destroying blast except Cell and that was because he can regen. All the other blasts that were said to be that powerful were blocked by another blasts. And Gokou is hurt by blasts that aren't planet destroying.

Krillen vs Roshi as opposed to the other hundreds of times people actually see them fighting and people see the whole rest of the battle...Yea lets take a one time thing and make it the bases for everything.

Well lets see...Piccolo says Gotenks has a minute left..Gotenks is shown to fly around the world before he lands and Piccolo shows up. Fusion only lasts 30 minutes. Yea saying it took him 29 minutes to fly around the world even 24 times or maybe even 48 would still make him slower than light. And don't bring up him saying he napped because one he is a big bragger and two it never shows him nap before Piccolo appears. And it still takes him a minute to fly from Piccolo to Buu's house.

Originally posted by Kento
I never said that I base the strength of the blasts on the ones that make small craters. I said that the ones that do only make small craters still hurt them. Nobody has ever survived a supposedly planet destroying blast except Cell and that was because he can regen. All the other blasts that were said to be that powerful were blocked by another blasts. And Gokou is hurt by blasts that aren't planet destroying.

Krillen vs Roshi as opposed to the other hundreds of times people actually see them fighting and people see the whole rest of the battle...Yea lets take a one time thing and make it the bases for everything.

Well lets see...Piccolo says Gotenks has a minute left..Gotenks is shown to fly around the world before he lands and Piccolo shows up. Fusion only lasts 30 minutes. Yea saying it took him 29 minutes to fly around the world even 24 times or maybe even 48 would still make him slower than light. And don't bring up him saying he napped because one he is a big bragger and two it never shows him nap before Piccolo appears. And it still takes him a minute to fly from Piccolo to Buu's house.

So you say he never took the nap because we never saw it.. Ok no one killed krilling in dragon ball because we never saw it.... thats a bs arguement.. and you expect piccol to be able to tell 30 min exactly?

Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. Bullets move faster then sound. Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s.
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So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s (At this point Goku has showen that he can not run at this speed only move over short distances at this speed) As showen when he ran 100m in 8.5 seconds.
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This is when he met Krillin. At the first tournament Krillin could follow Goku. At the second Krillin couldn't see him move so he had to be at lease 60x faster. (acutally Goku was jumping back and forward so fast that he went invisable so he would be much more then 60x faster)
Now tein was at one of those one and he could follow Goku movements. At the next tournament Goku move so fast that tein couldn't see him. So again he must be around 60x faster. 340x60x60 = 1224000m/s which is around 0.4% of the speed of light.
Now Goku had a powerlevel of 416. When he got back from training he had a powerlevel of 8000. So hes 19.23x faster. (acutally hes 90x faster because he cross snakeway 90 times faster then he orignally did - took 6 months one way 2 days the other (30*6)/2=90)
Next he gets to 180000. making him 36x faster on that. (Where he could be much quicker) So Goku when he gets to namic is ((1224000*19.23*36=847350720)/299792458 = 2.83) 2.83x the speed of light (absolute minimum) This lines up perfectly with burter who claim he was faster then light. (Where he has to be much faster then 2.83x the speed of light for burter not to see him, but as you can see all the numbers have been pulled down to their absolute lowest values that can not be disputed)
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I would like to point out that he could easily do 20x Kaioken when he got to namic, and even higher so if he has too. So if Goku could turn ssj1 when he got to namic he would be over 100x faster then light. You can just imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting cell or even buu at ssj3.
Edit: rember he has showen he can only move at the speed over short distances...

supes = obliterated.

Here comes again a huge scan
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To prove that you are wrong, and there is more examples, but you know it, you read the manga.

Dragonball minors characters, who are millions of times inferior to Goku disintegrate.
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Originally posted by Noob1
So you say he never took the nap because we never saw it.. Ok no one killed krilling in dragon ball because we never saw it.... thats a bs arguement.. and you expect piccol to be able to tell 30 min exactly?

Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. Bullets move faster then sound. Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s.
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So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s (At this point Goku has showen that he can not run at this speed only move over short distances at this speed) As showen when he ran 100m in 8.5 seconds.
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This is when he met Krillin. At the first tournament Krillin could follow Goku. At the second Krillin couldn't see him move so he had to be at lease 60x faster. (acutally Goku was jumping back and forward so fast that he went invisable so he would be much more then 60x faster)
Now tein was at one of those one and he could follow Goku movements. At the next tournament Goku move so fast that tein couldn't see him. So again he must be around 60x faster. 340x60x60 = 1224000m/s which is around 0.4% of the speed of light.
Now Goku had a powerlevel of 416. When he got back from training he had a powerlevel of 8000. So hes 19.23x faster. (acutally hes 90x faster because he cross snakeway 90 times faster then he orignally did - took 6 months one way 2 days the other (30*6)/2=90)
Next he gets to 180000. making him 36x faster on that. (Where he could be much quicker) So Goku when he gets to namic is ((1224000*19.23*36=847350720)/299792458 = 2.83) 2.83x the speed of light (absolute minimum) This lines up perfectly with burter who claim he was faster then light. (Where he has to be much faster then 2.83x the speed of light for burter not to see him, but as you can see all the numbers have been pulled down to their absolute lowest values that can not be disputed)
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I would like to point out that he could easily do 20x Kaioken when he got to namic, and even higher so if he has too. So if Goku could turn ssj1 when he got to namic he would be over 100x faster then light. You can just imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting cell or even buu at ssj3.
Edit: rember he has showen he can only move at the speed over short distances...

What the heck? Krillen was killed. The Dragon wished him back. Other say it. Krillen doesn't brag. Gotenks was full of himself and liked to make Piccolo's life miserable. As soon as it shows Gotenks land Piccolo appears, heck if he's also going to go around dozens of times then why the heck is only ten lines drawn around the Earth also? And so now you're going to take the word of somebody who is cocky and likes to make everything he does sound better than Piccolo who doesn't? Yea I'd believe Piccolo and even Gokou the two who don't brag and make themselves look better than . Gotenks is one of my favorite characters but he's worse than Vegeta when it comes to bragging about himself.

And none of those measurements of speed can be even proven. Suddenly he's sixty times faster just because somebody can't see him? Sure he's faster than sound but he's never been faster than light. Nothing has shown them be that fast at all. Even Gohan from the Buu Saga has proven he isn't faster than light in his base form and he is a lot more powerful and stronger than Gokou from Freeza Saga.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
And that you like exaggerate his feats, like Superman and Darkseid Rock a solar system, when in one of their fights, they destroy a little asteroid.


Logically, Superman force field can be broken by powerful forces when the atacks are direct, Goku blast and power up punch can do that. Hell, check what Roshi did to the moon again. When was that feat ever exaggerated? There was a scan of a fight being said it rocked the universe but it wasn't that fight. I could also bring up that Superman said he can knock the world off it's orbit or that Batman said he can spin a mountain on his finger. But I don't because he's never done it. Same with the supposedly Solar System destroying blasts that not even Buu could do yet Cell thinks he has the power and Buu > Cell.

And Z warriors punches can't do anything close to what their blasts can do and they are still hurt by them. They don't have great durability when it comes to brute force.

Originally posted by Kento
When was that feat ever exaggerated? There was a scan of a fight being said it rocked the universe but it wasn't that fight. I could also bring up that Superman said he can knock the world off it's orbit or that Batman said he can spin a mountain on his finger. But I don't because he's never done it. Same with the supposedly Solar System destroying blasts that not even Buu could do yet Cell thinks he has the power and Buu > Cell.

And Z warriors punches can't do anything close to what their blasts can do and they are still hurt by them. They don't have great durability when it comes to brute force.

Superman saved the omniverse

Originally posted by Noob1
First off we can't measure the centre of the sun we have to calculate it.
second off you need to prove that it took several min and that he was trying to move his fastest...

We can't, but DCU scientists can (they have more advanced tech).

And he was moving his fastest because he was trying to kill Goku, he was really mad at him. "He must have teleported. I can sense him. No matter where he runs, I'll find him and kill him!" or something like that.

Goku. Does Goku have his SS, SS2, SS3 OR SS4 abilities?

Originally posted by DARKLORDCAEDUS
Goku. Does Goku have his SS, SS2, SS3 OR SS4 abilities?

None of them would help in the least.

Originally posted by Soljer
None of them would help in the least.

Are you sure?

Sorry I didn't specify, this is Goku from the end of DBZ.

Originally posted by DARKLORDCAEDUS
Are you sure?

Nothing can save Goku from the speedblitz. He would likely be dead before he has the chance to transform, even if he did, Supes is far to durable, strong, fast and versatile for Goku to really kill

Originally posted by Kento
I think you're talking about two different fights though. The one that destroyed a planetoid and that fight talked about are different I believe. Though that one didn't exactly rock the solar system either that's why it's call hyperbole.

You want to say Superman's punches don't have the same kinda power as a blast. Well Cell and Gohan's Kamehameha battle with all Cell's power being put into it and half of Gohan's made shockwaves large enough to be felt who knows how far away since it only really shows one town shaking I believe and I think it was probably the one they were however far North or whatever Cell said from. A weaker Superman fighting Doomsday who was going all out was able to just punch and create shockwaves that were felt all the way to Gotham. Metropolis is suppose to be around Toronto or someplace like that I can't remember if it was Toronto or something else while Gotham is suppose to be around New Jersey. He's gotten a whole lot stronger since then.

Yea Cell nor Freeza are going to be able to hurt SSJ3 Gokou by punching them. But if Cell used a blast that could truly blow up a solar system he could. When Buu destroyed Earth no other part of the solar system was harmed yet Gokou couldn't stop the blast at all and had to run away to survive.
The Z fighters are not as durable as Superman.. So it would be like hitting a steal wall and a pillow.. Plus they are floating on ki... which is how they fly. So what happens to someone when you push them when they are floating on water?
Radiz could withstand a low power attack that could destroy the moon.. He could stop Goku Kamehameha with 1 hand.. Is he not more durable then a planet? why? So why would Cell Kamehameha effect goku who has train for 10 years + ssj2 and ssj3 transformations....

People weaker and slower then Goku have showen to be able to do normal things at super speed.
That throws out the claim that they can't be fast while talking. (someone said cell had enough time to say something before Goku release his warp kamehameha wave on him)
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Some people say that Goku takes hours to fly accross planets.
These people never post a scan of this. Goku is now far stronger/faster then the ginu force. This is before he reach the first SuperSaiyan level.
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Some people say supes is faster
Supes has never been able to instantly get to top speed like the Z fighter do. Even at his top speed his effect on the enviroment isnt much diffrent from denda (who is one of the weakest namics)
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Some people say Goku could not stand up to the power of a nuke.
This explosion from Piccol is far more powerful then then a nuke (the entire city was either blown away or vaporised) - This was way back in Dragon ball (not part of z).
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Some people say Goku needs alot of time to transform or powerup a energy attack
Here is Goku transforming to SSJ3 before Superbuu can attack(He can always powerup even more if he has too)
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Here is Goku doing a Kamehameha to counter a attack from Napa, who was right in his face when releasing his attack.
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Goku has can also powerup while fighting he does not have to sit still.
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Supers looses heaps of power when he is hit by powerful attacks
Wonderwoman attacks is a weak compared to Goku and Supes. She manage to weaken Supes enought so he could rescue his friends quickly. Can you imagine Goku hits. He could output solor system attack that would do a tremedies amout of damage.
These are the pics that I saw Wonderwoman weakening Supes.
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Supes heat vision has never showen to be as powerful as Goku's energy attacks.
He could barly vaporise a bunch of weak doomsday clones that even Batman could kill.
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Here is Supes saying he couldn't vaporise them again.
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Some people say Supes can't travel fast in earth atmosphere because would cause too much destruction.
Supes himself said he could move while supressing sonic booms.
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Here he is moving really fast without any atmospheric chaos
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The reason why Goku could take hits from Supes.
Master Master Roshi could pulverise the moon. (powerlevel 139)
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Now Piccol did the same thing. (powerlevel 322) (Kame made another moon just in case you where wondering how could 2 moons be destroyed) h ttp://img478.imageshack.us/img478/2569/dbz052az0.jpg
But Piccol blast didnt do anything to Radiz (powerlevel 1200)
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Goku (powerlevel 8000) stopped Nappa blast (powerlevel 5000).. just strug it off.
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Now anyone with a brain can see the ammount of damage someone like Nappa could cause... I let you figure out how much damage Goku could do when fighting frezia, with a powerlevel of over 11 million. Its hard to even think about how much energy Goku can produce at the end of dbz.
So can superman cause such damage? He can sure take that kind of damage but can he dish it out?
Superman is tough, durable and extremely smart.. but he would never be able to harm Goku (once powerup). Goku has proven he can take these hits as if they where nothing. If Supes can't dish it out hows he supose to beat Goku?
Some people say that these blast aren't enough to hurt Supes because the don't destroy the planet.
All the dragon ball fighters can concentrate their energy down to a single point.
Here is Piccol and Goku doing this, in a attemp to beat radiz.
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Here is Vegeta concentrating his attack down to a small point
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This is the only reason why the planet does not get destroyed. Wouldn't be very smart of them to destroy the planet that they are on.
Goku Kamehameha his much stronger then Master Roshi Moon pulverising Kamehameha, he can concentrate all the energy down on Supes head eg.
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Here Is Gohan killing the cell jr who are stronger then Vegeta. (at that time) The same Vegeta that is millions of times stronger then Goku at the begining of dbz. The same Goku (at the begining of dbz) who could shake off Master Roshi Moon pulverising Kamehameha with ease.
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This proves that Gohan is capable of concentrating his energy in every blow.
Some people say Goku is slow.
Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. Bullets move faster then sound. Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s.
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So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s (At this point Goku has showen that he can not run at this speed only move over short distances at this speed) As showen when he ran 100m in 8.5 seconds.
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This is when he met Krillin. At the first tournament Krillin could follow Goku. At the second Krillin couldn't see him move so he had to be at lease 60x faster. (acutally Goku was jumping back and forward so fast that he went invisable so he would be much more then 60x faster)
Now tein was at one of those one and he could follow Goku movements. At the next tournament Goku move so fast that tein couldn't see him. So again he must be around 60x faster. 340x60x60 = 1224000m/s which is around 0.4% of the speed of light.
Now Goku had a powerlevel of 416. When he got back from training he had a powerlevel of 8000. So hes 19.23x faster. (acutally hes 90x faster because he cross snakeway 90 times faster then he orignally did - took 6 months one way 2 days the other (30*6)/2=90)
Next he gets to 180000. making him 36x faster on that. (Where he could be much quicker) So Goku when he gets to namic is ((1224000*19.23*36=847350720)/299792458 = 2.83) 2.83x the speed of light (absolute minimum) This lines up perfectly with burter who claim he was faster then light. (Where he has to be much faster then 2.83x the speed of light for burter not to see him, but as you can see all the numbers have been pulled down to their absolute lowest values that can not be disputed)
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I would like to point out that he could easily do 20x Kaioken when he got to namic, and even higher so if he has too. So if Goku could turn ssj1 when he got to namic he would be over 100x faster then light. You can just imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting cell or even buu at ssj3.

Originally posted by gokuvssuperman

Some people say Goku is slow.
Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. Bullets move faster then sound. Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s.
h ttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9641/05106ha6.gif
So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s (At this point Goku has showen that he can not run at this speed only move over short distances at this speed) As showen when he ran 100m in 8.5 seconds.
h ttp://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6531/db03053fh5.gif
This is when he met Krillin. At the first tournament Krillin could follow Goku. At the second Krillin couldn't see him move so he had to be at lease 60x faster. (acutally Goku was jumping back and forward so fast that he went invisable so he would be much more then 60x faster)
Now tein was at one of those one and he could follow Goku movements. At the next tournament Goku move so fast that tein couldn't see him. So again he must be around 60x faster. 340x60x60 = 1224000m/s which is around 0.4% of the speed of light.
Now Goku had a powerlevel of 416. When he got back from training he had a powerlevel of 8000. So hes 19.23x faster. (acutally hes 90x faster because he cross snakeway 90 times faster then he orignally did - took 6 months one way 2 days the other (30*6)/2=90)
Next he gets to 180000. making him 36x faster on that. (Where he could be much quicker) So Goku when he gets to namic is ((1224000*19.23*36=847350720)/299792458 = 2.83) 2.83x the speed of light (absolute minimum) This lines up perfectly with burter who claim he was faster then light. (Where he has to be much faster then 2.83x the speed of light for burter not to see him, but as you can see all the numbers have been pulled down to their absolute lowest values that can not be disputed)
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I would like to point out that he could easily do 20x Kaioken when he got to namic, and even higher so if he has too. So if Goku could turn ssj1 when he got to namic he would be over 100x faster then light. You can just imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting cell or even buu at ssj3. You were already banned before Gplex, Socking is a bannable offense

I knew you DBZ trolls were using IP maskers to sock! HA!

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9536729#post9536729

I noticed the same "I'm posting from a FAQ" style to your posts, and the same way you place a break in between the h and the ttp in urls.

WHITEBEARD is phenomenol!. I already know that you're recruits that troll is pulling in from another board, probably Nartuoforums.

Creating accounts to get around bans is a violation of the rules!

You need to know the distance, and the time, is just a plot.
Both Superman and Goku have plots holes, Doomsday and Superman fighting in the city in front of everybody is an example, Goku is no inferior to Superman in Fighting speed, in fact, Goku have more impressive fighting speed scenes, that when is show in anime, we as viewers can see that Goku is fast enough to fight Superman comics. http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9730/08222005124311pm3unqm9.th.jpg
Superman vs Imperiex probe
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4697/2486sc8yb8.th.gif
Goku vs Butha and Jeeze

Originally posted by Vvendeta
You're downloading the scans from the respect thread (the only place you've ever read any superman) and reuploading them...

Cute. In fact you're only taking from the first of the respect thread.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
You need to know the distance, and the time, is just a plot.
Both Superman and Goku have plots holes, Doomsday and Superman fighting in the city in front of everybody is an example, Goku is no inferior to Superman in Fighting speed, in fact, Goku have more impressive fighting speed scenes, that when is show in anime, we as viewers can see that Goku is fast enough to fight Superman comics. http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9730/08222005124311pm3unqm9.th.jpg
Superman vs Imperiex probe
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4697/2486sc8yb8.th.gif
Goku vs Butha and Jeeze You haven't read anything current have you?

No you haven't .. probably found a solicit for the superman comic


Like I can tell you the plot for comics not released. and then I can claim I've read them. Like How the Skrull gangsters are going to fight the panthers in an alternate Earth in Black panther 34... So obviously I read black panther...


Problem is the comic I just told you the plot of won't be released until January.


You've never read a superman comic in your life. sly

You are not debating, debate the points i make, prove me wrong, show me that one Superman Punch has the Force of Roshi maximum Kamehame ha, then you will find out if i know enough about Superman. the time he flew whne luthor wins the election, Superman use superspeed and pass throught the little moon. donĀ“t compare

The issue when superman is bitten is called "four hoursemen".

Originally posted by Vvendeta
You are not debating, debate the points i make, prove me wrong, So you can ignore the fact that you've been proven wrong... again?

Originally posted by Vvendeta
show me that one Superman Punch has the Force of Roshi maximum Kamehame ha, then you will find out if i know enough about Superman. Naw, otherwise it wouldn't be needed. You'll just ignore it like always... instead of debating who would win, you're debating who you'd want to win.

Unlike you I read both the DBZ manga, as well as Superman. So I actually know what the hell I'm talking about. You however were asked to come debate for goku by someone. And neither of you reads superman. but you desperatly want Goku to win.

You ignore logic to make sure the one you want to win, wins, even though logically he doesn't.

Why? Concrete evidece.
Why not? Speculation is inadmissible as proof.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
The issue when superman is bitten is called "four hoursemen".

And black panther 34 is called "Gangsta lean" Guess I read the issue that hasn't been released yet, huh? I know the title and I know the plot. Next you're going to tell me more information that can be found in a solicit aren't you?

Your desperation is evident in the fact that you still throw out information that can easily be found in a solicit. sly

Save your breath, you've been found out, you don't read Superman.

Are you basing your entire superman knowledge off message board hearsay? It was was Pestilence of the four horseman of the apocalyse who bit Superman. Not a zombie.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Are you basing your entire superman knowledge off message board hearsay? It was was Pestilence of the four horseman of the apocalyse who bit Superman. Not a zombie. yes As I said, he doesn't read Superman.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Are you basing your entire superman knowledge off message board hearsay? It was was Pestilence of the four horseman of the apocalyse who bit Superman. Not a zombie.

I said i know enough for debate this Subject, My knowledge is greater in DB and DBZ, Manga and Scans, for that i know That Goku is a match for superman.

Like for example Goku kid has been hanging around with characters that have Superman basic feats since he is a Kid

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5088/vol07ch1205wk1.jpg

Originally posted by Vvendeta
I said i know enough for debate this Subject, My knowledge is greater in DB and DBZ, Manga and Scans, for that i know That Goku is a match for superman. Tht's the problem, you DON'T know enough about him.

You're basing all your information about him on what you read on message boards.

Fact is he's taken more energy damage than Goku has shown to be able to put out. More physical ddamage than Goku's been able to put out and has moved faster than Goku has been shown to be able to move. He doesn't rely on Ki so can't be sensed when Superman does vibrate himself invisible.

He's physically stronger, he still has an impressive energy output, Scientists can measure the heat of stars, they can't measure the heat of his heat vision. The physics of his world might not allow for a core breach self destruct the same way it works in DBZ... but that's due to the way the planets work in the respective realities.

Phenomenol once tried to argue that Ki was light. so if you want to argue speculation yellow light is given off from the sun so for all we know Ki blasts might power super man up. Do I have anything concrete to base this off of other than pure speculation? Not really. But alot of what is being stated about goku is also just that: Pure speculation. Nothing concrete. We have no verification of how much if at all stronger Goku got from the end of the Buu fight to the End of Z... pure speculation. we have nothing concrete to show what his rate of increase is after they stop announcing the power levels every so often.

Also non-canon evidence is also not admissible. Only feats and events from the manga since that's original source. So you have nothing to really validate your claims.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Like for example Goku kid has been hanging around with characters that have Superman basic feats since he is a Kid

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5088/vol07ch1205wk1.jpg "Superman basic feats"

You can't call them that if you don't know what they are... Yeah he's bullet proof, so what? he's also shown a high resistence to energy based damage, like when he took the suneater in back '91. Or even when he took the mageddon warhead which is greater than anything concrete we've seen in the manga.

Posts like this are completely meaningless. So all you're really doing is spamming the thread with scans that prove nothing.

Superman's been bulletproof since he was an infant too... so what?

Thanks for confiming you know nothing about Superman. I know an ample amount about both sides, which is why I'm debating.

I have no idea why the members of what is now a dying fandom keep feeling the need for Goku to be the most powerful fictional character ever. He's not even in the the top 10 most powerful anime characters. I doubt he's in the top 50.



Fine I'll argue:

1) Prove Goku has even half of Superman's stength. Has goku shattered moons, punched someone across the solar system or alterred reality with his strength? Hitting people who throw big blasts at each is not an argument for this. There's ample evidence that their Ki resistance is far above their physical resitance.

2. Prove that Goku can exceed Superman's invunerablity without using low showings from the byrne era. What's the biggest blast Goku's made? Superman's taken multiple super novas.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/7653/161001ra2.gif
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5296/161006dl1.gif
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/581/161007vp8.gif
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5053/161008rd3.gif
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8809/161009ee6.gif
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/6702/161010ki0.gif
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/8250/161011ly6.gif
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1700/161012qq4.gif
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9464/161013cw8.gif
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3497/161014ms2.gif

Stop spamming the thread.

Is not spawming, i am proving my point. you are spawming because donĀ“t debate and donĀ“t make any point.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Is not spawming, i am proving my point. you are spawming because donĀ“t debate and donĀ“t make any point. Posting irrelevant pictures is spamming.

Is rrelevant to the thread, prove the resistance and durability of Goku from a punch of Superman, report me if you want.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Is rrelevant to the thread, prove the resistance and durability of Goku from a punch of Superman, report me if you want. So Nuke>Moon ?

or are you going to use it to mention more speculation?

I'd think a much later feat of him taking an energy blast would prove better than.


"That was goku then, he's gotten better since then" bullshit arguments of speculation.

This is what we mean by you don't know enough, you think these low level feats prove something. They don't. I could post a picture of pre-crises superman screwing up a math equation... but to what end? it doesn't prove anything.

Simples punches of Superman are less than disintegration.

I post goku resisting Freza too.

Dragonball is lineal history. Superman is not, is many Earths, many version of superman and diferent writers. you show no intelligence, ill respond to better debaters like Kento.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Simples punches of Superman are less than disintegration.

I post goku resisting Freza too.

Dragonball is lineal history. Superman is not, is many Earths, many version of superman and diferent writers. you show no intelligence, ill respond to better debaters like Kento. You say I show no intelligence when you're the one debating a subject you don't know enough about.

Physical punches are not the same as energy based attacks. THIS is what I meant. there's no point in debating with trolls like you. you ignore the given arguments. and now with your inability to debaste with me you attempt to brush me of and say I have no intelligence.


You're reported for trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You say I show no intelligence when you're the one debating a subject you don't know enough about.

Physical punches are not the same as energy based attacks. THIS is what I meant. there's no point in debating with trolls like you. you ignore the given arguments. and now with your inability to debaste with me you attempt to brush me of and say I have no intelligence.


You're reported for trolling. He's not that bad. At least he doesn't use the anime and GT to try and prove anything. It's just his thinking about punches and blasts being compared that is the problem and not linking the pictures. At least he's a lot better than Phenomonol was.

I tough this debate will be alturade, this Creshock has tactic is make every body that disagree with him a troll.

You can't debate some thing when you don't know any thing about the opposing side, it just doesn't make sense so why are you doing it? You clearly don't read Superman and know nothing about him except maybe what you read on a forum.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
I tough this debate will be alturade, this Creshock has tactic is make every body that disagree with him a troll. No, the difference when you flaunt your ignorance like you're doing that is called trolling.I'td be like me not reading andy Dragonball and then arguing Spiderman or Wolverine could beat goku and me posting "high" level feats of spiderman or wolverine.

And then saying that the feats you display aren't as impressive as Wolverine or Spiderman's feats.

I have scans of wolverine moving faster than the human eye can detect and spiderman dodging machine guin fire at point blank range. Should I post those and claim them to be better than what Goku can do?

And then when I'm clearly wrong should I continue to post them and ignore the fact that I'm wrong?

We both know what bunk that is... but that's exactly what you're doing. You're posting these feats of Goku and claiming they prove he's able to fight Superman.

It's EXACTLY what you're doing. and that is called trolling.

Post, make look in ridiculous, post Wolverine disintegrating a City, post spiderman recibing bullets in his chest, if you have those scan, they you will make me look like a moron and i will walk away front this thread and this forum.

Originally posted by Magee
You can't debate some thing when you don't know any thing about the opposing side, it just doesn't make sense so why are you doing it? You clearly don't read Superman and know nothing about him except maybe what you read on a forum.

I tell you what, this is not my first forum, and i have being debating Superman vs Goku before, i have seing most of the pictures Supeman fans use in this debate, and i read also some comic, not like you, because you are fans of Sups. but enough to debate the subject.

I'm gonna put my own spin on this figth.

I'd like the Goku fans to explain to me how would he stop Doomsday?

How would Goku defeat a being that evolves into a more powerful opponent fight after fight?

Just because energy projection is planetary level does not mean that strength and speed must be as well.

Same for energy durability versus physical durability. Physically speaking, Superman is millions of times stronger and more durable than the DBZ-verse, while the stronger characters in the DBZ verse may actually be comparable to Superman as far as energy projection and energy durability is concerned.

People seem to fail to understand that one durability is not analogous to another.

"They make blasts that can destroy planets, yet can put each other down with their fists, therefore their fists must be able to destroy planets" is a PRIME example of this faulty reasoning.

We have examples of Goku's strength. He can lift fewer than ten tons in base form. Fourty in Super Saiya-jin. And this is millions of times fewer tons than Superman can lift one handed.

This, vastly inferior strength, is also indicative of the DBZ-verse's vastly inferior physical durability - this (comparatively) poor strength can affect a character in a drastic way.

We also have evidence of their speed. From the beginning of Dragonball to the end of Dragonball Z, fighters can both be seen during fights, and can move fast enough to best the refresh rate of the human eye during fights. That never changes. The best example we have of sheer speed in the entire series, though, is Gotenks circling the earth several times in fewer than thirty minutes. Impressive, but not nearly up to par with Superman.

Energy projection and durability between the top-tier-DBZers and Superman are probably comparable. Physical strength, durability, and speed are VASTLY in Superman's favor.

It isn't hard to see how a single punch from Superman would lay out any of the DBZ-crew. And it isn't hard to see how Superman would, very easily, land that punch considering his vast speed advantage.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm gonna put my own spin on this figth.

I'd like the Goku fans to explain to me how would he stop Doomsday?


He couldn't

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Post, make look in ridiculous, post Wolverine disintegrating a City, post spiderman recibing bullets in his chest, if you have those scan, they you will make me look like a moron and i will walk away front this thread and this forum. I don't think you got the parrelell...

The scans of wolverine and spiderman are NOT more impressive than goku. and that's the point. I simply say they are and then ignore logic and reason just like you're doing with goku and superman.

You're posting scans of Goku that are NOT more impressive than superman. You simply say they are then ignore logic and reason.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
i read also some comic, No you don't. We already proved you don't. So quit saying that you do when you've been caught.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm gonna put my own spin on this figth.

I'd like the Goku fans to explain to me how would he stop Doomsday?

How would Goku defeat a being that evolves into a more powerful opponent fight after fight? *insert some bull about cell then pigeonhole the argument to being nothing more than ridiculous claims that a planet destroying attack would be too much for doomsday throw in the rolleyes smiliy for good measure.

Make sure that words are inappropraitely and randomly all capsed*

They think that a planet busting attack would take out a dude who can grow larger than the universe...

Oh that's another thing phen did with his sock... started off the pyron vs Goku fight with "The guy who gets beaten by capcom guys? Rolleyes/cool depending on account."

Originally posted by Creshosk
*insert some bull about cell then pigeonhole the argument to being nothing more than ridiculous claims that a planet destroying attack would be too much for doomsday throw in the rolleyes smiliy for good measure.

Make sure that words are inappropraitely and randomly all capsed*

They think that a planet busting attack would take out a dude who can grow larger than the universe...

Oh that's another thing phen did with his sock... started off the pyron vs Goku fight with "The guy who gets beaten by capcom guys? Rolleyes/cool depending on account." Okay, V is nowhere near as bad as Phenom, he actually tries to prove his case, and doesn't say characters bigger than stars would be felled by one planet destroying blast. Also, if you think he is wrong(Which I do too), PROVE it. If anyone has been trolling, it has been YOU, not him. Also, I would like to add Goku in base form can lift more than eight tons, he was easily lifting 2 tons on each limb. Also, he can improve the power of his punches with energy. And how is energy resistance and physical resistance different, I'm confused on that subject.

Someone update me on what is going on here.

Anyway, my interpretation of the matter is that Superman has a clear advantage, even if we ignore his superior strength, speed, and durability. That's because Goku needs oxygen to breathe and Superman doesn't. All Supes has to do is fly into space and Goku can't touch him. Sure, he could fire a few blasts at him, but with so much room to maneuver and so much distance between them, also the fact that Superman doesn't have DBZ ki so actually detecting him when he's in space would be practically impossible, the chances he'll get hit are virtually nil. Meanwhile he can sundip, punch the earth to pieces, or use his heat vision and burn the atmosphere off the planet.

The standard response would of couse be "Goku ITs to another planet", but (assuming he can locate a ki signature and lock onto it before his lungs fill with million - degree plasma) he would lose anyway via forfeit (running away).

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Someone update me on what is going on here.

Anyway, my interpretation of the matter is that Superman has a clear advantage, even if we ignore his superior strength, speed, and durability. That's because Goku needs oxygen to breathe and Superman doesn't. All Supes has to do is fly into space and Goku can't touch him. Sure, he could fire a few blasts at him, but with so much room to maneuver and so much distance between them, also the fact that Superman doesn't have DBZ ki so actually detecting him when he's in space would be practically impossible, the chances he'll get hit are virtually nil. Meanwhile he can sundip, punch the earth to pieces, or use his heat vision and burn the atmosphere off the planet.

The standard response would of couse be "Goku ITs to another planet", but (assuming he can locate a ki signature and lock onto it before his lungs fill with million - degree plasma) he would lose anyway via forfeit (running away).

Even if Goku IT's I could argue superman is as fast as it.
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sspeedwg5.jpg

He's talking to them from the watchtower, then he's in front of them, instantly

Asbestos versus wood. Asbestos has an amazing ability to withstand heat (thermal energy) but slash it with a knife( a physical attack and the and it will be cut. On the other hand wood will only be scratched by the knife, but if heated it'll become ash.

The game city of heroes has this. Where there multiple types of damage and corresponding resistances.



Yes he struggled to lift 40 tons. Which isn't even a trillionth of Superman strength. Even if he gets the dubious powerup of 50 times with each transformation he'll never reach Superman.

Enough with the "Cell could destroy the Solar System" crap.

Do you honestly think this:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3444/cellsolarsystembluff6qx1.gif

Was a solar - system destroying attack?

Clinging religiously to dialogue when it clearly contradicted by the actual events of the manga is a clear sign of fanboyism.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Enough with the "Cell could destroy the Solar System" crap.

Do you honestly think this:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3444/cellsolarsystembluff6qx1.gif

Was a solar - system destroying attack?

Clinging religiously to dialogue when it clearly contradicted by the actual events of the manga is a clear sign of fanboyism. I have sumthin to say about that. He NEVER said his attack will destroy the solar system, only that he enough ki in his hands that would be sufficient to destroy the solar system. The kamehameha is a beam which can be compressed into a smaller, more intense, beam. They have Ki control. Either that or Cell was indeed bluffing.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Asbestos versus wood. Asbestos has an amazing ability to withstand heat (thermal energy) but slash it with a knife( a physical attack and the and it will be cut. On the other hand wood will only be scratched by the knife, but if heated it'll become ash.

The game city of heroes has this. Where there multiple types of damage and corresponding resistances.



Yes he struggled to lift 40 tons. Which isn't even a trillionth of Superman strength. Even if he gets the dubious powerup of 50 times with each transformation he'll never reach Superman. 1. Ki attacks basically ARE physical attacks. They are basically beams of energy that are condensed to sear thru enemies, it is still a physical attack. I get your point, but I don't think it applies here, and DBZ characters supercharge their attacks with Ki.

2. He couldn't in base, in SSJ he was doing it easily. Also, I doubt ANYONE thinks Goku is as strong as Supes.

Energy has to go somewhere. A blast that created a small crater like that could, in no concievable way, destroy a solar system.

Ki attacks function more as explosive attacks than physical attacks. They have two basic forms: Attacks that will explode on contact with a target like a bomb, and attacks that will cut/burn through a target (like kienzan, Frieza's death beam, etc.)

They are not physical

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Energy has to go somewhere. A blast that created a small crater like that could, in no concievable way, destroy a solar system. You are applying real world science to an anime, DBZ was never meant to be scientifically accurate, this is not a comic book. Going by that logic we should discount everytime Supes went past lightspeed as that is scientifically impossible.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You are applying real world science to an anime, DBZ was never meant to be scientifically accurate, this is not a comic book. Going by that logic we should discount everytime Supes went past lightspeed as that is scientifically impossible. Not really because its only the theory of relativity that states that nothing can go faster than the speed of light. which is of course only a theory.

Okay I've got a question. When is it ever said that the Z warriors super charge their punches with ki? I could sort of understand in like the modes when they have ki surrounding their bodies and stuff like when Gokou blocked Trunks' sword but Kid Buu didn't have any ki surrrounding his body and was still able to hurt SSJ3 Gokou with his kicks and punches. And what can they also super charge their jaws because Kid Buu and Gokou were both hurt from biting each other.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Goku SSJ 3 will disintegrate Doomsday in my opinion as he is 2 levels more than when he disintegrate someone like Cell who resist bombs tanks, planes attacks like a breeze, but was disintegrated in parts by Goku and Vegeta. Check page 2. Called it... I called it!

Originally posted by Creshosk
*insert some bull about cell then pigeonhole the argument to being nothing more than ridiculous claims that a planet destroying attack would be too much for doomsday throw in the rolleyes smiliy for good measure.

Originally posted by Kento
Okay I've got a question. When is it ever said that the Z warriors super charge their punches with ki? I could sort of understand in like the modes when they have ki surrounding their bodies and stuff like when Gokou blocked Trunks' sword but Kid Buu didn't have any ki surrrounding his body and was still able to hurt SSJ3 Gokou with his kicks and punches. And what can they also super charge their jaws because Kid Buu and Gokou were both hurt from biting each other. Goku's aura wasn't prominent when he blocked Trunk's sword now was it? Also, I think their ki does raise their durability, kinda like Supe's bio aura.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Goku's aura wasn't prominent when he blocked Trunk's sword now was it? Also, I think their ki does raise their durability, kinda like Supe's bio aura. But wasn't it? Unless it wasn't in the manga but I thought it was. And SSJ2 Gohan has an aura around him when he killed the Cell Jr's. However not every time somebody hits somebody and hurts them do they have an aura around them. Like Mystic Gohan beating Super Buu. Or Buu in general when he hurts somebody. SSJ usually always has aura around them though and Gokou was bullet proof as a kid so why wouldn't he be sword proof? Freeza just had more power doesn't equal the same type of durability as Buu and Cell prove. Though Cell and Buu can regen while Freeza couldn't but still. Also Freeza was mostly machine then so I always thought it was more Gokou's durability and not ki that let him block the sword without getting cut.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Enough with the "Cell could destroy the Solar System" crap.

Do you honestly think this:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3444/cellsolarsystembluff6qx1.gif

Was a solar - system destroying attack?

Clinging religiously to dialogue when it clearly contradicted by the actual events of the manga is a clear sign of fanboyism.

That show the path of the beam that supodsedly when into to space, and it shake the planet before.

yes, like Superman and Darkseid rock a solar sistem, i agree.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
I have sumthin to say about that. He NEVER said his attack will destroy the solar system, only that he enough ki in his hands that would be sufficient to destroy the solar system. The kamehameha is a beam which can be compressed into a smaller, more intense, beam. They have Ki control. Either that or Cell was indeed bluffing.

Agree is the power concentrade, or that Cell have high among of energy, which he never feel before, so he said the expresion.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Ki attacks function more as explosive attacks than physical attacks. They have two basic forms: Attacks that will explode on contact with a target like a bomb, and attacks that will cut/burn through a target (like kienzan, Frieza's death beam, etc.)

They are not physical

how is not physical, they destroy matter, disintegrate at contact, in DB, the Z control it at will. is fantasy, not science fiction.

Originally posted by Kento
Okay I've got a question. When is it ever said that the Z warriors super charge their punches with ki? I could sort of understand in like the modes when they have ki surrounding their bodies and stuff like when Gokou blocked Trunks' sword but Kid Buu didn't have any ki surrrounding his body and was still able to hurt SSJ3 Gokou with his kicks and punches. And what can they also super charge their jaws because Kid Buu and Gokou were both hurt from biting each other.

Kid Buu has Ki, like all matter is ki, but he never glow, when he power up he expel smoke from the little holes in his kneck.

they can supercharge the whole body, but the only time Goku put all his ki in his punch was against Piccolo Daimao.

Originally posted by superkronick92


Even if Goku IT's I could argue superman is as fast as it.
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sspeedwg5.jpg

He's talking to them from the watchtower, then he's in front of them, instantly

is cool, Goku port to Planet of King Kai that is 100000 km. from Emma check out i think, who is another dimension from Earth, to the new planet Namek who is supose to be in another system, but is a cool feat of superman.

I will like to see a fighting speed feat that show this.

So all Superman's adventures as Superboy in the legion are canon again. That means Superman has many of pre crisis Superboy's feats under his belt again. Goku doesn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
how is not physical, they destroy matter, disintegrate at contact, in DB, the Z control it at will. is fantasy, not science fiction.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/68/S0146800.html

NOUN: A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

It has space travel and it has aliens. It's science fiction.

The Ki attacks are not composed of matter, they are composed of energy.

Yes, energy interacts with matter, L ike fire or electricity.

Ki(energy) does not translate to physical (matter)

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Kid Buu has Ki, like all matter is ki, but he never glow, when he power up he expel smoke from the little holes in his kneck.

they can supercharge the whole body, but the only time Goku put all his ki in his punch was against Piccolo Daimao. Ki is energy not matter. English obviously isn't your primary langauge, but stop using it incorrectly.

You're wrong, ki is not matter, ki is energy.
Originally posted by Vvendeta
is cool, Goku port to Planet of King Kai that is 100000 km. from Emma check out i think, who is another dimension from Earth, to the new planet Namek who is supose to be in another system, but is a cool feat of superman.

I will like to see a fighting speed feat that show this. Why? So you can ignore it again? Say that Goku is faster with your scans again?

We went over this already. Prove that superman's spreed is seperate forom an ability to fight fast. He can change his outfit and move at light speeds but this is not "fighting speed" this is "traveling and changing clothes" speed... right? to be able to preform action fast is the same regardless of whether its fighting, moving, changing clothes, stuffing a person's ears with cotten or picking up a bottle of wine.

Prove that they're seperate like you're claiming they are. But why do I bother? You won't do it. You DBZ supporters never do this... You can't. Because it isn't. Yet that some pale hope that you have that "They're seperate, so despite Superman moving at lightspeeds he will not be able to hit goku who can hit him millions of times. Anything you post we'll say that goku has been doing since he's a child and without any proof to back up our claims we'll say that he's even faster than he was."


You got nothing.

Well Cell said he would blow up the solar system and SSJ3 Goku is 1000 times more powerful than him so he would just vapourise DD.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
Kid Buu has Ki, like all matter is ki, but he never glow, when he power up he expel smoke from the little holes in his kneck.

they can supercharge the whole body, but the only time Goku put all his ki in his punch was against Piccolo Daimao. Like I said when does it say they super charge their hits with their ki every single hit? And Kid Buu has ki yes. But so does Videl and she doesn't super charge her hits with ki.

Originally posted by Magee
Well Cell said he would blow up the solar system Claims don't hold much weight.

Originally posted by Juntai
Claims don't hold much weight. I think Magee's being sarcastic.

You are right of course, unbacked claims hold no weight unless stated by a trustworthy source. Someone who claimed to be unbeatable and that he would destroy the other person, and then is destroyed himself have no credibility.

i've also read both the db manga and the superman comics, and its incredibly obvious to me that superman would destroy goku. goku isn't even in his league. i don't know why the dbz fans have to believe that goku is the most powerful thing ever, hell, he isn't even the most powerful in dbz. gohan, gotenks, and all forms of buu save fat buu are more powerful than goku, and yes, superman would easily destroy all of them too.

Yo mods close this thread. Its a spite thread. if someonesays Goku will win and provides proof they will still be called a troll

Goku wins, Dooms day messed Superman up so what the hells he gonna do to Goku or SS Goku. Batman beat Supermans ass, Mumm-ra from the Thundercats whipped Superman's ass, Goku takes this by extreme pwnage 9/10 of the time.. All you need is Kryptonite or magic to beat Supermans ass that's it.

Originally posted by fanboy 1988
Goku wins, Dooms day messed Superman up so what the hells he gonna do to Goku or SS Goku. Batman beat Supermans ass, Mumm-ra from the Thundercats whipped Superman's ass, Goku takes this by extreme pwnage 9/10 of the time.. All you need is Kryptonite or magic to beat Supermans ass that's it.

Considering Goku has neither, I fail to see how your post is relevant.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You are applying real world science to an anime, DBZ was never meant to be scientifically accurate, this is not a comic book. Going by that logic we should discount everytime Supes went past lightspeed as that is scientifically impossible.

That's called suspension of disbelief. We know for a fact Superman can move faster than light (he has demonstrated it). Cell simply made a statement and was later proven wrong. Parsimony dictates that Cell was simply bluffing.