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Ok, guys, heroes are nice and good and everybody loves them, but villains are a dime a dozen. And most are good for a laugh, from the really effective, to... Rhino.

So, based off of the other comics tiering systems we have around here, I was thinking of a tiering system designed to rank the effectiveness, fame (to an extent), and accomplishments of the various villains throughout comics. This keeps in mind goals of said villains, how often they're stopped, as well as intelligence, and whatnot.

I'll start it off, but feel free to add on, or vote for changes.


--------------------------------------------

A+

Anti-Monitor, Dr. Doom, Joker, Ozymandias

--------------------------------------------
A

Bullseye, Doomsday, Darkseid, Luthor, Magneto, Sabertooth, Sinestro

--------------------------------------------
B

Bane, Green Goblin, Kingpin, Loki, Mr. Sinister, Venom, Ra's al Ghul, Ronan

--------------------------------------------
C
Harley Quin, Killer Croc, Mojo, Scorpion

--------------------------------------------
F

Pastepot Pete, Rhino

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Ok, guys, heroes are nice and good and everybody loves them, but villains are a dime a dozen. And most are good for a laugh, from the really effective, to... Rhino.

So, based off of the other comics tiering systems we have around here, I was thinking of a tiering system designed to rank the effectiveness, fame (to an extent), and accomplishments of the various villains throughout comics. This keeps in mind goals of said villains, how often they're stopped, as well as intelligence, and whatnot.

I'll start it off, but feel free to add on, or vote for changes.


--------------------------------------------

A+

Dr. Doom, Joker, Ozymandias, Rhino

--------------------------------------------
A

Bullseye, Doomsday, Darkseid, Luthor, Magneto, Sabertooth, Sinestro

--------------------------------------------
B

Bane, Green Goblin, Kingpin, Loki, Mr. Sinister, Venom, Ra's al Ghul, Ronan

--------------------------------------------
C
Electro, Harley Quin, Killer Croc, Mojo, Scorpion

--------------------------------------------
F

Anti-Monitor, Pastepot Pete fixed 131

oh

Get out.

Maxwell Lord must go on there pretty high.
Thanos also seems to be missing.

Proposals:

Thanos to A+ - 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Maxwell Lord to A- 1 (Smurph) vs. 0

Thanos for A+ 2(smurph, chaos) vs 0

Thanos to A+

Absorbing Man to something low.

Thanos to A+.

--------------------------------------------

A+

Anti-Monitor, Dr. Doom, Joker, Ozymandias, Thanos

--------------------------------------------
A

Bullseye, Doomsday, Darkseid, Luthor, Magneto, Sabertooth, Sinestro

--------------------------------------------
B

Bane, Green Goblin, Kingpin, Loki, Mr. Sinister, Venom, Ra's al Ghul, Ronan

--------------------------------------------
C
Harley Quin, Killer Croc, Mojo, Scorpion

--------------------------------------------
F

Pastepot Pete, Rhino





Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A- 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C- 1 (Smurph) vs. 0

Changes:
-Added Thanos to A+

Proposal:

Galactus to A

Tyrant to A+

Galactus averages to B at best.

I actaully think sabertooth is in a good spot. hmm maybe add cyber to a as well

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A- 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C- 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Galactus to A- 1 (Masterbruce) vs. 2 (Smurph, Soljer)
Tyrant to A+ - 1(Masterbruce) vs. 0

Yeah... Big G doesn't have nearly the track record that he should have.

venom to b- or c+ maybe lower

the dude has all the powers, but he acts like an idiot. I mean for one spiderman really should not be a threat.

Logan should not be stalemating him either.

the guy is just not very effective considering his powers

How about Black Adam, Apocalypse, Grodd, Juggernaut and.......and.......Mole Man and Toy Man! w00t

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Proposal:

Galactus to A

Tyrant to A+

here your proving why your on the very low end of knowledge when considering the rest fo the board.

the fantastic four has defeat Big G. Big G loses to people he should smoke.

Galactus track record is B-ish, but his importance is A+, so averages out to A imo

he effectiveness and accoplisments are extremely low considering his abilties . Hell at best he be ranked a B over all. Though he likly a c

Proposal:

Luthor to A+

Originally posted by Battlehammer
venom to b- or c+ maybe lower

the dude has all the powers, but he acts like an idiot. I mean for one spiderman really should not be a threat.

Logan should not be stalemating him either.

the guy is just not very effective considering his powers I'm not making -/+ tiers except the first one.

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Galactus to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 2 (Smurph, Soljer, Battlehammer)
Tyrant to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Cyber to A ... 1 (Battlehammer) vs. 0
Luthor to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 1 (Smurph)

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
I'm not making -/+ tiers except the first one.

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Galactus to A 1 (Masterbruce) vs. 2 (Smurph, Soljer)
Tyrant to A+ 1(Masterbruce) vs. 0
Cyber to A 1(Battlehammer) vs. 0
aight venom to b for me and against galactus to A

Originally posted by Battlehammer
here your proving why your on the very low end of knowledge when considering the rest fo the board.

the fantastic four has defeat Big G. Big G loses to people he should smoke. Because they have the UN?

Also, Galactus isn't even a villain...

Proposal:

Juggernaut to B

Apocalypse to B

Carnage to A

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Proposal:

Juggernaut to B

Apocalypse to B

Carnage to A
carnage fights jsut as dumb as venom does if not worse

Originally posted by Battlehammer
carnage fights jsut as dumb as venom does if not worse Carnage is much more of a threat than Venom ever is. Carnage is dangerous, if Sabretooth is A, then so is Carnage.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Carnage is much more of a threat than Venom ever is. Carnage is dangerous, if Sabretooth is A, then so is Carnage.

sabertooth is an A becuase he actaully effective. He actaully kills people that Logan does nto want him to kill.


carnage fights like a morron. get beat by spiderman who should not even be a threat.

hell carnage is supose to be more powerful then venom yet venom tends to coem off as superior.

Originally posted by Battlehammer



carnage fights like a morron. get beat by spiderman who should not even be a threat.


whereas Logan fights off Sabretooth by himself, Spiderman usually has help fighting Carnage

If they fight heroes often, whether truly villainous or not, they can go on here, I suppose.

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Galactus to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 2 (Smurph, Soljer, Battlehammer)
Tyrant to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Cyber to A ... 1 (Battlehammer) vs. 0
Luthor to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 1 (Smurph)
Juggernaut to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Carnage to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 1 (Battlehammer)
Apocalypse to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0




Start agreeing or defeating, guys... list's getting kinda big.

Disagree with Carnage and Galactus to A. Agree with Luthor to A+.

Galactus isn't a villain...

That's like putting Eternity on the list, or Adam Warlock.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
If they fight heroes often, whether truly villainous or not, they can go on here, I suppose.

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Galactus to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 2 (Smurph, Soljer, Battlehammer)
Tyrant to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Cyber to A ... 1 (Battlehammer) vs. 0
Luthor to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 1 (Smurph)
Juggernaut to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Carnage to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 1 (Battlehammer)
Apocalypse to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0




Start agreeing or defeating, guys... list's getting kinda big.
Agree with Absorbing man to C.

Well, with Big G, he purposely tries to harm heroes, or their planets, and thus has a specific goal concerning the death of the heroes... so I don't mind if he's on the list. He has a dependant success rate, and is a natural enemy to heroes.

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A ... 1 (Smurph) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C ... 2 (Smurph, Jason) vs. 0
Galactus to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 4 (Smurph, Soljer, Battlehammer, hugekent)
Tyrant to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Cyber to A ... 1 (Battlehammer) vs. 0
Luthor to A+ ... 2 (Master-Borg, hugekent) vs. 1 (Smurph)
Juggernaut to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Carnage to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 2 (Battlehammer, hugekent)
Apocalypse to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0



Notes:

Vote to have Galactus on the list?

1 (Smurph) vs. 1 (Bran)

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Well, with Big G, he purposely tries to harm heroes, or their planets, and thus has a specific goal concerning the death of the heroes... so I don't mind if he's on the list. He has a dependant success rate, and is a natural enemy to heroes. He doesn't purposely.
When he has to, he defends himself.

It's like when a Lion has to eat, he eats something, I'm sure. Is he 'evil'?
When Galactus has to eat, he eats planets. Is that 'evil'?

If he's on the list, then you might as well throw Thor on the list for eating animals.

Galactus is just as evil as anyone who eats meat, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Bransolute
He doesn't purposely.
When he has to, he defends himself.

It's like when a Lion has to eat, he eats something, I'm sure. Is he 'evil'?
When Galactus has to eat, he eats planets. Is that 'evil'?

If he's on the list, then you might as well throw Thor on the list for eating animals.

Galactus is just as evil as anyone who eats meat, I'm afraid.

Unlike meat eaters or lions Galactus is both aware of the sentientience of his prey and sentient himself.

Originally posted by Bransolute
He doesn't purposely.
When he has to, he defends himself.

It's like when a Lion has to eat, he eats something, I'm sure. Is he 'evil'?
When Galactus has to eat, he eats planets. Is that 'evil'?

If he's on the list, then you might as well throw Thor on the list for eating animals.

Galactus is just as evil as anyone who eats meat, I'm afraid. taking that logic a bit further, then guys like Carnage or Joker aren't villains because they're clinically insane and mental disease is the reason they do what they do. They're perhaps predisposed to commit mayhem as Galactus is to eat planets.

Carnage is not A.

Agree with Absorbing Man.

Agree with Maxwell Lord.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Unlike meat eaters or lions Galactus is both aware of the sentientience of his prey and sentient himself. We know monkeys are smart... but we still eat them...

Plus, the things Galactus eats, are so below him in intelligence, and tech, just like our good eats are.

Originally posted by Bransolute
We know monkeys are smart... but we still eat them...

Plus, the things Galactus eats, are so below him in intelligence, and tech, just like our good eats are.

Do you have negotiations with your food? There's a massive difference.

Glactus considers himself superior but he's aware that his actions kill creature that build civilization and have thoughts and emotions. Yet he does it anyway. Of course he does it to save all of reality but meh.

Originally posted by Bransolute
We know monkeys are smart... but we still eat them...

Plus, the things Galactus eats, are so below him in intelligence, and tech, just like our good eats are. Galactus has been outsmarted by his food many times....

Originally posted by Soljer
Carnage is not A.

why is Sabretooth and Bullseye in class A?

Proposals:
Maxwell Lord to A ... 2 (Smurph, Soljer) vs. 0
Absorbing Man to C ... 3 (Smurph, Jason, Soljer) vs. 0
Galactus to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 4 (Smurph, Soljer, Battlehammer, hugekent)
Tyrant to A+ ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Cyber to A ... 1 (Battlehammer) vs. 0
Luthor to A+ ... 2 (Master-Borg, hugekent) vs. 1 (Smurph)
Juggernaut to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0
Carnage to A ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 3 (Battlehammer, hugekent, Soljer)
Apocalypse to B ... 1 (Master-Borg) vs. 0



Notes:

-Vote to have Galactus on the list?

1 (Smurph) vs. 1 (Bran)

-I'll add Absorbing Man soon.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
why is Sabretooth and Bullseye in class A? Sabertooth and Bullseye are better villains than Carnage.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Sabertooth and Bullseye are better villains than Carnage. ok Im a little confused by the criteria you're going by...could you define it a little more

I see Green Goblin on an equal part with Sabretooth, both are heroe's worst longtime nemesis and both have killed important people.

I vote to move Green Goblin to A.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Sabertooth and Bullseye are better villains than Carnage.

Agreed.

Carnage and Venom 'job' way too often.

Bullseye and Sabretooth, while not as powerful as Carnage or Venom, fight with a smidgen more intelligence. .

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Galactus has been outsmarted by his food many times.... How many times?

Also, I remember a gazelle outsmarting a hyena and a cheetah...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do you have negotiations with your food? There's a massive difference.

Glactus considers himself superior but he's aware that his actions kill creature that build civilization and have thoughts and emotions. Yet he does it anyway. Of course he does it to save all of reality but meh. It doesn't matter if we do or not. He's still about as far above them, as we are of other creatures.
Hell, talking in general isn't needed when the cosmic beings talk to each other.

We're aware of our actions, that we make species extinct...

To save all reality... doesn't that tell you something? That he doesn't belong in this thread...

Originally posted by Soljer
Agreed.

Carnage and Venom 'job' way too often.

Bullseye and Sabretooth, while not as powerful as Carnage or Venom, fight with a smidgen more intelligence. .
yes and they get shit done

Originally posted by Master-Borg
ok Im a little confused by the criteria you're going by...could you define it a little more

I see Green Goblin on an equal part with Sabretooth, both are heroe's worst longtime nemesis and both have killed important people.

I vote to move Green Goblin to A. How good are they as villains? How often do they job, what have they accomplished, how do they affect the heroes they battle?

Bullseye and Sabes are two very intelligent mass murderers, who rarely job. Sabes been fighting Wolverine for centuries, and Bullseye gets into DD's head like no other (with the possible exception of Kingpin) can.

Bullseye killed Elektra
Sabertooth's been killing for centuries
Bullseye's weaker than DD but holds his own, even against Deadpool. Bullseye has the comic industry trademark of never missing... even more so than Deadshot
Sabertooth's more widely recognized than Carnage and is a much more successful killer.

thanks for the explanation smurph

Black Adam for A+.

Charon (Negation) to A or A+

What are the criterias?

why is Luthor below The Joker

He's just as ifamous, and just as deadly, he's at the top

Well Charon was the main villain of an entire comic book company (Crossgen), he conquered an entire universe, created tons of evil villains like Qztr, personally murdered and tortured lots of characters, demonstrated lots of feats, has an interesting backstory and character....

He definitely deserves a spot high on the list.

Red Hood for A.

Not enough for an A+,but so far he's yet to fail in one of hios grand schemes,while playing Batman and GA for chumps,and taking down Black masks Criminal empire when Batman was struggling.

Malefic for A.His only loss was in a telepathic fight with Jonn,and the only thing that stopped him from killing the league was Jonn throwing him and an entire city into the sun.

Sabertooth to B.

Apocalypse for B

I was thinking C but B will do.

Apocalypse to F






























super13

I dont think that Doom and Joker should be on the same level. Sure Joker and Doom have amassed vast power but most of the time they are not on the same level as Anti-Monitor. Anti-Monitor is never a street level threat he is always cosmic.

Originally posted by Priest
Apocalypse to F






























super13

Make that two votes.

Originally posted by Bransolute
It doesn't matter if we do or not. He's still about as far above them, as we are of other creatures.
Hell, talking in general isn't needed when the cosmic beings talk to each other.

We're aware of our actions, that we make species extinct...

You consider animals that you eat to be intelligent sentient creatures? AFAIK that's not a common belief among meat eaters.

Originally posted by Bransolute
To save all reality... doesn't that tell you something? That he doesn't belong in this thread...

It occured to me but I ignored it because it wasn't the point you started with

I think top level should be in two ways. Body count or cruelty.

I donno about how we order them is best but meh.

Mephisto A+

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont think that Doom and Joker should be on the same level. Sure Joker and Doom have amassed vast power but most of the time they are not on the same level as Anti-Monitor. Anti-Monitor is never a street level threat he is always cosmic.

One should list accomplishments and another should list cruelty+pain they've caused the protagonist.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You consider animals that you eat to be intelligent sentient creatures? AFAIK that's not a common belief among meat eaters. Compared to the things Galactus eats?
Galactus is smarter than the things he eats, just as we are smarter than the things we eat.

And before anyone brings up Earth. That's like one out of a million planets or so, that Galactus can't really eat.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It occured to me but I ignored it because it wasn't the point you started with No, my point is that Galactus has to eat to survive. Same as humans.

Either way you look at it, he doesn't belong in this thread.

My criteria was their overall effect on their arch enemies and their respective universes as a whole.

Originally posted by hugekent
My criteria was their overall effect on their arch enemies and their respective universes as a whole. That's pretty in-line with what I was thinking, along with their general success rate and fame as a villain.

Red: Joker > Luthor, villain wise.

Someone wanna update this list? If not, I will tomorrow.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
That's pretty in-line with what I was thinking, along with their general success rate and fame as a villain.

Red: Joker > Luthor, villain wise.

Someone wanna update this list? If not, I will tomorrow.

I still disagree. Their kind of opposite coins to a coin flip. Luthor is just as well known, and is Superman's trademark enemy, which is ironic, since he has no powers, he was in many of the movies, he's A+ for his businessman like approach to evil deeds, and his fame.

Originally posted by Capt Spaulding
I still disagree. Their kind of opposite coins to a coin flip. Luthor is just as well known, and is Superman's trademark enemy, which is ironic, since he has no powers, he was in many of the movies, he's A+ for his businessman like approach to evil deeds, and his fame. Luthor is not as well known...

The villain community fears Luthor because he can crush them with his level of power/influence. The villain community fears Joker, because he scares the shit out of them.

I think the level on which Joker affects Batman is more impressive than the level on which Luthor affects Superman.

I also think that Joker's performance as Emperor Joker was more villainous than what Luthor would have done... which, IMO, defines the difference between them

Luthor kills for power.
Joker kills (also huge amounts of people, despite his lack of money/power) for fun.

I think Joker is more villainous, and a higher grade of villain.

I think a case can be made for Luthor to A+... but I wouldn't put him on par with Joker, Thanos or Doom. Maybe Ozy...

Didn't Luthor give like hundreds of people powers, just so he could kill them...

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Luthor is not as well known...

I think that Joker's feared by the villain community more than Luthor, because, for all of Luthor's intelligence, power and money, he can't match Joker's raw insanity for villainy.

I think the level on which Joker affects Batman is more impressive than the level on which Luthor affects Superman.

I also think that Joker's performance as Emperor Joker was more villainous than what Luthor would have done... which, IMO, defines the difference between them

Luthor kills for power.
Joker kills (also huge amounts of people, despite his lack of money/power) for fun.

I think Joker is more villainous, and a higher grade of villain.

Anyone who was alive in the 1970's, 80's, 90's, or 00's knows lex Luthor whether it be through gene Hackman, Clancy Brown, or Kevin Spacey. Luthor does things out of the spotlight, for his image's sake, he isn't insane, and he's no longer ur stereotypical mad scientist, and to further add to his character, what's more sinister than a Businessman? A Politician. I say we put this to a vote for A+

Originally posted by Bransolute
Didn't Luthor give like hundreds of people powers, just so he could kill them... As I recall, he gave them powers so he could control them... by controlling whether their powers worked or not. Iirc.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
As I recall, he gave them powers so he could control them... by controlling whether their powers worked or not. Iirc. And a lot of them died...
I remember him turning someone's power off (I think it was Impulse) right when she was in the middle of battle...

Originally posted by Capt Spaulding
Anyone who was alive in the 1970's, 80's, 90's, or 00's knows lex Luthor whether it be through gene Hackman, Clancy Brown, or Kevin Spacey. Luthor does things out of the spotlight, for his image's sake, he isn't insane, and he's no longer ur stereotypical mad scientist, and to further add to his character, what's more sinister than a Businessman? A Politician. I say we put this to a vote for A+ I editted my post.

And Joker is much more sinister than Luthor.

And I would bet money on the fact that the layman is more familiar with Batman/Joker than Superman/Luthor.

Ask someone with little to no comics knowledge who Batman's biggest villain is, to most it comes easy... or, faster than asking who Superman's biggest villain is.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
I editted my post.

And Joker is much more sinister than Luthor.

And I would bet money on the fact that the layman is more familiar with Batman/Joker than Superman/Luthor.

Ask someone with little to no comics knowledge who Batman's biggest villain is, to most it comes easy... or, faster than asking who Superman's biggest villain is.


Not to anyone I know, Superman/Luthor is pretty common knowledge, I mean I now Batman has the greatest rogue's gallery, but the SUperman/Luthor relationship is just as infamous, and he's still one of the most overused villains ever(it's screwing up his character) but still, this needs to be placed to a vote.

Originally posted by Bransolute
And a lot of them died...
I remember him turning someone's power off (I think it was Impulse) right when she was in the middle of battle... Because he didn't like how she was performing, and her danger to the team's pr. Also that her powers were causing malfunctions.

He doesn't care about death, but he doesn't do it for the sake of death.

Look at Joker vs. Jason Todd, Oracle.

Then look at Luthor vs. Supergirl.

Zoom A- or b

Originally posted by Capt Spaulding
Not to anyone I know, Superman/Luthor is pretty common knowledge, I mean I now Batman has the greatest rogue's gallery, but the SUperman/Luthor relationship is just as infamous, and he's still one of the most overused villains ever(it's screwing up his character) but still, this needs to be placed to a vote. It may be close, but Joker's infamy stretches beyond that of Luthor.

And to clarify, I'm not claiming Luthor isn't A+ (I don't think he is, but my opinion could be swayed). I don't, however, think that he can stack up to Mr. J

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
It may be close, but Joker's infamy stretches beyond that of Luthor.

And to clarify, I'm not claiming Luthor isn't A+ (I don't think he is, but my opinion could be swayed). I don't, however, think that he can stack up to Mr. J
J has done FAR worse then luthor

Luthor has great potential but poor execution

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Apocalypse for B

Originally posted by Switch 07
Sabertooth to B.

Add my vote to B as well.

I'm trying not to be biased about this

Two-Face for B

Hush for B

Exodus for B

Morlun for B

KingPin for B

Just noticed Kingpin is already there.

Galactus doesn't belong on the list. He does only eat to survive and does make deals to spare planets by taking new heralds. He's not completely heartless. He's also keeping Abraxas in check. So he has good motivation for some of his "evil actions" Not only his survival but the survival of well... all of the marvel multiverse. If anything put Abraxas up on A+ for forcing not only this, but the only way to get rid of him was to destroy the multiverse and recreate it.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm trying not to be biased about this

Two-Face for B

Hush for B

Exodus for B

Morlun for B

KingPin for B

morlun for a

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
morlun for a

No.

Let's not be silly.

Originally posted by Citizen V
No.

Let's not be silly.

He shitstomped spidey and ate his eye....

morlun for a

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
He shitstomped spidey and ate his eye....

morlun for a

No.

He got his ass kicked when he tried that shit again, he doesn't deserve to be A, at all.

Can i see the list updated?

Originally posted by Citizen V
No.

He got his ass kicked when he tried that shit again, he doesn't deserve to be A, at all. yep. only reason was because he could suck the lifeforce of spidey with everypunch...

he got WTFBBQPWN't by Spidey with the stingers.

i'd say B.

Against Red Hood, Sabretooth and Zoom.

Zoom should be A - he always pretty much toys with the heroes and does whatever he damned well pleases.

Editted that in.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Editted that in.

With very poor code.

For - Black Adam, Apocalypse and Luthor.

DC
I nominate Cyborg for A+
I nominate Major Force for B or A
I nominate Despero for A
I nominate Eclipso for A+

Marvel
I nominate Mr. Sinister to A
I nominate Red Skull to A or B


I also think there needs to be more ranks. Bullseye and Sabes should NOT be on the same villainry level as the rest in A.

maybe also there should be a D lvl? and a limit on how many proposals should go on at one time?

Xorn to A+. Killing Jean, killing lots of people in Manhattan. I think he also killed one of the Stepford gals. He also had this undercover thing going on for a while and was mimicing Magneto and pretty much was recruiting X-students for his neo nazi group.

Random-goon-who-shot-aunt-May to A. Killed aunt May. Hm.

See why the classification should be changed. IMO a overall "goodness"/effectiveness/coolness should be the factor that counts. For example not many of the Spider-man's enemies can get very high on this rating system as Spider-man has never really lost anyone important to him aside from May & Gwen. (Yeah yeah, he lost his life and at other time, MJ for a while. May was also capture by Scorpnom for a while yadda yadda) Maybe the current classification system just needs to be a bit.. Clearer?

Seriously though:
GreenGoblin should definitely be A+. The whole clone saga was orchestrated by him, he was first one to know Spidey's identity, he killed Gwen, he was the reason Chameleon built copies of Peter's Parents. The whole deal with Gwen's twins. Plus he's just that badass. (Norman that is)

Adding Cassandra Nova & Wanda to A+. They got rid most of the mutants.
Why's Dr.Doom so high? He isn't that impressive.
Sinister to A. He has f-ed with the X-men by cloning, turning them to humans etc so many times that he has pretty much guaranteed his place in A.
Apocalypse B
Hulk to A
Onslaught to B.

I never really liked Doom too much either, and I wouldn't place him in A+.

The same goes for Anti-Monitor. To me, he doesn't actually seem like a very interesting villain. Destruction capabilities/power doesn't actually make a villain so I'm in agreement that the criteria should be changed.

What exactly makes a villain superior to another ? Power ? Respect ? Feats ? This needs to be elaborated. For example, I like Magneto and Two Face better than Anti-Monitor ..

Doom's more impressive than anybody in A.

And if people want the system or amount of tiers to change, that's fine, but say how they should change. Don't give me any ambiguous "i dun lyke it..." comments. What would be a better system, why?

Magneto for A+.

Originally posted by jrodslam
For - Black Adam, Apocalypse and Luthor.

DC
I nominate Cyborg for A+
I nominate Major Force for B or A
I nominate Despero for A
I nominate Eclipso for A+

Marvel
I nominate Mr. Sinister to A
I nominate Red Skull to A or B


I also think there needs to be more ranks. Bullseye and Sabes should NOT be on the same villainry level as the rest in A.

For example personality, history and such. What attracts me to a villain is complexity, not necesarrily accomplishments. Take Anti-Monitor for example. He destroyed the Multiverse. Okay, so what ? Does this make him A+ ? Is he a complex character ? Interesting ? Does he have any conflicts inside of him like for example a character like Magneto has ? Villains such as "I'm so powerfull I can destroy everything/blink you out of existence/recreate the Omniverse with a thought" or "OMG I would so own you with prep" don't really impress me very much.

But then again, to each his own.

Originally posted by batdude123
Magneto for A+.

I second that.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
For example personality, history and such. What attracts me to a villain is complexity, not necesarrily accomplishments. Take Anti-Monitor for example. He destroyed the Multiverse. Okay, so what ? Does this make him A+ ? Is he a complex character ? Interesting ? Does he have any conflicts inside of him like for example a character like Magneto has ? Villains such as "I'm so powerfull I can destroy everything/blink you out of existence/recreate the Omniverse with a thought" or "OMG I would so own you with prep" don't really impress me very much.

But then again, to each his own.

True. Like certain bad guys have a vendetta against a certain character and spen their time making that good guys life hell. Then you have other bad guys that are a threat to the entire world or country. You have guys like Doom, Magneto, Despero and Eclipso that go for world domination. Then on the other hand you have baddies like Joker, Luthor, Kingpin, Red Skull who also go for country or world dominaton, HOWEVER they dont have nearly the power or resources of a Doom or Magneto. They just have the smarts and are very cunning.

Others like Bullseye and Sabertooth think small compared to those like Kingpin and Luthor. They operate on a bigger scale. Hell, Bullseye worked for Kingpin and takes his orders.

Joker mainly does what he does, because he wants to and/or thinks its fun. His rampage is city-wide.

I think things like that need to be addressed.

I don't think villains that occur TOO often should get above a B. In example, Deathstroke.

I saws it Cresh. Thankee, I'll fix it next update.

As for everyone else...

The criteria for judging villains: (with Sabretooth and Bullseye as examples)

-Their capacity for villainous acts
I think Sabretooth and Bullseye, if they had the power, would kill just as many herald level heroes as Doomsday has

-Their accomplishments
Sabes and Bullseye are right up there with the biggest serial killers, even in comics... they hold their own with people more powerful then they are, and have even killed or nearly killed some big names. Sabretooth's been killing for centuries, and has never been successfully stopped.

-Their fame
Sabretooth and Bullseye are both widely feared and respected, even by more powerful individuals than themselves. Bullseye's famous throughout the comics industry for never missing, even moreso than Deadshot, and EVERYBODY knows who Sabretooth is.

All of these are subjective. Sabretooth, who doesn't desire money or power, is bound to have less material accomplishments than, say, Luthor, but at the same time has gotten away with killing an overwhelming amount of people, especially for a lowly mutie like himself.

Bullseye can's perform as many villainous acts as Darkseid, but he has the will to.

We could add complexity as villains if the majority want. I'd be ok with that.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
Doom's more impressive than anybody in A.

And if people want the system or amount of tiers to change, that's fine, but say how they should change. Don't give me any ambiguous "i dun lyke it..." comments. What would be a better system, why?

Doom isn't more impressive than Thanos, Antimonitor or Joker. Not now days, I might be wrong as we hardly ever get FF comics into Finland. :/

Not sure about Thanos being A+. Maybe A would fit him better, as he has CO-OPed with the Heroes some times.

Sorry if my last post lacked constructive criticism, but I thought it might be little too bold just to outright say what's good in my opinion. It's your thread after all, but if you don't mind a chance, then we should go with Erik's idea(s). IMO power doesn't necessarily make a good villain. Anti-monitor, Thanos, Darkseid and such would be pretty low on my PERSONAL list.

Buuut, we're on a public forum, so I try to keep my own preferences in check and let the fans mind their characters. I don't like Darkseid, I'm not going to vote him down just because I dislike him as an enemy. I'll ignore the rock faced bastard... Wait, WTF am I talking about. Plz carry on.

As much as i like Bullseye and as much as many in the Marvel world fear him, hes just a street level treat and maybe slightly higher. He gets paid to do a job. He knows his limits. Same goes for Sabes. Hes only a level higer than street level threat imo.

I know these two have killed hundreds of people just for the sake of doing it, but they are inside a box so to speak. They just dont operate on a higher scale.

I just couldnt put them on the same villainry level as Darseid, Luthor, Sinestro or Magneto.

The beauty of this list is that it's purely subjective.

What has Sinister done that puts him on A?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
What has Sinister done that puts him on A?

Being cooler than Apocalypse?

But then again, that alone would only put him on 'C' level... so never mind. ermmhappy

Originally posted by Jyppe
Doom isn't more impressive than Thanos, Antimonitor or Joker. Not now days, I might be wrong as we hardly ever get FF comics into Finland. :/

Not sure about Thanos being A+. Maybe A would fit him better, as he has CO-OPed with the Heroes some times.

Sorry if my last post lacked constructive criticism, but I thought it might be little too bold just to outright say what's good in my opinion. It's your thread after all, but if you don't mind a chance, then we should go with Erik's idea(s). IMO power doesn't necessarily make a good villain. Anti-monitor, Thanos, Darkseid and such would be pretty low on my PERSONAL list.

Buuut, we're on a public forum, so I try to keep my own preferences in check and let the fans mind their characters. I don't like Darkseid, I'm not going to vote him down just because I dislike him as an enemy. I'll ignore the rock faced bastard... Wait, WTF am I talking about. Plz carry on. I said he's more impressive than anybody in A. Not A+. ermm

Meh, I'd be fine with adding Villain Complexity as an additional criteria... I actually think it's a really good idea.

And this is a public thread. Criticism is welcome.

That being said, I still think Thanos is A+, though I don't care about Anti-Monitor.

Originally posted by jrodslam
As much as i like Bullseye and as much as many in the Marvel world fear him, hes just a street level treat and maybe slightly higher. He gets paid to do a job. He knows his limits. Same goes for Sabes. Hes only a level higer than street level threat imo.

I know these two have killed hundreds of people just for the sake of doing it, but they are inside a box so to speak. They just dont operate on a higher scale.

I just couldnt put them on the same villainry level as Darseid, Luthor, Sinestro or Magneto. I'd prefer to judge how good villains they are, rather then how big threats they are.

If somebody should be just a street level threat, but accomplishes something extremely impressive for a street level threat, that's just as good as a herald level threat affecting people at the top or above HIS ladder.

Magneto for A+ - batdude123, Erik-Lensherr for vs. (nobody) against

Originally posted by batdude123
Being cooler than Apocalypse?

But then again, that alone would only put him on 'C' level... so never mind. ermmhappy

So, what has he done?

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
I'd prefer to judge how good villains they are, rather then how big threats they are.

If somebody should be just a street level threat, but accomplishes something extremely impressive for a street level threat, that's just as good as a herald level threat affecting people at the top or above HIS ladder.

Agreed.

If we went by that, our list would look similar to the character tier list at the top of the page.

Originally posted by SpookySmurph
I said he's more impressive than anybody in A. Not A+. ermm

Meh, I'd be fine with adding Villain Complexity as an additional criteria... I actually think it's a really good idea.

And this is a public thread. Criticism is welcome.

That being said, I still think Thanos is A+, though I don't care about Anti-Monitor.

Damn, sorry. IMO Doom is pretty much equal with Magneto. They're both arch enemies of FF & X-men. IMO they belong to A instead of A+. They're not murdering bastards (Joker for example) nor are they that big threats (On a "OMG call the avengers!" - Scale) They both A class characters originality & personality wise though. They're not as one dimensional as Monitor for example, but this doesn't matter unless you want to chance the criteria. Doom is more powerful of the 2 AFAIK.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So, what has he done?

Isn't current Apocalypse... Rather lame?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Damn, sorry. IMO Doom is pretty much equal with Magneto. They're both arch enemies of FF & X-men. IMO they belong to A instead of A+. They're not murdering bastards (Joker for example) nor are they that big threats (On a "OMG call the avengers!" - Scale) They both A class characters originality & personality wise though. They're not as one dimensional as Monitor for example, but this doesn't matter unless you want to chance the criteria. Doom is more powerful of the 2 AFAIK.



Isn't current Apocalypse... Rather lame?

I'm talking about Sinister...

Originally posted by Jyppe
Isn't current Apocalypse... Rather lame?

So, What has Sinister done that warrants an A?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Doom is more powerful of the 2 AFAIK.

no2

Originally posted by Jyppe

Sinister to A. He has f-ed with the X-men by cloning, turning them to humans etc so many times that he has pretty much guaranteed his place in A.

Was a pain in HE's ass too. Is he Gambit's father or was that some weird alternative reality crap? The whole deal with Jean & Cyke and their genes. I'm not so sure about the current Sinister, as Finland doesn't get comics fast enough, and quite many stories never make it to here. His Neverland project or what ever it was called was pretty "awesome" too.

IMO Apocalypse was an A level villain, but now days he's pretty.. lame.

Originally posted by batdude123
no2

Isn't he like the second best magic user on 616 earth? Wasn't he considered second only to Strange?

Stryfe deserves an A before Sinister.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Isn't he like the second best magic user on 616 earth? Wasn't he considered second only to Strange?

Originally posted by Jyppe
IMO Apocalypse was an A level villain, but now days he's pretty.. lame.

BoA?


Yeah, that garbage.

The only thing good Milligan did was taking Apoc out of that "world conqueror" portrayal that AoA started.

Originally posted by llagrok
Stryfe deserves an A before Sinister.





Wikipedia disagrees with you. Can someone who actually is able to read FF regularly give us some insight?

Doom also possesses a good deal of magic ability which he learned from his time with a secret order of monks in Tibet, as well as knowledge passed on from his magically-inclined mother. He is able to fire blasts of mystical energy from his hands, create protective shields of magical energy, ensnare foes in bands of energy (the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak), and create portals to other planes of existence, such as Mephisto's hellish realm or the Dreamtime of the Australian Aborigines. Doom has also developed the ability to psionically transfer his consciousness into another nearby human being with whom he's made eye contact, a process which he learned from the alien Ovoids. However, Doom prefers his own body and only uses this transference power as a last resort. It has been stated that Dr. Doom is, in fact, next in line for the title of Sorcerer Supreme after Dr. Strange. Though he more or less shunned the mystic arts for scientific pursuits, he recently made a pact with the Haazareth Three, a group of demons who amplified his powers greatly so he could kidnap Franklin and Valeria Richards, simultaneously imprisoning the FF and Doctor Strange to prevent them interfering with his schemes.


Apologies if I was wrong.

EDIT - BadAsh. What was the latest turn of events, concerning Apoc? Is he still "paying" back his loan to the Celestials?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Isn't he like the second best magic user on 616 earth? Wasn't he considered second only to Strange?

Yes, he came in second place to Dr. Strange for the sorcerer supreme title. However, that's just a technicality. He almost never uses magic, and even when he does, the power he outputs is still below Magneto's.

If we used that fact alone to base his power level off of, he'd probably be in the high herald category (despite what actual feats tell us).

In terms of raw power, Magneto is Doom's superior.

Whoa whoa. Doom the second best magic user on Earth next to Strange? No way.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Whoa whoa. Doom the second best magic user on Earth next to Strange? No way.

Agreed.

Originally posted by batdude123
Yes, he came in second place to Dr. Strange for the sorcerer supreme title. However, that's just a technicality. He almost never uses magic, and even when he does, the power he outputs is still below Magneto's.

If we used that fact alone to base his power level off of, he'd probably be in the high herald category (despite what actual feats tell us).

In terms of raw power, Magneto is Doom's superior.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Why is he considered the next sorcerer supreme if he isn't that powerful? Or does it depend on something different? And wikipedia does state something about another power up, he was able to take Strange and FF at the same time..?

Did Magneto gain his powers back? I remember him getting them back during the whole Collective story, but was it permanent?

Originally posted by batdude123
Yes, he came in second place to Dr. Strange for the sorcerer supreme title. However, that's just a technicality. He almost never uses magic, and even when he does, the power he outputs is still below Magneto's.
Doom rocked Pre-pussy Beyonder with a magic blast...

Also, Mags said that they were too equal in raw power, and then he tried to control him and got punked...

Originally posted by Jyppe
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Why is he considered the next sorcerer supreme if he isn't that powerful? Or does it depend on something different? And wikipedia does state something about another power up, he was able to take Strange and FF at the same time..?

A lot of things in comics make absolutely no sense. I would consider this to be one of those things.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Did Magneto gain his powers back? I remember him getting them back during the whole Collective story, but was it permanent?



He got his powers back in New Avengers #20.

http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magnetorepoweredzu7.jpg

Also, there's going to be an upcoming X-Men arc featuring him in it.

http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncanny491dcp0022cw6.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncanny491dcp0023hb2.jpg

Originally posted by Bransolute
Doom rocked Pre-pussy Beyonder with a magic blast...

Also, Mags said that they were too equal in raw power, and then he tried to control him and got punked...
He's not as powerful as Magneto.

Certainly not on a consistent basis.

Soo.. Cassandra Nova to A/A+?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Soo.. Cassandra Nova to A/A+?

How are you guys rating Villians? In terms of power threat? Or in terms of badassery and consistency?

Originally posted by batdude123
A lot of things in comics make absolutely no sense. I would consider this to be one of those things.





He got his powers back in New Avengers #20.

http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magnetorepoweredzu7.jpg

Also, there's going to be an upcoming X-Men arc featuring him in it.

http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncanny491dcp0022cw6.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncanny491dcp0023hb2.jpg I always wondered, After that issue in NA does Magneto only have his powers back? Of all the powers contained in him I would expect him to have more than just Magnetism now.

Originally posted by batdude123
He's not as powerful as Magneto.

Certainly not on a consistent basis. I was talking about magic.
His magic is consistently>>>>>Mags.
Hurting Meph, summoning the bands of Cy, hurting Beyonder, summoning the Beyonder, etc.

Also, what exactly do you base Doom not being as powerful by? Him not controlling mass machines? Him not cheap shot knocking out Strange, and Huc? Him not blood ripping people?
He's not like that. However, his power is still extremely high. He's still a team wrecker.
He's one shotted top tiers... under equal circumstances. He's one-shotted Warlock when Warlock tried to cheap shot him...

BigBran - What do you know about his (Doom's) recent power up? And maybe you should move this to a Vs. thread.

Originally posted by Jyppe
What was the latest turn of events, concerning Apoc? Is he still "paying" back his loan to the Celestials?

It hasn't been revealed yet.

Originally posted by Jyppe
BigBran - What do you know about his (Doom's) recent power up? And maybe you should move this to a Vs. thread. Are you talking about when he got a massive power up via magic?

Originally posted by Bransolute
Are you talking about when he got a massive power up via magic?

Originally posted by Jyppe
he recently made a pact with the Haazareth Three, a group of demons who amplified his powers greatly so he could kidnap Franklin and Valeria Richards, simultaneously imprisoning the FF and Doctor Strange to prevent them interfering with his schemes.



That one.

Originally posted by Bransolute
I was talking about magic.
His magic is consistently>>>>>Mags.
Hurting Meph, summoning the bands of Cy, hurting Beyonder, summoning the Beyonder, etc.

Also, what exactly do you base Doom not being as powerful by? Him not controlling mass machines? Him not cheap shot knocking out Strange, and Huc? Him not blood ripping people?
He's not like that. However, his power is still extremely high. He's still a team wrecker.
He's one shotted top tiers... under equal circumstances. He's one-shotted Warlock when Warlock tried to cheap shot him...

They're close, I feel.

However, when it comes to overall scope/scale, I see Magneto being slightly more powerful.

Obviously.
Mags used to want all humans to pay.

Doom only wants revenge on Richards.

Doom's not going to destroy the planet, however, he would destroy Reed.

Hell, when he got Beyonder's powers, his scope, and scale never went past Battleworld.
Mag's scope will obviously be higher, but that doesn't mean he'll be above him.

Doom will f*ck with anyone who gets in his way though.

Originally posted by Jyppe
That one. Yup.

Darkbooger posted scans from that series in Doom's resect thread.
Just look in the post presented...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8956088#post8956088

Originally posted by Jyppe
Wikipedia disagrees with you. Can someone who actually is able to read FF regularly give us some insight?

Doom also possesses a good deal of magic ability which he learned from his time with a secret order of monks in Tibet, as well as knowledge passed on from his magically-inclined mother. He is able to fire blasts of mystical energy from his hands, create protective shields of magical energy, ensnare foes in bands of energy (the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak), and create portals to other planes of existence, such as Mephisto's hellish realm or the Dreamtime of the Australian Aborigines. Doom has also developed the ability to psionically transfer his consciousness into another nearby human being with whom he's made eye contact, a process which he learned from the alien Ovoids. However, Doom prefers his own body and only uses this transference power as a last resort. It has been stated that Dr. Doom is, in fact, next in line for the title of Sorcerer Supreme after Dr. Strange. Though he more or less shunned the mystic arts for scientific pursuits, he recently made a pact with the Haazareth Three, a group of demons who amplified his powers greatly so he could kidnap Franklin and Valeria Richards, simultaneously imprisoning the FF and Doctor Strange to prevent them interfering with his schemes.


Apologies if I was wrong.

EDIT - BadAsh. What was the latest turn of events, concerning Apoc? Is he still "paying" back his loan to the Celestials?

I don't give a flying **** if Wikipedia disagrees with me.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people disagree with Jubilee being more powerful than Nate Grey, but Wikipedia still claims she is. Just an example of how utterly wrong Wikipedia can be.

Talisman trumps Doom any day of the week.

Originally posted by Bransolute
Mag's scope will obviously be higher, but that doesn't mean he'll be above him.

Doom will f*ck with anyone who gets in his way though.

So will Mags.

And yes I do believe Magneto is above Doom, if only slightly.

i believe there's 3 votes now for Luthor to A+ compared to one...

Originally posted by batdude123
So will Mags.

And yes I do believe Magneto is above Doom, if only slightly. Doom f*cked with Mags when he opposed him. Even let Mags live.

I don't... at all. Especially if you're only basing this on scope.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Im For - Black Adam, Apocalypse and Luthor.

DC
I nominate Cyborg for A+
I nominate Major Force for B or A
I nominate Despero for A
I nominate Eclipso for A+

Marvel
I nominate Mr. Sinister to A
I nominate Red Skull to A or B