An ex-muslim woman speaks out (this one's for you, ushomefree).

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Zeal Ex Nihilo
2wPglHZQf-0

Fatima
The Sheikh respons :



X8n-a-6HBb4

Zeal Ex Nihilo
That video is made of fail for a number of reasons.

1. I don't care what the Pope did. I'm not Catholic. Also, "pronouncing a curse" on someone is a lot different than blowing oneself up on him.

2. To characterize the Pope's actions--the Pope from the MIDDLE AGES, no less!--as representing all of Christianity is erroneous.

3. It doesn't matter what Christians do; it doesn't negate the woman's claims.

4. Ibn Rushd's position in the Renaissance has nothing to do with anything--Rushd's work doesn't address the claim of the clashing worldviews. Furthermore, to suggest that Europe would have remained in the Dark Ages without Muslim scholars is ridiculous.

5. La Reconquista is called "the Reconquest" for a reason--Ferdinand and Isabella were retaking land initially conquered by the Moorish invasion.

6. The "fate the Native Americans" has nothing to do with the woman's claims. Yet another red herring.

7. He claims that there are TV channels in America that have no purpose save to attack Islam. One: provide proof of this or he's full of shit. Two: I don't care. That's part of the freedom of speech, not that he would understand that concept.

8. "Bush, the biggest extremist and terrorist in history"? Fail statements are fail.

9. Bushitler exterminated an entire nation? Is this guy on crack?

10. He claims that Islam was an ally of the West when Afghans were fighting the USSR. Have you heard the phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

11. When Thatcher says what he does about Communism and Islam, why does he say it?

12. The "extremist Western Zionist Christianity" is warring against Islam? Try again.

13. The reason that Israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons--assuming the Sheikh's claims are true--is because we know that Israelis aren't going to strap nukes to their chests and blow the hell out of a bunch of people at a bus station.

Crimson Phoenix
Well you cant refute the fact that muslims where the catalyst for the Renaissance. They had a very advance civilistion compared to the european middle ages at the time.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Yes, they used to. It is a good thing that they did, too, because it helped Europe so much. However, the video is still fail.

ushomefree
Zeal Ex Nihilo--

The video was excellent; I agreed with everything the woman had to say. And the Muslim philosopher fails to address issues stressed in the first video. It reflects just how indoctrinated Muslims are--at least fundamentalist Muslims. The "Sheikh," as Fatima labeled him, never waivers--no shame; no embarrassment.

Fatima
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
That video is made of fail for a number of reasons.

1. I don't care what the Pope did. I'm not Catholic. Also, "pronouncing a curse" on someone is a lot different than blowing oneself up on him.

2. To characterize the Pope's actions--the Pope from the MIDDLE AGES, no less!--as representing all of Christianity is erroneous.

3. It doesn't matter what Christians do; it doesn't negate the woman's claims.

4. Ibn Rushd's position in the Renaissance has nothing to do with anything--Rushd's work doesn't address the claim of the clashing worldviews. Furthermore, to suggest that Europe would have remained in the Dark Ages without Muslim scholars is ridiculous.

5. La Reconquista is called "the Reconquest" for a reason--Ferdinand and Isabella were retaking land initially conquered by the Moorish invasion.

6. The "fate the Native Americans" has nothing to do with the woman's claims. Yet another red herring.

7. He claims that there are TV channels in America that have no purpose save to attack Islam. One: provide proof of this or he's full of shit. Two: I don't care. That's part of the freedom of speech, not that he would understand that concept.

8. "Bush, the biggest extremist and terrorist in history"? Fail statements are fail.

9. Bushitler exterminated an entire nation? Is this guy on crack?

10. He claims that Islam was an ally of the West when Afghans were fighting the USSR. Have you heard the phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

11. When Thatcher says what he does about Communism and Islam, why does he say it?

12. The "extremist Western Zionist Christianity" is warring against Islam? Try again.

13. The reason that Israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons--assuming the Sheikh's claims are true--is because we know that Israelis aren't going to strap nukes to their chests and blow the hell out of a bunch of people at a bus station.



I never gave my point of view about what she said, because I do not really care about her words. I just posted the reply to let the viewer aware of the case.Clearly ,she was very successful in getting the media attention, now look she is the defender of the west and a hero.

Due to the fact that her eyes almost fall out of her narrow minded head, she is very far away from the truth...but is fully loaded with hatred. That s it.

She has to be educated in history, but not history american style...real history .

inimalist
Long live Abu Jahl

(thats right, put camel intestines on the backs of prostrate muslims)

lord xyz
I don't like Islam, but all this war stuff is bullshit. The terrorist stuff in the middle east is close to non-existant, and even if it was, what the **** are they going to do?

SpearofDestiny
I find it funny when two religions, which are so similiar, argue over whose religion is better. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I find it funny when two religions, which are so similiar, argue over whose religion is better. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I think Islam and Christianity should merge, you know, like Texaco and Chevron did. Lets call it......Chrislam.

It would have almost 4 billion members and they would both be agnostic on the issue of Jesus' divinity...you know, to reach a compromising middle ground.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I find it funny when two religions, which are so similiar, argue over whose religion is better. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Oh, you mean like when the Protestants were fighting the Catholics?

Those are a little more similar. Then again, Christians aren't the ones blowing themselves up.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Oh, you mean like when the Protestants were fighting the Catholics?

Those are a little more similar. Then again, Christians aren't the ones blowing themselves up.

There were a number of suicide bombers in Ireland.

No, the Christians aren't the ones blowing themselves up. They're blowing up other people, and claiming they have God behind them. Doesn't make the six o'clock news in this part of the world, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Oh, you mean like when the Protestants were fighting the Catholics?

Those are a little more similar. Then again, Christians aren't the ones blowing themselves up.


Like Devil King said, Christians aren't blowing each other up, but they are doing a great job of blowing up men, women, and children in other countries.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
They're blowing up other people, and claiming they have God behind them. Doesn't make the six o'clock news in this part of the world, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Stopping murderers is a good kind of thing.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Stopping murderers is a good kind of thing.

Unless you become collateral damage.

lord xyz
And lets not forget those Jews, they're the ones doing it aswell.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
And lets not forget those Jews, they're the ones doing it aswell.

And the Brits.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And the Brits. We're victims. mhm

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
We're victims. mhm

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Stopping murderers is a good kind of thing.

Not if it means becoming one, much less abandoning the principles of your own religion to do it.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
Not if it means becoming one, much less abandoning the principles of your own religion to do it.
War is not murder.

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Stopping murderers is a good kind of thing.


Poor Logic thumb down


You don't have to murder to prevent murder. There are other ways to prevent violence and murder.


Would you cure Cancer by causing more Cancer ?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
War is not murder.

zeal. i dont usually refer to people like this. definately not you. but stop acting like a ****ING moron, and shut your ignorant mouth about things your brainwased little head, knows nothing about.

just because the western media is playing the role of brainwasher to the masses doesnt mean all the bs it spews is true. selctively portraying events/suggestibilty/linear perspectives etc have made even the most respectable new channels like bbc/cnn into tools of mass brainwashing.

america{as an organisation/party} is doing more to destroy the world than any thing the muslims can dream of. 2.5 percent of iraq's population is OFFICIALLY dead while unofficially, figures are usually 7-15 times that high. bush is an fn christian extremist head of state who is a war criminal and puts anything and everything usama bin laden cud do to shame. america{not necessarily americANS} is actively funding genocides indirectly in many parts of the world as it has done in the past. not to mention trying to economically "rob" the world's recources{its not alone in this though. to a much lesser extent, all superpowers follow the example. russia/china/india etc} through unfair market practices and causing destabilisation. it is covertly causing much unrest in iraq and using money as a way to set up puppet governments which **** up countries{i shud know, i live in one}.

its like colonialism, only in a hidden form. doesnt mean the american public is generally bad. they are just brainwashed and do not know any better{ofcourse there will be many exception}. but facts are facts, american is the single most detrimental force to world stability there is and causes more suffering directly or indirectly than all the terrorists in the world can combined.

doesnt mean islam is right. it just means its not any worse than christianity or tyrranical superpowers. specially one that has more blood on its hands than any1 else right now.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
War is not murder.

yes it is .

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Poor Logic thumb down


You don't have to murder to prevent murder. There are other ways to prevent violence and murder.


Would you cure Cancer by causing more Cancer ?
Last time I checked, Saddam Huissein wasn't interested in therapy.

Of course, last time I checked, he was dead.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
zeal. i dont usually refer to people like this. definately not you. but stop acting like a ****ING moron, and shut your ignorant mouth about things your brainwased little head, knows nothing about.
Oh, leonheartmm, if only you took your own advice. Of course, you'd have to stop posting in the Religion forum, but that's a small price to pay, isn't it?

Dude, I'm totally brainwashed. Totally.

Really? And how many did Saddam kill? What percent died under his regime, and what percent would have died were his legacy to continue?

Dude. Like, totally. Bushitler totally is worse than everyone. He's got extremism total written above his bed.

And that would be considered "wrong."

Cite sources or it's bullshit.

Yes, because I'm so terribly brainwashed that I couldn't point out the hypocrisy of the United States originally funding Osama bin Laden.

Really? Would you like to demonstrate a statistical analysis of this?

Worse than Christianity...? What's your point, Sheikh? We aren't talking about Christianity, you know.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
War is not murder.

much less abandoning the principles of your own religion to do it.

anaconda
yeah unlike the christians roll eyes (sarcastic) roll eyes (sarcastic)

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
much less abandoning the principles of your own religion to do it.
God has been fond of war in the past. I am doubtful that He has changed His views.

Does that mean we're to glory in war? No, but to accuse Christians of "abandoning their principles" in fighting in war is erroneous.

Here's a fun fact: John describes Jesus as being the "Word" of God. Some theologians interpret this to mean that Jesus was the one communicating with man in the Old Testament. Therefore, Jesus was the one commanding the Israelites to slaughter and kill.

Oh, snap.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Devil King
There were a number of suicide bombers in Ireland.

Just to clear this up- no there were not.

anaconda
guess the fuse didnt work then roll eyes (sarcastic) many bombs there but they were remote controled

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Last time I checked, Saddam Huissein wasn't interested in therapy.

Of course, last time I checked, he was dead.



So what ever happened to:


"Turn the Other Cheek"

"Thou shalt not kill"

"Treat others as thou wish to be treated"



Does that only apply sometimes ? erm

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
So what ever happened to:


"Turn the Other Cheek"

"Thou shalt not kill"

"Treat others as thou wish to be treated"



Does that only apply sometimes ? erm
If you take verses out of context from the Bible without looking at the whole, then, yes, it would appear that war is against Christianity.

anaconda
laughing out loud yeah the always victimized christian, never responible for any conflict at all roll eyes (sarcastic)

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by anaconda
laughing out loud yeah the always victimized christian, never responible for any conflict at all roll eyes (sarcastic)
Why don't you learn to read English a little better?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Last time I checked, Saddam Huissein wasn't interested in therapy.

Of course, last time I checked, he was dead.

Oh, leonheartmm, if only you took your own advice. Of course, you'd have to stop posting in the Religion forum, but that's a small price to pay, isn't it?

Dude, I'm totally brainwashed. Totally.

Really? And how many did Saddam kill? What percent died under his regime, and what percent would have died were his legacy to continue?

Dude. Like, totally. Bushitler totally is worse than everyone. He's got extremism total written above his bed.

And that would be considered "wrong."

Cite sources or it's bullshit.

Yes, because I'm so terribly brainwashed that I couldn't point out the hypocrisy of the United States originally funding Osama bin Laden.

Really? Would you like to demonstrate a statistical analysis of this?

Worse than Christianity...? What's your point, Sheikh? We aren't talking about Christianity, you know.

cockiness and ignorance, matched with a hint of arrogance.

how very blind you are.

Nellinator
Originally posted by leonheartmm
cockiness and ignorance, matched with a hint of arrogance.

how very blind you are. Sounds like fail imo.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Nellinator
Sounds like fail imo.

roll eyes (sarcastic) . lending a zealot brother an undeserved hand ? cmon, even you should know better.

none of what he said was anything better than a smartass jab.

inimalist
Originally posted by leonheartmm
roll eyes (sarcastic) . lending a zealot brother an undeserved hand ? cmon, even you should know better.

none of what he said was anything better than a smartass jab.

ummmm, war ISN'T murder...

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
cockiness and ignorance, matched with a hint of arrogance.

how very blind you are.
Okay, JIA.

(LOL C WHAT I DID THRE? I called you JIA because you avoided everything I said.)

lil bitchiness
Form her appearance on TV, till now she has had numerous death threats - her move was brave, and should be celebrated.

Theo Van Gogh paid with his life for speaking against Islam, and she took the same step, regardless the risk.

Melcórë
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
War is not murder.

Uh....actually, that is exactly what war is - "justified murder," to be exact.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
If you take verses out of context from the Bible without looking at the whole, then, yes, it would appear that war is against Christianity.

Uh....alright, how would you interpret the (IMHO) rather forthright teachings of the Christ?

BTW: Gah....I'm too tired to express my thoughts on the subject.

inimalist

Melcórë
Originally posted by inimalist
killing, yes, murder, no

"murder" is a legal term defined relative to the state which passes the law. "Justified murder" then becomes an oxymoron or moot, given that the justification for a murder is either irrelevant, or in the case of a murder in self defense, it changes the term. For instance, rarely will you hear it referred to as "murder in self defense".

This isn't a moral stand, this is a technical linguistic stand. It does no good to call war murder, since every other use of "murder" is incompatible with the nature of war. Much like how capital punishment is not technically murder.

Is "murder" not qualified through "intent to kill"? That was where I was coming from....and by "justified murder," I then meant "intent to kill to protect one's nation, culture, etc."....although I s'pose it was a rather....foolish way to word things?

As I said....I don't feel like articulating my thoughts on the subject right now, and may thus appear incoherent or....well, not well-developed with regards my opinions.

inimalist

Melcórë
Originally posted by inimalist
LOL, no, murder is the unlawful act of killing (plus whatever legalese follows). When a state goes to war, the killing is no longer unlawful. There are many other considerations, but that is pretty much the big one.

I do understand the argument you are making, you are just using the wrong words. Its excusable because it is the same language that certain intellectuals use to talk down to the public and stifle proper debate, much like the "meat is murder" or "religion is child abuse" memes.

So, in other words, I have a completely wrong take in what legally constitutes murder? LOL! laughing out loud

*Goes out and buys a copy of the Criminal Code* stick out tongue

BTW: "Excusable"?....Not at all....I was basing my opinion on (pretty much) my assumptions alone, which someone should never do.

BTW2: I certainly hope I don't argue in such a degrading and truly unintellectual manner....but it wouldn't surprise me, since (truth be told) I don't really care what people on the internet think of my opinions, and I'm thus likely to post biased/inarticulate/"wrong" statements....

inimalist

Nellinator
Originally posted by leonheartmm
roll eyes (sarcastic) . lending a zealot brother an undeserved hand ? cmon, even you should know better.

none of what he said was anything better than a smartass jab. No, you just ignore the post because your assertions have no base in reality. Hence, you = fail.

Nellinator
Originally posted by inimalist
LOL, no, murder is the unlawful act of killing (plus whatever legalese follows). When a state goes to war, the killing is no longer unlawful. There are many other considerations, but that is pretty much the big one.

I do understand the argument you are making, you are just using the wrong words. Its excusable because it is the same language that certain intellectuals use to talk down to the public and stifle proper debate, much like the "meat is murder" or "religion is child abuse" memes. In interest of this, the Hebrew language of the Bible does clearly distinguish between the two just as we do today. Different words for different intents.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
roll eyes (sarcastic) Hehe, yeah. I know Britain ****ed the world aswell. But then came WW1, and we tagged America.

Zeal Ex Nihilo

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Nellinator
No, you just ignore the post because your assertions have no base in reality. Hence, you = fail.

tis easy for a person on the sidelines to say who might never have suffered the consequences of america's/israel's actions, not to mention, has a conveniently nice faith in the goodness of his relegion and the goodness of his country.

its nothing but a convenient lie so that you do not have to worry or feal guilty about the sorry state of affairs in the world outside your little utopian reality.

but words are cheap, that is sumthing i have learnt. people will use fallcious and lengthy debating tactics to go to any lengths to rationalise their close minded/wrong pooint of view. unless a person actually has any desire to be open minded/curiosity about truth outside dogma, then it is useless to talk. {jia being a testament, an lately, other beleivers/patriots i have met/talked with}.

Alliance
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
1. I don't care what the Pope did. I'm not Catholic. Also, "pronouncing a curse" on someone is a lot different than blowing oneself up on him.

Just as you fail for failing to see distinctions within the Islamic religion.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Would you cure Cancer by causing more Cancer ?

You're the biggest retard on the forums.

And YES, (food for your barren mind), radiation therapy DOES induce the formation of secondary neoplasms, as do many chemotheraputic agents.

Nellinator
Originally posted by leonheartmm
tis easy for a person on the sidelines to say who might never have suffered the consequences of america's/israel's actions, not to mention, has a conveniently nice faith in the goodness of his relegion and the goodness of his country.

its nothing but a convenient lie so that you do not have to worry or feal guilty about the sorry state of affairs in the world outside your little utopian reality.

but words are cheap, that is sumthing i have learnt. people will use fallcious and lengthy debating tactics to go to any lengths to rationalise their close minded/wrong pooint of view. unless a person actually has any desire to be open minded/curiosity about truth outside dogma, then it is useless to talk. {jia being a testament, an lately, other beleivers/patriots i have met/talked with}. So you have nothing. I expected as much. Your debating tactics involve only rhetoric. Therefore, they are not viable.

Furthermore, you make more false claims and incorrect assumptions. I think my country is crap and going down the tube. Furthermore, I have invested interest in what goes on outside my own country, and my life is anything but an utopia, but thanks for playing.

Devil King
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just to clear this up- no there were not.

That is not what I had heard. However, I can't find anything on the web to substantiate my claim. Perhaps I should not have taken the Irishman's word for it.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
God has been fond of war in the past. I am doubtful that He has changed His views.

Does that mean we're to glory in war? No, but to accuse Christians of "abandoning their principles" in fighting in war is erroneous.

Here's a fun fact: John describes Jesus as being the "Word" of God. Some theologians interpret this to mean that Jesus was the one communicating with man in the Old Testament. Therefore, Jesus was the one commanding the Israelites to slaughter and kill.

Oh, snap.

Okay. That's pretty weak. If you want to discuss god changing his mind, it can only be viable in regards to what he last said. I don't recall the verse where Jesus supported war...or murder. Your logic that god does/did change his mind doesn't speak very well to the claim that he is all-knowing and timeless. If god says one thing to one group of people, and means it at the time, and says another thing to another group of people, and means it at the time, then it's prefectly logical to assume that all religous disagreements are baseless. (Which they are) That would mean that god is to those people what they need him to be. And if God changes based on the needs of the people with which he's communicating, then god would be all things to all people. So, the concept of god is either flawed, or the fictional work of the people who worship him.

and let's get to the real subject of what I said: The number of christians in positions of power that abandon their religious "principles" when no one is looking or no one finds out about it. There is nothing erroneous about that.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Alliance
Just as you fail for failing to see distinctions within the Islamic religion.
"Distinctions within the Islamic religion" has little relevance. I was rebutting Fatima's/the Sheikh's claims that "oh noes XTIANS R EVIL let's go kill some jews, k?".

At first, I thought this was directed at me, and I was annoyed. Then I saw it was directed at Urizen, and I laughed. Everyone's gotten so bitchy lately.

Of course, to be fair to Urizen, he was asking if I would purposely induce cancer in healthy subjects in order to experiment on them so that I could cure cancer in other subjects.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Nellinator
So you have nothing. I expected as much. Your debating tactics involve only rhetoric. Therefore, they are not viable.

Furthermore, you make more false claims and incorrect assumptions. I think my country is crap and going down the tube. Furthermore, I have invested interest in what goes on outside my own country, and my life is anything but an utopia, but thanks for playing.

no. i have a lot. but you will simply deny it based on that fact that these things do not happen in front of YOU, and based on the western medias{reguardless if its fox or bbc} version of the incidents which are taken as authentic. the things i have are hidden well on the international level, even if it is blatant truth at the national level.

right now, i am living in a country under martial law. where the right of gathering as well as all human rights are suspnded. where all of the opposition{thousands of people in high political posts} is in jails along with a few other family memebers. the courts have been dismissed as has the constitution. lawers are beaten up and jailed, human rights activists are beaten up and jailed{all by the police/rangers}.

telephones/cell phones/internet was completely cut for a day. ALL private news channels are unable to show. their owners/employees are threatened by kidnapping etc as well as laws which STOP them from reporting anyuthing detrimental to the government{among many MNAY other thigns}

all so that america's *****, musharraf can stay in power and slaughter thousands uponm thousands of his country men{men women and children} under the name of taking actions against TERRORISTS, in the war against terror. not to mention slaughter his army men too in the cross fire. remember the red mosque mister know it all, i live right infront of it. and if you had seen the things governments do to little children and teachers just to please america and kill "TERRORISTS" , youd loathe yourself for being an american{that i can ASSURE you}.

but ocourse, how can i make you beleive any of that, when the western media reports the number of deaths as between 108/180 when infact over 1800 children are OFFICIALLY confirmed dead here? as you can see, i shall have very little to offer you since you simply do not KNOW what the world is going through.

americas controls/manipulates half the world with corrupt politicians/puppet governments. {last time i checked, musharraf was given an over 4 billion dollar payoff in cash in his swiss bank acocunt. and that is just ONE which was found out among manty MANY other things. same with our other dear lady, benazir, 1.7 billions dollar payoff in her swiss bank account. ofcourse, the means of knowledge that you have will never state these facts}.

so keep living in your nice little world calling other people's claims false. your country is NOT going down anything yet, it is surviving pretty well economically on all the resources it drains from the rest of the world.{ofcourse, SOCIALLY its another thing}
{now be a nice american and call me a deluded conspiracy theorist who does not have the statistics/figures to back up his claims and go n have a nice self righteous nap}

Zeal Ex Nihilo
How do you know that you're not a victim of your country's own propaganda?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
How do you know that you're not a victim of your country's own propaganda?

erm, MAYBE, because my country{as far as the government and state media goes} ADORES america. maybe because its openly letting america use it as a base to bomb the crap out of afghani civilians{actually been there and seen it} maybe because its rather happy calling all poor humans living in certain regions as terrorists, maybe because its media is very much pro america? maybe because my country's propaganda is PRO west. its only private news channels which report this stuff. fortunately i happen to be living in/going to a lot of the places where i can verify it first hand{or maybe because as luck wud have it, i happen to find myself in situations at the time when its actually HAPPENING, so no verification is required}

Nellinator
Originally posted by leonheartmm
no. i have a lot. but you will simply deny it based on that fact that these things do not happen in front of YOU, and based on the western medias{reguardless if its fox or bbc} version of the incidents which are taken as authentic. the things i have are hidden well on the international level, even if it is blatant truth at the national level.

right now, i am living in a country under martial law. where the right of gathering as well as all human rights are suspnded. where all of the opposition{thousands of people in high political posts} is in jails along with a few other family memebers. the courts have been dismissed as has the constitution. lawers are beaten up and jailed, human rights activists are beaten up and jailed{all by the police/rangers}.

telephones/cell phones/internet was completely cut for a day. ALL private news channels are unable to show. their owners/employees are threatened by kidnapping etc as well as laws which STOP them from reporting anyuthing detrimental to the government{among many MNAY other thigns}

all so that america's *****, musharraf can stay in power and slaughter thousands uponm thousands of his country men{men women and children} under the name of taking actions against TERRORISTS, in the war against terror. not to mention slaughter his army men too in the cross fire. remember the red mosque mister know it all, i live right infront of it. and if you had seen the things governments do to little children and teachers just to please america and kill "TERRORISTS" , youd loathe yourself for being an american{that i can ASSURE you}.

but ocourse, how can i make you beleive any of that, when the western media reports the number of deaths as between 108/180 when infact over 1800 children are OFFICIALLY confirmed dead here? as you can see, i shall have very little to offer you since you simply do not KNOW what the world is going through.

americas controls/manipulates half the world with corrupt politicians/puppet governments. {last time i checked, musharraf was given an over 4 billion dollar payoff in cash in his swiss bank acocunt. and that is just ONE which was found out among manty MANY other things. same with our other dear lady, benazir, 1.7 billions dollar payoff in her swiss bank account. ofcourse, the means of knowledge that you have will never state these facts}.

so keep living in your nice little world calling other people's claims false. your country is NOT going down anything yet, it is surviving pretty well economically on all the resources it drains from the rest of the world.{ofcourse, SOCIALLY its another thing}
{now be a nice american and call me a deluded conspiracy theorist who does not have the statistics/figures to back up his claims and go n have a nice self righteous nap} Ermm, I find it hard to loathe myself for being an American.

leonheartmm
do you find it hard to loathe the political/social/military "organisation" called america{disreguarding the geography/citizens} in so far as its actions towards the world are concerned?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, MAYBE, because my country{as far as the government and state media goes} ADORES america. maybe because its openly letting america use it as a base to bomb the crap out of afghani civilians{actually been there and seen it} maybe because its rather happy calling all poor humans living in certain regions as terrorists, maybe because its media is very much pro america? maybe because my country's propaganda is PRO west. its only private news channels which report this stuff. fortunately i happen to be living in/going to a lot of the places where i can verify it first hand{or maybe because as luck wud have it, i happen to find myself in situations at the time when its actually HAPPENING, so no verification is required}
What's your country?
Originally posted by Nellinator
Ermm, I find it hard to loathe myself for being an American.
Because, as it turns out, you're Canadian.

(What a **** he be.)

anaconda
well technically Canadians are Americans as well, they just not Yanks

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Yeah, but we both know that's not what he meant.

anaconda
do we?

leonheartmm
that is how much attention youve been paying while actually READING my posts.{explains a lot as i can see that u werent reading my previous posts at all}.

if you were reading, youd hear the word "musharraf" in ther sumwhere wudnt u zeal? theres also the word "president" in there sumwhere, now piece it all together.{god help u if u havent gotten it}

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Yes, we do.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
How do you know that you're not a victim of your country's own propaganda?

That's the pot calling the kettle...

Originally posted by Devil King
Okay. That's pretty weak. If you want to discuss god changing his mind, it can only be viable in regards to what he last said. I don't recall the verse where Jesus supported war...or murder. Your logic that god does/did change his mind doesn't speak very well to the claim that he is all-knowing and timeless. If god says one thing to one group of people, and means it at the time, and says another thing to another group of people, and means it at the time, then it's prefectly logical to assume that all religous disagreements are baseless. (Which they are) That would mean that god is to those people what they need him to be. And if God changes based on the needs of the people with which he's communicating, then god would be all things to all people. So, the concept of god is either flawed, or the fictional work of the people who worship him.

and let's get to the real subject of what I said: The number of christians in positions of power that abandon their religious "principles" when no one is looking or no one finds out about it. There is nothing erroneous about that.

Alliance
Originally posted by leonheartmm
no. i have a lot. but you will simply deny it based on that fact that these things do not happen in front of YOU, and based on the western medias{reguardless if its fox or bbc} version of the incidents which are taken as authentic. the things i have are hidden well on the international level, even if it is blatant truth at the national level.

right now, i am living in a country under martial law. where the right of gathering as well as all human rights are suspnded. where all of the opposition{thousands of people in high political posts} is in jails along with a few other family memebers. the courts have been dismissed as has the constitution. lawers are beaten up and jailed, human rights activists are beaten up and jailed{all by the police/rangers}.

telephones/cell phones/internet was completely cut for a day. ALL private news channels are unable to show. their owners/employees are threatened by kidnapping etc as well as laws which STOP them from reporting anyuthing detrimental to the government{among many MNAY other thigns}

all so that america's *****, musharraf can stay in power and slaughter thousands uponm thousands of his country men{men women and children} under the name of taking actions against TERRORISTS, in the war against terror. not to mention slaughter his army men too in the cross fire. remember the red mosque mister know it all, i live right infront of it. and if you had seen the things governments do to little children and teachers just to please america and kill "TERRORISTS" , youd loathe yourself for being an american{that i can ASSURE you}.

but ocourse, how can i make you beleive any of that, when the western media reports the number of deaths as between 108/180 when infact over 1800 children are OFFICIALLY confirmed dead here? as you can see, i shall have very little to offer you since you simply do not KNOW what the world is going through.

americas controls/manipulates half the world with corrupt politicians/puppet governments. {last time i checked, musharraf was given an over 4 billion dollar payoff in cash in his swiss bank acocunt. and that is just ONE which was found out among manty MANY other things. same with our other dear lady, benazir, 1.7 billions dollar payoff in her swiss bank account. ofcourse, the means of knowledge that you have will never state these facts}.

so keep living in your nice little world calling other people's claims false. your country is NOT going down anything yet, it is surviving pretty well economically on all the resources it drains from the rest of the world.{ofcourse, SOCIALLY its another thing}
{now be a nice american and call me a deluded conspiracy theorist who does not have the statistics/figures to back up his claims and go n have a nice self righteous nap}

You know, many Americans don't like how America is handling itself either.

Devil King
Originally posted by Alliance
You know, many Americans don't like how America is handling itself either.

LIES!

Everyone knows that America is a democracy, and that each and every descision made by it's leaders are exactly what the citizens want.

Alliance
I've been brainwashed....sad

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo

Originally posted by Nellinator
Ermm, I find it hard to loathe myself for being an American.

Because, as it turns out, you're Canadian.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e384/super_hottie_2/sock.jpg

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e384/super_hottie_2/sock.jpg
You know, I was actually thinking on how you gave up that schtick...but then you posted the picture of the sock again.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'"


God has not changed His mind, and God has not changed what He has said. Rather, God has planned everything in order to save man from his sins; the Law was for atonement until the perfect sacrifice was made. At the time of this perfect sacrifice, humans were released from the Law's strict regulations and under the grace of God.

That's probably true.

Nellinator
Originally posted by leonheartmm
do you find it hard to loathe the political/social/military "organisation" called america{disreguarding the geography/citizens} in so far as its actions towards the world are concerned? Not really. It's pretty easy actually.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You know, I was actually thinking on how you gave up that schtick...but then you posted the picture of the sock again.




God has not changed His mind, and God has not changed what He has said. Rather, God has planned everything in order to save man from his sins; the Law was for atonement until the perfect sacrifice was made. At the time of this perfect sacrifice, humans were released from the Law's strict regulations and under the grace of God.

That's probably true.

May I have specific chapters and verses, please?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Devil King
May I have specific chapters and verses, please?

You would just interpret it wrong. stick out tongue You have to have the holly spirit in you in order to understand the bible. A satan follower, like your self, could never understand the bible.

At least that is what "they" think, but they will never tell you. big grin

Nellinator

Devil King

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Devil King
Probably not.

I asked for the specific chapters and verses where -->Jesus<-- called for war and murder. If you don't have those specific chapters and verses, there's no need to post a response. Given the fact that there's not one single word or verse or rule or suggestion written by Jesus, the likes of Paul and other followers will have to suffice. However, the only New Testament verses you list are from Romans and Hebrews, and doesn't address the opinion of Jesus, at all...only Jewish entitlement.

Jesus could not write, at least that is how it looks. Because nothing he wrote has survived.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Devil King
Probably not.

I asked for the specific chapters and verses where -->Jesus<-- called for war and murder. If you don't have those specific chapters and verses, there's no need to post a response. Given the fact that there's not one single word or verse or rule or suggestion written by Jesus, the likes of Paul and other followers will have to suffice. However, the only New Testament verses you list are from Romans and Hebrews, and doesn't address the opinion of Jesus, at all...only Jewish entitlement. It really sounded like you were asking for a reasoning for:



The closest Jesus said would be :

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
-Luke 12:51-53

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Jesus could not write, at least that is how it looks. Because nothing he wrote has survived.

Shaky....there is a passage in the new testament in which it says that prior to Magdalane getting stone. Jesus wrote something in the sands. He knew how to write.

Remenber that sometimes written records of a person aren't alway necessary to prove his/her existance. Take Socrates for example. All we know of him came from Plato and Aristotle.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Jesus could not write, at least that is how it looks. Because nothing he wrote has survived. So He could read really well and memorize the entire Torah (at minimum), but not write? Seems doubtful.

WrathfulDwarf
I agree there Nellinator. I think he also knew the Greek language. Which was the equivalent of English in our modern world.

Devil King
Originally posted by Nellinator
-Luke 12:51-53

No, I'm trying to find justification, in the "words" of Jesus, that condone murder and war.

Verses 51-53 seem, to me, to be addressing standing up for your faith against all odds or detractors. But I see nothing about murder or starting war, much less the notion of superiority of that faith being a viable reason to commit murder or instigate war for profit.

Edit: I can't imagine Jesus being able/unable to write is at all relevant.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
So He could read really well and memorize the entire Torah (at minimum), but not write? Seems doubtful.

Sorry for getting off topic, but reading and writing are two different things. Most educated people, of the time when Jesus was alive, could read, but they could not write. Writing was reserved for scribes. Writing is far more difficult then reading, or even speaking or reading multiple languages.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sorry for getting off topic, but reading and writing are two different things. Most educated people, of the time when Jesus was alive, could read, but they could not write. Writing was reserved for scribes. Writing is far more difficult then reading, or even speaking or reading multiple languages. Umm.. Rabbi's could all read and write both Hebrew and Greek at a minimum. Jesus quoted mostly from the Septuagint indicating his knowledge of Greek and also from the Masocretic texts showing knowledge of Hebrew. Reading at that level is always hand-in-hand with writing. In current lower grade education the way we teach kids to read is by getting them to write. They are nearly inseparable.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
May I have specific chapters and verses, please?
Matthew 10:34-36.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Matthew 10:34-36.

Everything I've read about this is that it speaks towards expecting persecution, but that if one gives into the temptaion that persecution brings, they won't get into heaven.

One site said this:

But I haven't seen anything that states that Jesus called people to commit murder and start wars.

Nellinator
Why would he?

Devil King
Originally posted by Nellinator
Why would he?

That's a question for Feceman. He's the one that stated the verse was meant to imply that Jesus supported war and murder.

Nellinator
I don't think he really did, but we'll see.

Devil King
Originally posted by Nellinator
I don't think he really did, but we'll see.

"He" Jesus, or "he" Feceman?

Because it's all in the thread for everyone to see.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
That's a question for Feceman. He's the one that stated the verse was meant to imply that Jesus supported war and murder.
I believe that Nellinator is referring to me saying that.

I don't agree with the interpretations that you say that you've read--bringing a sword certainly seems warlike to me. Furthermore, I'm not saying that Christ said that we ought to start wars--even God does not like killing; in Ezekiel 18:21-23, God says, "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"--but I am saying that Christ would support armed conflict.

And, no, Christ would not support murder--"murder" not being equivalent to "killing"--although he would support justice.

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live... But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
Umm.. Rabbi's could all read and write both Hebrew and Greek at a minimum. Jesus quoted mostly from the Septuagint indicating his knowledge of Greek and also from the Masocretic texts showing knowledge of Hebrew. Reading at that level is always hand-in-hand with writing. In current lower grade education the way we teach kids to read is by getting them to write. They are nearly inseparable.

There is one problem with what you are saying; then why were there scribes?

Also, were are all the writing of Jesus? If Jesus was god, then he would have been able to write, and would have written things down. After all, god wrote the ten commandments. Why did Jesus not written anything other then a few words in the dirt?

Nellinator
Because the process of writing was meticulous and had/has a long Rabbinical tradition.

I wouldn't be surprised if He wrote more. And it's likely that He didn't have time to write much, just like His disciples, Jesus was constantly moving and doing.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
Because the process of writing was meticulous and had/has a long Rabbinical tradition.

I wouldn't be surprised if He wrote more. And it's likely that He didn't have time to write much, just like His disciples, Jesus was constantly moving and doing.

Or he did not have the money for scrolls, or he just wasn't a scribe.

Nellinator
He wasn't scribe, He was a Rabbi.

Not having the money is a definite possibility I hadn't thought of.

leonheartmm
zeal, war = mass murder. the acts of war are not justified , simply because "its war". armed comflict is a great evil.

oh, n this discussion is useless. the bible is a selective compliation of gospels made by constantine and the like , which only chose the books which were in accodance with their beleifs{paul included} and discarded every other record as heresay. furthermore, most of it isnt even the words or teachings of christ. a very small percentage, {the red letter bible} even has a CHANCE {assuming the author didnt make it up or misquote it} of being the authentic word of the man, yeshua. and ironically, it doesnt say much at all about christianity's most orthodoxed beleifs like trinity, or jesus being the son of god, or redemption through his soul dying for their sins or the rapture etc etc. so i dont think u guys will get anywhere with this.

its all down to faith.

anaconda
doing his disciples?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Well you cant refute the fact that muslims where the catalyst for the Renaissance. They had a very advance civilistion compared to the european middle ages at the time.

That was then this is now.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by anaconda
doing his disciples?

cmon now, by all acounts, if jesus existed. he seems like a good man. smile hes not responsible for creating christianity u see. thats paul.

Alfheim
Originally posted by leonheartmm
cmon now, by all acounts, if jesus existed. he seems like a good man. smile hes not responsible for creating christianity u see. thats paul.

thumb up

anaconda
so?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
zeal, war = mass murder. the acts of war are not justified , simply because "its war". armed comflict is a great evil.
Really? You sure about that? It might just be "mass self defense."

Trinity is based on exegesis; other beliefs are based on what Christ's disciples wrote down because they didn't copy Jesus word-for-word on all of his teachings.

Furthermore, some of the discarded books of the Bible have been proven to be forgeries, and those that didn't agree with the rest of the Bible would not be considered to be divinely inspired. Ergo, they don't belong in the Bible.

anaconda
yeah but still those rejected ones could be much closer to the truth than the ones that was accepted as scripts of the bible/nt

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And, no, Christ would not support murder--"murder" not being equivalent to "killing"--although he would support justice.

Justice? And who is defining "justice"? What would constitute "justice" in this case?

If Jesus popped up today, in that part of the world, who would he see forcing people off their land, forcing another people to live as second-class citizens?

anaconda
a kind of quid quo pro

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
Justice? And who is defining "justice"? What would constitute "justice" in this case?

If Jesus popped up today, in that part of the world, who would he see forcing people off their land, forcing another people to live as second-class citizens?
I think Christ would "tsk, tsk" against man's futile attempts to restore a divine covenant.

Devil King
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I think Christ would "tsk, tsk" against man's futile attempts to restore a divine covenant.

With interest to not totally dismissing your reply as rhetoric, could you use specific examples of what you mean?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Devil King
With interest to not totally dismissing your reply as rhetoric, could you use specific examples of what you mean?
Deuteronomy 30:1-10

God gave the Israelites the contested land in the Middle East, and He promised to return them to it once they returned to Him. By supporting Israel, we are trying to return the Israelites to their land without them returning to God--we are acting as though we have divine authority in this matter.

leonheartmm
"mass self defence"? lmao! thats a good one. really u shud be a right wing speach writer. there no SUCH THING! its just word play to jusitify mass murder.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
You ought to be a left-wing speech writer.

Actually, you ought to be a left-wing mouthpiece, as your grammar indicates that writing isn't your strong suite.

leonheartmm
as your personality indicates that etiquettes/logic/humbleness arent a part of yours. smile

personal attacks are silly, not to mention , an indicater of inability to argue on rational grounds.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
LULZ PERSONAL ATTAQUE

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
LULZ PERSONAL ATTAQUE

untrue. it was free and sincere advice on how to financially exploit your god given talents smile

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