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He taaes them on like Dooku did.

YkXpMrfi_5g

Idk much about anakin as of AOTC but i think bane tools him

Bane wins.

Bane kicks the crap out of him.

Bane RAPES them...and then kills them, cause he's sick like that

Bane. know why? 2 words. THOUGHT BOMB

Do you know that bane would need several other sith lords and much time in order to do a thought bomb right?

Originally posted by kamhal
Do you know that bane would need several other sith lords and much time in order to do a thought bomb right?

Bane still takes it because he has a comparable attack which doesnt take as much time

Since when?

Originally posted by Captain REX
Since when?

read about bane, when he was a kid he tapped into the dark side of the force to give his abusive father a heart atack

Originally posted by Man of Christ
read about bane, when he was a kid he tapped into the dark side of the force to give his abusive father a heart atack

Right. And non-Force-sensitive-father = two skilled Jedi. Try again.

It depends. I don't know much about Bane, but are his skills comparable to Tyranus', or is he weaker or stronger?

Originally posted by Gideon
Right. And non-Force-sensitive-father = two skilled Jedi. Try again.

right and two jedi who as of that time hadnt been prepared for that type of attack. Try again.

Still, a simple man doesn't compare by any means to a Jedi Master and one of the strongest padawans of the Order. How could you possibly make such comparrison or even try to create an arguement? :/

Originally posted by Man of Christ
right and two jedi who as of that time hadnt been prepared for that type of attack. Try again.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
by AOTC kenobi was a knight and not a master. and darth bane by no means was simple. do some research on him then come back and tell me how "simple" he was.

I was referring to his father, not to him.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
by AOTC kenobi was a knight and not a master. and darth bane by no means was simple. do some research on him then come back and tell me how "simple" he was.

Oh well. But Bane also isn't Dooku.

Really. Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi the Order produced in his entire history. Fact. He was also one of the most skilled duellist the Order had ever produced. Another fact. And then he received more than a decade of one of the - if not the - most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Bane compares how exactly? Essentially he's somebody who had some years of actual force and lightsaber training in comparison to the eight decades the Count studied in the same fields.

And yet Dooku, while being superior to Kenobi and Anakin without doubt, did benefit from the fact that Anakin decided to rush him and was taken out of the fight for several minutes (apparently). So Dooku just had to deal with Kenobi first. Yet the Count still needed to take a deep breath after he defeated Anakin. So I doubt that was a piece of cake for Dooku there.

Now if Anakin does the same against Bane I'm fairly sure that the Sith Lord will take both Jedi out. If they work together from the beginning of the fight on, it might get a little bit tricky for Bane. He might very well still defeat them both but I seriously doubt this would result in either "owning" or "raping" them.

Anakin and Obi-Wan lose...but its not a curbstomp by any means. their ROTS incarnations on the other hand are a very different story.

So is Bane superior to Dooku or no?

I don't think so...

I would assume that as well from what I know of Bane. He seemes smart and cunning, but I'm not sure if he could best Lord Tyranus.

However, I don't know too much about Bane, and I have a friend with a major hard on for him who says he could probably defeat Sidious. I was under the impression Sidious was the strongest Sith ever, and that Palpatine could curbstomp Bane. Anyone with a decent knowledge of the rule of two's creator care to enlighten me?

Im not sure but it would be an interesting fight I think I remember a thread from a while ago in which Dooku was determined the the victor. But do not quote me on that maybe it should be done again soon considriong there is a new bane book coming out in late december.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
I would assume that as well from what I know of Bane. He seemes smart and cunning, but I'm not sure if he could best Lord Tyranus.

However, I don't know too much about Bane, and I have a friend with a major hard on for him who says he could probably defeat Sidious. I was under the impression Sidious was the strongest Sith ever, and that Palpatine could curbstomp Bane. Anyone with a decent knowledge of the rule of two's creator care to enlighten me?

Sidious is the strongest sith ever. This actually being argued in the sidious vs sion thread. Gahlaktus has posted several quotes supporting it. And Gideon gets props giving some posted on it aswell. And I think we will need a new Bane vs dooku thread soon.

Originally posted by GahLakTus

Right
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Now thanks to gideon for these

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84


Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72

Thanks for the infor on Palpy. Back to Bane, how does he stack up against the Sith Lords from the prequel and original trilogy?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Thanks for the infor on Palpy. Back to Bane, how does he stack up against the Sith Lords from the prequel and original trilogy?

Bane vs Dooku or Vader would very close and go either way for me personally. But Bane beats Maul. And no problem on the info the credit goes to Gahlaktus and Gideon since they provided the quotes.

Bane would tool this duo and Dooku in seconds. Not only is he one of the smartest force users and fighters there is, he's an incredibly skilled lightsaber duelist, extremely strong with the force, and possesses armour that is virtually indestructible, with only a few gaps in the joints, and stopping at Bane's neck.

He's beyond Sidious for sure.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Bane would tool this duo and Dooku in seconds. Not only is he one of the smartest force users and fighters there is, he's an incredibly skilled lightsaber duelist, extremely strong with the force, and possesses armour that is virtually indestructible, with only a few gaps in the joints, and stopping at Bane's neck.

He's beyond Sidious for sure.

Apparently everything in the Star Wars universe says you're wrong in this belief.

Jesus Christ, I can see that I might have to stay up all night making a pro-Sidious novel.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jesus Christ, I can see that I might have to stay up all night making a pro-Sidious novel.

Nah... He's not worth it. Nobody who talks nonsense like that deserves a decent reply, Gideon.

Oh Really? Given his pure status within the force (Sith Chosen One), the fact that his power was described as far greater than that of the entire Brotherhood of Darkness, and his showings (which I'll get on to) I'd say Bane is clearly the more powerful of the two.

Take for instance his near complete destruction of Ruusan. He was able to quite simply absorb the power of the other then current BoD Masters in the form of lightning (which puts to shame Corran Horn's gift of energy absorption), which he partially was taking forcefully, so that he could focus their entire combined power into himself (remember that Bane's force powers was stated as being far greater than that of the entire BoD, which would consist of all of these mentioned Masters + more) and unleash their power by himself. Now, rather than be consumed by such a level of power (which was described as being able to consume anything and everything in its path, and would have destroyed the whole of Ruusan if the Sith Masters had stuck with the ritual), he was able to fully harness it, and rather than lose control over it, he was able to direct it on a planet wide scale.

Or, of course, you could consider his BotS incarnation, which grows in power heavily, to the point where he's able to nudge the moon Dxun towards Onderon for a pretty considerable distance.

Now, factor in his fighting smarts, as well as his orbalisk armour, and the fact that he was able to contend with Kas'im, possibly the greatest swordsman ever up until his time on even terms in saber combat, and you have Bane destroying Sidious.

He's likely on par with the Luke Skywalkers of the SWU, and he's clearly beyond Sidious.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Bane would tool this duo and Dooku in seconds. Not only is he one of the smartest force users and fighters there is, he's an incredibly skilled lightsaber duelist, extremely strong with the force, and possesses armour that is virtually indestructible, with only a few gaps in the joints, and stopping at Bane's neck.

He's beyond Sidious for sure.

Oh god, honestly...hasn't Palpatine being the strongest ever been proven beyond reasonable doubt like a zillion times in these forums. I'm tired of noobs coming here and blabbering on about random crap and misinformed opinions. I refuse to argue it, someone just link to one of the like 200 threads where it has been proven because its really annoying and tiresome to keep saying, and reading, the same stuff over and over and over. Palaptine is the strongest Sith who ever , live with it, deal with it, move on.

You refuse to argue it, because you can't. As always, you'll enter a thread, post an opinion, and leave. Now go home, and take your broken fingers with you.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Oh Really? Given his pure status within the force (Sith Chosen One), the fact that his power was described as far greater than that of the entire Brotherhood of Darkness, and his showings (which I'll get on to) I'd say Bane is clearly the more powerful of the two.
/B]
Is he more powerful than the duo? Certeinly, concerning the issue of the "BOD" ill refute that

"Bane recognized him as one of the lesser students from the Academy on Korriban: so weak in the Dark Side, it wasn't even worth learning his name." pg276

These are the kind of JOKES that are made DARK LORDS.

Oh and remember the masters claiming the strongest of the academy are sent to worlds like ruusan? There you go

The Sith students on Korriban were supposedly the best of the best, yet most were made Lords after MONTHS of training just to fill numbers

Githany a Jedi Knight after a few months is promoted to Lord.

Most of the Sith were cannon fodder that were easily killed by CHILDREN swinging lightsabers like monkeys. Source? Jedi vs sith and before you go on rambling "but it is now non canon!", only certein parts have been RETCONNED whereas the battle of ruusan still took place thus backing up what i have just POSTED

They were all subservient to Kaan a petty, narcissistic lunatic with a force ability to influence people.

Revan alone held more knowledge then their ENTIRE Academy


Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Now, factor in his fighting smarts, as well as his orbalisk armour, and the fact that he was able to contend with Kas'im, possibly the greatest swordsman ever up until his time on even terms in saber combat, and you have Bane destroying Sidious. Contend with kasi'm? Last i recall the only thing which kept bane from getting his ass raped was that he memorised all of kasim's sequences and he simply saw a set of forms and knew how to counter them. Now, what happened when kasim used a different style which followed a different sequence? He got owned.
In turn his only thought his running away trying not to get his head cut off.

That is NOT a definition of skill. Hell Kas'im even told him NOT to rely on set's of forms and memorizing.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

He's likely on par with the Luke Skywalkers of the SWU, and he's clearly beyond Sidious. Lol, on par with luke skywalker, a demi god who could swing his saber until it looks like he is holding 20 and carve through thousands of vong warriors. Go on.

Do you like live on KMC Galactus? I don't think there's been a time where I've been on and you haven't.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Do you like live on KMC Galactus? I don't think there's been a time where I've been on and you haven't.

Weren't you whining to Darth Hord on another thread that he was being "rude and offensive"? And you opt to do it here in the same breath? Bullshit. Do it again and I report.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
You refuse to argue it, because you can't. As always, you'll enter a thread, post an opinion, and leave. Now go home, and take your broken fingers with you. He refuses to argue because you ignore and defy canon, the same thing you did on your previous accounts nebaris.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Do you like live on KMC Galactus? I don't think there's been a time where I've been on and you haven't.

I should ask you the very same question neb, do you live in KMC? Seeing you sock and get banned about 10 times and refusing to accept the fact that nobody here wants you posting in this forum.

Your acting like a child whos begging his mother to let him back in the house after getting kicked out 10 times.

bla bla bla and he's clearly beyond Sidious.

"The Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, their numbered in the accordance with the tradition set by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these sith was Darth Sidious..."- The Darkside Sourcebook

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
You refuse to argue it, because you can't. As always, you'll enter a thread, post an opinion, and leave. Now go home, and take your broken fingers with you.

Urgghh....It was people like this ^^^ that made me leave these forums like 6 months ago and not come back for a while. I'm seriously considering it again. I'll be honest, I got tired of justifying myself over and over to random noobs who refuse to even listen to anything anyways, its just wasted effort. Facts and reason have little influence on the likes of people like this. I applaud people like Gideon who somehow have the strength and motivation to say the same crap over and over to fact-less opinionated noobs who don't even listen to what you say...I dunno how you do it man.

Originally posted by kamhal
bla bla bla and he's clearly beyond Sidious.

"The Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, their numbered in the accordance with the tradition set by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these sith was Darth Sidious..."- The Darkside Sourcebook

'When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith'

^That's the proper quote, and it proves nothing that weakens my case. When it's stated that "The most powerful of these sith was Darth Sidious," there is no indication given that it's referring to the entire Ro2 Order rather than the two current members, meaning, at best, it proves that Sidious is more powerful than Darth Maul...

In fact, it doesn't even prove that, because in this context, "power" is quite clearly not personal combat power, given his manipulation skills and political knowledge are considered as some of his greatest weapons, not exactly anything to do with combat.

True, the quote is ambiguous, because "these" can either be talking about all bane's order or simply sidious and maul. None the less, this is only one of the quotes that proves Sidious as the strongest sith ever. Besides, did you notice that this was the only quote which you tried to properly answer?

Incorrect, Omega (and continuing to subscribe to such logic further proves, as each day passes, that you are Nebaris. You quoted him verbatim).

Courtesy of Publius:




The most impressive feats of the Imperial Sith -- such as Naga Sadow's cruiser causing major stellar catastrophes -- were wholly dependent on the use of artifacts and talismans (hence the ease with which Exar Kun was able to master Sithian magic, to say nothing of completely unskilled practitioners like Satal Keto, Aleema, and the Krath). They were invariably seen wearing such magical accouterments. Any given display of preternatural abilities is tainted by the fact that the Sith Lords were actively using Sithian magic, which required no effort at all to use (The Freedon Nadd Uprising).

It is worth pointing out that although Sidious is not known to have used any such arcana when performing his own feats of Force mastery, he was exceptionally well-versed on dark side lore and was a known master of Sith magic (the Dark Empire Sourcebook notes that he had long ago mastered the knowledge of the Krath, who were strictly Sith magicians). He was an accomplished alchemist and is known to have been in possession of a number of ancient Sithian artifacts, as well as having traveled to several of the 'holy sites' of the Imperial Sith (Drommund Kaas, Vorzyd V, Yavin IV, Ziost, and Korriban). He was familiar with their methods -- and generally did not use them.

It is not enough to merely assert superiority and then expect to be disproven. One has an obligation to provide evidence to support one's claims. There is no reason to believe that an of the Imperial Sith were more powerful than Darth Sidious. If one is to claim otherwise, one is of course required to provide clear evidence. If specifically comparing physical abilities, then one must be able to cite discrete incidents.



Prove it. His ability to manipulate others and his understanding of galactic politics is listed as "perhaps" his greatest weapon, and does not exclude his combat skills.

Publius?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Publius?

Yessir. No one I have encountered can compete with that man.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yessir. No one I have encountered can compete with that man.

I have to ready it a few times to fully understand him. Is this the article that you mentioned a while back that would destroy any pro-ancient sith arguement?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have to ready it a few times to fully understand him. Is this the article that you mentioned a while back that would destroy any pro-ancient sith arguement?

Yessir.

Not incorrect, no, and I thought you'd drop this whole trying to prove that I'm Nebaris mission you guys are on? Please don't go back on your word.



Who are you quoting from? Whoever it is, s/he is wrong, and is the one being willfully ignorant of the English Language.

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two.

There are two interpretations of what the "these" refers to.

1. This is essentially your approach, where you treat the "Sith" as the entire millennium old Order as what the "these" refers to, with the text that appears afterwards as simply describing into detail the current Sith, though not placing the focus onto them.

This is certainly a valid interpretation behind it, but not the only one.

2. This is essentially mine, where I'd conclude that the "these" refers to the then current two Sith Lords.

a) "When the Sith finally emerged" - quite clearly referring to Sidious and his apprentice, Maul.

b) "from a thousand years of watching and waiting" - not necessarily meaning that the emerged Sith themselves had been watching and waiting for thousands of years, but that they finally revealed themselves after such an amount of hiding and waiting had taken place, in this case clearly on part of the Ro2 Sith as a whole.

c) "they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two." - again, going back to describe the then current two Sith, rather than the entire Order as a whole.

Essentially, to interpret that the "these" might refer to the current two Sith is a valid approach, as long as the burden of proof isn't on me, which it isn't.

As for the rest, that's another topic in itself which I have no interest with arguing right now.



I probably should have elaborated more, but when I said that power, in this case, wasn't personal combat power, I meant that it wasn't solely personal combat prowess. I wasn't, and wouldn't deny that it was inclusive, on some level, of such power, given the quote makes a direct reference to his power in the darkside. But, it makes a bigger reference to his intellectual qualities, which would indicate that power, in this case, would include the non martial aspects as well.

To further add to the argument for Sidious is this from the star wars databank on Yoda .



And this is by ROTS not DE.

You've only demonstrated that as considerable as your grammar and English prowess is, you don't compare to Publius. He's right. The "after a thousand years of waiting" clearly refers to the Order as a whole.

Yes, but what Publius is saying is that the entire focus of the first sentence being on the then current Sith Master and Apprentice would be incorrect, because then we'd also have to assume that they had been watching and waiting for a thousand years, when that's simply not the case. The "from a thousand years of watching and waiting" doesn't necessarily mean that the watching and waiting was done on the part of the specific Sith in question, just that the two Sith emerged after a thousand of years of watching and waiting had taken place (in this case on the part of the Ro2 Sith Order as a whole).

Although the modern era of the Sith is attributed to Darth Bane, and the Dark Jedi that preceded him, - the Sith (e.u). section on the star wars databank.

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times-from the Palpatine (e.u.) section of the star wars databank.

Sidious IS >Bane

The modern era of Sith =/= modern times. That's the fundamental point that disproves your argument, and the fundamental point that you're missing, though I will say those were some nice observations.

Given that Bane's passing essentially marked the point in time where the Republic and Galaxy no longer believed themselves threatened by the Sith (in the TPM novelisation, Mace Windu mentions that since the fall of Bane, the Sith had been extinct, meaning the Jedi must have come into contact with him), and it marked an era of peace from the darkside, Bane can be considered not a part of the modern times that the Movies explored.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
The modern era of Sith =/= modern times. That's the fundamental point that disproves your argument, and the fundamental point that you're missing, though I will say those were some nice observations.

Glad you like the observations
From dictionary.com

era --period of time marked by distinctive character, events, etc.:

time--a period in the history of the world, or contemporary with the life or activities of a notable person: the period or era now or previously present. furthermore a synonym for era is time(s).

Never heard of prehistoric times or prehistoric era, time of the dinsoaurs-era of the dinosaurs. Same meaning

They have the same meaning here. Seeing as how one could be switched for the other. The notable person or distinct character here is Bane and the period is the time (or era) of the sith



Except for the last part is your opinion of mdern times. Which seems to be to more of a real world description of time being a 1000 years is a longer period to us than in the star wars galaxy

And to support that times and era can be used for the exact same thing and be interchangeable based on the grammar and the structure of the sentence and I will do it with your statement.


It marked a time of peace from the darkside

I wasn't claiming that there would be a difference in the meanings of 'times' and 'era,' I'm saying that the Sith's modern era isn't the same period as what would be considered modern times. As you yourself point out, the meaning of "modern" generally differs with how much time has passed, and given that the Sith had only been around for several millenia, whereas time itself was millions of years old, the meaning of "modern" for the two periods would differ.

As for claiming that what I said was just an opinion, sure it was, but a valid one, and what I'm essentially saying is that you can't prove that Bane would belong to what is referred to as the modern times. As long as the burden of proof isn't on me, valid opinion is fine on my part. I'm essentially pointing out the holes in your argument.

Point is, you can't prove that Bane belongs to the modern times that are mentioned, meaning those quotes prove nothing.

Edit - Also, even if none of that were true, a word like "modern" is very ambiguous in meaning, given the number of interpretations of what is modern, and how you would judge it. For instance, one might consider science the factor that separates what is modern or not, whereas others might consider the factor to be art. A word like "modern" isn't always necessarily going to be used in the same way.

You are right the word "modern" is ambiguous and the sith era and time of the galaxy is vastly different. And we could go for along "time" or for an "era"

But I been wondering for a while now why you have this belief that sidious is not the most powerful when there are many canon quotes(I personally have about 12 quotes to support it) that support the consensus, while you may argue what the meaning is there quotes are still canon while every other sith lord has no canon quotes that say they are the most powerful sith lord ever? Wouldn't seem based on the quotes in sidious's favor and there 0 zero quotes for any other sith lord that the writer's (who's work have lucas's seal of approval) have the same thing in mind. I mean you can try to interpret them anyway you like but the main points of the quotes still have wors like Sidious,most powerful,sith,ever in the same sentence me anything to you.Like it seems with some quotes you try to get the technical terms and read deep inside them for what would seem to be a loophole. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but rather than I am trying to a getter a better perspective on where you are coming from.

A precise observation that has me flummoxed as well. It's not that I disapprove or despise that you disagree with the canon-approved consensus that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever (God made the "enlightened decision" to grant us all the ability to speak our opinions), rather than the logic behind it. You've yet to provide a single shred of proof that any Sith Lord is above Sidious -- especially when any one of us can use the "absence of proof" clause to sweep that aside -- and rather prefer to try to attack the canon-approved quotes with the ambiguity card or use double standards. I don't play like that.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
You are right the word "modern" is ambiguous and the sith era and time of the galaxy is vastly different. And we could go for along "time" or for an "era"

But I been wondering for a while now why you have this belief that sidious is not the most powerful when there are many canon quotes(I personally have about 12 quotes to support it) that support the consensus, while you may argue what the meaning is there quotes are still canon while every other sith lord has no canon quotes that say they are the most powerful sith lord ever? Wouldn't seem based on the quotes in sidious's favor and there 0 zero quotes for any other sith lord that the writer's (who's work have lucas's seal of approval) have the same thing in mind. I mean you can try to interpret them anyway you like but the main points of the quotes still have wors like Sidious,most powerful,sith,ever in the same sentence me anything to you.Like it seems with some quotes you try to get the technical terms and read deep inside them for what would seem to be a loophole. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but rather than I am trying to a getter a better perspective on where you are coming from.

To be honest, I just don't like Sidious... like one bit, otherwise I probably wouldn't look for ways to disprove these quotes, but the fact of the matter is, that these quotes aren't conclusive, not one of them, and imho, you have other Sith who display greater power, being the more powerful Ancients, Nadd, Exar, Nihilus, Sion, and Bane, and of course Darth Caedus. Don't get me wrong, Sidious is extremely powerful, and the next most powerful Sith after those that I mentioned, imo, but those Sith, as well as some Jedi (well two actually: Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron) as well as some beings that belong to neither group (UnuThul, Lomi Plo, Sekot, and Lord Nyax) are clearly more powerful based on evidence on hand.

Personally, I think Sidious' ability to cloud the force on a scale where all Jedi had difficulty seeing through it speaks volumes. As does his lightning attack that wiped out hundreds of Stormtroopers. His knowledge of the force is certainly immense, as well, as was his power given it had reached a stage where it had become too much for his body to contain properly. He's very powerful, and also near definitely the greatest Sith to ever exist. But he's not the most powerful Sith to ever exist, given the evidence we have, and I think it's silly that the entire forum pretty much views it as an undeniable fact.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
To be honest, I just don't like Sidious... like one bit, otherwise I probably wouldn't look for ways to disprove these quotes, but the fact of the matter is, that these quotes aren't conclusive, not one of them, and imho, you have other Sith who display greater power, being the more powerful Ancients, Nadd, Exar, Nihilus, Sion, and Bane, and of course Darth Caedus. Don't get me wrong, Sidious is extremely powerful, and the next most powerful Sith after those that I mentioned, imo, but those Sith, as well as some Jedi (well two actually: Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron) as well as some beings that belong to neither group (UnuThul, Lomi Plo, Sekot, and Lord Nyax) are clearly more powerful based on evidence on hand.

Personally, I think Sidious' ability to cloud the force on a scale where all Jedi had difficulty seeing through it speaks volumes. As does his lightning attack that wiped out hundreds of Stormtroopers. His knowledge of the force is certainly immense, as well, as was his power given it had reached a stage where it had become too much for his body to contain properly. He's very powerful, and also near definitely the greatest Sith to ever exist. But he's not the most powerful Sith to ever exist, given the evidence we have, and I think it's silly that the entire forum pretty much views it as an undeniable fact.

I wouldn't say that aren't conclusive such as these ones.



They are all from canon sources(NeC,DSB,star wars databank,DES etc.) and if they were not intended to mean what they would have been been deemed noncannon further it makes sense that all of these quote exist for him and state such while they are nonexistent for any other sith. It seems if Lucas did not agree with the statement he would have not let them be published or he would have stated that they are not canon. But since he did not it is only logical to assume that they are in fact canon and conclusive > Besides wouldn't make sense that the main antagonist from the movie is more powerful than eu characters that are from other authors. No matter how much you dislike Sidious you can't deny that Sidious has the quotes that back to back him up while no other sith have anything similar stated about them. Believe I am not Sidious's biggest fan nor will I ever will be but I do not deny that there are canon quotes that say he is the "most powerful sith lord in history" No loopholes were even suggested by the authors when they were made like you saying "oh that is just political power" because where some of them are mentioned there is no reference to politics near them. And if you do keep this up then there will a few of who will be their argue.

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:-"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Neither of those quotes exist -- I actually have both sources on my PC in PDF format and I just used the search function, and neither quote exist in the mentioned sources.

If Galactus is the one who originally claimed that these statements were made, well, he strikes me as the type to lie on this forum, and this would seem especially likely given how similar the two quotes are. I mean seriously, they're both essentially the same claims; the only difference being the two clauses are at the opposite pats of the sentence, and the wording is slightly different. It's a blatant lie.

"...Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

NEC is in-universe, and thus subject to being inaccurate. The statement isn't coming from an Omniscient Narrator, but is basically an opinion from a Historian within the SW universe. Not canon, just an in-universe opinion.

As for most of the quotes in general, I'm not actually arguing the canonicity of them (exception being the NEC), but the meaning in the quotes, not to mention that GL claims not to even read most of the EU, so he'd hardly be looking out for random quotes and declare them non-canon. It's not exactly uncommon for EU to differ with GL's vision - the Sith themselves heavily contradict GL's vision of Darth Bane being the original Sith.

As for Sidious being a key character in the main SW story, that really doesn't mean anything. I'm sure some might like to consider him the most powerful Sith ever, based on that alone, including writers and GL himself, but based on Canon evidence, a case can't really be absolutely argued.

Also, for the record, this quote makes a direct reference to Papatine's political knowledge, intellect, and manipulation ability, and even labels the qualities as his weapons:

'When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith.'

BTW, out of curiosity, let's say we ignore these quotes and such, and base everything on showings; would you still consider him the most powerful Sith Lord in history? Of course, taking into account that the Force Storm can't be applied in a one-on-one scenario, can be used by Freedon Nadd and the Ancient Sith, and doesn't speak for a being's power in the force.

It's clearly the message LFL wants to send. The fact that he's succeeded where every single other Sith failed seems to make it pretty evident that the dark side was with him in ways it wasn't with others.

That would make for an interesting argument, but you really just can't discount the many statements that attribute what Sidious was able to achieve, in part, to the merits of Bane's Rule of Two. Sidious was able to learn from a millennium's worth of Sith teachings and their wisdom, and act off of that as best as he could. Sith like Bane never had such an advantage, and Sith like Nihilus had no such goal in the first place.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
That would make for an interesting argument, but you really just can't discount the many statements that attribute what Sidious was able to achieve, in part, to the merits of Bane's Rule of Two. Sidious was able to learn from a millennium's worth of Sith teachings and their wisdom, and act off of that as best as he could. Sith like Bane never had such an advantage, and Sith like Nihilus had no such goal in the first place.

For the last time Noobaris, every one of your arguments have been defeated. Sidious IS the most powerful sith lord ever with MORE than enough canon sources to name him as such, along with the ancient sith who did the same thing. Now if you want to verbally fellate Bane like you always do, and attribute Sidious' success to the rule of two (which played a smalled part but the real impact had to do with Sidious' personality and power), then I'm going to go one step further and attribute the rule of two to Revan. Without him, Bane wouldn't have figured out shit, so if Bane gets credit, then Revan gets more credit.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
That would make for an interesting argument, but you really just can't discount the many statements that attribute what Sidious was able to achieve, in part, to the merits of Bane's Rule of Two. Sidious was able to learn from a millennium's worth of Sith teachings and their wisdom, and act off of that as best as he could. Sith like Bane never had such an advantage, and Sith like Nihilus had no such goal in the first place.

An interesting argument? Not really. A fundamental theme to Star Wars is the subject of destiny: Sidious succeeded because he was better than those who came before him. Several sources indicate that he was a true nexus of dark side energy, so that's one "advantage". The second advantage is that he was cleverer and more calculating than any of them as well. Trying to credit Bane for Sidious's victory is useless. If so, we'd have to credit Einstein's teachers and inspirations for his advancements in physics. Ultimately, the feats were due to the individual's merit, not the will of the ones they might have learned from. Bane was also a recepticle of dark side knowledge and he couldn't get the job done. Neither could Revan or Ragnos. And as for Nihilus, you'd be amazed at how similar Palpatine truly is to Nihilus.

Originally posted by Gideon
An interesting argument? Not really.

To each his own.



LMAO, if you truly want to bring destiny into this, then you have no argument, given that Bane is quite clearly the Sith's very own Chosen One, the Sith'ari, and as far as the darkside was concerned, he's fully credited with achieving what Palpatine essentially triggered.

Either way, you've in no way substantiated how Palpatine achieving, what he essentially does through intellect, means that the dark side was with him like no other Sith before him. Try doing that.



Your opinion, which is completely lacking in logic.



If you're referring to the "event horizon...darkness beyond darkness...black hole of the force" quote, than that's no different than Revan's "Heart of the Force" quote. Both, are quite clearly metaphors. You wouldn't claim that Revan was a nexus of force energy, so don't do the same with Sidious.



Cleverer, I disagree. Bane's learning rate is displayed as being phenomenal, for instance mastering force lightning in less than an hour, and his destruction of the BoD certainly rivals Sidious' destruction of the Jedi order, the main difference being Bane was able to do it in less than a year rather than having to spend decades like Sidious. Add in his implementation of the Ro2, and I'd say bane's the smartest being explored in SW canon.



As usual, you're missing my point. I said that Sidious' accomplishments were in part due to Bane's Ro2. I didn't say that Bane gets all the credit, no, that's what you're trying to do with Sidious.

Just like with your example; Einstein in no way receives all of the credit, but to deny that he played a part in the advancements today would be ludicrous.



However, you can't deny that Sidious was in a better position to achieve such things than others before him.



LMAO. Bane received a little knowledge from Revan, Nadd and the limited information within the Korriban Academy's archives. This compares to Sidious' millennium's worth of gathered knowledge and wisdom.. how?



Who cares about fecking Revan?



The Ancient Sith actually didn't know the location of the Republic: a huge obstacle that Sidious didn't share.



...I'm sure I would.

Now, back to my point, my reason for bringing him up is because Nihilus cared for one thing, and one thing only: his hunger. Absolutely destroying the Jedi wasn't a goal of his, it just happened to tie in with his actual goal, which was sustaining his hunger by feeding off of large amounts of force energy.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
To each his own.
No see, it's not to each his own because Escape has come up with a logical argument based on pure facts. You have come up with no argument and you base it on, well nothing.




If anyone is the chosen one of the sith, it's Sidious, and as far as credit is concerned, you're a blubbering moron. Bane's teachings only went so far in terms of staying within the rules of the order. The other 90% was attributed to Sidious' power and manipulation. And that 10% should be attributed to Revan, not Bane, so either way you lose.


Except that's what we'e all done, it's what the authors did, and what GL did. The simple fact that you're an idiot in denial has no bearing on our reality.




Says the jackass who has never won a debate, nor will ever win a debate on these forums.




ROFL.. His destruction of at most, a few hundred sith rivals Sidious' toppling of the 25,000 year old jedi order consisting of at leas ta few thousand ? You're definitely stupid. Bane is nowhere near the smartest thing in SW..



Good, then you can give Bane's credit to Revan.



Excuses. If Sidious WAS in a better position, it's because he put himself there.




Irrelevant.

Quit butting in on debates that do not concern you. If you wish to have a conversation with me, reply to my post in this thread.

As your superior in every way, shape, and form, I have every reason to butt in and embarass you further, in hopes that you cease posting.

This entire diatribe you posted is the epitome of bullshit, Nebaris. You defy the standards I set before you on a daily basis. As if the constant deception about your identity isn't pathetic enough, you resort to using the equally horrific double standard as your primary line of defense? Bullshit. I don't debate like that and I won't debate with someone who does. It's asinine, it's immature, and it's a betrayal of what intellect you claim to have. Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, and everyone else who has ever read your arguments reiterate to me how absolutely retarded you are and how frustrated they are that I actually take the time to argue the cases with you. I'm beginning to see what they see.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
LMAO, if you truly want to bring destiny into this, then you have no argument, given that Bane is quite clearly the Sith's very own Chosen One, the Sith'ari,

Bullshit #1:

a.) You've made the claim that Darth Bane is "the Sith's Chosen One!!1!" and you've yet to prove it at all. Hell, all you've managed to do is place him as a mere contender. You haven't provided sources, statements, or events that name him as such, and yet you have the audacity to say that he's "quite clearly" the Sith'ari and that we should universally accept it? Not likely to happen soon.

b.) Tell me, exactly, what being the "Sith's Chosen One!!1!" means, anyways. You've mentioned that he'd be "perfect". Clearly it's a hyperbole since he died without 1.) destroying the Jedi. 2.) destroying the Republic. 3.) died at all.



Tall claim. Prove it, since he clearly didn't achieve half of what the Emperor has done.



I could probably drown you in the canon-approved, pro-Palpatine quotes and statements. The one from the Dark Side Sourcebook works nicely as does this:



Notice how Darth Bane isn't so much as a footnote.



If by "lacking in logic" you really mean "canonically supported in a manner far beyond that of my own", yes, I'd agree.



Except, as the omniscient narrator states, Palpatine is being viewed through "the eyes of the dark side itself".

The eyes of the dark side > a blind, bitter woman.



a.) Sadly, Palpatine accomplished three things: 1.) the destruction of the Republic. 2.) the collapse of the Jedi order. 3.) the establishment of the most powerful military regime in history with himself at its head. Bane's? Ah, yes. He wiped out a couple hundred cowardly Sith Lords and... spent the rest of his life in hiding? Yes, I can see how he compares.

b.) The main difference is that Sidious actually succeeded in something much more impressive.

c.) Ah, yes. The vaunted Rule of Two clearly makes up for any disparity in accomplishments on Bane's part. Shitty logic, Nebaris. It's no wonder people lose patience with you.




As usual, you're not making a point. Sidious gets all the credit because he did all of the work. Hell, Maul, Vader, and Dooku came closer to galactic conquest than Bane.



He played the greatest part, which is why he's Einstein and a household name for genius.



He was in a better position because he was smarter. When you prove that Bane set it up where Palpatine was born emperor of the galaxy or a senator on Naboo or a chancellor of the Republic, we'll talk.



Received a "little knowledge" from Revan and Nadd? Rofl. This suits my argument even better because now you admit that Sidious > Bane in knowledge.



Well, let's see. If we use your logic, Revan created the Rule of Two. Hell, it wasn't even an original concept. Revan came up with the idea, Bane scribbled it down on a holocron and quoted it verbatim. Great Sith indeed.

^ This is why you need to abandon such shitty logic.



Marka Ragnos knew all about the Republic, see the Essential Guide to the Force. This is a Sith Lord who is also fellated for his cunning and intellect, and even he knew -- with their own damn empire -- that they couldn't take on the Republic. Sidious's predicament? He was literally all by his fvcking self in a time when Jedi were dominant. He worked himself up into a position on his own merit and conquered the whole damn thing on his own plans and "brilliant manipulation". So, we know Ragnos (an intelligent and powerful Sith Lord) and his army couldn't get it done, as neither did Revan (an intelligent and powerful Sith Lord) -- who also had an army. Yet Sidious did.



Have you read DE, DESB, or the DSSB? Palpatine's ultimate plans? Guess not. You're mocking out of ignorance and it is most unbecoming.

Raise your game or get the hell out of the court, Nebaris. This some of the slimiest reasoning I've ever encountered and I expected better.

You expected better? Please. Every argument from Noobaris is a carbon copy from the previous one.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:-"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Neither of those quotes exist -- I actually have both sources on my PC in PDF format and I just used the search function, and neither quote exist in the mentioned sources.

If Galactus is the one who originally claimed that these statements were made, well, he strikes me as the type to lie on this forum, and this would seem especially likely given how similar the two quotes are. I mean seriously, they're both essentially the same claims; the only difference being the two clauses are at the opposite pats of the sentence, and the wording is slightly different. It's a blatant lie.

Your a liar, TFN actually has a scan of page 109 and thats where it came from.

Hell ask lightsnake for a scan or if you claim im lieing.

Originally posted by Gideon
This entire diatribe you posted is the epitome of bullshit, Nebaris.

No, the epitome of bullshit, would be you pretending to have, and end up doing, essentially, what you were describing as a Two Wrongs Make One Right fallacy, in our last debate to attempt to hide the fact that you couldn't counter my arguments, nor present your own valid ones. There was a reason why I stopped replying to you in that debate, and it's because your replies were starting to gt so low as to be on Galactus' level. Try to keep them higher this time.



What standards exactly? Not understanding how the burden of proof works? Not understanding the concept of ambiguity? Two things, you, apparently, have no idea about.

Now Gideon, one of the reasons I respect you more than most on here is for your honesty, so please, be honest. The real reason for your evident anger here is because in the matter of days I've pretty much debunked what is according to you two year's worth of Pro Sidious arguments.

Be honest, and I'll continue respecting you.



Again, you've become a broken record. Now you said you'd stop bringing this up, so stop bringing this up. Going back on your word is what's pathetic here.



No, you're beginning to understand that your one and only defence is to pretend, like people such as Darth Sexy, that my arguments are shit and not worth your time. Now please Gideon, honesty is key.



Apparently someone needs to familiarise themselves with Occam's Razor.

The Sith Chosen One aka The Sith'ari was stated to lead the Sith (which Bane essentially did with his knowledge of ritual Lore from Lehon, where he would literally order Kaan around and manipulated the hell out of him, went behind everyone's backs and would assign orders to the Sith Military), destroy them (which Bane essentially did with providing Kaan with knowledge of the thought bomb and manipulating him into using it), and make them stronger (which Bane essentially did with his Ro2).

Bane is the only one shown to apply on all counts.

Descriptions of the Sith'ari include "perfect power," "perfect being," (which, given Darth "with power far greater than that of the entire BoD" Bane's power, would further support him being the Sith'ari) and someone who would break away from what he knew and build things according to his design (which is what he did with the Ro2).

There's also the fact that PoD is all but screaming at you that he is in fact the Sith'ari. It's one of the major themes in the book, and Kopecz already thought that Bane might be that person after just having met him. The Darth Bane series of books are quite clearly telling the story of the Sith'ari, and it's obvious that that person would be Bane.

Bane is the only Sith shown to even come close to being a candidate, and descriptions of his power make him best suited to the "perfect power" type of comments. To assume that he is the Sith'ari is to assume the obvious. To assume that he wasn't is to assume that some completely obscure Sith was able to achieve it all, and also have power on the same level.

In extreme cases like this, in debate, Occam's Razor would dictate that Bane was actually the Sith'ari.



Gideon, this is one of the many reasons why you've been unable to continue the majority of our arguments, and it's because you constantly fail to see the point that's being argued.

You were claiming that Sidious essentially was born with a special destiny, yet as far as destiny was concerned, Bane was credited in a prophecy to achieve what Palpatine essentially triggered the event of.

Palpatine wasn't chosen to do anything, unlike Bane, he was simply the man for the job at the perfect opportunity. He was the trigger; nothing more, nothing less.



Apparently you didn't quite understand what I was saying, otherwise you wouldn't have asked me to prove it, given it's directly stated in canon.

Bane, being the Sith'ari, was prophesied at doing what Palpatine triggered into happening. As far as destinies go, Bane's was the one that was considered special, as as far as prophesies went, Bane was the one credited with what Palpatine "achieved."



Relying on these quotes, and turning this debate into arguing whether Sidious was the most intelligent, or greatest, quite clearly underlies the fact that you know that Sidious is severely lacking in showings of power, and you have no case whatsoever in arguing his personal level of power.

Now, I really though you'd learnt from your mistakes, but apparently not. You really need to realise, Gideon, that there's not one quote that you can provide that I can't prove worthless, and every time it happens, I'm sure more people will slowly be seeing the errors in their irrational belief of Sidious being the #1 Sith McDaddy.

"Powerful enough to return them from hiding"

Now, Gideon, please tell me, what was the power in which Sidious wielded that returned the Sith from hiding? I'll answer for you, it was his manipulative ability, essentially the power of his brain. Now if power, in this sense, were to be referring to personal combat power, than Sidious would have had to have used his personal power to return the Sith from hiding, rather than his brain, given the context, which clearly doesn't make sense.



No, I mean "lacking in logic in the sense that you can't differentiate between someone receiving all of the credit for a particular accomplishment, and part of the credit."



LMAO, self ownage is a wonderful look for you.

Yes, Kreia is blind... meaning she would always look through the eyes of the force. That's essentially what Kreia did, she viewed her regular vision as a distraction when she had had it.

And no, that doesn't change the fact that the quote is a metaphor. Palpatine was clearly a very evil person, even for Sith standards, and the "darkness beyond darkness" makes it clear that in the context of the quote, it's his evil nature, and the darkness within Sidious that is being spoken of.

Yes, and it took him decades to do so. Patience was a virtue that Bane possessed, but he didn't need it in his case.



The number is irrelevant. He displays the same kind of intelligence with his manipulations, where he's able to orchestrate Kaan into destroying the entire BoD.



1. As usual, you're wrong. Mace Windu, in the TPM novelisation, speaks of the Sith being extinct ever since Darth Bane had passed, meaning he would have come into contact with the Jedi.

2. He set up an organisation of Sith that would remain in hiding, an organisation that used that time of hiding to gather Sith knowledge and Sith philosophies for a thousand years to ensure that they would eventually be able to wipe out the Jedi, at their most complacent moment. Bane fully understood the significance behind waiting until the Jedi finally believed the Sith had been gone for good, and then striking at them.



Substantiate the intelligence required to do what Sidious did.

You're ignoring two key details:

1. Sidious had a millennium's worth of gathered knowledge and wisdom of the Sith.

2. It took him decades to do what he did.

Bane, with little help, had a goal, set out to do it, and it took him less than a year, and he did it perfectly.



Accomplishments alone are not indicative of intelligence. Accomplishments, and the circumstances around them are, which is something you don't appear to get.

I'll also take note that you ignored Bane's vast learning rate, which is clearly indicative of phenomenal intelligence.



"People" like to pretend. Sexy, for instance, who you bring up, claims to find me boring, and not worth his time, yet he can't keep himself from trying to have conversations with me. He would appear obsessed in fact.



Well there lies the flaw in your point. Sidious didn't do all of the work. He had help, in the form of a millennium's worth of accumulated wisdom and knowledge. He also required others to fulfill certain parts of his task. He didn't do all of the work, and he doesn't deserve all of the credit. You arguing that cements this weird obsession you've appeared to have with an old man.



Galactic conquest wasn't Bane's immediate goal, meaning this comparison is silly, and Vader and Dooku simply followed their Masters instructions. Maul did... what, btw?



LMAO. You do realise that, in your comparison, Einstein's role was parallel to Bane's, right?

Bane, is credited with what Palps achieves in darkside prophecy, and Palpatine simply acted off of knowledge and wisdom that was gathered through Bane's actions.



Truly hilarious, but no, you can't even substantiate how smart Sidious was, and the fact remains that Sidious had help from all of the knowledge and wisdom that Bane's Order gathered over the millennium that they were active for.



No, as usual, you're missing the connection. I'm speaking more for Sith teachings as in Sith Philosophies and their wisdom. Bane was able to learn from two holocrons' worth of wisdom and philosophy, whereas Sidious was the product of a thousand years of gathered knowledge and philosophy.



Firstly, that wasn't your point. You were, for some reason, bringing Revan into the topic, in a very irrelevant manner, to compare his accomplishments with Sidious. Own up to the irrelevant misdirection and we're super.

Secondly, as you do, you're parroting the beliefs of others without thinking for yourself.

Revan's role in the Ro2 was far more limited than people would make out. All that Revan provided Bane with the knowledge of, was that the darkside was strongest when concentrated in small numbers rather than large, and having more than one apprentice was self defeating because it would present them the opportunity to unite against the Master, meaning that it wasn't always ensured that the strongest would survive.

However, there's far more to the Ro2 than just that.

Bane alone understood the significance behind gathering s much knowledge as the Sith could before striking back at the Jedi.

Bane alone understood the significance behind waiting until the Jedi truly believed that the Sith were extinct before striking back at them.

Bane alone knew to wipe out the BoD, and then implement the Ro2.

Bane alone was credited in prophecy in achieving what Revan in part inspired him to do, and what Palpatine triggered.

^This is why you need to abandon your attempts of defeating my points. It's not something that will ever happen



Apparently, you again, miss the key detail. Sure, Ragnos knew about the Republic, but he didn't have knowledge of how to locate it. Based on the stories he had heard of them, he wasn't sure that his Empire would be able to truly challenge them, and thought that it would be better to be safe then sorry, rather than go out search for the Republic.



Mocking out of ignorance? You're arguing from silence. I have read those sources, don't assume otherwise.

Palpatine's goals aren't in question here, but Nihilus'. Nihilus didn't care about destroying the Republic, or Jedi, so comparing him to Sidious in the sense that you're doing is beyond dumb.



Quit the banter. You're not Advent, so don't try to be her you wanabee woman.

Good god noobaris, it's enough that you're a social outcast in the real world, but it's even worse that you're the laughing stock of every internet forum you frequent. Shut the hell up already, you've been pwned.

Again, you're not wanted in this thread. As I said, if you're that desperate to have a chat, go to this thread.

I'm glad you speak for everybody Noobaris, except for the fact that everybody has acknowledge that you have lost, you can't debate, and you're just taking up space. Give it up, you're an idiot. Try to concentrate on fixing that issue.

Actually Gideon, here's a thought: if you're that sure of Publius' ability to argue for Sidious, why not give him an invite to argue it out here? And I have no wish for our debates to start getting uncivil, so I'll apologize for any hostility on my part, but really, agreeing with people like Darth Sexy, who's clearly a Grade A moron, doesn't speak well for your character.

And Sexy: wow, I'm actually impressed. You were able to wait out a reply for a whole 12 minutes! What happened! Did you decide to sit down again?

If a Grade A moron can out debate you in his sleep as well as in any instance, then what does that make you? As the dumbest person on this forum, I suggest you quit embarassing yourself, as you are so fond of doing on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, the epitome of bullshit, would be you pretending to have, and end up doing, essentially, what you were describing as a Two Wrongs Make One Right fallacy, in our last debate to attempt to hide the fact that you couldn't counter my arguments, nor present your own valid ones. There was a reason why I stopped replying to you in that debate, and it's because your replies were starting to gt so low as to be on Galactus' level. Try to keep them higher this time.

Your insults are recycled from previous arguments under your different accounts, Nebaris. Since you aren't award-winning in your wit or ability to flame, perhaps you should remove them from the equation and stick to the argument? The fact remains that you'll continue to tell me how I am doing things and I'll do the same; you tell me I'm wrong, I tell you you're wrong. You say you've proven your point, I'll say you haven't. It's a vicious cycle, and it's apparent that neither of us is about to change our ways. Yet, also, the fact remains that you clearly haven't -- by virtue of on-panel evidence and canon-approved statements -- proven anything. Why do you think you've had to resort to try to question the validity of the quotes at my disposal? And even then, you haven't managed to undermine them: as "my boyfriend" Publius puts it best, your actions have demonstrated "a willfull ignorance of the English language".



You're proficient with three "forms of defense", Nebaris. 1.) the ambiguity card. 2.) dodging points and asserting opinions without the benefit of proof. 3.) the "absence of proof" clause. These things, at best (which is far from the level you've applied them) could only destabilize my arguments -- not prove your own. So even if you managed to prove me wrong, you haven't managed to prove yourself right. So far, you haven't managed to do either. Not because you're incompetent or stupid (though I would question your common sense and decency) but because you're arguing against canon.



This would be an example of defense number two: asserting evidence without the benefit of support. You've yet to disprove anything. All you've done is repeatedly flash the ambiguity card and tried to wave the absence of proof clause like some unholy banner, expecting canon to bend to your will. It hasn't. All you're continuing to do is assert that you're right and I'm wrong. The difference being: you're all by yourself in that line of thought.



I don't particularly desire your respect. You continue to demonstrate that you're not worth the time, effort, and patience I allotted you. I debate the issues; you use double standards. You attempt to use lies to cover up your identity. It's desperate and it's hypocritical. I tell you this and ask that you stop using such ridiculous tactics, and you resort to bashing.



A broken record? As opposed to an individual who's came to these forums for over a year with a dozen or so accounts in an attempt to assert his non-canon and unsupported dreams? And then has the audacity to lie about it, while using carbon-copied statements and arguments verbatim and referencing users whom he -- if he were telling the truth -- never encountered? Perhaps I have truly underestimated your intelligence.



A liar lecturing about honesty? The farce continues. I'll tell you what, Nebaris, how about you cease being a hypocrite before expecting me to follow your advice?



I'm afraid not. The statement regarding the Sith'ari being a "perfect being" "is clearly hyperbole", since Darth Bane failed to succeed and accomplish the goals of the Sith order. The fact that he failed to achieve any level of immortality or overcome death -- the fact that he nearly died at Githany's hands due to her deception -- debunks the notion that Bane is a "perfect" being. You trying to define perfect as being "an uber Sith" is ridiculous. No one in Star Wars is perfect or has demonstrated a divinity approaching it. Lastly, you've still yet to provide incontrovertible proof that Bane is the Sith'ari. You're merely speculating that he is. Speculation =/= fact.



Continue the majority? What majority? Where have I been "unable to continue" our arguments? I'm sorry, weren't you the one who admitted that you stopped contributing to our other argument (and then proceeded to rattle off some "reason"? I'd ask you for proof, but I've been asking for proof from you about a lot of things and I've yet to be satisfied.



a.) You've yet to prove that Bane is the Sith'ari.

b.) You've yet to prove that the Sith'ari is credited with the goals Palpatine accomplished.

c.) Even if you did succeed in either a.) or b.), the fact that Sidious accomplished them and Bane did not means that he can't be credited for it. He's irrelevant to it.



Prove it.

According to what is canon, Palpatine was destined to succeed. He accomplished the goals of the Sith order, ascended to galactic dominance, and destroyed both the Republic and the Jedi out of his own efforts -- not Bane's.

You've yet to prove that Bane is the Sith'ari and that Bane assisted Palpatine in his galactic conquest. So this is completely irrelevant until such a time you choose to prove it.



Incorrect. I'm managing to prove that Palpatine was all three. The strongest. The smartest. The greatest. You've failed to prove Bane's any of the three.



Prove worthless? Proof seems to be a concept that eludes you. Now, if proof could be directed based off of double standards, deceit, and your constant use of the ambiguity card, you'd come considerably closer to accomplishing your own goals. As it happens to be, however, canon supports me. Not you.



Or that Sidious possessed the power and skill required to remain hidden from the Jedi (which he did) and the intelligence and resources used to manipulate them (which he did) into handing him power over the dark side.



Because I don't subscribe to the idea (bound in perpetual stupidity) that Bane deserves credit for Sidious's accomplishments? Lol.



It's a fashion you've made quite popular with your first dozen accounts.



Kreia's not "seeing through the eyes of the Force" but "using the Force to assist her vision". There's a difference.



The constant repetition of "clearly" this and "clearly" that has yet to prove your argument. Prove it was a metaphor.

Originally posted by Ultra OmegaYes, and it took him decades to do so. Patience was a virtue that Bane possessed, but he didn't need it in his case.

Another example of double standards. Do you actually believe that people will believe this? Palpatine conquered the galaxy. Bane? He murdered a few hundred cowardly, weak Sith Lords.



The number is irrelevant? I lol'd. The number is highly relevant when compared to the scope of Bane's goals and achievements and those of Sidious's. Bane displays high intellect manipulating one man. Palpatine demonstrates a suitably stronger level of patience and mental prowess by conquering two separate governments and ascending to direct power over the institution of his most hated foes.



Prove that it was him and not one of his lineage.



Bane understood that he could not accomplish his goals. His implementation of the Rule of Two (an idea clearly belonging to Revan), does not put him on par with Sidious.



He conquered a galaxy. He manipulated and destroyed two galactic-spanning factions locked in warfare. He dissolved the Jedi Order. He instituted the strongest military regime in galactic history. Palpatine's goals were much more complex and difficult than Bane's murder of a hundred cowardly, weak Sith Lords.



Irrelevant. Bane had similar knowledge from Revan and Sith histories. It puts them on par. The difference is, we can definately credit Revan for Bane's tactics and plans. PoD proves it.



Terrible logic. Palpatine's goal was on a galactic scope. Bane's? Hardly in comparison. My goal? To finish this argument. So, when I accomplish an lesser goal in a shorter amount of time than Bane -- I am automatically greater than him?



Both the circumstances and accomplishments of Palpatine's reign were directly created by him.



No one said he's stupid, Nebaris. Get your head out of his ass. And you dare accuse me of bias, rofl. I'm simply proving Palpatine was smarter and better.



Obsessed with stamping out what he sees as idiocy.



Palpatine's plans were all his. The resources he accumulated through use of pawns and scheming. The credit ultimately goes to him.



Maul, Vader, and Dooku came closer to achieving the galactic seat of power than Bane ever did. And as I said before, if I succeed in accomplishing an inferior goal in lesser time, I'm better than Bane or Sidious if we use your logic.



Based on your false premises, yes.



Wrong. If we use your logic, we can credit Bane's success directly to Revan and -- at best -- Palpatine's belongs to Plagueis.



I've already done so. You've yet to prove that Palpatine received help in conquering the galaxy. Inspiration =/= help. Bane directly received help from Revan.

The rest, I lack time for but it's recycled. I'll address it when I return if you like, but now, I've gotta go. Good luck proving it all, Sith'ari. Until you do so, don't bother replying, because I no longer plan to respond til you meet my expectations by proving me wrong.

Essentially: never.

Wow.. After reading this I'm convinced I haven't seen this kind of denial since high school, from the social outcast groups. They would lie to themselves and tell themselves they're smarter than others when reality points to the complete obvious. Then they would just lose their shit and make fools out of themselves, sort of like Noobaris.

Get it through your thick skull Noobaris. You cannot debate, nor could you EVER debate. Every debate you engage in, you lose. Then you try to tell yourself and everyone else that you've proved some point or outdebated somebody, and people laugh at you. Stop making a fool out of yourself and just refrain from typing, it's embarassing for you. You haven't even come close to debating with Escape and I still wonder why he dodges the fact that you're completely incompetent and tries to give you the benefit of the doubt by continuing a pointless debate with you.

Actually, Ultra Omega`s point that Bane`s order contributed to the Palpatine`s sucess is not without merit. Surely all these previous Sith Lords were contributing to the growing corruption of the Republic and the accumulation of Darkside knowledge. And Bane as the founder of the Order deserves some credit, though of course it cannot be compared to Palpatine doing the job previous Lords were preparing for.

Though I don`t see how it helps- Palpatine is the greatest Sith without any doubt, according to cannon.

Originally posted by Gideon
Your insults are recycled from previous arguments under your different accounts, Nebaris. Since you aren't award-winning in your wit or ability to flame, perhaps you should remove them from the equation and stick to the argument?

Firstly, that's a statement, not a question. Perhaps next time you'll use a period.

Secondly, insults? Clearly you were desperate to include that little line about Nebaris not being championed for his ability to flame, because that wasn't an insult. I wouldn't be talking about logical fallacies if I were to insult you. I was speaking the truth. Try it sometime.



Sure thing, yet the fact remains that I speak the truth and don't care for popular consensus, whereas you'll care more about convincing others than providing a cogent argument.



Yeah, say that all you want; it doesn't change the fact that anybody who's mastered the forever difficult ability to use the search function can quite clearly see that I provide an abundance of proof in every single one of my debates.



Do you... not understand the entire concept of countering someone's points? Here's essentially what's been happening: you make the claim that Sidious is the most powerful Sith there's ever been. You made it, so the burden of proof is on you. You then attempt to prove it, by supplying all of these inconclusive quotes. Surely even you can see that the next step for your opposition would be to address these quotes, no? " had to resort to try to question the validity of the quotes at disposal" because you seem to be under the impression that they alone prove your stance; the stance that I disagree with.



How about bringing your boyfriend here, I'm tired of arguing against someone and not getting a reply back.



Now why exactly do you have such a big problem with that defence? You post quotes, that might appear to prove your point, and pass them off as conclusive... Well then, there's only one defence to that: proving that they're not conclusive aka proving that they're ambiguous.



Dodging points? Another example of your dishonesty; I reply to every single bit of your post, and my replies are parallel to your points.

Dodging points is what you do, with your constant Strawmans and Irrelevant Misdirections.



Sure I do this, as does everyone, when the proof has already been provided before. It's just like when people will just go and claim that Sidious is the most powerful Sith there's ever been; because they feel that the proof has already been provided, and no longer necessary.

BTW, that wouldn't qualify as a defence, at least keep your bullshit consistent if you're gonna choose the dishonesty route.



Which, again, is perfectly valid, and you wouldn't have such a big problem with it if it didn't go against your absurd arguments big time. For instance, in the Sion/Sidious thread, you'll claim that Sidious is more powerful simply because he's displayed more power, despite Sion being able to perform an ability that Sidious can't, and whilst ignoring the fact that Sion hasn't displayed any limitation which can be compared with Sidious's level of power, and the fact that Sidious appears in an abundance of EU material whereas Sion is simply a supporting character for a single video game.

That's what you'd call an in-absolute argument, and the absence of proof "clause" is a perfectly valid defence. Arguing that an absence of proof = proof of the absence, however, would be what you'd call nutcase level logic.

Again, quit whining about perfectly valid defences, just because they go against your irrational methods of thought.



You're still committing the style over substance fallacy, thinking that you can hide the lack of substance of your argument by sounding convincing so others will think you're in the right.

The arguments in question, in which I've used the mentioned defences, have all been in arguments where you've made the original claim, and the burden of proof has been on you. Now, clearly you don't really know what the burden of proof is, so I'll clarify: I don't have to prove jack when the burden of proof isn't on me. Comprende?



You would question my decency? Lol, that was just weird. And no, I'm not arguing against canon, I'm arguing against your limited interpretation of it.



You... do realise that we're not actually debating right now, right? You felt the need to go on some weird monologue, and I just claimed that you were being dishonest. I really don't care for supporting myself out of a debate, so save this for the actual debate Gideon, you wouldn't come out with this shit in a real life argument.



Which essentially disproves the idea that the quotes you provide are conclusive.



No, I really don't expect canon to bend to my will, given I've actually accepted that there's no one interpretation for the majority of these quotes.



Again, lying achieves nothing, as does appealing to the popular consensus.

I'm proving that your argument, that deals with the definitive, is not cogent. If you didn't spend so much time on these monologues, we'd probably have reached that part of our debates by now.



Please Gideon, be real here. We both know that out of everyone here, debating with me has proven the most entertaining and challenging. It's quite clearly why you've been debating with me on the constant since I joined up, and why you came back from what can be seen in your post count as quite the absence.



No, here's what happens: I speak the truth; you try to convince people that you speak the truth.



Resort to bashing? Point out one "bash" directed at you, and I'll give you a e-pat on the back. Until then, please don't talk such bullshit.

Secondly, let's pretend that I am Nebaris. How would lying about my identity be hypocritical? See me telling anyone off for doing the same any time recently? No? Ok then. Desperate? This is what I don't get about you Gideon. The way in which you analyse such things isn't quite on the same wavelength as that of us regular people. Lying about an identity, so as to avoid a ban, is not desperate in any sense of the word. One wouldn't do such a thing because they've lost all hope, which is essentially what being desperate is. Your nutcase level of thought doesn't quite compute.



Again, another example of the odd things you say. You go on one of your rants, essentially telling me that I'm the broken record, and then you finish off with saying that you might have underestimated my intelligence? Really, quite strange.



Hypocrite? No, even if I were Nebaris, I would only be a hypocrite if the lies in question were of the same sort. Lying about a former identity, so as to not get banned, speaks nothing about one's inherent honesty, whereas what you're doing: lying so as to convince others, does speak for it, you big liar.

Nice Strawman. Reply to one minor quote within my argument with an entire paragraph of text, why don't you?

I never said that it wasn't hyperbole, I didn't really say anything about it.

I was just including it within my argument as one of the descriptions of the Sith'ari. I could just as easily remove it, and my point would be in no way weakened.



Just speculation now. Not speculation and supposition?

And again, what you need to understand is that 100% proof is not required in all cases. As I said, given the insanely huge probability of Bane being the Sith'ari, Occam's Razor would have it be as good as a fact in this debate.



I stopped replying to one argument. You've stopped replying to every other, and there's been a lot of other arguments.



Occam's razor would have it be as good as proven in respect to the debate.



Given the Sith'ari, who is Bane, is credited with making the Sith stronger than they had ever been, which only became the case with what Palpatine triggered the event of, he's receiving the credit. Get over it.



The entire concept of indirect results clearly eludes you.



Bane, the Sith'ari, who has been referred to as the Sith's Chosen One, was prophesied to do what Palpatine "achieved." He was the one chosen to do it, he was the one destined to do it; Palpatine was simply the right man at the right time.



No, he isn't. The Sith had simply been waiting for someone to fulfill his role. palpatine was that person. The role could have been filled out by a number of different people, Palpatine was just the perfect one to do so.



Please. You're not just being narrow-minded, you're being close-minded.

Palpatine was able to learn off of Sith knowledge and teachings that had been gathered for a millennium, and his vision required the efforts of others.

HE.DOES.NOT.GET.ALL.OF.THE.CREDIT.

Got it yet?

The only one that can be argued to get all of the credit is Bane, and in one respect only: that of destiny.



As good as proven, I think you'll find.



Not just as good as proven here, but undeniably proven. Sidious is referred to as a product of the BoD's gathered knowledge and wisdom.



LMAO.

Firstly, this argument isn't even about personal strength, so managing to prove that, as a claim, doesn't even make sense. Sure, you can claim to have done it, but like all of the other bullshit you spew, it would be far from the truth.

Secondly, you've failed to substantiate the intelligence required on Palpatine's part to do what he did. All you've done is elaborated on the scale of his achievements.

Thirdly, greatness is very much debatable. As far as Sith prophecy is concerned, Bane is credited with achieving what Palpatine triggered the event of.



No, it really doesn't. You can lie all you want, but you've been intellectually curbstomped each time, to the point where you've resorted to argue that it's the underlying message, rather than the sole interpretation.



LOL.

For the forum retards, in nice big letters: "POWERFUL ENOUGH TO RETURN THEM FROM HIDING."

And.. you go and elaborate onto something that was able to keep the Sith in hiding? This is one of the many reasons why you've been getting demolished in every single one of our debates: you miss the point, and your replies are constantly non parallel to the original claim.



Bingo! Sticking to the point. Now, as can be seen, clearly personal combat power had nothing to do with it, making your original interpretation of the quote nonsensical.



Bound in perpetual stupidity? No, bound in darkside prophecy.



Again, quit referring to me as someone I'm clearly not.

Is the Force a person, Gideon? Does it have eyes? I'll answer for you: no.

Meaning, for the quote to *not* be a metaphor, the only explanation would be that "through the eyes of the force" refers to the Force Signature given off by all matter within the SWU, making the quote regarding Revan's exactly like this one.

Point is, you have zero grounds to label Sidious a dark side nexus. To do such, would mean you'd have to label Revan a force nexus as well, for your reasoning to remain consistent.



The Burden of proof Fallacy. I'm starting to associate this one with you, Alex.

Now, please don't try to shift the burden of proof onto me; you made the claim, so it's up to you to prove on up.

Good luck, Sir.



Double standards? How so? Explain yourself.



"LOL" all you want Darth Sexy #2, the number really is irrelevant in this case, simply because when arguing the sheer intelligence required on both Bane's and Sidious' part, you'd have to look at the individual manipulations that both did. Sidious manipulated a number of people, over a large period of time, and thus of course the scale of his overall achievement would have been larger. However, that's irrelevant. Analyse the individual manipulations to substantiate Sidious' supposed superiority in intelligence. As far as the individual manipulations go, Bane was able to manipulate Lord Kaan, someone described as an evil genius, into doing what he willed. Sidious manipulated a bunch of weak willed politicians and a sheep like populace. There's really no comparison.



Mace refers to the fall of Darth Bane. The clear, underlying message, here, is that Bane himself came into contact with the Jedi, but sadly, was killed.



Here, seeing as you ignored this this time round, I'll post it again:

Revan's role in the Ro2 was far more limited than people would make out. All that Revan provided Bane with the knowledge of, was that the dark side was strongest when concentrated in small numbers rather than large, and having more than one apprentice was self defeating because it would present them the opportunity to unite against the Master, meaning that it wasn't always ensured that the strongest would survive.

However, there's far more to the Ro2 than just that.

Bane alone understood the significance behind gathering s much knowledge as the Sith could before striking back at the Jedi.

Bane alone understood the significance behind waiting until the Jedi truly believed that the Sith were extinct before striking back at them.

Bane alone knew to wipe out the BoD, and then implement the Ro2.

Bane alone was credited in prophecy in achieving what Revan in part inspired him to do, and what Palpatine triggered.

Get to it.

And Bane understood that only when the Jedi were most complacent would they be destroyed, which was the case by the time of Sidious' rise to power.



Elaborating on the sheer scale of his accomplishments is not substantiating the intelligence required to achieve them. Have a go at doing that.



Similar? LMAO. Right, two holocrons and some information from some archives which are clearly described as quite limited and lacking compares to a millennium's worth of gathered knowledge. Right...





No, Palpatine had a major advantage in terms of the gathered knowledge, and he also had another: in the form of the complacent and no longer battle prepared Jedi.



On a extremely limited level.

Nice Strawman. I didn't say that Bane's goal is automatically greater simply because it took him less time, I was simply pointing that out as a factor which you weren't taking into consideration. The only terrible logic here is coming from the person who has been committing an abundance of logical fallacies.



LMAO. I had no idea that it was because of Palpatine that the Jedi were complacent and no longer battle prepared, and I had no idea that Palpatine was responsible for the millennium's worth of gathered knowledge.

Shitty logic from a shitty logician.

Palpatine was a benefactor of circumstances, that triggered what is essentially credited to Bane. Right man at the right time' nothing more, could be something less actually, coming to think about it.



He's not just *not* stupid. He's displayed the greatest learning rate out of anyone in the entire Mythos.



No, you're not.



What he sees is worthless since he sits in front of his computer screen with his Eyes Wide Shut.



Right, the accumulated wisdom of the Ro2 Sith Order had nothing to do with it.

Neither did Bane realising that the Jedi could only be defeated through cunning and guile.



One would only need pwns if they were unable to achieve something on their own.

Credit, in that respect, is shared out.



Not according to dark side prophecy, or logic.



Again, Maul didn't do jack. Repeatedly bringing him up, and refusing to explain why makes you look like quite the silly billy.



Bane didn't have that goal, making this comparison worthless.

And, as said, Dooku simply followed his Master's Orders, and used his given status as Count of Serreno to his advantage.

Vader didn't have to directly work for a Galactic seat of power, it was given to him by Sidious.

These comparisons are absurd.



No, if we use what you distorted my logic into Mr Strawman.



Again, Style over Substance is a logical fallacy. Simply making out that my premise was false doesn't make it so, no matter how convincing you present it (not that you've actually presented it convincingly).

You made a non-parallel comparison, and I pointed that out. Own up.



No, because Revan played a tiny part in Bane's success, at best. I say at best given that Bane was already coming to the conclusion that the dark side was spread too thin long before he came across Revan's holcron, and as said, there was far more to what Bane achieved than just what Revan "revealed" to him.



No, it belongs to the entire Ro2 Sith Order, as stated (that he was the product of their gathered teachings).



Please, it's more than just "inspiration." He was able to learn off of teachings gathered over a millennium. He's directly stated as being a product of those teachings. Those teachings molded Palpatine into what he became, and without them, he wouldn't have been in the same position.



Help, which represented a mere fraction of what he used for his Ro2, and help which wasn't really necessary in the first place, given Bane's lines of thought had slowly been becoming parallel to those that Revan voices in his holocron.



LMAO. I thought you'd finish off with a burden of proof Fallacy. Fitting, I guess.

And the moron continues.

Indeed he does. You continue with the gross double standards, bashes, and the lies. Until such a time you relieve yourself of all three, this need not continue.

Well, I'd expect you to come out with such an excuse, after having your ass kicked. Nobody likes to admit defeat.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Well, I'd expect you to come out with such an excuse, after having your ass kicked. Nobody likes to admit defeat.

I have no qualms with consent or admitting defeat. Traditionally, one would have to actually beat me first. When you do that, I'll consent. Until then, you have some pruning to do before this argument continues.

I pm'd Publius with your request. When he replies, I'll let you know.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Well, I'd expect you to come out with such an excuse, after having your ass kicked. Nobody likes to admit defeat.


And I rest my case about denial due to stupidity, depression, antisocial behavior, etc. It's too bad nobody ELSE has acknowledge you ever winning an argument Noobaris. Right now you're the butt of every joke on these forums.