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Neutral setting, both characters at their peaks.

1. Force Battle.
2. Saber Battle.
3. Saber and Force Battle.

Dooku clearly shows superiority in the movies, able to dispatch him while fending off an increasingly-angry Anakin.

Dooku shows superiority in the Force, chocking and him and crushing him with means to which Obi-Wan displays no defense.

There's literally nothing that suggests that Obi-Wan can contend with Dooku.

Again? Dooku takes this.

Well, all that I'm going to say is that in the force, Obi-Wan is logically the better of the two. Dooku, when overpowering Obi-Wan, only ever catches him off guard through quick force manoeuvres whilst lightsaber dueling him. Given that a surprised Obi-Wan wouldn't exactly be applying a force defence, no comparison can be drawn from those feats, and no superiority can be argued for Dooku.

On the other hand, Obi-Wan's constant high showings suggest extremely great power within the force.

In TPM, as a padawan, he's able to use the force to accelerate himself faster than the human eye can perceive, and, after Maul had pushed him into the reactor shaft, and he was hanging for his life, he was able to use the force to propel himself out of the shaft, draw Qui-Gon's saber towards him, and cut Maul in two all before the Sith Lord could even react to him.

In RotS, he's able to fling Grievous up into the air at an extremely high speed, in defiance of gravity, with a distance of about 50 feet (would have been greater if not for the ceiling, which Grievous went slamming into). Later on, during Order 66, he's able to sense the mass deaths of the Jedi taken down by the Clones, a planet scale level of force sense, which has only been showed to be rivalled by Sidious and Yoda. He is, at the end of the film, able to stalemate Anakin "off the chart midi-chlorian count" Skywalker in a direct force battle.

His ANH incarnation is logically his most powerful incarnation in respect to the force, given the length of time that had gone to pass, and we know that by this time, he's managed to master the technique of becoming a force spirit, which is shown as being a very obscure and advanced Jedi technique.

Logically, Obi-Wan, at his peak, is more powerful than Dooku with the force.

But in Sabers and an all out fight? Dooku likely dominates.

Is this suppose to be a joke? By the way, did you noticed that dooku used the force twice agaisnt obi-wan in that fight and both times obi-wan was unable to stop him? Or maybe that the smalest portion of dooku's power was enough to take down obi1 as it was stated in the novelization?



Lol, so what? Good, he can use force speed, incredible. My god, he can use force jump, what atonishing power... Ah, wait a minute, wasn't he force pushed by maul, a sith whose force powers were not exactly his especiality?



He force pushed grievous. Wasn't grievous unbable to defend himself against force powers? Surely this makes him stronger then dooku in the force... Oh, he sensed the death of thousands of jedi? When did that happen actually? Oh, and the most funny of this all is that it seems that you are trying to imply that anakin had already untapped his full potential...



Prove me that obi-wan had not already untapped his full potential at ROTS. Oh, and if you can't that try to prove that he actually learn any new power that could improve his performance in a force contest.

No, it's supposed to make sense, which it does.

Are you suppose to be a joke?



Yes, however due to being caught off guard, not because his force defence wasn't strong enough, as he'd realistically not be able to apply one given the surprise nature of the attacks.



Firstly, Obi-Wan was a great Jedi Master, and is deserving of your respect. Label him obi1 again, and the gloves come off.

Secondly, the novelisation is not G-Canon. It's invalid as evidence for a discussion regarding the primary universe of Star wars.



Wow, way to try and downplay the feat by making up names and acting as if it's not so special.

Fact 1: it's a display of speed not replicated by anyone else in the saga.

Fact 2: he does it as a padawan, far from his ANH level of power.



Again, you're trying to downplay this by making up names for the power, and making out as if it's nothing special with some real lame sarcasm added in.

Fact 1: he was able to pull off three separate manoeuvres before a powerful force user (focus on the fact that force users have enhanced reflexes) could react to him.

Fact 2: he does it as a padawan, far from his ANH level of power.



1. Your last comment is completely unsupported and unprovable with G-Canon material.

2. The situation is just like the one with Dooku; he gets caught off guard.

3. Even if Maul's powers weren't his speciality, it doesn't mean that they're weak. He's certainly displayed great ability with the force, being able to casually fling a tiny piece of debris (focus on the fact that great force control would be required to lock on to such a small object and toss it in such a casual manner) at an extremely great speed simply to open up some blast doors that were blocking the direction that his duel with the Jedi was taking him. And, as I said, this is padawan Obi-Wan.



Don't shift the focus of what I was saying. Are you gonna downplay the way Sidious chucks the Senate Pods at Yoda in RotS simply because they can't defend against the force? You wouldn't, simply because we can still gauge the power behind it by observing certain factors. TK can be proven effective when used against those who can't defend against it, you know? The sheer speed and power that Obi-Wan tossed Grievous with is clearly speaking of great power.



In RotS, shortly after we start seeing Order 66 being put into place.



No, what's funny is your inability to understand what I'm saying correctly. Anakin may not have reached the apex of his power, but his enormous potential, 13 years of training as a Jedi, as well as such things as his 3 years of war experience would quite obviously create a very adept warrior. After the Mustafar incident, his much weaker self was capable of tearing up all of the machinery within his medical room with his pure rage made manifest. He's quite obviously depicted as being very powerful.



Given that the ancient Yoda showed signs of improvement during the very same time period (his ability to levitate the X-Wing far eclipses anything he does in the movies, some of which show clear signs of his limits), and Obi-Wan would be at a much earlier stage of development, it's ridiculous to even have to ask me that question. Logic would quite clearly dictate that there was still plenty of room for improvement.



It's not that he would have had to learn any new power, but his power would logically have increased. It's not like he had a lot of responsibilities after the Jedi purge, and Jedi were generally shown to be meditating on the force when not on active duty, which would hone one's connection with the force. Plus, his training from Yoda (the art of becoming a force spirit) would certainly have given him a greater understanding of the force.

Originally posted by vader11
Again? Dooku takes this.

What mean you by "again?"

Count Dooku, any time, any place. He's owned Obi Wan twice already, he could easily do it again.

Perhaps you need to watch the movies again.

Perhaps for fight number 3. Fight number 1 and 2 is up for debate, however.

Only by you, really.

Ive actually read through your threads and whilst you clearly like the mass-debates, there can be little getting out of this simple fact:

What happened in the movies happened.

And you or I can sit round hypothesizing all day about potential different outcomes of X and Y alternative scenarios, but the simple fact is Ob1 had all the time in the world to prove his ability to own Dooku and he couldn't.

1) Sabre battle: And surprise tactics/attacks still take nothing away from the fact that the Jedi couldn't deal with it.
What was a dark lord of the sith gonna stand there and go "Awwww dammit I can't fight dirty, can I now, that wouldn't be sporting"...?
Nope. He was gonna take whatever route to ensure victory.
He held his own against Yoda and was only owed by none less than the chosen one using the darkside in ROTS.

2) Force battles: And the point made about Grevious: He as pointed out previously, couldn't defend himself against force pushes as he wasn't a practitioner of the force, but merely a lightsaber-using cyborg.
As the shit that Dooku was pulling off with the force against the Jedi (even against Yoda!!!) demonstrated, Dooku owned on the force manipulation front too.

Now, continue on as Im sure you will, but as Im not into EU per say Im just gonna stay with these facts, cheers.

You are referring to Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan, yes? If so:

Sure it did, but what happened means little for any battle scenario except number three (given he overpowered Dooku with a combination of his saber and force ability), which I'll again make clear that I think Dooku wins hands down. Guy's a brilliant fighter, and as a pure fighter, he's among Yoda and Sidious at the top imho.



Obi-Wan wasn't exactly going to be 'proving' his offensive force capabilities against Dooku considering it's against the Jedi way, and as for defencive force capabilities, Dooku catches Obi-Wan off guard every time he used the force against him, essentially making it impossible for Obi-Wan to 'prove' his defencive force capabilities against him.

So, clearly your implications that Obi-Wan would have displayed superiority in the force against Dooku if he was in fact superior is very much flawed. Try again.

As for saber abilities, in RotS, Dooku never actually manages to overpower him with his saber alone, so it's up for debate as to who's the better of the two in that department. I'd say Dooku myself, though it's close.

To be honest, I don't really care too much for that debate. This thread, as you probably know, was basically made because the thread in the PT section (dealing with force abilities alone, which is all I really cared for arguing) was closed because Ush incorrectly believed that it had become a versus thread. I just thought I might as well include a saber and all out fight as well, given that it appears to be a standard thing in this sub-forum.



Of course not. But you're missing the essential point, which is that only the attributes that lead to Dooku being able to surprise attack Obi-Wan can be spoken of from the feat alone. Those attributes in question would be his dueling ability, concentration, and tactics (+ is testament to the advantage of wielding your lightsaber with just one hand while dueling, whilst leaving your other hand free). With force ability itself, however, no comparison can be drawn, simply because being caught off guard would prevent Obi-Wan from putting up a force defence.



Of course, but I think you'll find that the attributes that made him capable of doing what he did wouldn't be quite so effective in battles 1 and 2, where force and saber ability can't be combined in such a way.

Again, you're missing the point I was making. I was only saying that the surprise nature of his attack detracts from what he did because we were speaking in respect to force ability. In this context, what you're saying is irrelevant. Force superiority can only be gauged if there's a comparison of force powers involved, and the fact that Obi-Wan was caught off guard meant that he couldn't apply a force defence, meaning no comparison.



As I've said, Dooku's a great fighter indeed.

But, to keep things relevant to what I was arguing, force wise, Yoda brushes off his attacks with ease, even being able to redirect Dooku's lightning with his hands, and casually absorbing it. In force ability, Yoda >>> Dooku.

Dooku's strengths lay in all out ability in my opinion, given how smart a fighter he is, and, as I brought up, the advantages gained by wielding a lightsaber with one hand whilst dueling.

BTW, I'd hardly label Anakin's defeat of him an own myself.



As I already said, such facts in no way detract from the sheer speed and power that Obi-Wan threw him with. Would the feat be more impressive if used against a force user? Of course! But, TK can still be used against a non force user and be proven impressive.



Sure he did, but the power displayed isn't quite on par with Obi-Wan's showings.

Plus, Obi-Wan displays great force ability on a number of different levels (great ability to use the force to augment his physical abilities as a padawan, great ability to feel the force by sensing the Mass Order 66 Jedi deaths, great ability to manipulate the force shown by the force with which he tossed Grievous, and great understanding of the force as shown by how he's able to master the ability of becoming a force spirit), and on the levels with which can be compared with Dooku, he does so with greater proficiency.

Dooku's good, sure, but Obi-Wan's better.



Well, luckily for you, EU evidence cannot be used for arguing this thread. This thread deals with the G-Canon prime universe, and that universe alone. GL considers the EU an AU, so whilst canon, it has no effect on anything purely G-Canon. So... continue. If you can.

1) I didnt say Obiwan had to prove shit except to me that he could beat Dooku. And he didn't.

You assert that he could beat him, regardless of technique, he couldn't.

Therefore a "try again" is not neccessary.

How about, without mincing around 800 letter long epics that surely are designed to carry the weight in volume of letters, that the argument lacks. that you follow Ush's advice and get get more concise.

Dooku didnt have/get a chance to (AGAIN, regardless of 3 years war experience). He disposed of Obi-wan very quickly and then went on to be bested by a dark-side-using Anakin.

"Ush incorrectly believed that it had become a versus thread."

No, Ush correctly stated that it was becoming a versus thread.

Well as for the argument that Grevious not being able to resist force attacks means nothing, means nothing.

"that Obi-Wan was caught off guard meant that he couldn't apply a force defence, meaning no comparison" -kinda backs me up there.

"Dooku's strengths lay in all out ability in my opinion, given how smart a fighter he is, and, as I brought up, the advantages gained by wielding a lightsaber with one hand whilst dueling."

Fair enough. No argument there. All out superiority.

" Of course! But, TK can still be used against a non force user and be proven impressive."

Impressive like 40 yr old guy bitchslapping a 15 yr old, maybe.
But nothing more.
Darth Maul threw a box or something into a control panel to open a door in the Phantom Menace. Was that an impressive owning of the door switch then...?

"Sure he did, but the power displayed isn't quite on par with Obi-Wan's showings."
When why didn't Obiwan stop Dooku from owning him...?

"Well, luckily for you, EU evidence cannot be used for arguing this thread. This thread deals with the G-Canon prime universe, and that universe alone. GL considers the EU an AU, so whilst canon, it has no effect on anything purely G-Canon. So... continue. If you can."

(1) what better place than the EU section for that...?
Quite the ironic statement given that the opinion that Obi-Wan sensed the purge is your own brand of EU.

(2) That being the case, Im now not even bothered as Im interested in the movies only. You seem to seek only validation, and not enlightenment, so good luck with that. If you wish to believe that Obi-wan was the most powerful between the two just because he threw a force defenceless droid into a wall, and because you have somehow pulled it out of thin air that he sensed the purge(!!!??!) (So much so, that when Bail told him about the "Ambushes happening all over the galaxy" it was total news to him!!!!)

(3) your closing argument (complete with childish closing-dig) is so full of assumptions an holes that I honestly have lost all respect for the position and while you are gonna be typing a big assed response, im gonna go and enjoy my night knowing that no one has given you the validation you so need.
So no, its not a question of "if I can."

Peace.

Good Lord that's probably the biggest joke of a reply I've ever received in an argument. Learn how to properly formulate and structure an argument, and I'll reply to you. While you're at it, learn a little about grammar, and lose the temper tantrum. Try brushing up on your reading comprehension as well.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Good Lord that's probably the biggest joke of a reply I've ever received in an argument. Learn how to properly formulate and structure an argument, and I'll reply to you. While you're at it, learn a little about grammar, and lose the temper tantrum. Try brushing up on your reading comprehension as well.

That's no joke compared to yours. Your supposed 'structure' has been stomped many times... I really don't understand why you continue arguing. Seriously, watch the movies again, in AOTC Dooku CLEARLY defeats Kenobi on a one-on-one fight... this simply could not be any clearer.

Suck on my Mandalorian Pride.



This sentence doesn't even make sense.



I really don't understand why you try to speak English.



1. In an all out fight. I outright said that Dooku would win an all out fight hands down. I said a saber battle was debatable, with Dooku probably coming out on top. I didn't even say that I thought that Obi-Wan would definitely win a force battle. I only said that Obi-Wan was logically the more powerful of the two with the force, as that is what their respective showings point to.

2. Do you realise how dumb you sound by bringing up a relatively (relative to the movies) weak Obi-Wan to somehow decide that he's losing in this matchup when this thread is dealing with him at his peak? Seriously, get smarter.



You lacking brain cells is all that is clear here, Son.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Suck on my Mandalorian Pride.



This sentence doesn't even make sense.



I really don't understand why you try to speak English.



1. In an all out fight. I outright said that Dooku would win an all out fight hands down. I said a saber battle was debatable, with Dooku probably coming out on top. I didn't even say that I thought that Obi-Wan would definitely win a force battle. I only said that Obi-Wan was logically the more powerful of the two with the force, as that is what their respective showings point to.

2. Do you realise how dumb you sound by bringing up a relatively (relative to the movies) weak Obi-Wan to somehow decide that he's losing in this matchup when this thread is dealing with him at his peak? Seriously, get smarter.



You lacking brain cells is all that is clear here, Son.

Well, in case you haven't f*ckin realized, I am Mexican. So if I were you I would stfu and think before you start talking sh*t.

Now, if you think Dooku beats Kenobi in every sense, then why the f*ck did you even start this stupid thread?

Then why don't you tell us which Kenobi has the remote possibility of beating Dooku? When does Kenobi reach his peak? Not in the movies? Then when? If we "haven't seen Kenobi at his peak", then, again, why did you even start this thread? If no one has seen him, then nobody knows.

Here's what I'm gathering from this thread...

Firstly, Nmens, the fact that you pick on grammar to show superiority makes you nauseatingly inferior. If you're going to pick on grammar, go to the TF.N boards. I'm sure they've got plenty of people for you to pick on.

As far as I'm concerned, you can't be a grammar Nazi and a debator at the same time. It makes your arguments weak and you incompetent.

In any case, your grammar isn't spectacular at all times either, so you don't even have the right to be a grammar Nazi.

Secondly, you write WAY too much. It's disgusting.

Thirdly, Dooku beats Kenobi. 'Nuff said.

Closed.