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Discuss.

Answer the question with "Yes" or "No", then give reasons for why you've decided that, or if you have an alternate answer, give it.

Please consider your reaction before you post, try not to be an idiot about it.

-AC

no, if english talent is there, it will be spotted.

Wayne rooney for example, foreigners didnt stop him did they?

His raw talent got him where he is now.

The only problem is that there are ore overseas players in a team than englishman. Average englishman just dont play. To play you have to be a very good player, simple as that.

And the harsh fact is that there are consistantly more better overseas players.

Who are you and what have you done with Deano?

-AC

Originally posted by Deano

The only problem is that there are ore overseas players in a team than englishman. Average englishman just dont play. To play you have to be a very good player, simple as that.



Which is a good thing.

As Wenger said, lowering the level doens't make anyone better; if anything it makes them worse.

yeh he is right

i enjoy football. if managers want to pick overseas players then, thats fine with me.

No.

I regularly watch England U21's and a couple of Under 19's internationals and they have great talent.

English players arn't usually skilful and dont have the european talent that seems to win over english managers. I don't think for a second any of the top 4 teams in England would have bought a player like Jamie Carragher.

Get their fingers out and perhaps look beyond West Ham and Southampton's youth academy for up and coming talents.

Toure cost Ģ500,000.

Carrick cost Ģ16,000,000.

-AC

Carrick cost 18.6m actually

I don't think it's ruining English talent, I think what's wrong is Championship and lower clubs are demanding way too much money for their English players purely because they're English.

Originally posted by Df02
Carrick cost 18.6m actually

As well as Toure costing Ģ150k. So Carrick wasn't 32 Toures; he was 124 Toures.
Originally posted by Df02

I don't think it's ruining English talent, I think what's wrong is Championship and lower clubs are demanding way too much money for their English players purely because they're English.

That's part of it. Also the lower level and youth coaching is crap.

Originally posted by Df02

I don't think it's ruining English talent, I think what's wrong is Championship and lower clubs are demanding way too much money for their English players purely because they're English.


You've got it spot on their my man, for instance Dave Nugent went to Pompy for something like Ģ6million, that baffles me because he aint that good and perhaps maybe because he poached big time for a goal for england.

There are alot of Scotland Internationals being snapped up for cheap by english clubs, like Miller, Beattie, Russell Anderson and Ross Wallace. It just aint fair.

Signing carrick for Ģ18 million or so, my opinion is that he was an england international and he HAD to play for a big team since he is the next gen in england players...? PLEASE, anyone who is anyone in the england game has to have a huge price tag on their head, I would love to see any team OUTSIDE the english Prem put a bid in for more than Ģ8 for Carrick.

i think its interesting how little british players fare and are successful overseas. there just hasnt been that many. linekar was possibly the last decent british player to do well overseas?

agree with df02

The fact that Carrick cos two million more than Thierry Henry is quite silly.

-AC

the fact that players are bought and sold at the prices they are is quite silly anyway. didnt thierry go for Ģ14million? how cheap is that. hes not even that old, 30ish? thats still good age for a footballer.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact that Carrick cos two million more than Thierry Henry is quite silly.

-AC

I was shocked when I read this, I was in ibiza during the whole thing and had to rely on the "great british tabloids" to inform me. Ģ16million for a world class international striker? he was valued at Ģ30+million a season before. He had 4 years remaining on his contract, I'm surprised that Wenger didn't use that for more cash.

If I was Thierry I would be a little bit down-hearted by that price tag. Walking into Barca team at that price? no matter how big his rep was I think even he thinks it was a joke.

Football prices are getting silly beyond believe, Rio Ferdinand for Ģ29? shevchenko? I mean the English league is takin the mickey. The only buy I can think of which seemed worthwhile (over 12million) is Rooney from Everton.

There is a rule in the Scottish Premier League that each 18 man squad (7 subs), there has to be at least 3 under21's in the lineup for each game. It must be frustrating for fringe players to see 18,19 year olds keeping the bench warm. England should maybe adapt a similar rule tho.

yeh but henry is 30 now. carrick is only early 20's.

So? Hahaha.

Carrick shouldn't be Ģ18 million.

-AC

I donīt think this canīt be answered with a straight yes or no.

Some talented top foreign players can, due to their input, influence and in a way teach the younger players who are coming through. The problem is that maybe the players who are coming through are also foreigners. For example Theo Walcott probably learned a lot from Henry whilst he was at Arsenal, and heīs a good example to follow.

English players are way to expensive, Carrick Ģ18 was a great example of that. But why are they so expensive?

What people tend to forget is the actual pool of players to choose from also effects the national squad. If youīve got a large population of people playing football then your going to get more world class players. England is a small country where people play all sorts of sports like Rugby, Cricket, Darts etc which brings down the available choice of young talent down further.

Brazil is the sixth most populated country in the world with over 200 Million people and the majority play football as a sport whether it be on the beech or the skillfull "futebol de salão", England has a 1/4 of that population and they play various sports. This also explains why countries like Cyprus, Andorra etc arnīt very effective on the pitch.

If you consider this then England canīt be expected to be a top world beater.

(Mind you this argument goes out the window when you look at Rugby and the All blacks)

How is that foreigners faults, though?

The national squad being shit has nothing to do with foreigners in the league.

-AC

Its not the foreigners fault. If I was a foreigner Iīd jump at he chance to play in the premiere division.

England are "average" (not shit) because of the pool of talent to choose from, the fact that English players are for some reason over priced and the youth system, that is the coaching of young players isnīt skill based, but more physical at a younger age.

Unless you can factually prove they are shit, beyond all deniability, as a truth, stop saying they aren't as if I am wrong. Express it as your opinion.

-AC

if there good enough they will make,class always tells.
even if they dont make to a top 4 premiership club the other prem clubs will reap the benefits in the end.
so to answer youre original question -no,its just an excuse for a under achieving nation.
40 odd years of failure being blamed on about 10years influx worth of forign players is a easy excuse.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So? Hahaha.

Carrick shouldn't be Ģ18 million.

-AC

i know he shouldn't. in fact, not many players should. if any

I know its only a game, but in Football Manager 2008, I am always being told to offlaod my english youth players are they are not good enough. I am Newcastle and have to look abroad to find good players.

Perhaps the youngsters are not impressing that much, I also think that people are over-the-top impressed with some fancy stepovers and dribbling past the opponent. Foreigners like to show off and it seems to impress alot of people, I dont see the fuss I just want to see people get the job done so they can actually have A JOB in the game.

Sone Aluko is an english U19 international on loan from Birmingham up here in Aberdeen at the moment, he does the fancy stepovers and yes it is a joy to watch someone with natural skill up in the SPL...but he also gets the job done and knows that if a stepover fails the fans will get really pissed off.

When Ronaldo first arrived at Man Utd (and on the TV screens bassically), I was sick to death of all the football dudes at my school trying to show off the fancy stepovers, as a Defender it was quite amusing to simply knick the ball off them with ease....really annoyed me

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Unless you can factually prove they are shit, beyond all deniability, as a truth, stop saying they aren't as if I am wrong. Express it as your opinion.

-AC

I,m not trying to prove they are shit, you are failing to.

Results prove things not some opinion of someone who hasnīt got a scooby what heīs talking about, and reacts in a childish manner.

Team Pld W D L GF GA Pts
England 11 7 2 2 22 4 23

from 11 games lost 2, conceded only 4 goals, scored 22. Thats not shit by anyone with a brains measure.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I,m not trying to prove they are shit, you are failing to.

Results prove things not some opinion of someone who hasnīt got a scooby what heīs talking about, and reacts in a childish manner.

Team Pld W D L GF GA Pts
England 11 7 2 2 22 4 23

from 11 games lost 2, conceded only 4 goals, scored 22. Thats not shit by anyone with a brains measure.

That's results. All the results prove are results. Results do not dictate form, necessarily. I'm not denying their results, I'm denying their continual quality as a team.

I feel they are shit, historically and consistently. You are not proving me wrong, you are just continually saying they aren't.

If you cannot prove that they are FACTUALLY not shit (You haven't done so), then stop suggesting it as fact.

You are the person who once said stats don't prove a thing and touted that performance is not proven by results or stats. Now you're using them as a crutch, as an excuse.

Prove they are shit, by fact. Don't prove to me why you feel they aren't, I know why you feel they aren't.

Them being shit is opinion, them being average is opinion. That's the fact.

You can sit there and say I know nothing of football, but we both know that isn't true, and THAT is the childish reaction. I disagree, so therefore I know nothing? Silliness.

I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm telling you it's my opinion they are shit, and why. You are telling me you feel they aren't, and why. You are the ones trying to prove something, not me. It's my opinion, it's also yours.

England will almost definitely get the result they need tonight, because it's too good to be true that they will go out. I'm just gonna wait and watch while everyone forgets their current form and says "SEE!".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


England will almost definitely get the result they need tonight, because it's too good to be true that they will go out. I'm just gonna wait and watch while everyone forgets their current form and says "SEE!".

-AC

I wish I was watching the game with you just now, we would have a barmy.

I'm not feeling safe, but in all honesty I couldn't have even bet on this.

England's shitness SO FAR has surprised even me.

"Pitch, gotta be.", just watch.

-AC

Ive been listening to debates on this all week, on the radio, TV and people. Its a hard one but this is the deciding factor imo...

If you look at the top teams in the world, Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Germany they all have few and in the S.American countries hardly any foreign players. England have loads of foreign players and arnīt that good.

The amount of Foreign players is damaging the England national team. The balance has to be right, and the see saw is well down on the foreign side.

Another problem is that the club teams are to most people more important than the national team, I saw this in a poll somewhere. In other countries like Germany and Italy the national team is more important and the players KNOW IT, thats the difference.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Ive been listening to debates on this all week, on the radio, TV and people. Its a hard one but this is the deciding factor imo...

If you look at the top teams in the world, Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Germany they all have few and in the S.American countries hardly any foreign players. England have loads of foreign players and arnīt that good.

The amount of Foreign players is damaging the England national team. The balance has to be right, and the see saw is well down on the foreign side.

Another problem is that the club teams are to most people more important than the national team, I saw this in a poll somewhere. In other countries like Germany and Italy the national team is more important and the players KNOW IT, thats the difference.

Club teams should be the priority of the players, why wouldn't they be? Why do you feel the national team should take priority? Simply because they were born here? Stupid, nationalist propaganda. I'm not surprised more and more people don't want a part of the train wreck that is England. It's more games to play, more chance of getting injured, when in that time you could be playing in the league and winning where it counts, rather than signing up to play for a team based on pressure.

The games are nowhere near as frequent, and the games where these players make their living are the games that should take 100% priority. If Arsene Wenger willingly let William Gallas go because France needed him, because they are countrymen, it'd be a stupid decision. It could cost valuable results in the league, which is HIS job. I don't think any manager worth sense would do it. The problem is the way "THE NATIONAL TEAM IS MOST IMPORTANT!" is pushed as a fact, it's not fact, it's choice.

Foreign players are having no effect on the national squad, anyone who says otherwise is simply looking for excuses. The pundits you were listening to were probably the kind who wanna get proud and say "We've got the best league in the world.", and then say "We need more English players.". It's the best because of the foreign talent bringing the best out of the best English players. Hence why Lampard and co don't play as well for England. Lampard become one of the world's best midfielders when he went to Chelsea, not while he was at West Ham with a load of other Englishmen.

English players are either total shit or quite good/really good and overrated. Drop the patriotism veil and accept the fact. Micah Richards is a great player, he's secured a spot with England. Ferdinand, Lampard, Barry etc. Point being, players who are good enough will get picked. Yet, because so many English players are shit, there will inevitably be a weak squad with a few stand-outs.

Maybe they'll do well in Euro 2...ahh. Not going, hahaha. Wicked.

-AC

Me and my friends had a discussion yesterday about why England has the best league and it was an interesting one.

We could only nme about 7 world class players who actually are WORLD CLASS. There are some who are just names and don t perform well.

It was revolved round that if Ronaldo wanted to win World Player of the year he had to get out the Premiership. No one in the premiership has won that title as far as I can remember, I think Beckham and Owen have been thereabouts but thats about it.

i dont think foreign players ruin the British domestic leagues or national teams...i think chronic underinvestment in sports over successive governments has done the most damage...and more so at the top end

take France as an example...in the mid 80's when the Platini era was beginning to come to an end people lost any kind of interest in football in france...the government and the french league then invested huge sums of money into the cream of footballing talent and by 1998, when the french public barely cared that the world cup was being held on their doorstep or about how their team would do, they went and won it in style thanks to the ivestment bringing about the likes of players such as Henry, Trezeguet, Viera, Dechamps, Petit, Guivarch, Desailly, Lebouef, Djorkaef, Zidane

they got to the top and the investment has decreased and now their place is slipping

i also think that massive government investment in the British domestic teams might now take place seeing as all 4 failed to qualify for euro 2008 and if people kick up enough trouble about it then it can perhaps kick start some investment in football

granted it would be much more difficult to do it for 4 national sides

Originally posted by Discos
Me and my friends had a discussion yesterday about why England has the best league and it was an interesting one.

We could only nme about 7 world class players who actually are WORLD CLASS. There are some who are just names and don t perform well.

It was revolved round that if Ronaldo wanted to win World Player of the year he had to get out the Premiership. No one in the premiership has won that title as far as I can remember, I think Beckham and Owen have been thereabouts but thats about it.

the player of the year trophy's tend to go to players from the teams that are considered to be the giants of european football historically

AC Milan, Real Madrid, Juventus, Liverpool and to a lesser extent now Ajax and Bayern Munich...these are the teams that have the UEFA badge of honour and are allowed to keep the trophy permanantly

obviously recently Barcelona as well

Originally posted by Bicnarok

The amount of Foreign players is damaging the England national team.



Proof?

When you're trying to think of some and you can't, you'll realise it's one of those points that you should think through before you espouse it as fact.
Originally posted by Bicnarok

Another problem is that the club teams are to most people more important than the national team, I saw this in a poll somewhere. In other countries like Germany and Italy the national team is more important and the players KNOW IT, thats the difference.

Why is that a problem? If that's what they prefer, then why go to lengths to detract from the Premier League on some spurious Sun newspaper inspired idiocy that wouldn't even help the national side?

On another note, a team had 11 foreigners on the field in the CL the other night.

Inter.

Their national team is doing OK, I think. Haven't checked since May 06, so maybe something's changed.

People need to realise that England's players aren't all that. Just because there is a collective dreamwish that they are world class doesn't make it so. There are no reasons to search for, other than the fact that English players aren't very good. To change that, you change coaching at a young age. You don't replace better players with inferior ones.

I don't know what English Talent you are talking about, really.