Darth Sion vs Darth Sidious

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Gideon
Supposition and speculation.

Supposition and speculation? Wow, that's not only nonsensical, but it doesn't even make sense!

In all seriousness, it's not speculation. Sion possessed wounds that should essentially be killing him, yet he lives, and he outright claims to the Exile that he can be struck down a hundred times yet still rise. Not only is Darth Sion in a position to know of such a thing and not lie about it, but this is the game's way of setting up how great a threat Sion was to further add to the drama and hopelessness of the story.

Immortality? Immortality is essentially the act of not aging, and being unable to die. Sion is essentially actively keeping himself alive and cheating death. Nothing suggest he doesn't age. You're confusing the word 'immortality' with 'invincibility' here, Gideon, not that it matter anyway.

Wow, so you're going to attempt to undermine his ability by using evidence of what happens when he actively chooses to stop using it? Astonishing.

Wow, so you're gonna argue that someone who wasn't extremely powerful with the force can achieve something so phenomenal with it that no one else was able to? Your question is ludicrous, and very one-sided. You won't see me asking you to prove that Palpatine's Force Storms are indicative of his power, would you? No, you wouldn't, because it's so damn obvious that the proof isn't really required. Fact is, Sion was able to achieve what no one else has been able to, and his ability makes him near unstoppable in a battle scenario. To achieve remarkable feats that no on else has been able to with the force would suggest to anyone who actually possesses a brain that his ability to wield the force is obviously quite adept.

You wanna argue that it's all down to willpower? Not only is it your burden of proof, given that you're asserting it, but even if it were the case, why exactly would that not apply in other areas of force use? In KotOR, Revan, when asked for a description of the force by a Rakatan on Lehon, actually outright claims that those with a high enough willpower should be able to bend the force completely to their will. Numerous descriptions on "willpower" as a gameplay statistic outright claim that it has a direct effect on power (as in potency). Sidious himself was championed as having an extremely great willpower, and his most powerful technique, the force storm, by its own description, draws heavily on the user's willpower. Fact is, willpower has an extremely large effect on one's ability with the force so it wouldn't even matter if Sion's ability speaks purely for his willpower

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sion hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so. Sion appears in a few scenes within a Video Game FFS!

Prowess? Not only was he championed as the head of a sect of Sith Assassins, but he displays a phenomenal level of dexterity when slicing off Kreia's hand in one move. If tha's not prowess, I don't know what is.

1. Goes to show that even against more powerful opponents, his ability truly does provide an enormous advantage.

2. Nihilus is a cosmic being. Being overpowered by him doesn't not make you a powerhouse. His mere presence tangibly effects those around him, he was able to consume the life on an entire planet, and his awareness is on a planetary level. Sidious wouldn't do any better, he'd do worse actually, and die.

That analogy is completely off. Sion, like all force users, is able to manipulate a power source for a number of different uses. His ability to cheat death, and all his other abilities, draw power from the same source. Claire has access to one ability...

Un-proven, as it stands.

Line of thought? I just stated two straight facts. No line of thought in that part of my post, you'll find, Gideon.

Unsupported.

...

laughing out loud

Lol.

Nothing indicates that Sidious has that kind of power over Sion. Assuming that Sidious wouldn't be able to do those things would be the logical stance. Assuming that he could would be silly.

That easy, huh? Being a Master of Dun Moch alone doesn't mean that he'll be able to just make someone give up the will to keep fighting, and his manipulations have only ever shown to be successful when he plays them out nice and long, and doesn't rush anything. It would be ridiculous to assume that his manipulations would help him in a fast paced battle scenario, when nothing indicates it. As for Sion, he doesn't automatically have a small willpower simply because he lost it, one time, under very specific circumstances. The fact that Kreia cared for the Exile more than she did for Sion is what made him give up the will to live. The same does not apply with Sidious, and given that he doesn't have any personal bond with Sion or Kreia that would enable him to exploit his weakness, and given that nothing indicates that Sidious' manipulative ability would be helpful in a one-on-one fast paced battle scenario (certainly doesn't happen in any of his battle featured in Canon), it's ridiculous to assume such.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by GahLakTus
How i forgot, sion himself stated that the ability to keep on fighting is only avalible at planets deeply immersed in the dark side of the force, and places where any dark sider would be at an advantage, even sidious and along with the fact that he(sion) is fighting some one who posess greater knowledge of the force and fighting an opponent whom is highly resourceful

Mostly unsupported, and the bit about Sion only being able to fight on darkside immersed worlds? I call bullshit. He's seen fighting on a Republic Ship in Outer Space in a hologram.

What for?

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Mostly unsupported, and the bit about Sion only being able to fight on darkside immersed worlds? I call bullshit. He's seen fighting on a Republic Ship in Outer Space in a hologram.
I never said that idiot, i said he stated that only on worlds which are deeply immersed in the dark side of the force where he is capable of fully using his "immortality" whereas the capability of not being able to fall so easily

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

What for? For being the sock of nebaris, The way you structure your sentences, your constant down playment of sidious, your grammer pretty much indicates that you ARE nebaris

GahLakTus

EDIT double post

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by GahLakTus
I never said that idiot, i said he stated that only on worlds which are deeply immersed in the dark side of the force where he is capable of fully using his "immortality" whereas the capability of not being able to fall so easily

Your exact words were 'keep on fighting.' It's not my fault you're not able to properly convey your thoughts into words.

Well clearly you're over paranoid, because I'm not nebaris.

Lightsnake

We also have zero proof of Sion managing to make it through decapitation, loss of limbs....

This 'Sion is unkillable' stuff focuses on gameplay mechanics alone. Slashed, shot up? Sure. How about if Palpatine cuts Sion in half? Takes his head off? How exactly will Sion beat that? This is plain silly.

Gideon

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Supposition and speculation? Wow, that's not only nonsensical, but it doesn't even make sense!

Straight from Dictionary.com:

...They're pretty much the same thing. Dictionary.com lists them as synonyms. So, essentially, what I said was redundant but not nonsensical. Kind've like your statement: "Wow, that's not only nonsensical, but it doesn't even make sense!"

Pitiful reasoning. Sion's claims are just that -- claims -- and you expecting me to adhere to them based on the conclusion that "he's not in a position to lie!" (which is hilarious, since Sion is a Sith Lord and is thus deceitful by nature) and that he "knows such things!" without supporting it is ridiculous. Suffice it to say that things aren't fact because you state them, Nebaris, and if you want me to take your reasoning seriously, you'll do me the favor of proving it to be so.

This is irrelevant. Dictionary.com defines immortality as "endless life" and invincible as "incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued". In this case, Sion was neither, so in truth, he was neither immortal or invincible.

He was manipulated into such an action by the Exile. Based on all canon evidence, it is highly reasonable to assume that Palpatine could do the same. You disagreeing is astonishing.

That's right. You're basing this off of the unsupported assumption that Sion had to be "uber" with the Force to become psuedo-immortal/invincible. However, Sion hasn't demonstrated anything approaching the Emperor's level of Force mastery, so for all we know, his psuedo-immortality/invincibility was achieved through an application of willpower, rage, and Force power. Kind've like how Palpatine's Force Storm (which dwarfs anything destructive on Sion's part) was an application of knowledge, willpower, and Force power.

Sadly, it would. Willpower =/= massive Force power in all areas. Leia Organa Solo was able to resist the Empire's interrogation techniques and those of Darth Vader himself. Where is her upper tier demonstration of Force power, then? She doesn't have any. Her connection to the Force is mighty, but it doesn't do her any good. She's still not an upper tier Force user or combatant, despite having a connection to the Force that outstrips... what... 99% of the SW mythos? Your assertion that willpower = talent in all areas of the Force is ridiculous.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence? H'okay.

Lmao. You're fellating him because he cut off a Sith historian's hand and was the head of a bunch of weak-ass Sith assassins? So far, he's not stacking up against Darth Maul -- let alone Palpatine.

An enormous advantage? Hahaha. He got back up and... left. Like a b1tch who had just been whipped by a newspaper. What advantage? What was he going to do, exactly?

Prove it. Palpatine was also, by the way, able to consume life on a planetary level, that he did it over the course of years to prolong his lifespan demonstrates a much more profound control over it than Nihilus.

Sadly, the analogy isn't. You've only proven that Sion is adept in only one "major" technique, his psuedo-immortality/invincibility.

You're right. Your stance is "unproven, as it stands".

Facts are statements of truth. Your assumptions don't qualify.

Gideon

Sorry, but no. Palpatine has demonstrated speed, strength, experience, and knowledge on numerous occasions that vastly outstrip Sion's own. His power? Would we really need to go into detail? Likewise, I can always use the quotes from canon sources. Like it or not, Nebaris, this route has been closed off for you. wink

It applies. Psuedo-immortality.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sidious hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so."

Redundant, but applies.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sidious hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so."

Sorry, but no. Palpatine's the unquestioned manipulator of the SW mythos. Manipulating your sworn enemy for years while sitting in the very same room as you? Manipulating a galactic-spanning institution into giving you supreme power? Turning the being destined to destroy you into your ***** for twenty years? Tempting his son to join the dark side? Manipulating the Bothan Spynet? I could go on and on and on and on. Sad fact of the matter that Palpatine is more than capable of manipulating Sion into giving up his psuedo-immortality/invincibility after he gets tired of kicking the shit out of him all over the environment.

Assuming you're not banned, Nebaris, I'll talk to you later.

Violent2Dope

I would like to say that the thing Sidious did to Byss I think it was, is much different than what Nihilus does.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Your exact words were 'keep on fighting.' It's not my fault you're not able to properly convey your thoughts into words. No, its you are unable to comprehend what i just typed, i said the so called "immortality" he has only takes place on dark side empowered worlds as he himself stated, something which you fail to acknowledge

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Well clearly you're grammer, your bias, your down playment of canon says other wise, no 2 person in the universe is alike

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine was also, by the way, able to consume life on a planetary level, that he did it over the course of years to prolong his lifespan demonstrates a much more profound control over it than Nihilus.
The "motives" of Nihilus were actually different from that of Sidious when he decided to drain an entire planet.

Nihilus wanted to feed on the massive amount of energies that he would get by draining all the Force sensitives in that world. His terrible hunger was the driving force behind this, so he drained an entire planet quickly.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The "motives" of Nihilus were actually different from that of Sidious when he decided to drain an entire planet.

Nihilus wanted to feed on the massive amount of energies that he would get by draining all the Force sensitives in that world. His terrible hunger was the driving force behind this, so he drained an entire planet quickly. Legend, nihilus doesn't "drain" the lives of others like sidious or malak does, it is completely different.

What he does is he breaks the bond between his victims and the force which kills them instantly, then he feeds upon the death it causes.

The exile too feeds on the death she caused according to the jedi masters

Oh and nihilus didnt drain the planet itself but what was on the planet.

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Legend, nihilus doesn't "drain" the lives of others like sidious or malak does, it is completely different.

What he does is he breaks the bond between his victims and the force which kills them instantly, then he feeds upon the death it causes.

The exile too feeds on the death she caused according to the jedi masters

Oh and nihilus didnt drain the planet itself but what was on the planet. yes

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Gideon
Straight from Dictionary.com:

...They're pretty much the same thing. Dictionary.com lists them as synonyms. So, essentially, what I said was redundant but not nonsensical.

It was nonsensical in the sense that the "and" indicates a difference in meaning, when there is none there between the two synonyms. Not that it matters, honest mistake.

LOL...

Gideon, I was quite clearly joking when I said that, in mock response to what you had just said. Seriously, thought that was obvious. It's why I stated "In all seriousness" directly afterwards.

Firstly, I'll take note that you ignored all of this:

Sion possessed wounds that should essentially be killing him, yet he lives,

but this is the game's way of setting up how great a threat Sion was to further add to the drama and hopelessness of the story.

Try to get to it, if you can.

Secondly, your assertion that Sion is deceitful by nature simply because he is a Sith is what you'd call a False Association Fallacy. You can't just attribute him characteristics that simply belong to a collective group that Sion belongs to. As for whether or not he'd lie in such a position, there would only be one reason to lie in such a position in that respect, and that would be to demoralise The Exile (I mean, you're not gonna argue that he'd be trying to impress her are you?). Given that the claim follows Sion rising up each time after being struck down by the Exile, and that the claim wasn't really adding on any extra information that would demoralise The Exile, there would be no such value for the claim, if it were to be a lie.

Thirdly, how exactly would Sion not be in a position to know? You honestly don't think he would have tested the ability one time, before making such claims?

But again, arguing over Sion's credibility itself is silly, given that what he claims is the Game's way of giving us, the players, information about the storyline. What you need to understand, with literature, is that when there is no plausible method of conveying pure thought or fact through words, fallible third party claims, as long as there is no reason to suggest that they're inaccurate, are pretty much as good as words coming from the Omniscient Narrator.

Naturally, he was neither, that is correct, but the ability itself granted him invincibility. The fact that he could "turn it off" so to speak doesn't detract from the ability itself, it simply means he has control over it.

That makes his mental state fallible, not the ability itself, which is what I was getting at. You can't label the ability itself fallible by using evidence of what happens to Sion when he stops using it, is my point.

And no, that's not highly reasonable, as already explained. Palpatine's manipulative ability isn't infallible, and manipulations by their very nature generally only work at their best if you manipulate a subject over a long period of time.

To argue exactly what proportion of hate, willpower, and force ability that Sion possessed that granted him the ability to develop such an ability is purely speculation, true, so we might as well not, though given that force ability is what actually enables force users to manipulate the energy around them (whereas hate, and willpower, and other such abilities play more heavily on the mental demands behind the execution of the force), it can be logically assumed that force ability plays the most important part. No matter what way you look at it, cheating death with the force is clearly requiring some great strength with the force, and heavy mastery.

Also, the fundamental point that you're missing is that his ability speaks heavily for attributes that can be channelled into other abilities. Willpower? Already been elaborated on. Hate and anger? Numerous sources make them out as being heavy attributes when it comes to truly mastering the darkside. The Darkside Compendium for one, where Darth Sidious labels it as one of the primary attributes that enable him to summon force Storms. Force ability? no explanation required.

You're referring to Leia when she was mostly untrained. Of course willpower wouldn't factor in on force ability if you don't really know how to use it. Just like how it wouldn't apply if you have no connection to the force. It simply factors in on force ability. Leia virtually had none. Virtually nothing to factor in on. What she's doing, is not actually a force ability, but simply using her mind to resist mental applications of the force.

As I've already said, pure force ability would always be the primary attribute when using the force, but willpower, according to several sources, plays a heavy part to. Willpower, when it comes to force use, is essentially how well you can mentally handle usages of the force. This would be a factor in all force abilities. Why not for Sion? Unlike Leia, he's actually been trained with the force, and has a way in which he can apply his willpower in the certain ways you have mentioned.

Do you deny this? If Sion has no need for displaying great ability with the force, then there's no way you can consider a lack of such displays as evidence of Sidious' superiority. None.

What does the fact that Kreia is a Sith Historian have to do with anything? Her displays with the force are phenomenal, and as such it can be logically concluded that her general force ability is exceptional. Which would include pre-cog, reflexes, and speed. All of which were -for Kreia- not able to stop Sion from slicing off her hand in one move. If you're making a point of her logically not excelling in pure combat technique, well, irrelevant. She got taken out in one move. It's not like they crossed blades; technique doesn't factor in on what happened, only speed and reactions.

Weak-ass Sith assassins? Lol, can I say unsupported? There's nothing to indicate that they were weak. They were Masters of numerous styles of combat, including unarmed, so being the head of them speaks well for Sion's pure martial prowess. Not to mention (though a tad not to the point) they were Masters at cloaking themselves with the force, and well practised in Nihilus' severing ability, the greatest Sith teaching there was according to Kreia. Nothing indicates that as a collective group, they were weak.

BTW, you bring up Darth Maul. The same Darth Maul that was nearly able to take out Darth sidious in combat, hmm?

norrinradd43

Sion Impressed me...Sidious is alot more well rounded. However, Sion only died because he lost the will to live. Sion's pain feeds his dark powers and he is in constant pain since his body should be falling apart. He's powerful...Sidious has to make him lose the will to live in order to win.

Ultra Omega

The advantage of not dying. The scene fully cements just how resistant to damage Sion really is.

Indicates more control? How? Nihilus simply had no need to prolong the inhabitant's destruction. He's shown in three different situations, however, to possess the control with the technique to use it on a single being (Sion, the Exile, Kreia). So, as far as control is concerned, Nihilus has demonstrated far more of it that Palpatine. Time itself is no indication of control. In fact, all that shows is that Sidious has never displayed the ability to take such a great amount of life in quick succession, or instantly. In other words, Nihilus has displayed both more power, and more control with his planetary scale powers. Sidious < Nihilus.

Prove what, btw? That Nihilus is a cosmic being? His planetary scale awareness, planetary scale destructive power, and the fact that his mere presence kills makes him a cosmic being. Being overpowered by a cosmic being doesn't make you weak. The rest? All stated in the game.

No, it really is. Sion, as a force user, draws power from a single source, which can be applied through a number of uses. Force users can use the force offensively, defensively, hide themselves with it, control others with it, heal others with it, and do a number of other things. Their force ability (as in the strength of their relationship with the force, and their mastery of it) factors in on all abilities. Thus, if a force User excels with one ability, it speaks for their overall ability, as well as how effectively they can use their other ability.

Claire Bennet, as a "Hero," has access to one ability, which can't be applied in any way except regrowing her cells at an enhanced rate. Her being subdued by Sylar, is simply because her one ability is useless at doing anything other than healing her.

The analogy was as false as they come.

I'm always right.

They weren't assumptions. Sidious wouldn't have to rely on cloning technology if he could truly cheat physical death. And nothing indicates that Sidious can neutralise such an ability as Sion's.

First, please don't call me Nebaris (this goes for anybody else too). Wild and constant accusations that happen to not be true are a little annoying, to say the least.

What canon quotes? Provide them or don't bring them up.

As for demonstrations, I can only repeat what I've been saying. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point.

Invincibility, Gideon. Again, immortality indicates that you're not only invincible but don't age either. For instance, in Heroes which you appear to be a fan of, it's common knowledge that Claire and Kensei's ability means that they can virtually not die (it would appear removal of the head does the trick), but it's only labelled immortality (in the way that something new was being revealed) once it's revealed that he doesn't age either.

Nor is it proof of the affirmative. Nothing indicates that Sidious has that kind of power over Sion, ergo it's the logical stance to take. You can't default on the whole absence of proof thing when the burden of proof is on you. That would be what you'd call the burden of proof fallacy.

If you think the same applies for when I stated such, the difference is that both times, the burden of proof hasn't been on me, but you.

Not questioning Sidious' position there, but what you need to realise is that all the successful manipulations that you listed, were manipulations that he did over a long period of time. Manipulations, by their very nature, only work at their best when the manipulator plays things out nice and slowly. Incidentally, the one manipulation attempt that you listed that wasn't played out nice and slow (attempting to turn Luke to the darkside), was the one that failed. He also received two advantages there that he wouldn't have with Sion if he were to attempt to manipulate him. 1. He had Luke go up against someone immensely more powerful and skilled than he was. 2. He had someone else fight Luke, and was able to spend a small amount of time manipulating Luke, which he wouldn't have gained if he were to have been in combat as well.

I doubt he'd even be able to find the energy to say more than a few words in a fast paced one-on-one battle with Sion, let alone use his manipulative abilities to their fullest. Really, there's nothing to suggest that he'd be able to break Sion's will.

Fact: He wouldn't be able to gain an advantage over Sion's greatest mental weakness.

Fact: Manipulations work at their best with the luxury of time, and at their worst in fast paced battle scenarios.

Fact: Sidious has only ever been shown to successfully manipulate someone by working at it over a long period of time.

Fact: Every time he's shown to attempt to instantly manipulate someone, he's failed. Both times, against Luke.

Fact: All the evidence points to Sion's will being far greater than Luke's, and in a battle with Sion, Sidious wouldn't possess specific advantages that he actually did possess against luke, where he failed anyway.

So, to recap, your argument that Sidious would be able to break Sion's will has no real backing

Sion ftw!

I can assure you that I won't be banned, given that none of my actions have warranted it. And again, quit the name calling.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by GahLakTus
No, its you are unable to comprehend what i just typed, i said the so called "immortality" he has only takes place on dark side empowered worlds as he himself stated, something which you fail to acknowledge laughing out loud

Which you stated after my reply. I can assure you, the misunderstanding is on your part, not mine. And again, I call bullshit. His "immortality" ties into his ability to keep his body together, which remains active when not on darkside immersed worlds, such as on the Ebon Hawk.

laughing out loud

I think the word you're looking for there, little man, is "unique." Either way, it's not like I'd take your accusations seriously anyway. You hardly appear to be Mr Perceptive.

Ultra Omega

Meant the Republic Ship that The Exile and Co boarded at the start of KotOR 2. Yes, that's right, even Omega makes mistakes too.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Which you stated after my reply. I can assure you, the misunderstanding is on your part, not mine. And again, I call bullshit. His "immortality" ties into his ability to keep his body together, which remains active when not on darkside immersed worlds, such as on the Ebon Hawk. Along with the fact that on dark side worlds, he is much harder to beat, elsewhere, sidious would annihilate him

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I think the word you're looking for there, little man, is "unique." Either way, it's not like I'd take your accusations seriously anyway. You hardly appear to be Mr Perceptive. Denials a b!tch

Oh btw

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Wow, so you're gonna argue that someone who wasn't extremely powerful with the force can achieve something so phenomenal with it that no one else was able to?
Going by what you said , I guess bastila is a force god because of her battle meditation, something which windu has never shown to use yet despite bastila having this BM, she has been shown to be merely an average force user seeing that malak easily tooled her after she sacrifised herself to save revan
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Fact is, Sion was able to achieve what no one else has been able to, and his ability makes him near unstoppable in a battle scenario.
I guess the fact that sidious had the entire jedi archives, holocrons and all the knowledge to himself pretty much indicates he has far greater knowledge of the force than sion does and added with the fact that sion has never shown anything remarkable with the force other than his will power keeping him alive.

Right achieving something your opponent has yet to does not necessarily mean your more powerful, lets take out the new essential guide to characters , it stated on exar kuns page that exar kuns achievement as draining the massassi and being able to survive 4000 years as a spirit topped out what sidious did as coming back from death more than once but does that mean he is more powerful than sidious? Despite the fact various sources stated sidious superiority to both kun and sion?
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

To achieve remarkable feats that no on else has been able to with the force would suggest to anyone who actually possesses a brain that his ability to wield the force is obviously quite adept.
I guess he is more powerful than nihilus and luke because "they have never demonstrated this ability". All it would take is sidious to destroy sions force bond killing him instantly as nihilus easily did to countless people.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sion hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so. Sion appears in a few scenes within a Video Game FFS!
Your the one that needs to prove up nebby, what has sion demonstrated with the force? That indicates he is an extremely powerful force user with the capabilities to even fight toe to toe against somebody superior to him in every aspect of the force?

Right from the feats sidious accomplished with the force its safe to say he beats sion comfortably.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Prowess? Not only was he championed as the head of a sect of Sith Assassins, but he displays a phenomenal level of dexterity when slicing off Kreia's hand in one move. If tha's not prowess, I don't know what is. Wow because he sliced of kreias hand when she isn't in a fighting stance it means he has demonstrated incredible combat prowess, who -oope - friggin do then i guess anakin as of ROTS is a saber god because he sliced off windu's arm in one strike while vader is another god superior to sidious seeing he killed and diced up sia lan wezz's hand before her dead body hit the floor.

Fantastic logic neb

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

2. Nihilus is a cosmic being. Being overpowered by him doesn't not make you a powerhouse. His mere presence tangibly effects those around him, he was able to consume the life on an entire planet, and his awareness is on a planetary level. Sidious wouldn't do any better, he'd do worse actually, and die. And what happens when sidious using the fallanasi technique? Nihilus wouldn't be able to sense his force bond thus not being able to do anything to it.

I guess going by your logic, sidious is superior to NJO luke because he reconnected his force connection by himself after he got blinded to the force by leia and luke, something which sion has never demonstrated the capabilities to do so. Oh right by the time of dark empire, its safe to assume sidious could just cut his connection off and then proceed to wtf pwn him seeing that weaker jedi like vrook could do this technique

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

That analogy is completely off. Sion, like all force users, is able to manipulate a power source for a number of different uses. His ability to cheat death, and all his other abilities, draw power from the same source. Claire has access to one ability... What other abilities? Hmmm

Lightsnake

Nebaris, not to be contrary, but it seems whenever we reach a consensus you go right back to this a short time later...

Gideon

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nebaris, not to be contrary, but it seems whenever we reach a consensus you go right back to this a short time later...

Precisely. I've got no problem with Nebaris, but I do wonder why he's so desperate to get back here. I remember him telling people off for having "no lives". Going back and forth over the same issue isn't worth it.

Violent2Dope

Omega, Sidious>Nihilus, he may be my favorite SW character, but I'm not stupid enough to deny that fact.

Gideon

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Omega, Sidious>Nihilus, he may be my favorite SW character, but I'm not stupid enough to deny that fact.

If it makes you feel any better, Nihilus is a badass Sith Lord (though he's a poor excuse for a character).

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by Gideon
If it makes you feel any better, Nihilus is a badass Sith Lord (though he's a poor excuse for a character). Fanboyism will never let me admit that.

Gideon

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Fanboyism will never let me admit that.

It's because he's not portrayed very well. We have no real motivation for him outside of hunger. We have no real qualities to attribute to him. No dialogue. No background. Zilch.

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by Gideon
It's because he's not portrayed very well. We have no real motivation for him outside of hunger. We have no real qualities to attribute to him. No dialogue. No background. Zilch. That's why I say EU needs to expand on him more.

norrinradd43

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
That's why I say EU needs to expand on him more. Agreed

S_W_LeGenD

@ Ultra Omega

Darth Sion is good. He cheated death, which is very impressive and this is what makes him a dangerous foe.

Even than, Darth Sidious is considerably more powerful and experienced than Darth Sion.

I know that the only way to defeat Darth Sion is by eroding his will. But to do that, Darth Sidious will have to use the art of Dun Moch.

Dun Moch is actually a perfect art to use in single combat situations to confuse or demoralize or even motivate enemies. Darth Vader was adept in the art of Dun Moch and he was actually the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so we can logically deduce that Darth Sidious would also be good at using Dun Moch.

Hence it is not impossible for Darth Sidious to erode the will of Darth Sion by using the combination of Dun Moch along with over-powering him through the Force.

And during the duel, Darth Sion will eventually understand that he can't defeat Darth Sidious. So he eventually might give up.

After-all the case of his duel against Jedi Exile was also similar.

By the time he faced Jedi Exile for the second time, he realized that Jedi Exile had become tough and experienced and hence it was getting difficult for him to sub-due her in combat and Jedi Exile actually used Dun Moch on him to convince him to give up.

So what do you say?

Captain REX

Ultra Omega, please don't write so much. It's rather an eyesore and all you do is babble...

Keep this thread civil, gentlemen.

GahLakTus

Now i hope the kotor comics will reveal who nihilus is and who the jedi exile is.

Maybe jarael? I have a thing for pointy ears

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ Ultra Omega

Darth Sion is good. He cheated death, which is very impressive and this is what makes him a dangerous foe.

Even than, Darth Sidious is considerably more powerful and experienced than Darth Sion.

I know that the only way to defeat Darth Sion is by eroding his will. But to do that, Darth Sidious will have to use the art of Dun Moch.

Dun Moch is actually a perfect art to use in single combat situations to confuse or demoralize or even motivate enemies. Darth Vader was adept in the art of Dun Moch and he was actually the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so we can logically deduce that Darth Sidious would also be good at using Dun Moch.

Hence it is not impossible for Darth Sidious to erode the will of Darth Sion by using the combination of Dun Moch along with over-powering him through the Force.

And during the duel, Darth Sion will eventually understand that he can't defeat Darth Sidious. So he eventually might give up.

After-all the case of his duel against Jedi Exile was also similar.

By the time he faced Jedi Exile for the second time, he realized that Jedi Exile had become tough and experienced and hence it was getting difficult for him to sub-due her in combat and Jedi Exile actually used Dun Moch on him to convince him to give up.

So what do you say? Or he could spam Force Lightning until Sion walks away crying.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ Ultra Omega

Darth Sion is good. He cheated death, which is very impressive and this is what makes him a dangerous foe.

Even than, Darth Sidious is considerably more powerful and experienced than Darth Sion.

I know that the only way to defeat Darth Sion is by eroding his will. But to do that, Darth Sidious will have to use the art of Dun Moch.

Dun Moch is actually a perfect art to use in single combat situations to confuse or demoralize or even motivate enemies. Darth Vader was adept in the art of Dun Moch and he was actually the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so we can logically deduce that Darth Sidious would also be good at using Dun Moch.

Hence it is not impossible for Darth Sidious to erode the will of Darth Sion by using the combination of Dun Moch along with over-powering him through the Force.

And during the duel, Darth Sion will eventually understand that he can't defeat Darth Sidious. So he eventually might give up.

After-all the case of his duel against Jedi Exile was also similar.

By the time he faced Jedi Exile for the second time, he realized that Jedi Exile had become tough and experienced and hence it was getting difficult for him to sub-due her in combat and Jedi Exile actually used Dun Moch on him to convince him to give up.

So what do you say?

Probably the most objective argument out of any Sidious supporter here, so good job!

But, there are two reason why I generally don't agree with your conclusion:

1. Nothing suggests that Sidious is actually more powerful than Sion in any sense.

2. Being a Master of Dun Moch is great and all, but Sion does not have an inherently weak will. He only lost the will to continue fighting because of Traya, and the fact that she cared more for her than she did for Sion. Sidious would not be able to exploit this advantage.

But, again, I can at least respect your argument; nicely done!

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Or he could spam Force Lightning until Sion walks away crying.

My turn:

Or, Sion could run up to Sidious and stab him in the heart. Sion FTW!

Oh wow, this is fun!

Pwned61

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

wait, I'm not getting your argument at all, how does Sion's one ability (the nature of which is far from ordinary) translate into having power on par with the likes of Sidious.

I mean, Sion may have only died in his fight with the exile because he chose to, but that doesn't change the fact that the exile would have put him down a few times before that. Doesn't that seem to indicate that he lacked any sort of martial advantage over the exile (who isn't exactly a powerhouse) and instead was relying on his ability to revive himself? I'd imagine that if the exile can put him down a few times on her own, then I don't see it being more than an afterthought for someone like Sidious.

Also, what exactly would Sion do should Sidious separate a limb from his body and TK it away?

Ultra Omega

I would actually go a step further, and say that it translates into him being a good level above Sidious.

Fact: The ability makes him unstoppable in a battle scenario.

Fact: The ability is exclusive to Sion, which indicates an exceptional level of power.

Aside from the ability, he's displayed some exceptional speed in combat, and his battle prowess can be argued as greater than Sidious', given him being the deadliest out of a group of Sith Assassin, that were stated as being Masters of all sorts of combat techniques.

Argument from personal incredulity, Logical Fallacy. You have no proof whatsoever in putting Sidious above The Exile. Not only is she made out to be an exceptional prodigy when mastering forms of combat exceptionally quickly, but her unique nature meant that she drew power from whoever she killed in battle, which was in the hundreds, indicating great power in the force.

Also, as you claim, the need to defend himself isn't really there, given that he could simply rely on his ability to protect him. Thus, constantly getting struck down doesn't make him an inherently weak duelist or anything, he just doesn't have the need that others would in defending himself.

Sion is resistant to such damage. His body remains perfectly together both after a full on Onslaught from Darth Nihilus (who is certainly more powerful than Darth Sidious) and during each cutscene that follows The Exile striking him with her lightsaber.

Also, again, nothing indicates that Sidious would be on a level above him in either battle prowess of force strength to achieve such a thing. I could just turn the question around, and it would have the same effect as your's; none. Supports your points and substantiate them, or don't bother replying.

Darth Sexy

I see Noobaris is back on this forum with his usual "ignore logic, canon, and common sense while repeating the same defeated argument continuously".

GahLakTus

His arguement gets destroyed by the majority of us and he still insists on going on.

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Fact: The ability makes him unstoppable in a battle scenario. Even tho Nihilus in cut content(which never happened only because they had a timeline to keep) easily pwned him with Force Lightning(Sidious' speciality) and had Sion walking away with sniffles about how his mommy(Traya) doesn't love him anymore and how Nihilus is a big bully? That's right.

Sidious was STATED to be THE most powerful Sith EVA!!!!

Ultra Omega

Fixed, and the fact that lightning is Sidious' speciality means nothing, given Nihilus is a good few leagues above him in force ability.

What are you talking about?

As has already been said, Nihilus is a cosmic being, and most (if not all) would get owned like Sion did. Difference is, they wouldn't get up with their body completely intact like Sion did.

No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious.

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Fixed, and the fact that lightning is Sidious' speciality means nothing, given Nihilus is a good few leagues above him in force ability.

What are you talking about?

As has already been said, Nihilus is a cosmic being, and most (if not all) would get owned like Sion did. Difference is, they wouldn't get up with their body completely intact like Sion did.

No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious. 1. Okay, you are right, he used a combo of Force Lightning, Force Drain(both at the same time in fact), and then thru him while still doing both(which is really KEWL!). Even so, Sidious>Nihilus, fact.

2. Sion is a big emo pussy.

3. Lol, Nihilus let him live, he could have easily ended his "immortality".

4. Yeah, he was canonically stated in several things to be>any Sith, and even GL himself said it I believe. I would love to agree with you on this, believe me, but logic and reason prevents me.

Pwned61

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I would actually go a step further, and say that it translates into him being a good level above Sidious.

Fact: The ability makes him unstoppable in a battle scenario.

Fact: The ability is exclusive to Sion, which indicates an exceptional level of power.

How does the power make him unstoppable, you never provided any proof that he could function should he simply be decapitated, or that he can somehow use this power indefinitely. Also, the power by it's nature affects only Sion himself, therefor the amount of force engeries expended can't possibly compare to Sidious using the force at a planetary scale, as Gideion said Sion's ability speaks more for his will or control of the force rather than his raw power.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Aside from the ability, he's displayed some exceptional speed in combat, and his battle prowess can be argued as greater than Sidious', given him being the deadliest out of a group of Sith Assassin, that were stated as being Masters of all sorts of combat techniques.

His only show of skill in combat that we see is when he hacks a hand off of Traya, who's never been shown to posses any kind of impressive ability in close quarters combat.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Argument from personal incredulity, Logical Fallacy. You have no proof whatsoever in putting Sidious above The Exile. Not only is she made out to be an exceptional prodigy when mastering forms of combat exceptionally quickly, but her unique nature meant that she drew power from whoever she killed in battle, which was in the hundreds, indicating great power in the force.

Nothing about the exile implies that she was any kind of powerhouse. At the very least she wouldn't have surpassed Yoda (stated to be the strongest jedi ever) who in turn was unable to overcome sidious.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Also, as you claim, the need to defend himself isn't really there, given that he could simply rely on his ability to protect him. Thus, constantly getting struck down doesn't make him an inherently weak duelist or anything, he just doesn't have the need that others would in defending himself.

What a load, you have no proof that he was holding back at all, in fact, considering his considerable blood lust and hate when Jedi are involved, it seems far fetched that he would hold back on anyone aside from Kreia herself.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Sion is resistant to such damage. His body remains perfectly together both after a full on Onslaught from Darth Nihilus (who is certainly more powerful than Darth Sidious) and during each cutscene that follows The Exile striking him with her lightsaber.

So, using your logic, anyone who walks out of a fight in KOTOR without looking different must posses Sion's ability, since no character's model changes after a fight. Any

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Also, again, nothing indicates that Sidious would be on a level above him in either battle prowess of force strength to achieve such a thing. I could just turn the question around, and it would have the same effect as your's; none. Supports your points and substantiate them, or don't bother replying.

Force ability: Besides being stated to be the strongest (which for most people would be enough), he's also got huge displays of force power on a planetary level

Battle prowess: He faced a team of 4 Jedi masters, all of whom were hailed as being among the best the order had ever produced, and he killed all but 1 of them.

Pwned61

Lightsnake

Throw 'Death Star' and Heritage of the Sith on that list.

Nebaris, can you STOP doing this just a short time after we reach a consensus?

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious. Yes he was, Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Now you know comics so you'll be well versed in people calling narrative hyperbole. Take into note these feats along with those quotes:

Palpatine learned a Force Storm. It is is an attack that rips apart the fabric of existence and space-time. It can do everything from create a wormhole to move a person lightyears to ravage the surface of a planet to annihilate starfleets. Palpatine uses Force lightning with enough power to kill 100 augmented Strormtroopers effortlessly. Same lightning reduced 3 dark siders strong enough to resurrect Darth Maul to charred skeletons.

His force storm is far more powerful than nihilus bond breaking ability.

Oh and what happens when sidious uses the fallanasi technique? His bond gets hidden, nihilus cannot see/sense/touch/destroy it and then sidious can just proceed to kill him

@Pwned61

I think the exile is powerful as of kotor 2 but not exactly a powerhouse seeing she killed the 3 sith lords under circumstances

Violent2Dope

Well, she certainly killed Sion and Nihilus because of circumstances, but I don't think there were any when she killed Traya.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1. Okay, you are right, he used a combo of Force Lightning, Force Drain(both at the same time in fact), and then thru him while still doing both(which is really KEWL!). Even so, Sidious>Nihilus, fact.

No, it's not.

Yes, and what exactly does Traya have to do with how Nihilus overpowered him?

As unsupported as it gets. Nihilus wouldn't have been letting him live yet dish out the mega ownage that he had just dished out. He was clearly going for the kill.

No, what prevents you is popular consensus. As much is obvious. Anyway, didn't you ever stop and consider that Nihilus doesn't truly qualify as a Sith (none of the KotOR Sith Lords do)? Nowhere in canon is Revan's Order (which is essentially what the Sith Triumvirate was spawned from) shown to have been ordained by any previous Sith Lord, or shown to be anything more than simple pretenders. The fact that the "True Sith" were still around whilst the Sith Triumvirate were in power, yet had no proper alliance with them, would suggest that they were, at best, pseudo Sith. Now, prove that Nihilus qualifies as a True Sith Lord, and then supply all these canon quotes that supposedly prove that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Well, she certainly killed Sion and Nihilus because of circumstances, but I don't think there were any when she killed Traya.

That would be correct. If anything, the Exile likely wouldn't have wanted to kill her former Mentor. Traya, however, quite clearly had no such problems, given that she wanted to know that the Exile was stronger than her so that she might have a chance against the True Sith.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Pwned61
How does the power make him unstoppable, you never provided any proof that he could function should he simply be decapitated, or that he can somehow use this power indefinitely.

Occam's Razor. Nihilus, he who has displayed the most destructive use of the force in the entire Mythos, unleashed a full on force onslaught onto Sion, and his entire body remained intact. The same goes with each cutscene that follows the Exile striking him down with her lightsaber.

LMAO. Ignore how concentrated the force would have to be on its target why don't you. By your logic, Dooku's lightning expends as much force energy as Palpatine's simply because the scale remains the same.

Again, as said to Gideon, pure ability means jack. Sion possessed so much speed that he was able to slice off her hand in one move. The only factors, on her part, that would prevent such a thing would be speed and reaction time, both which draw from the force, which she has been shown to possess extraordinary ability with.

Did you not read my post? Her extreme learning rate and incredible force strength (augmented by every single person she ever killed) indicates as much. The fact that she was strong enough to defeat Traya after fighting through an entire Academy of darksiders and battle droids, as well as having to beat down Sion a few good times indicates as much.

Wrong. Firstly, that statement doesn't exist, and secondly, the Exile wasn't officially a Jedi at the time. The Order had disbanded, and she was somewhat of a grey Jedi.

Please try and read my arguments properly. I didn't say he would be holding back or anything, but that defending himself wouldn't exactly be his #1 priority.

Anyone who was confirmed through dialogue to have been struck down with a lightsaber, yes. And that would be... oh, just Sion.

Not only do those statements not actually exist, but absence of proof is not proof of absence. He may display more, however he's also been in far more sources. Displaying more itself doesn't mean that he's more powerful.

Speaks nothing for his pure prowess. It was his speed that enabled him to do such a thing. Know what you're talking about.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

As unsupported as it gets. Nihilus wouldn't have been letting him live yet dish out the mega ownage that he had just dished out. He was clearly going for the kill.

Your clearly wrong. If nihilus were to kill him he would have done so by simply breaking the bond between sion and the force which is his "special technique" which he used on the people of katarr.

Oops how i forgot that with no connection to the force sions "invincibility" is pretty damm useless, even a simple force sever can block off sions control to the force which luke,nihilus and sidious can easily do

GahLakTus

Darth Sexy

Noobaris, there's a reason you've been banned more than 10 times. You can't debate, hell you can't even offer a convincing argument, and yet you sound like a broken record with your useless text.

Ultra Omega

1. Kreia was in a fighting stance, moron.

2. Sia Lan Wezz is no Kreia in force ability. Vader is no Sion in speed.

3. Darth Nihilus did use his sever connection ability against Sion, as indicated by the orange energy.

4. Darth Nihilus' sever connection ability attacks one's force connection. Yet it did nothing against Sion. He was able to resist it. So clearly simply cutting him off from the force isn't so easy.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
1. Kreia was in a fighting stance, moron.

2. Sia Lan Wezz is no Kreia in force ability. Vader is no Sion in speed.

3. Darth Nihilus did use his sever connection ability against Sion, as indicated by the orange energy.

4. Darth Nihilus' sever connection ability attacks one's force connection. Yet it did nothing against Sion. He was able to resist it. So clearly simply cutting him off from the force isn't so easy.

Except for the fact that you have no knowledge of Sion's speed, so to assume he's faster than Vader would further debunk your already poorly constructed argumented.

3 and 4 would be considered correct if they weren't n-canon..

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
1. Kreia was in a fighting stance, moron. But was she prepared is the real question
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

2. Sia Lan Wezz is no Kreia in force ability. Vader is no Sion in speed.
That was not the claim, your original claim was that "zomg he hacked of kreias hand it means hes a god". Im just using your fallible horrible analogy against you. Oh and wheres the proof sion is faster than vader? Oh right how i forgot vader dodged a blaster bolt travelling at the speed of the bullet after it was fired directly infront of him. Source: Emprie comics.

Ask jolly jim for the link but oh well hes not here

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

3. Darth Nihilus did use his sever connection ability against Sion, as indicated by the orange energy. Uh no, he did the same thing to kreia but wheres the orange lightning? Sorry but his force breaking ability is invisible, it cannot be seen unlike normal force attacks save for crush,choke etc . He merely used a life drain to toy around with sion, why would he try to kill sion when he needs sion to do the dirty work, when sion aided him in beating the shit out of kreia, when sion and nihilus have the same goals wanting to destroy the jedi, nihilus is no idiot to waste a very useful and powerful ally.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

4. Darth Nihilus' sever connection ability attacks one's force connection. Yet it did nothing against Sion. He was able to resist it. So clearly simply cutting him off from the force isn't so easy. Prove he used it against sion, seeing i refuted your baseless claims

Again that orange lightning isn't the force bond breaking technique seeing that his "sever force" is invisible when he used it against kreia, when he stripped her off her powers.

You fail

S_W_LeGenD

His force storm is far more powerful than nihilus bond breaking ability.
Are you serious?

I have yet to see a Force technique that has caused as much devastation as Nihilus' Super Force Feeding technique did in a single go. His attack destroyed an entire planet.

That is like an attack from a Super-Weapon.

At-the-least it rivals Palpatine's Force Storm (Worm-hole) technique in terms of causing destruction, though the nature of these two Force techniques are highly different.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

At-the-least it rivals Palpatine's Force Storm (Worm-hole) technique in terms of causing destruction.

Actually, Palpatine's force storms bends the fabric of space, destroys entire fleets, hell it could ravage planets if he wished it so. You're wrong.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually, Palpatine's force storms bends the fabric of space, destroys entire fleets, hell it could ravage planets if he wished it so. You're wrong.
Nihilus's Super Force Severing attack can spread to such a scale that it can cause destruction on a planetary scale, kill all kinds of life-forms, shatter structures, feed on the deaths it causes and it does all this really fast.

In short, Nihilus just spoke and a planet was dead soon after-wards.

And destroying a planet > destroying a fleet by a considerable margin.

Though since Palpatine's Force Storm can bend fabric of space, so that makes it possibly the most dangerous technique but Nihilus' Super Force Severing technique does rivals it in terms of causing death and destruction. So I am not wrong.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by GahLakTus
But was she prepared is the real question

...

She held her vibroblade in a stance, ergo she was prepared.

Nice Strawman. I didn't say it made him a God, I said that it makes his speed extremely impressive, considering the extent of Kreia's force ability, and more importantly, her precognition levels.

I simply pointed out what Sion did. That's not an analogy.

Being able to defeat a force user as powerful as Traya in one move purely through his speed. No other force user has displayed a level of speed that is too much for a combatant as powerful in the force as Traya to react to, except Luke against UnuThul.

I really don't see how this is supposed to be impressive, given TPM Obi-Wan is able to do the same, or rather, something greater, given he was dodging repeating fire from a droideka. He even moves at invisible speeds.

We don't even know that he used it on Traya. He might have, he might have not. I personally like to think so, and that the visuals are simply inconsistent, but either way, it doesn't matter.

What we do know, however, for absolutely sure is that he used it against the Exile, and there was visible energy of an orange colour coming out of his finger tips and spreading towards Sion, essentially collapsing your argument.

Apparently you missed the entire concept behind Nihilus. He had one goal, and one goal only; to satisfy his hunger. He didn't give a shit about the Jedi or needing allies, he simply went where his hunger took him and fed. All he needed, was himself, his ship, and his crew.

As I already said, if he didn't want to kill Sion, he wouldn't have attacked him with a combination of four powers at the same time. A simple use of TK would keep him away just fine.

You can't refute shit fool.

Already "refuted."

I may fail, but you, sir, phail.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually, Palpatine's force storms bends the fabric of space, destroys entire fleets, hell it could ravage planets if he wished it so. You're wrong.

You're ignoring the sheer scale of Nihilus' attack, Sexy one, along with the fact that the Force Storm is a power replicated by many, useless in a one-on-one situation, and an anomaly of a power in the sense that all you actually need to be able to summon one is knowledge of the ability. No power, or control required. I Can post a quote from the Tales of the Jedi Companion if you wish; it's under the power's very description.

Violent2Dope

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, it's not.

Yes, and what exactly does Traya have to do with how Nihilus overpowered him?

As unsupported as it gets. Nihilus wouldn't have been letting him live yet dish out the mega ownage that he had just dished out. He was clearly going for the kill.

No, what prevents you is popular consensus. As much is obvious. Anyway, didn't you ever stop and consider that Nihilus doesn't truly qualify as a Sith (none of the KotOR Sith Lords do)? Nowhere in canon is Revan's Order (which is essentially what the Sith Triumvirate was spawned from) shown to have been ordained by any previous Sith Lord, or shown to be anything more than simple pretenders. The fact that the "True Sith" were still around whilst the Sith Triumvirate were in power, yet had no proper alliance with them, would suggest that they were, at best, pseudo Sith. Now, prove that Nihilus qualifies as a True Sith Lord, and then supply all these canon quotes that supposedly prove that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. 1. Yeah, it is.

2. Sion is always crying over his mommy like the insecure girl he is.

3. Lol, he could of used his Force Breaking attack and ended it, and orange lightning =/=Force Break, it was Force Drain.

4. The quotes have been provided. Nihilus had the mantle Dark Lord of the Sith, and is regarded as a true Sith Lord, by the likes of Bane, that other guy Krayt summoned, and Krayt(who they deemed a pretender).

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except for the fact that you have no knowledge of Sion's speed,

Please try not to fall asleep at the keyboard Sexy. If you had actually stayed awake, you might have seen the evidence I had provided, in the form of Sion one hit defeating Traya in combat through his pure speed alone. So... Sion is one fast mofo indeed.

How exactly would a non progression of an argument debunk the rest of it? You make no sense.

As V2K said, they're only N-Canon because of time restraints, meaning they may not be a part of the continuity, but they perfectly reflect the Game Producer's vision, and act as a perfect representation of their powers.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

...

She held her vibroblade in a stance, ergo she was prepared.
Really? But again cutting her hands off when she is off guard counts as a big ass feat?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Nice Strawman. I didn't say it made him a God, I said that it makes his speed extremely impressive, considering the extent of Kreia's force ability, and more importantly, her precognition levels. Yet you make it seem so, your original claim that sion so called extremely talented with the saber was because he hacked of kreias hand quickly.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I simply pointed out what Sion did. That's not an analogy.
And you indirectly label him a god by doing so.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Being able to defeat a force user as powerful as Traya in one move purely through his speed. No other force user has displayed a level of speed that is too much for a combatant as powerful in the force as Traya to react to, except Luke against UnuThul. Uh yes, lord nyax, sidious in dark empire, and vader himself has demonstrated "incredible speed". How does hacking ones hand of make him "incredibly quick", do you actually have any proof she completely for saw what he was going to do? And kreia was there to merely distract him so that the exile and atton could escape, nothing indicated she was even going to attempt to fight him considering the fact that she herself wants out the station

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I really don't see how this is supposed to be impressive, given TPM Obi-Wan is able to do the same, or rather, something greater, given he was dodging repeating fire from a droideka. He even moves at invisible speeds. Because you made the ridiculous claim "Oh sion hacked of kreia's arm fast so it means he is the fastest swordsman".
I really don't see how this is supposed to be impressive

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

We don't even know that he used it on Traya. He might have, he might have not. I personally like to think so, and that the visuals are simply inconsistent, but either way, it doesn't matter.
Tell me smart ass, what does a force sever manifests itself as? Thats right nothing. And kreia said that when she got attacked by nihilus, her powers were stripped from her and we see her trying to call out to the force to grab her saber but she couldn,t. Oh right i forgot, her control to her powers has been cut off by his forcer sever.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

What we do know, however, for absolutely sure is that he used it against the Exile, and there was visible energy of an orange colour coming out of his finger tips and spreading towards Sion, essentially collapsing your argument. How do you know it was his bond breaking ability? embarrasment

. The more important thing to take into account is he feeds on the death he caused, and he can caused death via by any means, technology, force attacks. He isn't limited to using one technique because the exile herself feeds on the death she has caused according to the jedi masters.

Oh right if nihilus force sever didn't work if he actually used it, then why were the 3 inferior jedi masters, whom are all combined still no match for nihilus, nearly succeed in permanently cutting her off the force? Why?

Because that orange atatck is not his force severing ability. Again a force sever technique DOES NOT manifest itself as orange lightning as we have seen throughout various comics and sources.

Oh right i remember he destroyed katarr, wheres the orange lightning?, when he attacked kreia, wheres the orange lightning?

I remember no orange lightning when luke cut palpatine of the force, neither was there orange lightning when ulic got cut off, or the exile before kotor.

Your original claim is nihilus used the force sever technique on the exile and manifests itself as orange lightning which is totally unproven seeing there is NOTHING to back your claims

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Apparently you missed the entire concept behind Nihilus. He had one goal, and one goal only; to satisfy his hunger. He didn't give a shit about the Jedi or needing allies, he simply went where his hunger took him and fed. All he needed, was himself, his ship, and his crew.
And prove that he tried to cut sions ability off.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

As I already said, if he didn't want to kill Sion, he wouldn't have attacked him with a combination of four powers at the same time. A simple use of TK would keep him away just fine.
Your an idiot you know that nebaris? Firstly if he was able to effortlessly cut kreia of the force whom is superior to sion, i don't see why he would have any problems doing it to sion, some one inferior to both kreia and himself where it would be easier to cut him off the force

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

You can't refute shit fool. I have already done it again. And more importantly, can you? From whay iv seen, no you can't. You don't take canonical statements into accounts and ignore canon. You can't even back up your ridiculous claims and all you ever do is speculate. Hell even legend, the most bias kotor fan can form better arguements than you and at the least back up some of his claims while you on the otherhand don't.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Already "refuted."
Sure did

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I may fail, but you, sir, phail. You may fail? Your being delusional, you have already failed so the failure is yours

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
You're ignoring the sheer scale of Nihilus' attack, Sexy one, along with the fact that the Force Storm is a power replicated by many, useless in a one-on-one situation, and an anomaly of a power in the sense that all you actually need to be able to summon one is knowledge of the ability. No power, or control required. I Can post a quote from the Tales of the Jedi Companion if you wish; it's under the power's very description.

You DO know that the force storm in DESB and TOTJ are two completely different things right? Again who in TOTJ demonstrated palpatines force storm? Thats right NOBODY.

And who are the ones who have "replicated" palpatines force storm. Hell even wookiepedia says your wrong and common sense.

And no power and control required? You certeinly are an idiot, its been stated that the smaller the storms palpatine create the easier it becomes to control the technique.

I guess boba fett would have no problem replicating this feat as it requires only knowledge according to the almight nebaris

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1. Yeah, it is.

How about supporting that silly, silly claim, which you've yet to do.

Hilarious, really.

Force breaking? So we're actually making up names for powers now, are we?

And you're wrong, the orange energy is identical to that he used against the Exile, which was his connection sever ability.

Copy and paste them, then, and do it now boy.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that there were actually Ancient Sith still in action at the time. In fact, Revan's Sith Empire was essentially built to destroy the True Sith at the time. They wouldn't truly qualify as Sith, based on that fact alone. They were not taught or deemed worth of Sithdom by any other Sith before them. Nothing suggests that they were anything more than pretenders. So, time to prove up V2K.

As for your claim that Bane and Andeddu regarded him as a true Sith Lord; prove it. Do it now. Last time I checked, they didn't even make mention of Nihilus, and focused on Krayt. Just because they didn't actually directly go against Nihilus, it doesn't mean they didn't think of him as a pretender.

And even if such was the case, since when does having a couple of Sith respect you automatically make you a genuine Sith Lord? Go back to Darth Krayt for instance; he's actually a genuine Sith, given he was trained and deemed a Sith by an Ancient Sith Lord, so clearly Bane and Andeddu don't quite set the precedent for what it takes to be a true Sith Lord, anyways.

Really, too many faults with your argument V2k.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Really? But again cutting her hands off when she is off guard counts as a big ass feat?

First, quit with the off guard bullshit. She was in a battle stance. She was prepared; she was ready.

And it counts as a big ass feat because it's not shown to happen again (to a force user of Traya's caliber) except in one circumstance: with Luke Skywalker. If not so powerful people possessed speed great enough to overpower someone with the precognitive abilities and force strength of Kreia in one move, it would be more often repeated, is my point.

No, I never mentioned anything about talent, but overall battle prowess.

Lol. I indirectly labelled him a God? So, posting evidence of his incredible prowess indirectly labels him a God? Right. The fact that you would interpret such a thing would suggest that you find what I mentioned highly impressive, anyway.

Oh how I love debating with people who don't know how to read.

I never said that Luke was the only other who displayed incredible speed, I said Luke was the only other to completely overpower a combatant in one move with force ability on Traya's level.

Because hacked hand belonged to Traya, force titan with unrivalled precognitive ability.

Given she possesses precognition, that would be yes. Point is, with Sion's speed, it didn't make the slightest difference.

Indeed. She was there to distract him. Now how exactly was she going to do that, Galactus? Strip naked and give him a lap dance? No, more like she was going to distract him from the others by engaging him in combat. As evident by how she slowly approaches him... And goes into a battle stance when he reaches her.

Strawman argument.

Perhaps if you opened your eyes a little, you might.

Have you not even read my entire post? As seen against the Exile, it manifests as Orange energy. Though that could purely be for the gamers benefit, in the same sense that healing has blue circles appear around the healed. But, as far as the Game cinematics are concerned: Orange Energy.

As I've already said, I feel it likely that that is what Nihilus actually did do on her, and there are simply inconsistencies with the visuals. However, if you're gonna try and deny that, your argument can easily be countered by the facts that she could have been talking about her status as the head of the Sith Triumverate when she mentioned that her power s were stripped from her, and as for not being able to bring back her lightsaber to her, such could be explained by the fact that she would have been physically exhausted by that point. Further supporting that point is how she is able to use her powers later on, and even have some with her TK, despite not being able to move her saber (if her powers were completely removed, there would have been no effect).

Or, it could have simply been the standard force sever ability. Either way, as it stands, your argument has some serious holes in it.

Because he was desperate for some energy to satisfy his hunger for a little longer, and the way in which the Exile's wound in the force nature weakens him. This is because the Exile's force presence is fractured, and not whole, and the only reason why such a thing would have weakened Nihilus would be if he were drawing energy from the Exile, which is what his connection sever ability does.

Don't be embarrassed little guy.

Again, you don't quite understand what Nihilus does. He forms bonds between living beings, and then attacks their life and force connections. and feeds on the damage caused.

Why? Because, and you apparently don't get this, you're dealing with two completely different techniques here. Nihilus' technique attacks the force that exists within the Exile, and feeds on it. The force that exists within the Exiles is damaged, and thus had the opposite effect on Nihilus than the one he was looking for. The force sever ability doesn't draw anything into its user, but simply destroys their force connection.

As I already said, it might simply be purely for the viewer to see rather than what is actually visible in the setting, much like healing. And even if that were not the case, it's not unknown for different forms of mediums to represent things differently.

Already dealt with.

All dealt with above.

Already backed up.

It's evident through the orange energy.

Kreia more powerful than Sion? LOL. I love how you proved that.

As for Nihilus, yes, he's more powerful than Sion, but the point is, Sion is able to resist attacks to such a degree that he remains mostly unaffected even when they're delivered from a more powerful foe. That's the entire point about Sion. He excels at keeping himself alive and resisting damage.

No, you haven't, and no, I have. Read above.

Hell even Legend? From what I've seen, Legend can present an argument with an infinite more amount of intelligence and ability than you can, so I really don't see why you're bringing him up as if you're somehow better than he.

Sure didn't.

Brilliant finish. Seriously, your wit truly just blows me away. Wonderful.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by GahLakTus
You DO know that the force storm in DESB and TOTJ are two completely different things right? Again who in TOTJ demonstrated palpatines force storm? Thats right NOBODY.

I was referring to the TotJ Companion, which details the exact same Force Storm that is seen in Dark Empire. Yes, the very one that ravages space and time.

Replicated was the wrong word. What I meant, was that many have been stated to have known it, those people being Nadd, numerous Ancient Sith and numerous Ancient Jedi.

It's not my fault if you're ignorant on the material. The technique is stated to grant the user a certain level of control over the storm.

Apparently I need to elaborate for the retarded.

The power is activated by focusing onto a certain part of one's body with force energies. Possess knowledge of that certain spot, and you can summon the force storm. Once summoned, the storm provides the user a certain level of control over it. It appears that the level of control granted depends on willpower and depth of hatred, according to Palpatine's words.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Again, you're ignoring the fact that there were actually Ancient Sith still in action at the time. In fact, Revan's Sith Empire was essentially built to destroy the True Sith at the time. They wouldn't truly qualify as Sith, based on that fact alone. They were not taught or deemed worth of Sithdom by any other Sith before them. Nothing suggests that they were anything more than pretenders. So, time to prove up V2K.

I have to ask you,if you don't consider Revan to be a true sith lord than you can't consider any other sith who followed after him to be a true sith including the likes of Dooku,Maul,Kaan and Darth Bane since they not have an sith from the ancient times of the sith empire declare them one.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Please try not to fall asleep at the keyboard Sexy. If you had actually stayed awake, you might have seen the evidence I had provided, in the form of Sion one hit defeating Traya in combat through his pure speed alone. So... Sion is one fast mofo indeed.
After 10+ bans and countless wtfpwns, you still have the temerity to waste everybody's time and embarass yourself doing it. Since your argument has yet again been pwned and you are in a need of a reality check, I'll chime in.

I didn't know you were an authority on "speed", or the author of KOTOR, or even ANYBODY credible to interpret the fight as "Sion won with speed alone", and "Sion is one fast mofo". Since there's no real evidence of this, you're an idiot.

Someone that doesn't know how to debate or the meaning of "argument", shouldn't be using big words he doesn't understand. Imagine your "argument" is a squirrel, and I ran up behind you and kicked you over the fence. Pwned, wtfpwned, debunked, call it what you'd like because they all apply.

And as canon policy is stated, n-canon=n-canon. Your constant ability to argue with pure canon makes you look more ridiculous than ever.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have to ask you,if you don't consider Revan to be a true sith lord than you can't consider any other sith who followed after him to be a true sith including the likes of Dooku,Maul,Kaan and Darth Bane since they not have an sith from the ancient times of the sith empire declare them one.

Do you honestly believe Noobaris knows what he's talking about? Ever?

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do you honestly believe Noobaris knows what he's talking about? Ever?

In his own mind yes he does, to us no he doesn't.

Pwned61

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Occam's Razor. Nihilus, he who has displayed the most destructive use of the force in the entire Mythos, unleashed a full on force onslaught onto Sion, and his entire body remained intact. The same goes with each cutscene that follows the Exile striking him down with her lightsaber.

Nihilus is the most destructive force power? Are you forgetting Sidious' storms? Nihilus' technique kills individuals (if that's even the tech he used), but it does not have the pure destructive power of Sidious' storms. Besides all that, is that scene even cannon, considering that it was cut from the game.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

LMAO. Ignore how concentrated the force would have to be on its target why don't you. By your logic, Dooku's lightning expends as much force energy as Palpatine's simply because the scale remains the same.

How are they even remotely on the same scale? Forgetting the storms, Sidious' once killed 100 stormtroopers in a singe power burst.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Again, as said to Gideon, pure ability means jack. Sion possessed so much speed that he was able to slice off her hand in one move. The only factors, on her part, that would prevent such a thing would be speed and reaction time, both which draw from the force, which she has been shown to possess extraordinary ability with.

show me where it says that simply having powerful force potential gave you amazing pre-cog or speed without having to refine the technique.

Also show me where it's implied that Traya herself possessed speed that was worth a damn, because if she didn't then Sion out pacing her is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Did you not read my post? Her extreme learning rate and incredible force strength (augmented by every single person she ever killed) indicates as much. The fact that she was strong enough to defeat Traya after fighting through an entire Academy of darksiders and battle droids, as well as having to beat down Sion a few good times indicates as much.

Exactly how much was her force ability augmented by with each kill? What's more, how does anything about the exile even come close to comparing to the most powerful Sith lord in history. Your grasping at straws here, give her power some context if your going to claim that she's stronger than Sidious.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Wrong. Firstly, that statement doesn't exist, and secondly, the Exile wasn't officially a Jedi at the time. The Order had disbanded, and she was somewhat of a grey Jedi.

First off, the statement does exist (seriously, your ignorance of the source material only proves that even you don't believe the crap you spew), ROTS novelization, enjoy.

Secondly, the whole point of the KOTOR II lightside path was the exile reclaiming her title as a jedi, she's identified as such in other material, she is a jedi.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Please try and read my arguments properly. I didn't say he would be holding back or anything, but that defending himself wouldn't exactly be his #1 priority.

How about you post some actual evidence aside from your personal views on a characters state of mind for a change? Like a statement or something indicating that, as you say, he wasn't fully defending himself.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Anyone who was confirmed through dialogue to have been struck down with a lightsaber, yes. And that would be... oh, just Sion.

Now show me where it was stated that he was decapitated or had a limb severed and still got up.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Not only do those statements not actually exist, but absence of proof is not proof of absence. He may display more, however he's also been in far more sources. Displaying more itself doesn't mean that he's more powerful.

I've already said where the statements can be found, they clearly state that Sids is the strongest.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Speaks nothing for his pure prowess. It was his speed that enabled him to do such a thing. Know what you're talking about.

Pure speed alone would not be enough to overcome those master, especially not ones with their ability in combat. And even if it were all about speed, then you'll have to show me where Sion displays anywhere near the same.

Gideon

I merely find the notion of lying to protect one's online identity from being discovered as low. It's a move that resonates of desperation. Though, I will give Nebaris credit for milking every "loophole" he can access to try to defy canon. He'd make a decent lawyer, I'd wager.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Gideon
I merely find the notion of lying to protect one's online identity from being discovered as low. It's a move that resonates of desperation. Though, I will give Nebaris credit for milking every "loophole" he can access to try to defy canon. He'd make a decent lawyer, I'd wager.

Arguing against canon wouldn't make you a good lawyer Escape. A good lawyer is one who can interpret and manipulate the spirit of the law to his or her own end. Noobaris wouldn't be able to do this with all the luck in the world, since arguing against facts would generally be counterproductive.

Gideon

My apologies, Nebaris, but "those statements" do -- in fact -- exist; three separate ones from three separate sources off the top of my head, with my copy of the RotS novelization notwithstanding.

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76. Emphasis mine.

"...Yoda could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page ??? (I don't own the book). Emphasis mine.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72. Emphasis mine.

And before you go off reciting how the adjective is referring to Darth Sidious's political achievements -- the statement is made in the very beginning of the Attack of the Clones section. All he has done, at this point, has gotten himself elected Chancellor -- with relatively limited powers -- as this is before the manipulation of the Separatist crisis granted him unprecedented political latitude. Likewise, the Jedi Order is still functioning, as is the Republic, and the Empire is nonexistent. It is an obvious reference to power.

Likewise, here is a bit from Publius:

Addendums: The situation regarding the burial of the Lusankya were proven to be a direct result from "the Emperor's mind-fogging powers" (the Essential Guide to Characters, Ysanne Isard). Likewise, the Essential Chronology states that when the Star Destroyer tore itself from the planet, it killed "millions instantly" -- so Palpatine warped the minds of millions.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

And it counts as a big ass feat because it's not shown to happen again (to a force user of Traya's caliber) except in one circumstance: with Luke Skywalker. If not so powerful people possessed speed great enough to overpower someone with the precognitive abilities and force strength of Kreia in one move, it would be more often repeated, is my point.

Then i guess going by what you said, anakin is also saber god because he cut off mace windu's arm, somebody who tooled the most powerful sith lord in history.

Wow so cutting ones arm off is a big feat, then i guess yoda is superior to luke because he sent sidious flying

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

No, I never mentioned anything about talent, but overall battle prowess.
Because of one move

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Lol. I indirectly labelled him a God? So, posting evidence of his incredible prowess indirectly labels him a God?
You weren't posting evidence, you were speculating and using one feat which anybody could have done.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Right. The fact that you would interpret such a thing would suggest that you find what I mentioned highly impressive, anyway. No i don't

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Oh how I love debating with people who don't know how to read.
Debate? Can you even debate in the first place?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I never said that Luke was the only other who displayed incredible speed, I said Luke was the only other to completely overpower a combatant in one move with force ability on Traya's level. How was kreia "overpowered" exactly? By losing her once hand when she was caught off guard? I guess anakins a god then.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Because hacked hand belonged to Traya, force titan with unrivalled precognitive ability.
Force titan? Uh what after killing 3 weakling jedi masters with one move? After getting wtf owned by nihilus?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Given she possesses precognition, that would be yes. Point is, with Sion's speed, it didn't make the slightest difference.
Does it, if she really knew he was going to strike she wouldn't just be standing there wouldn't she? Oh i forgot they have been talking to each other for at the least a minute or so, ample time for her "precognition" to at the least hint to her that he is going to attack

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Indeed. She was there to distract him. Now how exactly was she going to do that, Galactus? Strip naked and give him a lap dance? No, more like she was going to distract him from the others by engaging him in combat. As evident by how she slowly approaches him... And goes into a battle stance when he reaches her. Now your key phrase "slowly approach" him backs my point up. If she "slowly approached" him, wouldn't it give her ample time for her "titan precognitive abilities" to tell her that he is going to strike her and that she should come up with a counter attack rather than stand there letting her cut her arm off?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Have you not even read my entire post? As seen against the Exile, it manifests as Orange energy. Though that could purely be for the gamers benefit, in the same sense that healing has blue circles appear around the healed. But, as far as the Game cinematics are concerned: Orange Energy.
. As seen on kreia, as seen on katarr, there was no orange lightning, and how is it for the gamers benefit that it is manifested as orange lightning when earlier in the game it shows kreia getting her connection cut off? Oh right there was no orange lightning when the 3 masters tried to cut the exile off the force when they nearly suceeded.

Because if i go by your horrible logic of using game cinematics, it wouldn't be the force sever technique at all, it would be a mere simple force drain

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

As I've already said, I feel it likely that that is what Nihilus actually did do on her, and there are simply inconsistencies with the visuals.
Sorry but the orange lightning used on the exile was a different technique seeing that there are countless sources to disprove it as a sever force technique. Dark empire, the sith war TOTJ, kreia vs nihilus.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

However, if you're gonna try and deny that, your argument can easily be countered by the facts that she could have been talking about her status as the head of the Sith Triumverate when she mentioned that her power s were stripped from her,
Anything to back you up?
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

and as for not being able to bring back her lightsaber to her, such could be explained by the fact that she would have been physically exhausted by that point.
Exhausted by? A force push? Wow some force titan
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Further supporting that point is how she is able to use her powers later on, and even have some with her TK, despite not being able to move her saber (if her powers were completely removed, there would have been no effect And who ever said a force sever is an immediate effect?
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Or, it could have simply been the standard force sever ability. Either way, as it stands, your argument has some serious holes in it.
And yours don't?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Because he was desperate for some energy to satisfy his hunger for a little longer, and the way in which the Exile's wound in the force nature weakens him. This is because the Exile's force presence is fractured, and not whole, and the only reason why such a thing would have weakened Nihilus would be if he were drawing energy from the Exile, which is what his connection sever ability does. /B] According to kreia, your wrong, he destroys the bond between his victims and the force, according to kreia they die because of that. Then he feeds on the death he caused and it isn't through any draining technique because the exile has the same ability to feed on the death she caused.

His sever connection ability does not "drain life out of somebody" but cutss them off the force

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Again, you don't quite understand what Nihilus does. He forms bonds between living beings, and then attacks their life and force connections. and feeds on the damage caused. He feeds on the death he caused, and you just said his "sever force" is what is draining their life energies. Contradiction is it.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Why? Because, and you apparently don't get this, you're dealing with two completely different techniques here. Nihilus' technique attacks the force that exists within the Exile, and feeds on it.

I think your the one not getting it, because as the almighty kreia said during the canon dialogues, he destroys the bond between life and the force then feed on the death it causes, not "attacks the force in somebody and feed on it".

Your wrong, period
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

The force that exists within the Exiles is damaged, and thus had the opposite effect on Nihilus than the one he was looking for. The force sever ability doesn't draw anything into its user, but simply destroys their force connection. And it does not manifest itself as orange lightning

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

As I already said, it might simply be purely for the viewer to see rather than what is actually visible in the setting, much like healing. And even if that were not the case, it's not unknown for different forms of mediums to represent things differently.
Or the fact that they could have used a "blue aura" engulfing around the exile destroying her connection which would have made more sense.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

It's evident through the orange energy.
Through speculation from nebaris which is un-proven.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Kreia more powerful than Sion? LOL. I love how you proved that.
If she is weaker than him, why did he bow down to her towards the end of the game and decided to be her apprentice and want to please her?

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

As for Nihilus, yes, he's more powerful than Sion, but the point is, Sion is able to resist attacks to such a degree that he remains mostly unaffected even when they're delivered from a more powerful foe. That's the entire point about Sion. He excels at keeping himself alive and resisting damage. Thats true but could he survive being pinned under debris if a superior force user buries him under it? Again that cut scene is non-canon. Doesn't sion need to be concious in order for his "invincibilty" to work? I can very well argue a superior force user can pull away all of his thoughts which will knock him out, as we have seen fay do it to assaji.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

No, you haven't, and no, I have. Read above.
Have you?

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

I was referring to the TotJ Companion, which details the exact same Force Storm that is seen in Dark Empire. Yes, the very one that ravages space and time. Funny that wookipedia says it only came from the dark empire source book, Please DO post a scan.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Replicated was the wrong word. What I meant, was that many have been stated to have known it, those people being Nadd, numerous Ancient Sith and numerous Ancient Jedi.
. Scan/quote please

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

It's not my fault if you're ignorant on the material. The technique is stated to grant the user a certain level of control over the storm.. You said "no control at all". Im going by what you said fool

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

The power is activated by focusing onto a certain part of one's body with force energies. Possess knowledge of that certain spot, and you can summon the force storm. Once summoned, the storm provides the user a certain level of control over it. It appears that the level of control granted depends on willpower and depth of hatred, according to Palpatine's words. And you forgot force mastery and control

Violent2Dope

When Kreia had her hand cut off, she wasn't even a remotely powerful Force user, cause, you know, Nihilus cut her off.

Ultra Omega

Wow, those are some longting posts. I'll get to most of them later, but because he was so incredibly rude, I think I'll get to Daft Hord's now.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have to ask you,if you don't consider Revan to be a true sith lord than you can't consider any other sith who followed after him to be a true sith including the likes of Dooku,Maul,Kaan and Darth Bane since they not have an sith from the ancient times of the sith empire declare them one.

Don't be daft, Hord. Clearly you have problems with reading, because if you didn't, you would have known that my argument for Revan and his Sith not being legitimate is supported by the following facts:

1. There was an entirely separate Order of darksiders in working order at the time, actual Ancient Sith, and there was no sense of communication between the two one bit.

2. Revan's Sith Order was built with the ultimate goal of combating the actual legitimate Sith.

Now, how exactly is any of that supposed to apply to the Sith Lords you just mentioned? Here's a hint: it doesn't.

As for Bane, and his Order, clearly you can't have read Bane of the Sith, where Bane -shortly before establishing the Rule of 2- actually studies out of a Holocron found in Nadd's tomb (either Nadd's Holocron, or an Ancient Sith's Holocron that Nadd would have learnt from). Holocrons generally contain more than just a gatekeeper, but a link to the actual spirit of the Gatekeeper, meaning it's extremely possible that Bane would have learnt directly from a true Sith Lord, and deemed worthy by one of them. Either way, George Lucas actually fully recognises Bane as a true Dark Lord of the Sith, meaning he is. The same would apply to his Order, including Dooku and Maul.

As for Kaan, I personally don't consider him a true Sith Lord, given how he rejected most of their teachings and philosophies and set up his own. I personally doubt the previous Sith Lords would have deemed him worthy. The whole of Path of Destruction heavily hints that he and his Order were pretenders.

So, to summarise: I'm right, you're wrong, you're an idiot, you're daft, and it's you who doesn't know what he's talking about... and you just got Pwned61

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
So, to summarise: I'm right, you're wrong, you're an idiot, you're daft, and it's you who doesn't know what he's talking about... and you just got Pwned61

This would make sense if you had EVER won an argument, EVER were right, and weren't constantly getting pwned and coming back for more. Denial=/=Reality.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Noobaris, doesn't it suck when you spend your entire life on this forum and can't win an argument?

GahLakTus

I just read this and wow i have no comments

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus's Super Force Severing attack can spread to such a scale that it can cause destruction on a planetary scale, kill all kinds of life-forms, shatter structures, feed on the deaths it causes and it does all this really fast.
How did nihilus force sever ability effect non living things really? How populated was katarr? How big was the planet.

Even wookiepedia states palpatines force storm > nihilus technique

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

In short, Nihilus just spoke and a planet was dead soon after-wards.
You are taking things too literally. Prove that he spoke then the planet died, he could have communicated with katarr telepathically and use the technique at the same time
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And destroying a planet > destroying a fleet by a considerable margin. He didn't destroy a planet, he destroyed what was on the planet. Palpatines force storm itself can cause far more damage than what nihilus has done seeing that palpatine destroyed a large portion of the coruscant surface
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Though since Palpatine's Force Storm can bend fabric of space, so that makes it possibly the most dangerous technique but Nihilus' Super Force Severing technique does rivals it in terms of causing death and destruction. So I am not wrong. No it does not, use nihilus "force sever" on a person and compare it to palpatine using storm on one person, see which causes more damage. Try using nihilus technique on a fleet of warships, it wont work, try nihilus technique on the eclipse, it wouldnt work whereas palpatines storm can do everything from ravaging a planets surface ,destroy the rebel armada, bend space and time and teleporting luke halfway across the galaxy.

Force storm beats force sever by a very large margin

Can nihilus force severing technique destroy space and time? No it can't,

There was at the least something left after nihilus attacked katarr whereas when palpatines storm struck there was nothing left seeing it all gets dissintigrated.

Right how i forgot wormholes/blackholes are stated to be the most destructive force in the universe

xxxpoppunker182

why are you guys trying to argue the point that omega is wrong? you can't argue with ignorance. Palpatine would rock Sion omega if you disagree well you're an idiot and after reading everything in this thread omega you are just flat out wrong and are trying to argue with canon.

and if something is canon even if everyone here at KMC disagrees with it doesn't matter because it's still canon.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Wow, those are some longting posts. I'll get to most of them later, but because he was so incredibly rude, I think I'll get to Daft Hord's now.

Rude? Whenever in my post above did I insult you or call you a name? I was trying to have formal discussion but you obviously would rather insult me.

An order that we know absolutely nothing about. For all we know they could have been around before since the Great Hyperspace war meaning they would be around longer than Nadd, and even before Exar Kunwhich was 40 years earlier than Revan's sith. They could have even predated the sith empire of Ragnos.

That is true that was Revan's original goal before he started. But he adopted all the sith philosophies and became a sith lord and reopened the korriban academy and was because of the surviving sith of his empire would eventually lead to the sith that would eventually be lead by Ruin. Both groups are sith, Revan,Malak,Nihilus,Sion, Traya are all sith they have been regarded as sith throughout time. And for all we know the "true sith" Could be member of the sith species not apart of the cult or sith empire of marka ragnos. Since after Adas defeated the Rakatan since they did posses the technology to relocate themselves. We don't know.

Um i have read but I have also read Path of Destruction (which we know came out more recently) and I know you read it too. In which Revan's holocron also talks about the rule of two. Revan's holocron clearly said:This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.

Then a little bit latter on it says
Bane was sitting cross-legged on the stone floor of the central chamber on the Rakatan Temple's uppermost floor. He was meditating on Revan's words as he had often done between the Holocron's lessons. Now that the artifact was gone, it was even more important to contemplate what he had learned about the nature of the dark side . . . and the path it would lead him down.
During this point the narrator states this( i apologize for it being a little long)

This was the inescapable paradox of the Sith.Kaan had tried to solve the problem by making everyone equal in the Brotherhood. But his solution was flawed. It showed no understanding of the real problem. No understanding of the true nature of the dark side. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If all are equal, then none is strong. Yet whoever rose from the swollen and bloated ranks of the Sith to claim the mantle of Dark Lord would never be able to hold it. In time the apprentices will unite their strength and overthrow the Master. It is inevitable. Together the weak would overwhelm the strong in a gross perversion of the natural order.But there was another solution. A way to break the endless cycle dragging the Sith down. Bane understood that now. At first he had thought the answer might be to replace the order of the Sith with a single, all-powerful Dark Lord. No other Masters. No apprentices. Just one vessel to contain all the knowledge and power of the dark side. But he had quickly dismissed the idea.Eventually even a Dark Lord would wither and die; all the knowledge of the Sith would be lost. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. One alone would never work. But if the Sith numbered exactly two. Minions and servants could be drawn in to the service of the dark side by the temptation of power. They could be given small tastes of what it offered, as an owner might share morsels from the table with his faithful curs. In the end, however, there could be only one true Sith Master. And to serve this Master, there could be only one true apprentice.Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody the power, the other to crave it. The Rule of Two .This was the knowledge that would lead the dark side into a new age. A revelation that would bring an end to the infighting that had defined the order for a thousand generations. The Sith would be reborn, the new ways

So Revan can received just as much credit as Nadd for the rule of two if not more (depends of the next bane book)

And your opinion is not canon no matter what you argue says. Kaan is a sith a bad one at that yet still a sith. Whether you recognize him as one or not And the same goes for anyother sith lord you have mentioned as not being one since they are recognized as being sith in every source book or any star wars material period.

Violent2Dope

I think Nihilus' Force Breaking technique actually did cause destruction on Kataar other than people dying.

Gideon

Bullshit, Nebaris. You've got no right to complain; you're as rude as anyone on these forums.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And the terms like vastly destructable and virtually unstoppable can also apply to Nihilus' Super Force Feeding technique because when it is unleashed, nothing can stop it and it will kill any thing touched by the Force that gets trapped in it and will also destroy man-made structures in the process. Unstoppable? Sorry but have you heard of the fallanasi technique? Do you know the nature of nihilus attack?
Do you know how it works? He breaks the bond between life and the force causing them to die, then he feeds on the death he just caused, same for the exile except for the fact she can't break anybodys bond.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Don't try to confuse the very nature of these two powers. But since Nihilus' attack destroyed everything on Katarr, it means that it can easily decimate man-made structures as well.
What the fu*k are you talking about? DO YOU UNDERSTAND the nature of his attack? He merely breaks the bonds between his victims and the force which is what kills them, his power DOES NOT manifest itself as anything.

Wow so just because a butcher knife can kill a human, it means it can kill a whale. Nice logic legend.

Prove that his bond breaker, the one which is considered his most dangerous technique, can destroy a fleet of warships, oh right if he could do that, then WHY did he need to bring a fleet of warships to telos to defend his starship from being attacked by the republic fleet?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

In terms of destroying materials, it would be more deadly. Lets see... you use the bond breaking ability on someone, he dies but his body remains there, use a force storm, the vicitms body dissintigrates and all that remains is dust, oh wait seeing its so destructive it turns to nothing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is why I said before that Palpatine' Force Storm might be more dangerous. Still Nihilus' Super Force Feeding technique rivals it in terms of causing death and destruction on planets. Might be more dangerous? Oh no it is more dangerous seeing that his storm can cause even greater destruction on a planets surface as we saw what he did to the imperial sector on coruscant,

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now do you even understand the meaning of word "rival" or do you not? It simply means "being close" or "being a competitor."
. Does not change the fact palpatines force storm > a technique which breaks the bond between life and the force
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You talking about a fleet? Again a planet's mass is far more stronger than any man made structure. Prove he actually destroyed the planet, if your referring to katarr, he merely attacked that one city, did he destroy the mountains? No he didn't. Did he destroy the landscape? No, was the planet densely populated? No

Yet we see palpatines force storm tearing a hole in space, destroy space and time as well as ravaging a planets surface and destroying everything it touches including 6km tall buildings(TPM visual guide), the landscape itself and everything in its path.

Sorry legend, its a fact, force storm > nihilus technique.

Again his technique left something on the planet, the landscape, it was only the rubble of damaged buildings piling ontop one another, the mountains were still there, visas also stated the planet was unharmed and that it was only the living things that got severely devestated

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

A possibility that I have not denied.

I must tell you! Manslayer! You are a master of making fuss over arguments that don't warrant it. Don't do this in future. Facts > your opinion

S_W_LeGenD

GahLakTus!

I am not going to waste my time arguing with you on a point that you are trying to prolong for no valid reason.

I never said that Nihilus' Super Force Severing attack > Palpatine' Force Storm. If you think that I have said this than apparently it is clear that you are not concentrating properly or you have reading issues.

I have got much more important things to do instead.

GahLakTus

Oh ok, i thought you were saying his ability > palpatines, sorry

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Rude? Whenever in my post above did I insult you or call you a name? I was trying to have formal discussion but you obviously would rather insult me.

In my head I know what I'm talking about, but not in the head of others? I consider that highly offensive, you rude, rude person. Apolagize, and do it properly.

We know that they were Ancient Sith, a species that practised the darkside, and the species that laid out the entire Sith Culture.

You clearly don't quite get the whole reason behind Revan's fall to the darkside. He did it to build an Empire strong enough to challenge the True Sith. He planned on using the darkside and Sith Magic against them. Everything he did was purely for the purpose of eradicating the true threat.

Now, we know that eventually he fell so far that that no longer became his goal (as indicated by how he leaves behind his holocron) and he truly was immersed in the Sith ways, but the fact that goals which were detrimental to the True Sith Empire were what began the order, it simply can't be considered a truly legitimate Sith Order.

And again, nothing indicates that Revan truly learnt from the Ancient Sith , or was deemed worthy by them, so there's simply no reason to consider he and his Order true Sith.

Where are you getting this from? Darth Ruin simply left the Jedi Order and reformed the Sith Empire by gathering the Sith Cults that had been scattered after the Great Sith War (Exar Kun's Sith War).

Even still, so a pretender gathers sects of the empire of a pretender? How exactly does this make him a legitimate Sith Lord, or the Order before him?

1. KotOR is actually a pretty isolated piece of work as far as the EU is concerned. A few mentions here and there, and that's it.

2. They are referred as such because that is what they proclaimed themselves as being. Doesn't make their self proclamation legitimate, however.

For all we know? We do know that, Traya makes it pretty clear that they are members of the actual Sith Race, and the fact that they were actual Ancient Sith doesn't detract from my point. The Ancient Sith were practitioners of the darkside, that began the Sith Ways. The Sith originated with them.

I wasn't arguing who receives more credit for it, I was simply explaining why I consider Bane a true Sith Lord, and not Revan or his Empire.

Canon doesn't indicate whether Kaan and his Brotherhood of Darkness were true Sith or not, meaning we simply don't know, and can't label him as such. I'm not saying my opinion is definite or anything, just explaining why I think that way.

Yes, and they are recognised that way because that's how they chose to label themselves. Doesn't make them truly legitimate.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
After 10+ bans and countless wtfpwns, you still have the temerity to waste everybody's time and embarass yourself doing it. Since your argument has yet again been pwned and you are in a need of a reality check, I'll chime in.

I didn't know you were an authority on "speed", or the author of KOTOR, or even ANYBODY credible to interpret the fight as "Sion won with speed alone", and "Sion is one fast mofo". Since there's no real evidence of this, you're an idiot.

No real evidence? Traya is clearly extremely adept with the force given her displays of it (predicting numerous events with extreme precision and detail, one in particular which would take place thousands of years into the future); the resurrection of Hanharr, killing three Jedi Masters effortlessly in quick succession, and cloaking her entire presence from Jedi Masters while being right next to them), and amping up one's speed and reactions are both applications of the force, meaning she's adept with them. Not to mentioned her unrivalled precognition, yet none of that (speed, reactions, precognition) was able to prevent Sion from one hit owning her with his lightsaber.

The sheer speed to overpower one with speed, reaction times and precognition of the likes of Traya is only ever replicated by Luke Skywalker. If such speed wasn't anything special, we would see such displays replicated more than just once.

Right.

Canon is essentially the storyline. I wasn't claiming that the cut scene would be part of the storyline, meaning I wasn't arguing with canon. I doubt you even know what canon is.

However, given that the scene was only not included because of time restraints, we can deduce that the powers displayed by Nihilus, and the resistance displayed by Sion, both fully fit in accordance with the Game producer's vision.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Pwned61
Nihilus is the most destructive force power? Are you forgetting Sidious' storms? Nihilus' technique kills individuals (if that's even the tech he used), but it does not have the pure destructive power of Sidious' storms.

You're ignoring scale, like most, as well as the fact that Sidious' technique can't be focused in a one-on-one scenario, and the very nature of it means that no ability is required to pull it off (essentially meaning that it doesn't speak for his overall ability).

The scene itself, no. But what we see of their powers would fit with what the Game Developer's intended them to be like.

Isolate all of his other lightning displays, why don't you?

Now look to the movies, when Dooku attempts to overpower Yoda with Lightning, Yoda absorbs it with ease. Yet when Sidious does, Yoda struggles to contain it. But surely, given the similar scale of both attacks, the force energies expanded would have been the same, by your logic. Clearly, you haven't quite grasped the whole concept of concentrated energies, and how scale isn't all.

By your logic, to overpower a non force sensitive, and to overpower Yoda, through pure TK, wouldn't require any variance in force energies expanded simply because of the scale being constant in both cases.

Or to move an object a given distance, and to do the same at twice the speed, would require no different release of force energies.

I didn't say force potential, I said force ability. As for whether or not she would have refined the technique, padawans are taught to amp up their physical attributes with the force. Traya, being an experience Jedi Master, would have definitely refined such a simply technique. As for pre-cog, the same applies, as well as the fact that she actually displays the technique with a potency like no other (at the end of KotOR2).

She's a phenomenally powerful force user. Force speed is a very simply technique that padawans learn. Ergo, she would know how to do it, and would excel at it.

Like I'm somehow supposed to know what's not shown in canon... Silly question. However, when the Masters bring it up, they do it with emphasis on her power, meaning the augmentation was obviously to quite a high degree.

Most powerful Sith lord in history? Stop bringing up this bullshit, he quite clearly wasn't (that's right, ambiguous text doesn't change that), given he's displayed clear limits to his power, which other Sith have displayed power in excess of.

Also, try not to lose sight of the bigger picture here. You were claiming that Sion getting beat down by Exile repeatedly somehow means the same would happen with Sidious, meaning it's your burden of proof to prove that Sidious is greater than the Exile, not mine to prove otherwise.

I already did, if you could actually read, you would know this. Fighting through an entire Sith Academy filled with Dark Jedi, Droids, Turret Guns, Darth fricking Sion, a then going on to defeat Traya makes it quite clear that she was exceptionally powerful.

Loving the quote and page number. Oh wait!

She's barely mentioned in other material, and at best, she's only ever referred to as the Jedi Exile, which doesn't qualify as a Jedi, in the same way that "Fallen Jedi" or "Dark Jedi" don't. Fact is, there was no Jedi Order at the time for which to be a Jedi of, and when there had been, she had been exiled and essentially was no longer truly a Jedi. Fact of the matter is, The Exile ain't no Jedi.

Clearly you need a statement expressing such a thing and can't quite think logically for yourself. Now don't be dense Pwned, if one doesn't need to protect oneself, and is in a fight in which he is going full out, the focus would quite clearly be on the offense, rather than defence. There would be no need, essentially making defending himself mostly pointless. Only a 5 year old wouldn't quite understand that. Are you a 5 year old, Pwned?

Apparently logical deduction is beyond you.

Please tell me Pwned, why exactly would the Exile continue to simply just stab him (if indeed that is what she originally did to strike him down) if it was quite clearly ineffective against him? Don't you think, as an accomplished warrior, she would step it up, and maybe go for decapitation, or the removal of his limb? Only an idiot would continue to attack him in such a way that was quite clearly ineffective. Occam's Razor would indicate that any form of lightsaber damage, was quite simply ineffective against his resistance to damage.

No they don't, ambiguous text proves nothing.

Wow, you're still not getting this. Technique, strength and other such factors only factor in when blades clash, and combinations are utilised. Sion sliced her hand off in one move. He essentially was able to strike his blade through a position before Traya could react to it. What factor, other than speed, would be utilised there? On Traya's part, the only means with which to prevent such a thing would be her reactions and her speed. Simply being able to react to an attack and blocking it has no relation to pure technique.

Sion appears in a few cutscenes within one video game...

It's not like there's much exposure on him that would highlight his speed on the constant.

Please, don't be ridiculous, the feat quite clearly speaks heavily for his speed. Another feat to support that is not necessary, and you asking for one simply highlights your lack to argue against the one mentioned.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
In my head I know what I'm talking about, but not in the head of others? I consider that highly offensive, you rude, rude person. Apolagize, and do it properly.

Whatever you say Nebaris.

Then a little latter down you say this:

If they are members of the sith race and Traya says the predate the sith empire. It seems they left after Adas died meaning they predated the exile of the dark jedi who would land on Korriban. And the point then would be they are not practitioners of the darkside the darkside they way the sith would be after the dark jedi arrived. That is a key point. There is simply not enough info about them to make an accurate judgment. So if there is ever more info then an arguement can truly be made but you are going by Traya's comments which is all there is about them.

I do know why he fell and you mentioned it here and how he did fall so far. The thing is they left behind things other sith that would later use. The name darth while not necessarily created by them yet they certainly revived it and the revived korriban academy. And again the whole point of this is you claiming they are pretenders due to Revan creating them to fight the true sith.

But that is your opinion and it is like Bane saying that Kaan is not a true sith but Revan was. The facts are that they are sith and its canon and if they had the same opinon as you on Revan they can announce that Revan is not really a sith but a pretender like you say.

And if these true sith did exist then what happened to them? Since there is no mention of them later on after the kotor period it seems to me that they would have been defeated since they were very close to invading the republic and then all of sudden no mention of them. So if they were defeated and that is why the never came then what sith would be considered real and not prenteders? Granted this a theory since koto 3 has not be made or released it is not exaclty definitve but holds water that they would have been defeated and with their defeat then there is no sith left until Bane well at least in yoir opinion since you seem to not recognize Revan or Kaan to be pretenders.

Right so Revan just ignored all of the sith knowledge and power he gain from Malachor and later on when he went to Korriban. He learned from the ancient sith without actually having one of them teach him. And then you say your opinion that they were not true which goes against canon.

Prove to me that they were remnants of kun's sith. It much more likely the sith that Ruin would join/unite were remnants of Revan's sith who survived the JCW and the sith civil wars to follow. In fact I believe it was mentioned in the NEC that there was a surviving sith from what I have just mentioned above.

I assume you are talking about Kaan and what does? canon does like it or not. Like Bane's opinion on them both of yours is not canon. So the fact remain\s that Revan's lineage of sith would become the sith that Ruin would come to unite.

Yet it if they did(out of universe) dconsider Revan a pretender they have the power to say he is really just a dark jedi and a pretender sith but they don't. No the reason is that they jedi accepted and them to be and the sith later on like Bane say refer to them as such.

Fair enough. It sounded like you were giving all the credit to Nadd. But your second statement is the same as Bane considering Revan to be a true sith lord yet Kaan not.

I understand where your coming from but canon stills labels them as sith meaning they are true sith in terms of being part of the sith lineage as for Revan and Nihilus etc. this got really off topic the point is that that you claiming that Nihilus is not a true sith meaning that he would be included in the sith so the quotes that back Sidious as the most powerful sith ever is false and he does pertain to it. You really could a be a great debater here if you would not argue against canon which is what you are doing here by trying to find a loophole to exclude sion and nihilus from being real sith. The bottom line is the true sith have not enough info about them for your claims to hold water here. You can provide all the in universe "evidence" to support your theory and views but when they go against canon is where you lose everytime.

Darth Sexy

Noobaris, you're boring everyone. Stop talking and turn off your computer.

Gideon

Originally posted by Gideon
My apologies, Nebaris, but "those statements" do -- in fact -- exist; three separate ones from three separate sources off the top of my head, with my copy of the RotS novelization notwithstanding.

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76. Emphasis mine.

"...Yoda could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page ??? (I don't own the book). Emphasis mine.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72. Emphasis mine.

And before you go off reciting how the adjective is referring to Darth Sidious's political achievements -- the statement is made in the very beginning of the Attack of the Clones section. All he has done, at this point, has gotten himself elected Chancellor -- with relatively limited powers -- as this is before the manipulation of the Separatist crisis granted him unprecedented political latitude. Likewise, the Jedi Order is still functioning, as is the Republic, and the Empire is nonexistent. It is an obvious reference to power.

Likewise, here is a bit from Publius:

Addendums: The situation regarding the burial of the Lusankya were proven to be a direct result from "the Emperor's mind-fogging powers" (the Essential Guide to Characters, Ysanne Isard). Likewise, the Essential Chronology states that when the Star Destroyer tore itself from the planet, it killed "millions instantly" -- so Palpatine warped the minds of millions.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

You're ignoring scale, like most, as well as the fact that Sidious' technique can't be focused in a one-on-one scenario, and the very nature of it means that no ability is required to pull it off (essentially meaning that it doesn't speak for his overall ability).

It can n00baris, according to the audio book and DESB, palpatine was going to unleash it on luke before he got cut off the force, how i forget he reconnects himself after seeing his immese strength in the force
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

No real evidence? Traya is clearly extremely adept with the force given her displays of it (predicting numerous events with extreme precision and detail, one in particular which would take place thousands of years into the future); the resurrection of Hanharr, killing three Jedi Masters effortlessly in quick succession, and cloaking her entire presence from Jedi Masters while being right next to them), and amping up one's speed and reactions are both applications of the force, meaning she's adept with them. Not to mentioned her unrivalled precognition, yet none of that (speed, reactions, precognition) was able to prevent Sion from one hit owning her with his lightsaber.

According to kotor 2, Strong walls of emotion can render ones precognitive abilities useless, even if it was a powerful jedi.

Prove that kreia ressurected hanharr seeing that he questioned her "why didn't you let me die". Had he really die and brought back to life, he would have said "Why didn't you leave me dead"
Right i also forgot that she killed 3 inferior average jedi masters whom have not shown anything spetacular.

If sion is more powerful than kreia, why did he bow to her towards the end to the game, for the sith the more powerful will never bow to somebody inferior. Your an idiot nebaris an idiot who has demonstrated "infinite stupidity"

Right
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Now thanks to gideon for these

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
When Kreia had her hand cut off, she wasn't even a remotely powerful Force user, cause, you know, Nihilus cut her off.

Firstly, we don't even know that Nihilus had cut her off for certain.

Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that such would have any sort of longterm effect.

Thirdly, the incident took place ages before, and Kreia could use the force just fine at the beginning of KotOR 2. She could use force sight, could speak to the Exile telepathically, could predict things with the force, could hide her presence with the force, and put herself into a force trance. I highly doubt she would have even gone up against Sion in the first place if she wasn't at her best.

Either way, it's your job to prove that her force ability would be in any way not quite at best at the beginning of KotOR 2 for your point to stand.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Firstly, we don't even know that Nihilus had cut her off for certain.

Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that such would have any sort of longterm effect.

Thirdly, the incident took place ages before, and Kreia could use the force just fine at the beginning of KotOR 2. She could use force sight, could speak to the Exile telepathically, could predict things with the force, could hide her presence with the force, and put herself into a force trance.

Im actually think I might agree with you here that she was not cut off(or at least for long time) otherwise she could not telepathically and remember she did make her lightsaber move after she hit the wall a little then she stopped yet could do all the things you mentioned but could it be because of the bond with the exile that allowed her to use the force again? That's the only explanation I can think of Nihilus cut her off then maybe the exile could have reconnect her with the bond.(im no expert on the exile or traya or force bonds for that matter) It is so dam inconsistent really. Fill me in here people.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Gideon
My apologies, Nebaris,

Look, Gideon, I can see that you're clearly much more intelligent than most here, and you haven't decided to get aggressive or anything, so I'll remain civil. But, honestly, I'm not Nebaris, there's not really much more I can say. If you could, post this guy's profile, so I'll be better able to point out the differences that will clearly be there. Also, out of curiosity, did Nebaris happen to go by the alias of David Storm? Some fool in the comic book versus forum accused me of being a sock of that person, so just curious.

What does the RotS novelisation have to do with anything?

1. This was actually quite clearly from Vader's PoV.

Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.
The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.
As would Vader be, someday.
But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always.

As you can see, the text that appears both directly before and after the paragraph you posted explores Vader's thoughts, meaning that the paragraph most likely represents what Vader was thinking at the time.

Either way, prove that it was fully the Omniscient Narrator's thoughts and feelings, or drop the point. If you reall choose to go that route, you'd also have to argue that Vader eventially surpassed Sidious, given it's stated that he would have, directly afterwards.

2. Powerful is a very ambiguous word. Just look at the context that surrounds the paragraph you posted.

The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force.

This is essentially saying that Palpatine fully worked in accordance with the darkside, and was the perfect tool to do its bidding. Speaking for his dedication to the darkside and the Sith Ways. Dedication, which when directed with patience at the Jedi and Republic, enabled him to be the most politically and military powerful Sith there had ever been.

Now, prove that power in this sense referred to personal power, or drop the point.

Well, this point I find troubling to deal with. Whilst I know that the New Essential Chronology is technically a fallible in-universe guide, I also know at the same time that it's only made to appear as such, so that the reader feels more in touch with the SWU, and it's really as infallible as an out-of-universe guide. But, at the end of the day, the statement makes no sense whatsoever, given it refers to RotS Sidious (who, along with his rivals, has displayed limits that other Sith have been able to overcome), so I'm gonna choose to treat it as what it technically is: an opinion from someone inside the SWU. And such an opinion will always be infallible.

Firstly, greatness is almost always measured through accomplishments. Prove, undeniably, that it's power in this case.

Secondly, you may say that it's in reference to Sidious at the beginning of AotC, but it doesn't change the fact that it's being explored from a time later on. The description could refer to a Sidious at a much later time, yet simply speaking of that person, in respect to the past.

Likewise, here is a bit from Publius: I'll get to that in a bit

Not sure I quite follow. How would the fact that the Star Destroyer killed millions instantly mean that Palpatine warped the minds of millions? From what I've read, Palpatine simply warped the minds of the engineers who oversaw the burial of the Star Destroyer.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Im actually think I might agree with you here that she was not cut off(or at least for long time) otherwise she could not telepathically and remember she did make her lightsaber move after she hit the wall a little then she stopped yet could do all the things you mentioned but could it be because of the bond with the exile that allowed her to use the force again? That's the only explanation I can think of Nihilus cut her off then maybe the exile could have reconnect her with the bond.(im no expert on the exile or traya or force bonds for that matter) It is so dam inconsistent really. Fill me in here people.

It's possible, but we really won't know either way unless it's later explored.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Not sure I quite follow. How would the fact that the Star Destroyer killed millions instantly mean that Palpatine warped the minds of millions? From what I've read, Palpatine simply warped the minds of the engineers who oversaw the burial of the Star Destroyer.

I will let Gideon address the rest since he posted it and knows more on Sidious and those quotes than me but here he is saying that Palpatine had to wipe the minds of the citizens or surely they would notice something about 19 kilometers being buried beneath the surface and the noise something I like that would make not to mention the massive shadows that would appear. And by wiping away the minds then they would not know it was there certainly people would talk about if they remembered it and woud you want your home above a super star destroyer that would destroy your house and kill you if you were present when launched to be below your feet.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Whatever you say Nebaris.

Then a little latter down you say this:

If they are members of the sith race and Traya says the predate the sith empire. It seems they left after Adas died meaning they predated the exile of the dark jedi who would land on Korriban. And the point then would be they are not practitioners of the darkside the darkside they way the sith would be after the dark jedi arrived. That is a key point. There is simply not enough info about them to make an accurate judgment. So if there is ever more info then an arguement can truly be made but you are going by Traya's comments which is all there is about them.

I do know why he fell and you mentioned it here and how he did fall so far. The thing is they left behind things other sith that would later use. The name darth while not necessarily created by them yet they certainly revived it and the revived korriban academy. And again the whole point of this is you claiming they are pretenders due to Revan creating them to fight the true sith.

But that is your opinion and it is like Bane saying that Kaan is not a true sith but Revan was. The facts are that they are sith and its canon and if they had the same opinon as you on Revan they can announce that Revan is not really a sith but a pretender like you say.

And if these true sith did exist then what happened to them? Since there is no mention of them later on after the kotor period it seems to me that they would have been defeated since they were very close to invading the republic and then all of sudden no mention of them. So if they were defeated and that is why the never came then what sith would be considered real and not prenteders? Granted this a theory since koto 3 has not be made or released it is not exaclty definitve but holds water that they would have been defeated and with their defeat then there is no sith left until Bane well at least in yoir opinion since you seem to not recognize Revan or Kaan to be pretenders.

Right so Revan just ignored all of the sith knowledge and power he gain from Malachor and later on when he went to Korriban. He learned from the ancient sith without actually having one of them teach him. And then you say your opinion that they were not true which goes against canon.

Prove to me that they were remnants of kun's sith. It much more likely the sith that Ruin would join/unite were remnants of Revan's sith who survived the JCW and the sith civil wars to follow. In fact I believe it was mentioned in the NEC that there was a surviving sith from what I have just mentioned above.

I assume you are talking about Kaan and what does? canon does like it or not. Like Bane's opinion on them both of yours is not canon. So the fact remain\s that Revan's lineage of sith would become the sith that Ruin would come to unite.

Yet it if they did(out of universe) dconsider Revan a pretender they have the power to say he is really just a dark jedi and a pretender sith but they don't. No the reason is that they jedi accepted and them to be and the sith later on like Bane say refer to them as such.

Fair enough. It sounded like you were giving all the credit to Nadd. But your second statement is the same as Bane considering Revan to be a true sith lord yet Kaan not.

I understand where your coming from but canon stills labels them as sith meaning they are true sith in terms of being part of the sith lineage as for Revan and Nihilus etc. this got really off topic the point is that that you claiming that Nihilus is not a true sith meaning that he would be included in the sith so the quotes that back Sidious as the most powerful sith ever is false and he does pertain to it. You really could a be a great debater here if you would not argue against canon which is what you are doing here by trying to find a loophole to exclude sion and nihilus from being real sith. The bottom line is the true sith have not enough info about them for your claims to hold water here. You can provide all the in universe "evidence" to support your theory and views but when they go against canon is where you lose everytime.

Traya makes it explicitly clear that these Sith were a real threat, which they wouldn't be if not for practising Sith Magic. Now you may label Traya fallible, but it's quite clearly the Game Developer's means for which to set up the drama behind Revan's fall and what he was hoping to achieve. Meaning, these Ancient Sith would be the very same that essentially created the entire culture. Now, Revan may have eventually truly fallen and become fully immersed in the Sith Ways, but the fact that his Empire was built to combat these Sith, in my mind, detracts from its possible legitimacy.

And of course, like I've said, there's no proof that Revan learnt directly from any Ancient Sith or legitimate Sith that followed, and especially is there no proof that they deemed him worthy.

"Further supporting this, from the NEC: Revan and Malak took up Sith holdings left dormant after the First Sith War, establishing a link between their ideology and that of Exar Kun, despite their lack of a connection to the Sith Species itself."

Really, nothing indicates that Revan and his Order were definitely legitimate Sith. being referred to as such is simply because that was what they were considered at the time, and how they proclaimed themselves. Not that this matters really; as shown, Gideon's quotes aren't conclusive, and neither is any other from what I've seen of SW literature.

BTW, for the record, Darth Ruin was stated to have gathered scattered cults from Kun's Empire in Evil Never Dies. Not Revan's Empire.

Also, sorry about the hostility earlier, my bad on that bigtime.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I will let Gideon address the rest since he posted it and knows more on Sidious and those quotes than me but here he is saying that Palpatine had to wipe the minds of the citizens or surely they would notice something about 19 kilometers being buried beneath the surface and the noise something I like that would make not to mention the massive shadows that would appear. And by wiping away the minds then they would not know it was there certainly people would talk about if they remembered it and woud you want your home above a super star destroyer that would destroy your house and kill you if you were present when launched to be below your feet.

Well, there's no indication as to whether any citizens would have witnessed the burial. It's only ever stated that he wiped the minds of the engineers that buried it, and for all we know, that could have been in an isolated area with no witnesses. Or, he could have simply had any witnesses killer or imprisoned. I honestly don't think he did anything more than what's actually stated.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Well, there's no indication as to whether any citizens would have witnessed the burial. It's only ever stated that he wiped the minds of the engineers that buried it, and for all we know, that could have been in an isolated area with no witnesses. Or, he could have simply had any witnesses killer or imprisoned. I honestly don't think he did anything more than what's actually stated.

You do know that there would millions upon million of witnesses to see the ship coming descending that be a a significant amount of the population to be killed to be noticed by the citizens who didn't actually witness. To hide a ship 19 kilometers or 11 miles long without the use of the force would be impossible since there is always traffic in the skies of coruscant. A ship leaving the planet could have seen it descend and Sidious could not to a thing to stop the people of the ship from telling their story since they would have left the planet and I would bet there would be many ships doing that. And it is possible that the republic could have found out about it that way. Not to mention the republic probably had spies on coruscant that could have seen it. And then what about the people in the imperial military? Certainly not all of them were qualified to know something this important. Sidious would also have to worry about treacherous naval officers ( or common thieves for that matter) from trying to steal or sabotage the ship if they had enough support. It is much more likely that the he erased the citizens minds.

Ultra Omega

2 words: Cloaking Device. The ship could have landed into Coruscant whilst cloaked, taken to an isolated area (we know it was buried in one of the Mountain sectors of Coruscant), and only the engineers and crew of the ship would have been in the know (the crew of which he could have simply ordered the death of). The giant shadow and noise wouldn't in any way matter if it were buried in an isolated area. Nothing indicates that the Emperor would have had to mind wipe anyone other than the engineers. As for your claim that Coruscant is constantly filled with air traffic, could I have some proof? Same with your claim that there would be millions of witnesses.

As for the millions that were killed, that happened much later, during a completely unrelated incident, when Yvanne Isard fled from Coruscant to Thyferra in the Lusyanka. That had nothing to do with when the Lusyanka was buried.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
2 words: Cloaking Device. The ship could have landed into Coruscant whilst cloaked, taken to an isolated area (we know it was buried in one of the Mountain sectors of Coruscant), and only the engineers and crew of the ship would have been in the know (the crew of which he could have simply ordered the death of). The giant shadow and noise wouldn't in any way matter if it were buried in an isolated area. Nothing indicates that the Emperor would have had to mind wipe anyone other than the engineers. As for your claim that Coruscant is constantly filled with air traffic, could I have some proof? Same with your claim that there would be millions of witnesses.

As for the millions that were killed, that happened much later, during a completely unrelated incident, when Yvanne Isard fled from Coruscant to Thyferra in the Lusyanka. That had nothing to do with when the Lusyanka was buried.

Proof that there was a cloaking device? I don't think there was ever any mention of one. Maybe not traffic directly over the 2 mountain peaks but being as how the whole planet is a city it would be surrounded by skyscrapers. Again the sher size (19 km or 11 miles) I don't recall the mountains being listed as being taller than that. And the proof about the traffic is in the movies of the constant multiple levels of traffic leaving and arriving. Even at night the planet has lots of traffic judging from the chase scene in episode 2. It reminds me of New York city even at night there are still plenty of cars on the road and corscant is just a big city with a population over a trillion and combine that with a size of super star destroyer descending it is very likely that the ship would have been scene. That would be like a ufo landing on the outskirts of NYC in more of the residential areas lots of people would see and hear it. There is no way a ship that size could be silent went descending.Then peole could record it like we record ufos and show them to the world via tv and internet. I would have to see definitive proof of cloaking device was put on the ship. And then what about the possibly of a nearby republic spy seeing? That is certainly interesting news to report,we know Sidious is a very very smart man, he would have to have known the possibility of republic spies seeing it. A super star destroyer is very valuable I wold not want my enemies to know I buried one and risk a sabotage operation. Seeing as how there is no proof a cloaking device being put on the ship it would label that out as possibility cause it would have been simple enough to say that it had a cloaking device and yet it didn't and the ship could be scene from miles and miles away from the city skyscrapers and ships. It is next to impossible for it not to have been seen by someone who shouldn't have.

Edit: I will try to get a response to your other post up tommorrow.

Gideon

Thanks for the assistance, Darth Horde.

Ultra Omega

You spelt his name wrong. stick out tongue

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Proof that there was a cloaking device? I don't think there was ever any mention of one. Maybe not traffic directly over the 2 mountain peaks but being as how the whole planet is a city it would be surrounded by skyscrapers. Again the sher size (19 km or 11 miles) I don't recall the mountains being listed as being taller than that. And the proof about the traffic is in the movies of the constant multiple levels of traffic leaving and arriving. Even at night the planet has lots of traffic judging from the chase scene in episode 2. It reminds me of New York city even at night there are still plenty of cars on the road and corscant is just a big city with a population over a trillion and combine that with a size of super star destroyer descending it is very likely that the ship would have been scene. That would be like a ufo landing on the outskirts of NYC in more of the residential areas lots of people would see and hear it. There is no way a ship that size could be silent went descending.Then peole could record it like we record ufos and show them to the world via tv and internet. I would have to see definitive proof of cloaking device was put on the ship. And then what about the possibly of a nearby republic spy seeing? That is certainly interesting news to report,we know Sidious is a very very smart man, he would have to have known the possibility of republic spies seeing it. A super star destroyer is very valuable I wold not want my enemies to know I buried one and risk a sabotage operation. Seeing as how there is no proof a cloaking device being put on the ship it would label that out as possibility cause it would have been simple enough to say that it had a cloaking device and yet it didn't and the ship could be scene from miles and miles away from the city skyscrapers and ships. It is next to impossible for it not to have been seen by someone who shouldn't have.

Edit: I will try to get a response to your other post up tommorrow.

Dude... the burden of proof is not on me. I'm simply pointing out holes in the "Sidious mindwiped millions" theory that people have going on here. The fact is, cloaking devices are not exactly that rare when it comes to ships in the SWU, and the Lusyanka could have easily been cloaked.

As for the air traffic, while there may be a lot in the city areas of Coruscant, there really wouldn't be any in an isolated mountain region. Also, we don't know how large this region was, and how isolated it may have been, meaning that the sound may not even register to the city region. Fact is, nothing indicates that the Lusyanka couldn't have landed in a distant and isolated Mountain area where any kind of noise or shadow wouldn't have been recognised by any of Coruscant's inhabitants. Nothing indicates that the Lusyanka couldn't have been cloaked, preventing anyone from seeing it as it descended into the Planet's atmosphere. Nothing indicates that Palpatine had to do anything more than what is stated: mindwiping the engineers that buried the ship. I appreciate the thought into the theory, I really do, but that's all it is: a theory.

Nothing in canon indicates that Sidious would have had to mindwipe millions...

Gideon

All right, Nebaris.

I'll be back a little later tonight with my final response to this subject. I'm tired of arguing the issue regarding Palpatine's superiority over other Sith Lords; I've been spearheading it for two years, and it's been taxing, having to force it down the throats of others and forcing them to swallow. Every single person who has contended the issue has conceded the point and -- if they don't -- knows well enough not to argue it in the face of superior soures and a better constructed argument.

In conclusion, I'm fastly losing my desire to continue it. Every other person has accepted it, so by the end of the day, I'm content. I'll be back soon.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Gideon
All right, Nebaris.

I'll be back a little later tonight with my final response to this subject. I'm tired of arguing the issue regarding Palpatine's superiority over other Sith Lords; I've been spearheading it for two years, and it's been taxing, having to force it down the throats of others and forcing them to swallow. Every single person who has contended the issue has conceded the point and -- if they don't -- knows well enough not to argue it in the face of superior soures and a better constructed argument.

In conclusion, I'm fastly losing my desire to continue it. Every other person has accepted it, so by the end of the day, I'm content. I'll be back soon.

Dude, you're pissing me off with your constant positive attitude. It's like a cheerleader vomiting sunshine. Everyone on this planet knows Noobaris can't debate, nor has Noobaris even won a debate. Noobaris types because Noobaris likes to see his own text, that is his only purpose. Nobody here takes any of his posts seriously, so stop being so nice.

Gideon

As I stated earlier, this will be my final post on regarding this particular issue and (with any luck) Palpatine's status among the rest of the Sith. You may choose to respond or you may not; it's irrelevant at this point. The fact that I'm responding to this at all is simply an issue of pride. The only thing lacking here is a desire to argue the case after campaigning it for two years straight with an enormous success rate. However, I'd like to first conclude the following:

This will definately be my final post regarding as to whether or not you are Nebaris or not. The fact remains that you and he post similarly. You both seem to generate strong support for Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, and Darth Bane. As we speak, Sith'ari at EoD is campaigning against Nai Fohl in a case for Darth Sion -- using hauntingly familiar terms, phrases, and evidence that you care to use. Even in this thread, you two share eerie habits. Your constant use of the ambiguity card pertaining to quotes that debunk your theories, the same style of posting, and -- often times -- identical responses (verbatim). He's also got a notorious habit for lying about his identity to protect himself from bans. The similarities are far too evident and I consider deception (in this case) to be an act of desperation. If it is you (which I'm sure it is), there's no need in hiding it anymore.

Moving on:

Your attempts to undermine the quotes provided by these canon sources are ridiculous. Aren't you the same person who, just a few posts ago, attempt to justify usage of the non-canon cutscene from KotOR II as indication of Darth Nihilus's powers? Citing that since the scene was only removed due to time restraints, it's still "clearly" in tandem with the writers' intent? If we subscribe to such reasoning, then you have no choice but to accept the grim fact that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith of all -- since these conclusions have manifested themselves in several sources. Sidious is, in fact, the only Sith Lord to have been identified as "the most powerful" by any source. The Dark Side Sourcebook states that " succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" and the Revenge of the Sith novelization (a G-canon source) cites that "seen through the eyes of the Force, Palpatine was an event horizon. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force" -- two others to add to the list of sources proclaiming Sidious's dominance. The fact that George Lucas has stated that balancing the Force requires removing Palpatine out of the equation is also sufficient. The message is irrefutable and incontrovertible: as far as LFL is concerned, he is the strongest Sith ever.

Since I'm going to use your methods on here, there's no need to refute your rebuttal regarding the individual sources since it is clearly the underlying message.

We've used logic to rule out political accomplishments since the statement was made during the beginning of AotC. If you wish to challenge it, then the burden of proof is on you. Prove that it was referring to political achievement.

The burden of proof is on you. Simply stating as much does not make it so. Prove that it is referring in respect to the past.

Prove that she'd excel at it. That would require prodigious Force power to be evenly dispensed. Corran Horn is an immensely powerful Jedi capable of conjuring unparalleled illusions; yet he's absolutely terrible at telekinesis. Power =/= excellence in everything. Foresight =/= excellence in everything. For example, a deer might be able to see the hunter shoot the arrow -- doesn't mean it can dodge it.

No. It never says that. It says that "with the help of the Emperor's mindfogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the Lusankya..." -- it never states that he erased the memories of the engineers. Looking at the sentence makes it clear that his mind fogging powers "assisted" the engineers. Logic concludes that he did so by erasing the minds of the witnesses. A cloaking device is out of the question as Coruscant is entirely populated; people would obviously see the "grave" and ask questions. The notion that Palpatine murdered potential witnesses is out of the question, as then people would really start asking questions. Removing the memories from the witnesses in a heavily populated district is the most efficient and logical explanation.

Essentially, your pro-Sion arguments are fundamentally flawed. The premise you make your outrageous claims on have all been brought into question. You've yet to substantiate his skill. Saying that he was the head of a Sith assassins sect is ambiguous. You can't proclaim him superior or even a rival to Darth Sidious based on that fact, because you're comparing apples with oranges and lacking the methods by which to complete the comparison. Likewise, his speed is also called into question -- whereas Sidious was more than capable of moving "faster than the eye could follow" in the Darth Maul journals. He was also able to overwhelm three of "the finest swordsmen in the Order's history" in ten seconds thanks to his inhuman speed. And he was able to replicate this feat in Dark Empire, whilst generating waves of energy that butchered nearby Imperial personnel according to the audiobook (according to LS). His proficiency at Sith lightning allowed him to murder fifty stormtroopers in a short period of time; reduce three powerful Sith cultists who created "Darth Maul 2.0" (who in turn was able to challenge Darth Vader) to charred bones and ash in one gout of Force lightning -- before Vader could react; and lastly, even as he approached death in the inferior body of his final clone, where each act of the Force would bring him closer to death, he generated the power to easily kill Rayf Ysanna and mortally wound Master Brand. The Telos Holocron reveals that he had the power to "murder opponents from a great distance".

In conclusion, he's the most powerful Sith to have ever existed. He's well in excess of Darth Sion and Darth Traya and there is very little you can or have done to prove otherwise. Perhaps we'll continue this when you bring more to the table.

Gideon

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dude, you're pissing me off with your constant positive attitude. It's like a cheerleader vomiting sunshine. Everyone on this planet knows Noobaris can't debate, nor has Noobaris even won a debate. Noobaris types because Noobaris likes to see his own text, that is his only purpose. Nobody here takes any of his posts seriously, so stop being so nice.

I'm done.

Darth Sexy

1. We know Sidious is #1. Everybody knows this, it's fact/canon/common sense.
2. Of course it's Noobaris. Same exact arguments, same exact stupidity arguing against canon, same exact denial, don't be naive.
3. If you ignore him, then everyone else will ignore him, and then he will be talking to himself, which he is essentially doing anyways.

Lightsnake

Oh, the Lusankya 'could' have easily been cloaked? Prove it.

Because I look at a quote saying quite clearly he used his mindwiping powers to erase the memories of those in the Imperial city. Funny.

Gideon

Lalalalala.

Darth Sexy

You guys take internet stupidity way too seriously.. I mean granted the kid is a first class moron in real life, it shouldn't be a concern of yours or mine. I'm just waiting for the ban.

GahLakTus

So far noobaris is the only person i have seen attempting to refute canon in the same style as he did in his other accounts, IOU,proteus,crado,sith'ari,Mic assassin,the planet, allfg, ultra omega, kasim, thousand

Wow 10 accounts.

Advice nebaris, get a life.. seriously seeing that you never want to leave an internet forum and can't accept the fact your literally unwated anywhere

S_W_LeGenD

@ Ultra Omega

I don't understand that how you continue to argue against canon sources?

There are some valid reasons due to which several sources (as Gideon and few others pointed out to you) state that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Infact! If you take a good notice of what people think about Sidious who travelled with him, you will notice that they all seemed to be very afraid from him. Because they all knew that it would be like committing suicide to even challenge him.

Now if you consider Sion to be great and an exceptional fighter because of the reason that he was the head of a Sith Assassin's sect, than keep in mind that Sidious was the head of an entire Empire (the biggest tyrannical regime) in SW Universe to have ever exist. Now to mantain discipline in such a great Empire, it would not just depend upon loyality factor but also would require great power at personal level on Sidious' part through which he would inspire fear at immense level and that fear will reinforce loyality. And add to this the fact, that Sidious have fought against some of the greatest names in Star Wars history including Luke Skywalker and Yoda and held his own against them.

Against Yoda, Sidious was throwing senate pods at him like as if they were small toys. And in the Dark Empire era, he was displaying powers of such a level that it seemed that he would not need an Empire to do his bidding this time.

His feats and accomplishments are remarkable and like a source pointed out before, he succeeded in those cases where others had failed. One reason is that he had studied Sith history with great interest and learned from the mistakes of Sith Lords of the past. So he was also a "Sith Historian" as well.

The point is that even though he was not at all invincible, he still proved to be more powerful than any Sith Lord in the entire Star Wars Saga that includes famous people such as; Darth Revan, Darth Bane, Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Marka Ragnos and Darth Nihilus (and all of these Sith Lords have managed to accomplish far more than Sion could have imagined). And we will wait and see for the story of Darth Caedus to end before giving a final verdict about him.

And as I have already pointed out before: Darth Sidious will defeat Darth Sion using Dun Moch and his amazing force powers to subdue him and make him realize that he has no chance of defeating him. Darth Sion will eventually give up himself after getting tooled by him repeatedly. It would be a repeat of the scene in which Nihilus tooled Sion with a single attack, and Sion was left with no choice but to leave.

Anyways! It is time for you to change your ways for good.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Gideon
As I stated earlier, this will be my final post on regarding this particular issue and (with any luck) Palpatine's status among the rest of the Sith. You may choose to respond or you may not; it's irrelevant at this point. The fact that I'm responding to this at all is simply an issue of pride. The only thing lacking here is a desire to argue the case after campaigning it for two years straight with an enormous success rate. However, I'd like to first conclude the following:

This will definately be my final post regarding as to whether or not you are Nebaris or not. The fact remains that you and he post similarly. You both seem to generate strong support for Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, and Darth Bane. As we speak, Sith'ari at EoD is campaigning against Nai Fohl in a case for Darth Sion -- using hauntingly familiar terms, phrases, and evidence that you care to use. Even in this thread, you two share eerie habits. Your constant use of the ambiguity card pertaining to quotes that debunk your theories, the same style of posting, and -- often times -- identical responses (verbatim). He's also got a notorious habit for lying about his identity to protect himself from bans. The similarities are far too evident and I consider deception (in this case) to be an act of desperation. If it is you (which I'm sure it is), there's no need in hiding it anymore.

Well, I can only assume that it's a coincidence, or you're not able to analyse people very well. Either way, you said you'd drop it, so it's all gravy baby.

No, what's ridiculous is you trying to pass them off as fact, others blindly accepting them, and committing a burden of proof fallacy after having been asked to prove that the quotes definitely fit your interpretation.

...

You actually are comparing apples and oranges here.

What I was arguing was to do with the canonicity of force powers displayed in a cut scene. You're arguing that your interpretation is conclusive.

...they couldn't't be more different.

What you still don't appear to get is that power isn't unambiguous, greatness is measured in achievements, and a certain number of your quotes are actually not perfectly canon due to who's giving them. You're also greatly misinterpreting some of them.

Which means what exactly? That he was able to hone the darkside into more of a useful tool rather than a devastating weapon? Which Sith wants to truly do that? Taming the darkside essentially lessens its destructive state, which most Sith wouldn't wish to achieve.

For the "Darkness beyond darkness": this means what exactly? That Sidious truly was one evil, dark, and twisted mofo? Yeah, that totally sets him apart from all the other good and caring Sith out there...

For the event horizon and Black Hole nonsense: clearly you can understand the metaphorical nature of this part of the quote, yes? Now, what exactly is the event horizon in respect to the Black Hole? I'll answer for you: it's the point where once passed, nothing can escape . Now let's look at the context. Darkness beyond darkness; indicative of Sidious' sheer evil. Did it not occur to you, that the metaphor represents Sidious' hold on people? That once he has you in his grasp, it's impossible to escape?

Please, ambiguous quotes prove nothing.

Nice misinterpretation. thumb up

GL simply claims that destroying the Sith would balance the force.

Yet apparently you don't quite understand my methods, given you're treating my argument in regards to canonicity in the same light with your's in regard to interpretation.

Now you can claim that such is the underlying message all you want, but until you properly analyse the quotes and fully explain how they fit your interpretation, your claims hold no water.

No. You supplied the quotes to make a point, meaning the burden of proof is entirely on you. You need to accept that greatness is measured in accomplishments when someone is given such a title, and accomplishments =/= power.

As explained, the burden of proof is on you, not me. prove that the statement perfectly fits your interpretation, or drop the point.

No, it really wouldn't, all it would require is some form of correlation. Which, there would be, given that all applications of the force are reliant on one's ability with it, which is transferable through all abilities.

The Horn Family's inability to properly use TK is not the rule, but the exception. It's made pretty clear to be quite the anomaly as far as force powers and force users go, and the fact that you'd solely rely on it underlies your inability to counter the point.

Now, amping up one's speed with the force is taught to padawans, is a simple technique, and not one Jedi has shown to have any trouble with it. GL considers such a thing something that all Jedi can do given that when describing Jedi, his description has them be warrior monks that can block blasterfire (which wouldn't be achieved without force speed) and act as one man armies.

Occam's Razor would absolutely indicate that it's a standard ability, that all force users can use, so if you want to argue that Traya would somehow not be able to use the power properly, the burden of proof is on you.

Foresight isn't all Traya has. She has great offensive capabilities, great ability with cloaking herself, and phenomenal healing abilities. She's displayed as a force titan on many levels.

What is it with you and your false analogies? A deer doesn't draw on an innate ability that would be applicable both with eyesight and reactions + agility. Force users, on the other hand, do draw off of their innate ability for multiple things; all applications of the force in fact.

Don't make silly assumptions. I was referring to a different quote, where it's stated that Sidious removed their memories after they had buried the Star Destroyer.

We know that it was buried in a mountainous region, which would be vastly different to the entirely populated city districts. You don't even know if there would have been any witnesses and all, as for all you know the area could have been entirely isolated.

Ultra Omega

You don't even know if there were witnesses. The fact that it was buried in the Manarai Mountain Sector rather than the heavily populated commercial district would support that. For all we know, the entire Mountains were fully owned by the Empire, and completely isolated from the city.

Again, it's explicitly stated that he mindwiped the engineers that buried the ship... and that's all that's said. Your theory is just that: a theory, and logic isn't with it.

LMAO. Firstly, I never compared his prowess with Sidious'. You simply said that it's not ever indicated that his prowess was any good, and I was simply correcting that silly claim.

But, if I had been, that would not be comparing apples and oranges. Now, if, I say, were to make out that Sion was an extremely skilled plumber, and compared that to Sidious' prowess, well then, that would be the case. Sion was the deadliest Sith Assasin; a group that were Masters of multiple forms of combat. That, plus his obvious lightsaber ability, and he's quite clearly got great battle prowess, which can be compared with Sidious'.

As was TPM Kenobi in TPM...

And Sion's slicing off of Kreia's hand in one move through pure speed alone is easily on par with that.

That's actually bullshit. Yes, he moves faster than the eyes can see, but no, the idea that his speed was able to generate waves of energy that killed nearby Imperial personnel is a lie.

Greatest display of power, yet would be completely ineffective against Sion.

The bit about the Sith Cultists creating Darth Maul #2? Irrelevant. Their adeptness at an obscure branch of Sith Alchemy speaks nothing for their resistance against lightning.

How exactly does the fact that each act of the force brought him closer to his death mean anything, Gideon? You commit the irrelevant misdirection fallacy way too much. It simply meant that his body couldn't;t handle force usages very well, but it in now way detracts from his actual power at the time. And no, killing one average Jedi and mortally wounding the other isn't special in the least in a World where people can cheat death and use the force to destroy entire races.

Being able to use the force froma distance isn't exclusive to Sidious. Plo Koon was able to telepathically contact another Jedi whilst lightyears away from her.

No, he's really not. Nihilus, Sion, Bane, Nadd, Exar Kun, and numerous Ancients clearly possess more power, and it would be up to you to bring more to the table. Flawed theories and ambiguous text doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. Though, I'm expecting an appeal to majority any time now.

Gideon

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, he's really not. Nihilus, Sion, Bane, Nadd, Exar Kun, and numerous Ancients clearly possess more power, and it would be up to you to bring more to the table. Flawed theories and ambiguous text doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. Though, I'm expecting an appeal to majority any time now.

No, since I've made it explicitly clear that I won't be arguing the case until you bring some measure of evidence to the table. All you've done is asserted that Palpatine is inferior than the above individuals, and you haven't proved it at all. Get back to me when you've got some evidence.

Ultra Omega

Nihilus - mere presence kills and bends beings to his will, can cause destruction on a planetwide scale quickly and with little effort, and has a cosmic level awareness. Has also displayed incredible ability with using multiple abilities at once.

Sion - pure speed, damage resistance, and cheating death.

Nadd - his infinitely lesser self (spirit) could force dominate Masters from halfway across the Galaxy, crush giant statues into millions of pieces, and instantly mend Exar's body after it had been seemingly damaged beyond repair.

Exar - so strong in the darkside that the ground trembled when he walked, was able to freeze thousands, and drain thousands, both effortlessly.

Ancients - a Low Tier Ancient wiped out the life of an entire planet in one force attack.

Bane - Given his pure status within the force (Sith Chosen One), the fact that his power was described as far greater than that of the entire Brotherhood of Darkness, and his showings (which I'll get on to) I'd say Bane is clearly the more powerful of the two.

Take for instance his near complete destruction of Ruusan. He was able to quite simply absorb the power of the other then current BoD Masters in the form of lightning (which puts to shame Corran Horn's gift of energy absorption), which he partially was taking forcefully, so that he could focus their entire combined power into himself (remember that Bane's force powers was stated as being far greater than that of the entire BoD, which would consist of all of these mentioned Masters + more) and unleash their power by himself. Now, rather than be consumed by such a level of power (which was described as being able to consume anything and everything in its path, and would have destroyed the whole of Ruusan if the Sith Masters had stuck with the ritual), he was able to fully harness it, and rather than lose control over it, he was able to direct it on a planet wide scale.

Or, of course, you could consider his BotS incarnation, which grows in power heavily, to the point where he's able to nudge the moon Dxun towards Onderon for a pretty considerable distance.

Now, factor in his fighting smarts, as well as his orbalisk armour, and the fact that he was able to contend with Kas'im, possibly the greatest swordsman ever up until his time on even terms in saber combat, and you have Bane destroying Sidious.

He's likely on par with the Luke Skywalkers of the SWU, and he's clearly beyond Sidious.

fascistcrusader

Look, Ultra Omega, fanboyism and perceived superiority in abilities are nice, but when officially Palpatine is stronger, then no matter what you try to bring up he will always be the strongest. That's just a simple fact.

Darth Sexy

Except Sidious is #1 in the minds of GL, hence all of the canon sources and texts. You already look like a buffoon because you can't win a debate, nor can you debate at all. You look even more pathetic when you constantly argue with canon. Nobody cares about your opinion Noobaris, otherwise you wouldn't have been banned 10+ times. All you're doing now is making everybody laugh.

Gideon

Prove all of it.

The scene is non-canon. Prove it.

1.) Darth Sidious has demonstrated greater speed. You've yet to prove Sion can move faster than the eye can see.

2.) Sidious's Dun Moch and manipulation skills (especially since he's completely aware about the events of Malachor V) are sufficient to eliminate this.

3.) Sidious's Dun Moch and manipulation skills (especially since he's completely aware about the events of Malachor V) are sufficient to eliminate this.

1.) The potency of Palpatine's spirit required the "Force and all the Jedi before us" to hold it in the netherworld.

2.) Palpatine can hurl three automobile sized Senate pods around like wiffle balls, without any trouble.

3.) Kudos for Nadd being a Ghostly First Aid Kit.

1.) Prove that they could all do it.

2.) Palpatine demonstrated a refined control for the siphoning of energy on a galactic scale, and Force Storms possess the power to "rip surfaces off of worlds".

1.) Prove that Bane was the "Sith Chosen One". wink

2.) The Dark Side Sourcebook says that Darth Sidious was the most powerful of Bane's Order. Which includes Bane.

3.) The Essential Guide to the Force says that he is the "grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings".

4.) Sidious was the "unbalance" in the Force that required elimination at the hands of the true Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker. Cue the RotS novelization quotes regarding his status as a "black hole of the Force".

Good luck. smile

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Dude... the burden of proof is not on me. I'm simply pointing out holes in the "Sidious mindwiped millions" theory that people have going on here. The fact is, cloaking devices are not exactly that rare when it comes to ships in the SWU, and the Lusyanka could have easily been cloaked.

As for the air traffic, while there may be a lot in the city areas of Coruscant, there really wouldn't be any in an isolated mountain region. Also, we don't know how large this region was, and how isolated it may have been, meaning that the sound may not even register to the city region. Fact is, nothing indicates that the Lusyanka couldn't have landed in a distant and isolated Mountain area where any kind of noise or shadow wouldn't have been recognised by any of Coruscant's inhabitants. Nothing indicates that the Lusyanka couldn't have been cloaked, preventing anyone from seeing it as it descended into the Planet's atmosphere. Nothing indicates that Palpatine had to do anything more than what is stated: mindwiping the engineers that buried the ship. I appreciate the thought into the theory, I really do, but that's all it is: a theory.

Nothing in canon indicates that Sidious would have had to mindwipe millions...

You do realize that there was a grand total of 2 twin mountain peaks.And even if the were multiple mountains there is nothing to suggest they rivaled the Lusyanka in size.

Let's say that the Empire State Building is the Lusyanka and the buildings surrounding it were the mountains. A ship that size would have descend at a slow rate to get under ground would it not? A seen by smaller ships they don't exactly land as easy as 1,2,3. Now the empire state building(which I now use ESL. L is for Lusyanka) is visible for miles and miles away from the hills in upstate new york and from across the Hudson river in both north and central new jersey. The hills of in upstate NY and NJ could be seen as skyscrapers on corscant and they clear have a view of the ESL. Now even if the Lusyanka was smaller than the mountains there would be a periods in descent that the ship would stick out from the skyline much like the ESL sticks out from the NYC skyline (and the skyscrapers surrounding it) Aswell as being visible from being visible at sea level from NJ and NY.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Manarai_Mountains

Hear they have a pretty good description of what is surrounding the mountains. Not to mention it clearly says that the there were restaurants and the "monument plaza." And by reading the mountains it is pretty clear that is is close such places as the imperial palace. The odds the no one would such an event is impossible. I there was never no mention to a cloaking device so there would have to be a mention of one on the Lusyanka for me to believe and if the ship had one it would certainly be useful while it escaped corscant and the surrounding space above the planet when the republic attacked.

GahLakTus

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Nihilus - mere presence kills and bends beings to his will, can cause destruction on a planetwide scale quickly and with little effort, and has a cosmic level awareness. Has also displayed incredible ability with using multiple abilities at once. Right, mandalore didn't get "killed" by nihilus presence, so was zuka and the mandalorian strike team.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Sion - pure speed, damage resistance, and cheating death.
Pft, so what if we have seen TPM obi wan "move faster than the eye can see" I still could follow his movements, oh right he moved faster than sion so i guess he takes a shit on sion. Sidious moved to a point where he completely could not be seen and this is identical to mace being described as "invisible" in his fight with kar vastor

Originally posted by Ultra Omega

Exar - so strong in the darkside that the ground trembled when he walked, was able to freeze thousands, and drain thousands, both effortlessly.

We saw exar walk, wheres the earth quakes? And he did froze millions considering the size of the senate but so what? He drained thousands with tools, so what?

Funny you try to refute the "sidious mind fu(king the inhabitants of coruscant" when it's clear he mind raped them, yet to try to insist he mind raped the engineers who piloted the ship, oh i forgot for a mere venator star destroyer to be piloted, it takes a crew of a thousands, source : SWI

Now for a 19 000m warship, It certeinly woudld take tens and thousands to merely operate the ship so it coudl fly, And prove that a ship that size could be cloaked, why the hell should it even be cloaked when radar can still detect something of that size?

So yes, palaptine mind raping the inhabitants of coruscant is very likely

Gideon

1.) Substantiate the ground quaking and prove it would be above Sidious.

2.) Hell, Sidious was able to hold the entire Imperial Navy in his thrall during his tenure as Emperor.

3.) Palpatine draining billions on Byss > Exar's thousands. By far.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove all of it.

The scene is non-canon. Prove it.

LMAO. You try to counter this by nitpicking at the least impressive thing I mentioned. Truly wonderful.

Now don't be silly. The scene was taken out of continuity due to time restraints. What we see would therefor fit the Game Developer's vision, and best support explanations of his power mentioned during the game.

Given the evidence on hand, Nihilus is more powerful than Sidious.

Given that TPM Kenobi can, I really don't see what the big deal is. Also, you've yet to prove Sidious can move fast enough to slice off Kreia's hand. Prove it all.

No, they're not, as explained earlier on in the thread. Respond to that first, and then go bring this point up again.

No, they're not, as explained earlier on in the thread. Respond to that first, and then go bring this point up again.

What is this bullshit? There's no proof that such was required. All we know is that those lengths were taken, to make sure that Palpatine's spirit wasn't free to roam the cosmos.

In a setting where Force users can manipulate Black Holes and nudge moons, I fail to see how this is impressive.

Cute.

Excuse me? I didn't assert that all are more powerful than Palpatine, ergo I don't have to. Now, given that the likes of Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, and Kressh were the most renowned of the Ancients for their power in the Golden Age, which the mentioned Ancient Sith Witch was a part of, they, along with her, would all be more powerful than Palpatine.

Elaborate.

And Force Storms are useless in one-on-one scenarios, and speak nothing for personal power. Proves nothing for Sidious' power.

The Sith Chosen One aka The Sith'ari was stated to lead the Sith (which Bane essentially did with his knowledge of ritual Lore from Lehon, where he would literally order Kaan around and manipulated the hell out of him, went behind everyone's backs and would assign orders to the Sith Military), destroy them (which Bane essentially did with providing Kaan with knowledge of the thought bomb and manipulating him into using it), and make them stronger (which Bane essentially did with his Ro2).

Bane is the only one shown to apply on all counts.

Descriptions of the Sith'ari include "perfect power," "perfect being," (which, given Darth "with power far greater than that of the entire BoD" Bane's power, would further support him being the Sith'ari) and someone who would break away from what he knew and build things according to his design (which is what he did with the Ro2).

There's also the fact that PoD is all but screaming at you that he is in fact the Sith'ari. It's one of the major themes in the book, and Kopekz already thought that Bane might be that person after just having met him. The Darth Bane series of books are quite clearly telling the story of the Sith'ari, and it's obvious that that person would be Bane.

Yet, like all of your other quotes, it is inconclusive. The statement speaks as much for political power as it does for personal.

This translates to personal power... how? All that quote proves is that Sidious was able to learn from a millennium of Sith teachings and philosophy, and was a product of all of it.

Again, what is this bullshit? The unbalance had been there before Sidious was born, for thousands of years, ever since the prophecy of the Chosen One had been made.

Already addressed. Reply to that before you bring this up again.

Ultra Omega

Originally posted by Gideon
1.) Substantiate the ground quaking and prove it would be above Sidious.

Given the amount of energy that was directed purely as a product of his raw power with the darkside, it heavily suggests his power would be greater than Sidious'.

Eh? Do you mean he actually physically held it with the force?

WTF?

There were billions of inhabitants on Byss, yes, but it's not like he drained them all at once. He would drain an unknown amount of energy from the planet and inhabitants every now and then to sustain his old age. We don't know how many inhabitants he would drain at any given time, meaning this proves nothing.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
And Force Storms are useless in one-on-one scenarios, and speak nothing for personal power. Proves nothing for Sidious' power.

How does a force storm not mean someone is powerful in the force? H transported Luke from Coruscant to a dungeon ship while he himself was on Byss. The force storm is a wormhole that can destroy fleets of ships and transport people great distances in an instant bending the fabric time and space itself if that does not equal perosnal power in the force than nothing does. Even if it can't be used in a 1 vs 1. situation. Sidious is a single person is defeating muiltiple capital ships of the republic by himself.

Gideon

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
LMAO. You try to counter this by nitpicking at the least impressive thing I mentioned. Truly wonderful.

This is incorrect. To quote Yoda, "there is no try". I've merely used a relatively cheap and absurd defense to compromise your argument, as you've tried to do with mine. The only difference is that I've got more to work with than you; you wanted to play this game, so we'll play it your way.

"Don't be silly" isn't a defense. What's "silly" is you constantly using the absence of proof clause or the ambiguity card to try to make a point when you know you have no proof to support your claims. That is silly. Me? I'm going with canon policy. The cutscene is N-canon. It's a non-issue. It's gone. wink

I'm sorry, but you've yet to list a set of feats where Nihilus compares with Sidious.

a.) I don't have to prove that Sidious can move fast enough to slice of Kreia's hand.

b.) You made the claim that Sion has speed comparable or in excess of Sidious's. You've yet to prove it.

c.) You're the one who kept saying "prove it!". Again, I'm simply using your own methods to compromise your argument.

Yes, they are. You've yet to prove that they can't, whereas I've used logic to reasonably conclude that he is capable of doing so. If he can dick around with the entire galaxy for twenty years, he can logically dick around with Sion, as he's aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.

Yes, they are. You've yet to prove that they can't, whereas I've used logic to reasonably conclude that he is capable of doing so. If he can dick around with the entire galaxy for twenty years, he can logically dick around with Sion, as he's aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.

"Palpatine will never return. The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that." It's plainly obvious. Hell, since the Jedi are legendary for taking measures that will get the job done only -- they've never been one for overkill -- logic concludes this was required.

Yet none of the people you've claimed can do either. Prove that they can. wink

Yes, it's cute, funny, and directly applies. Nadd's mending of Kun is irrelevant.

Prove it. wink

Read Sithisis. He fed off of the anxiety of the Jedi and the carnage all across the galaxy.

Yet no other Force user has demonstrated an attack that rivals it. So, actually, in your attempts to undermine it, all you've proven is that Sidious's most powerful attack -- the most powerful Force maneuver there is -- is not even reaching the pinnacle of his prowess. Thanks. smile

Rofl. Three paragraphs and one sentence of pure speculation. Nothing concrete. Ergo, it's still up for debate. You've proven nothing. This is is now irrelevant. Oh, and since Bane didn't conquer the Jedi or the Republic (like Sidious did) and accomplish the goals of the Sith (like Sidious did), guess he really doesn't qualify for "perfect" does he?

Prove it. The context clearly identifies personal prowess.

Grab a dictionary. Read what it says for culmination.

Wrong.

The Sith hadn't affected the Force like they did during the PT and OT. It was literally dark side ascendance. The Jedi's ability to sense the Force was draining. LoE makes it clear that in preparation for Darth Sidious, the dark side had been "gaining strength".

Prove it was metaphor.