Admiral Firmus Piett

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fascistcrusader
The best in the Imperal Navy.

http://starwars.darth-sonic.de/personen/pic/Colley_Kenneth.jpg

queeq
Yup.

Ushgarak
Kinda like being the tallest man in the dwarf colony though, you know?

queeq
Hehehe

Lord Melkor
Imperial Navy surely isn`t that bad, personnel wise...I liked Needa as well, acted honorably with Vader, instead of trying to put a blame on underling.

fascistcrusader
Not really. In reality the Rebels would have been horribly crushed at Endor. The only thing they have is the "good guys always win" rule. I mean, come on, the 501st smased all opposition in the Clone Wars, but got defeated at Endor? There is no way in hell an ewok with a stick is a more fierce opponent than a B2 or a Droideka.

Back to the Naval aspect, a few Mon Cal transport ships turned into war vessels, a Nebulon B frigate, and some fighters couldn't beat so many Start Destroyers, let alone with the Exectuor along for the ride.

queeq
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Not really. In reality the Rebels would have been horribly crushed at Endor. The only thing they have is the "good guys always win" rule. I mean, come on, the 501st smased all opposition in the Clone Wars, but got defeated at Endor? There is no way in hell an ewok with a stick is a more fierce opponent than a B2 or a Droideka.


But then there was Chewbacca... wink

Ushgarak
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Not really. In reality the Rebels would have been horribly crushed at Endor. The only thing they have is the "good guys always win" rule. I mean, come on, the 501st smased all opposition in the Clone Wars, but got defeated at Endor? There is no way in hell an ewok with a stick is a more fierce opponent than a B2 or a Droideka.

Back to the Naval aspect, a few Mon Cal transport ships turned into war vessels, a Nebulon B frigate, and some fighters couldn't beat so many Start Destroyers, let alone with the Exectuor along for the ride.

Yes, but this ISN'T reaity, it is Star Wars.

So your 'Not really' is just gibberish. YES, really. The Imperials DID lose to the Ewoks, and we didn't see the TIEs take down a single Rebel ship whilst the Rebel fighters took down Star Destroyers.

The Imperials were rubbish. Everyone knows it, it has always been true in Star Wars. Stormtroopers are crap, TIEs turned out to be crap (having started off far more even in ANH) and the naval personnel turned out to be crap as well, with the flagship going down with ease.

But yes, anyone starting off a point here trying to say how things would have gone 'in reality' needs their head checked. The fact that you quote more Star Wars fiction afterwards in support of your 'in reality' point speaks volumes.

In reality there is no Force. In reality, fighrters couldn't fly through space as if it were atmosphere, making noise as if there were atmosphere, along with the rumble of ISDs in the vacuum of space. In reality, no lightsabres or clones of that type or... any of it. What kind of completely insane argument is that, 'in reality'??!

So let's accept the whole thing is a fiction and works within the rules of that fiction. Those rules say- yes, the Rebels would win that battle.

There is no point you saying it wouldn't happen like that. It DID happen like that. End of story.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
Imperial Navy surely isn`t that bad, personnel wise...I liked Needa as well, acted honorably with Vader, instead of trying to put a blame on underling.

I think it is easy to try and read values into them that are not there. As far as I am concerned, he thought that was the best way to try and save his life.

Sesse
Agree I do.


He was in charge of his ship. Thats why they have ranks anyway.
Of course it was better for him to go and apologise for his incompetence than just send a report: "We lost them. Too bad."

Maybe he even tried to reason with vader and present the obvious facts in a tad more positive light.

Lord Melkor
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think it is easy to try and read values into them that are not there. As far as I am concerned, he thought that was the best way to try and save his life.

Hmm, it makes sense, he knew that cowardice would make his position worse. I know that you strongly remind how Star Wars is very black and white tale, and there is ulimately no room for gray area, which is correct in light of some people seeking grey areas everywhere.

But still, you can be evil and have some kind of personal honor, even if based on pride. I would compare it to some of the Hitler`s Generals, like Rommel or Guderian.

And I think that victory on Endor must have seemed like miracle to the Galaxy. Ties were much more effective against Rebels in ANH, and Imperials had overwheling advantage in ESB. Not to mention the Clonetroopers in PT. It actually seems like the performance of bad guys reflects the cosmic struggle within the Force. In ROTJ even Emperor seemed blinded by his overconfidence, which I see as the reverse of the PT situation, where it was Dark Side ascending and good guys unable to see the true menace.

Melcórë
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
Hmm, it makes sense, he knew that cowardice would make his position worse. I know that you strongly remind how Star Wars is very black and white tale, and there is ulimately no room for gray area, which is correct in light of some people seeking grey areas everywhere.

But still, you can be evil and have some kind of personal honor, even if based on pride. I would compare it to some of the Hitler`s Generals, like Rommel or Guderian.

And I think that victory on Endor must have seemed like miracle to the Galaxy. Ties were much more effective against Rebels in ANH, and Imperials had overwheling advantage in ESB. Not to mention the Clonetroopers in PT. It actually seems like the performance of bad guys reflects the cosmic struggle within the Force. In ROTJ even Emperor seemed blinded by his overconfidence, which I see as the reverse of the PT situation, where it was Dark Side ascending and good guys unable to see the true menace.

Was Rommel necessarily "evil"?

fascistcrusader
Touchy, touchy. Did I strike a nerve? In any case, if Star Wars were not a film and were in fact reality in some alternate universe, the events would have gone as I described.

About your calling all of the Empire crap: Why were they so feared if they weren't any threat? Why were stormtroopers the most feared warriors in the galaxy? Why were TIE fighters considered so deadly? Why could one Star Destroyer's presence keep an entire system in line?

You see the problems with your logic.

Ushgarak
As far as can be told, they were feared because there were lots of them and because they had scary war machines- they prioritised such machines over people. The abundant on-screen evidence is that they were useless- as I say, famous for it in film lore. There is nothing more entirely useless than Stormtroopers as guards in the entirity of fictional bad guys- they are synonomous with being simply dreadful. And did lose to Ewoks, after all.

No logical problem at all- all on-screen. And you saying it wouldn't happen in some alternative universe is entirely irrelevant. If you want to re-write the entire plot to suit yourself, fine. But we are discussing a set-up here by George Lucas and clearly his interpretation is that... no, the Empire would lose. Your interpretation is entirely irrelevant. And as I say, if it were in fact reality... none of it would actually be possible.

Write your own sci-fi if you want things to go your way. In GL's creation, the Empire is as it is portrayed- the type of set-up that gets thrashed at Endor.

I do get a bit touchy about extreme stupidity on display, yes.

If you want to argue that there is inconsistency then that is possible. I don't like how crap the Empire appeared to be in ROTJ, and certainly not how useless TIEs had become in comparison to ANH. But there you go, it still happened, it's still a fact, it's still the way it is... and Piett rose to the top of a structure that was, apparently, entirely useless.

What did he ever do right, anyway? Reported on a planet that might be a Rebel base. Wowsa.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
Hmm, it makes sense, he knew that cowardice would make his position worse. I know that you strongly remind how Star Wars is very black and white tale, and there is ulimately no room for gray area, which is correct in light of some people seeking grey areas everywhere.

But still, you can be evil and have some kind of personal honor, even if based on pride. I would compare it to some of the Hitler`s Generals, like Rommel or Guderian.

And I think that victory on Endor must have seemed like miracle to the Galaxy. Ties were much more effective against Rebels in ANH, and Imperials had overwheling advantage in ESB. Not to mention the Clonetroopers in PT. It actually seems like the performance of bad guys reflects the cosmic struggle within the Force. In ROTJ even Emperor seemed blinded by his overconfidence, which I see as the reverse of the PT situation, where it was Dark Side ascending and good guys unable to see the true menace.

Well other than it being entirely clear that Stormtroopers are much worse than Clonetroopers...

... I am fairly sure there is no semblance of honour or what-not in any of the Imperial forces.

fascistcrusader
Actually every source on the subject says stormtroopers are the best of the best, and that Endor was a 1 in a billion miracle. Logically speaking, they should have lost. It is only that way because the good guys have to win in the end. Just concede that point, its the truth.



Read Timothy Zahn's Alliegence.


Also, you might want to stop flaming.

Ushgarak
The most canon source- what we see in the films- says they can get beaten by a bunch of teddy bears and cannot shoot straight.

Keep the EU out of here, thankyou. The rules on this are clearly displayed.

Lana
Why are people attempting to apply real world logic to Star Wars?

Star Wars uses Star Wars logic. Meaning what happens only makes sense because it's SW. Sure, may seem like that's not how it should logically happen, but does it matter? No. Star Wars Logic has zero connect with reality.

The Empire was feared because they had tons of troops, not because they were particularly good. And if you want to try and pull out the whole "but the clonetroopers overran the Jedi!" thing...don't bother. It's called overwhelming numbers and element of surprise. And the stormtroopers are far worse than the clonetroopers were. A bunch of crappy troops can take down anything if there's sufficient numbers.

I can't imagine anyone actually trying to argue that the Empire was - or was meant to be - good at anything. That's just silly. And implies they've never even watched the movies.

Lord Melkor
Well, they aren`t THAT bad. They are scary if you are not a hero. If you are a Rebel soldier like the one on Tantive 4, or Rebel pilot attacking the Death Star that is not Luke Skywalker, the Stormtroopers and Ties are pretty deadly.

fascistcrusader
For a moderator you sure do flame a lot, Ushgarak.

Ushgarak
Calling a spade a spade is no flame; it was all part of my argument.

You seem to have run out of anything to argue back, which is fair enough as it was a bankrupt position anyway.

-

That's the ANH Ties you are talking about there, Melkor, The ROTJ TIEs got shown down in vast numbers.

I've never understood this myth about the 'Rebel Solider' either. Might have been a tad obvious if Leia was travelling around with people in Rebel uniform on board, yet all kinds of sources tend to report people in that uniform as such.

Those people were Organa's Guard and the equivalent of marines on board the ship. Considering Alderan is a pacifist world, little wonder they were not much good.

And so again, we must match troopers versus Ewoks, and see the troopers lose. So it's not just heroes they lose to. They really are... awful.

fascistcrusader
No, calling someone insane, telling them they need their head examined, and calling someone stupid are all personal attacks, and are flaming. I'm amazed at how this forum can runwhen the people meant to enforce the rules have no regard for them.




The ewoks are part of the the heroes, it still falls into that category of good guys always winning. In ANH Ben Kenobi speaks of the accuracy and precision of stormtroopers. They aren't bad, just victims of the good guys win rule.

Lana
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, calling someone insane, telling them they need their head examined, and calling someone stupid are all personal attacks, and are flaming. I'm amazed at how this forum can runwhen the people meant to enforce the rules have no regard for them.




The ewoks are part of the the heroes, it still falls into that category of good guys always winning. In ANH Ben Kenobi speaks of the accuracy and precision of stormtroopers. They aren't bad, just victims of the good guys win rule.

Did it ever occur to you that the people running the forum might have a better idea of the rules than you?

And, uh, Ewoks are part of the heroes? Not so much. They're teddy bears. Primitive teddy bears. Who, admittedly, have an advantage in that forest isn't the best place for stormies, but still.

Ushgarak
It doesn't matter if they are victims of that rule or not- it is not as if mystical Gods intervened on the good guys' side. The way the 'good guys win' rule came out was that the Rebels were clearly considerably better than the Imperials in that fight, who were rubbish.

You call it flaming, I call it a comment on the nature of your argument. Of course you want to call it flaming because you are the butt od it, but that's your fault for advancing it. If you don;t want to risk being ridiculed, then don't post at all. As it is, my post was not flaming- no matter what you sayp as it was all part of my arguing. Grow a thicker skin.

Further comments from you on this will be considered off-topic. Talk about it privately if you desperately feel the need.

Lord Melkor
But why we HAVE to judge them based on ROTJ? And why is the performance of Ties in ROTJ more official than in ANH? It was just one big disaster for Imperials in ROTJ, and destiny was not on their side, if they always performed that bad Alliance would have won long ago.

Besides, even in your roleplaying game Stormtroopers aren`t the worst, they are "average" mooks. And some of the Imperial NPC`s seemed competent. So the Imperial miltary, while based on numbers and firepower rather than finesse, is hardly totally worthless.

fascistcrusader
No, it hadn't. That's because the mods I've had discussions with all act like spoiled children, and bend the rules when they are called out on breaking them.




No, they are teddy bears helping out the alliance, making them part of the group of heroes.

fascistcrusader
Cough..The story's writer..cough.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
But why we HAVE to judge them based on ROTJ? And why is the performance of Ties in ROTJ more official than in ANH? It was just one big disaster for Imperials in ROTJ, and destiny was on their side, if they always performed that bad Alliance would have won long ago.

Besides, even in your roleplaying game Stormtroopers aren`t the worst, they are "average" mooks. And some of the Imperial NPC`s seemed competent. So the Imperial miltary, while based on numbers and firepower rather than finesse, is hardly totally worthless.

Well they are only average in that Battle Droids are even worse. But my game is differently calibrated from the films to make it playable. Same as all these Dark Jedi running around in the PT. Something I have always made clear- despite my respect for canon, my games are not entirely so else they would be unplayable.

ROTJ is the later film, which gives it a certain precedence in being the most recent comment, and unless you say the fleet suddenly got worse, you simply cannot reject the on-screen fact that... that is how bad the fleet actually turned out to be.

ROTJ is a mess, but it is a canonical mess.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Cough..The story's writer..cough.

Who sets the reality of it. And his reality of it was that the Rebels were better, not that things randomly went their way.

fascistcrusader
No, even according to Lucas the Rebels were greatly outmatched, and the vctory at Endor was an amazing, one in a million miracle.

Ushgarak
Outmatched in numbers. But... err... they won through skill and being better. On Endor they won absolutely, and in space the Emperor's plan entirely failed to stop them... simply destroying the Death Star, AND the Imperial flagship, AND at least one other Star Destroyer, with barely any losses at all except from blasts fired by the Death Star itself.

It truly was a display of the Imperials being rubbish. The Rebels won because they were better; the extreme casualty ratio is outright proof of that.

You cannot run away from it- the Imperials were dreadful.

fascistcrusader
Which other Star Destroyer did they get? I don't recall anything but the DS and the Executor going down. I do recall, however, a whole lot of rebel fighters blasted into oblivion. In fact it was one of these downed fighters, through nothing but blind luck, that took out the Executor.



No, it was a display of the heroes winning because they can't lose. The Empire didn't just get stupid all of a sudden between ESB and ROtJ, they lost because they were doomed by the will of Lucas.



No, I'm afraid its you who can't run away from the fact that the Imperials were great, but the God of the Galaxy, George Lucas, didn't let them win.

Lord Melkor
Well, I would argue that your games fit the potrayal of Imperials in ANH and ESB more than ROTJ, Ush, so I wouldn`t say they are against cannon.

Frankly, I like to believe that the real struggle in ROTJ was between Dark and Light Side. Imperials couldn`t win the battle, strorywise, because Luke saved Vader, the Chosen One, and the Emperor was defeated. Just like Jedi couldn`t save themselves from Clonetroopers in ROTS because the Chosen One has fallen. Realism is secondary to story and mythology. Will of the Force trumps all.

FascistCrusader, you can present your points in less agressive way.

Ushgarak
A handful of Rebel fighrers goes down, compared to many, many TIEs. meanwhile, go back and watch again properly. You will see another ISD going up. Clearly if you;'ve not paid that much attention you are not in a great position to comment.

(Regarding the Executor- it was a crash that took out the bridge, sure, but the Executor was already virtually defeated; the Rebels had destroyed the shield generator. It was thus made fatally vulnerable. The Imperials achieved no such success in return, the fighters failing to down a single ship).

Once more- this thing about the Heroes not losing. This is not routed, plot-wise, through magic. It is routed by them, ultimately, being better.

Geroge Lucas wanted to demonstrate that, actually, they had great weakness. It's precisely why he had the Ewoks beat them. That was his plan from the start.

You are in simple denial. The uselessness of the Empire has long been plain. if you want to hide in a world of your own imagining, fine., But in GL's world... they were not good enough to beat a tiny Rebel force and a bunch of spear-wielding primitives. Fact, undeniable.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
Imperials couldn`t win the battle, strorywise, because Luke saved Vader, the Chosen One, and the Emperor was defeated.

Problem with that- they had already lost before it hapopened.

The Rebels had already started the inevitable destruction of the Death Star.

fascistcrusader
Except they didn't do anything but take out the bridge's deflector shield, the rest of the ship was in prime condition and could have wiped out Home One. The only reason it went down was because the Death Star's gravity well pulled it in before the secondary command center was fully activated.



No, the fact is that the Empire should have won, Lucas himself admits this, and that the Empire is great. Look at ANH and ESB. Stop living in your own fanatsy world and see the truth.

Also, this is supposed to be an appreciation thread for the Admiral, not a place for rebel fanboys to try to bash the Empire. Back on topic.

Ushgarak
That's EU talk again- stop that. In the film we see it clear- with the shield down it was fatally vulnerable.

fascistcrusader
No it isn't, that's straight from the film. Did you listen to anything said in the battle? Its made quite clear only the bridge lost its shield, and that the executor would have been fine if it hadn't been pulled into the Death Star.

Also, see above, this whole debate is of topic.

Lord Melkor
I don`t remember that well- at what moment with regard to the Throne Room scene the destruction of the Death Star was trully inevitable? I prefer to think that this is connected- Millienium Falcon wouldn`t make it if the Sith weren`t destroyed. Emperor was blind to the ascendance of the Light Side, and this incompetence inflected his minions. It kind of fits to me, and mirrors PT in a way.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, the fact is that the Empire should have won, Lucas himself admits this, and that the Empire is great. Look at ANH and ESB. Stop living in your own fanatsy world and see the truth.

Also, this is supposed to be an appreciation thread for the Admiral, not a place for rebel fanboys to try to bash the Empire. Back on topic.

ANH? Where they lost the Death Star and hence, ultimately, their entire existence? Yeah, great.

GL doesn't say they should have won as if he made a mistake. He only means the odds favoured them- but rhe reality of it was that they were rubbish. Again- plan, on-screen, lost to Ewoks, fact undeniable. He very clearly talks about wanting to show that with the Ewoks; it was a Vietnam allegory. Despite apparent strength, the fragility of the Imperials is exposed by their primitive foes.

As for Piett- as I say before. He never actually did a single useful thing other than report a possible location of the Rebels.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No it isn't, that's straight from the film. Did you listen to anything said in the battle? Its made quite clear only the bridge lost its shield, and that the executor would have been fine if it hadn't been pulled into the Death Star.

Also, see above, this whole debate is of topic.

This is a manifest lie. You mention about a secondary command centre- that is EU talk. Continue with that and you will be warned.

Once more, the simple logic is this- it loses the shioeld and becomes fatally vulnerable. Again- fact, undeniable.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
I don`t remember that well- at what moment with regard to the Throne Room scene the destruction of the Death Star was trully inevitable? I prefer to think that this is connected- Millienium Falcon wouldn`t make it if the Sith weren`t destroyed. Emperor was blind to the ascendance of the Light Side, and this incompetence inflected his minions. It kind of fits to me, and mirrors PT in a way.

Sadly no matter how much you prefer it, it doesn't happen in the right order.

The Emperor was doomed anyway- Luke actually affected very little other than his own peace of mind.

fascistcrusader
Except for the fact that only 3 rebels survived the battle.



The US army was vastly better in training and skil than the VC,ask anyone your anaolgy is proof in my favor, and says the Stormtroopers were far superior to the ewoks. Thanks for helping me out.



He did plenty of stuff for the Empire, but you hate the EU so I won't share it.

Ushgarak
Well, count the casualties on each side in that battle, and see who comes out on top.

No, the US thought it was better biut still failed. And as I say, GL clearly talks of how he wanted to demonstrate Imperial weakness. And true, it would have been better if he had stuck to Wookies as orignally planned, but there you go, what happened happened.

I do not hate the EU; now you are making up lies. But the policy of where EU belongs is clearly stated. By contrast this is the film section. If you want an EU Piett thread, talk about him in there.

Lord Melkor
Well, maybe it was all predetermined at that moment? That was the will of the force, that Chosen One is redeemed and Empire and Sith fall.

Still, even with the Destuction of the Death Star, Luke turning to the Dark Side and escaping with his Sith Master would be pretty bad.

What was more important actually, Emperor or the Death Star? Star Wars logic says that the force trumps all.

Ushgarak
If it was predetermind before Luke even did it then it was all just a waste of everyone's time., Point is, there is never any connection made between what Luke did and Rebel victory- they actually won anyway.

Luke may as well have not gone- which is a shame for the plot.

Star Wars logic also says that you cannot rule the Galaxy with the Force. You can with the Death Star.

fascistcrusader
No, ask any military expert and you will hear the US was vastly superior. GL's comments prove my point, that the Imperials were better, but they got hit with cheap shots and unfamiliar territory.



You sure act like you hate it.

Ushgarak
For a start, it doesn't matter what experts you ask- GL was still trying to make the point from the way he saw it, which was the mighty Empire (US) humbled and weakness exposed, leading to massive defeat. If you think he was wrong to see it like that, fine, But he still saw it like that.

And no I don't, I am acting like it does not belong here, which is true. What I don't like is, in fact, ROTJ, my least favourite of all the films. But it still is one of them, and this is the film section,so it gets what it is due.

Lord Melkor
Well, it is quite interesting- but didn`t the rule of the Darkside allow the Death Star to be created? I prefer to have it all connected, to preserve the internal logic to the plot. Otherwise, the prophecy of the Chosen One doesn`t make true sens,e unless Vader`s and Luke`s choice determined only the fate of Jedi and Sith, not whether the Galaxy would be saved from the Darkness of the Empire. But it doesn`t fit Star Wars mythology to me.

Ushgarak
Well I think we would all prefer it if ROTJ hadn't torpedoed the consistency of the plot... but it still did.

Sadly that very much is all that Luke and Anakin affected. And the same result would have occurred if Luke had not gone- Vader and Emperor dead, and him alive. Not as happy, but still last force user standing.

fascistcrusader
No, this is a problem of you not interpreting a quote correctly. The Empire being humbled means that it was an incredibly powerful force that had every advantadge, and lost when it should not have.

Why you think it means the Empire sucks at everything is beyond me, but you should work on your reading comoprehension.



Then move this thread to the EU section, please.

Ushgarak
I didn't say it sucked at everything, I said its people were useless, and the on-screen evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of that.

Odd ting is, Piett only has any mythology at all because he survived ESB, and for no other reason. Shame of it is that this distracts from the Imnperial officer we see in the film who actually was any good, which was Veers.

Anyway, I'll close this, because it is somewhat polluted. You can open a new one in EU.

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