Selling Out

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SelphieT
When exactly is the boundary crossed?

What do you consider "selling out"?

What are some bands you think have "sold out"?

I'm just interested in what your opinions are, and I could use some insight.

Alpha Centauri
Duplicate thread, I think.

To answer the questions:

1) When you begin doing things that contradict an earlier stance or set of artistic morals in favour of superficial success or gain, of your own choice or at the suggestion of a label etc. Selling out has nothing to do with the degree of success you acquire. Foo Fighters are huge, but huge on their own terms, it was always their goal to be huge.

Eminem produced a great debut (Not technically a debut, but whatever) album of underground hip hop, professing how he didn't care if you bought his album or not. He had nothing to lose, so he did whatever he wanted, and it resulted in greatness. When he realised that he could earn shitloads more money by being nicer and making it so parents would give their kids permission to buy his album, he sold himself out.

The whole "Developing sound" argument is tricky. Some bands visibly change their appearance or sound because they know that they style they originally believed in is going to get them nowhere, like MCR, Avenged Sevenfold or whatever, those shit bands (Yes, shit being subjective), but people will always say "It's developing sound.".

2) Same as first.

3) Trent Reznor, Eminem, possibly MSI.

-AC

SelphieT
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Duplicate thread, I think.

Yeah, probably, but I searched. Can't say I didn't try to find it. shrug

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To answer the questions:

1) When you begin doing things that contradict an earlier stance or set of artistic morals in favour of superficial success or gain, of your own choice or at the suggestion of a label etc. Selling out has nothing to do with the degree of success you acquire. Foo Fighters are huge, but huge on their own terms, it was always their goal to be huge.

Eminem produced a great debut (Not technically a debut, but whatever) album of underground hip hop, professing how he didn't care if you bought his album or not. He had nothing to lose, so he did whatever he wanted, and it resulted in greatness. When he realised that he could earn shitloads more money by being nicer and making it so parents would give their kids permission to buy his album, he sold himself out.

The whole "Developing sound" argument is tricky. Some bands visibly change their appearance or sound because they know that they style they originally believed in is going to get them nowhere, like MCR, Avenged Sevenfold or whatever, those shit bands (Yes, shit being subjective), but people will always say "It's developing sound.".

2) Same as first.

3) Trent Reznor, Eminem, possibly MSI.

-AC

Very interesting.

FistOfThe North
My take?

Well selling out can mean musically crossing cultures after being totally dedicated to just one culture. OR, just making music purely for the money thus and apparently lowering the musical quality due to irregarding artistry. Takign the side of corporate doners instead of the fan, so to speak, whom provides more dollars.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Well selling out can mean musically crossing cultures after being totally dedicated to just one culture.

Not necessarily.

Usually that's just fans being bitter.

I agree with the rest though.

-AC

FistOfThe North
What if for example a rock and roll musician stop rocking after a nice while, establishing a solid fan base and switched over to rap because he/she saw more fan dollars there?

I consider that selling out.

Alpha Centauri
Yes, but that's switching for those reasons.

I'm talking about when a band suddenly becomes too known to fit in a long-term fan's back pocket, they're often accused of selling out.

-AC

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The whole "Developing sound" argument is tricky. Some bands visibly change their appearance or sound because they know that they style they originally believed in is going to get them nowhere, like MCR, Avenged Sevenfold or whatever, those shit bands (Yes, shit being subjective), but people will always say "It's developing sound.". You do suggest that sometimes sound does develop though?

Alpha Centauri
Of course.

I just think with a little attention you can tell what's bs and what isn't.

Trivium, for example, haven't developed. They've just given up on what they tried at first and taken to just trying to be as much like Metallica as possible.

-AC

Bardock42
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
What if for example a rock and roll musician stop rocking after a nice while, establishing a solid fan base and switched over to rap because he/she saw more fan dollars there?

I consider that selling out. If they do it just for the money, maybe.

But Dylan doing Rock stuff and then Country stuff is just him developing as musician, not selling out, for example.

ragesRemorse
Originally posted by SelphieT
When exactly is the boundary crossed?

What do you consider "selling out"?

What are some bands you think have "sold out"?

I'm just interested in what your opinions are, and I could use some insight.

Creating music by using a formula and lyrics with the only intent of appealing to a mass demographic. Instead of producing music from the passion inside is selling out.

I think its silly to say, that because a band or artist changes their musical philosophy and sound means they are selling out. Art is endless. If one chooses to explore the many different facets of what the music universe has to offer while staying true to their artistic integrity. Then i dont think there is anything wrong with changing your style and philosophy. Neil young, david Bowie, bob Dylan and even Led Zeppelin all experimented with sounds that were radical departures from their base formula. Music today is cemented in genre's though. So people are much more prone to start shitting out of their mouth, an accusation that an artist or band has sold out because they try something new.
I also dont believe it has anything to do with money. If your making a living off of your art. You have to approach the business aspect of your art with a greedy mentality.

I think Metallica sold out with Load and Reload.
Oukast sold out with stankonia
Sum 41 sold out with their latest album, the album that shall not be spoken

Nellinator
Originally posted by Bardock42
If they do it just for the money, maybe.

But Dylan doing Rock stuff and then Country stuff is just him developing as musician, not selling out, for example. To be fair he was never far away. When do you consider him to have switched over? To me I think he always had country in some of his songs and it just became for frequent.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Of course.

I just think with a little attention you can tell what's bs and what isn't.

Trivium, for example, haven't developed. They've just given up on what they tried at first and taken to just trying to be as much like Metallica as possible.

-AC Sad thing is that they were actually somewhat successful beforehand.

Another though I'd add is that sometimes bands sell out in very odd ways. Testament becoming death metal, for example, was not a natural development, but more of an attempt at regaining/gaining credibility in the metal community after releasing the relatively accessible Ritual. I'd almost say they sold out twice. First trying to duplicate Metallica success with the Black Album clone Ritual then in an attempt to gain credibility with Demonic and Low.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Nellinator
To be fair he was never far away. When do you consider him to have switched over? To me I think he always had country in some of his songs and it just became for frequent.

Well, I guess most people consider Nashville Skyline to be pretty different. But that's kinda my point, his sounds just evolved, not against his believes or for money, just because at the time he was more interested in Country sounds.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by SelphieT


...What do you consider "selling out"? ...





"Selling out" to me, is simply when an artist lets greed influence their music (and even their image) in a major way.

Impediment
I feel that Korn sold out after releasing "Follow the Leader".

I could be wrong, but I feel as though they did.

I adore their first two albums to this day, but I never identified with any others.

SelphieT
Originally posted by Impediment
I feel that Korn sold out after releasing "Follow the Leader".

I could be wrong, but I feel as though they did.

I adore their first two albums to this day, but I never identified with any others.

Hmm, I don't I've ever heard any of their stuff before that album. But I've never really cared for Korn. Hah, I almost spelled "cared" with a "k". Heh.......

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Impediment
I feel that Korn sold out after releasing "Follow the Leader".

I could be wrong, but I feel as though they did.

I adore their first two albums to this day, but I never identified with any others.

Do you feel they sold out simply because you stopped identifying with them? That'd be wrong, in my opinion.

-AC

Impediment
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you feel they sold out simply because you stopped identifying with them? That'd be wrong, in my opinion.

-AC


Well...............maybe I jumped the gun when I used "not identifying" as an excuse.

It's just that if you listen to "Life is Peachy" and then to "Follow the Leader", the two albums are polar opposites, at least in my opinion. How can Jon Davis write a song that is as beautiful as it is horrible called "Kill You" which is as gutteral and hateful as any song I've ever heard, and then, on the next album, write a song called "Got the Life" in which he brags about his bank account and lifestyle? It just seems to me that after Korn became a household name for most metal heads, they drastically changed both sound and image.

Alpha Centauri
Got the Life wasn't actually written with that basic a meaning, though.

It's about how he has everything he can think of, but a lot of it isn't necessarily wanted. The price of fame etc.

-AC

Impediment
Would you agree, though, that both image and sound changed after their third album release? I'm anxious to hear opinions here. I, personally, love the first two albums. Every album after, I hated. Probably because of the weakened music/lyrics that, in my opinion, for the majority, became very whiny and melancholy. There are one or two songs from the newer albums that I kind've like, I have to admit.

Alpha Centauri
Obviously, whether or not that could be considered selling out is debateable.

I mean, it's considered a pioneering "nu-metal" album, so it's not like they dived on a trend.

-AC

Impediment
You're probably right.

As far as "trend jumpings" go, I wouldn't know, as I've never been much of a trendie person, musically speaking.

Nellinator
Korn is an excellent album and Life Is Peachy is one of the weirdest collection of songs I've ever heard. I kinda of liked Follow the Leader as well, but nothing afterwards. I don't think they ever really sold out though. I honestly feel their newest album was simply a change in their sound, not for money though. I think it's crap, but I don't think it's them looking for commercial success. There songwriting degenerated over time imo not from selling out, but from apathy and lack of effort.

Alpha Centauri
I agree, because even their more recent stuff still sounds like trademark Korn.

-AC

Impediment
I actually kinda liked some of the songs from "Issues" and "The Untouchables", but the majority of the albums, IMO, were for shit.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Impediment
I actually kinda liked some of the songs from "Issues" and "The Untouchables", but the majority of the albums, IMO, were for shit. Totally agreed. I didn't like anything off Take A Look in the Mirror, but I thought some off See You On the Other Side was okay. I liked that one better than Untouchables. The newest is garbage imo.

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