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Seeing as how the jedi vs sith guide to the force thread has gotten into this I thought to make a thread concerning how,when and why Revan fell to the darkside.

Well, if we follow the evidence from the games, it would seem Revan fell (like I said in the other thread) just prior to/near the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars. Otherwise, he would surely have been apprehended or reprimanded by the Jedi Council when searching there for the Ancient Ruins.

BTW: Feel free to elaborate on what JvS. says for those of us who don't have it....

Interest rates are better when you are on the dark side of the force. He had a lot of stock and he was a shrewd businessman.

In my opinion, Revan never fell to the Dark Side. Sure, he learned the secrets of the Ancient Sith, and gained powers forbidden by Jedi, and he murdered many in the name of power and greed, but he was far above the simple menial divisions of Light and Dark.

Revan merely became smart enough to understand that:

A) Following the Code of the Jedi and forbidding certain techniques and/or means of acquisition of power (murder, learning from the Sith) would only limit him.
B) In order to ensure tranquility and harmony, chaos would inevitably have to ensue. However, such chaos would have to be both controlled and orderly in essence.

To say he completely fell to the Dark Side obviously doesn't take into account many of his actions and objectives. He chose to strive for strength because of the threat he learned of from the True Sith. He killed many because they caused disruption within the Republic. He fought a war against the Republic because its leadership was too weak to defend it from the coming storm. He didn't kill those who stood in his way either, he always attempted to turn them to his cause first.

I think his actions and objectives differ greatly from the Sith. It's merely the means in which he accomplishes some of them in which he has any similarity.

The argument is very silly. Revan is said to have embraced the Darkness-look at his Holocron!

His fighting the Truth Sith was one Sith defending his territory from other. No more, no less

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The argument is very silly. Revan is said to have embraced the Darkness-look at his Holocron!

His fighting the Truth Sith was one Sith defending his territory from other. No more, no less

Um sorry lightsnake but that is a gross misrepresentation of Revan's goals. Yes he did turn to the darkside but because he believed a DLOTS could stand against the "True Sith", and he was getting the republic ready for it. It has absolutely nothing to do with one sith guarding his territory from another. Now THATS silly.

Noble goals at the start don't matter. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Revan was not a good person after he fell.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Noble goals at the start don't matter. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Revan was not a good person after he fell.

From your point of view maybe not, from his, he was doing it to save the galaxy. I guess you can compare his ideals to that of Jacens, sort of, except for the fact that Revan was smarter and had more control.

No, you're not understanding what Lightsnake was saying. His intentions were good at the beginning, until he truly fell and was fully immersed in the Sith Ways. It's not very hard to understand.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, you're not understanding what Lightsnake was saying. His intentions were good at the beginning, until he truly fell and was fully immersed in the Sith Ways. It's not very hard to understand.

We know he was fully immersed in the sith ways Noobaris, yet that doesn't take away the fact that he thought he was serving a greater purpose, which is the continual existence of the republic. Even when he made his holocron, he was attacking only certain parts of the republic that needed to be brought down, while leaving others alone.

Again, misunderstanding on your part.

Revan, by the time he had made his Holocron, was fully immersed in the Sith Ways and very evil. His goals were no longer noble, as indicated by the fact that he left behind his Holocron for darksiders to learn from in the future.

His "for the greater good" approach was only there when he chose to use the darkside to build a fighting force capable of challenging the Ancient Sith, yet evidently at some point it was no longer his philosophy as indicated by the fact that he wanted to preserve the teachings of the Sith and wanted to ensure its success for the future.

Or Revan wanted the sith to control the republic while focusing on the outside threat of the "True Sith". We can go round and round with this Noobaris, because there are alternative theories for Revan's goals. Furthermore, the ancient sith and the true sith aren't the same groups.

I'm siding with Lightsnake and Nebaris on this one, as they're correct in principle. For whatever reason, you're making it quite clear that Darth Revan utilized dark side techniques and powers to accomplish light side goals -- it's not possible. Using the dark side and immersing yourself into it as heavily as Revan isn't possible without a great deal of corruption. Luke Skywalker -- the man who rejected Emperor Palpatine at Endor -- surrendered himself to the dark side with "good intentions" in mind: to destroy the Reborn Emperor from within. He managed some minimal success; he learned Palpatine's secrets and sabotaged many Imperial war schemes (though unaware that Palpatine was aware of it). But even he didn't come out unscathed, and admits that without Leia's loving presence, he would have never defeated Palpatine or rejected the dark side.

As brilliant as Revan is, canon shows that all who use the dark side heavily end up corrupted by it, even if they renounce it in the end. Revan didn't come close to mastering it. It mastered him.

The truth is, there are conflicting sources. The one (KotOR II) would seem to exhibit the belief that Revan NEVER "fell" to the Dark Side. The Holocron from PoD, however, clearly makes it appear as if Revan full-embraced the Dark Side to the point of being truly evil.

Personally, I've speculated whether or not Revan made his Holocron AFTER the events of KotOR, when he disappeared and was not seen again.

how could be after? he was a lightsider then and wouldn't have made a holocron that pretty much glorifies the dark side.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm siding with Lightsnake and Nebaris on this one, as they're correct in principle. For whatever reason, you're making it quite clear that Darth Revan utilized dark side techniques and powers to accomplish light side goals -- it's not possible. Using the dark side and immersing yourself into it as heavily as Revan isn't possible without a great deal of corruption. Luke Skywalker -- the man who rejected Emperor Palpatine at Endor -- surrendered himself to the dark side with "good intentions" in mind: to destroy the Reborn Emperor from within. He managed some minimal success; he learned Palpatine's secrets and sabotaged many Imperial war schemes (though unaware that Palpatine was aware of it). But even he didn't come out unscathed, and admits that without Leia's loving presence, he would have never defeated Palpatine or rejected the dark side.

As brilliant as Revan is, canon shows that all who use the dark side heavily end up corrupted by it, even if they renounce it in the end. Revan didn't come close to mastering it. It mastered him.

I completely disagree Escape. We have the knowledge of Darth Vectivus who was a sith lord and yet he was called a very fair businessman. I don't argue that Revan wasn't corrupted, but I argue the fact that he still had that same goal of defending the republic from an outside threat.

You all seem to be going on the stance (not particularly heeded with regards the EU) that an "evil" character is always "evil." Like I said, it's just speculation on my behalf, and nothing more. If you'd like to better understand my reasoning, I'll speak more of it later....

Revan being like Jacen kind of helps my point. Can you seriously argue Jacen isn't totally evil now?

No, but we can still argue that Revan's goals were the same regardless of his evil. Again, I gave you the Darth Vectivus example.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I completely disagree Escape. We have the knowledge of Darth Vectivus who was a sith lord and yet he was called a very fair businessman. I don't argue that Revan wasn't corrupted, but I argue the fact that he still had that same goal of defending the republic from an outside threat.

Exactly what do we know about Vectivus? All we have are Lumiya's obviously biased accounts. Furthermore, for that analogy to work, you'd have to say that Vectivus was as steeped in the dark side as Revan.

Yea but now you are getting into levels of darkside immersion, sort of like a hierarchy. What is the point at which a dark side user gets corrupted? Are we to say someone like Ragnos was corrupted just because he had an uber mastery of the darkside?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea but now you are getting into levels of darkside immersion, sort of like a hierarchy. What is the point at which a dark side user gets corrupted? Are we to say someone like Ragnos was corrupted just because he had an uber mastery of the darkside?

Incorrect. You're arguing goals. I'm arguing methods. Revan's Machiavellian delusions that the ends justify the means are testament to his evil. When he joined the dark side, he was evil. This is incontrovertible. He was a murderer and a traitor. Adolf Hitler believed that he'd make the world better and stronger by removing the Jews from the face of the Earth. His goal was noble. Were his methods?

When do we see him murdering somebody?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When do we see him murdering somebody?

His actions against the Republic can be constituted as murder.

I don't see why there is an argument over this. Revan fell to the Dark Side, this has been verified. Now, I personally don't like the black and white laws that Lucas has given to Star Wars, but what I like doesn't matter for jack shit. It has been made clear by Lucas than one cannot can delve so deeply into the Dark Side without being corrupted.

Revan himself said it best is in own holocron.

Those who use the dark side are also bound to serve it. To understand this is to understand the underlying philosophy of the Sith.

-Revan's Holocron.

Odd words for a Sith Lord, most Sith seem to think that they control the Dark Side. Revan outright says that those who use the dark side are bound to serve it.

Now, granted the exact meaning of what Revan meant isn't very clear, but in my opinion is a mute point.

Revan started with good intentions and probably clung to those intentions even when he was at his darkest. Did it really change anything? No, not really.

I suppose what it comes down to is the definition of right and wrong, which can have 12 definitions for 12 different people. However, in the Star Wars universe it is fairly well documented that, Dark Side = bad and Light Side = good, with very little exception.

here's a thought i had the other day: Since we never seen any evidence of "The True Sith" Is it possible that Revan leaves the galaxy searching for the threat he feels coming? He feels it coming, thinks the only thing that can challenge him is other Sith, stronger than he, so he calls it the "True Sith" But what he is really sensing is the Vong?

When it comes to intergalatic travel. (they came from another, galaxy, right?) another two thousand years would not change their circumstances at all. They would still be in-transit, still searching for a home world. So if he was strong enough in the force, he might sense a threat of that magnitude even 2000 years before it arrived. what are the chances?

^ I would say not high at all because there was only one scouting ship in the galaxy by that time.(which Canderous scared off) I think the ship was gone from its home fleet for a long time and for a great distance seeing as how long it takes the vong to appear again. And the true sith were the ones that goaded the mandos. into attacking the republic. And I think I recall that the mandos. were not allowed to step foot on Malachor which is why Revan investigated and found evidence of the true sith(the trayus academy among the planet full of the darkside which the vong can't sense the force or wield it) and possibly of the star forge. Furthermore Revan knows what sith are (the ideal and probably the species) so why would not just call it invaders since the vong have no force connection.

So who are these true sith? and if that powerful, why do we never seen evidence. Some of the things that darth Traya says makes it sound like he was going to find beings that distorted the force, which could be intepreted as really strong in the force, OR, and this is what had me thinking about it: As someone who had no force connection, which would make it an anomaly.

We will know if there is ever another kotor game or a novel about them so gods knows how long we have to wait.

"Gideon."

"Account Restricted."

hehe.......

They couldn't handle his awesomeness.

Who is/was Gideon and why did he get banned?

lol

Idk who he was