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a very well fed Galactus sits on the moon, having constructed a space bridge from the Earth to the Moon.

The Flash, The Silver Surfer, Thor, Superman, The Hulk and Juggernaut all take turns, going from the Earth to the Moon and attempting to PUNCH Galactus off it (or obliterate him entirely).

since Flash' IMP is just a punch delivered at speeds approaching or exceeding C, then it's pretty certain that Superman and Surfer will similarly be able to deliver them. Thor's supposed to have 3x C, perhaps he could do it too.

Hulk's strength has no top end to it, and his muscles will not fatigue so he can obviously just continue to get more and more powerful on the way to the Moon.

Juggernaut won't really benefit from any of that, but maybe he can barge/push/punch Galactus off the Moon.


in this scenario, Galactus promises not to hold a grudge nor swat any of the competitors aside, nor unduly favour Surfer. Galactus will be a good sport .


so, who can do it, who can "IMP" Galactus' arse off the Moon, and moreover who can do it the fastest?

Originally posted by janus77
a very well fed Galactus sits on the moon, having constructed a space bridge from the Earth to the Moon.

The Flash, The Silver Surfer, Thor, Superman, The Hulk and Juggernaut all take turns, going from the Earth to the Moon and attempting to PUNCH Galactus off it (or obliterate him entirely).

since Flash' IMP is just a punch delivered at speeds approaching or exceeding C, then it's pretty certain that Superman and Surfer will similarly be able to deliver them. Thor's supposed to have 3x C, perhaps he could do it too.

Hulk's strength has no top end to it, and his muscles will not fatigue so he can obviously just continue to get more and more powerful on the way to the Moon.

Juggernaut won't really benefit from any of that, but maybe he can barge/push/punch Galactus off the Moon.


in this scenario, Galactus promises not to hold a grudge nor swat any of the competitors aside, nor unduly favour Surfer. Galactus will be a good sport .


so, who can do it, who can "IMP" Galactus' arse off the Moon, and moreover who can do it the fastest?

WHAT!? You dare to defile the legent of the "IMP" by saying that just since Thor swings his hammer at 2x light speed he comes within a similar damage potential!

Blasphemy!

Originally posted by Kutulu
WHAT!? You dare to defile the legent of the "IMP" by saying that just since Thor swings his hammer at 2x light speed he comes within a similar damage potential!

Blasphemy!
that's 3x C

umm, well ... I had a look for the IMP and found it was just an application of Einstein's famous theory. so... I guess ALL characters that can go beyond lightspeeds can do IMPs. why restrict it to The Flash?

Surfer should be able to out IMP The Flash, hell he should be able to destroy the universe with the amount of mass he'd rip up on his way to C.

Originally posted by janus77
that's 3x C

umm, well ... I had a look for the IMP and found it was just an application of Einstein's famous theory. so... I guess ALL characters that can go beyond lightspeeds can do IMPs. why restrict it to The Flash?

Surfer should be able to out IMP The Flash, hell he should be able to destroy the universe with the amount of mass he'd rip up on his way to C.

But Surfer enters Hyperspace in order to overcome C.

That being said, the scans of Thor going 3x lightspeed made no mention of hyperspace. So I guess going by DC fanboy logic, that would mean one hammerstrike from Thor would be 3 times the damage of an I.M.P..

Originally posted by Kutulu
But Surfer enters Hyperspace in order to overcome C.

That being said, the scans of Thor going 3x lightspeed made no mention of hyperspace. So I guess going by DC fanboy logic, that would mean one hammerstrike from Thor would be 3 times the damage of an I.M.P..
Surfer chooses to enter hyperspace, if I'm not mistaken. he's gone faster than light in Earth too, scanning the entire planet in a couple of seconds.

the Hyperspace and the Speedforce need not take anything away from the "science" of the IMP.

Surfer still goes through matter and planetary bodies, so does Flash, just both at speeds surpassing C.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer chooses to enter hyperspace, if I'm not mistaken. he's gone faster than light in Earth too, scanning the entire planet in a couple of seconds.

the Hyperspace and the Speedforce need not take anything away from the "science" of the IMP.

Surfer still goes through matter and planetary bodies, so does Flash, just both at speeds surpassing C.

Ahh but you forget, this is KMC where if a DC character and a Marvel character to the same thing, it's obvious that the DC character's version is more powerful, for example Flash's I.M.P. > Thor throwing his hammer at 2C.

surfer has never gone ftl on earth


And flash still has the hardest punch here

He can punch over 100k times the speed of light

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
surfer has never gone ftl on earth


And flash still has the hardest punch here

He can punch over 100k times the speed of light

^^ Case in point.

lol,
true.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
surfer has never gone ftl on earth


And flash still has the hardest punch here

He can punch over 100k times the speed of light
he went and searched all over the entire planet in the space of a few seconds, that is way faster than light.

and also, he CAN go FTL on Earth since he doesn't require anything more than his board (if that) to go from a standing start to many thousands (millions, iirc) of multiples of the speed of light.

if Surfer was wont to do so, I'm sure he could throw punches at 100s of thousands of times C. it's just a given for any character that can operate at speeds approaching and surpassing C.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
surfer has never gone ftl on earth


And flash still has the hardest punch here

He can punch over 100k times the speed of light

do you guys actually think that is cool? i mean, why are there still villians in his comic?

Surfer doesn't have villains so much as neurosis , and Thor's fighting Godlings, so it suits him to have that kind of power.

For whatever reasons, the writer of the Flash wanted to portray and exploit some relativistic effects of near luminal speeds, while 'Deus Ex Machina'ing the rest.

For unrelated reasons, other writers of fast characters have chosen to ignore these effects, perhaps considering them eliminated by Thor's magic, the Surfer's power cosmic, Superman's S-Shield, et cetera.

The Surfer has never used an infinite mass bullrush, and there has been no mention of him experiencing any sort of relativistic effects due to his near-light speed travel. Similarly for Thor's few showings of C-speed. To pretend that either character is capable of taking advantage of said effects is a joke - it's something neither has ever displayed in their past.

Originally posted by Soljer
For whatever reasons, the writer of the Flash wanted to portray and exploit some relativistic effects of near luminal speeds, while 'Deus Ex Machina'ing the rest.

For unrelated reasons, other writers of fast characters have chosen to ignore these effects, perhaps considering them eliminated by Thor's magic, the Surfer's power cosmic, Superman's S-Shield, et cetera.

The Surfer has never used an infinite mass bullrush, and there has been no mention of him experiencing any sort of relativistic effects due to his near-light speed travel. Similarly for Thor's few showings of C-speed. To pretend that either character is capable of taking advantage of said effects is a joke - it's something neither has ever displayed in their past.

Unless Thor went to DC Universe, where every hammer throw would be an Infinite Mass Punch x 2.

As Soljer touched on...

While characters in Marvel are capable of > light speeds -- it doesn't automatically mean they are capable of achieving 'infinite mass'.

A true IMP is only accomplished because of Flash's connection to the Speed Force -- the IMP is a plot device within a plot device, really.

Originally posted by Soljer
For whatever reasons, the writer of the Flash wanted to portray and exploit some relativistic effects of near luminal speeds, while 'Deus Ex Machina'ing the rest.

For unrelated reasons, other writers of fast characters have chosen to ignore these effects, perhaps considering them eliminated by Thor's magic, the Surfer's power cosmic, Superman's S-Shield, et cetera.

The Surfer has never used an infinite mass bullrush, and there has been no mention of him experiencing any sort of relativistic effects due to his near-light speed travel. Similarly for Thor's few showings of C-speed. To pretend that either character is capable of taking advantage of said effects is a joke - it's something neither has ever displayed in their past.
lol,
it is neither a joke nor somehow 'negated' by their auras/forces etc.

it's simple reason. if Flash's "infinite mass" comes from the fact that he travels at C (and above) whilst swinging his fist, then it is a PERFECTLY REASONABLE supposition to make that, when in KMC versus battles rivals with the ability to do multiples of C will also be doing multiple "IMPs".

bluster isn't very good as a form of rebuttal.


Surfer doesn't need to show IMPs, he merely needs to demonstrate that he can move his hands are lightspeeds and beyond, which he did and does, often. the infamous failure to grab the IG from Thanos being the most embarrassing demonstration of the basic ability.

Thor just hits shit with Mjolnir at lightspeed, that's all he'd need to do in a vs battle with Flash.

Originally posted by Galan007
As Soljer touched on...

While characters in Marvel are capable of > light speeds -- it doesn't automatically mean they are capable of achieving 'infinite mass'.

A true IMP is only accomplished because of Flash's connection to the Speed Force -- the IMP is a plot device within a plot device, really.
nope, doesn't have anything to do with the Speedforce. it is a selective application of 'real world' physics. and if we're going to accept IMP for Flash, we accept it for anyone who can physically throw a punch whilst travelling at speeds around C.

does Thor or Surfer ever provide a reason why they do not obtain infinite mass, seeing as that would be the default expectation when travelling at C?

Originally posted by janus77
nope, doesn't have anything to do with the Speedforce. it is a selective application of 'real world' physics. and if we're going to accept IMP for Flash, we accept it for anyone who can physically throw a punch whilst travelling at speeds around C.

does Thor or Surfer ever provide a reason why they do not obtain infinite mass, seeing as that would be the default expectation when travelling at C?

Surfer enters Hyperspace. That is his explanation.

Thor well... he's just damn powerful and does it straight up.

I love it, the same people complaining about Hulk holding up 150 billion tons just glance over selective use of relativistic thoerem when it comes to their DC characters. lmao

Originally posted by janus77
nope, doesn't have anything to do with the Speedforce. it is a selective application of 'real world' physics. Is that so?

Then would you mind explaining to me how Zoom, , wasn't IMP'ing every single time he hit someone?

I have an explination -- could it be because Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus is unable to achieve the mass required for an IMP?

imo,
It is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you are trying to make it sound.

Originally posted by Galan007
Is that so?

Then would you mind explaining to me how Zoom, , wasn't IMP'ing every single time he hit someone?

I have an explination -- could it be because Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus is unable to achieve the mass required for an IMP?


It is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you are trying to make it sound.

Zoom manipulates time. Cut-and-dry.

Originally posted by Galan007
Is that so?

Then would you mind explaining to me how Zoom, , wasn't IMP'ing someone every single time he punched them?

I have an explination -- It's because Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus unable to achieve the mass required for an IMP.


It is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you are trying to make it sound.
are you suggesting Einstein was postulating about a phenomena EXCLUSIVE to The Speedforce?
'cos I would be surprised if that wasn't the logical implication of what you're saying.

Kutulu's explanation is the correct one regarding Zoom, mine is a more generic answer... because DC (like marvel, like all comics) applies "science" selectively.

that being said, Flash's showstopper unfortunately happens to be a rather common ability... hitting people really really really fast - ergo any character with C and above motion is capable of it, in a vs battle.




Hyperspace is in space and it is entered into by Surfer to traverse the vastness of the cosmos, iirc. it doesn't necessarily kick-in just to facilitate his entry to C and above speeds.

Flash drops the multiverse on his domepiece...

Originally posted by janus77
Zoom doesn't throw IMPs because DC (like marvel, like all comics) applies "science" selectively.

I'm just using your little theory in cunjunction with characters from the same company. .

But now it's along the lines of...

"Well even though Zoom can move at C+ speeds, and by my own accord should be able to IMP... he just doesn't."


But of course,
A slower character's ability to IMP, has nothing to do with the Speed Force or anything, right? lol

okie dokie.

Originally posted by janus77
that being said, Flash's showstopper unfortunately happens to be a rather common ability... hitting people really really really fast - ergo any character with C and above motion is capable of it, in a vs battle. Your theory has bigger holes then Jenna Jameson. srsly

It's clear that the Surfer and Thor do not infinite mass punch, not only because they've never demonstrated the capability, but also because for them to take advantage of true relativistic effects, they would also be subject to it's disadvantages - namely length contraction and the requirement for an infinite sum of energy.

The Surfer, clearly, does not have infinite energy, nor does Thor. Not to mention the fact that they do not suddenly become two dimensional while travelling at C.

Why does the Flash not suffer from said effects? Speedforce. The fact that one character is from DC and one from Marvel makes no difference. The Flash has been written as capable, the Surfer and Thor have not been - we cannot assume otherwise cause we feel like it.

Originally posted by Soljer
It's clear that the Surfer and Thor do not infinite mass punch, not only because they've never demonstrated the capability, but also because for them to take advantage of true relativistic effects, they would also be subject to it's disadvantages - namely length contraction and the requirement for an infinite sum of energy.

The Surfer, clearly, does not have infinite energy, nor does Thor. Not to mention the fact that they do not suddenly become two dimensional while travelling at C.

Why does the Flash not suffer from said effects? Speedforce. The fact that one character is from DC and one from Marvel makes no difference. The Flash has been written as capable, the Surfer and Thor have not been - we cannot assume otherwise cause we feel like it.
yet both Surfer and Thor travel at C and above, can hit people whilst travelling at those velocities and so definitely have mass.

the Speedforce takes care of the elongation and the need for infinite energy, but it doesn't actually produce the infinite mass punch, that's just the application of 'science' to an object going at C. not how it gets there.

as I say, it's because it is basically hitting someone really really really really fast, that it is quite feasible for any of the FTL types.


what did Surfer plan to grab the IG with, when he reached out his hand, whilst travelling at 1000s of multiples of C?

Originally posted by janus77
what did Surfer plan to grab the IG with, when he reached out his hand, whilst travelling at 1000s of multiples of C? So Surfer's attempt at grabbing the IG from Thanos at those speeds, means he was at infinite mass? I don't follow.

Originally posted by janus77
yet both Surfer and Thor travel at C and above, can hit people whilst travelling at those velocities and so definitely have mass.


Yet they have never mentioned taking advantage of, or coping with relativistic effects, so we cannot assume they are capable. You're trying to pull feats where there are none.

Do they exhibit infinite energy? Do they, suddenly, become two dimensional? No.

Originally posted by janus77

the Speedforce takes care of the elongation and the need for infinite energy, but it doesn't actually produce the infinite mass punch, that's just the application of 'science' to an object going at C. not how it gets there.

Absolutely true, the speedforce removes whatever effects of C-travel the Flash doesn't feel like experiencing, leaves the rest. It lets him pick and choose - something Thor and the Surfer haven't been portrayed as benefiting from.
Originally posted by janus77

as I say, it's because it is basically hitting someone really really really really fast, that it is quite feasible for any of the FTL types.

That's a very very simplistic view of something. You're picking and choosing whatever effects you would like from both simple Newtonian mechanics and relativity and trying to combine them, and imprint them upon characters who have never accomplished something similar in their past. Ignorance.

Originally posted by janus77

what did Surfer plan to grab the IG with, when he reached out his hand, whilst travelling at 1000s of multiples of C?

His hand. He could move his hand because said hand was not composed of infinite mass, nor was it contracted to a two dimensional space.

I'm loving watching the DC elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this. Keep going. Zoom uses time to travel FTL, therefore does not have relativistic effects. Superman moves by manipulating space.

Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?

Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch. It's funny that Flash's Infinite Mass Punch wasn't used to K.O. Superboy Prime, since he can use it "thousands of times", but when it comes to an actual comic, is never used more than once.

Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I'm loving watching the DC elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this. Keep going. Zoom uses time to travel FTL, therefore does not have relativistic effects. Superman moves by manipulating space.

Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?

Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch. It's funny that Flash's Infinite Mass Punch wasn't used to K.O. Superboy Prime, since he can use it "thousands of times", but when it comes to an actual comic, is never used more than once.

Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this. The phrase,
"Pot calling the kettle black", rings a bell.


and incase you hadn't noticed -- the little theories janus is propogating in this thread, do not hold water. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
The phrase,
"Pot calling the kettle black", rings a bell.


and incase you hadn't noticed -- the little theories janus is propogating in this thread, do not hold water. srsly

Last time I posted a picture of a pot calling the kettle black I got reported for racism.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Last time I posted a picture of a pot calling the kettle black I got reported for racism. I actually lol'd at that.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I'm loving watching the DC elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this.

There is no squirming going on by Galan or myself - we're simply pointing out huge inconsistencies in your and Janus' arguments.

Originally posted by Kutulu

Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?

The very odinforce that, plainly, protects him from relativistic effects.

Originally posted by Kutulu

Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch.
Where did I ever pretend otherwise? I use the term 'infinite mass punch' as a title, nothing more. No one ever hypothesized that the fist that the Flash hits with was actually comprised of infinite mass.

Originally posted by Kutulu

Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this.

Because Superboy Prime was quite plainly faster than the Flash, and such a punch likely wouldn't have hurt him anyways?

Originally posted by Kutulu
I'm loving watching the DC elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this. Keep going. Zoom uses time to travel FTL, therefore does not have relativistic effects. Superman moves by manipulating space.

Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?

Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch. It's funny that Flash's Infinite Mass Punch wasn't used to K.O. Superboy Prime, since he can use it "thousands of times", but when it comes to an actual comic, is never used more than once.

Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this.

It's well known that Zoom's powerset doesn't entirely make sense. And that he's faster than most Flash's.

To say that someone can do an IMP just because they can go FTL........is scientifically corect, IMO. BUT, this being comics, we assume that they cannot do it if not demonstrated. What most FTLers do is go full out and punch. Which is basically a speed punch. The IMP, as Soljer and Galan said, is pseudo-physics backed by the Speedforce. Flash is the only one who can do it, because he's the only one with both the speedforce powerset, and the ability to ignore/negate/flatout break the laws of physics by virtue of said powerset.

SBP blitzed 3 Flashes, now, whether they were jobbing or not is a matter of opinion. But he is at least near their level in terms of speed. Plus, you know IC had to end with an S-shield finishing the job.

And everyone with a decent knowledge of physics knows the IMP is underpowered for what it is. But I personally believe it's 1. the writers think Flash is overpowered enough, and 2. Flash isn't usually trying to kill people when he uses the IMP.

Plus, he have used it on SBP to no avail.

o-kay, I'm going to reply to the responses made since my last post a little later (too much forumming today ) but I have a couple of questions and observations to put forward.

Qs.
1) does anybody here believe Flash's "Infinite" Mass Punch actually contains infinite mass?

2) can Flash, Surfer, Superman, Thor ... all travel at multiples of C (according to their comics)?

:. will people stop pretending that the IMP one-shots powerful foes?

Obs.
1) Galan my "theory" was not full of holes, on the contrary it is simply a more faithful application of the same theory in which the very concept of "Infinite Mass Punch" is grounded. a theory which transcends comic companies and is valid as long as lightspeed travel and mass are concerned (hence my pointing out that Surfer was reaching out to grab the IG - he had mass, he wasn't some photon lightshow or someother spectral phenomena).

2) the "Infinite Mass" argument is merely an extension of the principle that a rise in momentum increases the force of a blow. Superman flying into space and back to whack somebody or Gladiator flying at a planet to smash it apart etc ... it's meant to convey that basic understanding of physics.

3) therefore you cannot just arbitrarily deny access to such rules of physics to a character merely because another character uses the move as a 'trademark'. any fool with martial arts training, decent balance, two good legs and arms can do a "Bat Kick", any uber-strong behemoth can do a "Thunder Clap" and any FTL character can hit an IMP.

4) infinite/infinity are not actually endless. and most certainly not in comics, thus Hulk <<<<<< Galactus, Galactus <<<<<< LT ... what they tend to mean is just 'unquantifiable*' power, the point about the "IMP"... it clearly is not infinite. strong/uber characters are shown surviving it pretty much unscathed. can we accept that and move beyond the lazy "IMP 4 the win" answers, when pitting together very very very strong characters?


*unquantifiable relative to the observer. computers couldn't store a terabyte 10 years ago, so data mining projects on a national level would have been unimaginable, now they are not, because the tools have improved and the horizons have been pushed back further.