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This is when anakin finds out he is a sith and draws his lightsaber, and instead of siddious making love to his ear with promises of saving padme, siddious draws his lightsaber and they have an all out battle . GO!!!!

Well, Anakin already had his saber like two inches away from Sidious's chest, so if Sidious tried to draw his saber, Anakin would probably have just stabbed him... if Sidious managed to get away from the blade, though, he could probably take Anakin, but I doubt he could beat Anakin in a saber duel, he'd have to use the Force.

Sidious by a long shot. The dark lord bested Yoda, who was more powerful than Anakin at the time.

I thought it was a stalemate with Yoda having the upper hand. Meybe your reffering to Yoda retreating but in the fight when Yoda was about to deflect the lightning Sidious had that "Oh ****" look in his eyes.

But on topic.

If by any means Sidious got far enough to activate his lightsabre it could either way......in a sword fight. If this were in an all out fight Sidious would wtf pwn Anakin.......especially in the senate chamber.

No, it wasn't a stalemate, Sidious simply won the fight. It explain in detail in the RotS novel that Yoda simply couldn't beat him.

Is the novel even canon? But I guess I could say your right because Yoda would not have retreated if he felt he could take him. But it's not like Sidious was on a whole other level than Yoda. Besides IMO Yoda>Sidious in lightsaber combat.

Novel are very much canon and especially novels based on movies.

The reason Yoda retreated was because he knew he would die if he kept fighting Sidious, so he ran knowing that he was no good to anyone dead.

I don't think so. Yoda and Sidious I believe are stated as equals. I don't remember the source, but ask anyone on this forums. They won't disagree.

No they aren't. Its stated that Yoda simply did not have the ability to defeat Sids, and that there was no way he could have won.

I think in pure saber fight(with no talking allowed) Anakin would win, but in this scenario, Sidious can break him mentally, he knows all of his deepest secrets, not to even mention his Force mastery. Anakin goes down.

Like several others have said, I think a lot of this depends on whether or not Sidious has time to make his move. During that scene, Anakin was very close to Sidious. If Sidious attempted to attack, Anakin very well might be able to simply make a small movement and get rid of him right then and there.

Now, if Sidious has time to draw his saber, and it remains nothing but a saber battle, Anakin could probably take it. However, if we bring the Force into this, I'm pretty confident that Anakin will get the crap knocked out of him. He has a lot of raw power, but Sidious has both raw power and a much greater mastery over a far wider range of techniques.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The reason Yoda retreated was because he knew he would die if he kept fighting Sidious, so he ran knowing that he was no good to anyone dead. Die? I think thats overexxagerating it. Sidious was afraid of Yoda, he originaly tried to retreat before the fight started and had that look in his eyes when Yoda was about to reflect the lighting. I also believ Sidious couldn't handle Yoda saber-wise so he switched to his stronger side-The Force. I go with Yoda. But in this fight Sidious wins more times than not.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No they aren't. Its stated that Yoda simply did not have the ability to defeat Sids, and that there was no way he could have won.

Untrue. Yoda had both a limited time and a disadvantage of position the entire fight. He could have killed Sidious, just as Sidious could have killed him. It was merely the surroundings and circumstances of the fight which forced Yoda to retreat.

What do you mean on "surroundings and circumstances", elaborte if you will please.

Untrue. Yoda had both a limited time and a disadvantage of position the entire fight. He could have killed Sidious, just as Sidious could have killed him. It was merely the surroundings and circumstances of the fight which forced Yoda to retreat.

Not according to any source I've seen. It is stated across the board that Yoda had no chance of winning, that he lost the fight before it even began.

How's that if Sidious was in fear for his life "before the fight even began". Besides it can be believed that Yoda was too powerful for Sidious saber-wise which concludes why he resorted pod-chuckling.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Untrue. Yoda had both a limited time and a disadvantage of position the entire fight. He could have killed Sidious, just as Sidious could have killed him. It was merely the surroundings and circumstances of the fight which forced Yoda to retreat.

Not according to any source I've seen. It is stated across the board that Yoda had no chance of winning, that he lost the fight before it even began.

Exactly he was destined to lose-From the ROTS novel-He had lost before he started.

Not what it looked like in the movie.

We don't know what the exact reason he was running for. It could be for his life or it could be he wanted a different field to duel on. And since the quotes don't actually contradict the movie they are canon and yoda had no chance to win.

EDIT: furthermore it would not matter if Sidious was running from Yda because he was destined by the force to win once the duel actually started.

He would have killed Sidious if Yoda had not fallen of the pod.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
He would have killed Sidious if Yoda had not fallen of the pod.

No he wouldn't The force was on Sidious's side no matter what had happened Sidious was destined to win and yoda was destined lose. See my quote from the novel on the last page. And it did not contradict the movie so it is a canon statement.All the quotes are doing it putting words and describing what was happening in the movie. And the canon quotes>your opinion of the duel.

Yoda clearly had the upper hand in the movie. He was just dodging the pods because it was not in his nature to use offensive Force powers. I'm not arguing that Sidious>Yoda in offensive force powers but Yoda had the upper hand.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Yoda clearly had the upper hand in the movie. He was just dodging the pods because it was not in his nature to use offensive Force powers. I'm not arguing that Sidious>Yoda in offensive force powers but Yoda had the upper hand.

Dodging pods does not= the upper hand. In fact because was in a position that he had to dodge the pods in the first place,Sidious was in control of the duel there. Sidious at the point also had the high ground and we see later how important the high ground is.

I was simply reffering to on how we can deduce that Yoda was too much for Sidious in sabers so he switched to the Force, and how Yoda was able to reflect Sidious' lightning. If the fight had continued and neither of them fell Yoda would have won IMO.

I was simply reffering to on how we can deduce that Yoda was too much for Sidious in sabers so he switched to the Force, and how Yoda was able to reflect Sidious' lightning.

How can we deduce that at all? For all you know Sidous resorted to throwing pods because he wanted Yoda dead so much that he began using the force instead of waiting to get back in saber distance.

If the fight had continued and neither of them fell Yoda would have won IMO.

But in reality he was going to lose no matter what.

I only go by what the movies show cause that's the definative GL version.

I only go by what the movies show cause that's the definative GL version.

And the movies show Yoda on the defensive the entire time getting stomped by a laughing, clearly superior Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I only go by what the movies show cause that's the definative GL version.

And you go by your opinion and interpretation of the movies and as I said there is NO contradiction in the ROTS novel because it is describing the fight there is no contradiction in the quotes I have provided you and what we see in the movie.

Stomped? How was Yoda getting stomped, if anything Yoda was winning but fell due to his small size. Yoda was calm but Sidious was scared as ****.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
.Not according to any source I've seen. It is stated across the board that Yoda had no chance of winning, that he lost the fight before it even began.

Well, I would like you to give us a link to the source please, because that seems very unlikely and you won't even bother to build an acceptable arguement.

^ u did read my quote(even though ur not addressing it) from the ROTS novel right it says yoda lost before it even started.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
^ u did read my quote(even though ur not addressing it) from the ROTS novel right it says yoda lost before it even started.

Oh, yes, yes, I will not deny that. I know Yoda lost before it even started, but not because he was inferior, merely because of the circumstances of the match.

Okay. Fine, then I'll ask him to give me the source.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well, Anakin already had his saber like two inches away from Sidious's chest, so if Sidious tried to draw his saber, Anakin would probably have just stabbed him... if Sidious managed to get away from the blade, though, he could probably take Anakin, but I doubt he could beat Anakin in a saber duel, he'd have to use the Force.

But is says in the title of this thread, that Sidious has already drawn his saber.

Okay. Fine, then I'll ask him to give me the source

Did you not see this?

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.Finally, he saw the truth.This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

See the bolded part. Circumstance had nothing to do with it, he lost because he didn't have the power to defeat Sidious.

And that's one writer's opinion.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
And that's one writer's opinion.

And it is being told through from the point of view of the narrator not from a character's view and if GL did not agree with the statement it would not be in the book or could have been deemed by now non canon but since it has not been the statement it canon you can't pick and choose what if the statement is canon and if it isn't from the novel just because it works in your argument. Which is what it sounds like you are doing.

That's one book. the movie is the definative version of Lucas himself. Whether Yoda lost to begin with we don't know, but the movie(something you can visualy witness) shows it a bittt different IMO.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
That's one book. the movie is the definative version of Lucas himself. Whether Yoda lost to begin with we don't know, but the movie(something you can visualy witness) shows it a bittt different IMO.

The movie is the highest form of canon but what you need to understand that the things in the book is canon unless it contradicts the movie. And the statement it says: "he just didn't have it" but that still could mean Yoda could give sidious a really great duel which he did and even come close to killing but the fact would still remain that Yoda lost because the force was on sidious's side and he was destined to lose before the duel started but it does not mean he would get pwned or anything of the sort.

And Obi was meant to beat Maul on Naboo. Maul had Obi beat but Lucas had Obi pull off a dumb miracle so that the saga could continue.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
And Obi was meant to beat Maul on Naboo. Maul had Obi beat but Lucas had Obi pull off a dumb miracle so that the saga could continue.

Pretty much yeah,Maul out dueled him but I guess you could say it was the will of the force that Kenobi beat Maul (who is better than him in every way as of TPM.) In fact in the new jedu vs sith guide book Sidious says he foresaw Maul's death but did not warn him.

Not "will of the force", one word Hollywood! The fact is that Maul had Obi beat, plain and simple. Not dead but beat, if it would have been on even ground he would be dead.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Not "will of the force", one word Hollywood! The fact is that Maul had Obi beat, plain and simple. Not dead but beat, if it would have been on even ground he would be dead.

Will of the force-Hollywood whatever you want to call it. rolleyes1

Whatever I'll debate on this some more tommorow, got to go now. Peace

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Whatever I'll debate on this some more tommorow, got to go now. Peace

What are we debating in here? I though we came to that Sidious had the will of the force on his side just like kenobi did in TPM. Keep in mind that this in-universe not the hollywood explanation. Which is why the good guys always win despite the enemy being stronger. Like Luke and the rebellion defeating Vader/Sidious and the imperial navy respectively.

Anyway later.

Darth Martin, you're being needlessly obtuse and ridiculous. The RotS novelization is G-canon -- on par with both the movies and the script -- unless the book contradicts the movie. The statement, made by the omniscient narrator, does not contradict the movies, screenplay, or George Lucas. At that point in RotS, the dark side had totally overcame the light side -- the revenge of the Sith was literally in play. The book does not say that Yoda was "pwned!1!" or that he was weaker than Palpatine; it simply said that he could not have won at that point. He was destined to lose.

As for who is stronger, it's obvious that neither of them had true superiority over the other. Both of them were equals.

^agreed

Exactly. Even though he was meant to win, Sidious was scared as hell when Yoda came to fight him, that's why he tried to run away: it could go either way. He didn't know if he was going to live or to die. That's why he thought it was better not to risk it. In terms of battle, they ARE EQUALS.

How do you know Sidious was scared as hell to fight Yoda? And what proof do you offer that they are equals?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
How do you know Sidious was scared as hell to fight Yoda? And what proof do you offer that they are equals?

I think i'd start with the fact that he was running away, and the look on Sidious face when Yoda got up after Sids thought his first lightning blast finished him. In combat i'm picking Yoda. No question, every time.

The book says "Yoda found himself alone, against the dark." Yoda got beaten by thousands of years of Sith Lords turning the force against him.

That passage makes that extremely clear. It also makes it clear that all the years of the Jedi order didn't help Yoda at all. Yoda lost against the power of the darkside (and didn't lose by much at that) but as far as losing to sidious because sideous was a better combatant, IS NOT CANON.

Originally posted by truejedi


Um it also says

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Um it also says


I would say, exactly my point. It wasn't just Yoda versus Sidious. It was the light versus the dark. The light was doomed to lose. It didn't mean that Sidious was that much more powerful than Yoda, it just meant that the dark side was destined to triumph in this one.

Originally posted by truejedi
I would say, exactly my point. It wasn't just Yoda versus Sidious. It was the light versus the dark. The light was doomed to lose. It didn't mean that Sidious was that much more powerful than Yoda, it just meant that the dark side was destined to triumph in this one.

I agree with you but your posted sounded more one sided to yoda yet sidious was described to fight the same thing.

i don't really know who would win, Yoda, or Sidious, in another circumstance.
Because Sids ran away at the beginning of their duel, in my opinion, Yoda would take Sidiuos. But i've read the book, and the reason i sounded one-sided earlier is because i was stressing that i disagreed with whoever it was who said a few posts back

that Yoda
"never had it" against Sidous meant Sidious was more dangerous than yoda.

I simply don't interpret it that way, so to claim that according to cannon that Siddious>Yoda is simply not true.

I say there are equal but Sidious was destined to win there and yoda was destined to lose.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
How do you know Sidious was scared as hell to fight Yoda? And what proof do you offer that they are equals?

Palpatine knew the battle could go either way. If he knew he would win, then he would have not tried to run. By trying to run, he tells us he was scared.

Can you blame him? Decades of manipulation and scheming just paid off, and sticking around to duke it out with Yoda would have put the whole thing at needless risk.

That's exactly what I mean. Knowing it was too risky, he tried to run.

Originally posted by Gideon
Can you blame him? Decades of manipulation and scheming just paid off, and sticking around to duke it out with Yoda would have put the whole thing at needless risk.

Brilliant point Gideon.

However, he does tell Yoda he's been looking forward to this. Why does he say that if he's going to run? that never made much sense to me, unless he changed his mind about Yoda after his initial attack failed.



(and why does Yoda just stand there and take it? I mean, he knows enough about the dark side to expect force lightning don't ya think? Sidous puts his hands out, pauses for a second, and THEN hits him with the force.)


And finally, why are we talking about Sidious and Yoda, when this thread is Anakin vs Sidious? Is it cause Anakin couldn't take sidious in a thousand years?

Okay Darth Hord, I now understand your point. Thanks everyone for clearing that up.

Originally posted by truejedi



And finally, why are we talking about Sidious and Yoda, when this thread is Anakin vs Sidious? Is it cause Anakin couldn't take sidious in a thousand years?

he could in Saber combat.

But the whole point is, they both use the force for light saber dueling. Ataru is not about being really athletic, its about using the force, so are you saying if Anakin and Sidious both were cut off from the force completely, that Anakin would win? Or is it just they aren't allowed to use force attacks? I don't think you can discuss saber fighting without the force, they would both be lousy saber duelist if they weren't able to use the force to coordinate their attacks.