The most undeveloped character

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Count Makashi
Who in your opinion is the most undeveloped character in SW Universe, movies and EU or video games. Who has the least characteristic traits, or none, if he has none. Who in your opinion, is so badly written, that he doesn't deserve to be called a character, if there is someone.



For me personally, its Nihilus, he cares nothing about , Jedi or Sith, he just wants to feed on the Force. He is just there and we don't know anything about him, how he feels. or why does he do, what he does

Violent2Dope
Nihilus is my favorite character tho....

Count Makashi
i didn't mean nothing bad, he is very powerful, he can take 99,9% of SW combatants, but just as a character, he has none.

Violent2Dope
I agree he does need a more developed story which should be explained in the comics. Less is known about him than nearly any character.

Captain REX
I find it hard to like characters that have no substance...

Nihilus is definitely very underdeveloped.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Captain REX
I find it hard to like characters that have no substance...

Nihilus is definitely very underdeveloped. But he's uberzor and cool. sad

Blax_Hydralisk
Nah, naruto can beat him.

Most underdeveloped character has to be nevermind..

Darth Hord
I say its Tulak Hord.

0°Mandalore°0
But almost all the Ancient Sith are really undeveloped. I'm going for Nihilus, too.

Darth Hord
But we at least know what they all looked like.

0°Mandalore°0
Yeah, but they're still undeveloped.

GahLakTus
Nihilus and tulak hord. At the least we knew something about marka and ajunta.

Nihilus seriously needs a back story.

SnakeEyes
Like many of you have said, the Ancient Sith are bound to be underdeveloped.

One to add to the list: Darth Plagueis.

GahLakTus
We have never had any idea how he looked like till the essential guide to the force came out. They were suppose to write a novel about him but idk why the hell they cancelled it so drew could write another bane novel and overpower him.

((The_Anomaly))
Yoda is VERY underdeveloped in many respects. But that is intentional by Lucas. I would personally like to know a little more about Yoda.

Violent2Dope
You have a point, but we still know much more about Yoda than Nihilus, we don't even know what he looks like or who or what he is.

Deus Venčficus
Nihilus seems to be the most underdeveloped. A planet eating Sith Lord who speaks in ancient Sith gibberish? WTF man? Who is he? How did he end up like fat kid who eats the force instead of a big Mac? I mean WTF... he's just too random for me... to many unanswered questions.

Violent2Dope
And also, how did he get so big? mmm

truejedi
honestly, there are tons of underdevoloped characters. almost all of them that aren't main characters to be honest. each video game: I mean, whatever happened to Rosh Penin? anybody know that? Where did Darth Sion come from for that matter? Where did darth revan come from in the first place ? prior to KOTOR, we just don't know.

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You have a point, but we still know much more about Yoda than Nihilus, we don't even know what he looks like or who or what he is.

Yea but I really don't give two sh!ts about Nihilus, I think he is a useless cookie cutter character with no real point whatsoever, I'd much rather know about Yoda who is actually important in the overall scheme of things....but to each his own.

Melcórë
Originally posted by truejedi
honestly, there are tons of underdevoloped characters. almost all of them that aren't main characters to be honest. each video game: I mean, whatever happened to Rosh Penin? anybody know that? Where did Darth Sion come from for that matter? Where did darth revan come from in the first place ? prior to KOTOR, we just don't know.

I'm a proponent of the theory that Haazen from the KotOR-comics will end up being "Sion"....and, likewise, Krynda Draay "Kreia"....and, likewise, Lucien Draay "Nihilus." Although I do believe I read somewhere that the intention behind his character was what supposed to be what was left behind after the Exile's detachment from the Force....

I'd REALLY like to know more about the canon-Revan. That's inevitable, though. And also more about a couple of classic characters: Bollux and Leebo, the two greatest 'droids (aside from HK-47) to come out of the EU....

LORD JLRTENJAC
Originally posted by Count Makashi
i didn't mean nothing bad, he is very powerful, he can take 99,9% of SW combatants, but just as a character, he has none.

I'll believe that Nihilus was powerful when I have to actually move to defeat him.

Besides, EVERYONE in that game was under-developed.

123KID
Nihilus was at least vaguely original
a cosmic force
him and Traya and Sion are infinitely prferable over Malak and the Jedi answer to Thrawn...i mean Revan

Tangible God
The Triumvirate members may be a tad more original, but the way they and their story was portrayed fails compared to Revan and Malak's.

Blue_Hefner
Plo Koon

Elite Hunter
Most underdeveloped characters are Tulak Hord,Ajunta Pall,and Darth Plaugueis. Personally I would like to know more about Darth Rivan

Dark-Jaxx
Nihilus.

Darth Exodus
I'd just like to know more about everyone. But pretty much all the KOTOR people and Yoda sound good. You know who else, Sidious. What I want to know is how that guy got so messed up. He's way more psychotic than most other Sith (I actually could be friends with one or two- Bane, Revan, Krayt...) and I want to Know why

Tangible God
Yeah, you'd be their friend... I once considered myself nerdy ya know.


Frankly, I don't want to know Palpatine's back story. The tidbits we get, and his emergence into politics is enough. What's lefty of his mystique would be ruined if we found out say, his first name, or what his parents looked like etc.

xxxpoppunker182
i agree same with yoda i'm glad know one knows what species he is.

Captain REX

123KID
why would this Krynda change her real name ?
these others being Sion and Nihilus makes sense because those are their "Sith names" but Kreia is Traya's real name i thought

0°Mandalore°0
Yes, Nihilus is definitely one of the most undeveloped characters. He may be original and powerful, but he's just... there. Nothing is known about him, not even his name. He's not a Sith, not really. He does not speak basic, you can't even see his face, for god's sake.

exanda kane
He's certainly not original outside of Star Wars, but he is undeveloped for the time being. I thought that was what the silly comics were planning to do though?

The big EH
actually the mask nihilious wears is his face, appaently he fused himself with his suit and became like alphonse for Fullmetal Alchemist, thats what krayt says in legacy anyway

caedusrulesall
Originally posted by The big EH
actually the mask nihilious wears is his face, appaently he fused himself with his suit and became like alphonse for Fullmetal Alchemist, thats what krayt says in legacy anyway

Wait...how can Krayt know that? I thought all the ancient Sith Lords wouldn't give knowledge to Krayt.

And that can't be true, since one of the options after you and Visas kill Nihilus in KOTOR II is to have Visas take his mask then look into his face. She couldn't take his mask if it was his face, could she? Plus in some of the pics you can barely make out the outlines of facial features behind his mask.

Dark-Jaxx
He has a face under the mask, but it is quite possible his biological body is dead, with the mask holding his life force.

Ivalice
Well i liked the idea at first of nihilus mask being revans skull.

Captain REX
That would mean that Revan is done away with, of course. I don't think they'd pull that one...

Caedusrulesall, Krayt used Sith holocrons in one of the first story arcs in an attempt to commune with Sith Lords for advice on how to extend his life due to ancient lore he had known. In Nihilus' case, apparently the Sith Lord preserved his identity by imbuing his armor with his conscience, but he was entirely unhelpful to Krayt because he speaks gibberish.

123KID
Nihilus is like the original Dracula from the book
he didn't hae some huge laid out past but he was there he was intimidating and he was evil
Nihilus got a lot of build-up in the form of "he's a total effin' beast" in KOTOR II but a lot of things about who or what he is personally are left a mystery
it's pretty obvious that they wanted to establish him more as a force than a character and felt that adding in huge loads of details on who he was and what he did and etc. would humanize him and detract from his mythic proportions that they were establishing
i mean even simple things like what he looks like and what he is saying are purposefully kept from being revealed

plus if you want the Exile = Nihilus theory is still valid
got this from another forum

123KID
Anyway, the main gist of my theory on Nihilus' origin goes is based in the idea that the exile is connected to Nihilus and, if my theory is correct, actually IS Nihilus. This all boils do to what exactly happened to the exile during the battle of Malachor V, when he cut his own connection to the force.

As both HK-47 (of all people) and Kreia explain during TSL, Darth Revan used the Mandalorian Wars to subvert the jedi and turn them to the dark side. By doing so he forced a choice, since the final battle was something nobody could walk away from - the jedi could either turn to the dark side or they could die, no exceptions. Save one.

The exile, and the exile alone, avoided both of these options, but only by embracing a third, that is perhaps even more terrible. The exile did not want to die, but he also denied the will of the force, which dictated that he MUST fall to the dark side, if he were to live. But the exile refused that fate so severely, that he cut all his ties to the force and left a wound behind in the the force itself.

Yet as Zez-Kai Ell tells us, such a wound does not simply go away. It remains behind, although it is empty. It is this empty that is Nihilus, IMHO. He is the dark side or dark self of the proto-exile, that the exile rejected at Malachor V. The exile has no force powers of his own - he only has access to the force through his connections with others - because Nihilus IS the very force connection that he rejected so long ago.

Nihilus is both like a rejected splinter of the exile's soul, but it is probably easier to explain it, if we compare him to an arm infected with gangrene. This infection is terminal, and in order save himself from it, the exile cuts off his "arm." In doing so, however, he shed the part of himself that had already fallen to that dark side.

This evil self "survived" by claiming the dead or near-dead body of a fallen jedi and then became Darth Nihilus (a friend or old master of the Exile would make the most sense, since the connection would be stronger). Note how Nihilus and the Exile share the ability to resist the will of the force and gain strength by draining or siphoning it from others, though that ability is said to be unique. By resisting the will of the force, the Exile simply split him/herself in two in spite of the actions that had been taken on Malachor. You might not call the Exile light side (as opposed to Nihilus being obviously dark sided), yet note how the jedi masters say that the Exile was the only jedi to ever return to face their judgment after leaving for the Mandalorian Wars. According to Revan's plans, the Exile should never have been able to do this (as per HK-47's comments about Revan 'cleaning house" on Malachor V), and yet the Exile resisted this fate.

So the Exile is not whole, which explains the wound in the force and the need to rely on force bonds to other in order to gain access to the force. The Exile's fate was to turn to the dark side, and therefore the force powers have remained with the side that became Nihilus.

Now, before you object, there are a few things you should consider, since I based this theory on just on my own wild ideas, but from clues and comments in TSL that seemed unexplained or inconclusive to me. While I like think that I'm not so arrogant as to presume that this is indeed the officially planned origin-story of Nihilus, this means that there are details to support it. These include:

The Exile is specifically connected to Nihilus because he was the only jedi to resist the corruption and perversion of the jedi that Revan staged on Malachor V:

HK-47: "That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army. But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again."

This establishes my point above about how no jedi (but the exile) could escape the choice Revan put before them: Fall to the dark side or die! That the exile did make a third choice makes him unique. No other jedi could avoid this choice, and here is the reason:

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

The last bit here is particularly important, because it underscores the exile's unique situation. Kreia says it even better to the comatose LS exile after the meeting with the masters on Dantooine:

Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

These comments contain some revelation. Clearly the place she talks about is Malachor V, and we learn that only the Exile was able to turn away from it. Kreia has been trying to find out how that was possible, and now has discovered that it was due to fear. That fear fits rather well with the neurosis theory of what happened to separate the Exile and Nihilus - the Exile sensed a darkness within and fled from it by subconsciously cutting himself off from the Force. In that sense, this fear is what gave birth to Nihilus, and as a Yoda would tell us, fear leads to the dark side. Zez-Kai Ell also underscores the importance of force bonds. He is talking about the exile's bond with Kreia, but given that the exile has a connection to Nihilus (and I will establish that below), his comments are just as relevant - if not more so - to the connection with Nihilus.

Zez-Kai Ell: "such bonds are a connection that can be formed at moments of crisis - or in the slow understanding that grows between master and apprentice.It is most common between two beings who are sensitive to the Force. It allows the transmission of feelings, of influence. {Musing}It was something you were gifted with, as I recall, before your fall. You formed such attachments easier than most - even to those who could feel the Force only faintly. {Rueful}Even Vrook could not ignore it, which is saying something. {Frowns}That is most unusual - and unnatural. I have never heard of a bond of such strength. There were a few within the Order who knew more than I did of such bonds - but their students were few, lost in the Mandalorian Wars. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war. I do not know - a bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force.To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound.{Becomes quieter at the end}One of you would have to die, but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound."

Kreia also notes what happened on Malachor V to turn the jedi who fought there to the dark side:

Kreia: "Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade."

In the cut content of KotOR2, jedi master Vash has some comments on force wounds that are extremely interesting in the Exile/Nihilus context:

Vash: "Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it."

This was cut, but it was intended to be in the game.

123KID

Tangible God
Originally posted by 123KID
Nihilus is like the original Dracula from the book
he didn't hae some huge laid out past but he was there he was intimidating and he was evil
Nihilus got a lot of build-up in the form of "he's a total effin' beast" in KOTOR II but a lot of things about who or what he is personally are left a mystery
it's pretty obvious that they wanted to establish him more as a force than a character and felt that adding in huge loads of details on who he was and what he did and etc. would humanize him and detract from his mythic proportions that they were establishing
i mean even simple things like what he looks like and what he is saying are purposefully kept from being revealed Nihilus would've worked as you described it, if it hadn't been for the endless spiel we hear from people like Kreia, Visas and Tobin about how unholy and destructive he is.

Not to mention that the cutscenes where we get to see and "hear" him, kinda ruined his mystique. Once we get a gist of what he does, who he is, and what he looks like, the effect's ruined.

If he had remained more elusive, and let Sion make all the appearances, then he would have been saved, but alas.

I mean imagine it: An unknown villain noone's ever seen traveling around the galaxy causing mayhem, wiping out Jedi, eating worlds etc. Every now and then we hear another mention of him and run into his zombie-fied second in command. The only visual we see of him is when we actually face him. Kinda like Maul.

123KID
you have a point
but it all comes down to preference
i liked how he was done but i don't think it was perfect and the way you describe it would've been better

ThoraxeRMG
Revan, Tulak Hord, Darth Nihilus, and Ajunta Pall

Elite Hunter
Darth Rivan

Darth Exodus
Good one.

LORD JLRTENJAC
Originally posted by Captain REX
I don't think Lucien will end up being Nihilus, but I agree about Haazen being Sion and Krynda being Kreia.

Revan is completely underdeveloped because all that defines him so far are player choices in KOTOR and whatever the official 'this is what happened' story is.

Read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

Originally posted by 123KID
Nihilus is like the original Dracula from the book
he didn't hae some huge laid out past but he was there he was intimidating and he was evil
Nihilus got a lot of build-up in the form of "he's a total effin' beast" in KOTOR II but a lot of things about who or what he is personally are left a mystery
it's pretty obvious that they wanted to establish him more as a force than a character and felt that adding in huge loads of details on who he was and what he did and etc. would humanize him and detract from his mythic proportions that they were establishing
i mean even simple things like what he looks like and what he is saying are purposefully kept from being revealed

plus if you want the Exile = Nihilus theory is still valid
got this from another forum

However, the only back story is that he was part of the triumvirate, and where he gor the ravager. That's not quite enough to make a compelling characrer. Especially a character that doesn't require you to move to kill.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Nihilus would've worked as you described it, if it hadn't been for the endless spiel we hear from people like Kreia, Visas and Tobin about how unholy and destructive he is.

Not to mention that the cutscenes where we get to see and "hear" him, kinda ruined his mystique. Once we get a gist of what he does, who he is, and what he looks like, the effect's ruined.

If he had remained more elusive, and let Sion make all the appearances, then he would have been saved, but alas.

I mean imagine it: An unknown villain noone's ever seen traveling around the galaxy causing mayhem, wiping out Jedi, eating worlds etc. Every now and then we hear another mention of him and run into his zombie-fied second in command. The only visual we see of him is when we actually face him. Kinda like Maul.

Understandable, but to do that they shouldn't have made him the poster-boy for that to work, but alas, he and Atris were the poster-characters. Which brings me to another under-developed character: Atris.

LORD JLRTENJAC
Originally posted by Captain REX
Revan is completely underdeveloped because all that defines him so far are player choices in KOTOR and whatever the official 'this is what happened' story is.

YOu also have to understand that they couldn't let too mutch about Revan slip or let the player know that the main character is revan. Even at that though, revan's past was developed pretty well through KOTOR, keeping in mind that not too much could be told.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.