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Do non-combat strength feats such as lifting or punching something really matter when it comes to fights ?

I'll use the Hulk as my primary example.

He has some impressive strength feats, but do these really matter when punching someone when say compared to a character with superior speed ?

I'll use Superman as an example also, although I don't think Hulk is stronger than him.

This is hypoteticall.

Say Hulk is stronger than Superman, but do their punches have the same efficiency ? No. Because a punch from Superman at really high speeds does a lot more damage than a punch from Hulk.

So why aren't people really considering all the variables when it comes to this sort of things ? Because I see on numerous threads involving for example WWH as the fact that Hulk is "so much stronger than character X" that he should win .

Brute strength does matter when throwing a punch, but it is only one of several factors including body mass, speed, and technique.

Ever notice how professional boxers (since we're speaking strictly of punching here) have highly developed, though not normally well-toned, muscles in their arms and torsos but skinny legs?

That's because for most boxers, and you see this in the heavier weight classes more than at the lighter weights, strength and muscle mass are as important to the force of their punches as the speed and manner in which the punch is thrown. Lighter boxers may punch faster, but do not necessarily hit as hard because they lack the extra mass and strength of a heavier boxer.

Now, this isn't always the case, but it illustrates a reasonable answer to the question here.

Hypothetically, assuming that Hulk is stronger than Superman to some degree, their punches should be more or less equal in force. Though Hulk in this example has the advantage of greater strength and mass behind his punches, Superman can punch faster and with better technique, making up for what he would hypothetically lack in strength.

The final factor is the psychological one. Hulk, on one hand, is rage-fueled and not likely to pull his punches, whereas Superman is generally held in check by his rational mind and might tend to not hit people with the full force of his punches most of the time.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr


This is hypoteticall.

Say Hulk is stronger than Superman, but do their punches have the same efficiency ? No. Because a punch from Superman at really high speeds does a lot more damage than a punch from Hulk.

So why aren't people really considering all the variables when it comes to this sort of things ? Because I see on numerous threads involving for example WWH as the fact that Hulk is "so much stronger than character X" that he should win .

Hmm yeah logically Supermans punch should do more damage. I guess theres several ways of looking at it.

1. Yeah it should be more powerful but sometimes **** just doesnt work like that I think Glads used a speeblitz punch on Thor but it didnt seem to have more affect than a regular punch.

2. Even if his punches are alot more powerful. Hulks showings indicate he can take the damage.

3. Hulk has some speed feats that indicate he could counter speed blitzing.

I'm not talking about speed blitzing or anything like that.

I'm talking strictly about non-combat strength feats and their relevance when comparing 2 oponnents with vastly different speed.

Tehnically, even if Hulk can lift many times more than character yet that character punches at aproximatley or beyond the speed of light, those punches should make much, much more damage and be a lot more efficient when it comes to fighting.

Take Zoom for example :

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9098/z14dz0.th.jpg

Just the fact that he is that fast makes his punches be compared to those of Superman.

Lifting strength doesn't equal a force of hits, what's more- big biceps of a weightlifter actually slow down his hits. Force of hits consists of many aspects one of which is strength, but boxers don't develop exactly the same groups of muscles as weightlifters\bodybuilders. In fact, if you're strong but slow as slug, your force of hits isn't equal to that of one who is strong\fast\knows how to use it when fighting, not just lifting stuff.
That's just IMHO, of course.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Lifting strength doesn't equal a force of hits, what's more- big biceps of a weightlifter actually slow down his hits. Force of hits consists of many aspects one of which is strength, but boxers don't develop exactly the same groups of muscles as weightlifters\bodybuilders. In fact, if you're strong but slow as slug, your force of hits isn't equal to that of one who is strong\fast\knows how to use it when fighting, not just lifting stuff.
That's just IMHO, of course.

But strength and muscle mass ARE factors in punching force...they just may not necessarily be the dominant factors...

Originally posted by shksprtx
But strength and muscle mass ARE factors in punching force...they just may not necessarily be the dominant factors...

I wasn't saying they're non-factors, just that they're not the only factors in the force of hits.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm not talking about speed blitzing or anything like that.

I'm talking strictly about non-combat strength feats and their relevance when comparing 2 oponnents with vastly different speed.

Tehnically, even if Hulk can lift many times more than character yet that character punches at aproximatley or beyond the speed of light, those punches should make much, much more damage and be a lot more efficient when it comes to fighting.

Take Zoom for example :

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9098/z14dz0.th.jpg

Just the fact that he is that fast makes his punches be compared to those of Superman.

Right so your saying that if Superman punched at speed they should be loads of times more powerful than Hulks punches? IF Zoom has normal strength and his speed can be compared to Supermans then Superman punching at speed would be even more powerful.

This is an argument I've carried on for years about Superman, and how so many others powerhouses - who've never help to lift or tow something planet-sized, or something else huge - can stand toe-to-toe with him. I've said he's using a different power, lifting something huge while flying, so those aren't really strength feats.
Hulk's a different example though, because he's supposed to get tougher and stronger the more he gets hit due to rage.

I don't think muscle force is such a deciding factor when characters punch at light-speed, speedsters like the Flash and Zoom are easily capable of surpassing powerhouses like the Hulk, Hercules and The Thing.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right so your saying that if Superman punched at speed they should be loads of times more powerful than Hulks punches?

It's not about the god damned Hulk, what is wrong with you?

Originally posted by llagrok
It's not about the god damned Hulk, what is wrong with you?



Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Do non-combat strength feats such as lifting or punching something really matter when it comes to fights ?

I'll use the Hulk as my primary example.

He has some impressive strength feats, but do these really matter when punching someone when say compared to a character with superior speed ?

I'll use Superman as an example also, although I don't think Hulk is stronger than him.

This is hypoteticall.

Say Hulk is stronger than Superman, but do their punches have the same efficiency ? No. Because a punch from Superman at really high speeds does a lot more damage than a punch from Hulk.

So why aren't people really considering all the variables when it comes to this sort of things ? Because I see on numerous threads involving for example WWH as the fact that Hulk is "so much stronger than character X" that he should win .

The entire point of this thread is that a class 100 brick who lacks speed shouldn't hit nearly has hard as a brick who can throw haymakers at the speed of light, even if he happens to be stronger. Hulk is the quintessential "slow" brick, and Superman is the quintessential "fast" brick, so yes, this thread is very much about the Hulk... I mean, you may have noticed how many times he was mentioned in the original post?

llgarok is basically just an annoying troll....anyway you should go to the WM vs Wolverine thread and see what I said about you there. ......then again maybe not.

Originally posted by Alfheim
llgarok is basically just an annoying troll....anyway you should go to the WM vs Wolverine thread and see what I said about you there. ......then again maybe not.

Maybe later, I have big Illustration project due tomorrow that I haven't started and should be working on right now. I don't need any more distractions.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Maybe later, I have big Illustration project due tomorrow that I haven't started and should be working on right now.

You wont like it though the Wolverine hate got me and I bit your head off. Its not me blame the wolverine hate.

supermans stronger

but anyway speed is the most effective thing in brawls I say

Force=Mass*Acceleration

Some characters have a greater acceleration, others a greater mass to their hits.

Lifting feats help to show some of the potential of the M side of the factor while speed feats might help to show the A side of the factor.

5=1*5
5=5*1

Originally posted by llagrok
It's not about the god damned Hulk, what is wrong with you? He seems to have trouble dealing with hypotheticals when it involves a character he's a fanboy of. Don't worry about him he's just an annoying troll.

Knowlage is the best weapon.

non combat strength such as lifting does not coudnt as fighting ... as low levelers are able to hag with popel way out of thier league

think about this ... an enraged hulk/savage hulk shoud make thing go yellow rock splat in a puch as he can lift 1000's of tons where thing cant even compare ... daredeviil cant even lift half a ton but does not get a ko form a puch from spidey and can last the half teh issue fighteing peter , kingpin can stand up to spidey and give spidey a run for his money he cant even lift half a ton!

TOO MANY DAMN PLOT DEVICES got charecters with superstrength looking like have supersissy strength and can be matched by any tom/dick or harry!

Originally posted by ankur29
non combat strength such as lifting does not coudnt as fighting ... as low levelers are able to hag with popel way out of thier league

think about this ... an enraged hulk/savage hulk shoud make thing go yellow rock splat in a puch as he can lift 1000's of tons where thing cant even compare ... daredeviil cant even lift half a ton but does not get a ko form a puch from spidey and can last the half teh issue fighteing peter , kingpin can stand up to spidey and give spidey a run for his money he cant even lift half a ton!

TOO MANY DAMN PLOT DEVICES got charecters with superstrength looking like have supersissy strength and can be matched by any tom/dick or harry! More factors you're not accounting for like spidey holding back because he doesn't kill, and factoring in the durability of the other person...

Originally posted by Creshosk
Force=Mass*Acceleration

Some characters have a greater acceleration, others a greater mass to their hits.

Lifting feats help to show some of the potential of the M side of the factor while speed feats might help to show the A side of the factor.

5=1*5
5=5*1


Exactly the point I was trying to make in my original post, only all mathematical and stuff...

Wish I had taken physics back in high school and college...

There are many factors as mentioned that come into play but just talking about the sheer force you take a 2 ton truck going 100 mph and a baseball, that ball would have to travel at 400,000 mph to have the same force on impact. Then you would need to look at how the force is applied to the body, the ball would have a limited area of impact and more than likely just penetrate the body doing less overall damage where as the truck would spread the force over a larger area.

The faster it goes means the higher impact.

Originally posted by Nod
The faster it goes means the higher impact. Only if the size and mass is the same.

Not necessarily in comics.

Flash.

Originally posted by Nod
Not necessarily in comics.

Flash. Well this was phrased more as a physics question; Flash breaks are the rules with the dumb Speed Force. In theory to do the Infinite Mass Punch, he would also need Infinite Strength as well to move it.

Some things in comics make sense when it comes to science.

Some don't.

Originally posted by Nod
Some things in comics make sense when it comes to science.

Some don't. What are you even getting at?

That some things in comics should be discussed and some shouldn't. Just like with science.

Simple enough.

Originally posted by Nod
That some things in comics should be discussed and some shouldn't. Just like with science.

Simple enough. And who's to decide what's to be discussed you?

I'm sorry but that's BS.

Originally posted by Nod
Just like with science. People discuss virtually all aspects of science...

Originally posted by Nod
Not necessarily in comics.

Flash. durwave

Originally posted by Badabing
durwave
ur good..

Originally posted by Nod
That some things in comics should be discussed and some shouldn't. Just like with science.

Simple enough.

That doesn't make sense at all.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And who's to decide what's to be discussed you?

I'm sorry but that's BS.

Why are you taking offense to this?

Originally posted by Creshosk


He seems to have trouble dealing with hypotheticals when it involves a character he's a fanboy of. Don't worry about him he's just an annoying troll.

What you want more after the Superman and WWH thread??????

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


The entire point of this thread is that a class 100 brick who lacks speed shouldn't hit nearly has hard as a brick who can throw haymakers at the speed of light, even if he happens to be stronger. Hulk is the quintessential "slow" brick, and Superman is the quintessential "fast" brick, so yes, this thread is very much about the Hulk... I mean, you may have noticed how many times he was mentioned in the original post?

Correct? Which is the point I was trying to make.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right so your saying that if Superman punched at speed they should be loads of times more powerful than Hulks punches? IF Zoom has normal strength and his speed can be compared to Supermans then Superman punching at speed would be even more powerful.

What?

Originally posted by Alfheim
What? I have no idea where this thread is going

Right ok.....possibly going to degenerate into name calling.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Right ok.....possibly going to degenerate into name calling.

Poop head.





































J/K, This thread is lame.

Originally posted by endrict
Poop head.










J/K, This thread is lame.

NO U R LAM!!!!


(it's so simple an idiot could have thought of it)

For anybody interested in spending a couple hours, check out google video for a series called "fight science".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8149847751338552772

It's interesting to show how they actual measure the impact damage of various styles of fighting.

In regards to how this would play out in an actual fight, the different powers of the characters in question would come into play as far as how the impact from a punch or otherwise would actually do damage.

For example, with characters such as Superman, Gladiator, and Hyperion, when they move a huge object such as a planet, part of their powers effectively nullify the object's weight but not necessarily mass. Meaning that because of this gravity nullification, it would allow them to lift or move a massive object that would be beyond their normal means of strength to move. Superman seems to have multiple abilities, working in conjunction, that allow him to perform both close range very powerful attacks / defense (bio-field) as well as object weight nullification (which allows movement of huge / heavy objects, such as planets, etc.), this effect is sometimes referred to as "tacticle telekinesis".

So in a fist fight, nullifying the weight of a huge object might not really play into effect of how hard the punch hits. His bio-field, however, would influence the damage of the punch. This is why when Superman punches someone, it wouldn't necessarily strike with the same force that would be required to move a planet, instead only being determined by the mass of his arm and relativistic effects of moving close to light speed for the actual punch (simulating a greater mass).

Originally posted by SaintSmurph
People discuss virtually all aspects of science...

And virtually all aspects of science make sense.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What you want more after the Superman and WWH thread??????


Where Cresh assuredly owned the shit out of you, I assume?

Why would he be 'afraid' of more?

Lastly; to the few people referring to Superman's 'tactile telekinesis,' I believe that has never actually been brought into canon. But, rather, it was a plausible explanation given by fans or writers who said, merely, that Superman extends his biofield to make sure the object doesn't collapse on itself, rather than nullify any amount of it's weight.

Originally posted by Soljer
Lastly; to the few people referring to Superman's 'tactile telekinesis,' I believe that has never actually been brought into canon. But, rather, it was a plausible explanation given by fans or writers who said, merely, that Superman extends his biofield to make sure the object doesn't collapse on itself, rather than nullify any amount of it's weight.

I thought it was canon since Superboy (Kon-El) had it, being a clone of Superman. So by extension it was implied that Superman himself had it.

I guess that's only implied though, I'll have to dig around for on-panel statements.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What you want more after the Superman and WWH thread?????? Sure, I'd love to have another reason to report you again. Enough times and you'll be warned for bashing, keep that up and you'll be banned. It's a win-win situation. You get banned, and KMC doesn't have to deal with you anymore. What could be better than getting rid of a troll like you?

Originally posted by Soljer
And virtually all aspects of science make sense. Which provides further reasoning for why "just like with science" is an inept comparison...

Originally posted by Soljer

Where Cresh assuredly owned the shit out of you, I assume?



Yes thats exactly what happened. Please forgive me, im trying to be more like you....I dunno I just keep messing up....dont give up on me yet.

please

This is the same as throwing a heavy ass rock into someones face, or shooting a light ass bullet out of a gun...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes thats exactly what happened. Please forgive me, im trying to be more like you....I dunno I just keep messing up....dont give up on me yet.

please

Come now, see it from my point of view; how many times can I watch you fail before I just give up? At this point you seem more like a deaf, dumb, blind, and lame dog just begging to be put down. Who am I to refuse?