Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

or is it just a national holiday ?

Christmas?

So, all you Muslims, is that Hajj you just taking a nice family vacation?

Of course; I'm Mexican.

Sure, I can celebrate any holiday I want, and I do most I know about.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sure, I can celebrate any holiday I want, and I do most I know about.

Rosh Hashanah? Kwanzaa? Eid al Fitr?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Rosh Hashanah? Kwanzaa? Eid al Fitr?

Those are some of the ones I know very little about. If there is heavy drinking involved in any of them, then let me know.

Well you won't find too much drinking in Eid al Fitr.

see, this bugs me. Atheists celebrating christmas, ANYONE who doesnt believe in christ celebrating christmas. Its the birthday of christ, and IMO, only his followers should celebrate it.

For me no, it is a time to spend with family and friends, spend lots of money on gifts and kill a tree. Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see, this bugs me. Atheists celebrating christmas, ANYONE who doesnt believe in christ celebrating christmas. Its the birthday of christ, and IMO, only his followers should celebrate it. In the true meaning of Christmas I would agree with you but Christmas is no longer just the celebration of the birth.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see, this bugs me. Atheists celebrating christmas, ANYONE who doesnt believe in christ celebrating christmas. Its the birthday of christ, and IMO, only his followers should celebrate it.

But in the US its so commercialized that Atheists and people of all religions celebrate it. It's become more of an American holiday than a Christian one.

One of my employees is a Hindu and his entire frontyard is covered with lights and even an anamatronic, singing Frosty the Snowman. He definitely went all out.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
For me no, it is a time to spend with family and friends, spend lots of money on gifts and kill a tree.

See what I mean...

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see, this bugs me. Atheists celebrating christmas, ANYONE who doesnt believe in christ celebrating christmas. Its the birthday of christ, and IMO, only his followers should celebrate it. Nah, it's just a celebration of the birth of some fictional character named Christ that if he was born at all wasn't born on "Christmas" and certainly not the way it is told. For us intelligent people it is just a nice Wintercelebration where we can meet the family and be happy.

Yep, most scholars say he was born around January 7th.

I'm still trying to figure out the whole 12 days of Christmas thing

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
But in the US its so commercialized that Atheists and people of all religions celebrate it. It's become more of an American holiday than a Christian one.

One of my employees is a Hindu and his entire frontyard is covered with lights and even an anamatronic, singing Frosty the Snowman. He definitely went all out.



See what I mean...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
For me no, it is a time to spend with family and friends, spend lots of money on gifts and kill a tree. In the true meaning of Christmas I would agree with you but Christmas is no longer just the celebration of the birth. my point exactly, it has lost its true meaning. people use it now as an excuse to get off of work and buy presents for one another. what are they really celebrating?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see, this bugs me. Atheists celebrating christmas, ANYONE who doesnt believe in christ celebrating christmas. Its the birthday of christ, and IMO, only his followers should celebrate it.

I actually agree with this

I'd love it if there were an opt out option for celebrating christmas, but given the whole family thing, it really isn't a choice. I HAVE to celebrate christmas against my will.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That, and it's just another excuse for a day-off. But where St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo are alcohol-centric, Thanksgiving and Xmas are family-centric. cheers

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, it's just a celebration of the birth of some fictional character named Christ that if he was born at all wasn't born on "Christmas" and certainly not the way it is told. For us intelligent people it is just a nice Wintercelebration where we can meet the family and be happy. so people who believe in christ are now classified as non intelligent? It's hypocrisy, celebrating a holiday that they have no belief in.

Lemme ask you this, is there a national holiday for muslims comparable to christmas?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
what are they really celebrating?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
cheers

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
my point exactly, it has lost its true meaning. people use it now as an excuse to get off of work and buy presents for one another. what are they really celebrating?

However, Dec. 25th was a Pagan holiday long before the Christians picked that date for Christmas.

Originally posted by inimalist
I actually agree with this

I'd love it if there were an opt out option for celebrating christmas, but given the whole family thing, it really isn't a choice. I HAVE to celebrate christmas against my will. um.....no, no you dont.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so people who believe in christ are now classified as non intelligent? It's hypocrisy, celebrating a holiday that they have no belief in.

Lemme ask you this, is there a national holiday for muslims comparable to christmas?

National? No. The biggest Muslim holiday is Eid al Fitr.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so people who believe in christ are now classified as non intelligent? It's hypocrisy, celebrating a holiday that they have no belief in.

Lemme ask you this, is there a national holiday for muslims comparable to christmas? How is that hypocritical. Do you even know what that word means? And what do you mean "now", they were always classified as delusional, the smart one realize that Christmas is way more than their little cult ritual though.


And, yeah, it's Christmas.

Even the concept of the Christmas tree comes from paganism.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
um.....no, no you dont.

ummmm, ya, actually I do

that or tell my entire Christian family to stuff it on the single most important day they have... (yes, this is a personal not a sociological thing)

so maybe not HAVE to, but extremely obligated and guilted? absolutely.

Maybe to some of you Christmas is just a friendly gift giving family time, but lets not be so cynical, there are those who still celebrate the "true" meaning of christmas

Originally posted by inimalist
that or tell my entire Christian family to stuff it on the single most important day they have... (yes, this is a personal not a sociological thing)


So I'm guessing you actually get along with your in-laws?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How is that hypocritical. Do you even know what that word means? And what do you mean "now", they were always classified as delusional, the smart one realize that Christmas is way more than their little cult ritual though.


And, yeah, it's Christmas. yes, basically it means one is a poser.

so you are of the opinion that christians cannot prove God's existence, so he doesnt exist, that there is no hard core evidence that he is in fact our savior, yes?

wait, muslims believe in Jesus Christ?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, basically it means one is a poser.

so you are of the opinion that christians cannot prove God's existence, so he doesnt exist, that there is no hard core evidence that he is in fact our savior, yes?

wait, muslims believe in Jesus Christ?
Not quite.

I am not of the opinion that he doesn't exist. But, yeah, there is no evidence that your saviour exists. There's not even conclusive evidence, that the guy you think is your saviour exists.

Well, yeah, they do, but that's not the point, as many, many other people that celebrate Christmas don't. You don't have to believe in Jesus Christ to celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Nutcase. pitt_fist

Although Christmas has traditionally been a Christian holiday, most elements of modern Christmas celebrations are really pagan.

There' s nothing inherently religious, much less Christian, about decorations, lights, Christmas trees, giving gifts, family gatherings, holiday meals and foods, etc.

It's just a reason to have a vacation.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not quite. then share with us your definition of the word.

but you referred to yourself as belonging to a group of "intelligent" people, ones who do not believe in him. what makes your group intelligent, more intelligent than christians?

before we go any further with this, I want to make it clear that I am asking because I really dont know what muslims believe in, I dont claim to be an expert on the subject.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

but you referred to yourself as belonging to a group of "intelligent" people, ones who do not believe in him. what makes your group intelligent, more intelligent than christians?


If you haven't noticed, Atheists think they're automatically smarter than religous people because they don't believe in what they consider a fairytale.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
then share with us your definition of the word.


It's not just pretending to be something, it is Saying you believe something and actually doing the opposite.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
but you referred to yourself as belonging to a group of "intelligent" people, ones who do not believe in him. what makes your group intelligent, more intelligent than christians?


If you read again you will see that is not what I said.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
before we go any further with this, I want to make it clear that I am asking because I really dont know what muslims believe in, I dont claim to be an expert on the subject.

Yeah, but your question is flawed. Since Christmas, is for muslims, just as it is for atheists and as it is for Christians.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
If you haven't noticed, Atheists think they're automatically smarter than religous people because they don't believe in what they consider a fairytale.

careful

its hard to effectively point out gross generalizations while making a gross generalization

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
If you haven't noticed, Atheists think they're automatically smarter than religous people because they don't believe in what they consider a fairytale. I am sure there are many atheists like that, but first of all I am not an atheist and second don't judge by those parameters. I find your believes unfounded and likely wrong and might try to convince you of a more agnostic approach and I am against Religious violence, but I would never truly think that a person is just stupid for having a Religious belief, though, in my experience a large amount of Religious people is actually stupid, there's no rule whatsoever for that.

Originally posted by inimalist
careful

its hard to effectively point out gross generalizations while making a gross generalization

It is a gross-generalization, but's its applicable enough that it isn't a far-fetched claim.

I'm sure Gandhi is/was smarter than many Atheists.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
If you haven't noticed, Atheists think they're automatically smarter than religous people because they don't believe in what they consider a fairytale. As the same with the flip side

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It is a gross-generalization, but's its applicable enough that it isn't a far-fetched claim.

I'm sure Gandhi is/was smarter than many Atheists.

lol, we could easily do a tally and would clearly find more intelligent people that are religious than not. I wouldn't even claim that atheists are per capita more intelligent.

I'd say the generalization that religious people suffer from delusional beliefs is just as far-fetched as the atheists are arrogant generalization. I'd actually say they are both somewhat true

Originally posted by Da Pittman
As the same with the flip side

Not really. A lot of religous people may think they have existance figured out and that they're morally superior, but they don't believe that Athiests are mentally deficient because they don't believe in God.

No.

Christmas has transcended its original religious roots and become something more. It is also a celebration of loved ones, a time to spend with them and enjoy their company, which is why I celebrate it.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Not really. A lot of religous people may think they have existance figured out and that they're morally superior, but they don't believe that Athiests are mentally deficient because they don't believe in God. Not really, many of the talks that I've had about religion, some think that our belief in no god is just as dumb as some believe in a god is dumb. Many of the atheist that I know do not hold the idea that they are "smarter" because they don't believe, just not misguided which is a big difference.

But this is off the topic
Originally posted by BackFire
No.

Christmas has transcended its original religious roots and become something more. It is also a celebration of loved ones, a time to spend with them and enjoy their company, which is why I celebrate it.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
If you haven't noticed, Atheists think they're automatically smarter than religous people because they don't believe in what they consider a fairytale.

Didn't we just have this argument? Though I seem to you remember dropping off at some point, leaving my last couple posts unanswered.

So since logic didn't work last time, I'll just state the obvious...this time with no intention of helping you change your mind, just letting you know what I think.

You're nothing but a religious bigot for spreading such generalized bullsh*t, and preaching it like it's God's truth.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Didn't we just have this argument? Though I seem to you remember dropping off at some point, leaving my last couple posts unanswered.

So since logic didn't work last time, I'll just state the obvious...this time with no intention of helping you change your mind, just letting you know what I think.

You're nothing but a religious bigot for spreading such generalized bullsh*t.

You didn't ask any questions in your last posts. And I never said that all Atheists thought that.

Who do you think I am bigoted against?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
You didn't ask any questions in your last posts. And I never said that all Atheists thought that.

Who do you think I am bigoted against?

Atheists. Quite clearly. You always preface your statements with something like "well not all of them..." then continue to spout the same unsupported tripe that labels them as elitist assh*les who consider all theists inferior.

It was, and still is, insulting to large groups of people that you quite clearly know nothing about.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Atheists. Quite clearly. You always preface your statements with something like "well not all of them..." then continue to spout the same unsupported tripe that labels them as elitist assh*les who consider all theists inferior.

It was, and still is, insulting to large groups of people that you quite clearly know nothing about.

I don't dislike Athiests. One of my sons is an Atheist, big deal. It's his life and that's his belief. My only complaint against them is that they arbitrarily make up their own morals.

See, now you're assuming that I know nothing about them, despite having known many in my life and reading many pro-Atheism books and articles.

atheists think that christians are stupid, christians think that atheists are stupid, muslims believe that all non muslims are infidels.....this argument will never be won by any of them.

I think everyone is stupid.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I don't dislike Athiests. One of my sons is an Atheist, big deal. It's his life and that's his belief. My only complaint against them is that they arbitrarily make up their own morals.

See, now you're assuming that I know nothing about them, despite having known many in my life and reading many pro-Atheism books and articles.

Well, you base your morals on someone that lived 2000 years ago and based his teaching on something even 2000 years older, condemning murder in some passages. Not sure what's your problem with choosing them on individual basis or rational thought.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I don't dislike Athiests. One of my sons is an Atheist, big deal. It's his life and that's his belief. My only complaint against them is that they arbitrarily make up their own morals.

See, now you're assuming that I know nothing about them, despite having know many in my life and reading many pro-Atheism books and articles.

I didn't say you disliked them. We've had this conversation before, and you again mentioned your son.

But your comments are, in fact, bigoted against atheists whether you want to admit it or not. And you have yet to offer anything in support of such widespread generalizations other than 1-2 people you know or saw on the internet, and the intuitive "well doesn't it seem like a lot of them are like that...?" style of arguments.

If I have a friend who is black, then talk about some racial stereotype of blacks like it's unwavering truth about the general populace of balck people, I'm racist. And I think I used this same example (and these same arguments) last time we talked. So you either aren't reading, aren't remembering, or can't comprehend your own bias.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
atheists think that christians are stupid, christians think that atheists are stupid, muslims believe that all non muslims are infidels.....this argument will never be won by any of them.

Again a generalization. It's not a bttle to be "won", nor do I think anyone is stupid because of religious beliefs. If people are stupid, it's because they're stupid...not because of a particular denomination they belong to.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
atheists think that christians are stupid, christians think that atheists are stupid, muslims believe that all non muslims are infidels.....this argument will never be won by any of them. Because they are all wrong. Just that you wrongly generalized three groups of people now. One thing all those can agree on though is that you are stupid. A giant victory for mankind.

Originally posted by BackFire
I think everyone is stupid. I r not stUiPd

I actually agree with Quiero Mota's statement. A whole bunch, likely the majority, at least the majority the voices their opinions loudly and obnoxiously are in my experience convinced that religious people are less intelligent for being religious.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I didn't say you disliked them. We've had this conversation before, and you again mentioned your son.

But your comments are, in fact, bigoted against atheists whether you want to admit it or not. And you have yet to offer anything in support of such widespread generalizations other than 1-2 people you know or saw on the internet, and the intuitive "well doesn't it seem like a lot of them are like that...?" style of arguments.

If I have a friend who is black, then talk about some racial stereotype of blacks like it's unwavering truth about the general populace of balck people, I'm racist. And I think I used this same example (and these same arguments) last time we talked. So you either aren't reading, aren't remembering, or can't comprehend your own bias.

Do you honestly believe that Atheists who look down on religous people for being mentally lacking are a minority among Atheists? Be real.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I actually agree with Quiero Mota's statement. A whole bunch, likely the majority, at least the majority the voices their opinions loudly and obnoxiously are in my experience convinced that religious people are less intelligent for being religious.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Because they are all wrong. Just that you wrongly generalized three groups of people now. One thing all those can agree on though is that you are stupid. A giant victory for mankind. yes, I am sure that you speak for everyone in said groups. I am sure they are all a bunch of chest thumping neanderthals as you are.

Let's all be nice, guys.

After all, tis the season.

(Bardock loves baby dick).

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Do you honestly believe that Atheists who look down on religous people for being mentally lacking are a minority among Atheists? Be real.

Yes.

And I've answered this question from you before, which confirms one of my three theories posted above.

If I look down on someone intellectually, it's because they're legitimately stupid. Not because of their belief system.

Look at it this way: If an atheist thinks a person is dumb for believing in a religion, chances are it's because they're doing so on childhood upbringing, fuzzy logic, and faith. They aren't critiquing the religion per say, but the person's inability to rationalize it. And you could sub out "atheist" in that example and just use any rational, intelligent human being of any belief system....it's pretty universal, and doesn't apply to any one group (as you seem to believe).

Brilliant people can belong to any denomination (and DO belong to pretty much every denomination). So can dumb people.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, I am sure that you speak for everyone in said groups. I am sure they are all a bunch of chest thumping neanderthals as you are. Faulty assumption again. You just get them out there, don't you?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Faulty assumption again. You just get them out there, don't you? only as well as you lay the foundation for them.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
only as well as you lay the foundation for them. You base your opinion of a person on whether they are nice to you or not in a particular moment, once I don't oppose your views or agree with you I am suddenly a cool dude again. It is ridiculous, so could we keep that out and concentrate on Christmas, I realize it was my fault, by calling you an idiot, but at least I stay by that every day.

Originally posted by BackFire
I think everyone is stupid.

And you would.

I don't have christmas.... i treat it as a hypocritical christian attempt to subvert our old religion... and a capitalist cash cow... religion and guilt go hand in hand to raise money for the rich.. but if you want to buy me presents I won't insult your generosity...

Originally posted by Bardock42
You base your opinion of a person on whether they are nice to you or not in a particular moment, once I don't oppose your views or agree with you I am suddenly a cool dude again. It is ridiculous, so could we keep that out and concentrate on Christmas, I realize it was my fault, by calling you an idiot, but at least I stay by that every day. my opinion of you has no bearing here. I know for a fact you are a cool dude, no matter what is said here. you are a cool dude and an ***hole, deal with it.

He's actually not cool.

Originally posted by BackFire
He's actually not cool. I ****ed your mother and your dad was watching.


Good that is off my chest now, would have been much worse if I had thought you like me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I ****ed your mother and your dad was watching.


Good that is off my chest now, would have been much worse if I had thought you like me. chili dogged her?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Do you honestly believe that Atheists who look down on religous people for being mentally lacking are a minority among Atheists? Be real. I didn't know you know over 500,000 + atheists

Originally posted by Bardock42
I ****ed your mother and your dad was watching.


Good that is off my chest now, would have been much worse if I had thought you like me.

I don't believe you can penetrate my mother with your clit.

See, totally not cool, this guy.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I didn't know you know over 500,000 + atheists

My point exactly. But to Mota, by the way he talks about it, it seems like his assertion feels intuitively correct to him, regardless of his inability to back it up with some form of logic. So it's likely his opinion won't be swayed.

Coincidentally, after I posted a similar post to my last post in our other conversation, he stopped responding. I'm not really expecting any more responses, and will be just as happy to leave him alone from now on. It's a shame when I can't convince someone to be a bit more compassionate and rational toward others, but if I fail there's no sense in continuing to try.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
chili dogged her? You (and half the US) know Backfire's mom wouldn't have it any other way.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You (and half the US) know Backfire's mom wouldn't have it any other way. guess thats my life lesson for the day.

Guys...Christmas is not the time to see who is right and who is wrong. It's a time to love and spend it with family and friends. Love each other. Atheists give a hug to Christians...Christians hug them back.





Oh, you STFU and go away.

Not really but I love it and it is a time of joy and peace.

I believe it's also pagan to celebrate a persons birth. It's the death that was usually celebrated.

For me it is not religious, but more a time to spend time with family and friends

Originally posted by DigiMark007
My point exactly. But to Mota, by the way he talks about it, it seems like his assertion feels intuitively correct to him, regardless of his inability to back it up with some form of logic. So it's likely his opinion won't be swayed.

Coincidentally, after I posted a similar post to my last post in our other conversation, he stopped responding. I'm not really expecting any more responses, and will be just as happy to leave him alone from now on. It's a shame when I can't convince someone to be a bit more compassionate and rational toward others, but if I fail there's no sense in continuing to try.

I don't hate Ahteists. I have friends and family who are. You make it sound like I snipe them for kicks.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I don't hate Ahteists. I have friends and family who are. You make it sound like I snipe them for kicks.

I already discussed this exact point. Making it again doesn't validate it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I didn't say you disliked them. We've had this conversation before, and you again mentioned your son.

But your comments are, in fact, bigoted against atheists whether you want to admit it or not. And you have yet to offer anything in support of such widespread generalizations other than 1-2 people you know or saw on the internet, and the intuitive "well doesn't it seem like a lot of them are like that...?" style of arguments.

If I have a friend who is black, then talk about some racial stereotype of blacks like it's unwavering truth about the general populace of balck people, I'm racist. And I think I used this same example (and these same arguments) last time we talked. So you either aren't reading, aren't remembering, or can't comprehend your own bias.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I already discussed this exact point. Making it again doesn't validate it.

An aspect of Atheists I don't care for isn't comparable with racsim.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
An aspect of Atheists I don't care for isn't comparable with racsim.

Yes it is, because both are unjustified generalizations that are derogatory toward another group of people.

When the Catholics were taking over, they found out that the Pagans had all these festivals that were associated with their beliefs. The Catholics certainly couldn't allow them to keep these festivals as they were not Christian, so they came up with a compromise. They would let the Pagans keep their festivals, but it would have a different name. The Pagans agreed. Therefore, while Christmas does promote a Christian atmosphere, it was not originally a Christian holiday. It was just something thrown in to keep the Pagans happy.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yes it is, because both are unjustified generalizations that are derogatory toward another group of people.

Not quite. I acknowledged a long time ago that not all Atheist share that view, so you're really harping my observation to death.

You're not one of those "religous people are dumb" Atheists, so you seem to assume that it's a rare, few-and-far-between trait among them.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Not quite. I acknowledged a long time ago that not all Atheist share that view, so you're really harping my observation to death.

You're not one of those "religous people are dumb" Atheists, so you seem to assume that it's a rare, few-and-far-between trait among them.

Jesus, are we still going around in this circle?

You're still asserting that the majority of atheists are like that. Thus, a generalization. Saying "I don't think it's all of them" does nothing to help you escape from your comments.

And you haven't provided any logical support for the opinion other than intuitive guessing, a few case studies of internet hatred, and your intrinsic sense that it's probably right.

...and yes, I have my opinion on the matter, and it may be biased. Possibly as biased as yours (though I consider that to be very doubtful, given your stubborness in this bigotry). But the difference is that I'm not assuming that I'm right based on nothing but intolerance and guesswork.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
An aspect of Atheists I don't care for isn't comparable with racsim. Its an intolerance of other people, poorly defended by stating that you have friends that are that which you are prejudiced against.

It's like that peruivian guy with his racist crack against mexicans.

"I'm not being racist, cause I have friends who are mexican."
"I'm not being prejudiced, against atheists I have friends who are atheist."
"I'm not being homophobic, I have friends who are homosexual."
"I'm not being prosopoleptic, I have friends who are ugly.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Jesus, are we still going around in this circle?

You're still asserting that the majority of atheists are like that. Thus, a generalization. Saying "I don't think it's all of them" does nothing to help you escape from your comments.

And you haven't provided any logical support for the opinion other than intuitive guessing, a few case studies of internet hatred, and your intrinsic sense that it's probably right.

Ijole guey, I don't live on or get my information from a computer. I've known and spoken with many Atheists. Of course they don't represent the world's population.

Also, I commend you for not being one of those.

Thanks for the commendation and all, but I'm really more interested in trying to convince you that (if nothing else) a bit more compassion/tolerance is in order, and not being so quick to judge aspects of society that you aren't prepared to analyze empirically. It is an assumption. It is a generalization. It is derogatory toward atheists, including your son, regardless of your view of him personally. And I think you'd be better off trying to rid yourself of it.

...the kind of statements that you make are the kinds of things I face regularly as an atheist, because public sentiment is more strongly opposed to the notion than many people realize. Most of it is un-true, and just a by-product of society's natural slant toward theism. But when I see people making such statements (like you do), I cringe, regardless of whether it's directed at me personally or not....because it's creating needless bias that can't lead to good.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Thanks for the commendation and all, but I'm really more interested in trying to convince you that (if nothing else) a bit more compassion/tolerance is in order, and not being so quick to judge aspects of society that you aren't prepared to analyze empirically. It is an assumption. It is a generalization. It is derogatory toward atheists, including your son, regardless of your view of him personally. And I think you'd be better off trying to rid yourself of it.

...the kind of statements that you make are the kinds of things I face regularly as an atheist, because public sentiment is more strongly opposed to the notion than many people realize. Most of it is un-true, and just a by-product of society's natural slant toward theism. But when I see people making such statements (like you do), I cringe, regardless of whether it's directed at me personally or not....because it's creating needless bias that can't lead to good.

Why do you personally find it deragatory? The Atheists who hold that view are proud of it, it's as though disbelieving in any god(s) is liberating.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Why do you personally find it deragatory? The Atheists who hold that view are proud of it, it's as though disbelieving in any god(s) is liberating.

It is, imo. But that doesn't mean they hold themselves above theists somehow (angry internet video-bloggers notwithstanding). I find it personally derogatory because if I had to venture a guess, I'd say the large majority of atheists aren't like that. Yet societal sentiment is very much in accord with your statements....so you have an inherent bias (and many times, dislike) of atheists "in general." And rational, compassionate atheists need to overcome that before anyone will respect them, and are met with hostility, anger, and derogatory assumptions....a needless hurdle that can be overcome with increased tolerance.

My own mother was scared when I said I was an atheist. Not of me personally, but all she knew was that the word atheist is "bad". And it wasn't learned from actual statistical data, but just idiotic cultural bias against the concept.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Why do you personally find it deragatory? The Atheists who hold that view are proud of it, it's as though disbelieving in any god(s) is liberating. As well as those that think that believing in a god is liberating as well. Just face it you do not know, you have not talked to that many atheist to make a correct judgment, much the same that I have, which I pretty sure I've talked to more. It could be very well that your assumption is correct but you can not possibly know this for a fact or even make a logical argument because you do not have enough evidence or proof to back up your claim.

Originally posted by The Grey Fox
For me it is not religious, but more a time to spend time with family and friends this seems to be the general consensus.

http://www.wisopinion.com/blogs/uploaded_images/jeffparkerfloridatoday-722715.gif

exactly.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
exactly. I agree with that fully, too.


Doesn't relate to your point though.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I agree with that fully, too.


Doesn't relate to your point though. I never acknowledged or denied that it did. I was agreeing with the clerk, that the WHOLE holiday season, the time before christmas until new years, can be referred to as "happy holidays."

It's a HOLIDAY whether you celebrate it as the birth of christ, or as a time for family.


you dont believe in christ and celebrate it as a time to be with family. I believe in christ and celebrate it as his birthday.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I never acknowledged or denied that it did. I was agreeing with the clerk, that the WHOLE holiday season, the time before christmas until new years, can be referred to as "happy holidays."

So...you agreed with the opposite point the comic strip was making? Wouldn't that be "disagree" (sry if me englsh not gud)?


Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It's a HOLIDAY whether you celebrate it as the birth of christ, or as a time for family.

True. A holiday called Christmas.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you dont believe in christ and celebrate it as a time to be with family. I believe in christ and celebrate it as his birthday.

Yes, I like when people come to the same conclusion after I debate with them, I just prefer if they'd admit it. That's shameful pride.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So...you agreed with the opposite point the comic strip was making? Wouldn't that be "disagree" (sry if me englsh not gud)?I agree that late december to early january is a holiday season. one could even say it begins with thanksgiving. three different holidays in a little more than a month.




what, did I call it festivus or something?



I never denied that you do not celebrate christmas as a time to be with family. I merely stated that for someone to be an atheist and celebrate christmas is ludicrous.

BUT..to each their own, people can do what they want to, and I can still disagree.

So the fact remains that you think it is OK for atheists to celebrate christmas, whereas I do not......this is the part where you get off your high horse.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

BUT..to each their own, people can do what they want to, and I can still disagree.

So the fact remains that you think it is OK for atheists to celebrate christmas, whereas I do not......this is the part where you get off your high horse.

Nah, I am right, you wrong.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, I am right, you wrong. well, you ARE German, OF COURSE you'd think that.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, you ARE German, OF COURSE you'd think that. Nah. I think logically, of course I'd think that.

dont celebrate xmas, celebrate winter solstice though, a tradition that has survived in this country even though the celebration was banned by the church when the it established itself here. Xmas in my language is called JUL, JUL wasnt a christian thing though they adapted the word as it was their own . So when people ask me if I celebrate JUL? I answer the original version or the adapted christian one? I take the original one, same date same custom of a meal and gift giving as the chrisitian version have become

Winter solstice

Pagans are running the world.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah. I think logically, of course I'd think that. tell me more.

its ok for them to celebrate winter solstice or JUL the latter is just the same as xmas just without the jesus part

Originally posted by DigiMark007


...the kind of statements that you make are the kinds of things I face regularly as an atheist, because public sentiment is more strongly opposed to the notion than many people realize. Most of it is un-true, and just a by-product of society's natural slant toward theism. But when I see people making such statements (like you do), I cringe, regardless of whether it's directed at me personally or not....because it's creating needless bias that can't lead to good.

Not really digi, because some of that bias also come from other atheists. Some claim to be the "stronger" atheists and call others the "weakest" or the implicit and the explicit atheists...or positive and negative atheism...whatever they go with..

I see it all as communities...christian..atheist...communism whatever...there will be indifferences among each other. Which will lead to misconceptions. It is better that no one can speak for the many nor the many can speak for one. It is bette to speak for one self than for others. These are also not products of society...but products of their own party.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarfEvilTwin
I like Digi

We all do.

I don' t see how the distinction between strong atheism and weak atheism, reflecting the diversity which exists among atheists when it comes to their positions on the existence of gods, has anything to do with the claim that atheists would regard themselves as intellectually or rationally superior to theists.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Not really digi, because some of that bias also come from other atheists. Some claim to be the "stronger" atheists and call others the "weakest" or the implicit and the explicit atheists...or positive and negative atheism...whatever they go with..

I see it all as communities...christian..atheist...communism whatever...there will be indifferences among each other. Which will lead to misconceptions. It is better that no one can speak for the many nor the many can speak for one. It is bette to speak for one self than for others. These are also not products of society...but products of their own party.

But that's been my point all along. I haven't been trying to expunge atheists of all blame, nor indite Christians with the same claims. But speaking as if a religious "group" is a certain way is almost always wrong, because it's speaking in such generalized, unsupported terms.

A little of it might be the party, as you put it, but whichever party a person throws in with is a product of their own decision. It's not the religion that is angry, or compassionate, or dumb, or smart, or intolerant, etc. It's the person. So talking about all atheists, or all Christians, or all anything (since my point has been about the methodology of the logic, not the specific parties in question) is wrong, and quite often rude toward large groups of people who are wrongly labeled by such ignorance.

This all stemmed from my discussion with Mota, where I've given up entirely at this point. Any appeal to him for more compassion, or even just empirical reasoning, has been met with his attempts to justify his bigotry. It's sad, but I've run out of things to say and can't really repeat the same arguments if they haven't worked the first couple times.



Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
We all do.

As well you should.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But that's been my point all along. I haven't been trying to expunge atheists of all blame, nor indite Christians with the same claims. But speaking as if a religious "group" is a certain way is almost always wrong, because it's speaking in such generalized, unsupported terms.

A little of it might be the party, as you put it, but whichever party a person throws in with is a product of their own decision. It's not the religion that is angry, or compassionate, or dumb, or smart, or intolerant, etc. It's the person. So talking about all atheists, or all Christians, or all anything (since my point has been about the methodology of the logic, not the specific parties in question) is wrong, and quite often rude toward large groups of people who are wrongly labeled by such ignorance.

This all stemmed from my discussion with Mota, where I've given up entirely at this point. Any appeal to him for more compassion, or even just empirical reasoning, has been met with his attempts to justify his bigotry. It's sad, but I've run out of things to say and can't really repeat the same arguments if they haven't worked the first couple times.




Or we could simplified everything and just say that there are individuals who possess such large egos. That don't matter what they think is right...makes themselves look bad and put a stain on their respective idealism. Which leads to others with even larger egos to make judgements.

It's a clash of egos.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarfEvilTwin
Whatever! Digi makes more sense.

Stop taking sides.

I went back about 4 pages to search for the evil twin guy, not realizing it was just WD d*cking around.

The assumption that "atheists think themselves superior to those who are religious" has the same problem as the assumption that "all Christians are batshit insane".

It's not at all true. What it is is the craziest minority is always the loudest and thus always the section focused on, and thus everyone else who has the same beliefs (or lack of) is also generalized to be like this.

But it's NOT indicative of how the majority is at all.

At any rate, Christmas has never really been a religious holiday in my family. It's just a fun (well, relatively speaking, I'm actually not very fond of this time of year) day for us to try and not kill each other and stuff.

Edit: Damn you WD, you more or less made the same point I did while I was posting because I was thinking too long on making sure I worded things to make sense

Lana = pwnt

Also, our points are all interrelated, so a to both.

I don't celebrate Xmas, since I'm an atheist.

It's lost it's religious meaning amidst the commercialism and whoring of the holiday to consumers around the world.

I do, however, exchange gifts with my loved ones and spend quality holiday time with them.

After reading Lana, Digi, and WD's posts make me want to sang and dance for the world to unite.


But yeah Christmas has never been very religious for me. It's mostly having fun.

So N-E-Waiz. Christmas is a cool pagan holiday. I used to get all Charlie Brown around the holidays, so I have lots of good individual memories, but sort of a morose feeling from my memories of the time of year. Most of that's gone though, mainly because I'm not a melodramatic, melancholy teenager anymore.

I'm actually excited to get through my first Christmas as an outed atheist among friends and family who take the religious aspect very seriously. It's only a matter of time before someone drops it amongst relatives and we end up with some awkward silences. Like the weirder-than-it-needs-to-be revelation people have when someone blurts out that I'm a vegetarian (others always feel the need to share this, as though it defines me at the dinner table)....then they seem to get all nervous, apologizing for any meat on the table and/or informing me what I can order off the menu. I chuckle inwardly at the absurdity, but it's amusing. Anyway, like that times 10.

Which will be good times, of course. I welcome such occurrences nowadays, though I won't actively seek them out.

Christmas is a social holiday.


I love Christmas, cuz I get gifts, and spend free valuabe time with my family that I rarely get the chance to spend. I don't care if it's "Christian" or "Pagan" in root.

The food is always great! Don't care much about the gift giving.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Christmas is a social holiday.


I love Christmas, cuz I get gifts, and spend free valuabe time with my family that I rarely get the chance to spend. I don't care if it's "Christian" or "Pagan" in root. Dad forgets about you being the shame of the family over Christmas?

Originally posted by Deja~vu

Originally posted by Bardock42
Dad forgets about you being the shame of the family over Christmas? A loving family would in most cases.

Statistics?