How did Christians justify slavery?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Master-Borg
This has prob been asked, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

Storm
There is no specific condemnation of slavery to be found anywhere in the Bible. On the contrary, God is depicted of both approving of and regulating slavery, and the Bible has been cited as proof that slavery was part of the normal condition.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Master-Borg
This has prob been asked, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

How do Muslims justify slavery today?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Master-Borg
This has prob been asked, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

There are explicitly pro-slavery verses in the bible. In the memoirs of FredrickDouglas it's even mentioned that owners who are Christian sometimes become even more vicious because they feel morally vindicated.

Of course most Christians nowadays (or at least the ones I know) focus on the parts of the Bible that are about love and equality. Partially because that's the stuff that Jesus actually said and all the things about slavery and such are OT.

Master-Borg
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
How do Muslims justify slavery today? no clue. but islam seems a lot less pro-equality than christianity in general

Master-Borg
Originally posted by Storm
There is no specific condemnation of slavery to be found anywhere in the Bible. On the contrary, God is depicted of both approving of and regulating slavery, and the Bible has been cited as proof that slavery was part of the normal condition. I understand there is prob no condemnation of slavery, but doesn't the bible preach treat your fellow man as you would like to be treated?

what in the bible shows god approving and regulating slavery?

Storm
When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.
- Exod. 21:20-21 -

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
- 1 Tim. 6:1-5 -

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
- Eph. 6:5-6 -

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.
- Titus 2:9-10 -

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval.
- 1 Pet. 2:18-29 -

ushomefree

Nellinator
What slavery are we talking about? American slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations. There was no official theology supporting it.

If we are talking about OT slavery it has to be noted that it was not slavery as we know it. After 7 years (I think this is the correct number of years, but I'm not positive off the top of my head) the "slave" is to go free. Abused slaves are to go free, they can make money, have families, etc.

Quark_666
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There are explicitly pro-slavery verses in the bible. In the memoirs of FredrickDouglas it's even mentioned that owners who are Christian sometimes become even more vicious because they feel morally vindicated.

If anybody knows how to find those verses, I'm really interested in hearing about them.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Nellinator
What slavery are we talking about? American slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations. There was no official theology supporting it.

If we are talking about OT slavery it has to be noted that it was not slavery as we know it. After 7 years (I think this is the correct number of years, but I'm not positive off the top of my head) the "slave" is to go free. Abused slaves are to go free, they can make money, have families, etc.

youll justify anything wont you.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Nellinator
What slavery are we talking about? American slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations. There was no official theology supporting it.

If we are talking about OT slavery it has to be noted that it was not slavery as we know it. After 7 years (I think this is the correct number of years, but I'm not positive off the top of my head) the "slave" is to go free. Abused slaves are to go free, they can make money, have families, etc.

I was goint to mention something similar to what you're posting. Isn't the Old Testament the one that deals with slavery? That's where most of the great kings and heroes are described. Whereas the New Testament the one that says love each other and see each other as brothers and sisters.



You mean you "tried" to command me.

inimalist
2 translations from Timothy, certainly NT stuff:

1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

------------

1 Timothy 6:1-2 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Master-Borg
This has prob been asked, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

Slavery is evil. There is no way that slavery can be justified.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Slavery is evil. There is no way that slavery can be justified. Unless I own you laughing evil face

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Unless I own you laughing evil face

stick out tongue Yes master. laughing

Storm
Originally posted by Nellinator
What slavery are we talking about? American slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations. There was no official theology supporting it.

If we are talking about OT slavery it has to be noted that it was not slavery as we know it. After 7 years (I think this is the correct number of years, but I'm not positive off the top of my head) the "slave" is to go free. Abused slaves are to go free, they can make money, have families, etc.
Biblical law established two types of slavery, indentured servitude (Israelites) and foreign slavery (non-Israelites). Indentured servants had to be freed after a period of time, but foreign slaves were slaves for life and could be handed down from father to son.

Deja~vu
Well, your boss owns you.

inimalist
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Well, your boss owns you.

ummm, you know that contract you signed

ya

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Well, your boss owns you.

But I can quit my job any time.

Nellinator
Originally posted by leonheartmm
youll justify anything wont you. What did I justify? Oh wait...

Zeal Ex Nihilo
I don't believe slavery is inherently wrong. I believe that "wrongness" depends on two things. One, the manner of slave acquisition (i.e., captured in battle? indebtedness?). Two, the treatment of the slave.

Also, Nellinator is right about releasing slaves after seven years...not that I could find the verse for the life of me.

Nellinator
Neither can I...

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I don't believe slavery is inherently wrong. I believe that "wrongness" depends on two things. One, the manner of slave acquisition (i.e., captured in battle? indebtedness?). Two, the treatment of the slave.

Also, Nellinator is right about releasing slaves after seven years...not that I could find the verse for the life of me.


Indentured Servants were free to leave after seven years, thier temporary slavery was like a debt.

Other slaves, like Storm cited "foriegners" were slaves for life.


Slavery, in my eyes, is inheritantly wrong. No human has the right to "own" another human. Does that not violate your concept of Free Will in the least ?

Nellinator
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Other slaves, like Storm cited "foriegners" were slaves for life. I can't find this. But it would not surprise me if POWs were kept as such.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Slavery, in my eyes, is inheritantly wrong. No human has the right to "own" another human. Does that not violate your concept of Free Will in the least ?
With the option of being dead, I would think that slavery was an acceptable alternative.

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
With the option of being dead, I would think that slavery was an acceptable alternative.


So that somehow makes Slavery right ? erm


I love how your logic works....

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Indentured Servants were free to leave after seven years, thier temporary slavery was like a debt.

If I recall highschool history the usually ended up as normal servants for exactly the same people after those 7 years were up because they lacked any sort of marketable skill.

frankenfeltch
You could ask the same question about genocide...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by frankenfeltch
You could ask the same question about genocide...

Not here you can't. But there are six or seven dozen other threads about that.

frankenfeltch
I've realized that there is not a whole lot to post about in this forum anymore, everything has already been covered.


wait, that means that I have all the answers to every question ever asked right at my fingertips!

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by frankenfeltch
I've realized that there is not a whole lot to post about in this forum anymore, everything has already been covered.


wait, that means that I have all the answers to every question ever asked right at my fingertips!

You'd think.

frankenfeltch
not really

Symmetric Chaos
Sarcasm is hard to get across in writing.

peejayd
Originally posted by Master-Borg
This has prob been asked, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

* Catholics, not Christians... i remember the pope apologizing for the "holy" inquisition... wink

Bardock42
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sarcasm is hard to get across in writing. I think he just read it as "You think?" instead of "You would think."

frankenfeltch
That's what it was.

The problem with organized religion, including christianity, is a group of elders can sit around and justify anything they'd like meanwhile convincing their followers that said issue is justifiable.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by frankenfeltch
That's what it was.

The problem with organized religion, including christianity, is a group of elders can sit around and justify anything they'd like meanwhile convincing their followers that said issue is justifiable.

Well having some experience with norther Presbyterian churches I can tell you that's not always true. PCUSA even has a bylaws specifically designed to prevent any group from gaining power within the church hierarchy.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Master-Borg
How did Christians justify slavery?

This is how:

Originally posted by Nellinator
If we are talking about OT slavery it has to be noted that it was not slavery as we know it. After 7 years (I think this is the correct number of years, but I'm not positive off the top of my head) the "slave" is to go free. Abused slaves are to go free, they can make money, have families, etc.

Bicnarok

Bicnarok

chithappens
Originally posted by Nellinator
What slavery are we talking about? American slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations. There was no official theology supporting it.


You are joking right? Surely you don't believe folks in Europe did not own slaves.

The only period you could possibly reference here is before the middle of the 19th century. I just went through a British literature course and there were plenty of slaves scattered everywhere. I can cite literature if need be to prove the point.

Adam_PoE

Nellinator
The British were not Catholic. The Catholics were very adamant about the ONE church thing. They directly opposed the slavery associated with colonialism because of their theology on all people being free to belong to the Church. Many Protestant denominations followed suit. I'm not sure about the Anglican church.

Shakyamunison

inimalist
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't believe there is such a thing as a True Christian.

All true muslims are at Mosque on Friday mornings

therefore: It is ok to kill people on Friday mornings, because any Muslims you hit aren't REAL Muslims, else they would be at Mosque.

I think it is very dangerous to say who is a real whatever and who is not.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by inimalist
All true muslims are at Mosque on Friday mornings

therefore: It is ok to kill people on Friday mornings, because any Muslims you hit aren't REAL Muslims, else they would be at Mosque.

I think it is very dangerous to say who is a real whatever and who is not.

I agree...

Also, it seems that the people who talk about True Christians, make the assumption that they are one on the true Christians. You know what they say about assumptions?

anaconda
guess the Spanish and Portuguese explorers, colonisations and conquistadors missed that part then.........

inimalist
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I agree...

Also, it seems that the people who talk about True Christians, make the assumption that they are one on the true Christians. You know what they say about assumptions?

Hey, when you know 100% that God agrees with you.....

sigh

I forget the quote, but I know it is something like "do not pray that God is on our side, but that we are on God's side". I've always liked the sentiment.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Master-Borg
This has prob been asked, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

During the 1800's the Southern slavers attempted to justify slavery by arguing that Blacks were descended from Cain, and their skin was darkened by all their inherited sins. And therefore deserved slavery.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
During the 1800's the Southern slavers attempted to justify slavery by arguing that Blacks were descended from Cain, and their skin was darkened by all their inherited sins. And therefore deserved slavery.

And they were good and true Christians. sad

Quiero Mota
They bended it to suit their agenda.

Melcórë
As do all humankind....

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
They bended it to suit their agenda.

There is no bending this:

Originally posted by Storm

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.
- Exod. 21:20-21 -

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
- 1 Tim. 6:1-5 -

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
- Eph. 6:5-6 -

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.
- Titus 2:9-10 -

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval.
- 1 Pet. 2:18-29 -

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
There is no bending this:

There's no bending those, but the crap about Black people was entirely pulled out of someone's ass on the spot to justify slavery.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
There's no bending those, but the crap about Black people was entirely pulled out of someone's ass on the spot to justify slavery.

B-but they used science to prove that white people were better.

Quiero Mota
Psuedoscience =/= Science

lil bitchiness
Racism is a fairly new thing. It was introduced as a means of separating those who were white and poor/slaves and those who were black slaves. They are meant to keep one another from creating an alliance and rebelling against masters/owners.


Kristianz did it for the lulz. lulz. lulz. lulz.

Deja~vu
How did Christians justify slavery? Because we all must serve master Jesus?
confused

chithappens
Originally posted by Bicnarok

People nowadays can read the bible for themselves and see what is wrong, no matter what the elders say.



Yeah and that's why no churches are separate in how they understand the Bib... oh yea wait...

There's "reading" and then there is "reading comprehension." Different people can get whatever they want from text.

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Kristianz did it for the lulz. lulz. lulz. lulz.


LULZ

Deja~vu
Originally posted by inimalist
Hey, when you know 100% that God agrees with you.....

sigh

I forget the quote, but I know it is something like "do not pray that God is on our side, but that we are on God's side". I've always liked the sentiment. Scripture teaches that god is on the side of the, TRUTH, the just and righteous. smile

No religion, no indocternation, only truth and that is all, oh and doing what is right in not harming others.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Scripture teaches that god is on the side of the, TRUTH, the just and righteous. smile

No religion, no indocternation, only truth and that is all, oh and doing what is right in not harming others.

Of course that didn't stop him for telling the Israelites to kill every living thing in Canan.

Deja~vu
Was that really god or man.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Was that really god or man.

In the Bible it was God.

Deja~vu
the god based on the Assyrians, Babylons, or what?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Deja~vu
the god based on the Assyrians, Babylons, or what?

God, based on the Bible (which I've said already)

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
So that somehow makes Slavery right ? erm


I love how your logic works....
You have still to prove that slavery is somehow a morally wrong act. PROTIP: Unless you can give evidence to the contrary, something is a morally neutral act.

leonheartmm
^ you still have to prove to me that raping and killing babies is sumhow, in your delusional little world, a morally wrong act. unless you can give evidence to the contrary, it is a morally neutral act. {everything is reletive my man, see i being the intelligent person i am, can SEE that above the likes of you and hence know that my logic is superior to yours and am going to rape and kill a few babies}

Zeal Ex Nihilo
In a world where there is no God, rape and murder aren't wrong. I won't try to "prove" otherwise--in the atheist world, humans are little more than animals, and animals partake in unsavory acts because, well, they're animals.

leonheartmm
^GUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA, says the little boy who can see no morality outside his delusion. logic can be very well used to create a morality and distinction between what is right and wrong. i explained it sumwhere around here a few days ago i think.

and please, your gonna have to come up with a better explanation of "animals" partaking in "unsavoury acts" , just based on the fact that they are "animal". that is called circular logic.

leonheartmm
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=472474&pagenumber=2

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ you still have to prove to me that raping and killing babies is sumhow, in your delusional little world, a morally wrong act. unless you can give evidence to the contrary, it is a morally neutral act. {everything is reletive my man, see i being the intelligent person i am, can SEE that above the likes of you and hence know that my logic is superior to yours and am going to rape and kill a few babies}

You shouldn't though. Even without a divine boogey man stopping you a logical person in our world be able to see that raping and killing babies is not conducive to the success of the human race. If you are human (lets assume you are) then as a living creature one of your primary motivating drives is to ensure the survival of the species which it the opposite of what killing and raping do.


So there stick out tongue

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Storm
There is no specific condemnation of slavery to be found anywhere in the Bible. On the contrary, God is depicted of both approving of and regulating slavery, and the Bible has been cited as proof that slavery was part of the normal condition.

On May 29, 1537 Paul III promulgated the papal bull Sublimus Dei against the enslavement of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimus_Dei

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^GUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA, says the little boy who can see no morality outside his delusion. logic can be very well used to create a morality and distinction between what is right and wrong. i explained it sumwhere around here a few days ago i think.

and please, your gonna have to come up with a better explanation of "animals" partaking in "unsavoury acts" , just based on the fact that they are "animal". that is called circular logic.
You fail. Why is killing a baby wrong? Well, because we said so. Why is torturing someone wrong? Well, because we said so. So what if it hurts someone?

SpearofDestiny
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You fail. Why is killing a baby wrong? Well, because we said so. Why is torturing someone wrong? Well, because we said so. So what if it hurts someone?


The fact that it hurts someone is what makes it wrong.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You fail. Why is killing a baby wrong? Well, because we said so. Why is torturing someone wrong? Well, because we said so. So what if it hurts someone?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=472474&pagenumber=2


READ my argument you presumptuous ass!

Quark_666
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You fail. Why is killing a baby wrong? Well, because we said so. Why is torturing someone wrong? Well, because we said so. So what if it hurts someone?

It is wrong because of the existence of a conscience, or a perception of right and wrong.

Why do consciences exist? Most people don't wanna know, because it is a really long explanation, dating back hundreds or thousands of millenniums to the earlier stages of evolution. I don't know the full explanation, because I'm not a geneticist (yet). If I did know, I wouldn't even want to explain it to you, so I'll just give you a simple basis for how it's possible. You can fill in the details alone. I'm a believer in God myself, but just because I'm a Christian (or a Mormon, for any perfectionists out there) doesn't mean I'm anti-science.

It is wrong because it is built into our evolutionary mindset. In some part of the brain, we evolved a perception of right and wrong. This indicates that the existence of a conscience is an evolutionary advantage...almost a necessity.

One reason for this is that for the last 6000 years at least, only people who followed their conscience had the privilege of living in families and societies...which have also proven to be almost necessary to the survival of man. The people who didn't...well, let's just say we don't have much of their DNA in us today.

Somewhere in history, somebody decided to link conscience with religion. Whether one existed before the other is irrelevant. They can evidently be independent of each other, as we are experiencing even as we chatter here on KMC.

There is now only one reason to resist our sense of right and wrong. When the conscience is overridden by other desires, hence what we refer to as crime. Sometimes, such as in the case of stealing food, overriding the conscience is a necessity (in terms of survival). Other times, such as in cases of illogical anger, our minds simply magnify our reasons for overriding the conscience...leading to torture, murder, etc. This is usually either a mistake in judgment on the part of the conscious mind or a lack of control on the part of the logical mind.

Our rather undeveloped minds would, if they were more developed, be able to stop illogical anger or unwise lust with pure logic, and then we would always follow our consciences until our sense of right and wrong until we meet times of extreme hunger, or one of the more basic desires (read about Maslow's Hierarchy for a deeper explanation).

I can keep going if you want me to.

leonheartmm
since i know u werent gonna check it. so i decided to quote it. is that reason enough for you?

Quark_666
Dude, I posted that forever ago.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
The fact that it hurts someone is what makes it wrong.
And yet, nature doesn't seem to give a damn about things like that, now does it?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And yet, nature doesn't seem to give a damn about things like that, now does it?

I don't think there is a moral consensus that inflicting harm makes an act wrong...so what his point is I'm not sure...

Jack R. Crown
I hate ****ing Christianity more than I hate Islam. Hateful religions have no place in the new world!

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
I hate ****ing Christianity more than I hate Islam. Hateful religions have no place in the new world!

Hypocrisy...

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
I hate ****ing Christianity more than I hate Islam. Hateful religions have no place in the new world!
Dongs.

I'm pretty sure he's just trolling.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Dongs.

I'm pretty sure he's just trolling.
I'm being ****ing serious mate. These modern religions are ****ing up the whole ****ing world! I mean in the beginning they were ****ing alright, but now they're ****ing hateful and ****ing nasty and cruel.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Hypocrisy...
**** you mate, you know what its like having your family killed by ****ing Islam terrorists who ****ing blow up buildings and shit? my family was in the ****ing world trade center ****er ok?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
**** you mate, you know what its like having your family killed by ****ing Islam terrorists who ****ing blow up buildings and shit? my family was in the ****ing world trade center ****er ok?

Riiiiiight, then for that reason I shall excuse your stupid statement and assume your still grieving therefore not in the right frame of mind.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Riiiiiight, then for that reason I shall excuse your stupid statement and assume your still grieving therefore not in the right frame of mind.
I'm being deadly serious, I've had 7 odd years to think about it now and I think that christianity and islam should be the next thing to go in the evoloution of mankind!

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Because Christianity was in league with them terrorists!

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
I'm being deadly serious, I've had 7 odd years to think about it now and I think that christianity and islam should be the next thing to go in the evoloution of mankind!

Yes...because its all Islam and Christianity's fault that America was all over the Arab world imposing itself in areas it should have left alone...and I'm a Brit and Catholic....we have a huge experience in that area...

Zeal Ex Nihilo
It's also Christianity's fault that the sandpeople suck at life.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Because Christianity was in league with them terrorists!
it wouldn't ****ing surprise me, they're all scheming peices of ****. the only half decent religion is this world is buddhism and thats being ****ing wiped out by the ****ing commie ****ers!
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes...because its all Islam and Christianity's fault that America was all over the Arab world imposing itself in areas it should have left alone...and I'm a Brit and Catholic....we have a huge experience in that area...
I hate the war in iraq as much as any half minded person! but terrorism is not good in any terms!

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
It's also Christianity's fault that the sandpeople suck at life.
You ****ing filthy ficking racist!

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
it wouldn't ****ing surprise me, they're all scheming peices of ****. the only half decent religion is this world is Buddhism and thats being ****ing wiped out by the ****ing commie ****ers!

Why is Buddhism a good religion? What do you know about it? Would you consider converting to it? The view of Buddhism is distorted by most people who view it as an airy fairy do want you want loose religion which involves pacifism and the rest...its far more detailed, complicated and dedicated than that...

Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
I hate the war in iraq as much as any half minded person! but terrorism is not good in any terms!

I wasn't talking about the war in Iraq...I was talking about all the stuff that led to 9/11...Islam is a convenient scapegoat... America's Socialists, Stalin's Capitalists, Hitler's Jews, Nero's Christians etc etc etc etc the entire terrorist threat is blown totally out of proportion just like all the times its happened in the past.

The fact that you brought it all back to Iraq shows you dont know what your talking about.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Dongs. He's going to get b&.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Dongs. He's going to get b&.
why am I? For having ****ing opinions mate?

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Why is Buddhism a good religion? What do you know about it? Would you consider converting to it? The view of Buddhism is distorted by most people who view it as an airy fairy do want you want loose religion which involves pacifism and the rest...its far more detailed, complicated and dedicated than that...



I wasn't talking about the war in Iraq...I was talking about all the stuff that led to 9/11...Islam is a convenient scapegoat... America's Socialists, Stalin's Capitalists, Hitler's Jews, Nero's Christians etc etc etc etc the entire terrorist threat is blown totally out of proportion just like all the times its happened in the past.

The fact that you brought it all back to Iraq shows you dont know what your talking about.
Buddhism is good because it hasn't started about a billion different ****ing wars! and I know all about my shitty countries ruination of the middle east! And in relpy to your scapegoat thing, you're forgetting one more! Christianities Satan!

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Jack R. Crown
why am I? For having ****ing opinions mate?
Because you're a spastic retard troll.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Because you're a spastic retard troll.
Oh what? I'm a ****ing troll for disagreeing with you mate? **** you, you ahve no ****ing debating skills jackoff. Go suck a ****ing tail pipe and do the whole ****ing world a favour!

Captain REX
Jack R. Crown, wash out your mouth and stop the hateful language or you'll be reprimanded. Thank you.

Jack R. Crown
Originally posted by Captain REX
Jack R. Crown, wash out your mouth and stop the hateful language or you'll be reprimanded. Thank you.
OK, I'm sorry. Jeez. They accused me of being a troll, why don't they get warned?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
And yet, nature doesn't seem to give a damn about things like that, now does it?

HUMAN nature does{so does animal nature to an extent. any sentience at an individual level definately does.} and that is what we shud really be concerned about. and why is it that you ask for answers, and when one is given, you refuse to reply to it? i explained this already. the above argument holds no meaning unless you can claim your OWN form is so trancendant {i.e. godlike} that in your eyes/perspective, existance/non existance, suffering/joy...... hold no special places and are concepts just like any other, none preferrable over the other.

see a HUMAN, whose form is DEFINED by existance as opposed to non existance, self preservation as opposed to destruction and basic preference for happiness as opposed to suffering can not CLAIM such an absurd position, because if he/she does, then they may as well be negating their own existance/form/defining characteristics. ofcopurse one can THINK about such things which are outside the grasps of their own form and existance, but no1 can EMBODY them or PURSUE them while remaning true to their form. that wud just be idiotic and self negating.

Captain King
Some people deserve to be enslaved.

The problem is not the act of justice but rather on who.


Slavery has been targeted at people based on race, creed, and financial level.


Instead of what it should be: actions.


What we do
How we think
These should what determine a person's level of freedom. Not things they can't help.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
HUMAN nature does{so does animal nature to an extent. any sentience at an individual level definately does.} and that is what we shud really be concerned about. and why is it that you ask for answers, and when one is given, you refuse to reply to it? i explained this already. the above argument holds no meaning unless you can claim your OWN form is so trancendant {i.e. godlike} that in your eyes/perspective, existance/non existance, suffering/joy...... hold no special places and are concepts just like any other, none preferrable over the other.

see a HUMAN, whose form is DEFINED by existance as opposed to non existance, self preservation as opposed to destruction and basic preference for happiness as opposed to suffering can not CLAIM such an absurd position, because if he/she does, then they may as well be negating their own existance/form/defining characteristics. ofcopurse one can THINK about such things which are outside the grasps of their own form and existance, but no1 can EMBODY them or PURSUE them while remaning true to their form. that wud just be idiotic and self negating.
PROTIP: Humans are merely sentient animals.

anaconda
Buddhism aint a clean sheet when it comes to war, the shit have hit the fen with Buddhist behind the wheel, so if good is a rating on low numbers of war involved in well...........

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
PROTIP: Humans are merely sentient animals.

untrue. you think too highly of the human race. animals are sentient too. they just do not posess the psychological complexity required to think much about the concept and have discussions such as this. it is like a baby who is pretty much newborn, animals are like that. that does not mean that they arent sentient.

and will you ever appropriately reply to answers that you yourself challenged others to produce , or is this your new thing? dismissing the content of entire posts based on one liners which dont even make sense?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
untrue. you think too highly of the human race. animals are sentient too. they just do not posess the psychological complexity required to think much about the concept and have discussions such as this. it is like a baby who is pretty much newborn, animals are like that. that does not mean that they arent sentient.

and will you ever appropriately reply to answers that you yourself challenged others to produce , or is this your new thing? dismissing the content of entire posts based on one liners which dont even make sense?
PROTIP: Humans are the most sentient animals.

Therefore, humans are subject to the exact same pressures of natural selection as everyone else. If I murder someone, then that someone clearly wasn't fit to survive. Thus, his lack of genetic material is a benefit to us.

In atheism, there is no morality. It is a construct, nothing more. It isn't immoral when a bear kills a fawn...or when it kills a human. Why should it be any different for us?

leonheartmm
^ why do you insist on being an idiot and totally disreguarding arguments made? i told you to reply to the argument "i" posted and you still have not. natural selection has no role in this. it isnt any criteria by which to create a morality. as i said before, that morality is based on our conciousness and the things which DEFINE us as contructs and the collective acheivement of those basis. it is true that there is no such thing as morality on the grand scale of the universe. but there doesnt HAVE to be, morality IS supposed to be a product and construct of SENTIENCES who are DEFINED by concepts of existance/self awarness/desire for hapiness and self preservation etc. unless you can claim to be BEYOND such concepts, i really dont see the point of you denying their usage as a valid criteria for morality, seeing as you yourself are sentient and the morality only holds for SENTIENT beings. it wud be like denying/negating your own existance.

protip : humans are the most psychologially sophisticated, and hence most able to THINK about their own sentience. whether it actually increases their quality of sentience or not is a contreversial issue and there are no definitive arguments either way.

leonheartmm
and really, this is why i hate faith based morality. the way you are talking gives me a very strong sense that if it werent for the fear/enforcement of DIVINE criteria of good and bad, youd probably be a eugenics supporter or spokesperson. is there nothing inside you that makes you feal these things are good or bad other than the teachings of christianity?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ why do you insist on being an idiot and totally disreguarding arguments made? i told you to reply to the argument "i" posted and you still have not. natural selection has no role in this. it isnt any criteria by which to create a morality. as i said before, that morality is based on our conciousness and the things which DEFINE us as contructs and the collective acheivement of those basis. it is true that there is no such thing as morality on the grand scale of the universe. but there doesnt HAVE to be, morality IS supposed to be a product and construct of SENTIENCES who are DEFINED by concepts of existance/self awarness/desire for hapiness and self preservation etc. unless you can claim to be BEYOND such concepts, i really dont see the point of you denying their usage as a valid criteria for morality, seeing as you yourself are sentient and the morality only holds for SENTIENT beings. it wud be like denying/negating your own existance.
You're only reinforcing my point: morality is a construct. Constructs are unnecessary and ought to be done away with. Also, the idea that morality is "supposed to be"...since when is there a "supposed to be" in nature?

JackieCD
How does everyone justify slavery? We are all slaves. Slaves to the bank machine.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Thanks for that insight.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You're only reinforcing my point: morality is a construct. Constructs are unnecessary and ought to be done away with. Also, the idea that morality is "supposed to be"...since when is there a "supposed to be" in nature?

no i am not. emty claims like that will getyou nowhere. your personal oppinion on what OUGHT to be done with constructs has no implication on the facts i presented which you can not deny about your own nature. and see, that last part just screams out that you did not even read my post. humans shud not be concerned with NATURE! neither shud any entities which are defined by the concepts i described their. all they can and shud be concerned about is HUMAN nature or the nature of the ENTITY in question. nature OUTSIDE those perspectives is merely a vague description of things which are made up by our own perspectives. otherwise, if you go AGAINST your basic nature or concepts that define and give rise to YOU, then that wud be pretty much like denying your own existance. and my argument is further made sound by the fact that SELF PRESERVATION is also a basic PART of our nature so we have the most basic of reasons to follow what our nature is.

your argument simply proves that when a satisfactory argument for morality outside divine will IS given, you wont be around to listen to it because it seems, that isnt really what you wanted to begin with. all you seems to want is to try and destroy any arguments for morality or truth other than that defined by god which is very narrow minded.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
As far as I can tell, your argument is as follows:

--Morality is a construct defined by several concepts.
--Morality is part of human nature and it defines/shapes us.
--Going against morality is like denying one's existence.

Is that correct?

leonheartmm
^mirepresentation. there are a lot more components that you write down there. and the reason i didnt give it in clean little points like that was because it isnt well defined that way. that isnt my argument at all.

please re read what i have written.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Um, it wasn't a misrepresentation--at least, not a purposeful one. If you would be so kind to summarize your argument, I would consider it. Not to be rude, but trying to read your writing is...trying, at best.

leonheartmm
it can not be summarised without losing the jist of it. that is why im not doing it, please re read. you completely misunderstood the argument.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.