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excellent thread, although Raziel technically does not have free will

how does he not ?
everyone says he does all through Soul Reaver II and Defiance......

because he is trapped into forever repeating the cycle of his excistence over and over again, so technically their all wrong, also not all the characters in LOK know what their saying, for example the powerful Time streamer who is supposed to know most about past, present and future does not even know Kain still is alive at the end of Defiance and even Elder God misses that one out, so they do not neccerily know what their saying, however the developer who said Raziel is trapped in that cycle does you see

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Jen,_Richard,_and_Kyle.html

while Raziel was always destined to be in the Reaver he CHOSE this time
original timeline having it take him forcefully he joined with the Reaver this time of his own decision and free will
nothing on the planet made him



Kain had been sent to the the Hylden's hellish realm which is apparently outside of Nosgoth and outside of the Wheel
Moebius and the Elder God could not have known he survived

Originally posted by Burning thought
excellent thread, although Raziel technically does not have free will

I believe he does. Only when he was under the control of Kain was he bound at will (If even then).

Originally posted by 123KID
while Raziel was always destined to be in the Reaver he CHOSE this time
original timeline having it take him forcefully he joined with the Reaver this time of his own decision and free will
nothing on the planet made him



Kain had been sent to the the Hylden's hellish realm which is apparently outside of Nosgoth and outside of the Wheel
Moebius and the Elder God could not have known he survived

thats the point, the free will thing is supposed to do with not having a preset desitiny, the problem is, he does, and thats the reaver is his destiny which is why i said he does not really have any free will, he chose to, but its a choice that he could not escape in truth, its debatable alone whether he had a choice at all

yes kain was and i know but its unusual neither of them forsore his return, just because he was sent there does not neccerily mean he lost his whole fate thing, neither of them knew Kain had come back, which ofc he does come out of the realm eventually, it seems Kain has some omnicience block

also Fuddle, when was he under kains control?

he was a vampire son but he was not bound, Kain was like their God however and they served him but the "free will" thing is a lot more dynamic than what your saying, it would be difficult i think for someone who has not played the games to understand no offence

Kain is not omniscient

He is a very intellectual character, who almost flawlessly forsaw a chain of events and an outcome, but not omniscient. If he were, he would have learnt how to grown wings before Raziel

Originally posted by Burning thought
thats the point, the free will thing is supposed to do with not having a preset desitiny, the problem is, he does, and thats the reaver is his destiny which is why i said he does not really have any free will, he chose to, but its a choice that he could not escape in truth, its debatable alone whether he had a choice at all

yes kain was and i know but its unusual neither of them forsore his return, just because he was sent there does not neccerily mean he lost his whole fate thing, neither of them knew Kain had come back, which ofc he does come out of the realm eventually, it seems Kain has some omnicience block

also Fuddle, when was he under kains control?

he was a vampire son but he was not bound, Kain was like their God however and they served him but the "free will" thing is a lot more dynamic than what your saying, it would be difficult i think for someone who has not played the games to understand no offence

When Kain brought him back to life, he served under Kain. He had no idea who he was and Kain manipulated him. If one has no idea who they are, they in my opinion can not be considered free at will.

However, "free will" is a fully philosophic term. No one can say exactly what free will is and what it is not.

Originally posted by Fuddle
Kain is not omniscient

He is a very intellectual character, who almost flawlessly forsaw a chain of events and an outcome, but not omniscient. If he were, he would have learnt how to grown wings before Raziel


sry when did i say he was omnicient, i said perhaps he can block omnicience, Elder God is supposedly almost omnicience about Nosgoth, Kain however and Raziel were not in his sight so he lost omnicient thanks to them i think

Originally posted by Fuddle
When Kain brought him back to life, he served under Kain. He had no idea who he was and Kain manipulated him. If one has no idea who they are, they in my opinion can not be considered free at will.

However, "free will" is a fully philosophic term. No one can say exactly what free will is and what it is not.

Free will in LOKverse is when you dont have a written fate, everyone in LOKverse has a written fate, Raziel belives and so does kain think that Raziel was released from this, unfortunatley they were wrong

Fair enough

he could have very easily not hae done it
he could have been buried by the Elder God and remained in the Spectral Realm forever
or he could have re-killed Kain
free will relates to the Wheel and the fact no one can see Raziel's destiny which is true no one can tell how Raziel would enter the Reaver

not Moebius, not the Elder God, not Kain



it's like Moebius explains to Kaina bout Raziel
Raziel is shrouded from them but they can see the ripples of his actions
Kain had revived in the other dimension and as soon as he got back to Nosgoth he never did much of anything until he confronted Moebius

there was no real way to see him because at this point he too was free from the Wheel



Fate in LOk relates to...the Wheel of Fate
all people have their twisted destinies controlled by the Elder God
to have "free will" is to be liberated from the Wheel in a complete way like Kain and Raziel in that they can never truly die like all other creatures can
even the Ancient vampires with their immortality would die if attacked and their bodies destroyed and their souls were drawn back to the Wheel
Kain's and Raziel's free will comes from their absolute immortality

Originally posted by 123KID
he could have very easily not hae done it
he could have been buried by the Elder God and remained in the Spectral Realm forever
or he could have re-killed Kain
free will relates to the Wheel and the fact no one can see Raziel's destiny which is true no one can tell how Raziel would enter the Reaver

not Moebius, not the Elder God, not Kain



it's like Moebius explains to Kaina bout Raziel
Raziel is shrouded from them but they can see the ripples of his actions
Kain had revived in the other dimension and as soon as he got back to Nosgoth he never did much of anything until he confronted Moebius

there was no real way to see him because at this point he too was free from the Wheel



Fate in LOk relates to...the Wheel of Fate
all people have their twisted destinies controlled by the Elder God
to have "free will" is to be liberated from the Wheel in a complete way like Kain and Raziel in that they can never truly die like all other creatures can
even the Ancient vampires with their immortality would die if attacked and their bodies destroyed and their souls were drawn back to the Wheel
Kain's and Raziel's free will comes from their absolute immortality


thats an assumption, the fact is he did, we could constantly say Kain could of easily allowed Raziel to be taken into the reaver early or chosen a diffrent path than what he is doing or the same with all beings but the fact is they dont and when they try, oddities happen, the fact is Time is immutable which means its already written, there is no true free will, the fact is he always will enter the reaver and is trapped in that same wheel as the guy says in that Q/A

they were always free from the wheel, the Elder Gods wheel they are free from always because of their immortality however there is still a written timeline for them, their fates are written, the wheel of fate is diffrent from fate because its what the EG calls his "wheel" that controls birth, death and then rebirth to feed him.

The Elder God simply controls birth, death and rebirth, what the beings do in this time is indiffrent, also he does not control vampires and immortals. The Ancient vampires never went to the wheel from what i remember, thats why Elder God abandoned them when they first became vampires thanks to the Hyldens spell

except HOW Raziel enters the Reaver is his CHOICE and his free will
it all comes to the same outcome but Raziel alone can write that part of history with his free will



kain was not free from the Wheel until his heart was ripped out



ithere are a few kinds of freedom from the EG's Wheel
you can can be a vampire or a ghost like Ariel
their souls never went to the Elder God

then there is true freedom from the Wheel and the free will which Raziel had where your essence can never and will never be "recycled"
as the Elder God can control the destinies of every soul on his Wheel he can essentially control time



don't you read what Raziel said ?
every bit of violence in history serves the Elder God and most of it is because of the Elder God
The Elder God is the reason Kain had two choices: damn Nosgoth by living or damn it by dying



this was the whole point of Soul Reaver 1
vampires are immortal and that's how they became "liberated" from the Wheel
the Ancients, like the vamps Raziel kills in SR1, have their souls trapped in their body
once they actually are killed by something their soul finally goes back to the Wheel

Originally posted by 123KID
except HOW Raziel enters the Reaver is his CHOICE and his free will
it all comes to the same outcome but Raziel alone can write that part of history with his free will



kain was not free from the Wheel until his heart was ripped out



ithere are a few kinds of freedom from the EG's Wheel
you can can be a vampire or a ghost like Ariel
their souls never went to the Elder God

then there is true freedom from the Wheel and the free will which Raziel had where your essence can never and will never be "recycled"
as the Elder God can control the destinies of every soul on his Wheel he can essentially control time



don't you read what Raziel said ?
every bit of violence in history serves the Elder God and most of it is because of the Elder God
The Elder God is the reason Kain had two choices: damn Nosgoth by living or damn it by dying



this was the whole point of Soul Reaver 1
vampires are immortal and that's how they became "liberated" from the Wheel
the Ancients, like the vamps Raziel kills in SR1, have their souls trapped in their body
once they actually are killed by something their soul finally goes back to the Wheel

its not real free will though, he has no choice about going into the blade, thats where he is going and theres nothing he can do about it

ofcourse he was free, he is an immortal vampire, his soul cannot go to the wheel just like any immortal or vampire, unless Raziel reaves it

Raziel is being poetic, i dont see how what you said there has anything to do with what i said, Elder God does control birth, death and rebirth.....hes taking the souls and the planet is dieing for it

no vampires go to the wheel without a wraith devouring it, if a vampire soul gets released, it becomes a vampire wraith out of SR 1

Originally posted by Fuddle
Kain is not omniscient

He is a very intellectual character, who almost flawlessly forsaw a chain of events and an outcome, but not omniscient. If he were, he would have learnt how to grown wings before Raziel
no, raziel had to grow wings, and even if kain did have foresight, he would have known what raziel was destined to be, just as he did the moment he saw raz with his wings..as soon as kain saw raz with wings, he knew what would become of him...kain wanted to use raz's free will to restore nosgoth to its prime, and rule it