Christmas, why celebrate it?

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Bicnarok

DigiMark007
Maybe this is wrong, but I don't think that a person who is taking part in the commercialized madness is necessarily desecrating the religious meaning. If the intent is genuine and altruistic, then the adherence to consumerism doesn't negate that. "True" religious people, who try to recognize the holiday's Christian meaning, buy and receive gifts too. It's too intrinsic to our society to avoid.

Most Christians do, in fact, realize it isn't Jesus' real birthday, though the majority are equally as unaware of the holiday's true origins. Unlike some aspects of their savior, they're willing to admit that the day is symbolic, not literal.

For the rest of us (the non-religious) it's once again such a societal convention that it can't be avoided. Try telling your kid he's the only one of his friends not getting gifts because you refuse to be a slave to the system. Or try "giving up" buying and receiving gifts some X-Mas. People will still get them for you, because it's such a tradition.

The closest I could ever think to being able to rid oneself of commercialization of the holiday is vowing to return any gifts, and donating the money to a pre-set charity.

anaconda
guess we celebrate all the others then

chithappens
Originally posted by DigiMark007


Most Christians do, in fact, realize it isn't Jesus' real birthday



No one can say this with certainty. I would actually make the opposite assumption.

Bicnarok
Well seeing as the sheep were in the fields when he was born its plainly obvious.smile

ushomefree
To address this thread, I provided a hyperlink that may provide insight to the question (not to mention statements by DigiMark007--which were not entirely false). The site is called, "Got Questions," and I have found it to be useful in referencing Christian theology, the origins of the faith, and a host of other topics. The site is straight forward, and the host does not pretend to know every answer on the issues. In any case, I hope--those of you who are interested--find the site just as informative as I have. Take care, and enjoy the holidays.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas.html

DigiMark007
Originally posted by ushomefree
(not to mention statements by DigiMark007--which were not entirely false).

laughing out loud

How kind of you.

Melcórë

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Maybe this is wrong, but I don't think that a person who is taking part in the commercialized madness is necessarily desecrating the religious meaning. If the intent is genuine and altruistic, then the adherence to consumerism doesn't negate that. "True" religious people, who try to recognize the holiday's Christian meaning, buy and receive gifts too. It's too intrinsic to our society to avoid.

Most Christians do, in fact, realize it isn't Jesus' real birthday, though the majority are equally as unaware of the holiday's true origins. Unlike some aspects of their savior, they're willing to admit that the day is symbolic, not literal.

For the rest of us (the non-religious) it's once again such a societal convention that it can't be avoided. Try telling your kid he's the only one of his friends not getting gifts because you refuse to be a slave to the system. Or try "giving up" buying and receiving gifts some X-Mas. People will still get them for you, because it's such a tradition.

The closest I could ever think to being able to rid oneself of commercialization of the holiday is vowing to return any gifts, and donating the money to a pre-set charity.

Thats because originally Jesus' birthday was not celebrated in December, that is, until Pope decided so. And it was not in line with Pagan celebration of December.
Christmas was originally celebrated in January.

But that doesn't matter, because its all about buying and more buying. I doubt anyone feels religious during Christmas.

Marketing Directors made sure of that.

Melcórë
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Thats because originally Jesus' birthday was not celebrated in December, that is, until Pope decided so. And it was not in line with Pagan celebration of December.
Christmas was originally celebrated in January.

But that doesn't matter, because its all about buying and more buying. I doubt anyone feels religious during Christmas.

Marketing Directors made sure of that.

I wouldn't imply that Christmas has lost all of its religious significance, especially for people in my life.

Symmetric Chaos

Melcórë
Questioning the validity and celebration of Christmas should be the least of things to worry about if you're a Christian - I'd be far more interested in discovering the various inconsistencies with regards the various versions of the Scripture, etc., etc.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But that doesn't matter, because its all about buying and more buying. I doubt anyone feels religious during Christmas.

Cheer up, Charlie Brown.

6pHVtaS0jHo

hypocrite

pat

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I doubt anyone feels religious during Christmas.

And yet we have three services on ChristmasEve and candles get passed out while we sing hymns.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Cheer up, Charlie Brown.

6pHVtaS0jHo

hypocrite

pat

cry I lover Charlie Brown.

Boris
Hmmmm...

- You get stuff.
- Lots to eat.
- Loads of drink
- Time off college
- Time off work

Lots of reasons!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Boris
Hmmmm...

- You get stuff.
- Lots to eat.
- Loads of drink
- Time off college
- Time off work

Lots of reasons!

- Loads of drink thumb up laughing

anaconda
add jesus and I guess we have two mythic figurers of xmas then

DigiMark007
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
- Loads of drink thumb up laughing

Cue SpearOfDestiny, and requisite gay inference.

31

DigiMark007
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
cry I lover Charlie Brown.

Me too, actually. I was going to post the real version, but then I found that and decided I'd play devil's advocate.

wink

But even more entertaining was this:

KGnYw-OuCnI

Lana
Originally posted by Boris
Hmmmm...

- You get stuff.
- Lots to eat.
- Loads of drink
- Time off college
- Time off work

Lots of reasons!

Time off work?! ****, this is the time of year that I work the most!

leonheartmm
^ do you dress up as santa clause at some supermaket too?!!! big grin

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by DigiMark007


I grew up my entire life not getting anything or even a "congrats" for Christmas or my birthday, to this day even, and I am the only one. I have no JW friends.. But I'm fine.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ do you dress up as santa clause at some supermaket too?!!! big grin

Well, this time of year people get lonely. They need "companionship." This is where Lana comes in....
































































































...she takes them to cosplay conventions with her.

angel








































...then sleeps with them.

Lana
I do not, you bastard! stick out tongue

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ do you dress up as santa clause at some supermaket too?!!! big grin

No stick out tongue Retail job, woooo. Christmas-time is the busiest time of the year. I can't complain much though, I need the money.

Deja~vu
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, this time of year people get lonely. They need "companionship." This is where Lana comes in....
































































































...she takes them to cosplay conventions with her.

angel








































...then sleeps with them. laughing out loud

Darth Ryon
I find christmas to be more of a custom than a religious holiday.

chickenlover98
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I grew up my entire life not getting anything or even a "congrats" for Christmas or my birthday, to this day even, and I am the only one. I have no JW friends.. But I'm fine.

u need a hug and about 5000 dollars to make up for the horrible punishment of not getting gifts. seriously

chickenlover98
umm christmas is really just bout gifts nowadays. just lik easter is about a big azz rabbit that really doesnt have much to do with the ressurection of jesus

Mark Question
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Me too, actually. I was going to post the real version, but then I found that and decided I'd play devil's advocate.

wink

But even more entertaining was this:

KGnYw-OuCnI

I prefer some metal in my Charlie Brown Christmas...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AC3sZB-v7Q

Dick Grayson
Well we celebrate the 25th of December because we have since long before the christian religion. It comes directly after the winter solstice on Dec 21st and is an amalgamation of the birth of christ with numerous pagan festivals that mark the rebirth of the sun as it reaches it's appex in June. Even the original name "Yule" for the original 12 day Christian festival means "Sun and Light".

anaconda
yeah welcome back sun

chickenlover98
Originally posted by anaconda
yeah welcome back sun

well sadly christmas will only last till the sun blows up smokin'

anaconda
my guess is that xmas wont last that long

chickenlover98
Originally posted by anaconda
my guess is that xmas wont last that long

same, but it will eventually.

PRAISE SCIENCE

WrathfulDwarf

Quark_666
I like that post, Wrathfuldwarf. Are you sure you aren't your evil twin?

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Well, we throw a party him anyways. People have birthdays during week days and they throw a celebration in the weekend.


... just noting that Jesus was born in the summer..

Deja~vu
Well there is nothing wrong with recognizing a Pagan Holiday like Christmas.


Blessed be the Sun Jesus Christ.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
... just noting that Jesus was born in the summer..
Spring surely? Late spring early summer?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Well there is nothing wrong with recognizing a Pagan Holiday like Christmas.


Blessed be the Sun Jesus Christ.
We don't celebrate the pagan festival anymore, we celebrate the Christian one...just on the same day...ofcourse the Christian holiday is slowing dying off and becomming a commercial one.

anaconda
some do

probably more that than dec 25

Deja~vu
Why not celebrate the real date of Jesus's birth instead of the pagan adopted one?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Why not celebrate the real date of Jesus's birth instead of the pagan adopted one?

The idea was to eradicate all pagan holidays from the face of the Earth. Christianity used to practice religious genocide.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Why not celebrate the real date of Jesus's birth instead of the pagan adopted one?

Because no one knows what it is.



Do people get this kind of angst over President's Day?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because no one knows what it is.



Do people get this kind of angst over President's Day?

laughing Ya, that pisses me off every year. laughing

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
laughing Ya, that pisses me off every year. laughing

furious I know. And President's Day is even worse! They already KNOW when those dudes were born!!!!11!!10



stick out tongue

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
furious I know. And President's Day is even worse! They already KNOW when those dudes were born!!!!11!!10



stick out tongue

Well at least we don't worship presidents, ... yet.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by chickenlover98
u need a hug and about 5000 dollars to make up for the horrible punishment of not getting gifts. seriously

Why?

I think it's stupid to say "Well it's Christmas so I'll just buy my kids some gifts lol."

If you actually love someone, why must there be a special day where you have to get them something?I don't care about Christmas because me and my family exchange gifts all YEAR, so what if I don't get presents on this one particular day? I have 70+ current-gen games (X-Box 360 and Wii) which is twice the amount of all my friends who don't celebrate Christmas, two days ago I got Rockband AND Guitar Hero: III not because it was Christmas but because I did something nice for someone.

Christmas is a sham anyway. The spiritual essence of it is a lie, as Christ wasn't born on the 25th, and it's all commercialized.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because no one knows what it is.



Do people get this kind of angst over President's Day?

uh, yeah we do. At least, we know it had to be in the Summer.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
uh, yeah we do. At least, we know it had to be in the Summer.

What a specific and well supported statement.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What a specific and well supported statement.

According to the bible is would have been a warmer time of the year; the shepherds were out in the fields tending their herds.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
According to the bible is would have been a warmer time of the year; the shepherds were out in the fields tending their herds.

Everyone knows that it never gets cold in the MiddleEast shifty

Anyway why would that rule out spring? Not to mention it doesn't even begin to give a specific date.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Everyone knows that it never gets cold in the MiddleEast shifty

Anyway why would that rule out spring? Not to mention it doesn't even begin to give a specific date.

Ya, your right. I think it would have been spring. However, we don't know if it even happened at all. All we have is the bible. To know more, we would need another source to cross reference.

big gay kirk
Christmas began in cynicism and lies and has continued in that vein ever since/.... i don't bother with it, and my son has never had it.. he seems far better adjusted than a lot of his greedy classmates, and has never had a problem with not having christmas.. regardless of any "religious" objections, I think anyone should find morally wrong a festival which in a large part involves lying to children.... "Santa" and "Father Christmas" (originally two separate entities) do not come down your chimney and leave presents.. little kids believe that he/they do only because adults tell them so, knowing it to be a lie... and eventually the kids find out... they are also told to be good, or they won't get their pressies.. and yet the presents are there regardless of behaviour... so the message seems to be"Your parents are liars and can't be trusted, and behave how you like because bad behaviour holds no unpleasant consequences for you..." the other more insidious message is that material things are more important than love, which of course, coupled with the lying leads to an immense disappointment with life.. and then the advertisers jump on you to tell you the way past this disappointment is to buy more material things, which again will disappoint, and so on.... no wonder people grow up bitter and twisted.. looked at objectively we'd all be better off without christmas....

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by big gay kirk
Christmas began in cynicism and lies and has continued in that vein ever since

Only for the extremely cynical.

Originally posted by big gay kirk
i don't bother with it, and my son has never had it.. he seems far better adjusted than a lot of his greedy classmates

And you know his classmates are greedy how?


Originally posted by big gay kirk
I think anyone should find morally wrong a festival which in a large part involves lying to children

Lets ban history and science classes in school too.

Originally posted by big gay kirk
the other more insidious message is that material things are more important than love

If only there were some religious aspect to Christmas that was all about love and celebration of life.

Originally posted by big gay kirk
which of course, coupled with the lying leads to an immense disappointment with life.. and then the advertisers jump on you to tell you the way past this disappointment is to buy more material things, which again will disappoint, and so on....

Maybe people should be less stupid and get past highschool melodrama.

Originally posted by big gay kirk
no wonder people grow up bitter and twisted.. looked at objectively we'd all be better off without christmas....

Clearly avoiding Christmas had prevented you from being bitter and cynical.

Deja~vu
Satan Clause was goooooooood to me. I got a wii....Oooo weeeee.

JackieCD
I celebrate it cause it makes my relatives happy to see everyone together.

big gay kirk
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos


Clearly avoiding Christmas had prevented you from being bitter and cynical.

Not a bitter twisted or cynical bone in my body.... but i am brown, stripy and minty...

peejayd
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
According to the bible is would have been a warmer time of the year; the shepherds were out in the fields tending their herds.

* very true... so basically, "white" christmas is a hoax... heck, "christmas" is a hoax... true Christians in the Bible never celebrated the birth of Jesus... what they celebrated - including Jesus Himself - was the Passover... and it is the symbol of Peace...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by peejayd
* very true... so basically, "white" christmas is a hoax... heck, "christmas" is a hoax... true Christians in the Bible never celebrated the birth of Jesus... what they celebrated - including Jesus Himself - was the Passover... and it is the symbol of Peace...

AFAIK there were no Christians in the bible. They were reform Judiasm.

I'm not sure how you can view the mass slaughter of the people of Egypt a symbol of peace.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ya, your right. I think it would have been spring. However, we don't know if it even happened at all. All we have is the bible. To know more, we would need another source to cross reference.

There are about 500 different documents and accounts the four you refer too, Gospels of Mark, Mathew, Luke and John are four separate documents written at different times by different people...don't treat it as one big document just because it was shoved together a few hundred years later...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
There are about 500 different documents and accounts the four you refer too, Gospels of Mark, Mathew, Luke and John are four separate documents written at different times by different people...don't treat it as one big document just because it was shoved together a few hundred years later...

The argument doesn't mean that much to me. I will leave it up to you to read the 500 documents and get back to me with a report. I'm working on a CD and that takes all of my time. big grin

Grand_Moff_Gav
Oh you don't have to read them, its hard these days to find a credible historian who disputes the birth of Jesus.

Utrigita
Because it's a tradition and a oppertunity to show love to you relativs to stress off and enjoy that for even a moment the World seems less chaotic. So it's a religious reason kind of...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Oh you don't have to read them, its hard these days to find a credible historian who disputes the birth of Jesus.

So, do you think that Jesus was born in the winter?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, do you think that Jesus was born in the winter?

Its hard to find a credible historian who says Jesus was born in winter...especially since all the sources suggest it was during winter/summer...what with the mention of lambs...

Kevy2007
Christmas is a religious holiday you see.

Grand_Moff_Gav

Adam_PoE
"Christ a Fiction" Robert M. Price

"Did a Historical Jesus Exist?" Jim Walker

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
"Christ a Fiction" Robert M. Price

"Did a Historical Jesus Exist?" Jim Walker

All the links and quotes etc you need

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
All the links and quotes etc you need

Not only is the language of the entry heavily biased, but it primarily cites the works of Bible scholars.

Moreover, had you bothered to read either of the articles I posted, you would know that the entry in question does not adequately refute either of them.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Not only is the language of the entry heavily biased, but it primarily cites the works of Bible scholars.

Moreover, had you bothered to read either of the articles I posted, you would know that the entry in question does not adequately refute either of them.

It wasn't really the article I wanted you to read...rather the links at the bottom...I also note your first article didn't state than Jesus was non-existent but that the true person of Jesus was now distorted by myth .

Encyclopedia Brittanica supports his existance...so its not just wikipedia.

Try this article,

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
It wasn't really the article I wanted you to read...rather the links at the bottom...I also note your first article didn't state than Jesus was non-existent but that the true person of Jesus was now distorted by myth .

Encyclopedia Brittanica supports his existance...so its not just wikipedia.

Try this article,

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

This article is not helping you.

Nod
Why should we celebrate it?

Because we get gifts and drunk.

The only reason.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nod
Why should we celebrate it?

Because we get gifts and drunk.

The only reason.

thumb up

I also like giving gifts.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This article is not helping you.

I was trying to give you some material to through at me, rather than just giving me links to results of "does didn't exist" or something you typed into google.

However you probabally don't care much either way for this topic and probabally aren't interested in debating it...owell.

heres another link you might enjoy...

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Here on Wiki some people have already debated this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jesus#Historicity_of_Jesus

Adam_PoE

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
My post:



Is a refutation of this post:



Feel free to begin using legitimate sources, i.e. not Wikipedia.

Wikipedia was a middle-source to other reputable sources. There are about five pro and five anti links at the bottom of the page...I just wasn't really wanting to get into a link battle, i doubt you read either of the essays you posted so it wasn't really a rebuttal...especially since one conceded Christ probably existed.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Wikipedia was a middle-source to other reputable sources . . .

A Bible scholar is an authority on the Bible, not whether or not a historical Jesus existed. Therefore, in an argument about whether or not a historical Jesus existed, a Bible scholar is not a reputable source.




Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
. . . i doubt you read either of the essays you posted so it wasn't really a rebuttal...especially since one conceded Christ probably existed.





Which article concedes that Jesus existed?

peejayd
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
AFAIK there were no Christians in the bible. They were reform Judiasm.

* there are Christians in the Bible, Acts 11:26...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm not sure how you can view the mass slaughter of the people of Egypt a symbol of peace.

* the peace was also offered to the Egyptians, they refused, they did not believe Moses... if only they had blood of lamb painted on their houses and believed Moses, that would not have happened...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by peejayd
* the peace was also offered to the Egyptians, they refused, they did not believe Moses... if only they had blood of lamb painted on their houses and believed Moses, that would not have happened...

They weren't offered peace. They were threatened with mass murder.

If Moses had negotiated in a rational manner you'd have a case.

peejayd
* they were offered peace... in fact, Moses asked them for a 3-day worship, then Israelites would come back to Egypt, but they refused... all they did was contest Moses...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by peejayd
* they were offered peace... in fact, Moses asked them for a 3-day worship, then Israelites would come back to Egypt, but they refused... all they did was contest Moses...

So the course of events (vastly simplified)

"Give us three days to worship and we'll come back."
"No, come back now."
"Guess I just have to start killing people."


Or something like that? That's terrorism not negotiation. Hardly an offer of peace. The request certainly wasn't unreasonable but the response to rejection was ridiculously out of proportion.

peejayd
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So the course of events (vastly simplified)

"Give us three days to worship and we'll come back."
"No, come back now."
"Guess I just have to start killing people."

Or something like that? That's terrorism not negotiation. Hardly an offer of peace. The request certainly wasn't unreasonable but the response to rejection was ridiculously out of proportion.

"Give us three days to worship and we'll come back."
"No, come back now." wrong, it's like: "no way!"
"Guess I just have to start killing people." wrong... there are many things Moses did for the Egypt for them to accept

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by peejayd
"Give us three days to worship and we'll come back."
"No, come back now." wrong, it's like: "no way!"
"Guess I just have to start killing people." wrong... there are many things Moses did for the Egypt for them to accept

So he was rude, hardly worth killing over.

Did these things involve talking or were they more plagues? (which would be terrorism again)

peejayd
* no, Moses came peacefully... plagues was last-ditch... so you see how hard-headed the Egyptians were in those days? even after the plagues and the death of all firstborn, they still refused? actually, they let them go but afterwards, went after them?

Deja~vu
Early Christians never exchanged gifts. That was pagan.

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