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IF Im deuling an expert makashi practicioner and we have all the same parameters(speed, hieght, agility, intellegence, force mastery etc..) whats the best style to counter his makashi? o and im light and my opponent is dark if that helps.

Shien/Djem So. The heavy, powerful strikes work well against Makashi.

Yeah, ask Dooku about Anakin.

Any form can beat Makashi, it depends on the users.

Anakin overpowered Dooku because he was in much better physical condition, and even a Force-augmented Dooku couldnt keep up.

Yoda used Ataru, which when coupled with his small size and ridiculously fast movement made Makashi's precise strikes nearly useless against such an opponent.

If both of these forms can defeat it, from an analytical standpoint, any form can. Maybe Shii-Cho and Niman are perhaps the only forms with inadequate specialty to counter in properly.

I'd guess that if a Soresu user could have a tight enough defense against the pinpoint accuracy of a Makashi user, they could win also.

Yes, it depends on the users, but using certain form against one which has weaknesses (against yours) gives you advantage.

As a rule of thumb, in general, Makashi is the ultimate form of lightsaber combat. Assuming that two combatants are of equal strength, speed, experience, and Force mastery and yet one practices Makashi, canon forces us to assume that the one using Makashi will win.

However, Se7in is also correct. Skywalker and Yoda have both defeated a Makashi duelist (the Makashi duelist) utilizing inferior forms. But such victories can be credited to superior Force prowess, speed, or strength, and in no way does it mean that their forms are better.

Sometimes it depends on the user rather than the technique.

...When one user is superior to another.

Mandalore's right. i specified in the terms that the users are equal in every way just using diffrent forms.

If all other things are equal, then the Makashi user likely wins.

Originally posted by Gideon
As a rule of thumb, in general, Makashi is the ultimate form of lightsaber combat. Assuming that two combatants are of equal strength, speed, experience, and Force mastery and yet one practices Makashi, canon forces us to assume that the one using Makashi will win.

However, Se7in is also correct. Skywalker and Yoda have both defeated a Makashi duelist (the Makashi duelist) utilizing inferior forms. But such victories can be credited to superior Force prowess, speed, or strength, and in no way does it mean that their forms are better.

Sometimes it depends on the user rather than the technique.

Great point Gideon. I'm not saying Makashi is even to the rest of the forms in lightsaber combat. It's literally called the epitome of saber-to-saber combat and perfected in an age where lightsaber duels were abundant and the main form of combat.

But I wanted to stress that circumstances in both the environment and combatants make a much larger difference on how effective a form is, especially one with specifications and accuracy like Makashi entails.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
IF Im deuling an expert makashi practicioner and we have all the same parameters(speed, hieght, agility, intellegence, force mastery etc..) whats the best style to counter his makashi? o and im light and my opponent is dark if that helps.

Truly depends on the user.

Let's say you have two Yodas for instance, except one of them is a Master of Makashi rather than Ataru. Have them fight, and the Ataru using Yoda will more than likely win, given how the kinetic energy of the form answers for his weaknesses (small size and lack of reach) and fully utilises the full potential of the awesome speed at his command.

Same goes for someone like Mace Windu, who's Vaapad answers for his inner darkness. A Vaapad wielding Mace Windu would more often than not defeat a Makashi wielding Mace Windu.

A combatant blessed with shoddy footwork would be better suited for Shien, given how it's not too demanding on the attribute.

Considering the other guy is Dark and you are Light, Vapaad.

i think the only form truly incapable of defeating makashi is form zero. But seriously, i think that makashi is just not that great. It has such a strong strenth in the prcision and quality of the moves, but comes at such a high cost, as when these moves are blocked, a makshi user may find it difficult to rectify the true potential of their mastered form in the fight. So, if a jedi used form zero, and did not draw their lightsaber ntil absolutely critical, in fact could be a perfect way to counter a makashi master. I guess its hit and miss really.

I would think two neutral force users, one using vaapad, the other makashi, the makashi user would win.

Vaapad shines when they are fighting a heavily saturated dark sider.

It comes down to the user and also how well he/she knows the opponent`s style. In episode 2 Obi and Ani are ineffective against Dooku in part because they were not trained to counter his "archaic" style. Yoda on the other hand knows to exploit the weakness against strong blows.

Mashaki is very saber vs saber oriented so in a sense time spent studying it could be better for learning how to duel. On the other hand I imagine it is one of the harder styles to master. Once you reach a very high level of proficiency things even out.

Originally posted by Mshinu
In episode 2 Obi and Ani are ineffective against Dooku in part because they were not trained to counter his "archaic" style.

No I think it was because Anakin ran towards him like a moron leaving Obi-wan behind him. Individually neither of them was powerful enough or skilled enough yet to take on the likes of Dooku. And Obi-wan knew it! "I can't take Dooku alone!"

Originally posted by Mshinu
Mashaki is very saber vs saber oriented

Right so the best form against it would be a very unorthodox and unpredictable form, and not even fight with a normal sword.

So say Maul's version of Juyo and fighting with a Saber staff would most likely be very effective against a Pure Makashi user.

Why do people argue styles? It's about the individual.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Shien/Djem So. The heavy, powerful strikes work well against Makashi.

True. But the opponents were hardly equal. It was the best set-up possible for Djem So demonstrations. Old guy whose body is feeling the years and whose muscle tone is less than ideal but with a mastering of makashi that is ingrained in the muscles themselves vs a young powerful and experienced warrior in the prime of his life whose physique is rather buff.

Strong youngman vs old guy. Pretty much the perfect set-up.

Style against style? Makashi and Djem So are equal in usefulnes.

Juyo is the best style period as long as you dont leave yourself vulnerable to mental attacks and such.

I said that almost three years ago, you *****!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I think it was because Anakin ran towards him like a moron leaving Obi-wan behind him. Individually neither of them was powerful enough or skilled enough yet to take on the likes of Dooku. And Obi-wan knew it! "I can't take Dooku alone!"

I said "in part". They would still be overpowered and outskilled if they knew the other style. However the novelization clearly describes Dooku`s style as largely forgotten and Obi/Ani not being able to adapt to it without spending too much energy.



The saber staff might be very good here since the longer grip gives leverage and potentially stronger blows (which Makashi is said to be weak against). Lightsabers don`t weigh much after all.

On the other hand, if saber staffs were more widely used back when Makashi was created the style might include defense against them. I have no idea if they were, Exar Kun made the first one didn`t he?

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Shien/Djem So. The heavy, powerful strikes work well against Makashi.

Actually Dooku had no problem against Anakin's Shien.. It was his Djem So that caused him problems..

But even that one on one Dooku could have handled.. What really defeated Dooku was Anakin's raw power.. It was too much power for him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually Dooku had no problem against Anakin's Shien.. It was his Djem So that caused him problems..

But even that one on one Dooku could have handled.. What really defeated Dooku was Anakin's raw power.. It was too much power for him. Different takes on the same style you ignorant sonnuvabitch.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually Dooku had no problem against Anakin's Shien.. It was his Djem So that caused him problems..

But even that one on one Dooku could have handled.. What really defeated Dooku was Anakin's raw power.. It was too much power for him. You're cool.

Dooku's Makashi wasn't countered by too much kinetic energy, it was countered by Anakin's unparalleled and inhuman Force powers. Anakin in that state of mind, channeling the amount of Force power he was, would have defeated anyone regardless of their style. He was faster, stronger, and more powerful than any form could handle.

Makashi by nature is designed to counter opponents who are stronger than you, it isn't by nature designed to counter a nuclear bomb going off in your face.

Anakin was not only stronger than Dooku, he was so fast Dooku couldn't even physically see him. Dooku had to expend his force reserves just to sense and predict where he would be, no form would have saved Dooku from that sort of speed and power.

This is all seriously overblown.

The real Dooku, Legends Dooku, had no problems with anyone bar Anakin who is probably the strongest duelist in history before accounting for the temporary darkside amp.

The Count has effectively ragdolled almost everyone he's come across anyway so none of this matters.

Makashi is the best style unless you're a midget like Yoda.

I always found Djem So to be the most reliable style. Excellent offence and defence.

Yeah Niman and Djem So are the only styles that should even be considered.

I suppose Makashi too if it's rare in your era.

Not Niman if we're talking about serious dueling. Unless you use a sort of Juyo version of Niman like Exar Kun.