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all out.

Hard to say since both were really good swordsmen, but I'd say Malak because of superior Force powers and matching saber skills.

I'd go with Malak myself. Stunning both Bastilla and Carth at once, and absolutely destroying two Jedi with his force powers alone on the Star Forge, and I'm thinking he takes it.

Originally posted by NateGreySummers
I'd go with Malak myself. Stunning both Bastilla and Carth at once, and absolutely destroying two Jedi with his force powers alone on the Star Forge, and I'm thinking he takes it.

I don't see how the feat concerning the two Jedi is applicable or relevant since, correct me if I'm wrong, Malak's powers were enhanced by the Star Forge. That would be like me saying that Dooku would win, since he performed the far more impressive feat of bringing Ventress -- a supremely skilled duelist and Force user -- to the brink of death by lifting a single finger.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't see how the feat concerning the two Jedi is applicable or relevant since, correct me if I'm wrong, Malak's powers were enhanced by the Star Forge. That would be like me saying that Dooku would win, since he performed the far more impressive feat of bringing Ventress -- a supremely skilled duelist and Force user -- to the brink of death by lifting a single finger.

You can't quantify to what extent the SF helped him Escape so that point is moot. Malak's force abilities are shown to be superior to Dooku's, whether on the leviathan or on the SF. A saber battle is another story.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't see how the feat concerning the two Jedi is applicable or relevant since, correct me if I'm wrong, Malak's powers were enhanced by the Star Forge.

See Darth Sexy. Also, we don't even know whether Malak only remains powered up on the Star Forge, and what he does to Bastilla and Carth happens off of the Star Forge anyway.



Her ability as a duelist is irrelevant, and I really fail to see how Assaj Ventress is even approaching Bastilla's level of force ability, not to mention that Malak was able to dominate another being at the exact same time, and he hardly had to expend much effort either. Simple hand gesture IIRC. Not to mention that Dooku's attack caught Ventress completely off guard (meaning she wouldn't have been able to apply a defence as quickly as she would when prepared) and he was being powered up by the darkside presence on Vjun. How exactly is what Dooku did even on the same level?

Originally posted by NateGreySummers


See Darth Sexy. Also, we don't even know whether Malak only remains powered up on the Star Forge, and what he does to Bastilla and Carth happens off of the Star Forge anyway. Ok, he stunned an average force user at best and he stunned a non force user which anybody can easily stun.

It wouldn't matter if he stunned or attacked a force user whom does not put up a resistance or a defence does it? But the fact remains that he WAS empowered on the star forge and only in the star forge.

Hell malak was already described to have great strength in the force outside the star forge.



Originally posted by NateGreySummers

not to mention that Malak was able to dominate another being at the exact same time, and he hardly had to expend much effort either. Simple hand gesture IIRC. Not to mention that Dooku's attack caught Ventress completely off guard (meaning she wouldn't have been able to apply a defence as quickly as she would when prepared) and he was being powered up by the darkside presence on Vjun. How exactly is what Dooku did even on the same level? And here you in a way back up what i have just claimed, getting caught off guard. Did bastila put up a defence? Did bastila show any sign of resistance?

Bastila is a weakling when compared to malak

Force wise id give it to malak. Saber wise dooku beats him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You can't quantify to what extent the SF helped him Escape so that point is moot. Malak's force abilities are shown to be superior to Dooku's, whether on the leviathan or on the SF. A saber battle is another story.

We're going to have to disagree, I'm afraid.

First, let me begin by saying that the point clearly isn't moot. Both NateGreySummers (a potential alias for Sith'ari/Nebaris, but that is very much irrelevant) and yourself have confirmed that the Star Forge did enhance Darth Malak's Force powers, although no one can be sure to what extent. That alone, however, does not mitigate the fact that his powers were being augmented -- and until you or I can discern to what extent, you cannot automatically claim that Malak is clearly the superior Force user.

Likewise, we could turn this question around on you two and ask you to substantiate and quantify the powers of the two Jedi that he killed; as Galaktus has pointed out, I'm not impressed with his stunning of Bastilla Shan or Carth Onasi on any true level.

And finally, Nate, the actions performed by Dooku on Vjun very much apply to Malak's own situation. We know that his powers were enhanced on Vjun, but can you tell me to what degree?

I'm afraid that you'll need to offer a bit more reasoning to make any convincing argument that Malak > Dooku in Force mastery, let alone that he'd win a fight with "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and "a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith".

Well the point i tried to make is while it may seem that attacking a non force user with lightning or some other attacks may not be that impressive but using the force to lift them and fling them like ragdolls is another thing, weather its on a force user who does not resist/defend or against a non force user hence why i listed some of vaders feats which are not performed on force users which can be deemed impressive. Correct me if im wrong please thanks.

As for malak so called wtf owning the 2 jedi's on the star forge, there is a list of circumstances
1)Malak was obviously empowered to an unknown degree
2) The 2 jedi would have at the least fought through the star forges defences
-droids
-soldiers
-turrets
-internal defences
-dark jedi

And the end result of them is meeting malak weakened hence them not being able to put up a defence, but even if they did it wouldn't matter as we have seen according to path of destruction , a superior force user can smash through the force defences of an inferior jedi.

Originally posted by Gideon
And finally, Nate, the actions performed by Dooku on Vjun very much apply to Malak's own situation. We know that his powers were enhanced on Vjun, but can you tell me to what degree?

Well Vjun is described as steeped in the darkside, and Dooku makes a note about how much his powers have increased with the darkside presence of the world. The Star Forge, on the other hand, was primarily used to create ships and droids, and the only powerup which has been noted in every source regarding the matter, is the powerup which Malak received from the captive Jedi. Hell, Malak doesn't even elaborate on how the Star Forge was even powering him up; that it could is only ever mentioned once IIRC, by Bastilla, and not Malak.

Bottom line, logic would point to Dooku' power up being greater than Malak's, not to mention that Malak does perform something equally as impressive when not on the Star Forge, and I've seen nothing to suggest what Dooku does as even comparable.



Well we don't really know enough about Malak to truly provide a case for him, and Dooku could be more powerful, but given the way that Malak dominates multiple force users effortlessly not once, but twice, leads me to believe that his force prowess, especially when used offensively, is greater than Dooku's, who mostly catches his opponents off guard.

Btw, those statements you provided are actually simply based on public perception, they're not actually infallible.

This is basically how it goes:

"This is Dooku:



This is the public story.

This is the story that even Dooku, in his weaker moments, almost believes.

The truth is more complicated."

Dooku can't be considered all of that based only upon public perception within the Star Wars World.

Like Sexy said, a saber fight is another story.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Ok, he stunned an average force user at best

Average force user at best? Did we play the same game? Virtually everyone who comments on Bastilla references her considerable ability. She's noted as having great strength in the force, her ability with battle meditation is shown to be legendary, and after turning dark, when confronted with Revan, is able to stun both Jolee and Juhani at the same time (the makers of KotOR are clearly fans of that power) without applying any real effort.

Also, nobody has even managed to provide a case for Assaj Ventress being in the same league as Bastilla. The same Assaj who never displays anything noteworthy with the force, and who was never renowned for being adept with it.



The point is, he did both at the same time. Of course if he only stunned Carth, than the feat would be worthless, but i's the fact that he was able to stun both at the same time.



Well Bastilla would have certainly have put up a defence, given the situation.



We don't know that for sure, nor do we know if the enhancement was anything to jump up and down about. As far as the intent of the gamemakers are concerned, the only difference that they went out of their way to point out was the fact that Malak could drain the captive Jedi of their energy on the Star Forge.

His actual power level appears to remain the same.



Indeed.



The situation would have called for it (being in the presence of a hostile Sith Lord who could commence an attack any second) and Bastilla would quite frankly have to be one hell of a dumbass not to.



Force resistance or force shields are intangible, and don't appear to ever be performed with hand gestures.



Possibly, but that only really cements Malak's obvious high level of power.



Likely.

Originally posted by Gideon
We're going to have to disagree, I'm afraid.

First, let me begin by saying that the point clearly isn't moot. Both NateGreySummers (a potential alias for Sith'ari/Nebaris, but that is very much irrelevant) and yourself have confirmed that the Star Forge did enhance Darth Malak's Force powers, although no one can be sure to what extent. That alone, however, does not mitigate the fact that his powers were being augmented -- and until you or I can discern to what extent, you cannot automatically claim that Malak is clearly the superior Force user.

Likewise, we could turn this question around on you two and ask you to substantiate and quantify the powers of the two Jedi that he killed; as Galaktus has pointed out, I'm not impressed with his stunning of Bastilla Shan or Carth Onasi on any true level.
Why would I have to substantiate the powers of the jedi? If we go by the game, he force chokes two jedi while talking to Revan, and then throws out force lightning and a saber throw. His force abilities are shown to be superior to Dooku's in every way. He had MORE darkside abilities and MORE knowledge as stated in what, the DSSB? I wouldn't doubt the SF boosted his abilities to the point where dooku would have no chance in a force battle, but even without it Malak's broader knowledge should be sufficient enough to take out dooku.


Unfortunately that quote you keep using about Dooku doesn't exactly state anything Escape, so I don't know why you persist. Dooku hasn't shown anything on the level of Malak in terms of force mastery, so it's on you to show what Dooku has done to put him on par with Malak.

I'm going with Dooku on this one.

Originally posted by NateGreySummers


Average force user at best? Did we play the same game? Virtually everyone who comments on Bastilla references her considerable ability.
Considerable ability in battle meditation.
Originally posted by NateGreySummers

She's noted as having great strength in the force,
By whom? All i recall is she being affirmed for her BM.
Originally posted by NateGreySummers

her ability with battle meditation is shown to be legendary,
She waqs gifted with it, being masterful in one power alone does not dispute strength in the force, ESPCIALLY after how easily malak tooled her, hell she couldn't even throw her lightsaber properly to cut off malaks arm.
Originally posted by NateGreySummers

and after turning dark, when confronted with Revan, is able to stun both Jolee and Juhani at the same time (the makers of KotOR are clearly fans of that power) without applying any real effort. Uh ok, she stunned 2 jedi, wow then i guess this makes exar kun a god because he stunned tens and thousands of people without any effort either.
Originally posted by NateGreySummers

Also, nobody has even managed to provide a case for Assaj Ventress being in the same league as Bastilla. The same Assaj who never displays anything noteworthy with the force, and who was never renowned for being adept with it. Im not even making a case for assaji as i do not like that character.


Originally posted by NateGreySummers

The point is, he did both at the same time. Of course if he only stunned Carth, than the feat would be worthless, but i's the fact that he was able to stun both at the same time.
Ok then i get your point because i do agree with you, choking/stunning or what ever against multiple opponents force user or not is impressive to me at least.

Originally posted by NateGreySummers

Well Bastilla would have certainly have put up a defence, given the situation.
And so would mace, but again it does not matter weather she did as bastila is bantha fodder when compared to malak. A superior force user will break through a far more inferior opponents defences.

Originally posted by NateGreySummers

We don't know that for sure, nor do we know if the enhancement was anything to jump up and down about. As far as the intent of the gamemakers are concerned, the only difference that they went out of their way to point out was the fact that Malak could drain the captive Jedi of their energy on the Star Forge.

His actual power level appears to remain the same.
Ill concede this point then.



Originally posted by NateGreySummers

The situation would have called for it (being in the presence of a hostile Sith Lord who could commence an attack any second) and Bastilla would quite frankly have to be one hell of a dumbass not to. Already answered.


Originally posted by NateGreySummers

Force resistance or force shields are intangible, and don't appear to ever be performed with hand gestures. And so is battle meditation, yet we see a blueish-sparklish aura around bastila in the star forge when she performs her BM. Now why did that happen? They (gamemakers) made it in a way where we could see the ability manifest its self and if bastila really did put up a defence, i don't see why they shouldn't put it as a blue shield as luke skywalker did against an ATAT in dark empire.

Originally posted by NateGreySummers

Possibly, but that only really cements Malak's obvious high level of power.
Malak sure is high, so is vader , bane , revan and some others too. Forgive my fanboyism.

Originally posted by NateGreySummers

Likely. Guess ill stop here

Her bio for one. It makes note of her strength in the force, ability with battle meditation/willpower, general talent and renown among the Jedi and Sith. It's pretty clear she was an exceptional Jedi. BM was simply her greatest talent; not her only one.



It generally does, given all techniques stem from the same power source, and the user's affinity with it. You get the odd anomaly, but as is evident from her bio, she was an all around great talent.



Yes, and Malak was an exceptional Sith Lord. Bastilla was only brought up to substantiate just how powerful he really was.



So... she's not good at throwing things...?

In all seriousness, there appears to have been nothing wrong with what she did, Malak's armour just appears to have been lightsaber resistant. Most likely cortosis or sith alchemical armour.



...

As far as SW is concerned, Exar Kun pretty much is a God. Arguably one of the most powerful force users there's ever been. He's completely out of the league of any of the people mentioned in this thread.

However, when dealing with low tier characters such as Dooku, dominating two beings, one of them a gifted force user, at the same time with ease is a very impressive feat.



Not disagreeing here; the point I'm making is that Bastilla is an exceptionally powerful jedi, and Malak breaking through her defences, whilst simultaneously doing the same to another being, with ease, suggests an extremely high level of power. Dooku's never shown to overpower multiple beings at once (when there's a Jedi involved) and he mostly just catches his opponents off guard.



The gamemakers likely don't even know anything about force defence beyond their given game mechanics, and using illustrations for certain abilities doesn't mean they'd have to do the same for every ability. Force defence is mostly passive as well (meaning there wouldn't be any added visuals for the same reason that there aren't for abilities like precognition), or something that's activated with a prolonged effect (for example, in PoD, Kas'im instructs his apprentices to initiate the force shield ability at the start of every battle, and states that they would remain in effect throughout. Bastilla likely would have had her defences up as soon as she entered the Leviathan). The point remains that Bastilla wouldn't have left herself open in the presence of a hostile Sith Lord. It's silly to even consider that.



Different mediums follow different rules.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why would I have to substantiate the powers of the jedi? If we go by the game, he force chokes two jedi while talking to Revan, and then throws out force lightning and a saber throw. His force abilities are shown to be superior to Dooku's in every way. He had MORE darkside abilities and MORE knowledge as stated in what, the DSSB? I wouldn't doubt the SF boosted his abilities to the point where dooku would have no chance in a force battle, but even without it Malak's broader knowledge should be sufficient enough to take out dooku.

Because "megapwning!!1!" two random Jedi isn't sufficient basis for making the claim that he is in any way superior to Count Dooku, unless you can prove that the feat is unquestionable in terms of Force mastery and control. Zannah managed to break the necks of two Jedi as an untrained child; are we to assume, that at that point, she'd pwn Malak Dooku at the same time? The stronger a Force-user, the stronger their Force defense is.



Unfortunately, it does. That quote, taken from a G-canon source, permenantly cements Dooku's rank among the greatest and most powerful Jedi to have ever existed. The omniscient narrator then points out that he's an even greater Lord of the Sith.



Excuse me? In his apparent urge to enact Force Fellate on Darth Malak, someone here has forgotten the burden of proof clause. You and NateGreySummers made the claim that Malak > Dooku in Force mastery. You are the one who has to provide me with the proof. Get to it.

Not true
At one point Dooku Force chokes,force electrocutes,telekinetically lifts, retrieves a lightsaber and talks all at the same time in one of th CW comics ( I think it was against Quinlan Vos, actually, a very strong Jedi). Clearly this puts his skills on par with Malak.
However, Malak is probably stronger though as Jedi were better back then. Killed two jedi who were strong enough to make it through the Star Forge