Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I feel the Phoenix Respect thread should be redone, since the other was filled with unwanted spam. Special warm thanks goes to Galaticstorm (Original Respect Thread) and Aza Chorn (contribution to Giraud respect thread).

I suppose we shall cover one avatar or character at a time.
But most certainly it will follow this order

Jean
616 Feats
What If

Rachael
616 Feats
What If

Giruad
Respect the Phoenix
Other

The Phoenix Power Set.
Control matter on an atomic level.
Energy manipulator.
Tap into vast energies, denying life for future generations
Manipulate Time
Manipulate Reality
Revive Characters
Controls its own cosmic energy
Vast levels of Telepathy
Telekinetic Godhood
Senses are expanded down to its components (thanks to Telekinetic Godhood)
A certain level of Omniscience, thanks to the Phoenix memories.


As far as collateral damage, we have seen the Phoenix do;
Atomizing an individual
City wide destruction
Planetary destruction.
Solar System Destruction
Galaxy Destruction
Universal Destruction

Its best feat.
Total atomic control of the Universe, through Telekinesis (in the White Hot Room Only).

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/a/ac/Phoenix_Force_002.jpg/558px-Phoenix_Force_002.jpg


What is the Phoenix Force?
Apparently its an multiversal entity, that resides within the M’Kraan crystal (nexus of realities).
Within it, is the “White Hot Room” which Phoenix Avatars can enter and do “Phoenix Work”.

Multiversal you say?
Yes the Force is multi-versal, the force manifest itself across countless realities in efforts to find a suitable host. And ultimately perform “Phoenix Work”.

Phoenix Work, what is it?
Well it’s a number of things, intervening potential threat (it could range from planetary to universal), or anything that might stop the progression of evolution. But ultimately it comes down to incite the cycle of death/rebirth of the universe itself.

So each avatar holds the power of a Multiverse?
No, not exactly. Though they become the host of a manifest Multiversal Entity. Their range of authority, control does not exceed its universes level (within its designated reality). You see each PF Avatar authority does not carry, over from ware the Phoenix originally manifested on. However, we have seen instances where it held control over two realities (616 and 15104), Save the universe from destruction (incidentally retconed to Multiverse), and usurp control of other Phoenix Avatars (Recent What If).

Can the Phoenix Force be killed?
Yes and No. Yes you can kill the avatar and apparently the Manifested Force itself, but the Phoenix Force would just resurrected itself (and a good chance the Avatar would resurrect as well, if the Force chooses to). However its my own theory that in order to permanently kill the Manifestation. You would have to kill the Phoenix Force entity that resides in the White Hot Room. A hard task, because the White Hot Room exists outside the Multiverse. And attempting to breach in, would mean engaging the M’Kraan Crystal Guardians, Nightmare Field, and the countless Avatars residing in the room of creation.

So ware would she be in a match?
That’s a tricky question. One minute a planetary stroke subdues her by the hands of Xorn, next minute the Phoenix is seen wiping out Solar System with Cosmic Level beings. The Phoenix Rage or confrontation could escalate to universal destruction.

Her power finite or limitless?
Good question, it seems that outside the White Hot Room. The Phoenix has a finite amount (limit) of power/energy. This is why we have several instances of her draining energy from viable sources. However it is later stated, and confirmed that if she wishes. She could tap energy from future generations and deny them existence (Galactus - Excalibur volume 1 issue #61).

http://popcultureheroines.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/jeangreyendsong.jpg

White Phoenix of the Crown ?
Yes she is the most unique of all the other Avatars. Because she is not the host or an avatar. Her mutation lead to become one with the manifested Phoenix Force.

Note: Food For thought, originally Phoenix was suppose to be psyche (personification) of Jean herself, and not a separate entity. In other words the Phoenix Force was Jeans new personality, to signify how she has now unleashed her dormant Omega level potential. But that was changed shortly after.
The authors comment on this, when they interviewed themselves in the uncensored (non cannon) release “Phoenix: The Untold Story”.

You can find the official Bio here:
http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce18cl.jpg
http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce28cr.jpg

Anyhow following the retconed events. The Phoenix manifested itself to Jean in X-Men #100.
But you don’t really see her strut her stuff until X-Men #105. Ware Jean proceeds to lay the smack down on Firelord (Herald of Galactus).
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Its in X-Man #108, that you encounter Jean feat of saving the Multiverse (retconed from universe).
By recharging the Stasis field (lattice Barrier), keep note this Lattice is made of anti-energy field. Yet Jeans energy managed to replenish it.
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Here is an interesting feat. Her senses have expanded to such degree, that it is intone down to energy and atomic reading.
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What we have here is control on a molecular level.
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Her telepathy is enough to bypass telepathic shielding.
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Phoenix vs. Emma Frost
A decent match, it also shows that the Phoenix can drain energy and the life force.
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Realizing she was being manipulated. She proceeds to mind rape Master Mind. By endowing him with the cosmic knowledge Phoenix carries.
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Here the Dark Phoenix is introduced properly. And proceeds to hand over the X-Mens ass, so they can kiss em. You see a verge of multitasking and array of abilities (Turning of mutant powers, mind sweep, TK assault)
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Dark Phoenix Continued. Uncanny X-Men 129-137]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/9/92/Dark_Phoenix_002.jpg/331px-Dark_Phoenix_002.jpg
After Phoenix is done toying with the X-Men. She takes flight to the cosmos.
This is the first and only time they get a reading on the Dark Phoenix power level. Mr. Fantastic reading indicate its energy level is on par with Galactus.
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In the mist of interstellar flight. She creates her own “Stargate”. And proceeds to consume a Sun neighboring a planet.
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Phoenix consumes the Sun energy, the consequence of this. Is the Sun going Supernova, destroying the neighboring planet. As you can clearly see, Phoenix was in the dead center of the Supernova.
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Shi’Ar Imperial Battle Cruiser (not your average, space ship) picks up on the situation. And proceeds to engage.
Phoenix makes short work of them.
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This scan shows to prove that The, Shi’Ar ship she destroyed was top of the line.
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When she comes, back she shows of molecular readjustment. Turns the plant into crystals. Moments later she gets a psi inhibiter planted in her. And a Rematch with the X-Men, Jean is handicapped.
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Well Phoenix kicked the X-Mens ass, overloading the psi inhibiter. She is about to snap back into her senses, when Xavier intervenes and another Psi battle commences.
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Note: yes Xavier succeeds…“With” Jeans help. Jean is already a Telepath of the first order, and was previously seen making short work of another respectable Telepath (Emma Frost). Do you really think Xavier could have pulled it off alone?

The Phoenix starts to manifest once again in New X-Man 120. And its during this run, that a new law is established. Now Jean and the Phoenix are truly merged and one of the same.

Note - previously the Phoenix Force, would claim that it would bond with its avatar it chose to. But the avatar had no say, if the Force decided to leave. Now it is shown that Jean willingly can merge back with the Force, regardless if the Force thinks it has left its host. Again this is because now they ware one in the same.

X-Man 120
Jean threatens to tear apart its enemies molecule by molecule.
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New X-Men 128
Two things to look out for (1) Definition of Telekinetic Godhood, (2) Precognition.

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New X-Men 133
Jean stops the bullet in mid air, and can analyze the object to a molecular level.
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New X-Men 139
Remember not even Telepaths of the first order are a match for the Phoenix.
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5325/95kz0.jpg

New X-Men 141
Telekinetically fuses molecules back together of Miss Dear Emma Frost.
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New X-Men 148
Jean attempts to explain what it means to wield the Phoenix. You have to keep in mind, that avatars are limited to how much self awareness they have over the Force. The greater the self awareness, the grander scale they can wield the Force. Interesting comment from logan is that, Jean could make her own universe and set it strait. However (and I agree to this), Phoenix is not about bending reality or creating one to its mind set, even if its within her power set.
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4922/newxmen148pyrate11ik1.jpg
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And this is how Logan decides to ease Jean death..but ends up liberating the Force through death.
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New X-Men 150
Ah the dreaded issue where Xorn kills the Phoenix (supposedly). Anyhow Jean comments she build a ship by manipulating energy on a molecular level. This is using the sun energy to power, the left over scraps of the asteroid (now molded into space craft). Jean last comment is she has no clue, how long the Phoenix will permit her to live.
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Note Issue 150, ends with 150 years into the direct future of 616 continuality. Remember, the Phoenix lives to perform a task. And as it has bin previously established, willingly it can exist outside time and space manipulate time and affirm a certain level of precognition. I could interpret the significance of why Xorn managed “Kill” Jean, even though Jean has withstood worse. However, I will just let you draw your own conclusion with the given evidence, back history and material to back track.
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Interesting reference, Jean/Phoenix makes reference to Here Comes Tomorrow, in X-Men Phoenix End Song #5.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4958/page16lk3.jpg

In New X-Men #151-154.
Sublime seeks to void the world of genetic evolution. And accomplish these goals, with the help of the Phoenix.

Jean Atomizes an entire civilization.
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http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6741/15304nw4.jpg

Previously we see Hank, inject itself with Phoenix blood, and grant himself telekinetic Godhood. His senses have expanded, matter control to his slightest whim, able to turn of X gene etc..Yet Jean had no problem bypassing those abilities, and extract Sublime from Hank.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5700/18tm3.jpg

Big Power I says
But that’s not all. Jean decides to amputate the alternate universe, diverged from the 616 time line. She not only holds the universe in the palm of her hands, but can Telekinetically control it.
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The significance of this feat is impressive. It goes to show that when you have total control of the universe. You not only control, present events but the timelines itself and apply an event adjustment.

Interesting Reference - Jeans actions sets 616 course in a different path so “Here Comes Tomorrow” (Reality 15104) never takes place (it becomes instead a distinct parallel reality, breached from 616 reality).
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5617/15423zw3.jpg

Phoenix End Song #5
Jean is not just an avatar, Jean has bonded with the Phoenix manifestation. They are one and the same.
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4765/page14xp5.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7600/page15kx1.jpg

Then we have the weapon Shiar was about to use. A device that creates Black Holes.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/421/page21ph3.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8995/page23qc0.jpg

^^ Yet Jean was able to react fast enough to counter the black hole (with the some emotional support.)

Phoenix Warsong
PW, takes right after Phoenix Endsong. Stepford Cuckoos; Celeste,
Mindee, and Phoebe (Now 3 in 1) become the new selected host for the Phoenix Force. However, they are only wielding a mere fragment of the Force itself. None the less, they are still considered a planetary threat.

As it was established preciously. Avatars of the Force, gain natural augmented abilities, along with receiving new abilities and wielding cosmic energies.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8919/xmenphoenixwarsong1021qp7.jpg
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List of new feats thanks to the PF
New TK abilities
Enhanced Strength
Flight
Regeneration
Layering new cells over dead bones
Isolated Time Freeze

What If Volume 1 #27 “Phoenix Hadn’t Died?”
In this what if (prior to the retcon), Jean lives but has a psychic lobotomy done to her brain. This is in effort to remove the parts of her brain that accesses her mutant powers. Well it’s not enough, and her power begins to increase.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/449/whatif2706uj2.jpg


Well Galactus is on his way, and he brings his side kick Herald Terrax.
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Terrax lives up to his name and owns the X-Men. Know its Jean turn�She melts his cosmic axe, and undoes his cosmic imbued body and power. Yes she undid Galactus own creation. OWNAGE!!
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8093/whatif2716yi8.jpg
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Galactus vs. Phoenix. But it was a Hungry Galactus�well it was a relatively weak Phoenix (remember lobotomy on the brain).
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Similar to Galactus, the Phoenix needs sustenance to substain herself. She can draw it from planetoids (not just the sun or other forms of energy).
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The Sentinel Threat, are really a non factor.
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More nourishment from another sun.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7127/whatif2727jr8.jpg

And the X-Men do not approve, but the darker side of Jean reawakens. X-Men vs. Phoenix Rematch.
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At the end, in a fit of rage. Jean becomes power drunk, and unleashes her fury destroying the entire universe.
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What If, Volume 2 #32 & 33.
What If, Volume 2 #32 “What if Phoenix Hadn’t Died” part 1.
The subplot is the same, as the original what if. But the retcon is applied

Note Retcons:
Phoenix is a separate cosmic entity, and Jean is just a mutant.
The Phoenix made a cacoon, to make save Jean. And took a portion of Jeans soul, and with it made an identical shell of it to live as a human.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/206/whatif3223fv1.jpg
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What If Volume 2 #33 What if Phoenix Hadn’t Died” part 2.
In short, Shadow King in control of Mastermind, got a hold of Rachael and killed Jean. This was so, Rachael could inherit the Phoenix Force. He did succeed, however this Jean was just an animated shell with a portion of Jeans Soul. And the Phoenix Force can not die, so it resurrects inhabiting the force.


Rachael vs. Jean
There is a decent showings here: it shows that that Phoenix can accelerate or decelerate the aging process.
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And here she takes on the Sentinels with the help of the X-Men (For some reason, this fight cries out PIS).
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The Sentinels Mock the Phoenix for not having the power to destroy them. He response: So I just use yours.
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Note: The power scrambler that worked on all super powered heroes (and villans), did not work on the Phoenix.
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Rachael Summer Grey
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Well what can I say about my girl Rachael. In her run with Excalibur we find out that phoenix do in fact wield the power to end cosmos (Statement from Galactus, not challenged by Death, The Watcher, or Roma Excalibur #25). This is later restated in Excalibur volume 1 issue 50, during the fight with Necrom. However you must keep in mind, having the power and wielding it are two completely different aspects. And an being an avatar is not an easy job. You hold much burden on your soldiers. You hold eons of knowledge thanks to the memories of the Phoenix. Various universal laws, and rules that are hard to grasp by mere mortals (referring to Master Mind). Incalculable power, that no mortal is meant to handle regardless of how prepared you think your are (referring to Necrom).

We also find out that there is a learning curve, to grasping the Phoenix Force. This is demonstrated by how Rachael begins from having trouble with dealing with Thor level being - to Obliterating Solar System in the wake of her match against established cosmic characters.

In Excalibur 25 (volume 1). We see Rachael handle Nove (herald of Galactus)…twice. Knocks her, strait to the moon.
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Pissed off, Nova attempts to return the favor. Only to have Rachael fling her back to Galactus.
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However, Rachael agrees to go forth with Galactus plan to separate her from the Phoenix Force.
She states the encounter is not worth, the potential destruction of earth.

However Galactus arrogance, proves to be costly. You see separating the PF from its Avatar will cost the universe itself. Ending all life through out the universe, by the dieing star (the PF is directly tied in, with the Stars). Even Galactus would place itself in danger. It took the combination of Roma, The Watcher, and Death to talk some sense into him.
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This goes to show, that Phoenix is a cosmic entity that is just as fundamental as Galactus. However this is just one aspect of the importance of the Phoenix.

Excalibur volume 1, issue #50
Rachael vs Necrom. Battle wise, good showings.
Asteroids, and moons are thrown at each other. Planetes are one shotted, and ignited to form a sun. Devastation to an entire Solar System.
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Excalibur volume 1, issue #61

Rachael vs Galactus.
An interesting match, we know that the Phoenix Force is well above a Herald of Galactus. What about a Hungry Galactus? Apparently a league above him as well.

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Excalibur 27
Alfie O'Meagan vs. Rachael
For those who do not know, Alfie is a character with vast physchic powers. And the ability to bend reality.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4492/exc27p12gu0.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5876/exc27p13eq6.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4702/exc27p14af9.jpg
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Excalibur 26
Remember that certain level of Omniscience?
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6752/exc26p11rc5.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5633/exc26p12ht3.jpg



Excalibur 67
Energy manipulation
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7305/excaliber67page18wl4.jpg


Excalibur 71
Rachael is able to propel herself into the future for a few seconds.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9738/excalibur071as7.jpg

Excalibur 73
Repairing the ozone layer on a molecular level.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/28/excalibur073p05ns8.jpg

Askni Rising 1
Plasma weaponry have no effect.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1196/ph01pg03ax9.jpg

What If “X-Men Lost Inferno”
Eventually Rachael goes off to do Phoenix work, and cleanses the evil.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8500/whatifinferno0626lz9.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1880/whatifinferno0627ns2.jpg

What If “Rise and Fall of the Shi’ar Empire”

When Vulcan unexpectedly enters the M’Kran Crystal. He falls into the nightmare field…however he seemingly ascended to the White Hot Room. This is because he becomes the new “Phoenix Force Avatar”. The other Avatars are not content with this happening, and deem Vulcan unfit to be next Avatar. However Gabriel disagrees, and proceeds to seemingly take his powers and kill him (along with the others).
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He obliterates all opposition, the Shi’ar Empire is destroyed in a single strike..you even see planets shatter at the manifested rage from Vulcan. Only Racheal and Havoc survive because they escape through teleportation. They are not sure who or what caused a stargate to seemingly open. They think it was the Phoenix.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3833/whatifdcp0012ir8.jpg
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Vulcan destroyed 1/3 of the annihilation wave along with Annihiuls himself. Nova pleads Ronan to escape. However again, Vulcan destroys the Kree Empire. And The Watchers comment, that the Phoenix “Consumed” a galaxy, it was the 7th galaxy to fall.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2357/whatifdcp0019cd0.jpg

Vulcan engages the X-Men. The match takes place in the island, it was frozen and destroyed to pieces. However it is now alive, and intact. Apparently wielding the PF holds no real limits to what it can do.
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/4479/whatifdcp0023rj6.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6047/whatifdcp0024gm2.jpg

However, he is loosing control. This is because the Phoenix (Jean Grey) is holding back its power.
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/330/whatifdcp0027uz9.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/4193/whatifdcp0029cs1.jpg

Rachael warns Gabriel (thanks to the mind link), that the Phoenix Force reacts poorly to negative emotions. The consequences of losing total control will not only consume himself but the entire “Reality”.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4695/whatifdcp0032ey8.jpg

Finally letting go of rage, and hate. He proceeds to halt his rampage, and except his death.
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/4913/whatifdcp0035zo2.jpg

All the not so cryptic talk, and cryptic actions are revealed. Its none other then Jean Grey.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2406/whatifdcp0037bu1.jpg
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/5710/whatifdcp0040xf1.jpg

Comments: I have to admit I had my doubts, on how Vulcan would wield the PF. Or what kind of PF showings we would see. But just wow, lots of high end collateral damage if your into big fancy destruction. - Id

cool thread

Originally posted by Lumby
cool thread

Ah thanks, I still have a bit more to post. And I still need to hunt down some more comics to complete the respect thread.

These are scans from the most recent Mutant Files. (12-30-2008).
A more complete bio then the one previously posted by myself.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5500/000xe2.th.jpg
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X-Men Forever 01
Well it brings certain revelations, and more questions. But My head hurts and we shall focus more on the revelations. Humanity and Mutants(along with other diverges exhibiting the X- Gene *Thanks to the Celestials*) represent the potential. Eventually some will evolve and replace universal forces. Jean and her relation to the Phoenix are used an example.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8581/xf01pg18mr2.th.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8581/xf01pg18mr2.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/282/xf01pg19sc3.th.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/282/xf01pg19sc3.jpg


X-Man Forever 03
In a conversation with Death, its revealed how the Cosmic Forces initially viewed mankind’s progression. Now that Jean has bonded with Mankind. A Universal Force (Jean as the Phoenix) will see through that mankind will progress in its evolution. If other Forces attempt to halt this progression, Phoenix is the legitimate challenge.
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7839/05zx5.th.jpg
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http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1962/10kg2.jpg

X-Men Forever 06.
Long story short, Stranger wants to usurp control of the future fundamental forces. Or incite human evolution now and control them. Stranger explains/shows and Jean apparently remembers how being the Resurrection Force, will witness mankind’s ascendance to Cosmic Status, and her role as universal Destroyer/Savior.
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Eternity interrupts only to confirm Strangers notation. It uses Galactus survival and Cosmic role only to tie it in directly into humanity eventual progression.
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8783/15vz4.th.jpg
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Ending Note - X-Men Forever ties in many mythos and explanations. However focusing on the Phoenix. It explains its role as Guardian of life and evolutionary progression (which has had several references outside of X-Men Forever. Along with inciting the natural order of universal end and rebirth. Like Eternity, and other Abstracts yet different and unique (Death claims its different from the Cosmic Abstracts). The Phoenix Force itself is a constant as well, a fundamental Universal Force that will live on regardless if the universe lives or dies.

Excalibur #25
To make long story short, Galactus wants separate the force from the host. But the Avatar needs to submitted. Rachael deems a fight unnecessary, since it will escalate to the destruction of the vary planet its trying to defend.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/610/excalibur02519in4.th.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/610/excalibur02519in4.jpg



However, this comes with negative repercussions. The first visible showings are how the Phoenix is directly tied in with the stars. The stars are dieing, due to the separation of the force and the host. Condemning the cosmos to ultimate extinction, bet that takes a toll in Galactus planet hunting days?

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3585/excalibur02520mo3.th.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3585/excalibur02520mo3.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8647/excalibur02521kn6.th.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8647/excalibur02521kn6.jpg

Note - No where is it said, that the machine kills the Phoenix. It seems to permanently extract the Force from the avatar.

Excalibur 52
We learn that the phoenix manifestation holds memories since the dawn of creation.
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1407/excalibur052p10nk9.th.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1407/excalibur052p10nk9.jpg

Excalibur 62
After the revelation that, it would expedite energy from future generation only to deny them existence. It remembers how the Force was directly involved with creation, only to view itself as a cosmic parasite in disgust.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9177/excalibur062p08ea2.th.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9177/excalibur062p08ea2.jpg

Excalibur 63
Conversation with Death
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Excalibur 64
Total Recall.
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A bit of pep talk with the Phoenix. No longer wishing to be directly tied in with human avatar. It grants Rachael its power, yet ascends back to being a Cosmic Force.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3013/excalibur064p05eb1.jpg
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Doing an amazing job, hopefully this thread wont get bogged down with spam as mine was. In fact i'll bring over some of the content of mine to this one.

In one reality, Jeans attraction to Wolverine lead her to choose him in favour of Cyclops:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/614065658.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/614065677.jpg

The reality unfolds in much the same way the original one did up until the battle on the Moon for Jeans life:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/614065754.jpg

His bond with Jean not as long running and strong as the one Jean shared with Cyclops, Wolverine lacks the claming effect required to stop the transformation into Dark Phoenix:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/614065739.jpg

Jean destroys that universe in a single outburst of power.

Yet another example of Jean easily possessing universal destroying power.

Yet more evidence that the Phoenix Force is the ambient energies of creation from which all power within reality is derived from whether directly or indirectly.

In Dr Strange V2 #24 the group of sorcerers from across the timeline called the Creators backed by the power of the Inbetweener built the Cosmic Wheel Of Change:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013401219.jpg

They hoped to use its power to swap their form and essences with those of the stars:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013401260.jpg

The reason being that the stars as stated by Apalla (a star in human form) in Marvel are the source for ALL energy in the universe both scientific and mystical:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013401354.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013401353.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013401431.jpg

In #25 Strange reiterates both the Creators plans and Apallas account saying that stars are the source of all power within reality both mystical and scientific:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013555965.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013560093.jpg

The Creators then use their newfound power to create a new reality:

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Altering the laws of reality to the point that Dr Strange could not use his mystical powers as efficiently as before:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3013560315.jpg

The captions state the stars to be the ultimate source of all energy, electrical, atomical and magical:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3014105437.jpg

The Ancient One who had become one with Eternity had this connection disrupted by the universal alteration wrought by the Creators:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/3014105544.jpg

The Phoenix Force:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213341872.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342113.jpg

“Mother of the stars”

The power behind the stars:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29812591238.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29812591285.jpg

All in line with it being the Big Bang turned sentient:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29815392027.jpg

Good stuff and welcome back GS

Thanks KM.

Good to see it confirmed via the abilities section of the bio that in Here Comes Tomorrow Phoenix did actually manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in the palm of her hand.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanks KM.

Good to see it confirmed via the abilities section of the bio that in Here Comes Tomorrow Phoenix did actually manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in the palm of her hand.

Hush you, or else the non believer will come in and disrupt the flow of this clean and informative respect thread.

Do me a favor If it comes to that, ignore his posts. If you like rebute anything in the old thread.

PS - freaking bio was never needed, the comic itself stated universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanks KM.

Good to see it confirmed via the abilities section of the bio that in Here Comes Tomorrow Phoenix did actually manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in the palm of her hand.

So, it wasn't only orphan (which Mr Master so confidently thought it was), but entire Universe. Was it 616?
I really don't even remember so much about which Universe was it?

Originally posted by Xplosive
So, it wasn't only orphan (which Mr Master so confidently thought it was), but entire Universe. Was it 616?
I really don't even remember so much about which Universe was it?

She amputated the divergent future reality from the main 616 timeline and then materialized 616 in her hand at which point the Phoenix Consciousness referred to her telekinetic control of all of its atoms. (Thats why the updated Jean profile now says that she can manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale, but it also says that her full abilities are unknown. So much for Mr Masters claims that it was a hologram or his second claim that she could only do it in the M'Kraan crystal. She did it with her telekinesis and its officially stated to be within her abilities.) Jean later altered Scotts reaction to Emma.

Originally posted by Xplosive
So, it wasn't only orphan (which Mr Master so confidently thought it was), but entire Universe. Was it 616?
I really don't even remember so much about which Universe was it?
The comic states Orphan Universe, Mr. M tagged it as Baby Universe. One has to understand, where the reference of orphan comes from. Its an entire Universe plucked out from the Multiverse, how could it be an Orphan? Oh…the relationship of Universe and Multiverse.


Basically Jean ascends to the White Hot Room, plucking out the future reality of 15104, and cures it. But the Phoenix Force was not contempt to how things ended up since reality 15104 is the direct future of 616. So Phoenix manifested the entire 616 reality in the palm of her hand, and administers reality adjustment. Scoot leaving the institute never happens, so Here Comes Tomorrow never comes to pass.

1 or 2 things happen when a reality adjustment takes place, to diverge the future.

(1) the prior future, ceases to exist.
(2) It becomes a parallel reality.

2 most likely happens, because shortly after in War Song, Jean makes reference to “Here Comes Tomorrow.”


The thing that makes it silly is, that Phoenix did not have to manifest a universe, and have total control of the atoms within it. Not if it meant, to change the mind of a simple mutant. But its worthy feat (making up for the Xorn crap).

Originally posted by id369
The comic states Orphan Universe, Mr. M tagged it as Baby Universe. One has to understand, where the reference of orphan comes from. Its an entire Universe plucked out from the Multiverse, how could it be an Orphan? Oh…the relationship of Universe and Multiverse.


Basically Jean ascends to the White Hot Room, plucking out the future reality of 15104, and cures it. But the Phoenix Force was not contempt to how things ended up since reality 15104 is the direct future of 616. So Phoenix manifested the entire 616 reality in the palm of her hand, and administers reality adjustment. Scoot leaving the institute never happens, so Here Comes Tomorrow never comes to pass.

1 or 2 things happen when a reality adjustment takes place, to diverge the future.

(1) the prior future, ceases to exist.
(2) It becomes a parallel reality.

2 most likely happens, because shortly after in War Song, Jean makes reference to “Here Comes Tomorrow.”


The thing that makes it silly is, that Phoenix did not have to manifest a universe, and have total control of the atoms within it. Not if it meant, to change the mind of a simple mutant. But its worthy feat (making up for the Xorn crap).



I don't agree with it becoming a parallel universe however as it was clearly withdrawn from the rest of the multiverse and absorbed into the white hot room.

Jean likely remembers the Here Comes Tomorrow future as due to her Phoenix nature she is not bound to time and space, so an alteration to it, especially one exacted by her from outside of time and space would not remove the memory.

Who knows for sure?

Either way it was an excellen story. Bring back Grant Morisson!!

Big feat, but still, even Cosmic Cube, such as the Beyonder is beyond the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Big feat, but still, even Cosmic Cube, such as the Beyonder is beyond the Phoenix Force.

Pre retcon Beyonder debatably, no current continuity Cube Being however has performed a feat beyond the top Phoenix feats, plus its canon that they are below the Celestials who in turn are below the likes of Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Pre retcon Beyonder debatably, no current continuity Cube Being however has performed a feat beyond the top Phoenix feats, plus its canon that they are below the Celestials who in turn are below the likes of Phoenix.

It was never said Celestial are bellow Phoenix Force. Beyonder gave on panel from his own power, PF powers to Rachel and said she could potentially live up to the first Phoenix. She was wielding the full PF powers. It was on panel and in BIOS.
So, feats or no feats, that happened, so considering that, it's already enough that we can give him beyond PF.

And that was Beyonder as Cosmic Cube, so it wasn't Pre-Retcon.

I would like to give PF beyond CC, but what happened on panel and it was also in bios, that cannot be the case.

Originally posted by Xplosive
It was never said Celestial are bellow Phoenix Force. Beyonder gave on panel from his own power, PF powers to Rachel and said she could potentially live up to the first Phoenix. She was wielding the full PF powers. It was on panel and in BIOS.
So, feats or no feats, that happened, so considering that, it's already enough that we can give him beyond PF.

And that was Beyonder as Cosmic Cube, so it wasn't Pre-Retcon.

I would like to give PF beyond CC, but what happened on panel and it was also in bios, that cannot be the case.

It was said the Celestials are below Eternity and Eternity has been said to be below the Phoenix Force.

On panel nowhere was it ever stated that Beyonder gave Rachel the full power of the Phoenix Force. All it said was that he gave her power to accomplish her desires

The bio alone said that. It wasnt confirmed on panel.

Anyway we'll debate this out of this thread if need be, lets not clog up a respect thread.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was said the Celestials are below Eternity and Eternity has been said to be below the Phoenix Force.

Where? On panel. It can be added in this forum as a something really important about PF.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Anyway we'll debate this out of this thread if need be, lets not clog up a respect thread.

Cool.

The Phoenix Force at a universal level is the Big Bang of a reality

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It is the life force of reality:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/12/33713140723.jpg

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The energies of creation which powers life

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29812591238.jpg

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It was reborn in the Big Bang event. It is those energies made sentient.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213341872.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29815392027.jpg

The Phoenix Force perpetuates the cycle of a universe. Its rebirth as the Big Bang sees a universe born and it is the power that brings reality to a close in the natural scheme of things:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/12/35822474849.jpg

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Its prime avatar is Jean Grey and she is sometimes used to perform the Forces work:

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The Phoenix Forces involvement in reality is that which powers the process which sees the abstracts replaced by an evolved humanity:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27415223787.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27415223751.jpg

The Stranger supports this notion put forward by Prosh by visualizing a Phoenix Force engulfed D.N.A chain spiralling from Earth up into space becoming Eternity:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29812235718.jpg

The result of this process, the evolved humanity are said to replace the fundamental forces and take up their positions in the next universal cycle. Phoenix powering this process is therefore in line with on panel statements attributing the end of the cycle to Phoenix.

Eternity says the Force gives life to everything, when it starts the cycle again after the death of the old one:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27415324393.jpg

That is why he calls it the "Resurrection Force" he says its the assurance of life.

The Phoenixes connection to the Big Bang and evolution are even stated in other realities.

In Ultimate X-men it is believed to be the Big Bang:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27414341913.jpg

It is also regarded as a driving force behind evolution:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27414341996.jpg

Further to this evolution connection, it is said to "burn away what doesnt work"

Here Jean exterminates a race she deems to be evolutionary deadends

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The Phoenix is said to have been made to purify, to eradicate things which could impair the creation cycle it determines.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/812545685.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/812545643.jpg


http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1214572514.jpg

The Phoenix usually manifests through death. It is born into reality through death and it exits through death, that is the way of the Phoenix.


Jean Grey became Phoenix after dying on the space shuttle:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213341949.jpg

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The sum and substance of life hope and dreams. All that is is known to Phoenix.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342031.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342087.jpg

The Phoenix interacts with the physical plane from beyond reality via the psyche, while it is the ambient energy of creation, he "Mother of the stars" there is more to it than just what you see in reality

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342113.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342112.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342150.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342259.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1213342242.jpg

Phoenix dies for a purpose, she dies for the purpose of being reborn, for that is the way of the Phoenix. It is born in blood, flame and sacrifice, but always returns:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553982.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553924.jpg

In the scene as she says that she visualizes the future destruction of New York that Xorn would bring about before killing her.

Further to the point, death is the way through which Phoenix is reborn into reality and the way it exits it. Jean initially became Phoenix after dying and death always has and always will be the path it takes to manifesting. Wolverine released Jeans Phoenix self by killing her:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812455482.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812455410.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812455489.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29211200572.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29211200559.jpg



She had to die to come back; it is the way of the Phoenix. She also states that she doesn’t know how long the Consciousness will let her stay around; in the same issue she would later be killed by Xorn.

Rachel brings life to an entire barren world by supercharging the worlds life force which had bonded with Meggan

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1217535175.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1217535246.jpg

In another reality, Phoenix stomps Dormammu in seconds:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1218010793.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1218010857.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1218010838.jpg

Being a Phoenix an wielder of the Phoenix Force is stated to be the "ultimate mutation" the pinnacle of evolution. A power of a Phoenix is unparallelled telekinesis to give complete and total control over matter and energy at a phenomenal scale. ("Telekinetic Godhood"

Jean as Phoenix perceives things beyond surface level right down to the component parts which compose matter and energy:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/3511224166.jpg



Throughout New X-men Jeans telekinesis consistently grew as the Phoenix within began to manifest once again.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553826.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553853.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553864.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553949.jpg

It expands until it becomes more than just an expression of her thoughts physically but until Jeans mind becomes in touch with all her surroundings.

Her telekinesis becomes in sync with matter right down to its component parts:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/812545470.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/812545477.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/812545519.jpg

Jean gains total control of matter down to the molecular level allowing her to generate any energy, shape or create any matter:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29211200572.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29211200559.jpg

Rachel hears a psychic cry from baby Nathan(Cable) and flys off in a burst of energy to rescue him:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/13711150962.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/13711150996.jpg

Thinking about her brother, Rachel subconsciously recreated Kitty in his image as she flew off:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/13711150978.jpg

The others claim how that that was a facet of the original Phoenix's(Jean) power, to rearrange reality around her to coincide with her conscious and subconscious desires:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/13711263068.jpg

Can I post some classic pics of Phoenix.

BTW: this is a good thread; a good phoenix respect thread, best one by far.

Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
Can I post some classic pics of Phoenix.

BTW: this is a good thread; a good phoenix respect thread, best one by far.



Go for it, I have Storm Phoenix. But I am afraid of posting it.

Hmmm I can see the trouble, perhaps if you post just a few...

Originally posted by id369
Hush you, or else the non believer will come in
and disrupt the flow of this clean and informative respect thread.
You might've noticed I never touched your thread my boy,
but don't hink I didn't notice this subtle allusion.
Originally posted by id369
Do me a favor If it comes to that, ignore his posts.
I could care less about the exaggerations and mis-interpretations taking place in here potna,
but now that this biatch put my name into it,
it's time to clear things up.
Originally posted by id369
PS - freaking bio was never needed, the comic itself stated universe.
Freakin bio doesn't prove or change anything.

The Phoenix Force has always been a "Universal power"

did yall just discover that?

But,

in "Here Comes Tomorrow"

Jean did NOT manipulate the atoms of 616 Universe, (in any way, shape or form)

It is clearly stated in the Official Marvel bios,
it was the "Alternate Future of Reality 15104" (the Future of a Timeline)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"
...........................................................................................

Yall can spin it all yall want ... who

You don't want me in your thread, that fine,
but tell those kids to stop using my name in it.

Originally posted by id369
The comic states Orphan Universe, Mr. M tagged it as Baby Universe.
One has to understand, where the reference of orphan comes from.
Its an entire Universe plucked out from the Multiverse,
how could it be an Orphan? Oh…the relationship of Universe and Multiverse.
Every Universe baby or not is connected to the Marvel Omniverse.

Or the relationship of Timeline and Universe it's connected to.
Originally posted by id369
Basically Jean ascends to the White Hot Room,
plucking out the future reality of 15104, and cures it.
I agree.

Originally posted by id369
But the Phoenix Force was not contempt to how things ended up
since reality 15104 is the direct future of 616.
Not necessarily, it is a "possible" Future,
many "possible" Futures in Marvel.

I could give you a plethora of a realities set in the Future, even right now.
Originally posted by id369
So Phoenix manifested the entire 616 reality in the palm of her hand,
and administers reality adjustment.
Scoot leaving the institute never happens, so Here Comes Tomorrow never comes to pass.
I completely disagree.

This is how it went down:

....................................................................................................

Jean Amputates the Future of Reality 15104 and Repairs it in the WHR:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5770/nxm15420uj8.th.jpg

"Hospital White Hot" ... "Grow better Future"

....................................................................................................


Jean STILL hasn't done anything to Reality 15104.


After Repairing the Future of Reality 15104, PF says,

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4728/fixwx1.th.jpg

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,

not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"


++++++++++++++++++++++

There you have it, it was the reparation to the Future of Reality 15104,
that Jean manipulated atomically.

++++++++++++++++++++++
....................................................................................................


Now Reality 15104 appears in Jean's hands,
Jean doesn't know what it is, or what to do with it:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7906/nxm15421ei4.th.jpg

....................................................................................................

Jean still hasn't done a thing to Reality 15104.

In the last Panel, Jean finally does something:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6217/nxm15422md1.th.jpg

"Live Scott"
....................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean went into the Past, changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.


According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1293/0zc0.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
....................................................................................................


On Panel verification:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1856/nxm15423zs3.th.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3156/nxm15424mt8.th.jpg


I guess ol' MORRISON wasn't lying about the Story HE CREATED.


....................................................................................................


There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104.

For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"

We'll never know until the time comes,
this is why these Timelines are enclosed in their own Reality apart from the 616 Universe.

Originally posted by id369

The thing that makes it silly is,
that Phoenix did not have to manifest a universe,
and have total control of the atoms within it.
Not if it meant, to change the mind of a simple mutant.
It's not silly, its that she Never did that.

Jean simply went into the Past,
which is easily accomplished withIN the WHR (outside of Space/Time)

Jean then mind rapes Scott,
and Scott's decision alters the Future of Reality 15104.

The power was ALL in Scott's decision.

Originally posted by id369
But its worthy feat (making up for the Xorn crap).
Never existed.

Now the Xorn crap, is 100% Canon.

Referenced across THREE separate Arcs,
and corroborated/confirmed in the PF's offiicial Handbook.b

Phoenix never held an entire Universe in her hands and made amputations to it.

With PREP (Seven pages to be exact)

Jean amputated the Alternate Future of Reality 15104.

Reality 15104 is 150 years old,
how can this be compared to 616 which has been expanding for Billions of years?

Reality 15104 is a possible Future of Reality 616.

Reality 15104's Future, NOT 616's ...
is what Jean amputated and Repaired in the WHR atomically.

Jean never did anything to Reality 15104 which manifested in her hands.

(read X-Men #154)

At the end of the issue (#154) Jean goes back in time,
changes Scott's mind about Emma & the X-Men,
this then Alters the possible Future of 616.

So essentially it was Scott's decision that created and Altered 15104, not Jean.

Jean ONLY manipulated Scott's decision,
but the power to alter that Reality laid in Scott's mind.
.........................................................................................


BTW.

Uatu did the same thing with Reality 311 (the year 1602 of the 616 Universe)

Uatu held it in his hands, and then placed that entire Universe within himself.

That entire Universe of course was a Timeline just like Jean's,
and a "Tiny" one at that, because it was a young Reality just like Jean's 15104.

........................................................................................

Uatu holding and placing a Timeline - Reality 311 (the year 1602) inside himself:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8945/utto3.th.jpg

"I place the High Tribunal's gift inside me; A Tiny Universe"



The High Tribunal Watcher didn't just repair this entire Universe uhh, Timeline,
he actually Re-Created it, from nothingness:

........................................................................................


All Timelines are universes, I've never denied that.
But Timelines because of their infancy and untimely existence are tiny/baby universes,
they are universes nontheless,

but there's a huge difference
between a Universe that's been expanding for billions of years,
and a universe that's barely over 150 years old.

This is why Uatu can also hold Timelines in his hands like marbels.

Originally posted by Mr Master
....................................................................................................

Jean still hasn't done a thing to Reality 15104.

In the last Panel, Jean finally does something:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6217/nxm15422md1.th.jpg

"Live Scott"
....................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean went into the Past, changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.


According to Grant Morrison: (the Writer of this arc)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1293/0zc0.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
....................................................................................................


On Panel verification:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1856/nxm15423zs3.th.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3156/nxm15424mt8.th.jpg


I guess ol' MORRISON wasn't lying about the Story HE CREATED.


....................................................................................................
I guess to conclude this debate once and for all, I also noticed this:


After Prep!

Jean took Sublime out of Beast (this disinfected the Future of Reality 15104)

Then Jean teleported to the WHR (Hospital) for Realities.

Jean heals "wounded orphan universe"

How?

By "Symbolically watering it with her heart's blood" ...

What does that mean?


(What it has always meant On Panel in bios and according to Grant Morrison himself)


Jean went into the Past ... forced Scott to stay with the X-Men & Emma,

and ... that's it.

.....................................

Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 ...

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6421/pfyu7.th.jpg

"In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...

.................................................................................


That'll be all ... peace & love yall stoned

Great respect thread, kudos to all involved

I wish Mr Masters could just leave it alone, and debate these issues in the proper thread.Is it possible to take out his post? the flow of information is disrupted by his attempt at debating

Originally posted by starlock
Great respect thread, kudos to all involved

I wish Mr Masters could just leave it alone, and debate these issues in the proper thread.Is it possible to take out his post? the flow of information is disrupted by his attempt at debating

Yes indeed. That's the reason this thread was supposed to be REMASTERED. . Good job guys. Mr. Master could u please take your references to the vs. board.

I'll agree with the majority in this situation. Master, leave it for either the vs. forum, your hierarchy thread, or even occasional (but not overwhelming) posts in the "Mythbuster" thread.

Any subsequent posts intended as debate-provoking will be edited.

As for others, if Master has a point, don't try to play off a character as higher than they are. Truth, not exagerration, is always preferable.

To Digi, I never wanted to post in here, I never have,
no offense to the thread but thankfully from what I've seen
no one really pays any mind to it in the vs threads,
everyone pretty much know the real deal.

Anyway,

this is WHY I posted in this thread Digi ...

(I will never post here again, but let me clear my name ... Watch the hypocrisy)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473316&pagenumber=2
Originally posted by id369

Hush you, or else the non believer will come in
and disrupt the flow of this clean and informative respect thread.

Do me a favor If it comes to that, ignore his posts.

Originally posted by Xplosive

So, it wasn't only orphan (which Mr Master so confidently thought it was),


Originally posted by GalacticStorm

So much for Mr Masters claims that it was a

..........................................................................................................

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473316&pagenumber=3

Originally posted by id369

Orphan Universe, Mr. M tagged it as Baby Universe. One has to understand,



..........................................................................................................


Quite different now when we see the big picture laid out for us .... ey Digi?


These cats are literally having a discussion about my views openly in This thread,
full of condescension, plus, discrediting my established interpretations.

On this one, you know I'm right ... You don't do that in a "Respect Thread"

You make your opinions known (right or wrong) and keep it at that.
..........................................................................................................

Originally posted by starlock
Great respect thread, kudos to all involved

I wish Mr Masters could just leave it alone,
and debate these issues in the proper thread.
Is it possible to take out his post?
the flow of information is disrupted by his attempt at debating
The usual suspects in the arena of hypocrites never fails us.

Why didn't you make a comment about how it was THEM that started the debate?

All you saw was your opportunity to shine against Mr Master ...
Originally posted by Sundipped
Mr. Master could u please take your references to the vs. board.
Same goes for you homie,
why aren't you telling the thread started not to incite Mr Master
into coming in here and making a point,
Mr Master's NAME is being tossed in a derogatory (fallacious) conversation between spam man, and himself concerning what I Then, POSTED in Here.

So they have the right to amuse the public with My Name in This thread

but I don't get to defend it though?

Right? .... Fascism?

So can we have these posted edited or deleted?

Master, by now you must realize that your heavy-handed and elaborate style ends up offending and/or intimidating many, or at least turning them off from it. I could care less about the validity of your conclusions. From all I've seen, they're very calculated and for the most part correct. But that clearly isn't the issue.

And sure, it runs both ways, so others should stop trying to incite you to debate. But nothing I saw in those posts counts as anything against forum rules, so quit trying to pass the blame when it's clear you've overstepped the bounds of this thread.

Well there are plenty of threads discussing Phoenix, especially the events that happened in “Here Comes Tomorrow”. I mean off the top of my mind you have Original Phoenix Respect Thread and even the recent WC Phoenix runs a mini DC gauntlet! .

I guess we should just take, Mr. M’s response here, as a form of brining a perspective over Phoenix. But there is no reason, why Me or GS would write our own for informative reasons.

As long as, the flow of information is not broken and a heated debate is not incited. I see no harm done right?

Disclaimer: I can provide most of the material posted by myself. So if anyone wishes to read over a certain issue. Simply PM me.

And so, I will post most of New X-Men #154 (not all …No Cover, introduction, and questioners for you >_&lt since recent rules forbid me to post an entire comic book. Reason for this is, I simply isolate, and cut out specific parts to explain myself. I don’t want you to get the wrong idea, of any quote or scan manipulation is taking place. So, the entire image can be used here as back reference.

Now I feel the need to explain myself, since I am the one claiming White Phoenix of the Crown amputated the future a reality (which was 616, which later becomes 15104) and manifested 616 Universe on the palm of her hand. I will also take my time, and break a few mythos regarding Phoenix in “Here Comes Tomorrow”.

New X-Men #154 “Here Comes Tomorrow” Part 3.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4204/newxmenv115402qe5.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/967/newxmenv115403bm1.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3023/newxmenv115404vz7.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8053/newxmenv115405og5.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1513/newxmenv115406zd1.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8936/newxmenv115407la8.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8958/newxmenv115408ik5.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9538/newxmenv115409qo4.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/291/newxmenv115410bf7.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3773/newxmenv115411gu7.jpg
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8462/newxmenv115412lb7.jpg
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/1320/newxmenv115413rh8.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8676/newxmenv115414hy4.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7348/newxmenv115415fm0.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4779/newxmenv115416xe4.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6030/newxmenv115417la6.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1373/newxmenv115418cq1.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1736/newxmenv115419mp1.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5272/newxmenv115420sf3.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7343/newxmenv115421ah0.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/715/newxmenv115422hm0.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6696/newxmenv115423ho8.jpg

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee217/Darkhalen/phoenix17.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee217/Darkhalen/phoenix3.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee217/Darkhalen/DarkPhoenix3-1.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee217/Darkhalen/Whitephoenix.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee217/Darkhalen/phoenixtransformation.jpg

Just a few, if you like them, then I shall post more...allot more

Here Comes Tomorrows

Ah the much alluded, and controversial occurrences of “Here Comes Tomorrow”. Its where two of Phoenix Feats takes place, ironically its also a topic that stems a much heated debate (I am sure you have seen it from time to time). Well I am such a nice guy, you can download issues 150-155 along with Official Mutant Files and The Official Handbook to Alternate Realities”. Here.


Note: Please keep in mind that, when a reality is diverged from its time line it becomes an alternate/parallel reality from its breeching point (the point from where, an action to took place to alter the future). Before the event adjustment, it’s was the chronological future. After the even adjustment, it sprouts a different future. So I encourage the followings.

(1) - Have a basic understanding, of how future of a reality, can become an alternate reality (because it can get complicated).

(2) - I STRONGLY encourage, members to pre-read New X-Men 150-155, and use the bio to supplement (not override) the comic’s depiction.


Significance of the material I provided Here.
New X-Men 150 - It marks the first appearance “Here Comes Tomorrow” arc, taking place 150 years into the future.
New X-Men 151-154 - The bulk happenings and occurrences takes place. Along with the “Event Adjustment“, at the end of 154. Where the past is altered, so the future never comes to be.
New X-Men 155 - The Epilogue sort of speak. You do find Grant Morrison short answer and explanation in the questionnaire at the vary last page.
The Official Hand Book of the Marvel Universe “Alternate Realities” - you will find one page, dedicated to “Here Comes Tomorrow”.
X-Men: Messiah Complex “Mutant Files” - You will find the most recent Official bio, over 616 Phoenix.

So if you think I am manipulating the context, just DL and back reference the uncorrupted material.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1415/30cafelito3tzea3.gif
So I will highlight some claims, and address the issue briefly, and then go in full detail.
Here Comes Tomorrow Took Place in reality 15104 in its entirety.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/Jetstorm_2007/facepalm.pngNo I strongly disagree, reasons why:
Issue 150 specifies 150 years later (not reality15104).
There is only ONE White Phoenix of the Crown. And she died in 616 universe, in HCT 616 Jean is brought back.
We have NO record of 616 Jean body being moved around through realities.
Its 616 Cyclops that decision that incites HCT, and later diverts HCT


Jean manifested what she just amputated the future of a reality.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/Jetstorm_2007/facepalm.pngNo this is Completely False, reasons why:
Amputation and treatment took place in a single panel.
Next Panel, it's asked and verified that she is already holdings the future of a reality.
It follows, with 616 Jean deciding that his friends do not deserve to end this way.
Comic depicts a manifestation of a “Universe” not the Future of a reality.
Its through that universe that she manipulates (present time) 616 Scott.

The Universe Jean manifested was not reality 616, but reality 15104.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/Jetstorm_2007/facepalm.pngThat is completely wrong.
616 Scott resides within the universe she manifested.
616 Jean, manipulates 616 Scott through the universe she manifested.

What Jean Held was a Baby Universe or a Universe with 150 years of history?!?
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/Jetstorm_2007/facepalm.pnglol, yeah sounds silly and it is but it not true.
No comic, bio, nor the Author has ever addressed the Universe Jean held in such manner EVER.
Comic Book states: It lost its parents when it broke unity across the Megasystems
Comic Book states: A badly wounded orphan universe.
Don’t worry, it sounds complicated but it really isn’t. I will go in detail.

It Took 7 pages of prep to perform an amputation of a future reality.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/Jetstorm_2007/facepalm.pngNa UH. It took two pages.
Amputation did not take place until, Jean came to her senses, and re-establish her link with the PF.
Once a ware of the situation, and with her PF powers. She proceeds to amputate the future of a reality.
She also manifested an entire universe in one page. >_<

What happens when Cyclops embedded with the Phoenix Force takes on Darksied?
X-Men/Teen Titans
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6320/xmentitans58vx7.th.jpg
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6320/xmentitans58vx7.jpg

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1000/xmentitans59eb3.th.jpg
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1000/xmentitans59eb3.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2070/xmentitans60ip3.th.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2070/xmentitans60ip3.jpg

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8602/xmentitans61zf5.th.jpg
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8602/xmentitans61zf5.jpg

Excalibur: Weird War 3
This special takes place after Excalibur v1 #10
Phoenix is unexpectedly responsible for the unification of two separate realties merging into one. Eventually Phoenix restores cosmic balance segregating those two worlds. Or more like stops the unification, and reverts it back to original state.
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2523/excaliburweirdwariii58kl6.th.jpg
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2523/excaliburweirdwariii58kl6.jpg

Phoenix Force a Multiversal Power.
Ok some of you remember, how Cube beings or even Odin in the mist of a fight effected the multiverse in one form or another (Please correct me on Odin, if I am wrong). And according to Kubic for all its omnipotent powers, Celestials simply operate on a higher level's of Omnipotence beyond him.

Well I am not sure about many of you, but I regard Phoenix above a Celestial. Its exact ranking, is not really an issue (that’s more or less an opinion of mine and yours). And I really hate ABC logic, like the one stated by Kubic or matching up characters to lesser beings who show grander displays. So I am going to disregard Kubic comments, and restrain from quantifying Odin feat. Regardless, the other cosmics (Death, Eternity, The Watcher) Regard Phoenix as a Primal Force of the Universe, through comic book Narration it has bin regarded as the Ultimate Primal Force.


Lets Begin with the first piece of evidence. M’Kran Crystal.
U. X-Men #108
.

Originally it was a Neutron Galaxy and the treat of its energy release would reek the destruction of the universe. However this has bin retconed as the Nexus of Realties and its devastation threaten the entire Multiverse. Yes she had help, her team mates life force not only help her anchor herself, but the spiritual support kept her motivated to endure. And a mighty task, since she needed to re-energize and nit the Lattice Fields. In case nobody noticed, the Latice Fields are composed of anti-energy that keeps the Multiversal energies of the M”Kran crystal at bay. Naturally the Phoenix was going to suffer from exposing herself to the Lattice Fields.

Excalibur: Weird War 3
This special takes place after Excalibur v1 #10
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2523/excaliburweirdwariii58kl6.th.jpg
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2523/excaliburweirdwariii58kl6.jpg

When Rachael traveled to another reality and back. It left a funnel open between the two realities. What we see shortly after, are two worlds merging into one. The Phoenix goes on, restore the two worlds and close the funnel.


Excalibur v1 #14
In another Earth, Impossible Man created a silly version of 616 Earth. Galactus come over and decides that these actions are a threat to the entire Omniverse. Before he leaves, Galactus remarks that Impossible Man is almost as big as a threat as the Phoenix.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1092/exc14p21ud0.th.jpghttp://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2995/exc14p23mm8.th.jpg

Excalibur v1 #50
The Phoenix uses its power, to project the tower across the Multiverse.
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7299/excalibur050p17dl6.th.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7299/excalibur050p17dl6.jpg

New X-Men #154
As you may know, the Phoenix’(s), has accesses to their own dimension outside space/time/reality. The White Hot Room. Within the WHR various activities takes place but its mostly referred as Phoenix Work. Well here is one of the more bigger jobs that took place. Phoenix can amputate the future of an entire reality and atomically control that structure.

But wait, it gets better, we also get to see the manifestation of the rest of 616 Universe, and like the comic states. Total Atomic Control through Telekinesis.

So yes in HCT you see, how the Phoenix interacted with the 616 universe, that lead to the creation of reality 15104.

What If: The X-Men Lost Inferno
Some of you may debunk this because it’s a non cannon material to the 616 continuality. But you have to keep in mind it is part of Marvel continuality, and the M Body of the LT, is the same LT being projected across the Multiverse.

Anyhow, narration comments that Phoenix with a Host is much to much danger to the Multiverse.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5764/whatifinferno0627zj0.th.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5764/whatifinferno0627zj0.jpg

What If X-Men: Rise and Fall of the Shi’Ar Empire
Again some of you may dismiss this like the above. However you if follow marvel mythos, The White Hoot Room, is the center point the meeting place to the door way that is M’Kran Crystal. Any how its hinted that Vulcan gains the Phoenix Force, and goes on to lay waste the rest of the Phoenix Corps.
What's interesting is the endings, it was Jean who appeared at the end. It was Jean who acted out as the Phoenix Conscious. It was Jean who held back its powers against her friends and family. And it was Jean who initially granted Vulcan the Phoenix powers. And Jean is wearing the infamous white garment.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2629/whatifdcp0003zr7.th.jpghttp://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7836/whatifdcp0040dg7.th.jpg


If we follow the Phoenix mythos, there is only one White Phoenix of the Crown. And at the time of this What IF, WPotC was in the White Hoot Room. So it serves to show that once again, a Phoenix is capable of destroying a Universe (it didn’t come to that), easily obliterating opposition (Shi’Ar Empire, Annihilation Wave, the Kree, Galaxies etc..). But the most interesting is, re-affirming that WPotC holds over the rest of the Phoenix Avatar’s.

Yay I got the Dark Phoenix Saga collection today....which means I can post pics of DP in all her terrifying glory.

A question was once asked. Did the Phoenix pre-exsist prior to the current Universe? I had no real backing to say it did. However I came across this bio:

Annihilation - Nova Corps Files
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3541/annihilation6novacorpsfai2.th.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3541/annihilation6novacorpsfai2.jpg

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/396/biojn0.jpg

I will let you make your own conclusion

X-Men: Emperor Vulcan #5

Rachel wielding reminiscing energies of the Phoenix Force, fights Gladiator to a stand still.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1156/xmenev5dcp0014ko2.th.jpghttp://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8537/xmenev5dcp0022bb2.th.jpg

Originally posted by id369
X-Men: Emperor Vulcan #5

Rachel wielding reminiscing energies of the Phoenix Force, fights Gladiator to a stand still.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1156/xmenev5dcp0014ko2.th.jpghttp://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8537/xmenev5dcp0022bb2.th.jpg

this was awsome do they fight again in the issue

Originally posted by jasofisc
this was awsome do they fight again in the issue

No they dont, thats all the action we get.

Age of Apocalypse
X-Men - Age of Apocalypse One-Shot #01
I think you all remember, how AoA was about to end? The bombs where to about to decend effectively wipe out the city where the resistance against took place? Or that with bishops actions AoA timeline was never going to be?
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3728/xmenageofapocalypseonescy2.th.jpghttp://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2708/xmenageofapocalypseonesyu7.th.jpghttp://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7054/xmenageofapocalypseonesup1.th.jpg

X-Men - Age of Apocalypse 05
Well take a look at what happened to the bombs
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2572/xmenageofapocalypse0508ux6.th.jpghttp://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2167/xmenageofapocalypse0509vo3.th.jpghttp://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1588/xmenageofapocalypse0506qj1.th.jpg

X-Men - Age of Apocalypse 06
Well, Jean not only stopped and reverted the explosion/contained the explosion. She saved the entire time line from being erased. And you thought she can only control an entire time line within the White Hot Room.
Bam….I mean BAM!
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4307/xmenageofapocalypse06ta1.th.jpg

Ok this one leaves me a bit, confused. Ultimate Jean/Phoenix either:
A) Restores everything.
B) Turns back time, prior to the decimation lead by the encounter with Apocalypse.

Anyhow it takes place in Ultimate X-Men #93
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2126/ultimatexmen093020021nh6.th.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2126/ultimatexmen093020021nh6.jpg

Originally posted by id369
Ok this one leaves me a bit, confused. Ultimate Jean/Phoenix either:
A) Restores everything.
B) Turns back time, prior to the decimation lead by the encounter with Apocalypse.

Anyhow it takes place in Ultimate X-Men #93
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2126/ultimatexmen093020021nh6.th.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2126/ultimatexmen093020021nh6.jpg

I don't think she turns back time, she resets the world. Restores everything, erases memories from everyone, only X-Men have their memories.