Power vs. Speed?

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h1a8
I once was reading the rules to a marvel card playing game (I think the game resembled pokeman in some way). Anyway, I vaguely remember that if a character, who's speed is a 7 (>=lightspeed), went up against another character who's speed <7 then the former character automatically won by default, regardless of the powerset of the latter character. At first, I thought this was unfair and false. I mean what if the lower speed character had more than enough power to take the higher speed guy out?
After watching justice league unlimited, where Flash is trapped with such a speed that everyone around him is statues. It then hit me on the head as to why this rule is right. It is because if one can move at a superior speed than another then it is just the same as if the one had stopped time on the other. The other wouldn't' get a chance to even do anything (regardless of his/her power).

Also I am a former master at Street Fighter II (The World Warrior and Championship Edition). In my lifetime, I pulled off every combo imaginable with every character. With certain characters, if I hit you once then you automatically lose the game. This is because after the first hit I would string in another hit before you can recover and then string in one to a few more until you were dizzy. Then while you are dizzy, I would perform the combo once more, making you ko and lose the round. People hated that. I mean it was the same as beating someone with one hit everytime.

With that said here are the questions:

1. Given that two characters (A and B) have the power to hurt and ko the other, if A had superior speed over B and B had superior power over A then who wins?

2. If A hit B first (because they are faster) then does A automatically win after the first hit? Why or why not?

My answer to 1. is yes and my answer to 2. is yes because of the combo to ko principle.

The reason I created this thread is that I feel most people on this forum are usually the fallacy that great power>>>>>sufficient speed all the time. So if someone can give me some insight to where I'm going wrong then I would appreciate it. But please use good logic (no fallacies) to answer the questions (only if your answer is no to both).

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by h1a8
1. Given that two characters (A and B) have the power to hurt and ko the other, if A had superior speed over B and B had superior power over A then who wins?

In "reality" A would win because he would never be harmed and can fight at his leizure. On the other hand if A is sufficiently less powerdul than B he'll never harm B at all and eventually become tired and slow down to the point where B will strike him.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. If A hit B first (because they are faster) then does A automatically win after the first hit? Why or why not?

Of course not. You can't assume that a person in a fight will automatically go for a chain of hits, real people don't fight like that. If A did just keep striking without giving B a chance to react then he would win.


Basically you fail because trying to generalize is stupid.

endrict
There is no logic in video games or comics so it shouldn't be compared to real life.

Get a life!

h1a8
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In "reality" A would win because he would never be harmed and can fight at his leizure. On the other hand if A is sufficiently less powerdul than B he'll never harm B at all and eventually become tired and slow down to the point where B will strike him.



Of course not. You can't assume that a person in a fight will automatically go for a chain of hits, real people don't fight like that. If A did just keep striking without giving B a chance to react then he would win.


Basically you fail because trying to generalize is stupid.

But I said, "Given that A and B have the power to hurt (ko) the other ".
That means that B doesn't have a durability where A will run out of energy before B is koed. Otherwise, A loses to sufficient power.

Of course one can choose to not chain hits together. But here on KMC characters are to use the optimal strategy in order to win. And planning before the bell is allowed. So if its in a character to chain hits together then they will certainly go with that strategy on a KMC fight.

h1a8
Originally posted by endrict
There is no logic in video games or comics so it shouldn't be compared to real life.

Get a life!

If there were no logic then we wouldn't play nor read such things.
logically impossible is not the same as factually impossible. The former doesn't exist anywhere and the latter exists in comics and video games.

With that said, not everything in comics or video games is not the exact same as real life. Actually combos are more real and dramatic in real life then in any comic, movie, or video game. So if a combo works in a video game then it would work more than 10x better in real life. Your assumption of the opposite is clearly wrong.

DigiMark007
I think this is a thinly veiled Spider-Man vs. Wolverine thread.

shifty

Anyway, Pete for the win.

31

Mindship
Originally posted by h1a8
1. Given that two characters (A and B) have the power to hurt and ko the other, if A had superior speed over B and B had superior power over A then who wins?

2. If A hit B first (because they are faster) then does A automatically win after the first hit? Why or why not?

My answer to 1. is yes and my answer to 2. is yes because of the combo to ko principle.

The reason I created this thread is that I feel most people on this forum are usually the fallacy that great power>>>>>sufficient speed all the time. So if someone can give me some insight to where I'm going wrong then I would appreciate it. But please use good logic (no fallacies) to answer the questions (only if your answer is no to both).
I don't see either case shutting-out the other. "Speed" is a simple, 1-dimensional quantity; "power" is complex and multidimensional (strength? durability? energy manip? combo?). And what are the relative energy levels between the sets?

A powerful enough being should win simply because his opponent, no matter how fast he is, is simply not powerful enough to do any serious damage. On the other hand, if the faster opponent is within damage range, then he should win, because the more powerful being can't tag him and eventually will be worn down (if nothing else, by his own efforts to tag the other guy).

Newjak
Omni-Directional Blast for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!! stick out tongue

2damnloud
What if opponent B had the power precognition and could anticipate the oppent B's moves?shifty

Blax_Hydralisk
You mean.. like.. Hulk holding his hand out just at he right time so the Flash runs into it and clothesline's himself?

peejayd
Originally posted by h1a8
With that said here are the questions:

1. Given that two characters (A and B) have the power to hurt and ko the other, if A had superior speed over B and B had superior power over A then who wins?

2. If A hit B first (because they are faster) then does A automatically win after the first hit? Why or why not?

My answer to 1. is yes and my answer to 2. is yes because of the combo to ko principle.

* A wins not because of "combo to ko" principle but because of this: "Given that two characters (A and B) have the power to hurt and ko the other"... wink

lft4ded
Doesn't 'A' also have to make sure 'B' can't retaliate? 'A' could get in 3 really good hits that hurt, but don't daze/dizzy 'B'. Then all the more powerful 'B' has to do is get in one hit before/simultaneously as 'A' gets in hit 4. If 'B's first hit dazes/slows 'A' enough then 'B' could conceivably win.

3 hits and the other numbers are generalizations but just because 'A' can hurt 'B' doesn't mean the damage will rack up fast enough to put down 'B'.

BA vs WW? wink

Doctor-Alvis
Originally posted by h1a8
1. Given that two characters (A and B) have the power to hurt and ko the other, if A had superior speed over B and B had superior power over A then who wins?
It would depend on the difference in speed and power. Unless you're meaning pure offensive power, B might have the defensive power to hang in there long enough and the speed/reaction margin is fairly small, B could proc a Puncher's Chance and win.

Of course that'd depend on the type of defense and type of attack too.


It could. Again, it depends on the differentials. And if you get down to the nitty gritty, there's little things that could realistically happen and change the outcome. A small slip, slightly mistiming something, etc. It's kind of based on luck but in the fight sports it's called Puncher's Chance.

Originally posted by 2damnloud
What if opponent B had the power precognition and could anticipate the oppent B's moves?shifty
Flash would still win.

I mean... then B would need enough speed, mentally and physically, to react to it.

Violent2Dope
It depends on powerset. Speed and power are never the only factors.

janus77
Originally posted by 2damnloud
What if opponent B had the power precognition and could anticipate the oppent B's moves?shifty
opponent B better have some ability to anticipate opponent B's moves, or else it would call into question his sanity wink.


oh and power V speed is always going to favour power since speed is just a function of power (energy/muscles/stamina etc etc etc...).

but Speed v Strength/durability ... that would be an interesting one, only resolved by a sorta differential equation yes.

h1a8
Originally posted by Mindship
I don't see either case shutting-out the other. "Speed" is a simple, 1-dimensional quantity; "power" is complex and multidimensional (strength? durability? energy manip? combo?). And what are the relative energy levels between the sets?

A powerful enough being should win simply because his opponent, no matter how fast he is, is simply not powerful enough to do any serious damage. On the other hand, if the faster opponent is within damage range, then he should win, because the more powerful being can't tag him and eventually will be worn down (if nothing else, by his own efforts to tag the other guy).

It was given that A has the power to damage (ko) B.

h1a8
Originally posted by Newjak
Omni-Directional Blast for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!! stick out tongue
Not if A hits B first (In which he is fast enough to do).

h1a8
Originally posted by 2damnloud
What if opponent B had the power precognition and could anticipate the oppent B's moves?shifty

Good question.
When the battle starts then even with precog then B is still reduced to a statue. Look at it this way; as soon as the battle starts, time stops for B, so it doesn't matter how much precog B has.

h1a8
Originally posted by lft4ded
Doesn't 'A' also have to make sure 'B' can't retaliate? 'A' could get in 3 really good hits that hurt, but don't daze/dizzy 'B'. Then all the more powerful 'B' has to do is get in one hit before/simultaneously as 'A' gets in hit 4. If 'B's first hit dazes/slows 'A' enough then 'B' could conceivably win.

3 hits and the other numbers are generalizations but just because 'A' can hurt 'B' doesn't mean the damage will rack up fast enough to put down 'B'.

BA vs WW? wink

A uses the combo to ko principle.
In other words, A continues to string hit after hit until B is koed.

h1a8
Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
It would depend on the difference in speed and power. Unless you're meaning pure offensive power, B might have the defensive power to hang in there long enough and the speed/reaction margin is fairly small, B could proc a Puncher's Chance and win.

Of course that'd depend on the type of defense and type of attack too.


It could. Again, it depends on the differentials. And if you get down to the nitty gritty, there's little things that could realistically happen and change the outcome. A small slip, slightly mistiming something, etc. It's kind of based on luck but in the fight sports it's called Puncher's Chance.


Flash would still win.

I mean... then B would need enough speed, mentally and physically, to react to it.

Good points.
Superior Speed is defined as a speed in which the other can't respond/react to within the standard battlefield distance of each other, no matter what the relative velocities of A and B are. So there will be no defensive options for B when the battle starts.

Now of course a slip for A where B is given time to recover will result in B winning. So for the sake of argument, lets assume that slips won't happen when someone is attacking (especially in comics). Better yet, let's either define the ground to be a ground such that it has sufficient traction for A to move or lets define A to fly if it is at all possible for him to slip.

h1a8
Originally posted by janus77
opponent B better have some ability to anticipate opponent B's moves, or else it would call into question his sanity wink.


oh and power V speed is always going to favour power since speed is just a function of power (energy/muscles/stamina etc etc etc...).

but Speed v Strength/durability ... that would be an interesting one, only resolved by a sorta differential equation yes.

I defined A to have superior speed over B. So it doesn't matter how fast B is, A would still be moving at a speed in which B can't react to (as defined by Superior Speed ). So A has relative Superior Speed to B.

I also defined for A to be able to damage (ko) B. So it doesn't matter the lvl of durability that B has because A is defined to be able to hurt B.

Doctor-Alvis
Originally posted by h1a8
Good points.
Superior Speed is defined as a speed in which the other can't respond/react to within the standard battlefield distance of each other, no matter what the relative velocities of A and B are. So there will be no defensive options for B when the battle starts.

Now of course a slip for A where B is given time to recover will result in B winning. So for the sake of argument, lets assume that slips won't happen when someone is attacking (especially in comics). Better yet, let's either define the ground to be a ground such that it has sufficient traction for A to move or lets define A to fly if it is at all possible for him to slip.
Is "Superior Speed" a specific class or ranking or something in this card game you are talking about?

I guess yeah, if B can be hurt by A and has no available defense against A's attacks and sheer speed and the are no mistakes, and in the case of one hit KO's, A will never lose.

That's probably why people complain in Flash threads.

Durability does play a factor though. If B can take damage but is still tough enough to wade the storm for a while before he goes down a counter attack can still be made. Maybe not the best attack, because in this situation B is getting rattled constantly, but it could turn the tides.

h1a8
Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Is "Superior Speed" a specific class or ranking or something in this card game you are talking about?

I guess yeah, if B can be hurt by A and has no available defense against A's attacks and sheer speed and the are no mistakes, and in the case of one hit KO's, A will never lose.

That's probably why people complain in Flash threads.

Durability does play a factor though. If B can take damage but is still tough enough to wade the storm for a while before he goes down a counter attack can still be made. Maybe not the best attack, because in this situation B is getting rattled constantly, but it could turn the tides.

There is an infinite difference between >=Lightspeed and <Lightspeed according to the speed of light being constant. For example, if you were traveling away from Earth at 5% the speed of light (very fast) and someone on Earth shot a beam of light pass you then you would measure the speed of that beam as the same speed as if you were standing still (which is the original speed of light). This is because the speed of light is constant relative to subluminal speeds. The marvel card game takes that into consideration when they made the rules to the speed issue.

A doesn't necessarilty need to one hit KO B to win. Do know know what the definition of a 'Combo' is? With the first hit A stuns B then A strings another hit fast enough before B can recover (keeping him in a stunned state). A continues in this fashion until B is koed. Taking damage here implies to be stunned in the process. For example, look at a simple three hit combo on Street Fighter II in slow motion. After Chun Li strikes Zangief in the chest with a jumping fierce (hard punch), his head reels in because of the force and being stunned. She then lands and follows it with a strong (spear hand) while his head is still reeling in (he's still in stun mode). This second hit causes his head to reel back now. Finally, she follows it with a fierce (lunging punch) while his head is reeling back (in stun mode again). This is a true combo.

The latter two hits are unstoppable after the first hit connects. Now if Zangief was able to block or counter after the first then either the latter hits wasn't fast enough or had no stunning effect. Thus is wasn't a combo by definition. But here A is fast enough and has the necessary power to stun B with each hit.

Bentley
I think that this lies under certain stipulations and powersets, and certainly cannot be an universal truth in comic battles.

Lets for example that Odin battles Flash. Lets say their speed is not that different, lets say that Flash is 100 times faster than Odin for this, hence he would be to attack 100 times before Odin does his first one. The problem is that if Odin is battling at his best, Flash won't be able to survive the first attack, it can be of a nature that he can dodge or perceive, like pulling a Surfer and killing Flash's soul instead of his body. Given Odin's power set, will one hundred white stars kill him? Hell, no. No matter the skill advantage, Flash loses there.

Doctor-Alvis
Originally posted by h1a8
There is an infinite difference between >=Lightspeed and <Lightspeed according to the speed of light being constant. For example, if you were traveling away from Earth at 5% the speed of light (very fast) and someone on Earth shot a beam of light pass you then you would measure the speed of that beam as the same speed as if you were standing still (which is the original speed of light). This is because the speed of light is constant relative to subluminal speeds. The marvel card game takes that into consideration when they made the rules to the speed issue.
I did not know that.


I'm aware of what a combo is. I'm referencing the stunning effect when I say B is getting "rattled". The thing about Street Fighter, and other games, is your character is immobilized by the rules of the game. Outside of that, some people can keep themselves together while stunned and some lay on the ground stiff legged while swinging into the air.

Maybe B with the omnidirectional blast can fire one off while in a daze of a million blows, maybe he can't.

Scoobless
Flash Thordon FTW!

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7306/flashthordoncomplete2rm5.jpg

h1a8
Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I did not know that.


I'm aware of what a combo is. I'm referencing the stunning effect when I say B is getting "rattled". The thing about Street Fighter, and other games, is your character is immobilized by the rules of the game. Outside of that, some people can keep themselves together while stunned and some lay on the ground stiff legged while swinging into the air.

Maybe B with the omnidirectional blast can fire one off while in a daze of a million blows, maybe he can't.

When I say stunned I'm not referring to the dizzy state.
I'm referring to the initial state of the blow that rocks the brain so that it can't operate at that instant. So the combos I'm strictly referring to are head combos (nothing but head shots). I only used Street Fighter as an example. In reality, someone will be knocked away from each hit. That is why I said that A is fast enough to string in another hit on B before B can recover . If B is able to think clearly to use his powers while A is hitting him then B recovered and this is against the hypothesis (either A wasn't fast enough or A wasn't strong enough).

spetznaz
Originally posted by 2damnloud
What if opponent B had the power precognition and could anticipate the oppent B's moves?shifty

Mindship put it very well.

As for Pre-Cog, well ....unless B has the ability to use that pre-cog then it will not help him.
Imagine, for example, that Spiderman was fighting the Flash. Well, it really would be of no use. By the time his mind even receives that tingly feeling the Flash would have already clocked him from here to China.

for precog to help several factors have to be fully engaged:

i) The pre-cog has to be faster than the ability of your opponent to hurt you (otherwise it makes no sense if you are facing someone coming at you at lightspeed, when your precog works at the speed of a synapse firing in your neurons .....your precog will not even be registered before you are dead)

ii) You have to be fast enough you use that precog (otherwise, all it would do - and this is to assume that the precog is faster than your opponent - is simply tell you that you are about to die in the next fraction of a millisecond)

iii) Or your pre-cog is more like future forecasting (as in, its time period is very very long ....meaning that you know that 6 months from now the Flash will attack you, you know how he will attack, and that allows you to basically set a trap months ahead that will be exactly where the Flash will be. This is different from simply putting a sword or digging a pit, because the Flash would be able to avoid all of that ......it would have to be something one can only find in comics .....e.g. an anti-speedforce generator or something stupid like that. Because anything else, e.g. extending a sword at the place you know the Flash will be running through will be useless because even at his great speed the Flash will still dodge it)

Anyways, for pre-cog to work certain things have to be in place.

Also, speed will trump A LOT. Not everything (as mind ship said, the speedster still has to be able to hurt the powerful dude .....e.g. it doesn't matter how fast the Flash is ......he will not defeat the Living Tribunal), but in most cases having a high enough (say Flash/Zoom level) speed factor would enable one to basically fiddle with most characters.

Doctor-Alvis
Originally posted by h1a8
When I say stunned I'm not referring to the dizzy state.
I'm referring to the initial state of the blow that rocks the brain so that it can't operate at that instant. So the combos I'm strictly referring to are head combos (nothing but head shots). I only used Street Fighter as an example. In reality, someone will be knocked away from each hit. That is why I said that A is fast enough to string in another hit on B before B can recover . If B is able to think clearly to use his powers while A is hitting him then B recovered and this is against the hypothesis (either A wasn't fast enough or A wasn't strong enough).
I wasn't referring to B being able to think clearly, just... enough. Enough to do something.

But in the situation you're describe it sounds like a KO every hit.

horrorwolf
It all depends on how much of a speed advantage one has over the other.

regardless of speed, strength, endurance, and durability play a huge factor here. Why?

The way comics are (often badly) written endurance doesn't usually come into play properly. In the real world speed attacks deplete endurance by an equal measure.

Example:

Someone like Quicksilver could strike Hulk thousands of times before taking a hit, but what does it matter if Hulk can endure a million strikes from QS, and only one eventual strike from Hulk would take him out. (plus each strike would actually be pissing Hulk off, in effect pumping him up?)

So obviously it purely depends on how much of an advantage one has over the other, and with speed it has to be an extreme edge, especially when the speed guy lacks durabilty, endurance etc.


And in the real world strength usally pwns speed. If you have one guy who is twice as strong, and one who is twice as fast, both equally conditioned....a real world close ranged fight favors the strength advantage, due to the fact that most fighters eventually take hits. Therefore the speed guy needs a larger speed advantage than the strength guy has.

faster guys usually = smaller more delicate frame.
stronger guys usually = more durable, tougher.

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