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i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

Death is just that: death. You won't know you're dead, you'll just be. And, not to be proverbial or anything, but I think you fear the unknown, not death.

Edit: If it's any consolation for you, chances are your brain patterns, since they're just energy, might one day come back in the same frequency, and you'll be you again. Though, not in the same body, nor will you have any previous memories.

atheism does not discount the possibility of mystical phenomenon. it just disocunts the possibility of traditional conceptions of GOD/s . there is more than enough reason to beleive that there is more to this world than the purely material and physical, as is the case with the human conciousness{which is basically what you do NOT want to lose. death is basically seazing of the conciousness}

Death is death.

What were you before you were born? Nothing.

What will you be after you die? Nothing.

Make the most of it now, cause there aint no 2nd chance!

I fear nonexistence more than anything.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
atheism does not discount the possibility of mystical phenomenon. it just disocunts the possibility of traditional conceptions of GOD/s . there is more than enough reason to beleive that there is more to this world than the purely material and physical, as is the case with the human conciousness{which is basically what you do NOT want to lose. death is basically seazing of the conciousness}

I was under the understanding that atheism doesn't discount anything...neither mystic phenomenon nor traditional conceptions of God or gods.

Originally posted by Quark_666
I was under the understanding that atheism doesn't discount anything...neither mystic phenomenon nor traditional conceptions of God or gods.

I suppose it would depend on the definition of atheism, but the generally accepted meaning is that it is of the belief that there isn't a divine creator or god-deity. You could get technical and say they aren't 100% certain, they just see it as a very logical conclusion, but that could go for most religions as well.

It doesn't have to go hand in hand with materialism (i.e. no paranormal phenomenon) but it usually does.

...

Michael Shermer, evolutionary biologist and publisher of Skeptic magazine, was once asked what his thoughts on the afterlife were. His answer: "I'm for it, of course!" Meaning, he didn't believe in it or see any logical reason why it's a reality, but if given the choice would gladly be shown to be wrong upon his death. I think it's much the same thing as EH is talking about, though I don't think Shermer has the same fear as him....the comment was mostly in jest.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me


Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

dont worry, i used to think death was black and scary n shit. you get to the point where you just concentrate on life. and if your an atheist, you PROBABLY dont want an afterlife, for the simple reason that you'll be in hell and you'll be tortured n shit. so im good with nothing. heaven would be nice i guess, but ill take eternal life and superpowers(internal fantasy :eek. i guess i dont believe in god because not only does it seem illogical, it seems like he really doesnt care. everything god has done in the bible can usually be looked at as him testing you or torturing a bunch of people. who lets his own son be tortured? there's to much suffering for there to be a god that cares. now if there is a god, its a creator, who created everything then stepped back.

dont overhink death, you brain hurts.

o and 1 more thing.............DANCING BANANA

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I suppose it would depend on the definition of atheism, but the generally accepted meaning is that it is of the belief that there isn't a divine creator or god-deity. You could get technical and say they aren't 100% certain, they just see it as a very logical conclusion, but that could go for most religions as well.

It doesn't have to go hand in hand with materialism (i.e. no paranormal phenomenon) but it usually does.

...

Michael Shermer, evolutionary biologist and publisher of Skeptic magazine, was once asked what his thoughts on the afterlife were. His answer: "I'm for it, of course!" Meaning, he didn't believe in it or see any logical reason why it's a reality, but if given the choice would gladly be shown to be wrong upon his death. I think it's much the same thing as EH is talking about, though I don't think Shermer has the same fear as him....the comment was mostly in jest.
i was under the impression that atheists dont believe in jack shit or very few mystical phenomenon ie. reincarnation etc. personally i dont believe in god, but i think reincarnation is possible

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I suppose it would depend on the definition of atheism, but the generally accepted meaning is that it is of the belief that there isn't a divine creator or god-deity. You could get technical and say they aren't 100% certain, they just see it as a very logical conclusion, but that could go for most religions as well.

It doesn't have to go hand in hand with materialism (i.e. no paranormal phenomenon) but it usually does.

...

Michael Shermer, evolutionary biologist and publisher of Skeptic magazine, was once asked what his thoughts on the afterlife were. His answer: "I'm for it, of course!" Meaning, he didn't believe in it or see any logical reason why it's a reality, but if given the choice would gladly be shown to be wrong upon his death. I think it's much the same thing as EH is talking about, though I don't think Shermer has the same fear as him....the comment was mostly in jest.

I see. So atheism is the opposite of mysticism in most definitions?

Originally posted by Quark_666
I see. So atheism is the opposite of mysticism in most definitions? Atheism is the non belief or disbelief in a deity, especially a personal deity, though many atheists reject all sorts of mystical deities, too.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic Is it really god you are hoping for, or an afterlife of some kind.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i was under the impression that atheists dont believe in jack shit or very few mystical phenomenon ie. reincarnation etc. personally i dont believe in god, but i think reincarnation is possible

Depends on the atheist. Technically Buddhists could be atheists, so your own beliefs aren't necessarily in contradiction with one another.

Originally posted by Quark_666
I see. So atheism is the opposite of mysticism in most definitions?

Depends on the atheist. The concept itself isn't the opposite of anything, and simply means that one doesn't believe in a theistic deity like many of the worlds major western religions.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

So then believe in God. Why be an athiest if it causes you discomfort?

Originally posted by BackFire
So then believe in God. Why be an athiest if it causes you discomfort? C-cause that's not that easy?

....But if he is wrong, he'll probably be screwed anyways....

I think, inherently, all man affirm the reality of a transcendent creator, even atheists; it is my view, that man either embrace the notion and take measures to seek understanding--perhaps a relationship?--despite the philosophical tug-of-war; not all truth is appealing, and so others reject what they naturally affirm and seek other more appealing truth. For instance, being held accountable/judged before a transcendent creator: some people--despite being apprehensive about the thought--humble themselves and remain open minded; other people simply--as I said before--seek other more appealing truth. Such people feel, in some cases, threatened by the thought of a transcendent creator; but most, I imagine, reject a transcendent creator out of selfishness and/or pride. This is not all inclusive, of course. Some people reject a transcendent creator in light of a dramatic experience, i.e., losing a loved one; but these people most certainly always focus their anger towards God, not the situation itself. Even in the worst of conditions, these men and women affirm the existence of a transcendent creator. Emotions and self-imposed philosophy are tools that atheists use to validate their thinking process. Professing that a "lack of evidence" lead persons away from faith, is just a scapegoat; they are running away from something that they cannot deny (for reasons stated in this response).

My advice to you, if you'll entertain such, is to remain open minded. Purchase research material on all subjects; everything! Give a fair inquiry to religious study, and be honest. Study evolution and molecular biology, moreover. Research subjects on the internet, but use caution. Numerous websites DO NOT CONTAIN A BIBLIOGRAPHY AND LACK SPONSORSHIP! There are reasons for this; find another source of information. In any case, subjects about god, science, theology, prophecy, and history are incredibly complex, and they require a great amount of effort to study, depending on how far you wish to seek. I just hope, whatever you decision amounts to in the end, is one that you have confidence in, because you know that you studied honestly (and let the evidence speak for itself, not emotion).

Originally posted by Bardock42
C-cause that's not that easy?

Why not?

Originally posted by BackFire
Why not?

I'd really like to believe that I'm the queen of the Sheba, or Chewbacca, or Princess Di, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Odds say even if he does believe in God he's screwed if there is one.

True.

"Damned if you do; damned if you don't."

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I'd really like to believe that I'm the queen of the Sheba, or Chewbacca, or Princess Di, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Because you know those are actually false, there is proof against them.

There is no valid evidence or proof for or against God eixisting, both sides have the same evidence (none), so altering beliefs to cause comfort should be fairly easy -- people do it all the time.

Originally posted by BackFire
Because you know those are actually false, there is proof against them.

There is no valid evidence or proof for or against God eixisting, both sides have the same evidence (none), so altering beliefs to cause comfort should be fairly easy -- people do it all the time.

I am so turned on right now.

But seriously, BF has a point.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am so turned on right now.

I believe the topic of the thread should be altered to discuss this new and fascinating revelation.

Originally posted by BackFire
Because you know those are actually false, there is proof against them.

There is no valid evidence or proof for or against God eixisting, both sides have the same evidence (none), so altering beliefs to cause comfort should be fairly easy -- people do it all the time.

Not my point, my point is that if you don't believe in something then you can't just make yourself believe in it, because you like the concept. The concept of eternal life and an omniscient presence is very attractive to some, but there's a very big difference between ''wouldn't it be nice if...'' and ''I believe entirely in this presence''.

That's the whole point of religious beliefs, though -- comfort and peace of mind, it's pleasing to think that when you die there is more, that you will meet all of your lost loved ones after you die, that there is a God who will make everything make sense after you die and who loves you and all that, so people believe in it.

The thread starter sounds like he NEEDS to believe in something more, an afterlife and such, in order to feel comfortable or happy with life, as such, he shouldn't be an Athiest if he can't handle the most basic concept of the belief structure.

And yes, it is totally possible to alter beliefs drastically if you want to, especially one that is as subjective as religion or God. All you have to do often is look at it from a different viewpoint with an open mind, if you WANT to believe in something, especially something like God or a specific religion, you can.

Oh, and to answer a question to the thread starter. Athiests cope with death very easily -- by not worrying about it. According to their beliefs nothing occurs upon death, you aren't concious of it at any level, whether that be a logical or spiritual level, so you don't even know when it occurs, so it shouldn't be feared.

Originally posted by BackFire
That's the whole point of religious beliefs, though -- comfort and peace of mind, it's pleasing to think that when you die there is more, that there is a God who will make everything make sense after you die and who loves you and all that, so people believe in it.

The thread starter sounds like he NEEDS to believe in something more, an afterlife and such, in order to feel comfortable or happy with life, as such, he shouldn't be an Athiest.

And yes, it is totally possible to alter beliefs drastically if you want to, especially one that is as subjective as religion or God. All you have to do often is look at it from a different viewpoint with an open mind, if you WANT to believe in something, you can.

I'm sure some can, though people who chop and change their beliefs aren't exactly the best ambassador for that set of beliefs. I never said it wasn't possible, I merely agree with Bardock and think it's not easy and also hold the belief that it's not always the best option.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I'm sure some can, though people who chop and change their beliefs aren't exactly the best ambassador for that set of beliefs. I never said it wasn't possible, I merely agree with Bardock and think it's not easy and also hold the belief that it's not always the best option.

Really shouldn't worry about being an 'ambassador' for something like that. Should just believe in what makes you happy. It's something too personal and again, subjective, to really worry about being taken seriously. Like trying to be an authority on your imaginary friend or something, really doesn't matter.

No it's not always the best option, but it's entirely better than continuing to believe in something that's causing you sadness, when again, the point of it all is to believe in what makes sense to you and what brings you happiness and comfort.

no1 is born with any knowledge of a creator. this can be easily proven by studying people born in enviornments not concerned with theism and just how much {completely}, your nurture determines what beleif you adhere to. selfishness and pride have NOTHING to do with it, if anything it take courage and humbleness to not consider yourself special, containing a soul, having a higher purpose, having an immortal soul, being CHOSEN on the right path as opposed to other people, having a spiritual protector and promise of ultimate justice.
as for those who blame god and not the envionment, its simple. as long as their loved one was not taken away by their OWN actions, than hte CREATOR of the world around them{god} is responsible for it. it makes perfect sense. atheists do not use TOOLS to validate their philosophy, it is infact THEISTS which have to use tools to validate their illogical beleifs. their is nothing illogical about atheism as there is nothing illogical about people who do not beleive in the invisible purple unicorn.
it is indeed lack of evidence and presence of evidence AGAINST the relegion that leads people away from it. and please tha last part is a disproven assumption, no1 is DENYING god. if that were true, then why are you so sure that its YOUR god that is the one true god? makes no sense.



but maybe you shud also try to be open minded about the possibility of atheists being partially or compleely right in their stance. science and theology CAN be very complex but even the simpler ones end up generally denying christianity/judaism/hinduism/islam etc. that is enough.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am so turned on right now.

But seriously, BF has a point. No he doesn't.

It's not like it is a 50-50 thing. Atheism is so way more likely that once you understood that, you will never be able to just switch on believing in God.

So, to answer your "why", Backfire, at least for me it is hard or almost impossible as I arrive at my conclusions through logically thinking about a topic, since...that just doesn't work with theism, I can't suddenly start believing that, cause even if I'd pretend to, my trust in science and logic would still tell me it isn't true, so it wouldn't be beliefing at all, but faking.


Kinda like what Christians do every day anyways.

Originally posted by Boris
Death is death.

What were you before you were born? Nothing.

What will you be after you die? Nothing.

Make the most of it now, cause there aint no 2nd chance!

So how many times have you died and return to the living to tell us this insight.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
So how many times have you died and return to the living to tell us this insight.

He got a point about the before you are born.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He got a point about the before you are born.

Not really, because before I was born mommy and daddy wanted a kid. Thus I came forth.

Ideas are the former....the results are the latter. So, I was the result of my parents idea of having a kid. My existance begin with my parents desire for a child. I didn't really came from nothing. I came from a desire and idea.

And so did my grandparents and my grandparents parents and so on. ....

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Not really, because before I was born mommy and daddy wanted a kid. Thus I came forth.

Ideas are the former....the results are the latter. So, I was the result of my parents idea of having a kid. My existance begin with my parents desire for a child. I didn't really came from nothing. I came from a desire and idea.

And so did my grandparents and my grandparents parents and so on. ....

But you had no consciousness, that could be the case after death just like it was before birth.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me.

Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

Being a believer in Islam,I can say that I do not fear death as much as u cuz I like many other believers of other religions I believe in an afterlife.

THis life simply can't be it.This world is a cruel and there are many ppl who get away with the bad things they do in this life and the injustice they do to others and most of the times,they get away with it.Does that mean those ppl who died bcuz of injustice will never get justice?Will their culprits never be punished?Ofcourse not.N the One who'll punish them is God.

Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

That's not the only logical way to prove God's existence.The existence of God is the most logical thing there is.For everything,there has to be a creator n for this universe,which has the most complex things,from microscopic organisms to the gigantic heavenly bodies floating around in space.U can't just say that everything came into being on it's own.u simply can't deny His existence cuz u can't see Him.

All I can say to you istop fearing death bud.If u've remained good in ur life,u shouldn't have anything to fear.This life is precious n it is given only once,but that also doesn't mean that u should do something ur creator does not want u to do.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you had no conscious, if that could be the case after death just like it was before birth.

Do you really need consicious to exist?

If the answer is yes then all materials things that are non-living (i.e. a rock, a piece of wood...etc...) don't exist.....is that the case?

HA!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Do you really need consicious to exist?

If the answer is yes then all materials things that are non-living (i.e. a rock, a piece of wood...etc...) don't exist.....is that the case?

HA!



That makes no sense whatsoever. Humans are defined by their conscioussness as well as a few other traits, those weren't existant before you were born (well, some time during the pregnancy of your mother), so "you" were indeed nothing. That the atoms that would create you one day existed already is of no matter. As that is not the point.


So....HA.

Originally posted by maham

Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So you're only good and do no wrong because you think you'll be punished in an afterlife? Is that the only reason you don't go around killing people?

What about instead of doing good and being good to get rewards, you do it just to be... erm.. nice?

Originally posted by maham
Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

A great example of the selfish side of religion, so many people are only inspired to be 'good' due to he reward of an after life and lots of fluffy clouds.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore Atheist and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

Then you are not an Atheist.

Originally posted by BackFire
That's the whole point of religious beliefs, though -- comfort and peace of mind, it's pleasing to think that when you die there is more, that you will meet all of your lost loved ones after you die, that there is a God who will make everything make sense after you die and who loves you and all that, so people believe in it.


No I cant prove for 100 percent that there is an afterlife, but that statement is downright insulting. It could well be argued that the whole point of religon is to believe that there is more tp physical reality and it doesnt neccesarily have to with making yourself happy.

Religons may believe in heaven but they also believe in hell as well.

Originally posted by Bardock42


That makes no sense whatsoever. Humans are defined by their conscioussness as well as a few other traits, those weren't existant before you were born (well, some time during the pregnancy of your mother), so "you" were indeed nothing. That the atoms that would create you one day existed already is of no matter. As that is not the point.


So....HA.

So what IS the point?

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic


Dude, if you're "scared" then convert. ermmsrug

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
So what IS the point? W-what I said.

Originally posted by Boris
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So you're only good and do no wrong because you think you'll be punished in an afterlife? Is that the only reason you don't go around killing people?

What about instead of doing good and being good to get rewards, you do it just to be... erm.. nice?
But what is nice? How du define nice? Y is it nice to do good.Infact,how wud tell good from bad if there wasn't a reward n a punishment in the end?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
A great example of the selfish side of religion, so many people are only inspired to be 'good' due to he reward of an after life and lots of fluffy clouds.
U may take it as that,but it's not exactly that.That's just the thing that sort of 'defines' the good thing.It's a part of it,but it's not all that.U do good things for the betterment of the ppl,for God n for the reward altogether.U usually don't think of it while ur doing something good to others,but u will be rewarded anyway.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

There is a place for everyone

What I meant by humbling oneself delt with commitment to God--in effect to have a relationship with God--instead of living as one wishes without consequence; this has nothing to do with feeling special--to highten ones persona. Such notions are self-imposed, and are often (more times than not) triggered by selfishness and/or pride. I think you are oversimplifying my statements; affirming a transcendent creator and belief in life after death--being a soulish creature--are knowledge that man is inherently born with. Environments and cultural upbringing do not teach such terms; I remember as a child pondering these things, but no one taught me this. It just came naturally, and I think all mankind experiences this mechanism; to what degree depends on the persons evironment and cutural upbringing. The thought of a transcendent creator and life after death--being a soulish creature--was present at birth. How can you deny this?



Exactly, but this directly (or indirectly) affirms knowledge in a transcendent creator! People don't get frustrated and/or angry with Santa Claus or the Flying Sphagetti Monster; because mankind, inherently, has no connection to them. They are false.



When people assume belief in a transcendent creator, they are assuming belief in something that surpasses life in the physical realm. Purple unicorns are comprised of testable "physical" attributes. Having belief in purple unicorns--in light of scientific and historical evidence--would be most absurd. Do you see the difference?



I respectfully disagree; all man is inherently conscience of a transcendent creator; if someone wishes to be intellectually lazy and ignore what they know naturally--that there is indeed something transcendent of life itself--than that is their choice; but despite what people of this caliber profess, they all know that a transcendent creator exists. That is precisely what I believe there is no such thing as an atheist--just people having a hard time managing the truth. When push comes to shove--namely death--the atheist will face the music. This has happened time and time again. My grandfather professed to be an atheist all his life; but on this death bed, he expressed faith. He was in denial his entire life, but not in this last days.



I became a Christian about 5 years ago. God Himself, science, and history lead me into faith. With all in mind, as I studied, it became apparent, that all atheists ever provided were philospohical arguments, and that lacked persuasive power in the long run. To me, the arguments were fueled by emotion, not evidence.

Aside from this, just to make a general statement about theology: having God incarnate in the flesh to give a living account, then to sacrifice Himself (as to ensure eternal life) was beautiful to me; on a deep level--on that I cannot put my finger on--it filled the void. A void that no on taught me to feel and/or experience. I was born with it, and I think that all man--to whatever degree--is born with these very feelings and experiences that I speak of.

That is the human condition, and it is not taught and governed by the environment. Where does that come from? And why is it present? All humans need are food, shelter, and the ability to procreate, right? For so many in the world, these things provide material to survive in life, having nothing to do with "living" life--to feel alive! Are you and I to assume, that we humans--despite our human condition--yearn for nothing?! I find that hard to swallow, and so do atheists.

Check out this thread--a little Q & A--that I opened that questions how humans experience life.

www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-467745-naturalism-v-theism.html

The above link to a thread is needlessly dualistic ushome, and attempts to cater to your viewpoint in the way you phrase the questions and choices.

Anyway, I'm shocked Pascal's Wager hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, given the subject, but I also realize that the wager's premise is rather juvenile when analyzed and generally only appeals to those who already believe in some eternal torment and think everyone else should too.

Also, to whomever is advocating simply deciding to believe, I'd challenge you to arbitrarily start believing in Santa Clause again. You might say you believe, you might go through the motions of beliefs (cookies and a letter, perhaps) but my guess is that you couldn't literally convince yourself to believe in him. For the majority of atheists, or even agnostics with a particular religion's deity, it's the same thing.

And to suggest that there isn't proof for either side doesn't justify belief, because if it did it would justify any belief at all, including Santa Clause or even more preposterous ideas. Claiming lack of proof might be objectively true, since all reality is a subjective experience, but it denies that we can know certain things based on logic and reasoning. The earth revolves around the sun, for example...objectively impossible to prove, but reasonable to accept as fact based on all known evidence and observations. The same is true of theism/atheism...no known claim of theists is backed by observed or observable evidence. If they're right, it's pure dumb luck, not anything having to to with the validity of their belief systems. Like Bardock said, it's hardly the coin flip scenario that the "no proof" argument seems to endorse.

....

Also, there's no ingrained sense of a creator hardwired into humans. It's culturally inherited, either from parents or the world around us. To suggest otherwise is nothing but fanciful speculation with no logical foundation.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Also, to whomever is advocating simply deciding to believe, I'd challenge you to arbitrarily start believing in Santa Clause again. You might say you believe, you might go through the motions of beliefs (cookies and a letter, perhaps) but my guess is that you couldn't literally convince yourself to believe in him.


For the majority of atheists, or even agnostics with a particular religion's deity, it's the same thing.


That really depends on what you believe some people believe that all possibilities exist within reality. They may not be able to prove that Santa Claus exists but they do believe he exists. eg parallel universes, astral plane



Originally posted by DigiMark007

And to suggest that there isn't proof for either side doesn't justify belief, because if it did it would justify any belief at all, including Santa Clause or even more preposterous ideas. Claiming lack of proof might be objectively true, since all reality is a subjective experience, but it denies that we can know certain things based on logic and reasoning. The earth revolves around the sun, for example...objectively impossible to prove, but reasonable to accept as fact based on all known evidence and observations. The same is true of theism/atheism...no known claim of theists is backed by observed or observable evidence. If they're right, it's pure dumb luck, not anything having to to with the validity of their belief systems. Like Bardock said, it's hardly the coin flip scenario that the "no proof" argument seems to endorse.

Think I would agree with that.


Originally posted by DigiMark007

Also, there's no ingrained sense of a creator hardwired into humans. It's culturally inherited, either from parents or the world around us. To suggest otherwise is nothing but fanciful speculation with no logical foundation.

Well it could be argued that there is no ingrained sense of atheism either.

How will people define reality when we can download our brains into computers? It seems to me that the more advanced we get the more difficult it will be to define reality.

I dont belive in Creatonism but it seems to me in the future it wont matter wether you can scientifically prove that the earth is more than 6000 years old when a persons reality will be able to be changed so easily.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me







Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic Try to stay healthy then.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The above link to a thread is needlessly dualistic ushome, and attempts to cater to your viewpoint in the way you phrase the questions and choices.

Anyway, I'm shocked Pascal's Wager hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, given the subject, but I also realize that the wager's premise is rather juvenile when analyzed and generally only appeals to those who already believe in some eternal torment and think everyone else should too.

Also, to whomever is advocating simply deciding to believe, I'd challenge you to arbitrarily start believing in Santa Clause again. You might say you believe, you might go through the motions of beliefs (cookies and a letter, perhaps) but my guess is that you couldn't literally convince yourself to believe in him. For the majority of atheists, or even agnostics with a particular religion's deity, it's the same thing.

And to suggest that there isn't proof for either side doesn't justify belief, because if it did it would justify any belief at all, including Santa Clause or even more preposterous ideas. Claiming lack of proof might be objectively true, since all reality is a subjective experience, but it denies that we can know certain things based on logic and reasoning. The earth revolves around the sun, for example...objectively impossible to prove, but reasonable to accept as fact based on all known evidence and observations. The same is true of theism/atheism...no known claim of theists is backed by observed or observable evidence. If they're right, it's pure dumb luck, not anything having to to with the validity of their belief systems. Like Bardock said, it's hardly the coin flip scenario that the "no proof" argument seems to endorse.

You'd rather have people live in fear and depression that believe in religion? That's insane.

If believing in Santa Claus or Cuthulu or Aketesh The Nine Headed Snake God of the Seas is comforting to you then that's what you should believe in, evidence be damned. It's unhealthy on many levels to avoid it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, there's no ingrained sense of a creator hardwired into humans. It's culturally inherited, either from parents or the world around us. To suggest otherwise is nothing but fanciful speculation with no logical foundation.

And that isn't?

Originally posted by Alfheim





Well it could be argued that there is no ingrained sense of atheism either.



Agree...

Ushomefree, why would god need a commitment?

Originally posted by Bardock42
No he doesn't.

It's not like it is a 50-50 thing. Atheism is so way more likely that once you understood that, you will never be able to just switch on believing in God.

So, to answer your "why", Backfire, at least for me it is hard or almost impossible as I arrive at my conclusions through logically thinking about a topic, since...that just doesn't work with theism, I can't suddenly start believing that, cause even if I'd pretend to, my trust in science and logic would still tell me it isn't true, so it wouldn't be beliefing at all, but faking.


Kinda like what Christians do every day anyways.

Has nothing to do with "understanding" anything. It's just something you believe. You say "understand" as if there is something legit and substantial to back it up, though you've presented nothing of the sort.

And why is it not possible that you can't arrive to a theistic conclusion through logical thinking? It's completely doable, and again, it's based purely on your subjective perspective, someoneisn't illogical for coming to the conclusion that they feel there is a God. Poor logic can be used to come to either conclusion, and good logic can be used to come to either conclusion.

I understand that if you deeply believe in something, it isn't going to be easy to change that belief, I presented my point improperly in my first post by suggesting such. However, if your beliefs are causing you such discomfort, as they are with the OP, then changing the beliefs so that you can be happy may be something worth considering, or trying, at least.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No I cant prove for 100 percent that there is an afterlife, but that statement is downright insulting. It could well be argued that the whole point of religon is to believe that there is more tp physical reality and it doesnt neccesarily have to with making yourself happy.

Religons may believe in heaven but they also believe in hell as well.

I don't know why you'd be insulted by that, you shouldn't be. Yes, religions believe there is more to physical reality, and why do they believe that? Because it brings them comfort and satisfaction, thinking that goodness awaits them after death. Like I said, I sincerely believe that everyone believes in whatever makes them happy and satisfied and bring them comfort.

Yes, they believe in Hell, but EVERYONE also believes that they aren't going to hell. No one who believes in Hell thinks that that's going to be their destination, it's just a way for them to justify their belief, and punish others who don't believe in what they do, which again, probably brings them happiness and satisfaction, which is admittedly sad and pathetic on their part.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That really depends on what you believe some people believe that all possibilities exist within reality. They may not be able to prove that Santa Claus exists but they do believe he exists. eg parallel universes, astral plane

Um, ok. But I'm not talking about them. I mentioned the majority of atheists/agnostic, not the minority of New Age thinkers who might belive such things.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well it could be argued that there is no ingrained sense of atheism either.

...which I never argued for either. In bringing down one position, it doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming the opposite. That would make me an ID apologist or something.

31

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You'd rather have people live in fear and depression that believe in religion? That's insane.

If believing in Santa Claus or Cuthulu or Aketesh The Nine Headed Snake God of the Seas is comforting to you then that's what you should believe in, evidence be damned. It's unhealthy on many levels to avoid it.

I'm completely at a loss as to how you twisted my message to make it seem like I'm advocating fear and depression.

Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.

If you can't logically get yourself to believe in something, how comforting would it be to do it anyway? If my well-being depended on me believing in Santa, I might try but I would still fail, and even if I succeeded I'd be believing a lie. The truth is its own end in many situations, and usually isn't a negative thing (especially in the case of religion).

People grow and change all the time. I always wondered why it's such a big, big, biggie deal to change beliefs if you find fault in it. Also, why people are criticized for breaking forth.


*puts headphones on*

I want to be a cowboy, and you can be my cowgirl

Ya know, Ted gets sooooooo dirty.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm completely at a loss as to how you twisted my message to make it seem like I'm advocating fear and depression.

nvm

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.

Why would you believe in a god like that? People have been creating personal philosophy forever (hence my example of the nonexistent Aketesh the Nine Headed Snake God). Established religion is simply one manifestation of comforting philosophy and it does not, as people seem to assume, involve living in fear.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If you can't logically get yourself to believe in something, how comforting would it be to do it anyway? If my well-being depended on me believing in Santa, I might try but I would still fail, and even if I succeeded I'd be believing a lie. The truth is its own end in many situations, and usually isn't a negative thing (especially in the case of religion).

Aren't we talking about the OP? He's afraid of death because he doesn't believe in an afterlife.

He doesn't have to believe in a god but it would almost certainly be good for him to believe in an afterlife of some sort.

This thread has certainly received a lot of posts. I addressed statements that leonheartmm presented, and I was waiting for a response; but all the posts on this thread have congested the topic. Its hard to keep up with, as you all know as well. In any case, Deju-vu, in terms of Christian theology, God does not require commitment. The post that you quoted me from delt with humbling oneself to God--to be committed and to live to for God, as opposed to living for oneself. In all fairness, perhaps you misunderstood my post? The quote that you posted--in conjunction with your question--is out of context. Again, God does not require commitment. Commitment, amongst other things, are by products of faith in God; the believer will make efforts to live a life pleasing to God. Biblical Christians--not that you think differently--make such sacrifices out of love, not fear. If Christians do, they have completely underminded the works of Jesus the Christ.

Originally posted by maham
Being a believer in Islam,I can say that I do not fear death as much as u cuz I like many other believers of other religions I believe in an afterlife.

THis life simply can't be it.This world is a cruel and there are many ppl who get away with the bad things they do in this life and the injustice they do to others and most of the times,they get away with it.Does that mean those ppl who died bcuz of injustice will never get justice?Will their culprits never be punished?Ofcourse not.N the One who'll punish them is God.

Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

That's not the only logical way to prove God's existence.The existence of God is the most logical thing there is.For everything,there has to be a creator n for this universe,which has the most complex things,from microscopic organisms to the gigantic heavenly bodies floating around in space.U can't just say that everything came into being on it's own.u simply can't deny His existence cuz u can't see Him.

All I can say to you istop fearing death bud.If u've remained good in ur life,u shouldn't have anything to fear.This life is precious n it is given only once,but that also doesn't mean that u should do something ur creator does not want u to do.

you are the biggest idiot i have EVER met. you believe that because some people are wicked they will get punished? your ideals are laughable. this is the REAL world. not the bible, not the quran, not the torah. there is no rhyme or reason to why things happen. they just do. and there's no devine justice or being waiting at the end. we do what we do, we are what we are.

btw I CAN deny his presence because i cant see him, because guess what? thats what LOGICAL people do. i cant see it, smell it, touch it, detect it, or find any proof he/it existed? what does that mean children? IT ISNT THERE.

why we should do good or bad? because of A: your morals Bunishment by your peers or C: a reward for good deeds. if you need a god to do whats "right" then you sir are an empty being.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.


well of course he's ornery, he has no friends, which is why he created people. he sounds like a mischeivious litle man, like say pinocchio creater. except he created a shitload of rules and said if you dont obey ill have satan torture you for eternity. i agree with jason scott lee's character from dogma. id rather not exist than be in hell. not only because im being torture, but because i am mandetorily being forced to obey some ******* i dont believe in.

The big EH, are you still referencing this thread?

DigiMark007, your account of the creator--of what I assume to be the Christian God--does not set "arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them." Context must have a pretext; its no wonder you left the faith! God has devised guidelines for man to ensure and provide an abundant and joyful life. It is no different than parenting, if you will. If everyone followed the commandments given to men, the world would be completely different. Despite our differences in opinion, I'm sure you can appreciate that point. Jesus summed all the commandments by saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself." And God's guidelines for man are not vague; hence the reason people reject God on that premise alone; and God does not threaten people with eternal damnation. God always sent a prophet to serve warning prior to judgment of any nation in the Old Testament. God gave warining, not threats! God--by His very nature--is holy and righteous; God is a judge--one of many characteristics--and rebellion and sin will not be tolerated. Lord forbid you ever through a party (and established rules for your guests), only to ask persons to leave that could not respect your guidelines. Its your house; you have that right! God is no different, my friend. You may disagree, but the least you could do is speak "accurately" about how the Bible discribes God.

And chickenlover98, God did not create life to "have friends." God created life to share it with Him. If your conviction is that strong, don't ever father children; because your bringing children into the world would have nothing to do with love, but only to serve a means to an end. And hell is not a torture chamber; hell is seperation from God Himself--the source of everything. Hell is a place of contempt, because, in hell, people will know that they have been seperated from all the matters. People in hell get what they wanted all their lives, namely, seperation from God. Seriously, I'm not trying to speak as if I'm the source of all knowledge, but have you really taken the time to study the Bible fairly?

Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007, your account of the creator--of what I assume to be the Christian God--does not set "arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them." Context must have a pretext; its no wonder you left the faith! God has devised guidelines for man to ensure and provide an abundant and joyful life. It is no different than parenting, if you will. If everyone followed the commandments given to men, the world would be completely different. Despite our differences in opinion, I'm sure you can appreciate that point. Jesus summed all the commandments by saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself." And God's guidelines for man are not vague; hence the reason people reject God on that premise alone; and God does not threaten people with eternal damnation. God always sent a prophet to serve warning prior to judgment of any nation in the Old Testament. God gave warining, not threats! God--by His very nature--is holy and righteous; God is a judge--one of many characteristics--and rebellion and sin will not be tolerated. Lord forbid you ever through a party (and established rules for your guests), only to ask persons to leave that could not respect your guidelines. Its your house; you have that right! God is no different, my friend. You may disagree, but the least you could do is speak "accurately" about how the Bible discribes God. fairly?

You're splitting hairs

I'm not trying to create a big fuss (ha ha ha)! But if we are to discuss topics encompassing theology, let's have a general idea of what we are talking about. Moreoever, let's not speak harshly. Everyone of this forum has things to contribute, but they do it in such poor fashion. I'm not speaking of anyone specifically; I'm making this statement in general. And thanks for the misquote.

Originally posted by maham
Being a believer in Islam,I can say that I do not fear death as much as u cuz I like many other believers of other religions I believe in an afterlife.

THis life simply can't be it.This world is a cruel and there are many ppl who get away with the bad things they do in this life and the injustice they do to others and most of the times,they get away with it.Does that mean those ppl who died bcuz of injustice will never get justice?Will their culprits never be punished?Ofcourse not.N the One who'll punish them is God.

Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

That's not the only logical way to prove God's existence.The existence of God is the most logical thing there is.For everything,there has to be a creator n for this universe,which has the most complex things,from microscopic organisms to the gigantic heavenly bodies floating around in space.U can't just say that everything came into being on it's own.u simply can't deny His existence cuz u can't see Him.

All I can say to you istop fearing death bud.If u've remained good in ur life,u shouldn't have anything to fear.This life is precious n it is given only once,but that also doesn't mean that u should do something ur creator does not want u to do.

just because this world is unfair isnt reason enough to beleive that there HAS to be ultimate fairness. that wud just be wishful thinking.

and really, if the only reason you do "good" is to expect a rewrad then it isnt "good" is it. its like a job where ur getting paid. real good wud be doing sumthing selflessly. and there are plenty of reasons to be good and not bad in this world even without a hereafter.

as for the god thing, if everything has to be created and god created it. then who created god????? why is god exempted from the idea that everything must be created?

atheism does not mean living without thinking of consequences, there are as many good atheists as there are bad atheists. basically, you do not need a reason to be good to others and yourself. atheism as i said before does not have much to do with selfishness and pride, you are merely trying to rationalise spite against atheists and trying to define them as bad selfish people who know that god is true but the only reason they do not beleive in him is due to their ego. that is a complete lie but if you so wish, you can beleive it and feal comfortable in your own little reality. enviornment and upbringing COMPLETELY teach such things, everything from language to the notiona of trinity to jesus dying on the cross to a heaven and hell are taught by society. that is why people in different society beleive in different thigns and the things they beleive in are mostly the same as the society around them. i can deny this because i was taught these concepts and i did not know them before that nor wud have ever guessed. i challenge you to produce people who have never ever heard of christian concepts in their life and yet beleive in all the basics of christianity.





no it does not, they blame god first and then realise that god is not what he was supposed to be, then they question the idea that well, if god isnt good/fair or watever, because of whats happened to em, then why am i so sure that he is everything else he claimed to be. then they becaomse atheists because they let go of the basic conception of god altogether. ofcourse they still might have hate or anger towards him but that is an emotional responce, not an intellectual one. they do not get afraid of all the other things because they were never taught they existed, if they had, then theyd be afraid of em, just like greeks got angry with their god etc. countless examples.



not really, invisible purple unicorns also surpass life in the physical realm,, as they do not exist in the physical realm when your looking for them. just like shiva or brahma or zeus or allah or medusah. no difference, they are all untestable hypothesis with no logical evidence to suggest them. and please, do not confuse beleif in mysticism/things that trancend this physical world and christianity, they are two different things.



untrue. no1 is concios of a trancendant creator unless they are told about such things. it has nuthing to do with being intellectually lazy. abd again, you are mixing trancendance with christianity, they are two different things. also, i happen to be one of those people, yet i do not NATURALLY know anything about god especially not of a specifically CHRISTIAN god. that is just a very convenient self delusion. also, the said TRUTH has time and time again been proven to be self contradictory and illogical.

and the last part is disproven propaganda. most atheists do NOT convert at the time of death. maybe your grandfather did but that is irrelevant. no1 said that being an atheist can not be scary just like staying clean of drugs doesnt make life easy. atheists can get scared too of the possibility of dying, they just dont invent delusions to get around the fact.


not true, atheists provide arguments from physical sciences, history, anthropology and logic as WELL as philosophy. infact it is FAITH in god which is fuelled by emotion and lack of evidence.



and to some, strapping bombs on themselves and blwoing themselves up in the middle of innocents is beautiful. while to others beleif in wicca is beautiful, it fills many viods. yet, is that true?






curiosity is a human condition, yes. so is being egotistical and self deluding to find a comfortable reality. we do yearn for many things, but that does not mean those thigns will happen{like a person whose lost a loved one yearns for the revival of said loved one} . and there are plenty of reasons to beleive that there is MORE, just no reasons to beleive{and reasons infact to NOT beleive} the specific type of MORE set up by most theists and christians. i myself definately beleive that there is sumthing more, i have seen evidence for it, both in the physical world and in so called "philosophy" {a lot of which is really logic and not vague attempts at PROFOUNDNESS}. yet it isnt the MORE that christians talk about.

n thanks, ill check out the question and answers section when i get time.

peace.

Originally posted by ushomefree
And chickenlover98, God did not create life to "have friends." God created life to share it with Him. If your conviction is that strong, don't ever father children; because your bringing children into the world would have nothing to do with love, but only to serve a means to an end. And hell is not a torture chamber; hell is seperation from God Himself--the source of everything. Hell is a place of contempt, because, in hell, people will know that they have been seperated from all the matters. People in hell get what they wanted all their lives, namely, seperation from God. Seriously, I'm not trying to speak as if I'm the source of all knowledge, but have you really taken the time to study the Bible fairly?

if hell is seperation from god, we're already there *******. and dont preach to me. ESPECIALLY when u use big azz bold lettering for no reason. i see no reason to believe in a god, is a watcher. a doer, maybe id be happier with. i have no time to waste praying to some god who judges you. everyone should be happy at death. (except the crazies). think of god as "big brother" no one likes the government watching you. why is it any different with god? no one likes being judged, or imprisoned. the fact that you choose to be judged when yu could as easily be not is disturbing. have fun with that comparison, because it really is the same thing

The questions you presented are fair inquiry; and I will attempt to address them logically. In reading my response, I need you to give me the benefit of the doubt--if only for a moment--and try to internalize my reasoning. First, wrap your mind around the possibility of additional dimensions that we human beings are subjected and governed--dimensions outside of length, width, and space-time. Just like dimensions we human beings inhabit, additional dimensions exhibit characteristics also. In other words, dimension "A" is subjected and governed by different physics than dimension "B." Characteristics in dimension "A" or not possible in dimension "B."

To correlate this analogy into a useful example, let's pretend that dimension "A" is the foundation of a transcendent creator (TC), and dimension "B" is an additional dimension created by the TC at will; if all is true, we must not apply characteristics that apply in dimension "B" to dimension "A." We must note, that dimensions "A" and "B" are fundamentally different as we progress further in this post. The TC (or God) is not subjected and governed by the physics found in dimension "B"--the cosmos, if you will. God is eternal and resides in a different dimension that we human beings. In our dimension, everything--even down to Q-tips--needs a creator. In the dimension that God resides, everything is eternal. If we make the error and "restrict" the dimension in which God resides to our own, than we fall into mathematical absurdity; let me explain.

We have two choices: (1) an eternal transcendent creator exists that created the cosmos at will, or (2) the transcendent creator that created the cosmos required a creator, and the TC that created the TC that created the cosmos required a creator. To get to the core of the issue, if option (2) were correct, the lineage of transcendent creators could be viewed much like a number repeating itself--numbers that we calculate in long division, for example. Utilizing information provided in this analogy, it would be a safe conclusion to hold fast to option (1). Logically, it makes sense, and it does not require a vast stretch of the imagination. Moreover, it is the most simplistic, namely, an eternal God--residing in a fundamentally different dimension--created the cosmos and does not require a creator.

I think this is a simple, but powerful analogy. I could be wrong, but I adhere to option (1). If you disagree, can you at least understand my position, not to mention respect it?

leonheart, dont you love it how many misconceptions ushomefree has with atheism? we dont believe in god so we're evil, we all convert at death. really ushomefree have u ever been friends with an atheist. have you ever had a conversation with them. haveyou walked with one(extreme example coming up) and see a small child being beatin and the atheist just laughs? you honestly think we have no feelings/morals? i pity you

Originally posted by ushomefree
The questions you presented are fair inquiry; and I will attempt to address them logically. In reading my response, I need you to give me the benefit of the doubt--if only for a moment--and try to internalize my reasoning. First, wrap your mind around the possibility of additional dimensions that we human beings are subjected and governed--dimensions outside of length, width, and space-time. Just like dimensions we human beings inhabit, additional dimensions exhibit characteristics also. In other words, dimension "A" is subjected and governed by different physics than dimension "B." Characteristics in dimension "A" or not possible in dimension "B."

To correlate this analogy into a useful example, let's pretend that dimension "A" is the foundation of a transcendent creator (TC), and dimension "B" is an additional dimension created by the TC at will; if all is true, we must not apply characteristics that apply in dimension "B" to dimension "A." We must note, that dimensions "A" and "B" are fundamentally different as we progress further in this post. The TC (or God) is not subjected and governed by the physics found in dimension "B"--the cosmos, if you will. God is eternal and resides in a different dimension that we human beings. In our dimension, everything--even down to Q-tips--needs a creator. In the dimension that God resides, everything is eternal. If we make the error and "restrict" the dimension in which God resides to our own, than we fall into mathematical absurdity; let me explain.

We have two choices: (1) an eternal transcendent creator exists that created the cosmos at will, or (2) the transcendent creator that created the cosmos required a creator, and the TC that created the TC that created the cosmos required a creator. To get to the core of the issue, if option (2) were correct, the lineage of transcendent creators could be viewed much like a number repeating itself--numbers that we calculate in long division, for example. Utilizing information provided in this analogy, it would be a safe conclusion to hold fast to option (1). Logically, it makes sense, and it does not require a vast stretch of the imagination. Moreover, it is the most simplistic, namely, an eternal God--residing in a fundamentally different dimension--created the cosmos and does not require a creator.

I think this is a simple, but powerful analogy. I could be wrong, but I adhere to option (1). If you disagree, can you at least understand my position, not to mention respect it?

hey buddy ive got news for you, the simple answer isnt always the right answer

One of my best friends--a guy I've known since Middle School--is an atheist; we have a great friendship, and we talk over topics like this all the time. In any case, I have never--absolutely never--claimed that atheists are evil. For one, such as yourself, speaking on issues regarding morality, why do you speak untruths about me?

Originally posted by ushomefree
The questions you presented are fair inquiry; and I will attempt to address them logically. In reading my response, I need you to give me the benefit of the doubt--if only for a moment--and try to internalize my reasoning. First, wrap your mind around the possibility of additional dimensions that we human beings are subjected and governed--dimensions outside of length, width, and space-time. Just like dimensions we human beings inhabit, additional dimensions exhibit characteristics also. In other words, dimension "A" is subjected and governed by different physics than dimension "B." Characteristics in dimension "A" or not possible in dimension "B."

To correlate this analogy into a useful example, let's pretend that dimension "A" is the foundation of a transcendent creator (TC), and dimension "B" is an additional dimension created by the TC at will; if all is true, we must not apply characteristics that apply in dimension "B" to dimension "A." We must note, that dimensions "A" and "B" are fundamentally different as we progress further in this post. The TC (or God) is not subjected and governed by the physics found in dimension "B"--the cosmos, if you will. God is eternal and resides in a different dimension that we human beings. In our dimension, everything--even down to Q-tips--needs a creator. In the dimension that God resides, everything is eternal. If we make the error and "restrict" the dimension in which God resides to our own, than we fall into mathematical absurdity; let me explain.

We have two choices: (1) an eternal transcendent creator exists that created the cosmos at will, or (2) the transcendent creator that created the cosmos required a creator, and the TC that created the TC that created the cosmos required a creator. To get to the core of the issue, if option (2) were correct, the lineage of transcendent creators could be viewed much like a number repeating itself--numbers that we calculate in long division, for example. Utilizing information provided in this analogy, it would be a safe conclusion to hold fast to option (1). Logically, it makes sense, and it does not require a vast stretch of the imagination. Moreover, it is the most simplistic, namely, an eternal God--residing in a fundamentally different dimension--created the cosmos and does not require a creator.

I think this is a simple, but powerful analogy. I could be wrong, but I adhere to option (1). If you disagree, can you at least understand my position, not to mention respect it?

as far as the original analogy i gave goes, you are ignoring sum facts. we can NOT use the argument that all things are created. all we have seen are different already existing things TRANSITIONING, and hence it is just as applicable to say that this existance/universe has ALWAYS been here in some form or another as opposed to having to be created. soi think it is fair to challenge te first cause argument.

as for the analogy you gave above of different dimension, i completely agree. that is possible and not contradictory. however, even at the basis, you are forgetting sumthing. if the trancendant{althoug it isnt fair to call such a being trancendant as he is confined by the dimension he exists in} creator is SO far removed from all the concepts that define OUR lower dimension, then there is no REASON to follow the thinking of this trancendant creator in our dimension. let me give you an example, say this creator is beyond the concepts of creation and destruction, and he chooses complete and utter destruction{soul and all} for our lower dimension. wud it be logical/moral/right to kill ourselves and every1 here PERMANENTLY on his orders???? no it wudnt. please read my views on logical morality and the concepts that define us in other threads here, ull understand.

also, the PROBLEM with using such basic analogies is that god is never claimed to be trancedant in the bible. just all powerful and all knowing. there is a differnece. trancendance can not be confined by definitions but the above two ARE definitions. also, the gods of the bible is VERY human in thinking{i.e. petty thinking, judgement/ego/rules/punishment/reward}, and him giving certain preferrable RULES or laws to begin with starts giving god PREFERENCES, hence taking away from his TRANCENDANCE. also, u might wanna dig up a thread i made a while ago "why did god nead to create ANYTHING AT ALL" this concept is more elaborated on there. the god of the bible doesnt make sense as i said.

Leonheartmm-

I appreciate your respectful post; it is pleasing to see that some people still have the capacity to act like adults. I will respond to your post, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. For me, it is time to sleep. It is almost 2 in the AM. Take care.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Leonheartmm-

I appreciate your respectful post; it is pleasing to see that some people still have the capacity to act like adults. I will respond to your post, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. For me, it is time to sleep. It is almost 2 in the AM. Take care.

funny thing...im not an adult

cut it out both of you. thnx ushom. but im still ur opposition here

Originally posted by DigiMark007


...which I never argued for either. In bringing down one position, it doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming the opposite. That would make me an ID apologist or something.

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No you didnt but I thought id mention that point anyway.

Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007, your account of the creator--of what I assume to be the Christian God--does not set "arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them." Context must have a pretext; its no wonder you left the faith!

lulz.

I was a devout Christian for a good long time. I'm well-aware of who their God is. But if this is what it takes for you to understand why I left the faith, you haven't really been reading most of what I write in this forum. If my reasons for leaving were problems with self-made metaphors of God as an angry parent, I'd probably mock myself for such vapid logic.

Originally posted by BackFire
Has nothing to do with "understanding" anything. It's just something you believe. You say "understand" as if there is something legit and substantial to back it up, though you've presented nothing of the sort.

And why is it not possible that you can't arrive to a theistic conclusion through logical thinking? It's completely doable, and again, it's based purely on your subjective perspective, someoneisn't illogical for coming to the conclusion that they feel there is a God. Poor logic can be used to come to either conclusion, and good logic can be used to come to either conclusion.

I understand that if you deeply believe in something, it isn't going to be easy to change that belief, I presented my point improperly in my first post by suggesting such. However, if your beliefs are causing you such discomfort, as they are with the OP, then changing the beliefs so that you can be happy may be something worth considering, or trying, at least.


There's no good or bad logic. I wasn't specific though, I meant that for it to change you would have to change such fundamental axioms of your thinking that, I'd think it would be very hard to do. I agree with Dawkins, for the reasons he names, that atheism is way more likely to our universe and life than a sort of theism, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Either way it is not easy to change your fundamental believes. To me, I think, it would be impossible.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
there is no rhyme or reason to why things happen. they just do. and there's no devine justice or being waiting at the end. we do what we do, we are what we are.

Funny,ur trying to be logical and yet being the most illogical person.'Things happen cuz ...they just happen.' Right.So much for the 'logical ppl',eh?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
btw I CAN deny his presence because i cant see him, because guess what? thats what LOGICAL people do. i cant see it, smell it, touch it, detect it, or find any proof he/it existed? what does that mean children? IT ISNT THERE.
Have u seen ur brain? Have u smelt it?touched it?tasted it or heard?
Then,'logically',it isn't there.(n I'm damn sure abt that)

Originally posted by chickenlover98
why we should do good or bad? because of A: your morals Bunishment by your peers or C: a reward for good deeds. if you need a god to do whats "right" then you sir are an empty being.

What morals? How du make a set of deed morals? Just cuz ur parents told u that helpin an old lady cross the road is good,ur gonna do it n name it as one of ur 'morals'.But how du know what's good.How can u separate a group of deeds and mark them as good n some as bad? It was God Who told us what was right n He wanted us to do it n to encourage us,He told us abt the reward otherwise doing good 'logically' has no personal benefits.

what he MEANT to say was that outside basic physical causes, things dont have to have some greater supernatural or divine reasoning behind them. they just happen randomly like the pattern of raindrops.



ahan, a lot of people have, there is emperical evidence for it, there are pictures taken and felt and smelled of other people's brains. u dont have to open every1's brains to find out its there or beleive its there.



humanistic morals do not require divine guidance or judgement. it is logically based on the things that define use like collective self presevation, collective desire to not suffere, collective logical reasoning which tells us that no1 is at their basis, superior to any1 else, and collective desire to love others and be loved.

infact god of islam/christianity/judaism/hinduism among others quite often gives very negetive commandments and morals which are completly against the above stated logical principals.

Originally posted by maham
Funny,ur trying to be logical and yet being the most illogical person.'Things happen cuz ...they just happen.' Right.So much for the 'logical ppl',eh?


Have u seen ur brain? Have u smelt it?touched it?tasted it or heard?
Then,'logically',it isn't there.(n I'm damn sure abt that)



What morals? How du make a set of deed morals? Just cuz ur parents told u that helpin an old lady cross the road is good,ur gonna do it n name it as one of ur 'morals'.But how du know what's good.How can u separate a group of deeds and mark them as good n some as bad? It was God Who told us what was right n He wanted us to do it n to encourage us,He told us abt the reward otherwise doing good 'logically' has no personal benefits.

A: o and saying things happen because of......."god" is SSOOOOOOO much more logical right?

B: have i personally cut open my head and seen my brain? well the obvious answer is no. have we dissected humans before? OBVIOUSLY yes, so its there, there's no queston. you can detect it with radiowaves and other scans. can you detect god with ANYTHING?? the answer is NO


C: news for you buddy, your experiences and your parents teach you alot ie: MORALS. i said i could have good/bad morals without belief in god. actually i think we're naturally born with good intentions(for the most part) i mean if you were born on an island and your family dies at say age 7. you survive on ur own and you find someone about to die you'd probably help them, because u have morals. not because god said do this, because you yourself did it. of course people tell us whats good in most cases, however saying that because god said to do it, it must be right, is not a good way to look at it

Originally posted by leonheartmm
what he MEANT to say was that outside basic physical causes, things dont have to have some greater supernatural or divine reasoning behind them. they just happen randomly like the pattern of raindrops.



ahan, a lot of people have, there is emperical evidence for it, there are pictures taken and felt and smelled of other people's brains. u dont have to open every1's brains to find out its there or beleive its there.



humanistic morals do not require divine guidance or judgement. it is logically based on the things that define use like collective self presevation, collective desire to not suffere, collective logical reasoning which tells us that no1 is at their basis, superior to any1 else, and collective desire to love others and be loved.

infact god of islam/christianity/judaism/hinduism among others quite often gives very negetive commandments and morals which are completly against the above stated logical principals.

leonheart im so touched that you would defend me.

anyways DANCING BANANA

lol, i wasnt defending u, i just thought she was being unreasonably literal in here interpretation.

and anyway, "she" isnt a pal, "she" is a girl and maybe it wudnt hurt to go easy on her. i mean, no reason to be hostile right?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol, i wasnt defending u, i just thought she was being unreasonably literal in here interpretation.

and anyway, "she" isnt a pal, "she" is a girl and maybe it wudnt hurt to go easy on her. i mean, no reason to be hostile right?

well, im sick of people with one way ideals. with things so set in stone like that. people who think EVERYTHING is based on god. even if there is there is a god, not everything is controlled by him. and i didnt realize it wa a she, but i have no softer feelings toward a woman in a debate. i dont go easy on girls, why should I? they want to be treated equally, they're gonna get equal

Originally posted by leonheartmm
collective logical reasoning which tells us that no1 is at their basis, superior to any1 else

What do you mean by "at their basis"? There are plenty of examples of people who surpass their peers by a wide margin.

in performance, yes, perhaps. but there are many types of performances, not all utilised, and it may be due to nurture. furthermore, it generally has nuthing to do with the person's OWN merit{i.e. THEY didnt make themselves smarter, they were born that way} and perhaps they are not deserving of any special treatment as such. but basicaly i wud say, that such PERFORMANCE based attributes are more than overshadowed by the significance of a conciousness/soul/awareness, than lack thereoff. the point is that conciousness itself is such a huge step from unconciousness that any being who can claim to be even a little sentient, has the percentage significance of their sentience, overshadow their minor abilities{even if it is einstien} so basically, all sentiences{i.e. sense of self/conciousness, which is the most basic thing} are equal and not one deserving of more than the other. naturals level of intelligence{again fiercely debated} are at best a gift or chance happening that the sentience itself didnt deserve by default ove rits peers. be grateful for it, not make yourself feal superior to others with it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
in performance, yes, perhaps. but there are many types of performances, not all utilised, and it may be due to nurture. furthermore, it generally has nuthing to do with the person's OWN merit{i.e. THEY didnt make themselves smarter, they were born that way} and perhaps they are not deserving of any special treatment as such. but basicaly i wud say, that such PERFORMANCE based attributes are more than overshadowed by the significance of a conciousness/soul/awareness, than lack thereoff. the point is that conciousness itself is such a huge step from unconciousness that any being who can claim to be even a little sentient, has the percentage significance of their sentience, overshadow their minor abilities{even if it is einstien} so basically, all sentiences{i.e. sense of self/conciousness, which is the most basic thing} are equal and not one deserving of more than the other. naturals level of intelligence{again fiercely debated} are at best a gift or chance happening that the sentience itself didnt deserve by default ove rits peers. be grateful for it, not make yourself feal superior to others with it.

But if a person (even by accident of genetics) is of greater value to the community than most that person should logically be put ahead of a person who is of abnormally less use to the community.

If one person can provide food for half the group and another can barely move you cannot really say their value, in the eyes of society, should be equal. It's a nice sentiment to say that everyone is of the same value but they simply won't be, even if you try to believe it you'll treat some people as superior. In fact that's probably part of the reason that religion spreads so well among people who are poor or born crippled (ie society has no use for you but Aktesh will find a place for you).

tis not about social value and what they can provide. it is about the value of "life"/existance/conciousness that they posess. that far outwieghs their social importance. they need to have basic rights and no discrimination because their conciousness did not CHOOSE the way they are. it is conciousness/soul which is worthy of significance and importance to me, not just physical attributes, those are not very significant. also, i said no different at their BASIS, they are equal. doesnt mean every1 in grownup society shud get the same economic rewards irrespective of work{as long as they are both able bodied}.
however, my point was more directed towards any1 claiming superiority in CONCIOUSNESS or EXISTANCE or inherent rights as a higher being. this leads to basic fairness. "i.e. all humans are BORN equal".

Originally posted by leonheartmm
tis not about social value and what they can provide. it is about the value of "life"/existance/conciousness that they posess. that far outwieghs their social importance. they need to have basic rights and no discrimination because their conciousness did not CHOOSE the way they are. it is conciousness/soul which is worthy of significance and importance to me, not just physical attributes, those are not very significant. also, i said no different at their BASIS, they are equal. doesnt mean every1 in grownup society shud get the same economic rewards irrespective of work{as long as they are both able bodied}.
however, my point was more directed towards any1 claiming superiority in CONCIOUSNESS or EXISTANCE or inherent rights as a higher being. this leads to basic fairness. "i.e. all humans are BORN equal".

I see. Very well.

Bible quotes = null and void argument!

The Bible is bullshit, it can't be used in a discussion.

Well, you'll never know if you're right.

what if the Bible is really right???

Originally posted by Deja~vu
what if the Bible is really right???

The problem is not if the bible is right, but who's interpretation is right. There is an endless number of ways of interpreting the bible.

My interpretation is right!!!

no we do not. this is a popular misonception. btw which theory are you talking about. if it is e=mc squared, then you are wrong. all that has to say about the universe is that the sum of matter and energies in the universe can neither be created nor be destroyed but can transition from one form to another {mass-energy or energy-mass}. now that is all fine and dandy, but there is a problem. it doesnt tell us that the currently existing energy and mass sum had to be CREATED, it just means it can not be creatED anymore, it couls just as well have eternally existed in one form or another. {btw, the most testable and reliable theory is quantum mechanics, not reletivity}. einstien's theory gives us no reason to beleive that there was ever a FIRST CAUSE. also, if you are talking abotu the BIG BANG theory, then you also have to accept sum other things. even though much work here is hypothetical or weak theory based, there is mountainloads of evidence suggecting that even before the universe existed, there wasnt NOTHING, it just existed in OTHER transitioning synamic dimensions, so in a way, this EXISTANCE has been here in one way or another, this universe is just one reality which arose due to it. then you have to ask yourself, {because first cause isnt just the universe but EVERYTHING} has this EXISTANCE, even if it wasnt the universe we see today, existed in sum form or another for eternity{because it exists in higher dimensions even without the TIME dimension} without first cause????



no no it does, and that is one of the shortcomings of concepts like omnipotence. inevitably there shall be things that the being can not DO{even if it is just the creation of a being more powerful than themself or taking away their OWN omnipotence} and that wud take away omnipotence because there can be NOTHING that an omnipotent entity can not DO. also, even if the other dimension is FAR more brilliant than ours, that still does not mean it is INFINITELY more brilliant than ours and hence not perfect or complete or ultimate.

the last part ill deal with in the next paragraph.



sigh, we ARE sumthing to judge. ill give you an example. you create a robot, who is concious and aware and you program basic needs and desires in him including wanting to be loved, not desiring suffering and desiring self preservation. now if you were to go ahead and give this robot the command to kill itself, it would infact be YOU who is in the wrong and not the machine if the machine doesnt follow your orders. it is becaue YOU are responsible for creating and assigning those concepts to your creation and as such you are responsible for making it so that those concepts are fulfilled in the world and not negated. as such, if the robot;s defining concepts are in conflict wiht your and it FURTHER is defined by self preservation{preserving ALL the concepts that define itself} than the being is completely in the right and completely logical for opposing your commands. you wud be in the wrong here.

as for god, there is a slight difference. unlike human creators, god is beyond good and bad{potentially} and as such unlike humans, he can not be BLAMED for choosing to command the humans to choose death over life{after all empathy etc dont have to be his attributes, a trancendant beign is so beyond them that he can unbioasly choose destruction just as well as creation or preservation}, HOWEVER that does not mean the HUMANS can be blamed for rejecting such an order either{because of the robot analogy and definin concepts as well as self preservation as i described before} . so no1 is to blame. god is too trancendant to be able to truly see things the way humans see it{hence the idea of avatars as in hinduism and stuff seems so appropriate to me if god is omnipotent} and we humans are defined by certain concepts which make us deny any orders against those very basic defining concepts. u can think of god as an innocent child with an anthill here. not understanding the plight of the poor ants, the child might kill them all, and tryign to defend themselves, the ants cud choose to nto do what the child wants them.



i read the above but they do not strilke me as very trancendant. dont get me wrong, there is definately suggestions of beign beyond logic in one form or another. but the thing is, that TRANCENDANCE, is a completely undescribeable property so the second you start defining it, it isnt trancendance anymore. that is why many also beleive{among other reasons} that it is an inconsistant or non existing property.



maybe, but i think my argument of specific preferences and such human qualities denyin "trancendance" still remains. and personally i find that even the most well read or respected theoligians of christianity can not provide consistant explanations or wholistically logical explanations for the content of the bible. i think therefore that the bible is not a book by an all powerful divine creator and sustainer, one who simultaneously posesses all the qualities that bible attributes to him. it is more probable{although in my oppinion still very improbable on a whole} that it is from A god as opposed to THE god. and it is most probable that it is made up by humans. that holds true for all relegious scriptures i think.

Scientists say that near death experiences (the whole white light at the end of the tunnel thing) can be explained scientifically and that its all in our heads. But to me that doesn't make it any less real and I'm fine if thats all that it is. I think there's plenty of proof here on earth of there being a reason for life.

Originally posted by cococryspies
Scientists say that near death experiences (the whole white light at the end of the tunnel thing) can be explained scientifically and that its all in our heads. But to me that doesn't make it any less real and I'm fine if thats all that it is. I think there's plenty of proof here on earth of there being a reason for life.

You're right, it's completely explainable via normal (i.e. non-religious or supernatural) means. If you're interested, I can link you to a few videos that explain the whole mess, or even just summarize it, but it sounds like you're not too concerned with it.

Originally posted by BackFire
Because you know those are actually false, there is proof against them.

There is no valid evidence or proof for or against God eixisting, both sides have the same evidence (none), so altering beliefs to cause comfort should be fairly easy -- people do it all the time. god knows if your faking

Originally posted by Boris
Bible quotes = null and void argument!

The Bible is bullshit, it can't be used in a discussion.

And why can't it? You don't look towards a quantum physics book to explain a course on aquatic life do you? You use a quantum physics book in quantum physics discussion and a Bible/Quran/Torah in religious discussion. Last time I checked, this was a Religion forum.

Originally posted by red g jacks
god knows if your faking

So do women. Should I worship them?

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Digi actually made a funny.