what would you have done differently in the Dragonball series

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ankur29
if you coudl what would you have done differently in the Dragonball series
including both dbz & gt?

heres a few things i woudl have done

1) establish proper consistent charecter physical stats
2) have goku teach all the z fighters instant transmission especailly piccolo,kuririn and vegeta
3) have no ssj4 ...was riducluous
4) greater use of gogeta from the fusion movie but in the series
5) unsure about this but have vegeta go ssj3 which should be the final saiyan transformation
6) have tiensha as a fusion charecter aswell
7) not fuse uub with mister buu
8)stay consistent with power levels how does a goku at eth start of teh show start with enough power to blow up a moon but eventually get stronger but inflict less damage

...thoughts...

Symmetric Chaos
Slow or stop the power escalation.

-or-

Give the characters interesting abilities. Changing the color of a laser beam doesn't cut for me.

-or-

Not made it.

If you haven't guessed I'm not really a DragonBall fan.

chickenlover98
consistent PL would be great. i too noticed the increase in power but less damage.

the buu-uub thing was gay. dbgt was GAY, and i hated it. i woulda had vegeta surpass goku for the first time in history.

o and another thing that ALWAYS bugged me, i woulda had vegeta finally call himself the ****ing KING. "i am the prince of all saiyans" well everyone else is dead buddy ur the ****ING KING.

i woulda ended the show at the end of DBZ, where it deserved to end.

have all the side charactersget much stronger and turn evil and fight goku, vegeta and piccolo. thats after buu saga. i woulda done it like that. as a final homage to the side characters, to give them importance

Kero_Co
Kill DBGT
More DB Love, by the end of DBZ most of the original cast were useless. I don't care what you say, Wolf Fang Fist was badass.
Goten, other than fusing with trunks he does nothing. Kill him off or make him useful.
Broly should have had his own saga, or at least an OVA, and I'm willing to erase the Buu saga to do it.
DBZ Movie 13, Awesome.
Great Saiyaman, WTF Gohan?
Pan, should have been Goten
Bebi, I like him, but he was trapped in the awfulness that was DBGT. I'd reinvent the whole saga.

Accel
End it right after the Frieza Saga.

Like Toriyama originally intended to do.

chickenlover98
Originally posted by Accel
End it right after the Frieza Saga.

Like Toriyama originally intended to do.

nah the cell saga was RRA love right there. brolly subsaga woulda been great. actually an OVA, i like that idea. cell saga was honestly perfect. they shoulda either ended it there, or made the buu saga way better. I HATED the great saiyaman. goten was useless, but pan was a good addition, to bad she never went ssj. babi was good ur right.

En Sabah Nur X
1. Expand android and saiyaman arcs.
2.More gogeta
3. power lvl consistency and add new skills
4. NOT make everyone a supersaiyan goku should've been the only one.

chickenlover98
Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
1. Expand android and saiyaman arcs.
2.More gogeta
3. power lvl consistency and add new skills
4. NOT make everyone a supersaiyan goku should've been the only one.

4 is SO ****ing wrong its not even funny. if you dont think vegeta deserves it, then i hope you never watch an anime or comment on one again. no other character in any show deserved to be powerful than him. his entire civilization was destoryed and it was his birthright. however goten should not have been a ssj. trunks im ok with. but they shoulda still had to work for it like their fathers

Accel

superkronick92

King Kandy
1. Vegeta would have staid dead after he was killed.
2. Alternativly, planet Vegeta gets wished back and he goes to it.
3. Have it follow Journey to the West more closely.
4. Give people more unique abilities.
5. Nothing past SSJ2, and only Gohan has that.

Violent2Dope
Taken a shotgun and blown every recording of DBT every made to hell.

Grinning Goku
Originally posted by King Kandy
1. Vegeta would have staid dead after he was killed.
2. Alternativly, planet Vegeta gets wished back and he goes to it.
3. Have it follow Journey to the West more closely.
4. Give people more unique abilities.
5. Nothing past SSJ2, and only Gohan has that.

Cool. But five is ghey.

superkronick92
I would have actually had a COMPLETE world tournament in DBZ

SoylentBlue
-No episode-long staredowns ala DBZ. I mean, holy SHIT people.

-Get rid of Buu saga.

-Stop it with the idiotic focusing on one character's power for several episodes and then suddenly onto anothers' 'newfound uber-skeels' like in several parts of DBZ... while everyone else stands helpless.

-Make Krillin able to deal with some of the freaking enemies after the Frieza Saga. The last cool thing he ever did was to get chased by First Cell like he was being stalked by a serial killer for an ep or two. He IS supposed to be the strongest human on earth (not officially, but in a measure of power).

-Stop killing random/all of the supporting characters off for shock value, just to wish them all back. That got old after the Frieza Saga.

-Make the Saiyaman arc an actual arc and not a horribly contrived springboard for the World Budokai, which itself was a horribly contrived springboard for the Buu Saga. I mean, that could have BEEN something...

-More real character development in DBZ.

ankur29
right , really interesting guys but not enough love for buu saga & goten

goten was great,but need way more charecter development as did kid trunks ... they should have achieved supersiyan through more plot before needing gotenks (who is absolutely brilliant)

i would have wanted vegeta to still go ssj3 & for their to be one last saga after buu where all tehy hcharecters are grown up like in the last few episode fillers but have continued training gogeta ssj3 is required for humanity to win

goku & vegeta both get dead & have to spend rest of thier dead lifes in otherworld ,what a weird fate for rivals they have to spend eternity in each others presence as vegeta is allowed to keep his body also , ironic end ... gotenks & ultimate gohan are the new protectors of earth as tehy have proved themslves & piccolo has gotten stronger as well to keep up with the new guys as piccolo is so badass & cool through teh series

En Sabah Nur X
Originally posted by chickenlover98
4 is SO ****ing wrong its not even funny. if you dont think vegeta deserves it, then i hope you never watch an anime or comment on one again. no other character in any show deserved to be powerful than him. his entire civilization was destoryed and it was his birthright. however goten should not have been a ssj. trunks im ok with. but they shoulda still had to work for it like their fathers
It would have been more faithful to what toriyama originally intended. Though vegeta could be one too, just as long as they don't extend it any further than that.

Csdabest
End it after the Cell Saga. and Consistent power levels.

And if there was going to be a buu saga. Made it happen in Future Trunks timeline. with either most of the cast wished back or atleast Gohan. And Have gohan and trunks defeat buu by either ubber tag team or Fusion. Also in the cell saga. Make it so when they go back in to the HBTC that they show increase of power. At the increase the recieved the first time. Trunks and Vegetea was both able to hold their own aginst Perfect cell with cell gaining the uber hand. After the second time they entered. Cell should have been Canon fodder.

But yeah if there was to be a a saga after Cell it should of happened in Future Trunks timeline. He was actually a well developed character and a powerful one that got treated after dirt after his fight with cell. He was actually more powerful than cell and just couldnt touch him. But anyways yeah.

BradBalboa
I would have let toriyama make Gt or whatever he would have called it in his own damn time, GT was rushed and as a result was crap, and no where near as popular, a very fuked up series Goku ssj4 struggaling to lift a building ??/ WTF Goku lifts more than 100tons in his fight with piccolo ( piccolo himself) by Gt he should be like pre-crisis supes moving planets and shit

ankur29
Originally posted by BradBalboa
I would have let toriyama make Gt or whatever he would have called it in his own damn time, GT was rushed and as a result was crap, and no where near as popular, a very fuked up series Goku ssj4 struggaling to lift a building ??/ WTF Goku lifts more than 100 tons in his fight with piccolo ( piccolo himself) by Gt he should be like pre-crisis supes moving planets and shit

lol, that is a bit exagerated but still consistencies woudl of been good , GT by toriyama woudl have been better! cool

BradBalboa
For all you guys who hate GT, IV GOT GREAT NEWS !!
Dragonball Onlins likely to be considered as the TRUE continuation othe Dragonball story rather than Gt, sine it completely ignores the events of GT.

THIS IS GREAT NEWS, we get a new post DBZ timeline, which doesnt sound to bad since Toriyama has much MUCH more control over it

woooooo

Ridley_Prime
Hmm. Source?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Hmm. Source?

BradBalboa
Wikipedia !

Classic NES
The trailer since it shows the DBZ timeline. This game takes place 222 years after DBZ.

n5LNS2QJ3yY

Superboy Prime
I would have Vegeta kill Frieza at least once.

The hatred between them was real. Frieza took Vegeta's dignity right before he killed him. Frieza never saw Vegeta going SSJ. I can only imagine the "Oh Shit" look on Frieza's face if he ever saw Vegeta as a SSJ.

SSJ3 was stupid. SSJ4 even worse.

psycho gundam
that show should have ended at the death of frieza, anything after that was gratuitous fan service(a.k.a. cash grab) and you all know it.

the story was done.

Classic NES
Originally posted by Superboy Prime


SSJ2 was stupid, SSJ43 was better.

Fixed it for ya. smile

Jin Saotome
For the manga... I woulda had Vegeta catch up to Goku, Vegata woulda went SSJ 3. And I woulda made sure er body knew who Goku and Vegeta's mothers were.

HueyFreeman

King Kandy
I thought Vegetto vs. Buu was cool, at least in the anime it was. It was funny seeing them come up with many unique ways for Buu to get the shit beat out of him.

Phantom Ghost
- Made death more serious as it seemed like a complete joke. I would make it harder to ressurect someone

- Not make the battles last quite as long

- Brought back Brolly in the main series for a major arc

- Given Tien, Krillin, and Yamacha more time to shine against powerful villains and not just make it about the Saiyans.

- Gohan becomes the true main character after Goku dies saving the earth from Cell

- Replaced Buu with a different villain

- Never made GT

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
- Made death more serious as it seemed like a complete joke. I would make it harder to ressurect someone

- Not make the battles last quite as long

- Brought back Brolly in the main series for a major arc

- Given Tien, Krillin, and Yamacha more time to shine against powerful villains and not just make it about the Saiyans.

- Gohan becomes the true main character after Goku dies saving the earth from Cell

- Replaced Buu with a different villain

- Never made GT perfect list though the broly thing is a little meh.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
perfect list though the broly thing is a little meh.
Agreed. I'd rather have Cooler for that.

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by ankur29
if you coudl what would you have done differently in the Dragonball series
including both dbz & gt?

heres a few things i woudl have done

1) establish proper consistent character physical stats
2) have goku teach all the z fighters instant transmission especailly piccolo,kuririn and vegeta
3) have no ssj4 ...was riducluous
4) greater use of gogeta from the fusion movie but in the series
5) unsure about this but have vegeta go ssj3 which should be the final saiyan transformation
6) have tiensha as a fusion character aswell
7) not fuse uub with mister buu
8)stay consistent with power levels how does a goku at eth start of teh show start with enough power to blow up a moon but eventually get stronger but inflict less damage

...thoughts...

1) Establish constant power levels apart from Majin Buu.
2) have more interaction with the other Z fighters, see the relationship with Gohan and Piccolo, how the Z fighters stick together.
3) teach some of the other heroes special moves after the Friza saga everyone seems to get a tiny increase in power that's it
4) 18 and Krillins relationship...he married an android come on theres some material there upon itself.
5) Make the villains a little more individual, Janemba was like Kid Buu and Cell was like Friza only with a bigger ego
6) a few more relative villains I quite like the fact that Cooler appeared as friza's big brother, in fact I like Cooler alot more
7) Bebi no....just no
8) Super 17 no....just no
9) Dragonball GT what a let down, pass
10) more interactions with other secondary characters towards the end of Z the only main characters seem to be that of Mr. Satan, Vegeta, Goku and Buu
11) Why do all the villains freeze in there tracks when an attack is about to happen.
12) more character development for both heroes and villains, Cell has no real motivation or motive sure he is programmed to destroy but he shows no difference that I would have expected from him since he was pure Bio material.
13) Get rid of Mr. Satan
14) Anyone else feel that Sayaiman was a waste of time?
15) Dragonball and DBZ thumb up GT thumb down The first saga was so boring.
16) Really do we need 3 films on Broly?

Thats it for now at least.

Also Dragonball online is coming and will ignore GT set 100 years after Z this looks set to be great; we don't have to worry about any GT elements appearing. smile

One extra: why did they make Uub and Majuub, Good Buu, Evil Buu and Kid Buu are the best Buu's and the only ones I want to see and then they got rid of the Good Buu, the only good hero in GT.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
13) Get rid of Mr. Satan
I have to disagree with you here. He was part of what made the show hilarious, especially in the Buu sagas.
That, and he himself taught Buu that killing was wrong and all that. Plus, he's got that cool theme song, and is fun to use in the games (he's actually real good if used correctly).

Neo Darkhalen
Fair enough, I still don't understand how Krillin can have a child with 18 it still defies logic.

I did like Satan in the Buu sagas but when he was in the cell saga he was pretty annoying.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
Fair enough, I still don't understand how Krillin can have a child with 18 it still defies logic.
I think Krillen did kinda explain it in one episode (in the World Tournament saga), but I forgot what it was he said now...

Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
I did like Satan in the Buu sagas but when he was in the cell saga he was pretty annoying.
Heh. Agreed.

The edits of him in the Cell saga are pretty funny though.

TiXXRYDUHsQ

2NIZOu8W5pY

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I think Krillen did kinda explain it in one episode (in the World Tournament saga), but I forgot what it was he said now...


Heh. Agreed.

The edits of him in the Cell saga are pretty funny though.

TiXXRYDUHsQ

2NIZOu8W5pY

He sort of did but it still made no sense...score one for loving an android.

King Kandy
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
The cell/andoids saga had a continuation of the dragonball history as well as letting Vegeta develop more into an antihero/warrior than a villian.
Big mistake on their part, it ruined him as a character.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by King Kandy
Big mistake on their part, it ruined him as a character.
Why is that? If he had stayed a villain after being brought back to life (after getting killed by Frieza), he would've just gotten annihilated by Goku & the Z fighters again.

Accel

Accel
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
He sort of did but it still made no sense...score one for loving an android.
17 and 18 were technically cyborgs, not androids. They were both originally humans until Gero did whatever he did to them.

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by Accel
17 and 18 were technically cyborgs, not androids. They were both originally humans until Gero did whatever he did to them.

Technically Cell is also not an android since he is made of bio substance and in his first two forms does not resemble a humanoid but there you go, as for Vegeta I liked the way he eventually acknowledged how Goku was stronger there rivalry and the way he progressed from villain up to Goku's friend was great.

Originally posted by Accel
And it was. The Buu arc as a whole was just plain stupid, but the concept of the villain Buu made more sense to me than the concept of the villain Cell. When Goku defeated King Piccolo, the heroes were supposed to be beyond facing the strongest Earth-bound threats and moving on to facing the strongest intergalactic threats like the Saiyans, the Ginyu Force, and Frieza. When Cell and the Androids came along, created by some previously no-name scientist, the good guys basically went from facing a galactic emperor and universal terror and back to facing even more Earth-born enemies.
Cell may have been higher on the power scale, but he just felt like step back as far as villain status went.

Buu, on the other hand, was someone who made the highest-level gods afraid so he actually seemed to be something on another level above Frieza as far as credible threats go, despite his ridiculously shitty saga.



Killing machines as strong as a SSJ? Yes. Android 8 was barely stronger than kid Goku, so the idea that the androids and cyborgs would be able to fight Super-Saiyans just eight models later is a pretty big leap and kind of a stretch.



Vegita and Trunks pretty much underwent the exact same kind of training that Goku did, so I sincerely doubt he was that far ahead of them. When Goku alone was enough to wear Cell down significantly and yet couldn’t quite go all the way, Trunks should have been able to just jump in by that point and finish him off.



I’m all for character development and I liked Vegita, but let’s face it, every thing after the Frieza saga was phoned in. The series became basically became the “The Amazing Saiyans Show,” Bulma getting together with Vegita made no sense whatsoever, the SSJ transformation went from being something of legendary status to being something that just any body with Saiyan blood could perform, death meant almost nothing any more (since they got around the whole "Shenron can't revive the same dead person more than once" scenario), etc.

The Cell saga wasn't terrible, but it definitely wasn't a fluid progression in the storyline from the Frieza arc.

Cell seemed to have been rushed as if they never had to the time to fully flesh out his details, if you see that is one thing on my list, I understand that Cell is programmed to destroy yet you never get any personality from the villain all that he does is say I want to be perfect, yet you never get a real reason why, only that Dr. Gero said that's my goal considering he has emotions to I would have expected more development on his part and why he strives to create a tournament.

As for androids I doubt any of them could have handled over a SSJ only because 17 and 18 took them by surprise then ran off do they really count as beating them.

Now finally Majin Buu, so many transformations and a plot that was never really fleshed out still, as in terms of power and wild destruction Kid Buu was the greatest threat of all, Super Buu was also a serious problem and I really enjoyed the Kid Buu and Super Buu arcs, the Babidi arc seemed like filler and just a way to establish Buu and then stall his release, once Super Buu started absorbing people I thought to my self this has been done before, it seems that DBZ all copy of another DBZ for example Janemba is like Kid Buu and Cell is just like Frieza only with a much larger ego.

Accel
Cell and Buu not coming across as completely fleshed out villains was mainly due to the fact that Toriyama didn't plan on making them until he had to extend the series past the Frieza saga. That's why the series became much more about power levels and energy beams than it was previously.

Every thing after the Frieza saga, plus the dozen movies and Gt was just Toryiyama's company's way of milking the Dragonball franchise for all it was worth.

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by Accel
Cell and Buu not coming across as completely fleshed out villains was mainly due to the fact that Toriyama didn't plan on making them until he had to extend the series past the Frieza saga. That's why the series became much more about power levels and energy beams than it was previously.

Every thing after the Frieza saga, plus the dozen movies and Gt was just Toryiyama's company's way of milking the Dragonball franchise for all it was worth.

That is true still they were top villains I really liked the Cell and Buu arcs, more then Frieza's.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Why is that? If he had stayed a villain after being brought back to life (after getting killed by Frieza), he would've just gotten annihilated by Goku & the Z fighters again.
He should have just stayed dead, he had a perfectly emotional death and then it got blown off like nothing.

Combat_Guru
Made it so Goku was the only Super Saiyan.

That would prove the legend that a Super Saiyan only comes once in a thousand years, which adds to the badassness of a Super Saiyan, wink

HueyFreeman

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Yes and no with the power difference between the warriors. Both sequences of Vegeta fighting cell he lays him out with 3 punches. There was a huge difference in power between Goku and Vegeta though I could never understand why. Trunks was a difference story though, he had the strength. They tried to clean that little inconsistancy up with that whole "honor speech" Vegeta kept giving trunks about going one on one. Not to mension trunks is purposely the first person Cell kills when he comes back.

He should have taken Gohan out instead.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
He should have taken Gohan out instead.
Heh. Yeah...

He had the perfect chance to do so, but I guess he wanted to use Gohan to test out his new-found powers against instead.

Accel
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Yes and no with the power difference between the warriors. Both sequences of Vegeta fighting cell he lays him out with 3 punches. There was a huge difference in power between Goku and Vegeta though I could never understand why. Trunks was a difference story though, he had the strength.
That's one of the problems of that arc though. Both Vegita and Trunks underwent the exact same kind of training that Goku went through twice over, and yet Goku was still somehow more powerful than them. But the idea that he was that much stronger without undergoing any other special training is just preposterous.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
They tried to clean that little inconsistancy up with that whole "honor speech" Vegeta kept giving trunks about going one on one. Not to mension trunks is purposely the first person Cell kills when he comes back.
That's another thing that irked me about Goku's attitude after the Frieza saga. His fight with Cell wasn't the first time he risked the fate of every thing to beat a really strong opponent. He did the same when he fought alone against Piccolo in the tournament and when he let Frieza power up to 100%; but those times were when he was fully confident he could win and when he really was the only person who could beat those opponents at those times.

Against Cell though, not only did Goku not think he could win, but he had at least two other fighters who could help gang up on Cell, yet they STILL risk every thing by only fighting Cell one-on-one using that whole "honor" thing as an excuse.

He even does the same thing later on when taking turns fighting Kid Buu one-on-one with Vegita instead of teaming up or using fusion. Just stupid.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Combat_Guru
Made it so Goku was the only Super Saiyan.

That would prove the legend that a Super Saiyan only comes once in a thousand years, which adds to the badassness of a Super Saiyan, wink
Gohan could be a Super Saiyan too since it's the logical conclusion to his "hidden potential" substory.

Accel
Gohan's hidden power was originally supposed to be the result of him being half saiyan and half human (apparently mixing saiyan and human blood results in a powerful hybrid), but I guess that had to be tossed out when Trunks came along.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Accel
Gohan's hidden power was originally supposed to be the result of him being half saiyan and half human (apparently mixing saiyan and human blood results in a powerful hybrid), but I guess that had to be tossed out when Trunks came along.
And Goten...

Both him and Trunks never had tails, yet Gohan did. erm

Accel
That's not too difficult to believe. The only reason Gohan kept his tail at first was because neither Goku nor Chichi knew about the transformation thing.

By the time Trunks and Goten came around, I doubt any one would have wanted to risk more giant apes running around.

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
And Goten...

Both him and Trunks never had tails, yet Gohan did. erm

That confused me as well, also sayians re-grow there tails when they are young in the case of Gohan and Goku.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by Accel
That's one of the problems of that arc though. Both Vegita and Trunks underwent the exact same kind of training that Goku went through twice over, and yet Goku was still somehow more powerful than them. But the idea that he was that much stronger without undergoing any other special training is just preposterous.


They still had different methods of training though. Vegetas whole training idea was to transform into the next Super Saiyan form so it revolved around beefing his body up for it. Gokus training revolved around both increasing his power and mastering the super saiyan one form so it no longer taxed his body to transform. That and the fact that Gokus whole career as a fighter was spent taking huge leaps in power between sagas even though he was a low class warrior. I always felt that Vegeta's power from the saiyan saga was more of a birth given power and not earned like Goku's was. This may be why he lagged behind since he didn't have the experience and knowledge to find knew ways of increasing his power. He had been relying his strength on the whole (a saiyans peak increases after serious injuries). At least thats how I see it.

King Kandy
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
I always felt that Vegeta's power from the saiyan saga was more of a birth given power and not earned like Goku's was. This may be why he lagged behind since he didn't have the experience and knowledge to find knew ways of increasing his power. He had been relying his strength on the whole (a saiyans peak increases after serious injuries). At least thats how I see it.
Oy, I felt the exact opposite. Vegeta spent his whole life as a warrior who ravaged planets. Goku fought and trained alot too, but he had a social life at least. Vegeta worked so much harder it didn't seem fair to me that Goku was stronger.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by King Kandy
Oy, I felt the exact opposite. Vegeta spent his whole life as a warrior who ravaged planets. Goku fought and trained alot too, but he had a social life at least. Vegeta worked so much harder it didn't seem fair to me that Goku was stronger. I didn't really see it that way. He had the whole saiyan attitude of ravaging planets that were weaker than him. If he screwed it up he just turned ape to win. He was already born with one of the highest power levels on vegeta. Goku spent his whole life fighting people who gave him a challenge since he was a low level soldier while Vegeta spent it massacring groups who he was already stronger than. Think about it, Radditz was ravaging planets also and he was a weakling so I doubt Vegeta came across anyone worth a dust of a challenge. Killing the weak is not the same as constantly putting your fighting limits to the test and pushing beyond.

King Kandy
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
I didn't really see it that way. He had the whole saiyan attitude of ravaging planets that were weaker than him. If he screwed it up he just turned ape to win. He was already born with one of the highest power levels on vegeta. Goku spent his whole life fighting people who gave him a challenge since he was a low level soldier while Vegeta spent it massacring groups who he was already stronger than. Think about it, Radditz was ravaging planets also and he was a weakling so I doubt Vegeta came across anyone worth a dust of a challenge. Killing the weak is not the same as constantly putting your fighting limits to the test and pushing beyond.
Okay, let me use another way of explaining this: At the end of the saiyan sage, Vegeta and Goku had equal power (actually there's a slight edge to Vegeta since Goku had help, but we'll just say they're equal.) Then when we get to Namek, Goku is way stronger then Vegeta? Why so? Let's examine what they did in between.

A. Goku ran laps and did push-ups in a spaceship.

B. Vegeta constantly fought against people stronger then him, broke new barriers of strength, almost died numerous times and came back stronger then before, and beat guys he didn't even have a chance of hurting before.

Vegeta was OBVIOUSLY working harder but somehow he comes out weaker? WTF?

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by King Kandy
Okay, let me use another way of explaining this: At the end of the saiyan sage, Vegeta and Goku had equal power (actually there's a slight edge to Vegeta since Goku had help, but we'll just say they're equal.) Then when we get to Namek, Goku is way stronger then Vegeta? Why so? Let's examine what they did in between.

A. Goku ran laps and did push-ups in a spaceship.

B. Vegeta constantly fought against people stronger then him, broke new barriers of strength, almost died numerous times and came back stronger then before, and beat guys he didn't even have a chance of hurting before.

Vegeta was OBVIOUSLY working harder but somehow he comes out weaker? WTF?
He fought who
Cui
Dodoria
Zarbon, Recoome- the only poeple he fought worth a damn and who increase his power.


Goku did what- he trained in conditions that were several times more than his training with kai. Wasn't he training in 10 x gravity for his battle with vegeta. 100x has got to be a huge gap in power for him. What was his peak vs Vegeta? Power level 21000. Multiply that by ten and his power is just about what it should have been. Not to mension most of it was training his body to perform a technique that could increase his ability several times over. He was only as strong as he was because of the kaoken attack.

Neo Darkhalen
Originally posted by King Kandy
Okay, let me use another way of explaining this: At the end of the saiyan sage, Vegeta and Goku had equal power (actually there's a slight edge to Vegeta since Goku had help, but we'll just say they're equal.) Then when we get to Namek, Goku is way stronger then Vegeta? Why so? Let's examine what they did in between.

A. Goku ran laps and did push-ups in a spaceship.

B. Vegeta constantly fought against people stronger then him, broke new barriers of strength, almost died numerous times and came back stronger then before, and beat guys he didn't even have a chance of hurting before.

Vegeta was OBVIOUSLY working harder but somehow he comes out weaker? WTF?

I guess he was naturally stronger don't beat the fact that Goku took on and defeated Frieza, Nappa, Broly, Cooler, Buu, ect he has took on his fair share of serious villains.

King Kandy
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
He fought who
Cui
Dodoria
Zarbon, Recoome- the only poeple he fought worth a damn and who increase his power.


Goku did what- he trained in conditions that were several times more than his training with kai. Wasn't he training in 10 x gravity for his battle with vegeta. 100x has got to be a huge gap in power for him. What was his peak vs Vegeta? Power level 21000. Multiply that by ten and his power is just about what it should have been. Not to mension most of it was training his body to perform a technique that could increase his ability several times over. He was only as strong as he was because of the kaoken attack.
Nah, he wasn't even using Kaioken when he took on the Genyu Force, and Vegeta couldn't beat Recoome. My point is that for how hard Vegeta worked, and how his life was always threatened, it doesn't seem fair that Goku is stronger.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by King Kandy
A. Goku ran laps and did push-ups in a spaceship.
...... at 100 times gravity that of earth's.

Kaoiken times 3 or Kaoiken times 4 was too much for Goku's body when he fought Vegeta on earth, but after he was done training at 100 times gravity, he was able to perform Kaoiken times 20 (at least).

Vegeta's defeat and revenge against Zarbon did increase his strength, yes, but not as much as Goku's increased through the training that he did.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Nah, he wasn't even using Kaioken when he took on the Genyu Force, and Vegeta couldn't beat Recoome. My point is that for how hard Vegeta worked, and how his life was always threatened, it doesn't seem fair that Goku is stronger.
Meh...
I agree when it comes to that.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by King Kandy
Nah, he wasn't even using Kaioken when he took on the Genyu Force, and Vegeta couldn't beat Recoome. My point is that for how hard Vegeta worked, and how his life was always threatened, it doesn't seem fair that Goku is stronger. I always thought the whole sayan ability only counted for a descent power increase but nothing near doubling the saiyans fighting power level. Though I could be wrong since Vegetas power level flucuated greatly between krillin shooting him and dende healing him.

King Kandy
I always assumed it was something like a 2x upgrade, but anyway I know he did it in high gravity, but if i'd been risking my life to get stronger i'd be pretty depressed when someone comes along and got stronger by doing some basic exercises in a high-gravity spaceship.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Though I could be wrong since Vegetas power level flucuated greatly between krillin shooting him and dende healing him.
Likewise, Goku's power seemed to flucuate just as much after getting fully healed in Frieza's space ship.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I always assumed it was something like a 2x upgrade, but anyway I know he did it in high gravity, but if i'd been risking my life to get stronger i'd be pretty depressed when someone comes along and got stronger by doing some basic exercises in a high-gravity spaceship.
Heh. I would too, now that ya put it that way.

And that's basically how Vegeta felt (needless to say).

Ridley_Prime
Now that I think about it, one think I would've done differently with the series is take out the entire Buu arc, and have Dabura the final, most powerful villain or whatever instead. Screw Majin Buu. I mean, come on. Dabura's the freakin' Demon King! It would've made sense for him to be the biggest threat, as opposed to being turned into a cookie. no expression What a waste.

Also would've made King Cold a much bigger threat to the Super Saiyans (or at least Trunks) so he would've been a more remembered villain than what he turned out to be. erm Any father of Frieza's should've gotten such treatment.

Would've made Cooler canon as well.

.. And I'd be tempted to make Broly weaker just to anger the fanboys. stick out tongue
Yeah.

Bentley
Make Dragonball fights more like One Piece fights. Give secondary characters interesting/unique/important things to do. Make alternative powers more important and interesting. More team fights a la Nappa/Freezer fight, less one on one fights that end with a plot device power up -say, the whole Cell absorbing androids plot-.

Ridley_Prime
I didn't mind the whole Cell absorbing Androids plot to be honest, though I guess that's because he was my favorite villain in the series, but otherwise, I agree. The whole absorption thing ended up becoming gay when it was overused by Buu.

And I definitely agree about more of those team fights like the Nappa and Frieza examples you mentioned. That would've been awesome... Would've re-watched the series more than I had just for that.

yungz22
I would have liked the series to go Toriyama originally planed it gohan takingg over after the cell saga. This would allow more character development for the other characters and made it much more interesting because Come on Who didn't like Future Gohan?

Kento
I didn't. I never liked any form of Gohan but I liked the pacifist Gohan best. I'd have just given Tien some big fights instead of mostly cutting him out. Probably give the other humans big fights also.

yungz22
i probably would have made piccollo a little more important by the end of the series too

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by yungz22
i probably would have made piccollo a little more important by the end of the series too
Same here. He should've been more involved at the end of the series (besides just teaching the kids the fusion technique) like he was in all the previous sagas.

Kento
Originally posted by yungz22
i probably would have made piccollo a little more important by the end of the series too Yea, him too. It sucked that if you weren't a saiyan you sorta were useless. Even though Piccolo did get his moments in Freeza and Cell saga only to become useless two seconds later. Which is more than the rest of the non-saiyans.

Ridley_Prime
True. sad I was hoping Piccolo's strength would increase as much as the others' did after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber too... Too much focus on the saiyans man, seriously.

What he did to Babidi was pretty badass though. Just wish he had actually been the one to kill him and not Buu. Would've been more fitting. stick out tongue

yungz22
I would have created enough bad guys for everyone to defeat kind of like Yu Yu Hakusho every character would get a chance to fight but of course the main character would be the strongest. Thats the problem with DBZ there are alot of good guys but not enough ewvil people for them to fight.

Kento
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
True. sad I was hoping Piccolo's strength would increase as much as the others' did after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber too... Too much focus on the saiyans man, seriously.

What he did to Babidi was pretty badass though. Just wish he had actually been the one to kill him and not Buu. Would've been more fitting. stick out tongue I find it kind of hard to believe that Trunks being one of the smart ones never thought to try and increase his speed while is USSJ mode after his going back into the room. He already had the powerto defeat Cell just needed to be a bit faster. And we all know Vegeta trains ten times harder than Gokou yet he was like the fourth strongest hero in the Cell Saga. I mean I get Gokou being the strongest cause he's the main character and all but Vegeta should have been at least near him.

Originally posted by yungz22
I would have created enough bad guys for everyone to defeat kind of like Yu Yu Hakusho every character would get a chance to fight but of course the main character would be the strongest. Thats the problem with DBZ there are alot of good guys but not enough ewvil people for them to fight. There was in the Freeza saga...They just all ended up being beaten by either Vegeta or Gokou though. lol

danteiscool
I'd do the same thing yungz22 would do. I'd also make all of the DBZ movies into short story arcs and would make Piccolo at the end of DBZ strong enough to at least hold his own against Goku at the end.

I'd also make a short arc in which Goku and Vegeta fuse into Gogeta to take on a considerably stronger than before LSS Broly (just like in the DBZ budokai tenkaichi 3 opening).

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by yungz22
I would have created enough bad guys for everyone to defeat kind of like Yu Yu Hakusho every character would get a chance to fight but of course the main character would be the strongest. Thats the problem with DBZ there are alot of good guys but not enough ewvil people for them to fight.
Yeah. =(

Originally posted by Kento
I find it kind of hard to believe that Trunks being one of the smart ones never thought to try and increase his speed while is USSJ mode after his going back into the room. He already had the power to defeat Cell just needed to be a bit faster. And we all know Vegeta trains ten times harder than Gokou yet he was like the fourth strongest hero in the Cell Saga. I mean I get Gokou being the strongest cause he's the main character and all but Vegeta should have been at least near him.
Aye... I guess the same can be said for Piccolo and Trunks as well for that matter (at least as far as the Cell saga goes and onward).

Originally posted by danteiscool
I'd do the same thing yungz22 would do. I'd also make all of the DBZ movies into short story arcs and would make Piccolo at the end of DBZ strong enough to at least hold his own against Goku at the end.
Well, I don't know about all the movies being made into story arcs (I agree that some of them should though like the ones with Cooler, and of course Bardock), and I fully agree about the Piccolo part as well.

Would've made Dabura not a throwaway character too like I kinda said before. If Buu has to be the main villain in the last season of DBZ, they could've at least had Dabura play some kind of important role in ensuring Buu's destruction or somethin', rather than being turned into a stupid cookie and getting eaten...
Also would've liked to see/hear more about the whole demon world that Dabura came from. Would've at least been more interesting than Super Buu absorbing Gotenks and all that shit. They really just dragged Buu out way too much.

Blinky
I would have gave Vegeta a little more respect. The DB writters love to shit and piss on Vegeta's hush-puppies.

dadudemon
Read the whole thread. Some great ideas. I agree with most of what Rid Prime said, and probably all of what Kento said.

I would make the power scaling normal. So, by the end of DBZ, Goku and Gohan would be destroy a quarter of a galaxy with just a normal Ki blast. I would make fights have to occur in a different dimension with Piccalo always transporting them.

I would still make SSJ4, but I would change the look of it completely. As well as SSJ3. The hair on SSJ3 and the missing eyebrows are stupid looking Whoopi Goldberg wanna bes.

I woulda made the SSJ4 the actual LSSJ and the whole thing about the LSSJ would be changed.

Vegeta would defnitely reach LSSJ, but far after Goku did. He would have to struggle to get there, just like he did for SSJ. VEGETA would have been the one to kill Freiza, not Goku.

Also, in the Saiyan Arc, I would have Goku hand Vegeta his a$$, and not make it nearly as even. Vegeta would NOT turn great Ape as he would be too arrogant to try that. This would make Vegeta have an epiphany of, "what the hell have I been doing all these years." Of course, Goku wil ls spare his life, and Vegeta will grow a soft spot for the Z warriors after that...however, he will still hold a grudge against Goku, a low class warrior, defeating him.

Goku's father would still be alive. Instead of planet Vegeta getting blown to bits, it would have been all of royalty (minus vegeta, of course. Vegeta would witness this, but pretend he didn't know, and work under Freiza his whole life until the Saiyan wrc) and all of the upper class noble saiyans...cause they would confront Freiza about treating the saiayns poorly and then Freiza would pwn them dead. Then, all the rest of the saiyans would be treated like dogs and low level henchmen, creating the hate. And starting up the events that lead to Freiza saga.

Of course, Goku would meet his father after the Saiyan saga, and Bardock would be a harsh, tough, rough, father, but still have a soft spot for Goku and still show it, but subtley. Bardock's backstory would still be mostly th same, but diverge when he tries to escape to find his wife (once he found out Frieza was coming...Bardock wouldn't actually try to lead the attack, King Vegeta would.)

What would set Vegeta off to go SSJ is something I haven't thought of, yet. Cooler would exist, and Goku would fight Cooler and go SSJ against Cooler. Goku would go SSJ against him because Cooler would execute Bardock, right in front of Goku.

NO SSJ kid trunks and kid Goten. They all would have to reach SSJ when they were in their 20s. The eariliest SSJ would still be Gohan (at 13?) It would stay that way.

Broly would be an entire saga after the Freiza and Cooler Saga. Broly would NOT destroy an entire galaxy, however. His form would still be USSJ with the speed of an ASSJ (like Vegeta.) Vegeta would beat down Broly, after coming out of the HBTC. He would have to work for it. Goku goes in, thinking Vegeta won't make it. HBTC training takes 14 days, instead of 1 day. The saga ends with Vegeta finally letting go of his pride, and accepting power from a namek and a half-breed saiyan (future trunks), which allows him to not kill, but knock out Broly. In this arc, the ultimate foe is Broly's father, but Broly still breaks free of the mind control device (but the mind control device never limits Broly's power.) Vegeta finds out about the mind control, and confronts Paragus about Paragus' plans to take over the now successful saiyan empire with what Paragus thought was the only SSJ. A fight comences and in so doing, Broly walks in on the fight, and witnesses Vegeta kill Paragus for his crimes against the Saiyan throne. Broly challenges Vegeta to an honor duel that will be held in 3 months. (Vegeta doesn't yet know that Broly has the USSJ form with the speed of a ASSJ, however, he does know that Broly is stronger than a regular SSJ, based on some sort of polot point I haven't thought of yet. So, they all decide the HBTC is their best bet.

Of course, Vegeta eventually wins (as I said before) with a similar "lend me your power" type of scenario. After Broly is conscious, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Gohan all prove to Broli, with the help of Bulma figuring out the device, that Broly was being controlled. Broly becomes part of the Z family. Goku and Gohan were in their training in the HBTC, during this time, and still have 13 days levft to train.

So, when Goku and Gohan come out, they step out into....

Dr. Gero would use that data to make his androids. When Goku comes out of the HBTC, all of the events for the android saga have taken place with Vegeta getting beat down and Broly taking a fall to Android 16. Cell has come along and setup his tournie and absorbed the others. Just as before, Gohan would still do his SSJ2 thing against Cell.

That's all I've got so far for my re-write.




Also, I would change the dynamic of father-son relationships for Saiyans. Still, a son would kill his father, but only when the father had reached old age or the point of not being able to fight anymore. The son would then have a fight with his father, and hopefully, kill his father. This would be considered the most honorable way for a Saiyan to die, other than in battle.

Oh, and, somehwere in here, King Cold comes to Earth for revenge with Future Trunks saving everyone again. (At this point, Goku still takes a while to get back to Earth, as well, as he decides to go off and train. We can pretend that Cooler is the older more powerful brother, but Freiza was the one more interested in ruling, so he was the one who ruled.)

So, to sum up:

Bardock's alive.
Freiza only killed the Royalty and noble saiyans.
Goku beats down Vegeta.
Vegeta and Goku go SSJ against Frieza and Cooler, respectively. They defeat them. Vegeta becomes the Saiyan King, and sets new policies that have the Saiyans as mercanaries, but also more industrious and intelligent.
Broly is part of the main story and Veget beats him, and tells him to submit to his rule. Broly is brought around by Bulma proving that Paragus was mind controlling him and Vegeta was correct in executing him for Paragus Forcing Broly to murder all of those people.
The Android and Cell Saga finish and start, respectively, while Goku and Gohan are training to fight Broly, whom they thought Vegeta would never beat.
Gohan goes SSJ2, and beats Perfect Cell, just as before.


From there, I'm all out.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would still make SSJ4, but I would change the look of it completely. As well as SSJ3. The hair on SSJ3 and the missing eyebrows are stupid looking Whoopi Goldberg wanna bes.
I agree with most of what you said, especially this part here. The eye-liners on SSJ4 kinda bothered me too, but not nearly as much as the lack of eyebrows on SSJ3. Otherwise though, I was fine with the general appearance of SSJ4 (yay for having a Super Saiyan form that isn't gold/blond hair stick out tongue).

Originally posted by dadudemon
I woulda made the SSJ4 the actual LSSJ and the whole thing about the LSSJ would be changed.
Also, co-signed... Same with the part about Bardock and Paragus. thumb up

Originally posted by dadudemon
Vegeta would defnitely reach LSSJ, but far after Goku did. He would have to struggle to get there, just like he did for SSJ. VEGETA would have been the one to kill Freiza, not Goku.
Dunno about this however. I thought the whole "tragic death of a prince" thing was a fitting end for Vegeta... until he got revived. erm

Originally posted by dadudemon
What would set Vegeta off to go SSJ is something I haven't thought of, yet. Cooler would exist, and Goku would fight Cooler and go SSJ against Cooler. Goku would go SSJ against him because Cooler would execute Bardock, right in front of Goku.
mmm I have to admit, that would've been more epic than Goku going SSJ the first time because of what Frieza did to stupid Krillen. Nicely thought.
And if Bardock doesn't get revived by the Dragon Balls afterward, he should at least be able to communicate with his son occasionally through King Kai or someone in the Other World. Didn't like how we never even saw Bardock in the Other World during that filler saga.

Originally posted by dadudemon
NO SSJ kid trunks and kid Goten. They all would have to reach SSJ when they were in their 20s. The eariliest SSJ would still be Gohan (at 13?) It would stay that way.
Agreed. That would be more reasonable IMO. Didn't like how the whole Super Saiyan legend became reduced to a child's play thing after the Cell saga...

Kento
Originally posted by dadudemon
Read the whole thread. Some great ideas. I agree with most of what Rid Prime said, and probably all of what Kento said.

I would make the power scaling normal. So, by the end of DBZ, Goku and Gohan would be destroy a quarter of a galaxy with just a normal Ki blast. I would make fights have to occur in a different dimension with Piccalo always transporting them.

I would still make SSJ4, but I would change the look of it completely. As well as SSJ3. The hair on SSJ3 and the missing eyebrows are stupid looking Whoopi Goldberg wanna bes.

I woulda made the SSJ4 the actual LSSJ and the whole thing about the LSSJ would be changed.

Vegeta would defnitely reach LSSJ, but far after Goku did. He would have to struggle to get there, just like he did for SSJ. VEGETA would have been the one to kill Freiza, not Goku.

Also, in the Saiyan Arc, I would have Goku hand Vegeta his a$$, and not make it nearly as even. Vegeta would NOT turn great Ape as he would be too arrogant to try that. This would make Vegeta have an epiphany of, "what the hell have I been doing all these years." Of course, Goku wil ls spare his life, and Vegeta will grow a soft spot for the Z warriors after that...however, he will still hold a grudge against Goku, a low class warrior, defeating him.

Goku's father would still be alive. Instead of planet Vegeta getting blown to bits, it would have been all of royalty (minus vegeta, of course. Vegeta would witness this, but pretend he didn't know, and work under Freiza his whole life until the Saiyan wrc) and all of the upper class noble saiyans...cause they would confront Freiza about treating the saiayns poorly and then Freiza would pwn them dead. Then, all the rest of the saiyans would be treated like dogs and low level henchmen, creating the hate. And starting up the events that lead to Freiza saga.

Of course, Goku would meet his father after the Saiyan saga, and Bardock would be a harsh, tough, rough, father, but still have a soft spot for Goku and still show it, but subtley. Bardock's backstory would still be mostly th same, but diverge when he tries to escape to find his wife (once he found out Frieza was coming...Bardock wouldn't actually try to lead the attack, King Vegeta would.)

What would set Vegeta off to go SSJ is something I haven't thought of, yet. Cooler would exist, and Goku would fight Cooler and go SSJ against Cooler. Goku would go SSJ against him because Cooler would execute Bardock, right in front of Goku.

NO SSJ kid trunks and kid Goten. They all would have to reach SSJ when they were in their 20s. The eariliest SSJ would still be Gohan (at 13?) It would stay that way.

Broly would be an entire saga after the Freiza and Cooler Saga. Broly would NOT destroy an entire galaxy, however. His form would still be USSJ with the speed of an ASSJ (like Vegeta.) Vegeta would beat down Broly, after coming out of the HBTC. He would have to work for it. Goku goes in, thinking Vegeta won't make it. HBTC training takes 14 days, instead of 1 day. The saga ends with Vegeta finally letting go of his pride, and accepting power from a namek and a half-breed saiyan (future trunks), which allows him to not kill, but knock out Broly. In this arc, the ultimate foe is Broly's father, but Broly still breaks free of the mind control device (but the mind control device never limits Broly's power.) Vegeta finds out about the mind control, and confronts Paragus about Paragus' plans to take over the now successful saiyan empire with what Paragus thought was the only SSJ. A fight comences and in so doing, Broly walks in on the fight, and witnesses Vegeta kill Paragus for his crimes against the Saiyan throne. Broly challenges Vegeta to an honor duel that will be held in 3 months. (Vegeta doesn't yet know that Broly has the USSJ form with the speed of a ASSJ, however, he does know that Broly is stronger than a regular SSJ, based on some sort of polot point I haven't thought of yet. So, they all decide the HBTC is their best bet.

Of course, Vegeta eventually wins (as I said before) with a similar "lend me your power" type of scenario. After Broly is conscious, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Gohan all prove to Broli, with the help of Bulma figuring out the device, that Broly was being controlled. Broly becomes part of the Z family. Goku and Gohan were in their training in the HBTC, during this time, and still have 13 days levft to train.

So, when Goku and Gohan come out, they step out into....

Dr. Gero would use that data to make his androids. When Goku comes out of the HBTC, all of the events for the android saga have taken place with Vegeta getting beat down and Broly taking a fall to Android 16. Cell has come along and setup his tournie and absorbed the others. Just as before, Gohan would still do his SSJ2 thing against Cell.

That's all I've got so far for my re-write.




Also, I would change the dynamic of father-son relationships for Saiyans. Still, a son would kill his father, but only when the father had reached old age or the point of not being able to fight anymore. The son would then have a fight with his father, and hopefully, kill his father. This would be considered the most honorable way for a Saiyan to die, other than in battle.

Oh, and, somehwere in here, King Cold comes to Earth for revenge with Future Trunks saving everyone again. (At this point, Goku still takes a while to get back to Earth, as well, as he decides to go off and train. We can pretend that Cooler is the older more powerful brother, but Freiza was the one more interested in ruling, so he was the one who ruled.)

So, to sum up:

Bardock's alive.
Freiza only killed the Royalty and noble saiyans.
Goku beats down Vegeta.
Vegeta and Goku go SSJ against Frieza and Cooler, respectively. They defeat them. Vegeta becomes the Saiyan King, and sets new policies that have the Saiyans as mercanaries, but also more industrious and intelligent.
Broly is part of the main story and Veget beats him, and tells him to submit to his rule. Broly is brought around by Bulma proving that Paragus was mind controlling him and Vegeta was correct in executing him for Paragus Forcing Broly to murder all of those people.
The Android and Cell Saga finish and start, respectively, while Goku and Gohan are training to fight Broly, whom they thought Vegeta would never beat.
Gohan goes SSJ2, and beats Perfect Cell, just as before.


From there, I'm all out. I'd agree with most of that, except Gokou beating Vegeta, Broli parts, keeping more saiyans alive, and Trunks and Goten not being ssj. Vegeta beating Freeza would have been better for sure. Though not sure where I stand on Cooler or Broli being put into canon. Bardock living though would prove his intelligence.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Kento
I'd agree with most of that,

Cool.

Originally posted by Kento
except Gokou beating Vegeta,

K. But A low-level full blooded Saiyan HAS to take down Vegeta so he can grow up and snap out of it enough to want to take revenge against Freiza.

Originally posted by Kento
Broli parts,

I could also do without the Broly parts. I put them in there to satisfy Broly fanboys.

Originally posted by Kento
keeping more saiyans alive,

I want teh saiyans! sad

Originally posted by Kento
and Trunks and Goten not being ssj.

They are SSJ, but not until their early 20s.

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta beating Freeza would have been better for sure.

Indeed. Vegeta got robbed...hard...friggin...core.

Originally posted by Kento
Though not sure where I stand on Cooler or Broli being put into canon. Bardock living though would prove his intelligence.

Like I said above, I just threw Broly in there for the Broly fanboys. He's not a bad character, and the story isn't that bad either. Maybe it would be better if Broly dies, but while he's dying, it's revealed to him that his father lied to him? Then, Broly is the person Goku goes to fight in the tournie in heaven when he dies after the Cell Saga?

And, yes, I wanted to see more of Bardock. He was a cool character and I liked his development.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I agree with most of what you said, especially this part here. The eye-liners on SSJ4 kinda bothered me too, but not nearly as much as the lack of eyebrows on SSJ3. Otherwise though, I was fine with the general appearance of SSJ4 (yay for having a Super Saiyan form that isn't gold/blond hair stick out tongue).

Cool. If you have any drawings, concept art that you like, etc. I'd really like to see them.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Also, co-signed... Same with the part about Bardock and Paragus. thumb up

Cool. Like I said, the story is interesting and it has more potential that what it got in movie 8. To me, Paragus trying to take over the Saiyan race seems like a much better idea than just following around Broly, watching him destroy stuff.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Dunno about this however. I thought the whole "tragic death of a prince" thing was a fitting end for Vegeta... until he got revived. erm

Hmmm. But I don't want Vegeta to dieded. sad I want him and Goku to be near each other in power, with Goku getting the edge most of the time.

Vegeta needed to kill Freiza. I thought he got horribly robbed by Goku doing it. Goku had no deep need to kill Freiza, like Vegeta did. Freiza masacred all of Vegeta's people, including his family. Vegeta had a much closer connection to his race, being their prince and future king. He had to put up with Freiza and mistreatemnt all of those years as well. Sure, Goku had the whole "revenge for the crimes against life" thing, but that wasn't nearly as good of a reason as Vegeta's.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
mmm I have to admit, that would've been more epic than Goku going SSJ the first time because of what Frieza did to stupid Krillen. Nicely thought.

Yeah, I'd like to think that a Goku, rekindling the ties with his lost family, would have been a much better way to create the plot point for Goku going SSJ for the first time.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
And if Bardock doesn't get revived by the Dragon Balls afterward, he should at least be able to communicate with his son occasionally through King Kai or someone in the Other World. Didn't like how we never even saw Bardock in the Other World during that filler saga.

Good point. That would have been cool if Bardock was seen defending against Kid Buu, in SSJ form. It would have been kind of cool. Even better, that would have been cool to see Bardock as SSJ, in the Semi-Finals, against his son. (in the tournie in heaven.)


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Agreed. That would be more reasonable IMO. Didn't like how the whole Super Saiyan legend became reduced to a child's play thing after the Cell saga...

Indeed. My biggest complaint was how retarded the SSJ ability became when the kids got it.

Kento
Originally posted by dadudemon
Cool.



K. But A low-level full blooded Saiyan HAS to take down Vegeta so he can grow up and snap out of it enough to want to take revenge against Freiza. Vegeta always wanted revenge against Freeza. I just like the fact Vegeta has 'won' all of his fights against Gokou, and wouldn't take them out myself but that's just me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I could also do without the Broly parts. I put them in there to satisfy Broly fanboys. lol The only reason I didn't agree with them is because you have Vegeta beating him. That and taking his power down.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I want teh saiyans! sad lol But Freeza and his men's biggest 'threat' came from a group of low level soldiers not any noble blood. That's just my reasoning. Though a whole group of saiyans may be cool who knows

Originally posted by dadudemon
They are SSJ, but not until their early 20s. Eh I just have no problem with them being ssj as kids. It's not like they were stronger than Piccolo. Then again Goten and Kid Trunks are two of my top favorite characters so I'm a bit bias. lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. Vegeta got robbed...hard...friggin...core. True this. Vegeta should have at least beaten Ginyu, or somebody powerful. I mean sure he could have beaten Cell but suddenly he gets cocky and wants to fight a worthy opponent instead of his instant kill weaker opponents.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Like I said above, I just threw Broly in there for the Broly fanboys. He's not a bad character, and the story isn't that bad either. Maybe it would be better if Broly dies, but while he's dying, it's revealed to him that his father lied to him? Then, Broly is the person Goku goes to fight in the tournie in heaven when he dies after the Cell Saga?

And, yes, I wanted to see more of Bardock. He was a cool character and I liked his development. Broli knows his father was controlling him, that's why he killed him. lol Broli being pure evil is the part I like about him. He was subdued, and his evil was contained until Gokou showed. But it's the part of making Vegeta beat him, and turning him good, and weaker that I don't agree with. But it's not like the PIS defeat in movie 8 was much better I guess. I think a Gokou/Vegeta combo defeat would be cool though. Super combined blast or something. But that's just me.

It depends on which version of Bardock. Didn't like the turning into a 'hero' end of the american version with the whole I'm sorry I never held you stuff. I prefer the japanese version end of Bardrock telling Gokou to kill Freeza, and take the saiyans rightful revenge stuff. Though I wonder if Gokou would be weaker if raised by Bardock...

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Kento
Though not sure where I stand on Cooler or Broli being put into canon.
I understand Broly, but why are you unsure about Cooler? Frieza's father was canon, so it only makes sense for the rest of his family to be canon as well if you ask me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I could also do without the Broly parts. I put them in there to satisfy Broly fanboys.
lol I figured as much. stick out tongue

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. Vegeta got robbed...hard...friggin...core.
Yeah, but not as much as Piccolo IMO.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Cool. If you have any drawings, concept art that you like, etc. I'd really like to see them.
Eh, I don't think I do right now, but I'll let you know if I see any.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Cool. Like I said, the story is interesting and it has more potential that what it got in movie 8. To me, Paragus trying to take over the Saiyan race seems like a much better idea than just following around Broly, watching him destroy stuff.
Indeed. no expression Couldn't have put it better myself..

Not to mention, Paragus's hatred for King Vegeta supports that kind of plan of action as well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hmmm. But I don't want Vegeta to dieded. sad I want him and Goku to be near each other in power, with Goku getting the edge most of the time.
It's not that I don't like Vegeta, but the scene with him dying (crying during his last words) was one of my most favorite parts of the entire series because it was sad, touching, emotional, and everything, making you like the character even more (well, for me anyway), but him getting revived by the Dragon Balls and then going back to his old selfish ways didn't do the character any justice IMO, especially when he kept getting robbed afterwards anyway as you put it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Vegeta needed to kill Freiza. I thought he got horribly robbed by Goku doing it. Goku had no deep need to kill Freiza, like Vegeta did. Freiza masacred all of Vegeta's people, including his family. Vegeta had a much closer connection to his race, being their prince and future king. He had to put up with Freiza and mistreatemnt all of those years as well. Sure, Goku had the whole "revenge for the crimes against life" thing, but that wasn't nearly as good of a reason as Vegeta's.
I personally thought Goku had just as much need/reason to take down Frieza as Vegeta did, since Frieza killed his father too and all (granted, Goku never got to really know his father like Vegeta kind of did his, but still), though as for the rest, I guess you have a point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Good point. That would have been cool if Bardock was seen defending against Kid Buu, in SSJ form. It would have been kind of cool. Even better, that would have been cool to see Bardock as SSJ, in the Semi-Finals, against his son. (in the tournie in heaven.)
Haha, yeah. That would've been tons better than Goku fighting Pikkon or some other random guy no one knew about before.

Originally posted by Kento
lol The only reason I didn't agree with them is because you have Vegeta beating him. That and taking his power down.
"I am the ruler of all Saiyans, even you Broly."
stick out tongue

Actually wouldn't of minded that to be honest.

Originally posted by Kento
True this. Vegeta should have at least beaten Ginyu, or somebody powerful.
He beat Zarbon who took him down the first fight if that counts. erm

Originally posted by Kento
Though I wonder if Gokou would be weaker if raised by Bardock...
I seriously, seriously doubt it, but I guess that's debatable. After all, it wasn't until Goku trained with King Kai that he surpassed his father in power, but I still think he would've been better if raised by Bardock than Master Roshi and the like...

Kento
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I understand Broly, but why are you unsure about Cooler? Frieza's father was canon, so it only makes sense for the rest of his family to be canon as well if you ask me. I don't know. I never really consider Cooler part of the family anyway as he's not canon. I think the only movie character I'd add to canon would be Tapion

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
"I am the ruler of all Saiyans, even you Broly."
stick out tongue

Actually wouldn't of minded that to be honest. "Then try your best to make me kneel before you." =P

It just bugs me that Vegeta wa so scared, and then got taken out in one attack. Even Piccolo got more time than that. I wouldn't make Vegeta so scared but I don't think I'd let him win, least not by himself.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
He beat Zarbon who took him down the first fight if that counts. erm Yes, but Zarbon wasn't a 'big' threat. He wasn't even close to being one of the strongest. And Jeice was just a throwaway character after the rest of the Ginyu Force was beaten by Gokou.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I seriously, seriously doubt it, but I guess that's debatable. After all, it wasn't until Goku trained with King Kai that he surpassed his father in power, but I still think he would've been better if raised by Bardock than Master Roshi and the like... Yes, but his pureness, and naivety was what caused him to be strong, besides the fact he was the main character. Vegeta even says it himself that the need to protect others, and not to fight to get stronger was why Gokou was so powerful. If he was raised by Bardock he'd have more of a saiyan mentality, and just fight to get stronger.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Kento
I don't know. I never really consider Cooler part of the family anyway as he's not canon.
But I'm saying he should be canon since he's Frieza's brother and all, and is much more intelligent.

"Ah, look at him. What foolishness. He's so pleased with himself that he's blinded by his arrogant pride. That could be King Vegeta on that space pod for all he knows. You've got a lot to learn... brother."

Any reason he shouldn't be with a badass quote like that?

Originally posted by Kento
"Then try your best to make me kneel before you." =P

It just bugs me that Vegeta wa so scared, and then got taken out in one attack. Even Piccolo got more time than that. I wouldn't make Vegeta so scared but I don't think I'd let him win, least not by himself.
The tale of the legendary super saiyan was something Vegeta always feared apparently, so it made sense to me as to why he was so scared of Broly at first, especially after his first attacks had no effect on him... I guess I agree though that he probably shouldn't of won by himself, and he didn't anyway, so meh.

Originally posted by Kento
Yes, but his pureness, and naivety was what caused him to be strong, besides the fact he was the main character. Vegeta even says it himself that the need to protect others, and not to fight to get stronger was why Gokou was so powerful. If he was raised by Bardock he'd have more of a saiyan mentality, and just fight to get stronger.
Yeah. I guess that's true now that ya mention it, and the only reason Goku was pure and naive like that in the first place was because he got hit in the head as a child. Otherwise, he would've been just like the rest of the saiyans.

AsbestosFlaygon
Dabura wouldd spit on Fat Buu and turn him into stone before he even gets the chance to finish him off.

menokokoro
no, daburas spit would be inefective imo, buu is magic he changes entire cities into different candy with ease i think he could stop dabura (who is much weaker) from changing him into stone.

now to answer the question to the forum. i would make it about 1/4 the size, and keep the entire story and all the cool fighting. i would also make it so that the stage for their fights acurate to their power, at about buu on they would be easily powerful enough to destroy continents on accident, if not the planet, so i would make it so they need to move the fight to some dimention, or just in space (which is actually large enough for their speed) i mean the baby saga on was just stupid, them fighting on the moon, much smaller than earth, they would have destroyed it easily

menokokoro
oh and i would make someone other than goku and vageta get powerful, or pretty much all of them, probably stop the series after either the frieza saga or the cell saga (frieza saga was the best imo). make ssj2 actually ssj4 and go through the same thing to get it, i dont like that they could go passed ssj just because they got stronger, surpassing ssj should be something unique, just like ssj was supposed to be, which brings me to my next one. i would make it so that only the elite of the sayans could go ssj i.e. goku and vageta

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by menokokoro
no, daburas spit would be inefective imo, buu is magic he changes entire cities into different candy with ease i think he could stop dabura (who is much weaker) from changing him into stone.
On the contrary, the spit would have affected him, as it was magic too (Dabura's a demon and king of his universe as well). Why would Buu have bothered to dodge the spit if it were ineffective on him? The spit turns to stone whatever it initially touches and spreads from there. Not even Buu's regenerative abilities would have saved him from that.

Unfortunately for Dabura, he waited until he was about to die (in a severely weakened state) before trying to spit on Buu as opposed to turning him to stone when he first had the chance, so Buu's victory over Dabura was pretty much PIS as far as I'm concerned.


I agree with you about the Baby saga though...

edit: While on the subject of Dabura, I also would've changed it to where he still would've been the same badass demon king as opposed to the stupid freak he became after dying. He showed love and compassion when talking with Bulma, Chi-Chi, and Videl in the Other World. no expression That was so incredibly gay... I will not forgive that, whether it was filler or not.

Ridley_Prime
mmm After looking that last part up (about Dabura becoming friends with the women of DBZ in the afterlife), turns out it was filler. Thank god... Still, it was stupid. Way to ruin his character.

And after watching the fight with Buu again just now, I see Dabura actually had plenty of perfect chances to hit Buu with his spit but didn't... He waited 'till he was on his last legs before tryin' to do so for some reason.

8LiBKvLXSm8

Ghey. Buu should've gotten turned to stone. There were many opportunities for that.

Kento
But what would have stopped Buu from just reversing it? He's turned people to all kinds of food, and if I recall he healed Babidi after Piccolo cut him in half, and didn't he heal the dog? Buu is also more powerful in every way. He may have been child-like but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been smart enough to reverse the effects.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
He showed love and compassion when talking with Bulma, Chi-Chi, and Videl in the Other World. no expression That was so incredibly gay... I will not forgive that, whether it was filler or not.

laughing laughing laughing


crylaugh

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Kento
But what would have stopped Buu from just reversing it? He's turned people to all kinds of food, and if I recall he healed Babidi after Piccolo cut him in half, and didn't he heal the dog? Buu is also more powerful in every way. He may have been child-like but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been smart enough to reverse the effects.
Fat Buu attempted to turn Evil Buu into chocolate, but had his own magic turned against him when Evil Buu directed the attack right back at him... That's enough reason for me to believe the magic of Dabura's spit would've affected Buu as well, regardless of the difference in their power levels.

Piccolo has regenerative abilities like Buu does too (maybe not as efficient, but still has 'em), and that didn't save him from getting turned to stone either.

Originally posted by dadudemon
laughing laughing laughing


crylaugh
Definitely one thing I would've done differently in the series as well, needless to say. But at least it was only filler.

Kento
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Fat Buu attempted to turn Evil Buu into chocolate, but had his own magic turned against him when Evil Buu directed the attack right back at him... That's enough reason for me to believe the magic of Dabura's spit would've affected Buu as well, regardless of the difference in their power levels.

Piccolo has regenerative abilities like Buu does too (maybe not as efficient, but still has 'em), and that didn't save him from getting turned to stone either.


Definitely one thing I would've done differently in the series as well, needless to say. But at least it was only filler. *shrugs* Evil Buu was also stronger than Fat Buu. And since Evil Buu was able to turn Fat Buu's magic on his then Fat Buu probably could do the same to Dabura. IMO anyway.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Kento
*shrugs* Evil Buu was also stronger than Fat Buu. And since Evil Buu was able to turn Fat Buu's magic on his then Fat Buu probably could do the same to Dabura. IMO anyway.
So you think someone's magic won't work against someone else if they're stronger? Look at Babidi. He's not physically strong at all, yet he easily affects more powerful beings with his magic. It's completely logical to assume Dabura's spit would've worked on Buu had it hit him.

Kento
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
So you think someone's magic won't work against someone else if they're stronger? Look at Babidi. He's not physically strong at all, yet he easily affects more powerful beings with his magic. It's completely logical to assume Dabura's spit would've worked on Buu had it hit him. Not saying it wouldn't work, just that there's a 90% chance that Buu could reverse it before it turned him completely. I'm saying he's a stronger magician also not just in power level. It's not like I'm arguing Gokou or Babidi or anything can stop the effects. But Buu has shown the ability to transform objects into something or turn them back so turning himself from stone isn't something that farfetched.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Kento
Not saying it wouldn't work, just that there's a 90% chance that Buu could reverse it before it turned him completely. I'm saying he's a stronger magician also not just in power level. It's not like I'm arguing Gokou or Babidi or anything can stop the effects. But Buu has shown the ability to transform objects into something or turn them back so turning himself from stone isn't something that farfetched.


How is he supposed to do that when he wasn't shown turning himself from chocolate back into his pink fluffy self?

On top of that, how is he supposed to have any sort of synaptic function....when his body is made of stone.





It's rather simple: a no plot hole fight would results in Dabby spitting on Buu, turning Buu to stone, and Dabura doing a low level attack with just enough power to vap the stone. No more Buu, at all.


I think that's what everyone (Rid) is trying to convey.

Ridley_Prime
Yeah, and the part with Gohan taking off his glove before the effect of the spit spread to the rest of his body was kinda PIS too since he already knew about it after seeing what happened to Krillen and Piccolo earlier. erm

Not to mention, Fat Buu doesn't think that fast, with his toddler-like personality and all. Sure, he could possibly be able to reverse the effect, but by the time toddler Buu realizes what's happening to him after being spit on, it would likely already be too late.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Yeah, and the part with Gohan taking off his glove before the effect of the spit spread to the rest of his body was kinda PIS too since he already knew about it after seeing what happened to Krillen and Piccolo earlier. erm

Not to mention, Fat Buu doesn't think that fast, with his toddler-like personality and all. Sure, he could possibly be able to reverse the effect, but by the time toddler Buu realizes what's happening to him after being spit on, it would likely already be too late.

Buu also has a much larger skin surface area whereas Gohan was almost completely covered, from head to toe, with clothes. lulz



I would use Buu's Magic to cure male pattern baldness, if I were Mr. Satan...cause Mr. Satan is looking like a rapist towards the end, there.




Also, I would get Buu to use his Magic to give me equal powers in Magic...then use those powers to....DOMINATE TEH UNIVERZESESSES!!!@!WSWDKJH!KJ~HJK~~! SKEET SKEET!

Kento
My point's not really if he would, just that he has the ability to stop/reverse it. Though it is possible Fat Buu wouldn't think of trying it but it's not like becoming stone is instantaneous so a smarter Buu would be able to. Buu has matter manipulation on a grand scale, and there is no reason to believe he can't use it on himself. Though Buu would have been screwed had Dabura spit at him instead of throwing a spear.

peejayd
* consistent power levels... long boring stare downs between opponents...

* correct me if i'm wrong but i have read somewhere that a royal blood saiyan (e.g. Vegeta) is more powerful than an ordinary saiyan (e.g. Gokou) and a saiyan-human hybrid is more powerful than a pure saiyan... if so, Vegeta should be more powerful than Gokou... and Trunks, Gohan & Goten should be more powerful than Gokou and Vegeta... and Trunks should be the most powerful of them since he is a royal blood saiyan-human hybrid... ah... my head hurts, whatever...

* i love Gokou by the way... if he's the most powerful in the series, it's a-okay for me... smile

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by dadudemon
Buu also has a much larger skin surface area whereas Gohan was almost completely covered, from head to toe, with clothes. lulz
Funny thing was, Gohan didn't have that much clothing during the fight with Cell and most of his other battles. ermm He just happened to be wearing gloves at the time Dabura spit on his hand so he could take one off and not be turned to stone... PIS

And I agree with you about Mr. Satan. lol

Originally posted by Kento
My point's not really if he would, just that he has the ability to stop/reverse it. Though it is possible Fat Buu wouldn't think of trying it but it's not like becoming stone is instantaneous so a smarter Buu would be able to. Buu has matter manipulation on a grand scale, and there is no reason to believe he can't use it on himself. Though Buu would have been screwed had Dabura spit at him instead of throwing a spear.
Yep. stick out tongue I guess we're all pretty much on the same page now.

Though Super Buu with Piccolo absorbed is about the only smart Buu there is, IMO.

As for Fat Buu being able to use his matter manipulation on himself, well yeah. That was shown when Evil Buu turned his own magic against him, but I don't think Fat Buu could change himself if he's already turned to stone completely or is chocolate, else he would've changed himself back before Evil Buu picked up the chocolate and ate it.
Or maybe he can but it just takes time, like how it takes time for Piccolo to regenerate. I dunno. In which case, Fat Buu didn't have enough time to reverse the effect on himself before Evil Buu ate/absorbed him.

Originally posted by peejayd
* correct me if i'm wrong but i have read somewhere that a royal blood saiyan (e.g. Vegeta) is more powerful than an ordinary saiyan (e.g. Gokou)
That only goes as far as how powerful they are by birth. A low-class Saiyan can still surpass an elite if they become stronger and train hard enough, like Goku did.

Originally posted by peejayd
and a saiyan-human hybrid is more powerful than a pure saiyan...
I dunno where you heard that, but that's extremely debatable. 'sides, only pure-blooded Saiyans are able to go Super Saiyan 4, as shown by Goku and Vegeta being the only ones to reach it.

Kento
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Yep. stick out tongue I guess we're all pretty much on the same page now.

Though Super Buu with Piccolo absorbed is about the only smart Buu there is, IMO. lol seems so.

I figured it would be with Piccolo and Gohan absorbed. Piccolo is just wise because of Kami and a good fighter and Gohan he gets the book smarts.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
As for Fat Buu being able to use his matter manipulation on himself, well yeah. That was shown when Evil Buu turned his own magic against him, but I don't think Fat Buu could change himself if he's already turned to stone completely or is chocolate, else he would've changed himself back before Evil Buu picked up the chocolate and ate it.
Or maybe he can but it just takes time, like how it takes time for Piccolo to regenerate. I dunno. In which case, Fat Buu didn't have enough time to reverse the effect on himself before Evil Buu ate/absorbed him. Well becoming stone isn't instant while being turned to chocolate is more so. And besides filler episodes the only person shown to be able to do anything was Vegetto when turned to candy. Which really made no sense at all that he was able to.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
That only goes as far as how powerful they are by birth. A low-class Saiyan can still surpass an elite if they become stronger and train hard enough, like Goku did. Or come back half-dead from every fight like Bardock. lol

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I dunno where you heard that, but that's extremely debatable. 'sides, only pure-blooded Saiyans are able to go Super Saiyan 4, as shown by Goku and Vegeta being the only ones to reach it. Wasn't it just because of the tail they could become ssj4? And wasn't it said that half-breeds were more powerful in the series? Or was it just one of those things that people just came up with to make sense of Gohan, Goten, and Trunks being so powerful.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Kento
lol seems so.

I figured it would be with Piccolo and Gohan absorbed. Piccolo is just wise because of Kami and a good fighter and Gohan he gets the book smarts.
Yup. stick out tongue

Originally posted by Kento
Well becoming stone isn't instant while being turned to chocolate is more so. And besides filler episodes the only person shown to be able to do anything was Vegetto when turned to candy. Which really made no sense at all that he was able to.
lol Yeah. laughing They were just doing that to hype up the fusion character before Goku and Vegeta had to separate again I guess. It was silly, but it worked.

Originally posted by Kento
Or come back half-dead from every fight like Bardock. lol
Oh yeah, that too. Man, Bardock was hardcore.

Originally posted by Kento
Wasn't it just because of the tail they could become ssj4? And wasn't it said that half-breeds were more powerful in the series? Or was it just one of those things that people just came up with to make sense of Gohan, Goten, and Trunks being so powerful.
I think it was the latter. At least I don't recall it being specifically stated in the series that half-saiyans were more powerful.

As far as the tails go, I'm still perplexed at the fact Goten and Trunks never had tails, yet Gohan did.

Kento
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
As far as the tails go, I'm still perplexed at the fact Goten and Trunks never had tails, yet Gohan did. laughing Well I believe at the end of Bojack movie we do see Goten with a tail as a baby. But it was probably just one of those things Akira just forgot, that or Gohan, and Bulma knew tails = bad news and removed them. lol

Lord Shadow Z
I would have missed out the Garlick Jnr Saga, then continued with the Android and Cell Saga. After that I probably would have moved them off-planet to do something else, perhaps finding a lost colony of Saiyans somewhere, Goku learning more about his father perhaps? Anyway just something more different than the 'oh no, theres another powerful being that absorbs people' that they did with the Buu Saga.

Some other gripes, the powering up time lessened as they got more powerful but it still dragged sometimes, the humans like Yamcha, Tien and Krillin always being less powerful than anything else was a bit of an annoyance. SSJ3 should have been the end limit, GT just messed up with the concept of SSJ4.

Other than that I still enjoy watching it now and again.

No End N Site
Honestly, Dragon Ball was cool. Now "Z"...LONG list, get ready.

1.Made Vegeta go Super Saiyajin 3.

2.Some how made Vegeta havin' a kid by Bulma, more believable. A back story worth a damn was really needed. It woulda been less of a WTF moment.

3. For real, a heart virus killin' Goku? They coulda did better than that. I mean, damn just Goku? I don't know how to kill Goku off in a way that allows the Android saga to start, but somethin' else at least.

4. Not allow Gohan to grow up to be such a Ga'damn chump. It's cool if he chooses to live like a human, that is half of who he is, but did you really have to make him that damn weak? Mystic Gohan was the shit though, they made up for that big time. Good job.

5. It was dumb to make the Prince of Saiyajin the weakest out of the whole bunch. He at least shoulda been right behind Goku.

6. Vegeto shoulda killed Buu.

7. We get that Goku's IQ aint all that high and that he's VERY naive, but he made some dumb ass decisions. I wouldn't have let him make so many of them. Like choosin' Hercule over your own damn children and lettin'em die on an explodin' Earth.

8. Allow Sayajins to breath in space. All that damn power but you still can't breathe in outer space AND you call yourself a phuckin' alien.

9. I know the cast is HUGE, but damn, everyone didn't have to turn into Average Joes and Goobers. I woulda kept the cast moderately strong and allowed them to have more important roles in the plot.

10. Never made DBGT

Even wit all that said, I still love DBand DBZ, but not you GT. You suck.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by No End N Site
5. It was dumb to make the Prince of Saiyajin the weakest out of the whole bunch. He at least shoulda been right behind Goku.
He was right behind him...

Originally posted by No End N Site
8. Allow Sayajins to breath in space. All that damn power but you still can't breathe in outer space AND you call yourself a phuckin' alien.
I disagree, because then it would've been too easy. Same as if the Saiyans were able to regenerate like Namekians. The other races gotta have at least some things unique only to them, like the Saiyans' ability to grow stronger after every battle.

No End N Site
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
He was right behind him...

I disagree, because then it would've been too easy. Same as if the Saiyans were able to regenerate like Namekians. The other races gotta have at least some things unique only to them, like the Saiyans' ability to grow stronger after every battle.


Everyone could go at least SS3 except him 'and' he had to cheat to go SS2. That's not what I would call right behind Goku who could reach the same level of Gotenks and may have been weaker than Gohan.

Breathin' in space is not that big of a deal to me, not like regeneration is. And Nemekian's have ass loads of other abilities. Givin' the Sayajins the classic space alien ability to breathe in space woulda made sense. And that ability to grow stronger after every battle was scraped. I didn't hear much about that after the Freeza saga. If DBZ had really kept that, think about how much stronger the other Saiyajin characters woulda been, includin' Cell.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by No End N Site
Everyone could go at least SS3 except him
Really? I wasn't aware Gohan could do that, or Goten and Trunks by themselves. stick out tongue

Originally posted by No End N Site
'and' he had to cheat to go SS2. That's not what I would call right behind Goku who could reach the same level of Gotenks and may have been weaker than Gohan.
Vegeta was able to go SS2 even after he was no longer under Babidi's influcence though. The only thing I call cheating as far as all that goes is Vegeta having to use those blutz waves to go SS4 in GT, but like you said, DBGT sucks anyway.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Breathin' in space is not that big of a deal to me, not like regeneration is. And Nemekian's have ass loads of other abilities. Givin' the Sayajins the classic space alien ability to breathe in space woulda made sense.
I suppose so.. After all, everyone (including Krillen) was able to breathe in space in that one movie The World's Strongest. Bardock had to have been breathing in outer space too when he confronted Frieza before his death.

Originally posted by No End N Site
And that ability to grow stronger after every battle was scraped. I didn't hear much about that after the Freeza saga.
That may have been so, but that didn't mean it was scrapped. Only the concept of power levels was scrapped after the Frieza saga, and Goku's Kaioken, since Super Saiyan made it obsolete.

Originally posted by No End N Site
If DBZ had really kept that, think about how much stronger the other Saiyajin characters woulda been, includin' Cell.
Cell actually did grow stronger because of the Saiyan cells within him, after he came back from self-destructing on King Kai's planet, which gave birth to that "Super Perfect Cell" form of his that rivaled SS2 Gohan (also attained Goku's Instant Transmission in the process).

No End N Site
Really? I wasn't aware Gohan could do that, or Goten and Trunks by themselves. stick out tongue

Gohan can go Mystic, even better. Doin' it fused is better than not doin' it at all.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Vegeta was able to go SS2 even after he was no longer under Babidi's influcence though. The only thing I call cheating as far as all that goes is Vegeta having to use those blutz waves to go SS4 in GT, but like you said, DBGT sucks anyway.

I don't think Vegeta coulda went SS2 wit out goin Majin 1st.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I suppose so.. After all, everyone (including Krillen) was able to breathe in space in that one movie The World's Strongest. Bardock had to have been breathing in outer space too when he confronted Frieza before his death.

Hmmmm...maybe they can. Vegeta went SS out in space too, didn't he?

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime

Cell actually did grow stronger because of the Saiyan cells within him, after he came back from self-destructing on King Kai's planet, which gave birth to that "Super Perfect Cell" form of his that rivaled SS2 Gohan (also attained Goku's Instant Transmission in the process).

Okay, so it was used again as a plot device to make the bad guy stronger so that the final battle can seem epic (which it was, IMO). I just wish it was incorporated more in the story cuz it's a cool ability that the creators shoulda built on. What about when, Trunks lost to Cell, or Vegeta, or Goku? How about when Goten lost to Trunks or when Gotenks 1st lost to Buu? Where was it then?

menokokoro
i just wish the show was more story based, instead of "I'm uber powerful, and you're uber powerful, lets see who is more uber powerful"

King Kandy
I'm going to focus on the sagas up to Frieza, because the other ones or just beyond help.

First off I would have made Radditz stick around. I mean i'm really amazed that Goku's brother got dispatched so quick and with so little role in the plot. And I would have made the saiyans have way more camaraderie. I mean, their biased against by Frieza and treated like slaves, i'd hope they'd at least have some commitment to staying unified and keeping the species alive. That's why I'd make it so Nappa and Vegeta actually got really pissed that Radditz died.

Likewise, i'd make it so the power of the three were way closer together. I just can't believe that Radditz was so far below Nappa, and Nappa equally far below Vegeta. What was the point of even having Radditz around, then? The Saibamen were just stupid and I'd get rid of them. Maybe give them some other low-class survivors as soldiers?

I would have not had all the aliens be so stupid about power levels. I mean it took Captain Ginyu to realize "hey, these guys can change their power levels at will"! It's his job to know stuff like that... why didn't the rest of the Ginyu force know as well? I mean, they're supposed to be combat experts not complete morons, even if they are comic relief.

I would have made the Ginyu force way more of a threat even once Goku appeared. As you may have noticed, I don't like it when one character is really far above the others. Here, Burter and Jeice would have a been a real challenge to Goku and Ginyu would have been able to at least match him without trickery.

Ginyu shouldn't have been a dumbass and realized he can't get full potential out of a body he just possessed. I mean, he has used that technique before, right? Why the hell didn't he know he'd have trouble with it?

The confrontation with Frieza, I thought it went perfectly well though I might have either given his third form more screen time (it was barely around compared to the others) or just skip it completely and have him use his final form to beat Piccolo.

The fight with Goku I felt went perfectly fine and was a good ending. I might have ended it there though, with Goku genuinely dead.

menokokoro
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm going to focus on the sagas up to Frieza, because the other ones or just beyond help.

First off I would have made Radditz stick around. I mean i'm really amazed that Goku's brother got dispatched so quick and with so little role in the plot. And I would have made the saiyans have way more camaraderie. I mean, their biased against by Frieza and treated like slaves, i'd hope they'd at least have some commitment to staying unified and keeping the species alive. That's why I'd make it so Nappa and Vegeta actually got really pissed that Radditz died.

Likewise, i'd make it so the power of the three were way closer together. I just can't believe that Radditz was so far below Nappa, and Nappa equally far below Vegeta. What was the point of even having Radditz around, then? The Saibamen were just stupid and I'd get rid of them. Maybe give them some other low-class survivors as soldiers?

I would have not had all the aliens be so stupid about power levels. I mean it took Captain Ginyu to realize "hey, these guys can change their power levels at will"! It's his job to know stuff like that... why didn't the rest of the Ginyu force know as well? I mean, they're supposed to be combat experts not complete morons, even if they are comic relief.

I would have made the Ginyu force way more of a threat even once Goku appeared. As you may have noticed, I don't like it when one character is really far above the others. Here, Burter and Jeice would have a been a real challenge to Goku and Ginyu would have been able to at least match him without trickery.

Ginyu shouldn't have been a dumbass and realized he can't get full potential out of a body he just possessed. I mean, he has used that technique before, right? Why the hell didn't he know he'd have trouble with it?

The confrontation with Frieza, I thought it went perfectly well though I might have either given his third form more screen time (it was barely around compared to the others) or just skip it completely and have him use his final form to beat Piccolo.

The fight with Goku I felt went perfectly fine and was a good ending. I might have ended it there though, with Goku genuinely dead. everything you said, i completely agree with. thats what i meant by making it more story based instead of stupid fights. i especially agree with him dying after frieza, everything after that was just dumb and didn't really make sense for the story. i mean red ribbon army was something goku fought when he was a kid, why would they have one thing as powerful as those, let alone...what 6. and then there is the fact that after frieza, all the bad guys had to be killed with a single blast or they would come back, the lack of originality there really bothered me. also, this is probably the biggest thing that bothers me, they were able to destroy planets in the sayan saga, and yet, every single fight was on earth, and yet it was not vaporized from their power ups, let alone the energy blasts they use. i mean how much more powerful would a simple ki blast be at the end of the series? probably just as powerful or more powerful as vagetas...what was it finish buster? idk the one that would have destroyed the earth if goku didn't stop him. they should have been fighting in space and destroying planets while fighting, it would have been way more epic, and would make a lot more sense

Kento
Originally posted by King Kandy
Ginyu shouldn't have been a dumbass and realized he can't get full potential out of a body he just possessed. I mean, he has used that technique before, right? Why the hell didn't he know he'd have trouble with it? I think it's because it was strictly a Gokou PIS thing. Gokou's strength comes from his body and mind being one type of thing.

dadudemon
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm going to focus on the sagas up to Frieza, because the other ones or just beyond help.

First off I would have made Radditz stick around. I mean i'm really amazed that Goku's brother got dispatched so quick and with so little role in the plot. And I would have made the saiyans have way more camaraderie. I mean, their biased against by Frieza and treated like slaves, i'd hope they'd at least have some commitment to staying unified and keeping the species alive. That's why I'd make it so Nappa and Vegeta actually got really pissed that Radditz died.

I like this idea, a lot, actually. It makes perfect sense. The Saiyans are a warrior race where fighting ability is honored and respected. It only makes sense that if there were only a few left and the Saiyans were the strongest, second only to Frieza and his upper lieutenants, that they'd be a very close tight group.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Likewise, i'd make it so the power of the three were way closer together. I just can't believe that Radditz was so far below Nappa, and Nappa equally far below Vegeta. What was the point of even having Radditz around, then? The Saibamen were just stupid and I'd get rid of them. Maybe give them some other low-class survivors as soldiers?

No, that makes perfect sense. It couldn't have been designed better.

The Saiyan race is a caste system based on power levels at birth.

Goku and Radditz were born to low-level warriors (initially, they were low-level. Bardock got stronger by beating the odds on his suicide missions, over and over.) They were at the bottom of the barrel. Radditz was actually stronger than he should have been due to them getting so many tough missions.

Nappa was the general of the Saiyan military: he should be second in power ONLY to the royal family: the Vegetas. Now, you can definitely make a case for Vegeta being too far beyond Nappa beause Nappa should have been second only to royalty, but who's to say what the gap should be? It makes sense that the royal family, in a caste system that "casted" by family power-levels and at birth power-levels, would have the royal ruling family at much stronger levels than even the next highest caste. They have to rule and ruling is determined, quite literally, by strength.

So, I agree with how it was done, in the manga. That's really how it should have been if we stick the original idea of the social and political systems in the warrior race.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I would have not had all the aliens be so stupid about power levels. I mean it took Captain Ginyu to realize "hey, these guys can change their power levels at will"! It's his job to know stuff like that... why didn't the rest of the Ginyu force know as well? I mean, they're supposed to be combat experts not complete morons, even if they are comic relief.

Indeed. Vegeta AND Nappa both changed their power levels. Frieza ran around in a very "condensed" power level form. Obviously, everyone knew that power-levels greatly fluctuated. It was stupid that it was written that way.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I would have made the Ginyu force way more of a threat even once Goku appeared. As you may have noticed, I don't like it when one character is really far above the others. Here, Burter and Jeice would have a been a real challenge to Goku and Ginyu would have been able to at least match him without trickery.

No. That was one of the most awesome things about Goku. It was thoroughly entertaining that Goku showed up, after the most intense training ever, being far above everyone elsee except Frieza. That was quite enjoyable watching him WTF pwn the Ginyu people.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Ginyu shouldn't have been a dumbass and realized he can't get full potential out of a body he just possessed. I mean, he has used that technique before, right? Why the hell didn't he know he'd have trouble with it?

There was no way to know that. In fact, it was almost directly stated, and was certainly implied, that he didn't have problems with other bodies. It would seem that Goku's body was a strange exception: possibly because he was a martial arts master, at that point.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The confrontation with Frieza, I thought it went perfectly well though I might have either given his third form more screen time (it was barely around compared to the others) or just skip it completely and have him use his final form to beat Piccolo.

Hmmm. I also didn't like that third form. The large adult form, the straight to the angular form, yeah, that seems much better.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The fight with Goku I felt went perfectly fine and was a good ending. I might have ended it there though, with Goku genuinely dead.

Nah. I didn't want Goku to die. However, I liked that, in the anime, Vegeta got to see Goku in SSJ form before they left. It's just wrong that Vegeta wouldn't have gotten to see SSJ Goku before he died. It would be cruel and wrong for that to happen to Vegeta.



And, KK, don't take me going down your ideas as offensive. I think your ideas are awesome and I love talking about these things.



Originally posted by Kento
I think it's because it was strictly a Gokou PIS thing. Gokou's strength comes from his body and mind being one type of thing.

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with that. Goku was a martial arts master at that point: using his absurd skill to get the most out of his body. The body is stronger with the mind of the master...I guess.

Astner
More information.

The power level system was interesting, but an explanation of how it works would be nice.

Other data would be nice too. Strength, speed and destructive capabilities should have been established. It would've save people all around the world a lot of time.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by No End N Site
Hmmmm...maybe they can. Vegeta went SS out in space too, didn't he?
Yeah, he did.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Okay, so it was used again as a plot device to make the bad guy stronger so that the final battle can seem epic (which it was, IMO). I just wish it was incorporated more in the story cuz it's a cool ability that the creators shoulda built on. What about when, Trunks lost to Cell, or Vegeta, or Goku? How about when Goten lost to Trunks or when Gotenks 1st lost to Buu? Where was it then?
Oh, now I see where you're coming from. Yeah, they should've incorporated it more in the later sagas.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm going to focus on the sagas up to Frieza, because the other ones or just beyond help.
Methinks you're wrong when it comes to the Android/Cell saga, though I'll agree that the Buu saga in its entirety is indeed beyond help...

As for the rest, basically what dadudemon said.

Originally posted by menokokoro
i mean how much more powerful would a simple ki blast be at the end of the series? probably just as powerful or more powerful as vagetas...what was it finish buster?
No, that's one of Trunks's attacks. You must be thinking of the Gallick Gun.

Ridley_Prime
Sorry for the double post; forgot to reply to these other few parts earlier.

Originally posted by menokokoro
and then there is the fact that after frieza, all the bad guys had to be killed with a single blast or they would come back, the lack of originality there really bothered me.
So wait, you think Frieza getting cut in half by his own attack and then being rebuilt with mechanical parts was original?

Originally posted by menokokoro
also, this is probably the biggest thing that bothers me, they were able to destroy planets in the sayan saga, and yet, every single fight was on earth
I don't recall the fight with Kid Buu being on earth, since he blew it up and all. The final battle with Baby in GT wasn't on earth either, as they fought on the Tuffle planet. Need I go on?

Originally posted by menokokoro
and yet it was not vaporized from their power ups, let alone the energy blasts they use.
That would've been stupid if it was.

Originally posted by menokokoro
they should have been fighting in space and destroying planets while fighting, it would have been way more epic, and would make a lot more sense
Not really, since Saiyans cannot breathe in space like Frieza, Cell, etc. can. If they could, then that would've been another story.

King Kandy
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that makes perfect sense. It couldn't have been designed better.

The Saiyan race is a caste system based on power levels at birth.

Goku and Radditz were born to low-level warriors (initially, they were low-level. Bardock got stronger by beating the odds on his suicide missions, over and over.) They were at the bottom of the barrel. Radditz was actually stronger than he should have been due to them getting so many tough missions.

Nappa was the general of the Saiyan military: he should be second in power ONLY to the royal family: the Vegetas. Now, you can definitely make a case for Vegeta being too far beyond Nappa beause Nappa should have been second only to royalty, but who's to say what the gap should be? It makes sense that the royal family, in a caste system that "casted" by family power-levels and at birth power-levels, would have the royal ruling family at much stronger levels than even the next highest caste. They have to rule and ruling is determined, quite literally, by strength.

So, I agree with how it was done, in the manga. That's really how it should have been if we stick the original idea of the social and political systems in the warrior race.
I agree with you from the perspective of examining Saiyan culture, but from a storyline perspective it didn't work very well to me and it kind of made you stop caring about the defeated foes when they were so rapidly surpassed.

As an alternative, I think something that could have worked was if Radditz was closer to their level, but they still acted like he was way weaker because of their ingrained attitude about caste. Then when Goku was able to defeat them even though he was lower, Vegeta would have realized he should have known because of Radditz, but he'd never looked at him through a clear lens until his defeat by Goku, after which it was too late.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No. That was one of the most awesome things about Goku. It was thoroughly entertaining that Goku showed up, after the most intense training ever, being far above everyone elsee except Frieza. That was quite enjoyable watching him WTF pwn the Ginyu people.
Tastes do differ. I personally have never really enjoyed complete pwnage unless I actually dislike the character being beaten (like Sasuke vs Kirabi or something) or really want to see the character kick ass. However I was never crazy about Goku, and I enjoyed the Ginyu force, so it seemed really unsatisfactory. Especially since Recoome had had a great fight with Vegeta prior, and it really did discredit to the other characters for Goku to roll over them so easily.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There was no way to know that. In fact, it was almost directly stated, and was certainly implied, that he didn't have problems with other bodies. It would seem that Goku's body was a strange exception: possibly because he was a martial arts master, at that point.
I might be able to accept that if not for the fact that Goku said that he couldn't control Ginyu's ki, so it was logical Ginyu couldn't control his. That made it seem like it was a problem to be expected. If it was ever actually stated that it was something specific to Goku's body, then I wouldn't have minded it at all. I also thought the anime handled it better by stating that Ginyu was gradually learning to draw out more and more of Goku's power, while in the anime he just looked like a fool.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah. I didn't want Goku to die. However, I liked that, in the anime, Vegeta got to see Goku in SSJ form before they left. It's just wrong that Vegeta wouldn't have gotten to see SSJ Goku before he died. It would be cruel and wrong for that to happen to Vegeta.
Eh, I disagree. It was a real "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" and a real tear jerker that helped redeem Vegeta. A great end to someone who by the end of the Frieza saga, while not all terrible, still was definitely not one of the heroes.

If the anime ended at the Frieza saga, it could have gone either way. It was mentioned that the original super saiyan self-destructed from his unrestrained power, so having that be the fate of Goku might have worked. I think the whole planet exploding spaceship getaway was really, really stupid though and they either should have killed him proper or not have the planet explode at all.

If we're going to go a saga further, then I think he should die. He overshadows the rest of the cast too much. They handled it in the android saga okay up until the time chamber, where he came out too far ahead again.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Methinks you're wrong when it comes to the Android/Cell saga, though I'll agree that the Buu saga in its entirety is indeed beyond help...

As for the rest, basically what dadudemon said.
I liked the androids actually, and something interesting could have come of them. However I didn't like cell at all. Such a contrived character. The biggest problem is it just makes no sense at all for the androids being that powerful.

To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by King Kandy
I liked the androids actually, and something interesting could have come of them.
And something did. They became a part of the perfect being. stick out tongue

Originally posted by King Kandy
However I didn't like cell at all. Such a contrived character.
In a general sense, he may have been, but he wasn't really by Dragon Ball's standards.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The biggest problem is it just makes no sense at all for the androids being that powerful.
The reason for their strength was pretty much explained here.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c003/7.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c003/8.html

Originally posted by King Kandy
To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.
Trunks beat Frieza and his father in a flash though, and if the Androids were not superior to Frieza, Trunks would've just as easily done the same to them, which would've made a damn short arc.

But aside from that, I agree in that it would've been a bit more interesting had Goku and Vegeta stayed dead.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The reason for their strength was pretty much explained here.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c003/7.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c003/8.html
That's an okay explanation for them being, say, Nappa level. Definitely not Frieza level.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Trunks beat Frieza and his father in a flash though, and if the Androids were not superior to Frieza, Trunks would've just as easily done the same to them, which would've made a damn short arc.

But aside from that, I agree in that it would've been a bit more interesting had Goku and Vegeta stayed dead.
Oh yeah. I wouldn't have included mecha-frieza part of the arc due to it being completely retarded. Frieza definitely should have stayed dead to Goku, and we did not need to see his father. It was so disrespectful to a character who at the very least I respected for power and ruthlessness.

Ridley_Prime
I dunno. I think King Cold would've made a great villain had he not been just a throwaway character and if he was more fleshed out like his son was with more screentime and stuff (same with Dabura), and perhaps a transformation or two. Definitely agree though that the whole Mecha Frieza thing shouldn't have been included at all, as it did the character no justice...

dadudemon
Originally posted by King Kandy
I might be able to accept that if not for the fact that Goku said that he couldn't control Ginyu's ki, so it was logical Ginyu couldn't control his. That made it seem like it was a problem to be expected. If it was ever actually stated that it was something specific to Goku's body, then I wouldn't have minded it at all. I also thought the anime handled it better by stating that Ginyu was gradually learning to draw out more and more of Goku's power, while in the anime he just looked like a fool.

But wasn't Goku close to death in Ginyu's body? On top of that, he was severely injured. Hard to control your Ki when your life energy is fading towards death, right?
And, lulz at the rest.


Originally posted by King Kandy
Eh, I disagree. It was a real "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" and a real tear jerker that helped redeem Vegeta. A great end to someone who by the end of the Frieza saga, while not all terrible, still was definitely not one of the heroes.

But wasn't the whole series based around the magical dragonballs? Eventually, Vegeta would have been revived. But, yeah, Vegeta's speech right before death was quite awesome.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If the anime ended at the Frieza saga, it could have gone either way. It was mentioned that the original super saiyan self-destructed from his unrestrained power, so having that be the fate of Goku might have worked. I think the whole planet exploding spaceship getaway was really, really stupid though and they either should have killed him proper or not have the planet explode at all.

If we're going to go a saga further, then I think he should die. He overshadows the rest of the cast too much. They handled it in the android saga okay up until the time chamber, where he came out too far ahead again.

Yeah, we have different tastes on this. I really wanted Goku to live and for Vegeta to see a Super Saiyan. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of Vegeta turning Super Saiyan and defeating Frieza. That might have been me, actually. I forget. But, that sounded good. That would have been a much sweeter deal, imo. Vegeta deserved it more than anyone.


Originally posted by King Kandy
I liked the androids actually, and something interesting could have come of them. However I didn't like cell at all. Such a contrived character. The biggest problem is it just makes no sense at all for the androids being that powerful.

Why not make them that powerful? They have an "eternal" power supply. Dr. Gero was an absurdly intelligent robotics engineer. But, you're right, Dr. Gero wouldn't know that the SSJ form existed (which is like...what....50 times more powerful than regular powered up base form?)

It would have been nice for Trunks to come back in time and then seen the Z warriors handle 17 and 18 like they were mildly amusing. And THEN have Cell come by and consume the other androids. But, make it smarter than the series: make the androids power sources be the target, and not the androids.

Originally posted by King Kandy
To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.


Oh, okay. I don't like this version as well as th original. It's still interesting. But, I like Goku the most. He's my fave. He eats absurd amounts of food, he loves to fight, and he fights for righteousness. Cool dude...n'stuff. I want him to remain as the main character. I liked the whole mystical hidden power thing about Gohan...maybe more of that, too?

menokokoro
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
So wait, you think Frieza getting cut in half by his own attack and then being rebuilt with mechanical parts was original? eh, not really, but i would have ended it at the end of that fight, i think i said that anyway. so the mecho frieza would not be there lol


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I don't recall the fight with Kid Buu being on earth, since he blew it up and all. The final battle with Baby in GT wasn't on earth either, as they fought on the Tuffle planet. Need I go on? I KNEW SOMEONE WOULD SAY THAT! lol i was being facetious, i knew that they weren't ALL on earth, but my point still stands.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Not really, since Saiyans cannot breathe in space like Frieza, Cell, etc. can. If they could, then that would've been another story. they can hold their breath easily enough, i mean vageta was in space when he went super sayan.

King Kandy
Originally posted by dadudemon
But wasn't Goku close to death in Ginyu's body? On top of that, he was severely injured. Hard to control your Ki when your life energy is fading towards death, right?
And, lulz at the rest.
That WOULD be true, but they actually explicitly had Goku say that on top of being injured, he couldn't control Ginyu's body, and that the same should go for Ginyu in his body, which ended up being totally accurate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But wasn't the whole series based around the magical dragonballs? Eventually, Vegeta would have been revived. But, yeah, Vegeta's speech right before death was quite awesome.
I was pretty perplexed why they wanted to bring him back at all, since he was still in his "conquer the universe" phase before he died.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, we have different tastes on this. I really wanted Goku to live and for Vegeta to see a Super Saiyan. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of Vegeta turning Super Saiyan and defeating Frieza. That might have been me, actually. I forget. But, that sounded good. That would have been a much sweeter deal, imo. Vegeta deserved it more than anyone.
He did, but it was obvious as soon as we heard of the super saiyan legend, that that was going to be Goku's role. He is the main character after all, and Vegeta's death was one of the few things that worked really well imo. It was the fulfillment of Goku's role to become the super saiyan, and if it was vegeta all it would have done was give credence to his "only a high class saiyan can be SSJ" ideas he was carrying.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, okay. I don't like this version as well as th original. It's still interesting. But, I like Goku the most. He's my fave. He eats absurd amounts of food, he loves to fight, and he fights for righteousness. Cool dude...n'stuff. I want him to remain as the main character. I liked the whole mystical hidden power thing about Gohan...maybe more of that, too?
Gohan's hidden power was expressed when he was the only one who could be the true super saiyan (at the time what SSJ2 was considered to be), and that was the manifestation of the hidden power that we had only seen glimpses of so far. But this didn't work, because of two reasons: One, Goku did really, really well against Cell first which made it seem like less was at stake. And two, after that saga everyone and their mother could go SSJ2, so they needed mystic Gohan to make him special again. Since the Buu saga isn't included, SSJ2 is Gohan's true power and his alone.

Bro SMASH
I would have kept Bulma and Yamcha as a couple and hook Vegeta up with someone like Launch.

Maybe I would have also kind of changed Cell a little bit too. His goal of doing nothing but destroying and killing people is just too...typical.

After he absorbed the androids, I would have him go to another planet full of evil aliens, destroy its leader, take over that planet's fighters and THEN attack Earth. Then an all-out epic war would begin, with either Goku or Gohan fighting against Cell.

Bro SMASH
Originally posted by King Kandy
Okay, let me use another way of explaining this: At the end of the saiyan sage, Vegeta and Goku had equal power (actually there's a slight edge to Vegeta since Goku had help, but we'll just say they're equal.) Then when we get to Namek, Goku is way stronger then Vegeta? Why so? Let's examine what they did in between.

A. Goku ran laps and did push-ups in a spaceship.

B. Vegeta constantly fought against people stronger then him, broke new barriers of strength, almost died numerous times and came back stronger then before, and beat guys he didn't even have a chance of hurting before.

Vegeta was OBVIOUSLY working harder but somehow he comes out weaker? WTF?

A. That's the point. Goku continously did training that was more difficult than anything he had done before and while he was doing that, he experienced two-near death instances. Also, remember, he was doing this in 6 days straight.

B. Most of the the time, Vegeta fought guys weaker than he was because all he mainly wanted was the Dragonballs to get immortality. The only times he got stronger was after his first fight with Zarbon and his fight with Recoome so all of that really didn't much for him compared to what Goku had done.

deathcon27
i would have given ssj2 more episodes in which its included also i would have put a super kaioken 3 (and maybe even x20)

Bullmonky
Change? I'd get rid of dbz kai. I enjoy fan service, not replacing all the familiar voice overs and all the censorship

Ridley_Prime
Kai actually made DBZ more watchable as far as getting rid of pointless fillers and such (screw fanservice), and had better voices for some of the characters. Its biggest con though was the lack of Bruce Faulconer soundtracks, but I kinda praise them for not giving the Buu saga the Kai treatment since it was pretty much a shit arc anyway, even if you took out the worst of it like Kai did with the other sagas. Why they put shitty GT back on the air though after Kai ended with the Cell Games, is beyond me.

ares834
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Kai and find it to be far better than the original anime.

Obviously it cut's out the filler, which is great IMO, but it also drastically improves the dialogue making it closer to the anime. For example, Goku's I am a Super Sayan speech is far better in Kai than his pseudo-Jesus one in the funmation dub.

Astner
Originally posted by Astner
More information.

The power level system was interesting, but an explanation of how it works would be nice.

Other data would be nice too. Strength, speed and destructive capabilities should have been established. It would've save people all around the world a lot of time.
Wow! I was really stupid a year ago.

So what would I've changed now?

First and foremost I'd add another saga centering around time travel and parallel universes. Were we'd be able to see characters like Trunks and the alternate reality bastard child of Goku and Bulma to expand on the Z Fighters roster. Because no one likes Krillin and Tien.

Secondly I'd work on the consistency in power, and use something like pocket dimensions for battles to protect the surroundings in the later arcs. I'm thinking something akin to Frieza's imprisonment ball, but dimensionally folded to encompass the size of the universe.

I'd also try to incorporate a broader range of techniques, and maybe at some point make chi and magic overlap. I mean Goku doesn't have to be able to conjure clothes like Kibito or Piccolo, but the matter manipulation Kai demonstrated could've been used creatively.

BloodRain
Goku gambling with the Earth and up because he wants the next generation to start taking his place. Good idea in theory, but done at the worst possible times.
-Stopping the equaled fight against Cell then healing him.
Caused the death of himself, King Kai, Bubbles and his planet. Not to mention the perma-death of 16. And if the risk of getting Gohan to SS2 didnt work everyone would have died.
-Not killing Buu when he had the chance.
Caused the death of the whole population save for a dozen, the Earth and some other planets. All for two Krillen-level children who's fusion failed until reaching SS3, which Goku did not plan for.

Now if it was Vegeta's choice...



I would have liked to see a major villain with some deph and plan, back to what Frieza was. Cell and Buu were too similar in goals and abilities. Perhaps a rival to the Saiyan race who were mostly wiped out by Frieza's army, seeking vengeance and claiming Earth for themselves. It would take away the Hax Cell and Buu had, leaving more room for actual combat. And would take away the funnel fight paths they always take: Beat henchmen > Main fighters are no-shows > Others fight Boss and lose > Main's come back and stomp/stalemate > PIS defeat.
Having more heavy hitters would create some purpose of having anyone but Goku and Gohan.

Jurmey
Just off the top of my head, make Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo, Yajirobe and even Chiatzu stonger, not on the same level as the saiyans, just enough to make useful. in Dragonball they were all at one time on the same level as Goku, making them essential... although, they never all got together to combat a mutual enemy like in DBZ. the sad thing about DBZ is that Yamcha ,Chiatzu and Yajirobe pretty much ran their course by the end of the Saiyan Saga. Though considerably weaker than the others, Tien was essential and helpful to the main warriors till the end, though he was hardly around as well. Krillin was done for after Frieza Saga and Piccolo faded away too after his second encounter with Cell.

Q99
Super Saiyan Raditz

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