Elders of the universe discussion thread

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Alfheim
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/runnerelder.htm

The reason why Runner attempted to help Grandmaster destroy the universe is unrevealed; it's possible he felt he owed Grandmaster a debt, like Collector, but more than likely he was just bored and in it for the excitement. It was pretty out of character, but not nearly so much as Gardener (a total pacifist trying to destroy the universe?!?).I think the writers just used all the Elders they had, even if it made no sense, that's why they had to turn Contemplator into a Skrull imposter; the real Contemplator would never take part in such a plot. The two Elders who fomented this plot were the Astronomer and Grandmaster, Runner and the others had no real knowledge of the plan until it was near fruition.
It was Steve Englehart, who can write a great story, but tends to rationalize things however he sees fit.

erm

Do you think that writers have been taking liberties with the Elders of the universes characters in order to write a "good" story?

Nod
Originally posted by Alfheim
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/runnerelder.htm

The reason why Runner attempted to help Grandmaster destroy the universe is unrevealed; it's possible he felt he owed Grandmaster a debt, like Collector, but more than likely he was just bored and in it for the excitement. It was pretty out of character, but not nearly so much as Gardener (a total pacifist trying to destroy the universe?!?).I think the writers just used all the Elders they had, even if it made no sense, that's why they had to turn Contemplator into a Skrull imposter; the real Contemplator would never take part in such a plot. The two Elders who fomented this plot were the Astronomer and Grandmaster, Runner and the others had no real knowledge of the plan until it was near fruition.
It was Steve Englehart, who can write a great story, but tends to rationalize things however he sees fit.

erm

Do you think that writers have been taking liberties with the Elders of the universes characters in order to write a "good" story? hug4

Juntai
Originally posted by Alfheim

Do you think that writers have been taking liberties with the Elders of the universes characters in order to write a "good" story? No more or less than they do for pretty much any character. Good characters get thrown under the bus all the time.

Inhuman
Just because they are all elders of the universe doesn't mean they are some sort of group. I think thats why writers make a mistake with them the few times they have tried to make a story happen with them.
They all have very different personalties and very different goals.
They should all be written as individuals.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Juntai
No more or less than they do for pretty much any character. Good characters get thrown under the bus all the time.

That doesnt make it right.


Originally posted by Inhuman
Just because they are all elders of the universe doesn't mean they are some sort of group. I think thats why writers make a mistake with them the few times they have tried to make a story happen with them.
They all have very different personalties and very different goals.
They should all be written as individuals.

I thought they were a group but the problem is sometimes they have different goals for example Contempltor is different from Champion. At any rate even if they are treated as individuals sometimes they are not portrayed correctly in my opinion.

Inhuman
Originally posted by Alfheim
At any rate even if they are treated as individuals sometimes they are not portrayed correctly in my opinion.

Right, Elders should not have any trouble with anyone who is under herald level. Even heralds should be nothing to an elder.

Barring some who are not warriors or fighters by any means.

Laminator_X
What's the Champion's on-panel win-loss record? His portrayal is so far out of step with his character concept it is just sad. I really wish he'd shown up in Annihilation in some sort of Horatius at the Bridge type of scenario. That would have been cool.

The Grandmaster is about the only one they really seem to use properly on a semi-regular basis.

Mr. Slippyfist
They sucked then, and they suck now. Except Runner and Grandmaster.

I don't see how they warrant a thread on their appearances in other comics... 20 years ago.

Closing.

Inhuman
yeah most of them suck

Alfheim
Originally posted by Laminator_X
What's the Champion's on-panel win-loss record? His portrayal is so far out of step with his character concept it is just sad. I really wish he'd shown up in Annihilation in some sort of Horatius at the Bridge type of scenario. That would have been cool.



Yeah. sad

Originally posted by Inhuman
yeah most of them suck

I disagree The Gardener is actually cool, he used to be an ally of Adam Warlock and hes taken on The Stranger, the fight was pretty cool.

Contemplator is cool, he has vast mental powers altered different timeleines and has met Captain America

Champion would be cool but they have ruined the character.

Possessor is cool. I think I saw a scan if him fighting Thor and Hercules but im not sure if that happened, I think he fought Hercules and Valkyrie instead.

Collector has had an upgrade.

cant be assed to go thorugh the others but they could be cool but it depends on the writer.

What the **** was Mark thinking when he made the Juidactor he/she looks wack....does Mark work with DC alot?

Laminator_X
There were some cool stories in Thor way back featuring The Possesor, both as opponent and as an ally. The Collector played a key role in some classic Avengers stories as well. The concept has a lot of story potential (mmmmm, JLA Avengers).

Sadly, I think the last time anyone did something particularly interesting with them as a group was probably Thanos Quest, and that was a long time ago.

Juntai
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah. sad



I disagree The Gardener is actually cool, he used to be an ally of Adam Warlock and hes taken on The Stranger, the fight was pretty cool.

Contemplator is cool, he has vast mental powers altered different timeleines and has met Captain America

Champion would be cool but they have ruined the character.

Possessor is cool. I think I saw a scan if him fighting Thor and Hercules but im not sure if that happened, I think he fought Hercules and Valkyrie instead.

Collector has had an upgrade.

cant be assed to go thorugh the others but they could be cool but it depends on the writer.

What the **** was Mark thinking when he made the Juidactor he/she looks wack....does Mark work with DC alot? Having decent feats now and then doesn't make you a good character.

llagrok
Originally posted by Juntai
Having decent feats now and then doesn't make you a good character.

As far as the Champion goes, I don't think it was JUST the low showings that ruined the character.

Alfheim
Originally posted by llagrok
As far as the Champion goes, I don't think it was JUST the low showings that ruined the character.

I actually agree with you.

Juntai
Originally posted by llagrok
As far as the Champion goes, I don't think it was JUST the low showings that ruined the character. It was more to the fact he was saying the person is a good character, because they got an upgrade, or performed such and such feat. The harsh reality is, none of them save maybe Grand Master are actually good characters.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Juntai
It was more to the fact he was saying the person is a good character, because they got an upgrade, or performed such and such feat. The harsh reality is, none of them save maybe Grand Master are actually good characters.

I actually dont think thats the only thing that makes a decent character. If you look at my first post actually talked about their personalities as well. You are taking that post and forgetting everything else I said.

Juntai
Originally posted by Alfheim
I actually dont think thats the only thing that makes a decent character. If you look at my first post actually talked about their personalities as well. You are taking that post and forgetting everything else I said. You haven't actually posted much of anything, especially anything that goes against what I posted above.. besides complaining you feel they're abused as characters and quoting the sections from Marvunapp.
The only post where you said much about how you feel about the characters is when you started saying things like;

"So and so is cool because they fought him and her"

That doesn't make good characters at all.

And the reality is, while they have 'potential', that is no different than any other character who has ever appeared in a comic- but in practice, they aren't very good interesting and compelling characters outside of perhaps Grandmaster that would even make most readers take notice much less give a damn about reading them.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Juntai
You haven't actually posted much of anything, especially anything that goes against what I posted above.. besides complaining you feel they're abused as characters and quoting the sections from Marvunapp.

There were 3 posts where I indicated that personality was important as well you cant just ignore 3 posts and just focus on one.

Originally posted by Juntai

The only post where you said much about how you feel about the characters is when you started saying things like;

"So and so is cool because they fought him and her"

Er no there were 3 other posts which indicated that I thought personality was important, stop ignoring my other posts.

That list just didnt just refer to powers for example when I said they ruined Champion it was not just his powerset, this was further indicated by when llagrok said its not just his low showings that ruined his character, I would assume hes talking about personality as well. I also said they ruined his 'character' that does not just refer to powers.

I also refered to Gardeners association with Adam Warlock, this indirectly related to his personality ie why is a pacifist trying to destory the uinverse and I felt he took part in some interesting stories.

I also refered to Contemplator meeting Cap, thats not about his powers but taking part in mainstream MU and not just the cosmos.

I also talked about the appearnces of characters as well. How the character is drawn is important but not the only aspect.

So maybe you misunderstood but that list was not just about powers.


Originally posted by Juntai

And the reality is, while they have 'potential', that is no different than any other character who has ever appeared in a comic- but in practice, they aren't very good interesting and compelling characters outside of perhaps Grandmaster that would even make most readers take notice much less give a damn about reading them.

Thats a matter of opinion as Laminator said Possesor and Collector actually had good storylines. I dont have a problem with your opinion just dont be saying stuff I didnt say.

Juntai
Originally posted by Alfheim
There were 3 posts where I indicated that persopnality was important as well you cant just ignore 3 posts and just focus on one. That taking liberties.



Er no there were 3 other posts which indicated that I thought personality was important, stop ignoring my other posts.

That list just didnt just refer to powers for example when I said they ruined Champion it was not just his powerset, this was further indicated by when llagrok said its not just his low showings that ruined his character, I would assume hes talking about personality as well. I also said they ruined his 'character' that does not just refer to powers.

I also refered to Gardeners association with Adam Warlock, this indirectly related to his personality ie why is a pacifist trying to destory the uinverse and I felt he took part in some interesting stories.

I also refered to Contemplator meeting Cap, thats not about his powers but taking part in mainstream MU and not just the cosmos.

I also talked about the appearnces of characters as well. How the character is drawn is important but not the only aspect.

So maybe you misunderstood but that list was not just about powers.




Thats a matter of opinion as Laminator said Possesor and Collector actually had good storylines. I dont have a problem with your opinion just dont be saying stuff I didnt say. It's not a situation with me putting things in mouth - figuratively, since we're on the net - but rather how you came off by yourself. I call it as I see it.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Juntai
It's not a situation with me putting things in mouth - figuratively, since we're on the net - but rather how you came off by yourself. I call it as I see it. laughing


LOL you actually deleted part of my original post as I suspected your a troll and a torublemaker. Spot the difference.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah. sad



I disagree The Gardener is actually cool, he used to be an ally of Adam Warlock and hes taken on The Stranger, the fight was pretty cool.

Contemplator is cool, he has vast mental powers altered different timeleines and has met Captain America

Champion would be cool but they have ruined the CHARACTER.

Possessor is cool. I think I saw a scan if him fighting Thor and Hercules but im not sure if that happened, I think he fought Hercules and Valkyrie instead.

Collector has had an upgrade.

cant be assed to go thorugh the others but they could be cool but it depends on the writer.

What the **** was Mark thinking when he made the Juidactor he/she looks wack....does Mark work with DC alot?

You actually deleted the important part of my post just so you could start an argument. I have nothing more to say to you. As I said before you ignore the THREE other posts that were to do with personality and not powers. Anyway im done.

Juntai
Originally posted by Alfheim
laughing


LOL you actually deleted part of my original post as I suspected your a troll and a torublemaker. Spot the difference.



You actually deleted the important part of my post just so you could start an argument. I have nothing more to say to you. As I said before you ignore the THREE other posts that were to do with personality and not powers. Anyway im done. laughing

llagrok
Originally posted by Juntai
It was more to the fact he was saying the person is a good character, because they got an upgrade, or performed such and such feat. The harsh reality is, none of them save maybe Grand Master are actually good characters.

Hmm

They're not particularly original either, though I think some of them have/had a lot of potential. The Champion went from being absolutely incapable of killing to smashing a planet for teh lulz. Grand Master's showings and personality has been displayed pretty decent throughout the years, I'll agree with that.

Alfheim
Originally posted by llagrok
Hmm

They're not particularly original either, though I think some of them have/had a lot of potential. The Champion went from being absolutely incapable of killing to smashing a planet for teh lulz. Grand Master's showings and personality has been displayed pretty decent throughout the years, I'll agree with that.

Omigod I agree with that also. Anyway it seems that even on this forum there are a small number of people that could be considered "fans" or at least would like to see better writing. Hell even the author of my quote did not like how the Elders were being depicted.

Laminator_X
The Runner's original appearances in New Defenders are actually some of the richest character treatment an Elder's ever gotten. Moondragon's first great romance (unless you read between the lines with her and Hellcat wink ) seems to be a fairytale at first, but the Runner's vivacious charm was also his tragic flaw. He couldn't slow down long enough to do any more than be Peter Pan to Heather's Wendy.

SaintSmurph
Originally posted by Alfheim
laughing


LOL you actually deleted part of my original post as I suspected your a troll and a torublemaker. Spot the difference.



You actually deleted the important part of my post just so you could start an argument. I have nothing more to say to you. As I said before you ignore the THREE other posts that were to do with personality and not powers. Anyway im done. no expression

I was thinking the same thing as Juntai. You were able to underline three parts of your post (which were still irrelevant as to why they're not crap characters... ZOMG!1! he met Captain America!111!!), but everything else in the post was about their powersets or who they've fought, and how that makes them cool.

Lulz at that reasoning.

Also, this is old news to be bitching about. There's much more current and worthy disasters happening in comics right now.

Alfheim
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
no expression

I was thinking the same thing as Juntai. You were able to underline three parts of your post (which were still irrelevant as to why they're not crap characters... ZOMG!1! he met Captain America!111!!),


LOL thats not that the point. I dont care wether he thinks their crap characters thats a matter of opinion. He stated that I was more concerned with their powers than anything else.

Originally posted by Juntai
It was more to the fact he was saying the person is a good character, because they got an upgrade, or performed such and such feat. The harsh reality is, none of them save maybe Grand Master are actually good characters.

1. How can you say I am concerned with their powers when I have THREE posts that were concerned with their personality and not powers. Looking at one post is taking liberties.

2. You missed the point. The bits I underlined where to show that I was not just concened with their powers and there was an explantion to the post. The point I was making that they there involved in interesting storylines not that meet ing Captain America in itself makes you cool.

Wether he thinks they are crap characters is irrelevenat to me I am disputing the fact that I said that I think powers were the most important thing that make a character. I then showed part of the post which indicated this was not true then he deleted them. Thats just taking liberties and you as well missed the point. no expression

Originally posted by StylishSmurph

but everything else in the post was about their powersets or who they've fought, and how that makes them cool.

Lulz at that reasoning.


LOL thats the whole bloody point. The rest of the post was not about that and you're ignoring it. Do you see how illogical you are being?

Originally posted by StylishSmurph


Also, this is old news to be bitching about. There's much more current and worthy disasters happening in comics right now.

Yeah so? So I shouldnt start this thread up because you dont like it?

Juntai
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
no expression

I was thinking the same thing as Juntai. You were able to underline three parts of your post (which were still irrelevant as to why they're not crap characters... ZOMG!1! he met Captain America!111!!), but everything else in the post was about their powersets or who they've fought, and how that makes them cool.

Lulz at that reasoning.

Also, this is old news to be bitching about. There's much more current and worthy disasters happening in comics right now. Yep.
cool

Alfheim
Originally posted by Juntai
Yep.
cool

*sigh*

Soljer
Originally posted by SaintSmurph
no expression

I was thinking the same thing as Juntai. You were able to underline three parts of your post (which were still irrelevant as to why they're not crap characters... ZOMG!1! he met Captain America!111!!), but everything else in the post was about their powersets or who they've fought, and how that makes them cool.

Lulz at that reasoning.

Also, this is old news to be bitching about. There's much more current and worthy disasters happening in comics right now.

I love my smurph. smile.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.