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Vertigo's Michael from the Lucifer series. I assume most of you know who he is, if not you can check out the respect thread. Inspired by SpearofDestiny's thread, Michael hits the Gauntlet and fights one after another. Can Michael complete the Gauntlet? Michael is at full power by the way.

1. Dream of the Endless, Impierex Prime, Galactus, Mistress Death, DC Death, The Stranger, Love and Hate, Chaos and Order, and Tiamut the Dreaming Celestial- the front-line in stopping Michael from completing the Gauntlet.

2. White Phoenix of the Crowncan amputate a Timeline and Repair it within the WHR)count it as intermission if you wish

3. Parallax- erased all of time. Can Parallax find a way to stop Michael? Or does Michael dismantle him?

4. Abraxas with the Ultimate NullifierUN can erase and Remake the Multiverse;Abraxas can collapse a Universe just by coming near it,
can kill a being and all his counterparts in the Multiverse simultaneously)
Which one will be doing the nullifying?

5. Classic Mad Jim Jaspers 616-(more powerful than Merlyn, could only be defeated by a Plot Device - Fury)
Will Jaspers warp work on Michael? Or does Michael destroy him before he gets the chance?

6. Classic Anti-Monitor- Nearly destroyed DC.
He withstood an amped Spectre attack. Can he withstand Michael's power?

7. The 5th dimension- Mxy and his buddies team up to face the Demiurge.
Can theses imps overwhelm Michael? Or is Michael proof against the notion that he can be outnumbered?

8. Alien Entity- (folded the entire Omniverse to the point before its creation the Void, then recreated the Omniverse with Reed's mind literally from nothingness)
Who will be doing the recreating after this battle?

9. Ultimator- Destroyed Dimensions 6-9
Some claim that Ultimator cannot die. Does Michael prove that immortal is just a relevant term?

10. HOM Wanda: (completely restructured 616, subconsciously collapsed the Omniverse,consciously rebuilt the Omniverse from its collapse)
The massive powers collide. Which one will prevail?

11. Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet- Beat all cosmics and took Eternity's place as the new 616 Marvel Universe.
Only the Living Tribunal has been shown to be greater than the LT. Does Michael prove to be higher as well?

12. Mxy in World's Funnest- Destroyed everything but Bat-Mite.
But what one destroys, Michael can easily create. What will be the outcome?

13. Bloodlusted Spectre-An enraged Spectre plans the demise of Michael. Will he prevail?

14. The BeyonderS-(tiny fraction of their energy empowers CCUs)
Perhaps the most powerful civilization of entities . If Michael makes it this far, can these beings finally put him down?

15. Lucifer Morningstar- somehow Lucifer manipulated these beings and thus he is the reason Michael is running this Gauntlet. Which brother will prevail in this unbelievable clash of powers?

He should clear it, imo.

I was thinking the same, though I was wondering if all those battles would put him at too much of a disadvantage when he faces Lucifer.

If he's in God's graces, , he pretty much = God's power, right?

If that's the case, none of the others would be able to match him... imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
If he's in God's graces, , he pretty much = God's power, right?

If that's the case, none of the others would be able to match him... imo.
That's not quite true. He still has the Demiurgos Power even when he is not in God's graces. Yahweh just has to be present for him to be at full power.

I believe Michael would not be hurt as long as he doesn't let his guard up and attacks quickly. But with the powers he's up against, he's liable to get hurt at one point or another imo.

That's why I was wondering if the damage he possibly could received would be enough to put him at a disadvantage.

Your order is ****ed

Originally posted by Air Legend
That's not quite true. He still has the Demiurgos Power even when he is not in God's graces. Yahweh just has to be present for him to be at full power.

I believe Michael would not be hurt as long as he doesn't let his guard up and attacks quickly. But with the powers he's up against, he's liable to get hurt at one point or another imo.

That's why I was wondering if the damage he possibly could received would be enough to put him at a disadvantage. True.

Even then, I don't see him having trouble until around #9.... Just MO.

At nine, it would be like him fighting himself. The order is a bit off. But he will stalemate lucifer as everthing He throws at lucifer will be shaped by lucy as a weapon against him.

Get's to number 15 then stalemates Lucifer. Lucifer may be able to take a slight majority, due to the fact that he has more high-end feats. They're roughly equals in terms of power though, so it could go either way.

Originally posted by Galan007
True.

Even then, I don't see him having trouble until around #9.... Just MO.
Same here. Well, actually not until 10 because Lucifer (and others when he ordered the immortals out of his universe) have been shown to kill "immortals" and Michael is more powerful than Lucifer. Though taking out dimensions 6-9 is pretty impressive considering that all those dimensions are more powerful than the 5th.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
everthing He throws at lucifer will be shaped by lucy as a weapon against him.
That's not true. Even a depowered Michael who was relatively weaker than his depowered brother was able to hurt Lucifer (and he hurt him reluctantly at that).

Originally posted by Air Legend
That's not true. Even a depowered Michael who was relatively weaker than his depowered brother was able to hurt Lucifer (and he hurt him reluctantly at that).
And in this forum, We are talking about non jobbing, Non PIS. IF lucy can take the power of God and fashion it on a whim, then that means any other showing would be for the sake of story. Without the Will, One can't control the power. Look at Thanos with the Heart. Only he had the will, thus he controlled the power.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And in this forum, We are talking about non jobbing, Non PIS. IF lucy can take the power of God and fashion it on a whim, then that means any other showing would be for the sake of story.
That's what Lucifer was created to do.

Yaweh: My sweet savage, Samuel, to bring the light where I have told it to shine.

And if you're going to bring PIS into the game, then Lucifer creating his own universe has to be PIS since Lucifer has been hurt way--Lucifer even died-- more often than he has created his own universe.

Originally posted by Air Legend
That's what Lucifer was created to do.

Yaweh: My sweet savage, Samuel, to bring the light where I have told it to shine.

And if you're going to bring PIS into the game, then Lucifer creating his own universe has to be PIS since Lucifer has been hurt way--Lucifer even died-- more often than he has created his own universe.
One cannot Hurt or kill the will of God in any real consequence. He's an abstract of the highest order. Now that is PIS for the sake of a good story. And it was lucy that fashioned the sea of multiverses that were Yew's. Also Lucy fashioned his own Multiverse out of mikes power. Not a universe.

He slew Michael in an empty space outside of creation. The demiurgic power which flew out of Michael when he died was what allowed Lucy to shape his universe.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
One cannot Hurt or kill the will of God in any real consequence. He's an abstract of the highest order. Now that is PIS for the sake of a good story. And it was lucy that fashioned the sea of multiverses that were Yew's. Also Lucy fashioned his own Multiverse out of mikes power. Not a universe.
That is incorrect. The common misconception is that Lucifer is God's will made flesh. Lucifer's will power was given by God, Lucifer is not Yahweh's will made flesh. In other words God gave Lucifer his own will. Read the issue when the Titan's usurped God's power if you still don't believe me.

As for the multiverse thing that was handled here:
Originally posted by Air Legend

Are people here afraid to voice there opinions or something?
I mean there has to be a character here someone likes who they think can stop Michael...

Originally posted by Air Legend
Are people here afraid to voice there opinions or something?
I mean there has to be a character here someone likes who they think can stop Michael... Not afraid i just doubt any of them can beat him..

Originally posted by iceman24567
Not afraid i just doubt any of them can beat him..
Oh, that's cool. Then you can at least say he clears it.
Do you think adding the Living Tribunal to this list would make things more interesting?

Originally posted by Air Legend
Oh, that's cool. Then you can at least say he clears it.
Do you think adding the Living Tribunal to this list would make things more interesting? It might i think the Tribuals feats are on Michael level.

The reason I didn't is because I think the LT would win. I wanted to make a gauntlet where Michael could succeed or fail. IMO the LT would guarantee failure.

Originally posted by Air Legend
The reason I didn't is because I think the LT would win. I wanted to make a gauntlet where Michael could succeed or fail. IMO the LT would guarantee failure.

Didn't the LT stand up to the power of God in his reality and Fail? So why would he win against the power of God from another? Mikey also handily beat the Spectre and stated that he could out right destroy him. I don't think the LT would stand a chance, anymore than he did against the Heart of the Universe.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Didn't the LT stand up to the power of God in his reality and Fail? So why would he win against the power of God from another? Mikey also handily beat the Spectre and stated that he could out right destroy him. I don't think the LT would stand a chance, anymore than he did against the Heart of the Universe. Lt>>Spectre.

So Michael beating him is of no importance. The Lt could get the job done here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lt>>Spectre.

So Michael beating him is of no importance. The Lt could get the job done here.

LT would get ***** slapped back to Marvel..gauranteed

Originally posted by KMC_Drifter
LT would get ***** slapped back to Marvel..gauranteed Nah marvels cosmics and their abstracts are more defined and clearly more powerful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lt>>Spectre.

So Michael beating him is of no importance. The Lt could get the job done here.

Fail. Big fat lie from a big fat marvel biased poster. The Spectre has had the power to literally merge with God. The Spectre bitched the power of the UN, The IG, the cosmic cube, the spear of Destiny, etc, all combined. The LT couldn't stand up to the heart, so he wont' be able to stand up to Mikey who is equal to the heart.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah marvels cosmics and their abstracts are more defined and clearly more powerful.

LT needed help to beat Protege...when did Micheal need help in beating someone at that level?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The Spectre bitched the power of the UN, The IG, the cosmic cube, the spear of Destiny, etc, all combined. The LT couldn't stand up to the heart, so he wont' be able to stand up to Mikey who is equal to the heart.

Some of those items didn't even work. Also BS crossover.
Michael = To THOI, not really, speculation at best.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah marvels cosmics and their abstracts are more defined and clearly more powerful.

This just shows a level of bias that's beyond ridiculous.

Originally posted by batdude123
This just shows a level of bias that's beyond ridiculous. No dur he's like "Thanos is invincible because i love him"..

Originally posted by Inhuman
Some of those items didn't even work. Also BS crossover.
Michael = To THOI, not really, speculation at best.

It doesn't matter what you think of the cross over. It's canon. And other posters who try to invalidate the cross over with bullshit construed theories about what the marvel cosmics have to do with the DC cosmos when none of those theories are mentioned in said cross over won't change the fact that the story is canon. And It's not speculation that Mikey is the embodiment of the power of God. If the heart is indeed the power of toaa, then they are equal. Period. Speculation would be for biased posters.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It doesn't matter what you think of the cross over. It's canon. And other posters who try to invalidate the cross over with bullshit construed theories about what the marvel cosmics have to do with the DC cosmos when none of those theories are mentioned in said cross over won't change the fact that the story is canon. And It's not speculation that Mikey is the embodiment of the power of God. If the heart is indeed the power of toaa, then they are equal. Period. Speculation would be for biased posters.

Some of the items didnt even work. Makes the spectre's feat look less than it was.
So if its cannon to you.
Then Wolverine beats lobo? And the other fights that are determined by the "voters"? LOL. What silly crap.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Some of the items didnt even work. Makes the spectre's feat look less than it was.
So if its cannon to you.
Then Wolverine beats lobo? And the other fights that are determined by the "voters"? LOL. What silly crap.
Um, wrong cross over.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Um, wrong cross over.

Crossovers in general are crap. That was my point.
They are enjoyable to some degree though. I like them. But i dont consider their stories 100% canon.
But If you do then you have to consider every crossover canon. And for crossovers to be used in logical debates. Considering ALL the facts.
If thats the case then dont shun away ideas & feats in crossovers in future debates.
Not just use the ones that suit your argument.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Crossovers in general are crap. That was my point.
They are enjoyable to some degree though. I like them. But i dont consider their stories 100% canon.
But If you do then you have to consider every crossover canon. And for crossovers to be used in logical debates. Considering ALL the facts.
If thats the case then dont shun away ideas & feats in crossovers in future debates.
Not just use the ones that suit your argument.

No. JLA Avengers is canon becuz it's referenced elsewhere by both companies. All that other crap your talking about is just that.

Originally posted by KMC_Drifter
LT needed help to beat Protege...when did Micheal need help in beating someone at that level? Didnt Michael lose to a powerless being once.

Originally posted by batdude123
This just shows a level of bias that's beyond ridiculous. They are more well defined. Dc heavyweights arent as powerful. Look at Parallax and Anti Monitor now. The just dont stack up to marvels heavyweights. In the end in dc all you need is Superman and some help. In marvel you need much more.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Fail. Big fat lie from a big fat marvel biased poster. The Spectre has had the power to literally merge with God. The Spectre bitched the power of the UN, The IG, the cosmic cube, the spear of Destiny, etc, all combined. The LT couldn't stand up to the heart, so he wont' be able to stand up to Mikey who is equal to the heart. Michael isnt equal to the heart. What on panel feats makes you think so? The Spectre also got danced on by Black Adam and batkicked because he let Batman let off steam on him. What a damn joke.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They are more well defined. Dc heavyweights arent as powerful. Look at Parallax and Anti Monitor now. The just dont stack up to marvels heavyweights. In the end in dc all you need is Superman and some help. In marvel you need much more.

The Time Trapper
The Endless
Krona
Elaine
The Spectre
The Imps
The Ultimator
The Source
Entropy

To name a few beings who stack up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They are more well defined. Dc heavyweights arent as powerful. Look at Parallax and Anti Monitor now. The just dont stack up to marvels heavyweights. In the end in dc all you need is Superman and some help. In marvel you need much more.

Marvel comics have wet dreams when thinkin' about Superman being one of their characters....they would have him solo Abstract beings at whim...if Supes were in their comics.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The Time Trapper
The Endless
Krona
Elaine
The Spectre
The Imps
The Ultimator
The Source
Entropy

To name a few beings who stack up. Lt
Eternity
Scathan
Chaos
Order
Kronos
Hate
Love
Galactus
Abraxas
Protege
The heart
The ig
Beyonder
Celestials
Jaspers
Oblivion
Infinity
Mistress Death
True Beyonders


Oh yeah they dont stack up.

Again in dc all you need to win is Superman and some heroes.

Originally posted by KMC_Drifter
Marvel comics have wet dreams when thinkin' about Superman being one of their characters....they would have him solo Abstract beings at whim...if Supes were in their comics. Superman is a pile of shit and I like its funny that he takes away from other dc characters. It hurts the whole company. Marvel spreads it around while dc doesnt.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lt
Eternity
Scathan
Chaos
Order
Kronos
Hate
Love
Galactus
Abraxas
Protege
The heart
The ig
Beyonder
Celestials
Jaspers
Oblivion
Infinity
Mistress Death
True Beyonders


Oh yeah they dont stack up.

Again in dc all you need to win is Superman and some heroes.


GEB solos everyone in that list.

Originally posted by KMC_Drifter
GEB solos everyone in that list. Nah. And wasnt that vertigo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They are more well defined. Dc heavyweights arent as powerful. Look at Parallax and Anti Monitor now. The just dont stack up to marvels heavyweights. In the end in dc all you need is Superman and some help. In marvel you need much more.

There's more than Anti-Monitor and Parallax when it comes DC's cosmics.

Your statement is basically akin to "I like Marvel better than DC, ergo, I think the characters are much more powerful."

Hilarious.

Lt-Spectre
Eternity-Kismet
Scathan-Lucifer
Chaos-Lords of Chaos/mordru
Order-Lords of Order/nabu
Kronos-Chronus
Hate-Dream of the Endless
Love-Desire of The Endless
Galactus-Yugah Khan
Abraxas-Destruction of the Endless
Protege-Black Mary
The heart-Micheal
The ig-Batmite
Beyonder-Mr. Mxy
Celestials-The QUantums
Jaspers-Elaine
Oblivion-Entropy
Infinity-The Time trapper
Mistress Death-Death of the endless
True Beyonders-The Old Gods, the promethians, etc.

I could go on.


Your bias knows no bounds

Not entirely agreeing with this but it made me LOL

Originally posted by batdude123
There's more than Anti-Monitor and Parallax when it comes DC's cosmics.

Your statement is basically akin to "I like Marvel better than DC, ergo, I think the characters are much more powerful."

Hilarious. No it isnt I just threw out a few there. I have read the big events not all of them mind you but the basic premis is simple. Superman,Batman and the gang figure out a way to stop the threat. There threats arent as vast as marvel's imo. Take the annihilation wave story. It took Galactus to end this threat whereas they still signed a treaty. Annihilus' forces were that massive while in the Sinestro corps you had some earth type battle where the threat was dealt with and rather quickly.

Spiderman, Hulk, Logan and the gang could have ended annihilation 131

Originally posted by quanchi112
No it isnt I just threw out a few there. I have read the big events not all of them mind you but the basic premis is simple. Superman,Batman and the gang figure out a way to stop the threat. There threats arent as vast as marvel's imo. Take the annihilation wave story. It took Galactus to end this threat whereas they still signed a treaty. Annihilus' forces were that massive while in the Sinestro corps you had some earth type battle where the threat was dealt with and rather quickly.

easily the dumbest statement of 2008.
IT took the combined power of all of earth's heroes, the GL corps, the gaurdians, a galaxy destroying blast, AND SBP to end the Sin war. You are biased and I been saying it forever. I'm glad you proved me right.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Lt-Spectre
Eternity-Kismet
Scathan-Lucifer
Chaos-Lords of Chaos/mordru
Order-Lords of Order/nabu
Kronos-Chronus
Hate-Dream of the Endless
Love-Desire of The Endless
Galactus-Yugah Khan
Abraxas-Destruction of the Endless
Protege-Black Mary
The heart-Micheal
The ig-Batmite
Beyonder-Mr. Mxy
Celestials-The QUantums
Jaspers-Elaine
Oblivion-Entropy
Infinity-The Time trapper
Mistress Death-Death of the endless
True Beyonders-The Old Gods, the promethians, etc.

I could go on.


Your bias knows no bounds Lt would stomp Spectre.
Eternity and Kismet ok but what about Infinity the other side of that coin. Lucifer is from vertigo. Again Scathan has no one to even face and his power was shown to be possibly greater than the Lt's.

Chaos is someone who cant be easily absorbed like Mordru was in gds. Nabu could defeat Order. Chronus wasnt as impressive as you think and would lose here. He isnt absorbing pantheons. Do Dream and Desire actually get involved and actually battle? Galactus would crush Yuga Khan who only cut off the new gods from their power source but couldnt do this to big G. Protege was about as powerful as Lt and you bring Black Mary up. The heart would absorb Michael and he doesnt have the on panel feats for this. Batmite doesnt have the feats of the ig. I dont know who the Quantums are. Elaine is vertigo. The true beyonders are more powerful than the old gods. They died and there time passed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No it isnt I just threw out a few there. I have read the big events not all of them mind you but the basic premis is simple. Superman,Batman and the gang figure out a way to stop the threat. There threats arent as vast as marvel's imo. Take the annihilation wave story. It took Galactus to end this threat whereas they still signed a treaty. Annihilus' forces were that massive while in the Sinestro corps you had some earth type battle where the threat was dealt with and rather quickly.

Using Sinestro Corps War to determine the power of the DC cosmic hierarchy is asinine and laughable at best.

Right, you're not declaring that Marvel is > DC out of bias. haermm

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucifer is from vertigo.

Lucifer is a DC Comics character.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
easily the dumbest statement of 2008.
IT took the combined power of all of earth's heroes, the GL corps, the gaurdians, a galaxy destroying blast, AND SBP to end the Sin war. You are biased and I been saying it forever. I'm glad you proved me right. Yes but it was still so small scale that it ended up just being some earth battle where just a few cities were tarnished. It was quite a battle but you would think a battle for the multiverse would leave earth ravaged but instead all the cities were fine and everything was wrapped up at the end of the day with the bad guys crushed.

Originally posted by batdude123
Using Sinestro Corps War to determine the power of the DC cosmic hierarchy is asinine and laughable at best. I used that story but which one would you like to talk about. I am giving examples here so why dont you try and throw some out there.

Originally posted by batdude123
Using Sinestro Corps War to determine the power of the DC cosmic hierarchy is asinine and laughable at best.

Right, you're not declaring that Marvel is > DC out of bias. haermm



Lucifer is a DC Comics character. I thought Lucifer was a vertigo character.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lt would stomp Spectre.
Eternity and Kismet ok but what about Infinity the other side of that coin. Lucifer is from vertigo. Again Scathan has no one to even face and his power was shown to be possibly greater than the Lt's.

Chaos is someone who cant be easily absorbed like Mordru was in gds. Nabu could defeat Order. Chronus wasnt as impressive as you think and would lose here. He isnt absorbing pantheons. Do Dream and Desire actually get involved and actually battle? Galactus would crush Yuga Khan who only cut off the new gods from their power source but couldnt do this to big G. Protege was about as powerful as Lt and you bring Black Mary up. The heart would absorb Michael and he doesnt have the on panel feats for this. Batmite doesnt have the feats of the ig. I dont know who the Quantums are. Elaine is vertigo. The true beyonders are more powerful than the old gods. They died and there time passed.

Your whole assement is RETARDED. and you say the old gods time has passed but you bring up the heart of the U. Something not even canon. YOu bring up the Ig and it can't work in unison any more. You bring up The beyonder and he's just a cosmic cube. You make exscuses.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Your whole assement is RETARDED. and you say the old gods time has passed but you bring up the heart of the U. Something not even canon. YOu bring up the Ig and it can't work in unison any more. You bring up The beyonder and he's just a cosmic cube. You make exscuses. Debate respectfully my friend. Just because we dont agree theres no reason to call me retarded. The heart is canon its referenced in Thanos series. I bring this up because its timeless. The ig could work together if the Lt wanted it to duh. I dont make up excuses I just go over facts and how I see them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I used that story but which one would you like to talk about. I am giving examples here so why dont you try and throw some out there.

Any one's with The Endless, Elaine, Lucifer, Michael, Great Evil Beast, Imps, Sandman, etc.

Seriously, learn more about DC's cosmics before making such a bold claim, please.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I thought Lucifer was a vertigo character.

He's appeared in both.

Same guy though.

Originally posted by batdude123
Any one's with The Endless, Elaine, Lucifer, Michael, Great Evil Beast, Imps, etc.

Seriously, learn more about DC's cosmics before making such a bold claim, please.



He's appeared in both.

Same guy though. These are all vertigo stories whereas they dont interact and face the stiff competition that a dc villain faces. I have read a lot of dc.

Originally posted by quanchi112
These are all vertigo stories whereas they dont interact and face the stiff competition that a dc villain faces. I have read a lot of dc.

Those are all DC characters.

Originally posted by batdude123
Those are all DC characters. But they dont interact with dc is my point. Have any of these characters met Superman who is so pivtol to the dcu.

Originally posted by quanchi112
But they dont interact with dc is my point. Have any of these characters met Superman who is so pivtol to the dcu.

Yes.

But the characters don't interact often because he is an ant to them.

Originally posted by batdude123
Yes.

But the characters don't interact often because he is an ant to them. I thought Superman is very very important to the dcu.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I thought Superman is very very important to the dcu.

Are you trying to compare Superman to The Endless, Lucifer, Michael, The Word, The Spectre, Metatron?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I thought Superman is very very important to the dcu.

Well, yes, he is their flagship character. And apparently his existence is necessary for all of reality in DC.

Still though, having Superman integrated with those characters in a story is ridiculous if you think about it.

Originally posted by kevdude
Are you trying to compare Superman to The Endless, Lucifer, Michael, The Word, The Spectre, Metatron? Where did you get that from?

Originally posted by batdude123
Well, yes, he is their flagship character. And apparently his existence is necessary for all of reality in DC.

Still though, having Superman integrated with those characters in a story is ridiculous if you think about it. Half of the time Superman saving the day is ridiculous to me as well.

gets to 15 and stalemates LM

Stops at 11.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stops at 11. Of course he stops at your favorite character... He clears it.

Besides the fact that the order is wrong, he stops at Lucifer.

Even if he were fighting Lucifer first and both of them were fresh, Lucifer would still win.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Didn't the LT stand up to the power of God in his reality and Fail? So why would he win against the power of God from another? Mikey also handily beat the Spectre and stated that he could out right destroy him. I don't think the LT would stand a chance, anymore than he did against the Heart of the Universe.
Again nvr, you're taking the concept to literally. God bestowed Michael with the Demiurgos power, the word of fire that builds and breaks. Michael is not God's power manifested in flesh. God gave Michael and Lucifer their own power.

Originally posted by kevdude
gets to 15 and stalemates LM
He kicks Lucifer's ass.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Stops at 11.
Sounds like a battlezone match

Originally posted by iceman24567
Of course he stops at your favorite character... He clears it. Ok what kind of on panel feats does he have to support your claims here.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Besides the fact that the order is wrong, he stops at Lucifer.

Even if he were fighting Lucifer first and both of them were fresh, Lucifer would still win.

Why does he stop at him. Isnt Michael more powerful than him?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why does he stop at him. Isnt Michael more powerful than him?
I didn't see that because he's on my ignore list. Yes Michael is more powerful.

Do you accept the battlezone match?

Originally posted by Air Legend
I didn't see that because he's on my ignore list. Yes Michael is more powerful.

Do you accept the battlezone match? Against who?

Clears it.

As usually, no matter the subject, or company for that matter, you are wrong.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
As usually, no matter the subject, or company for that matter, you are wrong. How does Lucifer beat Michael in your opinion?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How does Lucifer beat Michael in your opinion?

Using his brains and power.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Against who?
Thanos IG vs Michael. You said he'd stop at 11.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Using his brains and power.
Michael has more power...

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
Michael has more power...

Michael isn't more powerfull than Lucifer.

Nor as smart.

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
Michael has more power...

And how do you think Lucifer was cast out of heaven in the first place?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stops at 11.
Fail.

*to own or not to own*

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
*to own or not to own*
OWN!!!!!!

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
OWN!!!!!!

In an interview, Mike Carey, the actual writer of the Lucifer series, states that Lucifer is the second most powerfull being in the whole creation :

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/LuciferM.jpg


Mike Carey : Obviously Lucifer is the second most powerfull being in the whole creation.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In an interview, Mike Carey, the actual writer of the Lucifer series points out that Lucifer is the second most powerfull being in the whole creation :

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/LuciferM.jpg


Mike Carey : Obviously Lucifer is the second most powerfull being in the whole creation.
I don't call that ownage...

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
I don't call that ownage...

So the actual writer of the series in which the 2 characters we are discussing exist stating that Lucifer is the 2nd most powerfull being in creation isn't enough ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So the actual writer of the series in which the 2 characters we are discussing exist stating that Lucifer is the 2nd most powerfull being in creation isn't enough ?
No, its not.

On panel evidence suggest that Michael is second only to the Presence.

On panel > interview.

Michael is only 2nd to Ice Cube......uhuh

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
No, its not.

On panel evidence suggest that Michael is second only to the Presence.

On panel > interview.

Tell me your joking

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
No, its not.

On panel evidence suggest that Michael is second only to the Presence.

On panel > interview.
NO. One can't have one without the other.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Tell me your joking
Says the guy who used an article clip to base his argument on...

Also fyi, I'm using other series as references as well.

Lucifer would rip Micheal apart, hes evil....powerful evil...you cant beat that kind of power, also i thought Lucifer had defeated Micheal before when he took the power of creation that came out of the guy and made his multiverse?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
NO. One can't have one without the other.
Says the guy who ranted about Jim Starlin being wrong.

Besides, it's funny how he didn't show the whole thing.

And Michael is the most most powerful being in creation, not second.

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
Says the guy who used an article clip to base his argument on...


So me using the actual writer's word is supposed to be wrong ?



What ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So me using the actual writer's word is supposed to wrong ?
I just reread the little clip.
The writer is right Lucifer is the second most powerful in creation...


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

What ?


Michael has appeared in other series...

I hope you do know that God was still in creation when that statement took place.





And so has Lucifer.

Your point ?

Well, I'm gone

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Using his brains and power. Why couldt Thanos do the same.

Originally posted by Estacado
Fail. I see you thought long and hard about this response.

Originally posted by Mr.Biscuits
The writer is right Lucifer is the second most powerful in creation...

With the Presence being the first? ermmnone

Originally posted by batdude123
With the Presence being the first? ermmnone
The Presence is above creation. ermmnone

And the Presence chose Michael as his second. Michael's has the birthright as the Presence's successor.

I'm with Erik. I believe that Lucifer can eek out a slight majority against Michael.

Originally posted by Air Legend
The Presence is above creation. ermmnone

Good point peaches

Originally posted by Thorion
I'm with Erik. I believe that Lucifer can eek out a slight majority against Michael.
Not when Michael is at full power.

Quanchi are you cowering in fear?
I asked you like 3 times if you'd accept a battlezone match.
You'd represent Thanos with IG and I'd represent Michael.
Do you accept?

Originally posted by Air Legend
Not when Michael is at full power.

You seem to know a lot about Michael, so I'll take your word for now. I personally, do not know much about the character outside of Lucifers' title. When both characters where severely handicapped, during the Wolf Beneath the Tree arc, Lucifer did actually beat him, though. Has Michael got any high end feats outside of Lucifer?

Originally posted by Air Legend
Quanchi are you cowering in fear?
I asked you like 3 times if you'd accept a battlezone match.
You'd represent Thanos with IG and I'd represent Michael.
Do you accept?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't one of the rules of the battlezone something along the lines of 'no taunting or goading another poster into a match'?

Lucifers the Devil, he would crush anyone other than God for sure

Originally posted by Soljer
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't one of the rules of the battlezone something along the lines of 'no taunting or goading another poster into a match'?
Yeah, sorry I didn't mean for it come out that way. It's just unlike quanchi to ignore a post.

so i read Lucifer 'the wolf storyline right at the end Michael cuts loose on a beserker Lucy and essentially = God when he accesses his powers to their fullest.

Michael has more restraint with his abilities. perhaps because he knows he's the most powerfull and there would be no-one to keep him in check if he went rogue.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Yeah, sorry I didn't mean for it come out that way. It's just unlike quanchi to ignore a post.

No worries - however, the best method of direct contact between posters is not to call them out in threads - rather, try a PM - you can be assured that he won't just happen to 'miss' it, and if he rejects your offer, he needn't do so publicly. .

Originally posted by Air Legend
Well here's probably his most impressive feat imo (besides him being the power to create the universes).
You can check the respect thread for all his feats, Mr. Slippyfist added the DC scans (outside of Lucifer) of Michael against the Spectre (borrowed from Mr. Biscuits.)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t474601.html

Here it is:

Nice respect thread. Interesting scans too. Lucys' got some pretty high end feats himself, though. All in all, they seem pretty evenly matched. I guess it comes down to preference, eh? I personally think it could go either way.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Quanchi are you cowering in fear?
I asked you like 3 times if you'd accept a battlezone match.
You'd represent Thanos with IG and I'd represent Michael.
Do you accept? Me cowher in fear hardly, its just i forgot about this and have been off or a bit. I wanted to do another battlezone without representing Thanos. If I accept it wont be any time soon. These battlezones are taxing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why couldt Thanos do the same.

Because he isn't on the same level when it comes to power, in comparison to Lucifer.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Because he isn't on the same level when it comes to power, in comparison to Lucifer. Lucy isnt more powerful than Michael. But according to you he can defeat him.

In terms of what ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucy isnt more powerful than Michael. But according to you he can defeat him.

He is at least as powerfull.

And he can.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
He is at least as powerfull.

And he can. So even though Michael is supposed to be the power while Lucy is the will it really doesnt matter. In the end Lucy is as powerful as him anyways according to you.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So even though Michael is supposed to be the power while Lucy is the will it really doesnt matter. In the end Lucy is as powerful as him anyways according to you.

Michael contains the demiurgic power which once released was shaped by Lucifer's will into a creation. That's why one is the 'will' while the other one is the 'power'. 'Power' and 'Will' mostly defines their roles, not necessarilly who is the most powerfull between the two of them.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Michael contains the demiurgic power which once released was shaped by Lucifer's will into a creation. That's why one is the 'will' while the other one is the 'power'. 'Power' and 'Will' mostly defines their roles, not necessarilly who is the most powerfull between the two of them. Yes lucy used his power to recreate a universe or whatever. Without his power lucy could not have achieved this.

but perhaps without Lucifers will, Micheal cannot achive it either?

as the saying goes, "where theres a will, theres a way", take Lucy out of it and your left with just the power to do it, just not the ability

Originally posted by Thorion
Nice respect thread. Interesting scans too. Lucys' got some pretty high end feats himself, though. All in all, they seem pretty evenly matched. I guess it comes down to preference, eh? I personally think it could go either way.
Thanks.

How so? What feats put a full power Lucifer on par with a full power Michael?

I have scans of Lucifer's will power failing when Lucifer was at full power. Not only that, Lucifer has been depicted on panel to be powerless in certain realms, and he was cast down to hell when he was at full power.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Thanks.

How so? What feats put a full power Lucifer on par with a full power Michael?

I have scans of Lucifer's will power failing when Lucifer was at full power. Not only that, Lucifer has been depicted on panel to be powerless in certain realms, and he was cast down to hell when he was at full power.

Taking a multiverse-destroying/creating blast with ease. Mind posting them?

Actually, Vertigo is not in the DC mainstream continuity.
Even so YHWH, Vertigo's version of the Presence, is not supreme and it's from YHWH's power Michael gained his own.
I'd say Jim Jaspers would stop him, after all Michael's body contains the power of one Multiverse (as one Multiverse is destroyed and recreated as he dies) while Jaspers manipulate the Omniverse with ease.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Actually, it was just a creation blast since it was outside of creation (the void) and the hype of him taking the creation blast with ease is getting old because that was what God created Lucifer for, to shape the light. If God made Lucifer incapable of withstanding Michael's power, creation would have never been formed in the first place.
Here are the scans:



Now just because Lucifer was created to withstand the creation blast, doesn't mean he can't be affected by Michael's power. When Michael forcefully uses his power to cause damage, Lucifer can and will be hurt by it.
This is a depowered, broken wing Michael hurting a functioning-wings, depowered Lucifer:


http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4317/scan0029xj7.th.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9927/scan0030yy9.th.jpg

If Michael can hurt Lucifer while being noticeably weaker (broken wings), he can definitely invoke catastrophic damage to Lucifer when at full power.

So again what feats does Lucifer have that put him on par with Michael? I'm pretty sure I can show you more low-end moments of Lucifer than feats that put him on par with Michael.

Thanks for clearing that up, but that was all I had
I've got another question, too. What was Gabriel's role in creation? I'm pretty sure that I once heard something about Michael creating Lucifer shaping then Gabriel cooling down what was shaped..

Originally posted by Astner
Actually, Vertigo is not in the DC mainstream continuity.
Even so YHWH, Vertigo's version of the Presence, is not supreme and it's from YHWH's power Michael gained his own.
I'd say Jim Jaspers would stop him, after all Michael's body contains the power of one Multiverse (as one Multiverse is destroyed and recreated as he dies) while Jaspers manipulate the Omniverse with ease.

Michael's body contains not the power of one Multiverse it contains Gods Power!! With Gods power anything can be created as Lucifer shaped it into a Universe then seems to have shaped the Universe into a Multiverse, making his Creation just like his Fathers. It has been stated many times if Michael dies everything will die unless its a part of God.

Originally posted by kevdude
Michael's body contains not the power of one Multiverse it contains Gods Power!!
When he died he released powers that Lucifer shaped into a universe/multiverse. If it was the power of a omnipotent being it would have whiped away the entire omniverse so that nothing was left.
Unless you consider that feat to be impossible for a omnipotent being.


If not everything is a part of God, then he's not omnipresent, hence not omnipotent.

Air Legend, you should add Destiny of the endless in there as well. Because it's debatable if he's more powerful than Michael.

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Air Legend, you should add Destiny of the endless in there as well. Because it's debatable if he's more powerful than Michael.
Both Lucifer and Michael are bond to the book of destiny (the thing Destiny carries around linked to a chain)
If he would be with the other endless Michael would be stopped at #1

Originally posted by Astner
When he died he released powers that Lucifer shaped into a universe/multiverse. If it was the power of a omnipotent being it would have whiped away the entire omniverse so that nothing was left.
Unless you consider that feat to be impossible for a omnipotent being.


If not everything is a part of God, then he's not omnipresent, hence not omnipotent.

That is why Michael had to be taken to The Void. If he was left in creation and Lucifer killed him there the power would have overwhelmed everything.

Using the Lucifer vs Michael fight to prove a point isn't really reccomanded. Lucifer was already weakened by God leaving the throne, hurt by the journey to the tree, aswell as the fact that he was affected by Fenris. Both of them were weakened so this fight is irrelevant.

We have Lucifer being stated as the second most powerfull being after God by the writer of the series.

We have Sandman saying the same thing.

We also have direct comparison in regards to Lucifer and Michael's power when Lucifer effortsley resists the power that was expelled from Michael's death.



http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/LuciferMichaelGabriel.jpg

It is debatable if Michael is as strong as Lucifer, but what we do know is that he isn't stronger.

Destiny stronger than Lucifer or Michael ? Not even close.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Using the Lucifer vs Michael fight to prove a point isn't really reccomanded. Lucifer was already weakened by God leaving the throne, hurt by the journey to the tree, aswell as the fact that he was affected by Fenris. Both of them were weakened so this fight is irrelevant.

Learn how to spell and I already proved my point, but I'm not going to waste my time explaining it all over with you again, since you are a troll/basher.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
We have Lucifer being stated as the second most powerfull being after God by the writer of the series.

Even the writer acknowledges Michael as the most powerful being in creation, seeing how God was depicted to be over creation (he holds the universe in his hands, and gave up his omniscience for randomness to happen and left creation). Not only that, a plethora of on panel evidence supports Michael being the most powerful being in creation, along with the Presence acknowledging Michael is power epitomized and Michael has the birthright as his successor.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
We have Sandman saying the same thing.
That was before the writers even thought about making the Lucifer series, so this is irrelevant. Plus Dream said "perhaps," clearly showing his uncertainty.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
We also have direct comparison in regards to Lucifer and Michael's power when Lucifer effortsley resists the power that was expelled from Michael's death.
God created Lucifer to shape the light; of course Lucifer is going to be able to withstand it. But as on panel evidence shows, when Michael forcefully uses his power, he will invoke damage upon Lucifer.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/LuciferMichaelGabriel.jpg

It is debatable if Michael is as strong as Lucifer, but what we do know is that he isn't stronger.
Is this DC? Because in the Lucifer series, Gabriel was important in the creation of the Silver City. I left that volume at home because I'm back in school again, so I can't give the scans.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Destiny stronger than Lucifer or Michael ? Not even close.
Destiny is like God's omniscience...but I agree, Lucifer and Michael are more powerful

ADVICE: Besides your terrible spelling habits, learn how to quote someone correctly...if you are intelligent enough to learn how.

Thorion, sorry I can't give you the scans since I left the volume at home.

Astner, I will respond to you as soon as I find the time, I just had to clear up this shit.

Clears it imo.

Reported, but only after finishing showings your other 'counters' wrong.



God was depicted as holding creation in his hands only after he left it.

When the statement was made about Lucifer being the second most powerfull being in creation, God hadn't left creation yet.

Are you sure you've read the book ?



I already explained why Michael is called the 'power' while Lucifer is called the 'will' to Quanchi. 'Power' and 'Will' define their roles.



So because this came before the Lucifer series, it means that we must ignore it ? Good logic.



Since Lucifer was made to withstand it, then you just proved my point.

And the instance when Michael affected Lucifer with his power, when they fought, was when Lucifer was already weakened by God leaving his trone, by the trip aswell as being affected by Fenris. Michael was also injured. So this instance doesn't really have any relevance to how a fight between the both of them would go when they are fresh.



It's from the Lucifer series.

Lulz.

I ask again, are you sure you've read the series ?



Good thing you didn't disagree, otherwise I'd have to show you wrong on this point too.



Me taking advices from you ? Heh .. that's quite funny.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Reported, but only after finishing showings your other 'counters' wrong.
Want me to pull up some of your posts?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
God was depicted as holding creation in his hands only after he left it.
Actually, that was when he returned to creation and was asking whether creation should be saved or destroyed.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
When the statement was made about Lucifer being the second most powerfull being in creation, God hadn't left creation yet.
You're basing your entire argument on a clip, which is hilarious in itself, but I have already proved how God is above creation. And on panel facts and showings are greater than your clip which you didn't even present in its entirety. Not that the clip disputes the fact of Michael being the most powerful being in creation.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Are you sure you've read the book ?
Trying to bash aren't you?
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

This confirms it.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I already explained why Michael is called the 'power' while Lucifer is called the 'will' to Quanchi. 'Power' and 'Will' define their roles.
Yes and that notion was dismissed. God chose Michael as his second.
God: Michael Demiurgos spark that spans forever, ocean of power with no shore. Lucifer's will power has been out-powered on panel, Lucifer is powerless in certain realms, was killed, and was cast down to hell, despite your claims of him being the most powerful being besides God.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So because this came before the Lucifer series, it means that we must ignore it ? Good logic.
I'll highlight the important parts, since you lack the reading comprehension skills to understand my statement the first time:
That was before the writers even thought about making the Lucifer series (the spin-off series wasn't even imagined at the time), so this is irrelevant. Plus Dream said "perhaps," clearly showing his uncertainty.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Since Lucifer was made to withstand it, then you just prove my point.
Not at all.
Michael wasn't forcefully using his energy to kill Lucifer. Though it's clever how you ignored that part of the argument.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
And the instance when Michael affected Lucifer with his power, when they fought, was when Lucifer was already weakened by God leaving his trone, by the trip aswell as being affected by Fenris. Michael was also injured. So this instance doesn't really have any relevance to how a fight between the both of them would go when they are fresh.

First of all that is a bad showing on Lucifer's part as he was mind-raped.
Secondly, a weaker Michael hurt a stronger Lucifer and Michael reluctantly did it at that.
Also, Lucifer at full power was out-powered by the veiletty. Michael, who contains God's power, most certainly would out-power Lucifer.
Lastly, what happened in the war in heaven when Lucifer was at full power?
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
It's from the Lucifer series.
Lulz.
I ask again, are you sure you've read the series ?
Really? What issue and page number? If you're wrong about this, you know this will just prove that you are a liar.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Good thing you didn't disagree, otherwise I'd have to show you wrong on this point too.
You haven't proved me wrong yet.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Me taking advices from you ? Heh .. that's quite funny.
Says the man who is a terrible speller and can't quote properly.

Destiny used Michael and Lucifer to save the creations, since there are laws he has to abide by, also told Lucifer his Multiverse/Creation was a prison compared to his Fathers, really pissed him off! Respect Destiny

Originally posted by kevdude
Destiny used Michael and Lucifer to save the creations, since there are laws he has to abide by, also told Lucifer his Multiverse/Creation was a prison compared to his Fathers, really pissed him off! Respect Destiny
Lucifer created a universe from Michael's power as shown throughout the entire series. In the one-shot Nirvana which is separate from the Lucifer series and holds no weight on the official series, Lucifer claims to have made a multiverse. Destiny looks badass, I'll give him that

No need, since we aren't talking about them. We are talking about you calling me a basher and a troll.



He returned to creation ? No, he didn't.

And nice try in avoiding you getting shown wrong.



Point is that you said that God is over creation because he held Creation in his hands. But this only happened after he left it, and the statement regarding Lucifer being the second being in creation was made before he left it, when God was still in creation.





Basing an argument on the actual writer is hilarous ? lulz.

You proved that God is above creation ? No you didn't.

On panel-showings ? What on-panel showings depicting Michael as being stronger than Lucifer do you have ?



With telling you that you haven't read the series in it's entirely, which you didn't, like I just proved ?





Nice job leaving the context out.

Lucifer's will has been outpowered on panel ? Example ?

Killed ? Certainly not by being outpowered. It was his own power that killed him.

Powerless in certain realms ? Is this relevant in any way in trying to prove that Michael > Lucifer in power ? No.

Cast down to hell ? He was offered hell by God, not beaten and thrown there.

Again, which one of those disputes the fact that he isn't the most powerfull after God ?

This grasping at straws of yours is becoming repeative.



This is gold.

So because the Lucifer series wasn't in progress yet, it means that every statement that happens before it is nullified ?

At least it's funny debating with you



You missed the part where both of them were weakened thus it's irrelevant ?

Or the part where Lucifer resisted Michael's power literally exploding into a new big bang without much effort.



Mind-rape ? Depends on your definition of it. It was actually the fact that he drank the blood, allowing Fenris to control him.

A weaker Michael hurt a stronger Lucifer ? Can you prove that Michael was weaker than Lucifer ? No, you can't. And like I said, this fight is irrelevant since neither of them were at their best.

Lucifer wasn't overpowered by anyone when he was at full power through the series.

What happened in heaven when Lucifer was at full power ? God came down and told him he will let him rule hell.

You should have known this if you read the series .



Lucifer #75.

hysterical

I should probably stop this discussion now.



Denial.



This is coming from the guy who doesn't have a clue about the series he's read, and also disputes the fact that some scans aren't from the series ?

Originally posted by Air Legend
Lucifer created a universe from Michael's power as shown throughout the entire series. In the one-shot Nirvana which is separate from the Lucifer series and holds no weight on the official series, Lucifer claims to have made a multiverse. Destiny looks badass, I'll give him that It was a one-shot, but it was part of the mythology, and written by the same writer as well.

Superman > Imperiex than if we go by what the writers says outside the comic....

Originally posted by 123KID
Superman > Imperiex than if we go by what the writers says outside the comic.... Are you saying that in reference to another post?

yes
sorry for not making it clear

Seeing as how only Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey have actually written the 'true' Lucifer Morningstar, with Neil Gaiman's Sandman telling the he is perhaps the most powerfull being after his father and Mike Carey flat out stating that Lucifer is the 2nd most powerfull being in creation with Yahweh not leaving creation yet, I'd say the writer's opinion does count in this case.

And you're lucky Juntai quoted you, otherwise I woudn't have seen your post, being on ignore and all.