Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I want to do it. But I may need some help. Specifically, computer programming.

I have some basic programming knowledge, and what I wish to attempt is basic enough that any programming language could easily accommodate it. I'm planning on writing the code myself (probably something basic like Pascal) but it's the format of the program that's vexing me.

...

Now some quantum info:

A quantum superposition is when there is precisely (precisely) 50% chance of two different outcomes occurring, and no incentive for one or the other to occur. Until the system is compromised or it is observed (which would compromise it) it is literally in both states. Anyone familiar with Schrodinger's cat will recognize this scenario.

And no, it's not that we don't know what it is until we observe it, but it's definitely one or the other. It literally acts as both simultaneously until the quantum position collapses. The act of observation "decides" which of the two it is. Studies have been able to show particles acting in two different ways until the quantum position collapses, so this is observed, not simply theorized.

...

So my program. Here's the scenario:

You enter two numbers, and the computer generates either a 4 or a 6. It has to be one of these two numbers, and can be nothing else. Which one it is is determined by your input. Say you enter 5 and 9. It take the mean (average) and whichever number is closest is displayed. In this case the mean is 7, so the computer would display a 6.

But say you enter a 4 and a 6, or two 5's, or -12 and 22. The mean is 5. But the computer has to output a 4 or a 6.

But any program I have conceived would output some sort of error message. I can't figure out a way that it by-passes the indecision without altering the 50/50 nature of the test. Maybe it's that my programming is rusty, or I'm assuming an error message (I have yet to actually write the code for it), but I'll doubtless have some hoops to jump through.

...

Thoughts? Help? I want this to be my "cat," and it's tantalizingly close.

^wont work. programs depend on electrical impulses and those are predictable systems. randomness is computers is not truly random because the computer claims that it uses algorythms which never REPEAT the same choice/list twice, and sumthing that doesnt repeat is by definition not random. hehe, srry, i dun know much about computers at all, but heres my two cents.

also, id like to say sumthing on the schrodinger cat and both states existing simultaneously, but i desist from starting an off topic discussion which might end up tiring.

I am not sure if I understood what you are doing, but if you are trying to use an algorithm to simulate true randomness(like quantum uncertainty), then know that it is impossible.


Any programs that work based on randomness only use an "illusory" randomness. They are not truly aleatory. Randomization in computation work based on a factor which is completely predictable and determined but you don't know what it is so you can't predict the result, but you could if you knew.


For example, you can make randomness by using the milliseconds on the computer clock by assigning each possible result that you want to randomize to one number, and when you click a button the computer read the millisecond number value and returns the result corresponding to that number. Like a roulette, and thats not true randomness.


Any randomization in computation must be based on a event which is completely predictable. Its impossible to create an algorithm which creates true randomness, that is against logic itself.


True randomness does only exist in quantum mechanics and you can't reduce quantum uncertainty to logic algorithms. Quantum uncertainty is an entirely new phenomena and thats why it is so important.


You can't create quantum superposition in normal computers so don't try it anymore. The only way is to use a computer which works based on something truly random, like quantum mechanics. That would be a quantum computer.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I want to do it. But I may need some help. Specifically, computer programming.

I have some basic programming knowledge, and what I wish to attempt is basic enough that any programming language could easily accommodate it. I'm planning on writing the code myself (probably something basic like Pascal) but it's the format of the program that's vexing me.

...

Now some quantum info:

A quantum superposition is when there is precisely (precisely) 50% chance of two different outcomes occurring, and no incentive for one or the other to occur. Until the system is compromised or it is observed (which would compromise it) it is literally in both states. Anyone familiar with Schrodinger's cat will recognize this scenario.

And no, it's not that we don't know what it is until we observe it, but it's definitely one or the other. It literally acts as both simultaneously until the quantum position collapses. The act of observation "decides" which of the two it is. Studies have been able to show particles acting in two different ways until the quantum position collapses, so this is observed, not simply theorized.

...

So my program. Here's the scenario:

You enter two numbers, and the computer generates either a 4 or a 6. It has to be one of these two numbers, and can be nothing else. Which one it is is determined by your input. Say you enter 5 and 9. It take the mean (average) and whichever number is closest is displayed. In this case the mean is 7, so the computer would display a 6.

But say you enter a 4 and a 6, or two 5's, or -12 and 22. The mean is 5. But the computer has to output a 4 or a 6.

But any program I have conceived would output some sort of error message. I can't figure out a way that it by-passes the indecision without altering the 50/50 nature of the test. Maybe it's that my programming is rusty, or I'm assuming an error message (I have yet to actually write the code for it), but I'll doubtless have some hoops to jump through.

...

Thoughts? Help? I want this to be my "cat," and it's tantalizingly close.

It will not work because we have already compromise it by thinking about making it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It will not work because we have already compromise it by thinking about making it. H-how?

Originally posted by Bardock42
H-how?

W-what?

Note: Superposition really assumes you believe some of what I would call the "mystical" interpretations of quantum mechanics. A large number of physicists (which I am not ) see quantum mechanics as little more than an advanced ruler, basically a tool for measuring extremely small items, which is still imperfect. Imho, something like Schrodinger's cat is an example of the limit of this tool at this point to make perfect predictions and does not exemplify some "strangeness" of quantum physics...

Also, I don't think computer code or calculation has the ability to be put into a quantum state. You would need an electron that could either have spin up or down depending on the output, and then do the numbers...

I also think it would be limited because a situation of something being a 5 in this isn't an either/or (ie, it isn't a photon-slit experiment where the light goes one way or the other) but instead it is a both, meaning that "5" satisfies the conditions for both 4 and 6 outputs.

I'd also be really interested in the findings from studies showing superposition, any sources?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
W-what? How is it compromised by that?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How is it compromised by that?

What is the "that" you are talking about?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is the "that" you are talking about? I don't know. I guess whatever you were talking about when you said "It will not work" "compromise it" and "making it".

My that means your it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't know. I guess whatever you were talking about when you said "It will not work" "compromise it" and "making it".

My that means your it.

OK, thank you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK, thank you. Going to explain now?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Going to explain now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition

I read that. It doesn't answer how it is already compromised by thinking about making it. Explain that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I read that. It doesn't answer how it is already compromised by thinking about making it. Explain that.

No, it's measure, not think.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, it's measure, not think.

Explain to me what you meant when you said "It will not work because we have already compromise it by thinking about making it.", please.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I want to do it. But I may need some help. Specifically, computer programming.

I have some basic programming knowledge, and what I wish to attempt is basic enough that any programming language could easily accommodate it. I'm planning on writing the code myself (probably something basic like Pascal) but it's the format of the program that's vexing me.

...

Now some quantum info:

A quantum superposition is when there is precisely (precisely) 50% chance of two different outcomes occurring, and no incentive for one or the other to occur. Until the system is compromised or it is observed (which would compromise it) it is literally in both states. Anyone familiar with Schrodinger's cat will recognize this scenario.

And no, it's not that we don't know what it is until we observe it, but it's definitely one or the other. It literally acts as both simultaneously until the quantum position collapses. The act of observation "decides" which of the two it is. Studies have been able to show particles acting in two different ways until the quantum position collapses, so this is observed, not simply theorized.

...

So my program. Here's the scenario:

You enter two numbers, and the computer generates either a 4 or a 6. It has to be one of these two numbers, and can be nothing else. Which one it is is determined by your input. Say you enter 5 and 9. It take the mean (average) and whichever number is closest is displayed. In this case the mean is 7, so the computer would display a 6.

But say you enter a 4 and a 6, or two 5's, or -12 and 22. The mean is 5. But the computer has to output a 4 or a 6.

But any program I have conceived would output some sort of error message. I can't figure out a way that it by-passes the indecision without altering the 50/50 nature of the test. Maybe it's that my programming is rusty, or I'm assuming an error message (I have yet to actually write the code for it), but I'll doubtless have some hoops to jump through.

...

Thoughts? Help? I want this to be my "cat," and it's tantalizingly close.

You need a random number generator. You can embed a random number generator into programming all sorts of ways. You should write up the program for something like

if x*=4 or 6 then start programed named (insert program name and or script for locating, starting, and plugging in the numbers in the scenario.)

I know that is waaay off from any program language but I tried to be generic with how I defined it. I am not a programmer and I hate programming.

I don't understand why you have to first calculate the mean value of two different numbers.

here is a random number generator that is similar to the program you described.
http://www.mdani.demon.co.uk/para/random.htm

*x= the mean that equaled 4 or 6.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I want to do it. But I may need some help. Specifically, computer programming.

I have some basic programming knowledge, and what I wish to attempt is basic enough that any programming language could easily accommodate it. I'm planning on writing the code myself (probably something basic like Pascal) but it's the format of the program that's vexing me.

...

Now some quantum info:

A quantum superposition is when there is precisely (precisely) 50% chance of two different outcomes occurring, and no incentive for one or the other to occur. Until the system is compromised or it is observed (which would compromise it) it is literally in both states. Anyone familiar with Schrodinger's cat will recognize this scenario.

And no, it's not that we don't know what it is until we observe it, but it's definitely one or the other. It literally acts as both simultaneously until the quantum position collapses. The act of observation "decides" which of the two it is. Studies have been able to show particles acting in two different ways until the quantum position collapses, so this is observed, not simply theorized.

...

So my program. Here's the scenario:

You enter two numbers, and the computer generates either a 4 or a 6. It has to be one of these two numbers, and can be nothing else. Which one it is is determined by your input. Say you enter 5 and 9. It take the mean (average) and whichever number is closest is displayed. In this case the mean is 7, so the computer would display a 6.

But say you enter a 4 and a 6, or two 5's, or -12 and 22. The mean is 5. But the computer has to output a 4 or a 6.

But any program I have conceived would output some sort of error message. I can't figure out a way that it by-passes the indecision without altering the 50/50 nature of the test. Maybe it's that my programming is rusty, or I'm assuming an error message (I have yet to actually write the code for it), but I'll doubtless have some hoops to jump through.

...

Thoughts? Help? I want this to be my "cat," and it's tantalizingly close.
Wouldn't this be easier? Flip a quarter into a box and don't look. angel_not

Originally posted by Bardock42
Explain to me what you meant when you said "It will not work because we have already compromise it by thinking about making it.", please.

I just did...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I want to do it. But I may need some help. Specifically, computer programming.

I have some basic programming knowledge, and what I wish to attempt is basic enough that any programming language could easily accommodate it. I'm planning on writing the code myself (probably something basic like Pascal) but it's the format of the program that's vexing me.

...

Now some quantum info:

A quantum superposition is when there is precisely (precisely) 50% chance of two different outcomes occurring, and no incentive for one or the other to occur. Until the system is compromised or it is observed (which would compromise it) it is literally in both states. Anyone familiar with Schrodinger's cat will recognize this scenario.

And no, it's not that we don't know what it is until we observe it, but it's definitely one or the other. It literally acts as both simultaneously until the quantum position collapses. The act of observation "decides" which of the two it is. Studies have been able to show particles acting in two different ways until the quantum position collapses, so this is observed, not simply theorized.

...

So my program. Here's the scenario:

You enter two numbers, and the computer generates either a 4 or a 6. It has to be one of these two numbers, and can be nothing else. Which one it is is determined by your input. Say you enter 5 and 9. It take the mean (average) and whichever number is closest is displayed. In this case the mean is 7, so the computer would display a 6.

But say you enter a 4 and a 6, or two 5's, or -12 and 22. The mean is 5. But the computer has to output a 4 or a 6.

But any program I have conceived would output some sort of error message. I can't figure out a way that it by-passes the indecision without altering the 50/50 nature of the test. Maybe it's that my programming is rusty, or I'm assuming an error message (I have yet to actually write the code for it), but I'll doubtless have some hoops to jump through.

...

Thoughts? Help? I want this to be my "cat," and it's tantalizingly close. Ok if I get what you are saying is that you want the computer to random generate numbers based on the mean, but when the mean falls precisely inbetween the two outcomes you want it to pick a certain number randomly as its desired choice? And you want this to happen with out any bias from yourself.


Not gonna happen even the Random Function in and of itself isn't truly random. In computer programing everything comes back to two possible outcomes being used to code for something else by creating sequences of Ons and Offs.

Therefore any program you right that chooses one or the other will always be decided by yourself or the sequence leadin up to it.


Or let me put it this way.

You would to right it like this:

If X becomes Exact Number Inbetween 4 and 6

Then Random(4, 6)

Outcome equals decision of random sequence.

There can never be a none decision made left to the computer.


Now what you can do is except that it may simulate what you want on some high probability level. Essentially a simulated coin flip if you will. It's not exactly what you want but if something is illogically capable of being understood then the computer can not help you do it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I just did... Where? Can you point me to the post.

Originally posted by Newjak
Ok if I get what you are saying is that you want the computer to random generate numbers based on the mean, but when the mean falls precisely inbetween the two outcomes you want it to pick a certain number randomly as its desired choice? And you want this to happen with out any bias from yourself.


Not gonna happen even the Random Function in and of itself isn't truly random. In computer programing everything comes back to two possible outcomes being used to code for something else by creating sequences of Ons and Offs.

Therefore any program you right that chooses one or the other will always be decided by yourself or the sequence leadin up to it.


Or let me put it this way.

You would to right it like this:

If X becomes Exact Number Inbetween 4 and 6

Then Random(4, 6)

Outcome equals decision of random sequence.

There can never be a none decision made left to the computer.


Now what you can do is except that it may simulate what you want on some high probability level. Essentially a simulated coin flip if you will. It's not exactly what you want but if something is illogically capable of being understood then the computer can not help you do it. Bottom of the page

Originally posted by Bardock42
Where? Can you point me to the post.

We are way off topic. If you need anything more from me, please pm me.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I want to do it. But I may need some help. Specifically, computer programming.

I have some basic programming knowledge, and what I wish to attempt is basic enough that any programming language could easily accommodate it. I'm planning on writing the code myself (probably something basic like Pascal) but it's the format of the program that's vexing me.

...

Now some quantum info:

A quantum superposition is when there is precisely (precisely) 50% chance of two different outcomes occurring, and no incentive for one or the other to occur. Until the system is compromised or it is observed (which would compromise it) it is literally in both states. Anyone familiar with Schrodinger's cat will recognize this scenario.

And no, it's not that we don't know what it is until we observe it, but it's definitely one or the other. It literally acts as both simultaneously until the quantum position collapses. The act of observation "decides" which of the two it is. Studies have been able to show particles acting in two different ways until the quantum position collapses, so this is observed, not simply theorized.

...

So my program. Here's the scenario:

You enter two numbers, and the computer generates either a 4 or a 6. It has to be one of these two numbers, and can be nothing else. Which one it is is determined by your input. Say you enter 5 and 9. It take the mean (average) and whichever number is closest is displayed. In this case the mean is 7, so the computer would display a 6.

But say you enter a 4 and a 6, or two 5's, or -12 and 22. The mean is 5. But the computer has to output a 4 or a 6.

But any program I have conceived would output some sort of error message. I can't figure out a way that it by-passes the indecision without altering the 50/50 nature of the test. Maybe it's that my programming is rusty, or I'm assuming an error message (I have yet to actually write the code for it), but I'll doubtless have some hoops to jump through.

...

Thoughts? Help? I want this to be my "cat," and it's tantalizingly close.

1) Why not let it say "5" and declare that 5 is both 4 and 6?

2) Why are you even doing something like this?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We are way off topic. If you need anything more from me, please pm me. We aren't. Explain to me why thinking about making the experiment would compromise it, please.

Originally posted by inimalist
Note: Superposition really assumes you believe some of what I would call the "mystical" interpretations of quantum mechanics. A large number of physicists (which I am not ) see quantum mechanics as little more than an advanced ruler, basically a tool for measuring extremely small items, which is still imperfect. Imho, something like Schrodinger's cat is an example of the limit of this tool at this point to make perfect predictions and does not exemplify some "strangeness" of quantum physics...

blah, I looked it up, I'm totally wrong on this, sorry Digi

EDIT (For more relevance): Thinking is highly unlikely to affect any quantum state... Observation in quantum physics means something radically different than it does in other fields, even of physics.

Originally posted by inimalist
blah, I looked it up, I'm totally wrong on this, sorry Digi



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
2) Why are you even doing something like this?

Why the heck not? Intellectual stimulation, perhaps? Or probably just curiosity.

...

Anyway, enough objections to the validity of the test have been given, and it may not be possible to generate a quantum state in a computer. Mostly this was just a cool idea that I had...the odds of it actually coming to fruition, I realized from the start, were rather small.

But there were a few attempts at formulating program ideas for making it happen. I'll leaf through them and see if anything has promise.

And thanks to all, btw. I'm not feeling around in the dark, exactly, but it should be clear I'm nowhere near comfortable with all this stuff.

Anyway Digi this is a rough outline of what your program would have to look like.



Name

{
variable1, variable2, variable3, input1, input2

\\Ask for two inputs
input1 = Prompt user for input1

input2 = Prompt user for input2

variable1 = input1
variable2 = input2

variable3 = (variable1 + varaible2)/2

if (variable3 < 5)
{
Display 4
}
else if(variable3 > 5)
{
Display 6
}
else if(variable3 == 5)
}
Display Random(4,6)
}

}


No of course this is just a rough outline. You would still have to prompt for the input of the user. Also you need to find out which programming language your using's particular Syntax matches the above steps.

Originally posted by Bardock42
We aren't. Explain to me why thinking about making the experiment would compromise it, please.

Frankly I agree. Obviously there is no obligation, shak, but I'd appreciate it if you would clarify what the heck you meant.

The way it is with computers, digi, no matter how clever you are, it will never reach a point where, even for the briefest of brief moments, both outputs exist. It's not possible in computing, as far as I can possibly see it.

That's why flipping a quarter into a box is better.

Originally posted by Mindship
That's why flipping a quarter into a box is better.

But you wouldn't want to look at the quarter, correct?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you wouldn't want to look at the quarter, correct?

If you ever wanted information about it's quantum wavefunction you would have to. It would just cease to be in superposition (which it never was IMO because everything in the universe interacts in one way or another so technically everything is being "observed"

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you ever wanted information about it's quantum wavefunction you would have to. It would just cease to be in superposition (which it never was IMO because everything in the universe interacts in one way or another so technically everything is being "observed"

I agree.

Originally posted by Mindship
That's why flipping a quarter into a box is better.

But so much less cool.



Anyway, thanks guys. And thanks newjak...that's about what I was thinking too. Maybe sometime I'll write the code for it and see what happens.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But so much less cool.



Anyway, thanks guys. And thanks newjak...that's about what I was thinking too. Maybe sometime I'll write the code for it and see what happens. I may write it just for fun

Originally posted by Newjak
I may write it just for fun

I was thinking that maybe after you input the numbers, you could have 1 keystroke where it does the calculation and creates the variable (4 or 6) but doesn't "show" it on screen. The second keystroke then displays it. That was my "quantum moment," but like others have said it probably wouldn't exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you wouldn't want to look at the quarter, correct? Aye, lad. Flip it into a box, the next room; hell, I guess you could just flip it with your eyes closed (as long as you're alone).

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But so much less cool. qft

Originally posted by Mindship
Aye, lad. Flip it into a box, the next room; hell, I guess you could just flip it with your eyes closed (as long as you're alone).

qft

Use your Tarot Cards.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I was thinking that maybe after you input the numbers, you could have 1 keystroke where it does the calculation and creates the variable (4 or 6) but doesn't "show" it on screen. The second keystroke then displays it. That was my "quantum moment," but like others have said it probably wouldn't exist. All you have to do is simply store the output into Variables. So that you don't actually see it.

Then create a command to call it up, when you want to.


But yeah it will never exist in a computer because a computer deals with off or on. Nothing of an Alpha State.

http://xkcd.com/45/

Lulz

As much as that sounds interesting, I do not think that a computer could do it. However, things do happened that none of us can explain, so it could happen.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
http://xkcd.com/45/

Lulz

reposting.

Originally posted by Cornlady
As much as that sounds interesting, I do not think that a computer could do it. However, things do happened that none of us can explain, so it could happen.

Thanks for the interest, but this was already debunked fairly thoroughly. I got excited and ignored how fundamentally unstable a quantum position is once created, and also how rare they are in the first place.

actually, it IS possible in a way. if sumhow you cud isolate the choice of the answer to one or the other in such a way that a single electron's movement at sizes where quantum behaviour becomes significant, is determinant to whether your program will produce one number or the other, than you cud theoretically have a true probability based system, of course, doing that might be nearly infinitely impossible with your level of knowledge{or even the best in the business} and without photonic computing. plus, you will never know it, because your continuum conciousness will always just see one outcome and not branch off into two. this is basically a more complicated exemplification of the schrodinger cat. where events happening at a microscopic/quantum level can have direct consequesnces on macroscopic events which are significant to us. lol, good luck with it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if sumhow you cud isolate the choice of the answer to one or the other in such a way that a single electron's movement at sizes where quantum behaviour becomes significant, is determinant to whether your program will produce one number or the other,

That's my lifetime ambition.

^is it really?

mine is to gather together my currently nightmarish life lol. shudnt a lifetime ambition be more like happiness or sumthing?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^is it really?

mine is to gather together my currently nightmarish life lol. shudnt a lifetime ambition be more like happiness or sumthing?

I don't see any difference...

(JK)

guahaha