Scion/Theory Kain v.s. Sargeras

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Sol Valentine
Who wins?

Darth Extecute
He aint getting Sargeras soul.. that's for sure

Lady Fox
If what I have heard is correct, Scion Kain can never die and since there is no known way to defeat Sargeras, this is an eternal showdown.

Sargeras can live for an eternity in age and Kain keeps being reborn.

Burning thought
Theory kain is harsh against Sargerus, this is almost cruel, if it was just normal scion kain then what lady says above is correct

however i think eventually kain would ulitmatley win due to his evolution, even if it took billions of years to evolve to a level that would destroy Sargerus easily

Lady Fox
Sargeras evolves too, you know.

Burning thought
does he? didnt know he evolved? when?

Lady Fox
He has expanded at multiple occasions. He evolved in power during his time fighting dakrness. He evolved by fighting the demons, learning their dark arts. After fighting Kain for a long period of time, he would learn what Kain knows so well.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
He has expanded at multiple occasions. He evolved in power during his time fighting dakrness. He evolved by fighting the demons, learning their dark arts. After fighting Kain for a long period of time, he would learn what Kain knows so well.

oh i see, learning

what i meant by Kain evolving is his constant genetic evolution, kain evolves faster than usual, every 100 or so years kain would evolve, and gain not only physical features for example wings which he is prophesised to gain, but also dark gifts, which are vampiric powers a vampre gets, more and more of as they get older, so if billions of years passed, kain may easily if every 100 years he becomes more powerful become greater than Sargerus eventually

he would eventually split planets with his hands, move faster, gain completly diffrent powers, god only knows what powers he would gain after billions of years of evolution, becoming more evolved after every 100 years

Lady Fox
And where can I find a source of information that states that Kain can even expand to world busting level?

I assume that you got a source saying that there is no limit of his evolution. Maybe somewhere in the game it was said that he can limitlessly expand.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
And where can I find a source of information that states that Kain can even expand to world busting level?

I assume that you got a source saying that there is no limit of his evolution. Maybe somewhere in the game it was said that he can limitlessly expand.

why would there be a limit? there is no limit to evolution......beings just conotinually evolve, not even in the real world is there a limit to evolution.....so why would there be in a fictional world, why would world busting levels be beyond kain? if he can evolve every hundred years or so, this would not be a problem for him as the years past....

we know kain continually evolves, we know evolution technically does not really stop, only in the real world, creatures take a good few millions of years to evolve, kain takes less than a thousand

kain would not genetically stop evolving technically, its logical that he would carry on evolving like all creatures

Lady Fox
There may not be a limit to evulotion, but for all we know there can be a limit to vampires. Kain is a balance force, not a destruction force. Scion is a balance prophecy blabla, not one that is said to one day destroy the world.

Simply because it is fiction, it does not instantly mean it is limitless. You see Mickey Mouse evolve, but he would never become a world buster. Spyro the Dragon is evolvind, but he will never become a world buster.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
There may not be a limit to evulotion, but for all we know there can be a limit to vampires. Kain is a balance force, not a destruction force. Scion is a balance prophecy blabla, not one that is said to one day destroy the world.

Simply because it is fiction, it does not instantly mean it is limitless. You see Mickey Mouse evolve, but he would never become a world buster. Spyro the Dragon is evolvind, but he will never become a world buster.


a limit to vampires? but why would there be? the only diffrence with kain is he evolves quickly, in hundreds of years not millions/billions, genetically and with dark gifts, Kain is the guardian of balance, the balance is to make sure there is a flow of magic within the world keeping it alive, nothing to do with him not gainging power overall, it does not effect his genetic structure, it just keeps him from dieing, but being a balance guardian would not stop his evolution otherwise he would not get stronger and more destructive abilities through his dark gifts

If in real world evolution has no limit, then in fiction, there should not be a limit unless theres a special rule in the fiction, theres no reason to belive kain has a limit on his evolution, nothing is stated or hinted at as such.
but genetically, if Micky or spiro evolved every 100 years, after billions of years, they could likely become a planet buster, kain becomes more and more powerful, gaining greater dark vampiric gifts with his age, theres nothing that states a limit and no reason to think there is one, nor for mickey or spyro if they could evolve as such

kain would gain many more destructive things, not just genetically to be able to destroy worlds physically due to muscular and bodily genetics, but he has been in touch with all these diffrent powers, time...energy, nature, the way evolution seems to work is if a creature is in contact or is in something, their bodies would evolve to make them more adapt in that area, for example amphibius creatures used to be able to come on land but some of them in ancient times supposedly just developed fins and gills and took to the seas, or vice versa, sea creatures to amphibian

Lady Fox
Even though I do not think he will ever evolve into a world busting being, I will drop that for now.

We can not really assume that he will grow that powerful and therefore we can not base an argument on it. We know NOTHING about how he will be in a thousand years.
We can only imagine, therefore saying that he will one day will be beyond world busting strength should be considered an unstable argument and should not be permitted.

We know that Sargeras too evolve and who knows, maybe one day he becomes good again and his sword becomes whole. He maybe puts it together and becomes an all-wise warrior that he once was. Kain becomes outsmarted a hundred thousand times over and Sargeras finds a way to defeat him. He evolves to such a level that he learns to manipulate the forces of the universe and can simply undo the planet which Kain resides on.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
Even though I do not think he will ever evolve into a world busting being, I will drop that for now.

We can not really assume that he will grow that powerful and therefore we can not base an argument on it. We know NOTHING about how he will be in a thousand years.
We can only imagine, therefore saying that he will one day will be beyond world busting strength should be considered an unstable argument and should not be permitted.

We know that Sargeras too evolve and who knows, maybe one day he becomes good again and his sword becomes whole. He maybe puts it together and becomes an all-wise warrior that he once was. Kain becomes outsmarted a hundred thousand times over and Sargeras finds a way to defeat him. He evolves to such a level that he learns to manipulate the forces of the universe and can simply undo the planet which Kain resides on.

"shrug"

we can assume, because its logical, its logical if someone keeps becoming more powerful, eventually they will become incredibly powerful even if it took millenia, this is a constant, although its true we dont actually know what he will be like, we know he evolves incredibly quickly, we know they gain diffrent powers when he evolves so theres nothing but nothing to think he will not become any level at all, he could eventually overcome anything in billions of years of evolution, he may even master Sargerus' powers and gain even more power than sargerus ever imagined if Sargerus is using them to attack kain, kains body after a few thousand years of it perhaps less could become through evolution immune and gain power from it

your taking a diffrent spin, Sargerus does not genetically evolve like kain, what your talking about are actions, things he may do, unfortunatley if this a neutral battleground then he wont have access to things in Warcraft lore like the other piece of the sword, why would Sargerus outsmart kain over and over, kains evolution is more likely to overcome sargerus, kains mind would evolve. These are assumptions without logic assuming he can manip the forces of the universe, kain could very well become that level eventualyl because we know for fact he evolves extremely quickly gaining more and more power....Sargerus does not through genetics or magic evolve passively, he usually learns and gains power from artifiacts like he wants the well of eternity for

but regardless, this is theory kain by Sols rules.....theory kain would annhilate Sargerus, he would simply delete Sargerus from time

Furion
Sargeras grabs Kain and confines him to the farthest corner of the Twisting Nether. If Kain were to evolve to Planet busting however he could win.

Lady Fox
Theory Kain? So not Kain from the Legacy of Kain game?

Furion
Prove Kain has power over all time in everyplace ever.

Lady Fox
He can not prove it, because Kain has never simply 'deleted' anyone from time. I know not too much about Kain, but I know he has not done that.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Furion
Sargeras grabs Kain and confines him to the farthest corner of the Twisting Nether. If Kain were to evolve to Planet busting however he could win.

h8 silly comments liek this, how is Sargerus going to grab someone who is A: faster and B: with the capability to escape through many means from a grab

Originally posted by Lady Fox
Theory Kain? So not Kain from the Legacy of Kain game?


same kain, only with the Theory of him involved

Originally posted by Lady Fox
He can not prove it, because Kain has never simply 'deleted' anyone from time. I know not too much about Kain, but I know he has not done that.

kain has not done it, but this is Theory kain, Kain in Theory has control over all the concepts of the pillars now, he has all the emblems of the concepts, that means he has power over the concept of time, how will he not be able to kick sargerus out of time completly?

Lady Fox
How will he?

Burning thought
he has control over the concept of time now....he can do what he likes with time basically....so why would he not kick Sargerus out? or use a combination of the dimension and time reavers to simply make sargerus lost in both dimension and time in a diffrent verse....theory kain has many ways to defeat sargerus, or he could mind rape him, blast him to pieces with his own energies, is there a sun in this verse their fighting in? if so kain with his power over the concept of energy itself would launch the sun straight down Sargerus throat...kain could just freeze Sargerus solid in time...thus is the power of Theory kain

Lady Fox
I will not debate against a character that is not an actual character stick out tongue

Burning thought
well i didnt put the theory in this thread, Sol did stick out tongue

he is a character, only in a normal kain thread i wouldnt bring this theory into it, altho it may be viable, it is both unfair and not exactley debatable against

Furion
Prove Kain has power over time beyond Nosgoth.

Darth Extecute
Theory Sargeras cant die..

Burning thought
Originally posted by Furion
Prove Kain has power over time beyond Nosgoth.


.....that doesnt make any sense whatsoever

Furion
i'm saying Kain may not be able to access those time powerz beyond Nosgoth due to the pillars being there. I don't think Kain has been anywhere else besides Nosgoth (Dimensions don't count since they are technically still in Nosgoth.)

Burning thought
Originally posted by Furion
i'm saying Kain may not be able to access those time powerz beyond Nosgoth due to the pillars being there. I don't think Kain has been anywhere else besides Nosgoth (Dimensions don't count since they are technically still in Nosgoth.)

not really, their diffrent dimensions.....so not really part of Nosgoth at all, their like realities attached to Nosgoth

the pillars have nothing to do with it, when kain is fighting in the Oracles chamber and the demons when he awakes, by that time...the pillars have already broken, yet his powers remain because he is like a conduit of the pillars power, at the same time as having the emblems of the pillars to give him power, so he doesnt need to real pillars

Utrigita
Prove instead that Kains time abilities would triumph Sargares if I remember correctly Nozdormu was given his power over time by the Titans...

Wandering Flame
Originally posted by Furion
Prove Kain has power over time beyond Nosgoth. Originally posted by Mr Dude
Language is genetic.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
Prove instead that Kains time abilities would triumph Sargares if I remember correctly Nozdormu was given his power over time by the Titans...

because Nozmordu was given power by them does not mean that same power would not be affected by them and more correctly, his power came from Aman'thul the ruler of the parthanon and most powerful of the titans, but that does not me he or any other titan would be immune or it would be less effective against them because the likelyness as it is in many civalisations and races is that they use a specific power because they belive its powerful against eachother, humans use weapons powerful against eachother, Sargerus having resistence to time is a greater thing to prove and is more logical to prove imo because the power of time is used by many things in fiction yet those things are not always immune to their own powers

EvilAngel
Mind Control is a shadow spell.

Sargeras has almost unfathomable magical powers

Who can guess what i'm going to say next?

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Mind Control is a shadow spell.

Sargeras has almost unfathomable magical powers

Who can guess what i'm going to say next?


mind control for Sargerus may be a shadow spell but why would it have to be for kain?

Kain has a grand scale of magical powers, sargerus after a infnite magic source that kain already is basically for being the balance of magic itself

Theory kain would overrule most other beings who would try and go against one of his concepts, because he has power over the very concept itself. if he had control over just a spell it would be diffrent but he would have control over the very concept of the mind, limitless posbilities when you control the concepts of things that he gets from the pillars

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
because Nozmordu was given power by them does not mean that same power would not be affected by them and more correctly, his power came from Aman'thul the ruler of the parthanon and most powerful of the titans, but that does not me he or any other titan would be immune or it would be less effective against them because the likelyness as it is in many civalisations and races is that they use a specific power because they belive its powerful against eachother, humans use weapons powerful against eachother, Sargerus having resistence to time is a greater thing to prove and is more logical to prove imo because the power of time is used by many things in fiction yet those things are not always immune to their own powers

In case you forgot Aman'Thul and Sargares are brothers and until Sargares death they where roughly equals in power, check the Handbook they are roughly equals smile

I think it is a fair assumption to make that Aman'Thul wouldn't have given the power of time to Nozmordu if he didn't knew that Nozmordu's powers would have little to no effect on them, also imo it shows that the titans are also capable of manipulating time, maybe not as much as Aman'Thul but certainly to that extent where such a attack wouldn't have a great affect on them and certainly not on there greatest Champion Sargares...

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
In case you forgot Aman'Thul and Sargares are brothers and until Sargares death they where roughly equals in power, check the Handbook they are roughly equals smile

I think it is a fair assumption to make that Aman'Thul wouldn't have given the power of time to Nozmordu if he didn't knew that Nozmordu's powers would have little to now effect on them, also imo it shows that the titans are also capable of manipulating time, maybe not as much as Aman'Thul but certainly to that extent where such a attack wouldn't have a great affect on them and certainly not on there greatest Champion Sargares...


being equels in power does not mean they have the same powers, all the titans seem to have a specification, Norgannon for example has over magic, the others have all kinds of diffrent powers, unlesss hes shown to use it, i think it would be a far assumption to suppose just because a being is equel in power, they have the "same" powers wink

i dont think he would of given Nosmordu any power at all if he mistrusted him, but regardless he only gave the dragon a tiny portion of his power. Ime not sure, as my argument i said before, just because Aman'Thul can doesnt mean all the others can, even those liek Sargerus on the same power level, they have diffrent powers.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
being equels in power does not mean they have the same powers, all the titans seem to have a specification, Norgannon for example has over magic, the others have all kinds of diffrent powers, unlesss hes shown to use it, i think it would be a far assumption to suppose just because a being is equel in power, they have the "same" powers wink

it is "aspects" comrade each are given there specific area to caretake most likely the one they are most skilled in, and I find it unlikely that the Titans would bestow gifts on other creatures that would be capable of killing Titans do you???

i dont think he would of given Nosmordu any power at all if he mistrusted him, but regardless he only gave the dragon a tiny portion of his power.

It wasn't my point that he didn't trusted him, I asked you if you think that Aman'Thul would give a ability to destroy a titan to another being??? You hit the nail a tiny portion of his power over time, nothing says thats that is his only power, perhaps the most dominant but certainly not his only power.

Ime not sure, as my argument i said before, just because Aman'Thul can doesnt mean all the others can, even those liek Sargerus on the same power level, they have diffrent powers.

Perhaps ore perhaps the others isn't as skilled in the area as Aman'Thul is, but resistent to time and capable of manipulating time Yes, would it be most likely that the greatest Warrior of the Titan would either have a high Command over time ore a near incrediable resistance to time manipulation against him.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
it is "aspects" comrade each are given there specific area to caretake most likely the one they are most skilled in, and I find it unlikely that the Titans would bestow gifts on other creatures that would be capable of killing Titans do you???



It wasn't my point that he didn't trusted him, I asked you if you think that Aman'Thul would give a ability to destroy a titan to another being??? You hit the nail a tiny portion of his power over time, nothing says thats that is his only power, perhaps the most dominant but certainly not his only power.



Perhaps ore perhaps the others isn't as skilled in the area as Aman'Thul is, but resistent to time and capable of manipulating time Yes, would it be most likely that the greatest Warrior of the Titan would either have a high Command over time ore a near incrediable resistance to time manipulation against him.

well as i said before, its unlikely he would bestow something on a creature he didnt trust, i dont think any of the high powered Titans are in any theat from Nozmordu, he is merely running the time streams of Azeroth, all their powers are connnected to Azeroth if i remember correctly, nothing seems to make Nozmordu be able to control time in a unviersal scale

destroy a titan, i dont think any of them would destroy a titan with their powers, dont forget the others are protected by Aman'Thul anyway, but as i said above i dont think Nozmordu can reach the titans, their not threatened imo by he, and remember its sitll only a tiny portion of Aman'thul power, ime sure all the other titans would have powers that could destroy Nozmordu in a heartbeat. Noz time powers are not really dangerous, he seems to just travel through time taking out wizards who do the same

but why woudl they be resistent or capable of manipulating it, time is a very strange power, i dont think all of them could do it, and resistence to time is difficult to imagine, how can you be resistent to time itself? ime not sure any being other than the Titans have time powers so i doubt the Champion would need it, its common sense that if Sargerus had time powers, he would of frozen Azeroth completly and done what he wanted to do if he has incredible powers over it, resistence is unkown, since time is a difficult thing to combat

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Burning thought
mind control for Sargerus may be a shadow spell but why would it have to be for kain?

Kain has a grand scale of magical powers, sargerus after a infnite magic source that kain already is basically for being the balance of magic itself

Theory kain would overrule most other beings who would try and go against one of his concepts, because he has power over the very concept itself. if he had control over just a spell it would be diffrent but he would have control over the very concept of the mind, limitless posbilities when you control the concepts of things that he gets from the pillars

He doubt he has control over the concept of dark power. Though even if he does, that'd be a weakness, as Sargeras would use it to turn Kain into a finger puppet.

You're mistaking Kains limitess supply of magical energy for force. The Force level of Sargeras's magic is literally earth shattering. What's to stop Sargeras liquifying Kain in the same was Archimonde crushed a dragon, or Turning kain into a mere minion for his legion.

If Sephiroth is roughly equal to Kain, Kil'jaeden would be overkill. Jumping right into Sargeras is really a silly thing to do.

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
He doubt he has control over the concept of dark power. Though even if he does, that'd be a weakness, as Sargeras would use it to turn Kain into a finger puppet.

You're mistaking Kains limitess supply of magical energy for force. The Force level of Sargeras's magic is literally earth shattering. What's to stop Sargeras liquifying Kain in the same was Archimonde crushed a dragon, or Turning kain into a mere minion for his legion.

If Sephiroth is roughly equal to Kain, Kil'jaeden would be overkill. Jumping right into Sargeras is really a silly thing to do.

his dark power is not a concept, its a reaver attribute that only lets him go invisible, there is no evil in kain since his purifcaton so Sargerus is arleady at a weaknpoint in fighting someone who has no evil

liquidfying? apprently he just made it explode or something, even their paramount spells of Eredar can be dispelled easily by a dispel field, and world shattering will not worry kain, this is theory kain who has control over the energy concept, he could literally launch the suns combined heat a thousand times over into Sargerus since he controls energy in an unlimited amounts, he now has control in theory over the very concept

Sephiroth equel to kain? who said that?

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Burning thought
his dark power is not a concept, its a reaver attribute that only lets him go invisible, there is no evil in kain since his purifcaton so Sargerus is arleady at a weaknpoint in fighting someone who has no evil

liquidfying? apprently he just made it explode or something, even their paramount spells of Eredar can be dispelled easily by a dispel field, and world shattering will not worry kain, this is theory kain who has control over the energy concept, he could literally launch the suns combined heat a thousand times over into Sargerus since he controls energy in an unlimited amounts, he now has control in theory over the very concept

Sephiroth equel to kain? who said that?

How is that a disadvantage exactly?

He crushed it in midair. Sorry... how do you know this?

Energy is the same as magic in kains world? not in the Warcraft verse erm

Sun is fire, Only immortal attacks can hurt Sargeras, try again

Furion
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Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
How is that a disadvantage exactly?

He crushed it in midair. Sorry... how do you know this?

Energy is the same as magic in kains world? not in the Warcraft verse erm

Sun is fire, Only immortal attacks can hurt Sargeras, try again

because the Dark titan has power over corrupted and evil foes when they have darkness in them apprently, as you just said, his dark powers are better against dark beings, Kain would have this advantage over Sargerus

lots of people have said such, crushed...exactley, not liquified then is it....

no, i mistyped, does it matter? unlmiited magic kain has

kain could easily beat Sargerus by putting him in another dimension or as i said before locking off his timeline or destorying it completly, or he could simply rip away Sargerus' spirit and send it off into the twisting nether for a win

the sun thing was an example of kain having greater power than Sargerus, if crushing a planet is what Sargerus does

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
well as i said before, its unlikely he would bestow something on a creature he didnt trust, i dont think any of the high powered Titans are in any theat from Nozmordu, he is merely running the time streams of Azeroth, all their powers are connnected to Azeroth if i remember correctly, nothing seems to make Nozmordu be able to control time in a unviersal scale

I will ask the question again since you isn't answering it, it is a yes ore no question Burning Thought. Would Ama'Thul bestow the ability to kill a titan unto another being??? And he couldn't be sure that Nozmordu wouldn't turn against the Titans see what happened to Deathwing.

destroy a titan, i dont think any of them would destroy a titan with their powers, dont forget the others are protected by Aman'Thul anyway, but as i said above i dont think Nozmordu can reach the titans, their not threatened imo by he, and remember its sitll only a tiny portion of Aman'thul power, ime sure all the other titans would have powers that could destroy Nozmordu in a heartbeat. Noz time powers are not really dangerous, he seems to just travel through time taking out wizards who do the same

Thanks Nozmordues powers is his ability to control time, The same ability that you now say wouldn't have effect then I fail to see how exactly kains time attack as you claim would have any effect against Sargares...

but why woudl they be resistant or capable of manipulating it, time is a very strange power, i dont think all of them could do it, and resistence to time is difficult to imagine, how can you be resistant to time itself? ime not sure any being other than the Titans have time powers so i doubt the Champion would need it, its common sense that if Sargerus had time powers, he would of frozen Azeroth completly and done what he wanted to do if he has incredible powers over it, resistence is unkown, since time is a difficult thing to combat

It is and still Aman'Thul is commanding it just like Nozdormu is, a being far below a titan with control over time and still he isn't capable of killing a Titan even based on that he has time manipulating Abilities, and time actually isn't such a difficult aspect to master, isn't that was the Wizards are constantly doing in WoW, the Slow speed, Slowing time around the Target. And a Immortal is resistant to time itself, Kains resist it in some ways. And you don't find it likely that Sargares would have abilities to either command time ore Resist time even though he is there Champion of the Race, I find it very likely that he has. Who knows what he encountered during that time, which may have been millinia, that he fought Daemons from the twisted Nether. And no he wouldn't that isn't in his Character to do so, he wants to see the native races die screaming fighting for there life's against a vastly superior Foe, it's the same question can be asked about Aman'Thul if but a fraction of his power is given to Nozmordu, and we know what that guy can do, Then why didn't he simply freeze time when the Titans battled the Old Gods? Simple it isn't in there Character and it would be extremely boring, but do they have the ability to manipulate ore resist time imo yes.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
liquidfying? apprently he just made it explode or something, even their paramount spells of Eredar can be dispelled easily by a dispel field, and world shattering will not worry kain, this is theory kain who has control over the energy concept, he could literally launch the suns combined heat a thousand times over into Sargerus since he controls energy in an unlimited amounts, he now has control in theory over the very concept

He ripped the scales from the body of the dragon with telekinese. It is true that sometimes a dispel field is all that takes ore sometimes it requires vastly more, How many lairs of protection didn't protect Dalaran and what good it did them against the Paramount Spell From Archimonde. The ways to stop a Paramount spell may be simple in some scenarios and extremely difficult in other scenarios. Again the Dalaran spell is a excellent Example maybe all it toke was to break the runes before Archimonde finished them but then you would have to worry about Archimonde and dispel Magic doesn't exactly fall within Kains list of abilities does it???

Also I find it fair to assume the more powerful the Eredar is the more difficult it is to counter the spell.

Should I mention the Paramount Spell that Archimonde was about to use on the World Tree, whats stopping Sargares from draining that energy???

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
I will ask the question again since you are not answering it, it is a yes ore no question Burning Thought. Would Ama'Thul bestow the ability to kill a titan unto another being??? And he couldn't be sure that Nozmordu wouldn't turn against the Titans see what happened to Deathwing.



Thanks Nozmordues powers is his ability to control time, The same ability that you now say wouldn't have effect then I fail to see how exactly kains time attack as you claim would have any effect against Sargares...



It is and still Aman'Thul is commanding it just like Nozdormu is, a being far below a titan with control over time and still he isn't capable of killing a Titan even based on that he has time manipulating Abilities, and time actually isn't such a difficult aspect to master, isn't that was the Wizards are constantly doing in WoW, the Slow speed, Slowing time around the Target. And a Immortal is resistant to time itself, Kains resist it in some ways. And you don't find it likely that Sargares would have abilities to either command time ore Resist time even though he is there Champion of the Race, I find it very likely that he has. Who knows what he encountered during that time, which may have been millinia, that he fought Daemons from the twisted Nether. And no he wouldn't that isn't in his Character to do so, he wants to see the native races die screaming fighting for there life's against a vastly superior Foe, it's the same question can be asked about Aman'Thul if but a fraction of his power is given to Nozmordu, and we know what that guy can do, Then why didn't he simply freeze time when the Titans battled the Old Gods? Simple it isn't in there Character and it would be extremely boring, but do they have the ability to manipulate ore resist time imo yes.


hmm ofcourse not.....he would never bestow powers on a being who could with that power harm titans, and Deathwing i doubt could harm titans, maybe the weaker ones but i can imagine he would be no threat to the true parthanon

well ime not sure, the extent ive actually seen Nozmordu control time is making portals to move through it, as well as being able to relive moments in his life and see into the future and past timelines, but he has no way of freezing enemies in time from what i remember or doing anything offensive with his time powers, wheras kain in this theory would have control over the entire concept, the very fabric of time itself at his finger tips to weave as he pleases.

well greater than Noz, although we dont know the extent of Aman'thuls time powers but it would seem unlikely Aman'thul would be the one specifically to step in and give the dragon a small portion of his power if any of the titans could call upon the force of time, i think it adds up fairly well that he is the only one to have powers over time itself, maybe he protects all the titans in the warcraft universe since he is a far reaching entity. The wizards, ime not sure of their direct powers, they have slow but its unkown if its a time spell, it could just as equelly be a spell that increases their weight or exausts their legs to slow them down, like the curse of exaustion, not neccerily time powers, the time powers that i rememebr being menstioned are the ones that involve moving through time, but ime not sure its documented how many actually can do this ,and how difficult it is to do. perhaps he may have some, but certainly none of them imo woudl have it at concept level as theory kain and why would Sargerus need protection against time, there is nothing to my knowledge that would make Sargerus fearful anyway, his destructive power alone seems to wipe planets or whole races away, scattering them, and as i thought of earlier, perhaps Aman'Thul is protecting his people. Also remember that Sargerus loses a fair amount of power with the lost of half of his sword, perhaps Time was an aspect of the good power since it doesnt seem to most destructive of forces like dark magic and the like.

But he doesnt watch them die fighting and screaming, he ends up possessing a child and does a lot of passive acts it seems like possession, he was not the most brutal of beings when taking on Azeroth, he even allowed himself to be destroyed to possess, it seems more decisive, also if he had powers like Nozdormu in time, he would know the outcome of his battle and would not do it, so he if he has any time powers at all, is not even on the level on Nozdormu, let alone other Titans.

well yes perhaps about Aman'Thul and the old gods but i could say perhaps they have resistence to time powers, they were incredibly powerful beings, perhaps Aman'thul did not fight this battle, i dont remember the specifics but doesnt it just say "Titans" perhaps Aman'thul does not fight for he is their leader and sends his warrios/champions like Sargerus into the battle ,but true it would be boring if he just froze them all

Originally posted by Utrigita
He ripped the scales from the body of the dragon with telekinese. It is true that sometimes a dispel field is all that takes ore sometimes it requires vastly more, How many lairs of protection didn't protect Dalaran and what good it did them against the Paramount Spell From Archimonde. The ways to stop a Paramount spell may be simple in some scenarios and extremely difficult in other scenarios. Again the Dalaran spell is a excellent Example maybe all it toke was to break the runes before Archimonde finished them but then you would have to worry about Archimonde and dispel Magic doesn't exactly fall within Kains list of abilities does it???

Also I find it fair to assume the more powerful the Eredar is the more difficult it is to counter the spell.

Should I mention the Paramount Spell that Archimonde was about to use on the World Tree, whats stopping Sargares from draining that energy???

no he cannot dispel, his shield can reflect spells/magic already cast but he has no dispelling, but if it was as easy as messing up scritures carved in sand ime not so sure he would need it for it took a long time for Archimonde to do that it seems.

what was the paramount spell, ive never heard of Archimonde about to do a spell on the tree, but what energy would be drained? Kain has control over the concept of energy, he would likely just stop him doing it, he would have greater control over it, since its a concept he has at his whim. Also drainging a source of infnite energy will not really help sargerus who probably has enough energy anyway to do any powers he can do

Lady Fox
The paramount spell would have granted Archimonde the tree's full power.

Burning thought
so he would of gained great magical energies, he would of become incredibly powerful

Lady Fox
Eternal magic, I believe. If he would have succeeded, I would rate him at an easy titan level.

Burning thought
hmm indeed possibly

Lady Fox
Good thing that the Well of Eternity was destroyed. Whoever absorbing that would have been nasty.

Burning thought
hell yes, if Sargerus or Kiljeaden took the power of that into them, ime sure they would become as close to omnipotent as you could get in the warcraft world, they would break the parthanon imo, maybe even Aman'Thul would have a fight on his hands, especially if Kiljaeden used all his cunning, or Sargerus his power

Lady Fox
Seriously, if Kil'Jaeden or Sargeras absorbed the Well of Eternity, the pantheon would be screwed badly stick out tongue

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
hmm ofcourse not.....he would never bestow powers on a being who could with that power harm titans, and Deathwing i doubt could harm titans, maybe the weaker ones but i can imagine he would be no threat to the true parthanon

If the Titans have no ability over time ore resistance to it then yes Deathwing would most likely had been capable of killing a Titan imo. If you are attacked by a weapon of which you have no defense against you tend to die.

Originally posted by Burning thought
well ime not sure, the extent ive actually seen Nozmordu control time is making portals to move through it, as well as being able to relive moments in his life and see into the future and past timelines, but he has no way of freezing enemies in time from what i remember or doing anything offensive with his time powers, wheras kain in this theory would have control over the entire concept, the very fabric of time itself at his finger tips to weave as he pleases.

Well Nozmordu breath is capable of aging any being with 1/4 of there entire lifespan... (handbook) Also it says that he is capable of replaying any confrontation that didn't worked out the way he wanted to, so that the result would be something he wanted, and that is but a fraction of Aman'Thuls power.

Originally posted by Burning thought
well greater than Noz, although we dont know the extent of Aman'thuls time powers but it would seem unlikely Aman'thul would be the one specifically to step in and give the dragon a small portion of his power if any of the titans could call upon the force of time, i think it adds up fairly well that he is the only one to have powers over time itself, maybe he protects all the titans in the warcraft universe since he is a far reaching entity.

Why did Norgannon give the power of spells and magic to Malygos, because as a fact we know that all Titans can call apon it imo it is simply his area of expetice ore the area of which he has the most knowlegde but that doesn't in any way mean that the other forces that the other titans represent is restricted to them only.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The wizards, ime not sure of their direct powers, they have slow but its unkown if its a time spell, it could just as equelly be a spell that increases their weight or exausts their legs to slow them down, like the curse of exaustion, not neccerily time powers, the time powers that i rememebr being menstioned are the ones that involve moving through time, but ime not sure its documented how many actually can do this ,and how difficult it is to do.

Well I thought it was because you seems to slow the time down around the area of you foe. http://www.wowwiki.com/Slow_%28Mage_spell%29
Time based attack.

Originally posted by Burning thought
perhaps he may have some, but certainly none of them imo woudl have it at concept level as theory kain and why would Sargerus need protection against time, there is nothing to my knowledge that would make Sargerus fearful anyway, his destructive power alone seems to wipe planets or whole races away, scattering them, and as i thought of earlier, perhaps Aman'Thul is protecting his people. Also remember that Sargerus loses a fair amount of power with the lost of half of his sword, perhaps Time was an aspect of the good power since it doesnt seem to most destructive of forces like dark magic and the like.

Not even Aman'Thul? Sargares would need protection against time because it along with his passage from world to world is imo the only thing that could hurt him ore kill him. Perhaps Aman'Thul is but then it seems a bit strange to give power over time which the titans would have no defense against to another being where we know one of those aspects became corrupted. Agreed though I'm not entirely sure that Sargares lost some of his power when the sword broke, The Sword lost it's powers but I see nowhere that Sargares should have lost some.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But he doesnt watch them die fighting and screaming, he ends up possessing a child and does a lot of passive acts it seems like possession, he was not the most brutal of beings when taking on Azeroth, he even allowed himself to be destroyed to possess, it seems more decisive, also if he had powers like Nozdormu in time, he would know the outcome of his battle and would not do it, so he if he has any time powers at all, is not even on the level on Nozdormu, let alone other Titans.

Because the first approache didn't really had the desired effect. Hence a more cunning plan was created, But generally the Legion have always prefered to use numbers to defeat there opponents not regular tactic and strategi as we later see when they are recrutting the orcs to basically rent Azeroth helpless before them.

Originally posted by Burning thought
well yes perhaps about Aman'Thul and the old gods but i could say perhaps they have resistence to time powers, they were incredibly powerful beings, perhaps Aman'thul did not fight this battle, i dont remember the specifics but doesnt it just say "Titans" perhaps Aman'thul does not fight for he is their leader and sends his warrios/champions like Sargerus into the battle ,but true it would be boring if he just froze them all

It would indeed be boring, and I think it clearly said the Pantheon but maybe they where just acting as generals :srug:

Originally posted by Burning thought
no he cannot dispel, his shield can reflect spells/magic already cast but he has no dispelling, but if it was as easy as messing up scritures carved in sand ime not so sure he would need it for it took a long time for Archimonde to do that it seems.

Ore you saying that Archimonde cannot dispel??? He was certainly taking his time, you also see him doing every movement very slowly, he is really taking his time as if he is hoping the mages will discover him and attack him. And I was only speculating on how to stop the Paramount spell wink maybe a little line extra ore something would have messed it up.

Originally posted by Burning thought
what was the paramount spell, ive never heard of Archimonde about to do a spell on the tree, but what energy would be drained? Kain has control over the concept of energy, he would likely just stop him doing it, he would have greater control over it, since its a concept he has at his whim. Also drainging a source of infnite energy will not really help sargerus who probably has enough energy anyway to do any powers he can do

Consumption of the Sun smile page 122 in the Manual of Monsters

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
If the Titans have no ability over time ore resistance to it then yes Deathwing would most likely had been capable of killing a Titan imo. If you are attacked by a weapon of which you have no defense against you tend to die.



Well Nozmordu breath is capable of aging any being with 1/4 of there entire lifespan... (handbook) Also it says that he is capable of replaying any confrontation that didn't worked out the way he wanted to, so that the result would be something he wanted, and that is but a fraction of Aman'Thuls power.



Why did Norgannon give the power of spells and magic to Malygos, because as a fact we know that all Titans can call apon it imo it is simply his area of expetice ore the area of which he has the most knowlegde but that doesn't in any way mean that the other forces that the other titans represent is restricted to them only.



Well I thought it was because you seems to slow the time down around the area of you foe. http://www.wowwiki.com/Slow_%28Mage_spell%29
Time based attack.



Not even Aman'Thul? Sargares would need protection against time because it along with his passage from world to world is imo the only thing that could hurt him ore kill him. Perhaps Aman'Thul is but then it seems a bit strange to give power over time which the titans would have no defense against to another being where we know one of those aspects became corrupted. Agreed though I'm not entirely sure that Sargares lost some of his power when the sword broke, The Sword lost it's powers but I see nowhere that Sargares should have lost some.



Because the first approache didn't really had the desired effect. Hence a more cunning plan was created, But generally the Legion have always prefered to use numbers to defeat there opponents not regular tactic and strategi as we later see when they are recrutting the orcs to basically rent Azeroth helpless before them.



It would indeed be boring, and I think it clearly said the Pantheon but maybe they where just acting as generals :srug:



Ore you saying that Archimonde cannot dispel??? He was certainly taking his time, you also see him doing every movement very slowly, he is really taking his time as if he is hoping the mages will discover him and attack him. And I was only speculating on how to stop the Paramount spell wink maybe a little line extra ore something would have messed it up.



Consumption of the Sun smile page 122 in the Manual of Monsters

but technically time is not a weapon

perhaps so, and Noz only got a fraction as you said, so its not neccerily dangerous to Aman'thul who could likely take htat power away, not to mension if Nozmordu suddenly went renegade whats he going to do to the titans, he doesnt know where they are or anything and Aman'thul wouldnt let him even if he did find titans, he would end up drained back of his power

but thats the thing we know the other titnas can call upon magic, magic itself can take many forms wheras control over time as we agreed is a very delecate power that is not usually connected with other fields wheras magic can be considered part of most fields

hmm fair enough

why would Aman'thul have it at concept level?, Sargerus with the full sword is usually so much more powerful, it may have held a lot of his power, but ime not sure if he had time powers he was still corrupted, maybe his corruption is a reason his time powers may go

i was saying Kain has not got dispel, he just has a shield he can put up that can protect him and reflect but yes he was taking his time

Chittering death is the name of it isnt it? but is that the one he was going to do on the tree, why would consuming the planet give him its power?

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
but technically time is not a weapon

In Nozmordues case it certainly is smile

perhaps so, and Noz only got a fraction as you said, so its not neccerily dangerous to Aman'thul who could likely take htat power away, not to mension if Nozmordu suddenly went renegade whats he going to do to the titans, he doesnt know where they are or anything and Aman'thul wouldnt let him even if he did find titans, he would end up drained back of his power

Now that would actually prove quiet interesting would Nozmordu be capable of using his omnipresence and time reverse to defeat Aman'Thul... I have no idea what would happen if these two time wielding beings would run into each other, maybe Aman'Thul can override Nozmordu but Nozmordu would already know thats that is a possibility and so on and on...............

but thats the thing we know the other titnas can call upon magic, magic itself can take many forms wheras control over time as we agreed is a very delecate power that is not usually connected with other fields wheras magic can be considered part of most fields

Well I have just showed you a link that shows that a normal player from WoW can manipulate time, do you find it unlikely that the titans either have resistance ore time manipulation powers just like the mages.

hmm fair enough

I wasn't sure either.

why would Aman'thul have it at concept level?, Sargerus with the full sword is usually so much more powerful, it may have held a lot of his power, but ime not sure if he had time powers he was still corrupted, maybe his corruption is a reason his time powers may go

Not at a concept level but represent the Concept just like the Aspects represent different aspects of the titans. But that doesn't mean that the Dragons is limited to that area, neither is the Titans but they are certainly more skilled within certain field, Where do you have that information from regarding his sword??? Maybe he hadn't but he would still be resistant to time attacks wink (will try and find out what Time attack is based on in Warcraft, though I think it is magical thus high protection against Magic, high protection against Time attacks)

i was saying Kain has not got dispel, he just has a shield he can put up that can protect him and reflect but yes he was taking his time

Okay, What ammount of punishment can this shield take??? The amount of wrath that would be unleashed by a Titan??? Archimonde certainly was, that lazy bastard wink

Chittering death is the name of it isnt it? but is that the one he was going to do on the tree, why would consuming the planet give him its power?

Chittering death was a example of another Paramount spell, Consumption of Sun is described a bit further down. don't you have the Handbook???

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
In Nozmordues case it certainly is smile



Now that would actually prove quiet interesting would Nozmordu be capable of using his omnipresence and time reverse to defeat Aman'Thul... I have no idea what would happen if these two time wielding beings would run into each other, maybe Aman'Thul can override Nozmordu but Nozmordu would already know thats that is a possibility and so on and on...............



Well I have just showed you a link that shows that a normal player from WoW can manipulate time, do you find it unlikely that the titans either have resistance ore time manipulation powers just like the mages.



I wasn't sure either.



Not at a concept level but represent the Concept just like the Aspects represent different aspects of the titans. But that doesn't mean that the Dragons is limited to that area, neither is the Titans but they are certainly more skilled within certain field, Where do you have that information from regarding his sword??? Maybe he hadn't but he would still be resistant to time attacks wink (will try and find out what Time attack is based on in Warcraft, though I think it is magical thus high protection against Magic, high protection against Time attacks)



Okay, What ammount of punishment can this shield take??? The amount of wrath that would be unleashed by a Titan??? Archimonde certainly was, that lazy bastard wink



Chittering death was a example of another Paramount spell, Consumption of Sun is described a bit further down. don't you have the Handbook???

but how? what would he use, especially on Titnas who are if ime not mistaken immortal, as you said he can reduce age but there are not many time powers Nozmordu has displayed from what i know anyway

maybe, since Aman'thul gave Noz his power i can imagine Aman'thul could take it away imo, or he could simply block off portions of time, time can go incredibly deep, but its only speculation, we dont really knwo the full extent of Aman'thuls power

hmm i suppose its likely, on a level like mages, perhaps above, their status as Titans however still does not automatically grant them powers lesser races have because those mages have likely learnt a great deal, perhaps Titans can all use minor time powers.

well yeh, its not the sort of thing one would know off the top of their head thats for sure, that a slow spell is time based

perhaps he represents the concept, who knows he seems to be a very mysterious Titan, i knew that the sword completed was the ultimate weapon or something or other or the most pwoerful weapon but it was only speculation that it infulenced Sargs natural powers.

the shields only drawback is it has a limited time span but other than that, its like a paladins divine shield, invulerable, it seems to be powered from Kains infnite magic source but kain could recast the shield, i dont think it has any cooldown.

ah yes sorry, it is, i just misread it, i thought it was describing chittering death but it went onto a diffrent spell name and right you are "sun consumption" and it does say how Archimonde would become supreme, he would indeed be too powerful for the parthanon if he could consume the sun itself

Lady Fox
Utrigita, you got the book.
Does Sargeras know 'wish'?

Utrigita
Not on a first glance no.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
but how? what would he use, especially on Titnas who are if ime not mistaken immortal, as you said he can reduce age but there are not many time powers Nozmordu has displayed from what i know anyway

How it is a attack? You Brought up a attack for Kain with the time powers and I also wanted to show that time indeed can be killing, Most of his powers is described in the handbook.

maybe, since Aman'thul gave Noz his power i can imagine Aman'thul could take it away imo, or he could simply block off portions of time, time can go incredibly deep, but its only speculation, we dont really knwo the full extent of Aman'thuls power

No we doesn't but we are always allowed to speculate smile

hmm i suppose its likely, on a level like mages, perhaps above, their status as Titans however still does not automatically grant them powers lesser races have because those mages have likely learnt a great deal, perhaps Titans can all use minor time powers.

No it doesn't but do they have access to magic, yes and in the combat section concerning Sargares it is said that the first thing he does when entering Combat is to cast slow and other attacks that will irritate the opponent.

well yeh, its not the sort of thing one would know off the top of their head thats for sure, that a slow spell is time based

But I know now wink

perhaps he represents the concept, who knows he seems to be a very mysterious Titan, i knew that the sword completed was the ultimate weapon or something or other or the most pwoerful weapon but it was only speculation that it infulenced Sargs natural powers.

That was my original statement that they each represented a Concept wasn't it wink The Ultimate Weapon no doubt about it, but that it was supposed to influence Sargares powers... I haven't seen that anywhere.

the shields only drawback is it has a limited time span but other than that, its like a paladins divine shield, invulerable, it seems to be powered from Kains infnite magic source but kain could recast the shield, i dont think it has any cooldown.

But a silence Spell would most likely put a stop to that, also Sargares has Drain Magic he is limitless but so is Sargares hunger for Magic it would be interesting to see how will drop first...

ah yes sorry, it is, i just misread it, i thought it was describing chittering death but it went onto a diffrent spell name and right you are "sun consumption" and it does say how Archimonde would become supreme, he would indeed be too powerful for the parthanon if he could consume the sun itself

It's Okay, and I suppose you mean the sunwell and not the Sun itself.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
How it is a attack? You Brought up a attack for Kain with the time powers and I also wanted to show that time indeed can be killing, Most of his powers is described in the handbook.



No we doesn't but we are always allowed to speculate smile



No it doesn't but do they have access to magic, yes and in the combat section concerning Sargares it is said that the first thing he does when entering Combat is to cast slow and other attacks that will irritate the opponent.



But I know now wink



That was my original statement that they each represented a Concept wasn't it wink The Ultimate Weapon no doubt about it, but that it was supposed to influence Sargares powers... I haven't seen that anywhere.



But a silence Spell would most likely put a stop to that, also Sargares has Drain Magic he is limitless but so is Sargares hunger for Magic it would be interesting to see how will drop first...



It's Okay, and I suppose you mean the sunwell and not the Sun itself.


Kain has the concept at his disposal, he could essentially do anything with power over the concept itself, if you can imagine a a time attack, in the theory kain with power over the concept could do it, however Nozmordu afaik has no such powers for example completly freezing a being in time or deleting time corridors

yes, speculation is good sometimes and perhaps viable as long as the person knows its speculation, because VS matches themselves are speculation

yes i always wonder, where do they get these combat pieces from? i mean it says Aman'thul would perhaps fly while casting magic and then summon other Titans, is this documented in RPG?

hmm ime not sure, how does silence work? i mean going by the name it stops people from speaking but kain gestures to use the shield, ime not sure silence would work and yes it would be interesting to see who would stop first

yes the sun itself, i am assuming when it says "sun consumption" it means the power can consume the sun?, thats the spell isnt it, he would need to consume the magic of the well to gain this power as it says in the book but the spell "consumption of the sun" would be devasating

also whats this wish thing lady? you menstioned

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain has the concept at his disposal, he could essentially do anything with power over the concept itself, if you can imagine a a time attack, in the theory kain with power over the concept could do it, however Nozmordu afaik has no such powers for example completly freezing a being in time or deleting time corridors

And Kain in theory would have that even though nothing suggest that it would ever be possible???

yes, speculation is good sometimes and perhaps viable as long as the person knows its speculation, because VS matches themselves are speculation

Yes it is but based on facts and feats and the compared, if Vs matches that is speculation come to be based on speculation well...

yes i always wonder, where do they get these combat pieces from? i mean it says Aman'thul would perhaps fly while casting magic and then summon other Titans, is this documented in RPG?

It is mentioned in case some epic (and incredible stupid) heroes would choose to seek him out and fight him then the Gamesmaster is supposed to use the information on Aman'Thul to his advances against the Heroes.

hmm ime not sure, how does silence work? i mean going by the name it stops people from speaking but kain gestures to use the shield, ime not sure silence would work and yes it would be interesting to see who would stop first

Well you should know very well since it was you who taught be about it in Illidan vs Cenarius. Silence is a spell that prevents all spells from being casted. Yes it would a infinite reserve and a infinite appetite

yes the sun itself, i am assuming when it says "sun consumption" it means the power can consume the sun?, thats the spell isnt it, he would need to consume the magic of the well to gain this power as it says in the book but the spell "consumption of the sun" would be devasating

No it is just a name Burning Thought nothing more, and the book states that the spell only requires a suitable supply of energy a supply that Kain is about to Launce straight into Sargares face.

also whats this wish thing lady? you menstioned

I'm not entirely sure but I have a theory but since I'm not sure I will let her answer the question herself.

btw these books are really good how many have you read so far???

Utrigita
Update the arcane Magic that exist in Azeroth is placed there by the Titans.

Darth Extecute
http://www.wowwiki.com/Wish

Utrigita
Thanks Darth Extecute I think I will just look through his powerset again wink because I seems to remember Kil'Jaeden having it...

Lady Fox
When Kain used these concepts, was it a wave of a hand or a ritual that made the actual ability?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
And Kain in theory would have that even though nothing suggest that it would ever be possible???



Yes it is but based on facts and feats and the compared, if Vs matches that is speculation come to be based on speculation well...



It is mentioned in case some epic (and incredible stupid) heroes would choose to seek him out and fight him then the Gamesmaster is supposed to use the information on Aman'Thul to his advances against the Heroes.



Well you should know very well since it was you who taught be about it in Illidan vs Cenarius. Silence is a spell that prevents all spells from being casted. Yes it would a infinite reserve and a infinite appetite



No it is just a name Burning Thought nothing more, and the book states that the spell only requires a suitable supply of energy a supply that Kain is about to Launce straight into Sargares face.



I'm not entirely sure but I have a theory but since I'm not sure I will let her answer the question herself.

btw these books are really good how many have you read so far???

its a theory based around what i described in forums (cant post links to forums ofc) but basically its to do with the fact that the pillars are the representations of the concept itself, now kain with all the concept emblems and without having to share the power the balance guardian usually links to other guardians to do with the pillars (since their dead) kain would not only gain the full power of the pillars that they had but he also has the emblems to all the concepts that hold the foundations of said powers, it would indeed from that theory be possible that he has power over the concepts, combine that with infnite magical energies and he can do what he likes using the emblems

(ill pm you the websites section, it may explain more things about the theory)

heroes in the RPG go to fight titans? lol, i wonder if anyone seriously playing ever wins...

hmm indeed i should but ive forgotten the specifics of the spell, since most of the spells are difficult to understand the basis behind them, i use the names for example silence sounds like you are stopping them speaking, so in a real battle those who do not need to speak to cast any spells are likely to still be able to, but who knows, the spell does indeed stop mages useing spells

just a name? how can we be sure Archimonde could not consume the sun itself, he may be able to after swallowing the incredible power of the well, it does say he would become supreme, i think an Eredar should definatley be the one who takes power like that, they are wicked but incredibly powerful already and probably have good imaginations

the books? hmm, ive read through a lot of the monsters manuel so far

Originally posted by Lady Fox
When Kain used these concepts, was it a wave of a hand or a ritual that made the actual ability?

the power of the reaver it comes from, it usually flashes or something when he uses the power of the reaver, he doesnt really wave it unless its a projectile attack

Lady Fox
Wait.... what? You need to rephrase I'm afraid.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
Wait.... what? You need to rephrase I'm afraid.

sorry, these concepts come through his sword the reaver, when he uses them, he thinks and then the reaver flashes the color of the emblem (diffrent colors for each concept) and powers can be used

also that wish thing sounds interesting, if Sargerus had that it could certainly be an interesting power

Lady Fox
What concept powers has he formerly used, what did he do and which different concepts are there?

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
its a theory based around what i described in forums (cant post links to forums ofc) but basically its to do with the fact that the pillars are the representations of the concept itself, now kain with all the concept emblems and without having to share the power the balance guardian usually links to other guardians to do with the pillars (since their dead) kain would not only gain the full power of the pillars that they had but he also has the emblems to all the concepts that hold the foundations of said powers, it would indeed from that theory be possible that he has power over the concepts, combine that with infnite magical energies and he can do what he likes using the emblems

And this equals him being capable of erasing timelines, the most powerful I can remember being said about Morbius was that he was omniscient and capable of traveling through time, but of cause theory is hard to argue against.

(ill pm you the websites section, it may explain more things about the theory)

Cool.

heroes in the RPG go to fight titans? lol, i wonder if anyone seriously playing ever wins...

I seriously doubt that they do, but I think that is the idea... in some sick humor sort of way...

hmm indeed i should but ive forgotten the specifics of the spell, since most of the spells are difficult to understand the basis behind them, i use the names for example silence sounds like you are stopping them speaking, so in a real battle those who do not need to speak to cast any spells are likely to still be able to, but who knows, the spell does indeed stop mages useing spells

It does completely so Sargares should be capable of casting it on Kain even though his shield is up it is still stopping Kain from summoning a new one.

just a name? how can we be sure Archimonde could not consume the sun itself, he may be able to after swallowing the incredible power of the well, it does say he would become supreme, i think an Eredar should definatley be the one who takes power like that, they are wicked but incredibly powerful already and probably have good imaginations

Yes just a name. We doesn't know but imho the Well is much more interesting to devoure then the Sun would ever be for a Eredar. Agreed with all parts of the latter of you post, have you had a chance to see what level of sorcerer Kil'Jaeden is evil face

the books? hmm, ive read through a lot of the monsters manuel so far

The handbooks embarrasment

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
What concept powers has he formerly used, what did he do and which different concepts are there?

None really which is why we are using the theory a little info on the Pillars (concept)

Mind - The Mind Guardian has the powers of telekinesis and telepathy, the latter of which also allows the Guardian to create extremely realistic illusions.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
An unnamed guardian was killed by Vorador in Blood Omen.
Nupraptor the Mentalist appeared in Blood Omen.

Conflict - The Conflict Guardian's powers are vaguely defined in the games, but they seem to have the power to infuse others with rage.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
Malek the Sarafan appeared in Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 2.
Nature - The Nature Guardian has the power to control nature and reshape it from one form to another.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
An unnamed guardian was killed by Vorador in Blood Omen.
Bane the Druid appeared in Blood Omen.

Dimension - The Dimension Guardian has the power to see into, enter and draw things from alternate dimensions.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
An unnamed guardian was killed by Vorador in Blood Omen.
Azimuth the Planer appeared in Blood Omen.

Energy - The Energy Guardian has the power to control infinite amounts of energy, though this ability can be as dangerous to the Guardian as it can be to others.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
An unnamed guardian was killed by Vorador in Blood Omen.
Dejoule the Energist appeared in Blood Omen.

States - The States Guardian's powers are vaguely defined in the games, but they seem to have the power to transfigure matter, giving the Guardian unparalleled skill in alchemy.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
An unnamed guardian was killed by Vorador in Blood Omen.
Anacrothe the Alchemist appeared in Blood Omen.

Time - The Time Guardian has the power to manipulate the flow of time, this also gives the guardian near-omniscience as they can see the past, present and future.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
Moebius the Timestreamer appeared in Blood Omen, Soul Reaver 1 & 2 and Defiance.

Death - The Death Guardian has power over death and can suspend the soul of an individual in a physical form beyond death.
The original vampire guardian's ghost appeared in Defiance.
Mortanius the Necromancer appeared in Blood Omen and Defiance.

Balance - The Balance Guardian has the power of boundless, incorruptible magic. The Guaridan also binds all of the other Guardians to the Pillars and to one another.
An unnamed guardian was killed by Vorador in Blood Omen.
Ariel appeared in Blood Omen, Soul Reaver 1 & 2 and Defiance.
Kain was destined to take Ariel's place but has refused to submit to that fate. He later became the Scion of Balance.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
What concept powers has he formerly used, what did he do and which different concepts are there?

he has used the concepts through a limited power conduit, the blood reaver not the soul reaver (which has a weaker power source, blood not souls) and has gained effects such as slowing time to a crawl, controlling energy such as lightning and using the concept of dimension to travel through dimensions as well as limited reality warping such as making enemies feel the same pains as the one kain hits, this is in gameplay however, where the abilites are canon but are restricted like Warcraft 3 spells and WoW by gameplay balance (or in WoW case, a try at balance wink )

other beings using the same perhaps lesser power than kain in canon who were mere mortals and not really supposed to have power from the pillars (since the pillars were designed for vampires and so imo ofc just speculation but i feel logical that it woudl be stronger for vampires) but they could change continents with their magic, teleport others through dimensions, be almost omnicient like Nozmordu with time and the one who used the concept of energy could control limitless amounts, there were the spirit and states concepts as well, but here, a wiki arcticle i know but there are not many sites that can explain their powers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_of_Nine

lol.....okie ignore this Wiki thing, Utriga has beaten me to it

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
also that wish thing sounds interesting, if Sargerus had that it could certainly be an interesting power

it must certainly would, I couldn't find it though the skills and abilities I looked through was instant, I doesn't know if it could be placed under spells.

Lady Fox
Being designed for vampires does not make it stronger for vampires. It makes it weaker for the others wink

I will look that link up smile

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
And this equals him being capable of erasing timelines, the most powerful I can remember being said about Morbius was that he was omniscient and capable of traveling through time, but of cause theory is hard to argue against.



Cool.



I seriously doubt that they do, but I think that is the idea... in some sick humor sort of way...



It does completely so Sargares should be capable of casting it on Kain even though his shield is up it is still stopping Kain from summoning a new one.



Yes just a name. We doesn't know but imho the Well is much more interesting to devoure then the Sun would ever be for a Eredar. Agreed with all parts of the latter of you post, have you had a chance to see what level of sorcerer Kil'Jaeden is evil face



The handbooks embarrasment


well yes, Moebius ofc is a human not really supposed to have power over pillars designed by vampires, and kain is the scion desitined to bring the pillars back and keep nosgoth alive so i simply in theory belive he could logically have more power than moebius, not to menstion moebius even then had to gain his power from a balance guardian like kain is through their link, yet kain would not only have the pillar emblem giving him the power but also the full power of energy that would usually go to a time guardian and all the others..yet ofc their dead

hmm perhaps but Silence is a spell, so if the shield was up, the shield would reflect the spell and sargerus would silence himslef, the shield can reflect spells

yes i can imagine ,but i dont know why i dont like Killy, i prefer archimonde, something about a blue guy in gold makes me think hes cooler "shrug" lol

Originally posted by Lady Fox
Being designed for vampires does not make it stronger for vampires. It makes it weaker for the others wink

I will look that link up smile

same sort of thing, what i was saying moebius is human, but you know what i mean i think

Lady Fox
Sargeras should have wish to a certain extent at least. He did after all grant Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden powers.

I know Khaz'goroth got wish to an extremely large extent, but not sure about the other titans.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_of_Nine

lol.....okie ignore this Wiki thing, Utriga has beaten me to it

whistling

Lady Fox
I am just curious. If Kain had the concepts on his side, how did he fail?

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
well yes, Moebius ofc is a human not really supposed to have power over pillars designed by vampires, and kain is the scion desitined to bring the pillars back and keep nosgoth alive so i simply in theory belive he could logically have more power than moebius, not to menstion moebius even then had to gain his power from a balance guardian like kain is through their link, yet kain would not only have the pillar emblem giving him the power but also the full power of energy that would usually go to a time guardian and all the others..yet ofc their dead

So it's kind of a infinity Gauntlet Kain has gathered??? And I know what Kain is destined to do, but imo you are stretching it a bit Burning Thought, by claiming that Kain can Erase Timelines. Such a thing has to my knowlegde never even been momentarrely mentioned in the Game ore anywhere els, for that matter...

hmm perhaps but Silence is a spell, so if the shield was up, the shield would reflect the spell and sargerus would silence himslef, the shield can reflect spells

I don't quiet think Silence work that way Burning Thought, but will check it

yes i can imagine ,but i dont know why i dont like Killy, i prefer archimonde, something about a blue guy in gold makes me think hes cooler "shrug" lol

Cooler maybe more evil no

Lady Fox
Silence is not a spell. It is an abnormal sound that locks the enchanted 'paths' of an humanoid, preventing the usage of all supernatural actions.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Lady Fox
I am just curious. If Kain had the concepts on his side, how did he fail?

when did he fail? he won

Originally posted by Utrigita
So it's kind of a infinity Gauntlet Kain has gathered??? And I know what Kain is destined to do, but imo you are stretching it a bit Burning Thought, by claiming that Kain can Erase Timelines. Such a thing has to my knowlegde never even been momentarrely mentioned in the Game ore anywhere els, for that matter...



I don't quiet think Silence work that way Burning Thought, but will check it



Cooler maybe more evil no

1. not quite infnity gauntlet, when completed that thing can do anything and everything, well technically, perhaps i am stretching it, its only a theory, cant be completly proven wrong in a theory i mean its technically possible if with all this unlimited magic, greater than all these human guardians who are not even supposed to have this power and they were fairly powerful, then combine that with the fact hes not sharing any power, coz there are no guardians, hes empowered

hmm maybe

more evil? probalbly not but cooler big grin love blue man

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
I am just curious. If Kain had the concepts on his side, how did he fail?

This is theory Kain there is a distinct difference between Scion Kain and Scion Theory Kain.

Lady Fox
Originally posted by Burning thought
when did he fail? he won

Ah, right. It was Raziel that had the saddening fate.

Burning thought
the kain at the end of Defiance is the one who supposedly through this theory would have this power at his disposal and yes it was Raziel who had the sorry fate, kain gained more power through his friend becoming the soul in the reaver tho which ime sure Raziel is happy about big grin stick out tongue

Lady Fox
In case someone missed it.

Originally posted by Lady Fox
Silence is not a spell. It is an abnormal sound that locks the enchanted 'paths' of an humanoid, preventing the usage of all supernatural actions.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
when did he fail? he won

I think she perhaps is thinking of the Kain Raziel incident.

1. not quite infnity gauntlet, when completed that thing can do anything and everything, well technically, perhaps i am stretching it, its only a theory, cant be completly proven wrong in a theory i mean its technically possible if with all this unlimited magic, greater than all these human guardians who are not even supposed to have this power and they were fairly powerful, then combine that with the fact hes not sharing any power, coz there are no guardians, hes empowered

Yes it's a theory hence I cannot prove you wrong I can only try and appeal to you "logical" senses wink. Fairly powerful the wielder of the mind gem was posessed by a some of those that the vampires kicked out from the Nosgoth Plan of Existance. He isn't sharing any power that is correct but again theory.

hmm maybe

Still checking...

more evil? probalbly not but cooler big grin love blue man

laughing out loud

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
In case someone missed it.

Thanks Lady Fox big grin

Lady Fox
Originally posted by Utrigita
Thanks Lady Fox big grin

You can see it being used in 'Sunwell Triology' smile

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
You can see it being used in 'Sunwell Triology' smile

I cannot really "see" it wink but I can read about it which I will do right now, it seems I need to refresh my memory stick out tongue

Lady Fox
You can SEE Sylvanas use it wink

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
You can SEE Sylvanas use it wink

I'm not sure I understand.... confused on the front page???

Lady Fox
You see Sylvanas use the silence ability yes

Against the Felhunter, Dar'Khan and the Gargoyle.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
You see Sylvanas use the silence ability yes

Against the Felhunter, Dar'Khan and the Gargoyle.

Are we talking about the same thing here??? There was no illustrations in the Books I borrowed about the sunwell Trilogy...

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
I think she perhaps is thinking of the Kain Raziel incident.



Yes it's a theory hence I cannot prove you wrong I can only try and appeal to you "logical" senses wink. Fairly powerful the wielder of the mind gem was posessed by a some of those that the vampires kicked out from the Nosgoth Plan of Existance. He isn't sharing any power that is correct but again theory.



Still checking...



laughing out loud


hmm

Nuprupter of the mind didnt get possessed, Ariel was murdered and she was his lover and the balance guardian, first in her death they lost all their links to a lot of power, and furthermore Nuprupter let out a mind blast damaging all their minds and making them insane, it can be shown here

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/nupraptor.php?sec=1&type=1

Lady Fox
Originally posted by Utrigita
Are we talking about the same thing here??? There was no illustrations in the Books I borrowed about the sunwell Trilogy...

Uh? Rephrapse please.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
hmm

Nuprupter of the mind didnt get possessed, Ariel was murdered and she was his lover and the balance guardian, first in her death they lost all their links to a lot of power, and furthermore Nuprupter let out a mind blast damaging all their minds and making them insane, it can be shown here

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/nupraptor.php?sec=1&type=1

Then who the hell was that guy that was mindcontrolled in Legacy of Kain Defiance, that Raziel Confronted after having defeated his brother and gaining a powerboost.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
Uh? Rephrapse please.

I borrowed the Books about the Sunwell Trilogy from the Library and later bought them, I saw no Illustrations of any kind in those three books except on the front page.

This is the one you read correct???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft:_The_Sunwell_Trilogy

My bad my bad my bad I got the Sunwell Trilogy mixed up with the war of the ancient sorry sorry...

then Ones I read
http://www.wowwiki.com/War_of_the_Ancients_Trilogy

both concerns the Well but I got the Well of eternity and the Sunwell mixed up because of a discussion I had earlier with Burning Thought

Lady Fox
Originally posted by Utrigita
I borrowed the Books about the Sunwell Trilogy from the Library and later bought them, I saw no Illustrations of any kind in those three books except on the front page.

Let me get you a picture wink

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
Then who the hell was that guy that was mindcontrolled in Legacy of Kain Defiance, that Raziel Confronted after having defeated his brother and gaining a powerboost.

ahh, Mortanius, he is the spirit guardian, hes the one who made kain the vamprie he is with the heart of darkness and started most of the legacy, he has power over souls and such

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
Let me get you a picture wink

See a bit above embarrasment

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
ahh, Mortanius, he is the spirit guardian, hes the one who made kain the vamprie he is with the heart of darkness and started most of the legacy, he has power over souls and such

Okay I'm really great at those characters laughing out loud

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
Okay I'm really great at those characters laughing out loud

laughing out loud yeh, well its understandable, theres tonnes of characters in LOK at diffrent time periods and it can get confusing

Lady Fox
Originally posted by Utrigita
See a bit above embarrasment

Ah, haha. Well, Sylvanas does use silence in the triology in order to defeat the Felhunter, the Gargoyle (She did not need it for the gargoyle) and Dar'Khan (That she failed defeating)

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
laughing out loud yeh, well its understandable, theres tonnes of characters in LOK at diffrent time periods and it can get confusing

I'm tired as hell and thats not exactly helping speeding up the thinking process wink

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm tired as hell and thats not exactly helping speeding up the thinking process helping wink
hehe stick out tongue tired, its only 9:00pm in the UK

Utrigita
Originally posted by Lady Fox
Ah, haha. Well, Sylvanas does use silence in the triology in order to defeat the Felhunter, the Gargoyle (She did not need it for the gargoyle) and Dar'Khan (That she failed defeating)

Okay I haven't read that one.... yet

Lady Fox
It is a quick serie. Only a few hours for all three books, if you pay attention to details stick out tongue

Utrigita
I few reads might be a good idea when I'm fully awake laughing

Burning thought
so what should i read first

lands of conflict
Shadows and light
Ally+horde compendium
or Magic and mayhem?

Lady Fox
Shadow and Light smile

Burning thought
excellent, shadow and light it is, wahts it about overall?

Lady Fox
It has some stories from all over Azeroth. It mentions things from all timelines and an overall good view of the world of Azeroth. It is a good warmer before you start the heavy reading.

Burning thought
klkl thx

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